So, do the short term ones just go back whence they came after 12 months? How is that enforced or detected?
It isn't. Which is why this is a joke.
Nevertheless, gross numbers are - so to speak - grossly misleading. Without measuring those who return after a year or two, we are going to over-estimate migration to the UK.
Well isn't the point of net migration to count people who enter and leave? Why have two sets of figures if that is the case, just count the people who enter each year and the people who leave each year.
If LEAVE can't build a decent polling lead from that migration revelation, then they might as well go home now. This is an enormous gift, neatly tied with golden thread. They must use it.
Vote Leave are squeamish about immigration, Nigel won't be on ITV. He'll lambast Cameron over his "tens of thousands" pledge.
I can't wait.
Cameron's trustworthiness ratings will soon be exploring new depths. He's been found out and wanting. He's Leave's ace recruiter.
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
I'm not sure Farage vs Dave would be too bad for "leave". Nige marmalised Clegg in the EU elections debate. I think Dave would be tougher, but it's home territory for Nigel - And both their ratings are very low right now anyway.
Daves ratings are lower because he's lost the support of the hard right headbanger wing of his party (who in many cases wouldn't have won their seats without him). I'd hazard a guess he's still more popular and reasonable sounding than Farage.
Aww, so as a very Wet Tory member and former 3x Labour voter - I'm destined for outer darkness too for voting Leave?
Sheesh. If only the electorate wanted to vote for your manifesto, they'd be saved.
Hysterical overreaction much. I'm no Europhile but will always support Cameron against the right of the party. I like a winner and the right wing of the Conservative party, besides being nauseating, are about as electable as Jeremy Corbyn and momentum.
Incidentally do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
It would depend on who the Leader was. If it was George Osborne, probably not. If it was Theresa May or Boris Johnson, they probably would.
do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
Against Ed Miliband? Yes!
Not sure they would have done with a leader from the right wing of the party, they really aren't appealing to floating voters, outdated social views and backstabbing are so passe.
As we all know Camerons personal ratings were miles higher than the Conservatives as a party. As a lifelong Tory I despair to see the same stupid mistakes being made, in some cases by the same stupid people.
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
You are now sounding very silly. Drop the subject and move on.
I'm with Charles on this. If I'd said, oh look, another thread of vapid bilge from Mr Meeks, I'd have expected a ban.
Maybe I'll try it on his next EU-related thread and find out.
Don't be daft, mate, Mr Meeks has been called far worse. Mind you, I wouldn't try it on our tyrannically capricious and randomly smiting Gracious Host (even if 70 is the new 40).
I'm not sure Farage vs Dave would be too bad for "leave". Nige marmalised Clegg in the EU elections debate. I think Dave would be tougher, but it's home territory for Nigel - And both their ratings are very low right now anyway.
Daves ratings are lower because he's lost the support of the hard right headbanger wing of his party (who in many cases wouldn't have won their seats without him). I'd hazard a guess he's still more popular and reasonable sounding than Farage.
Aww, so as a very Wet Tory member and former 3x Labour voter - I'm destined for outer darkness too for voting Leave?
Sheesh. If only the electorate wanted to vote for your manifesto, they'd be saved.
Hysterical overreaction much. I'm no Europhile but will always support Cameron against the right of the party. I like a winner and the right wing of the Conservative party, besides being nauseating, are about as electable as Jeremy Corbyn and momentum.
Incidentally do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
It would depend on who the Leader was. If it was George Osborne, probably not. If it was Theresa May or Boris Johnson, they probably would.
Agree with Theresa May, not so sure Boris has an appeal that travels north of Watford
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
When voting in the PB Poster of the Year election closed at bang on 5am Plato had just one more vote than Antifrank and I declare her the winner. The final vote which enabled her to nose ahead was cast at 4.57am.
Well down to her and all the others who took part. Thanks also to those who voted.
Plato is our first female Poster of the Year and is one of a number of women who in the past couple of years have become regular contributors. It used to be the case that almost all those who posted comments were men.
This is the second year in succession that that election has gone down to just one vote. Twelve months ago Richard Nabavi just squeezed ahead of Yellow Submarine by a similar margin.
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
You've said Leave are like the IRA.
Glasshouses. Stones.
I've compared Cameron to Lord Haw Haw.
Only in one of those analogies did Leave kick up a stink.
When voting in the PB Poster of the Year election closed at bang on 5am Plato had just one more vote than Antifrank and I declare her the winner. The final vote which enabled her to nose ahead was cast at 4.57am.
Well down to her and all the others who took part. Thanks also to those who voted.
Plato is our first female Poster of the Year and is one of a number of women who in the past couple of years have become regular contributors. It used to be the case that almost all those who posted comments were men.
This is the second year in succession that that election has gone down to just one vote. Twelve months ago Richard Nabavi just squeezed ahead of Yellow Submarine by a similar margin.
What must be very irksome for Mr Meeks is that he has the power of right on his side, all the best arguments and is convincing everybody - except the voters...
do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
Against Ed Miliband? Yes!
Not sure they would have done with a leader from the right wing of the party, they really aren't appealing to floating voters, outdated social views and backstabbing are so passe.
As we all know Camerons personal ratings were miles higher than the Conservatives as a party. As a lifelong Tory I despair to see the same stupid mistakes being made, in some cases by the same stupid people.
I sometimes get the impression that left wing Tories would rather see Labour in power than a Conservative government led from the right.
The never-ceasing amusement of politics continues. I love the idea from the Leavers (i.e. those who arrogantly dismiss almost every single independent well-informed economic forecast) that the Remain side are arrogant and dismissive.
More seriously, I think that Peter Hargreaves has put his finger on the core of the debate: risk vs security.
Another arrogant and dismissive post from Richard Quis... I mean Nabavi (oops!).
If LEAVE can't build a decent polling lead from that migration revelation, then they might as well go home now. This is an enormous gift, neatly tied with golden thread. They must use it.
The flaky nature of Remain on Immigration is shown here - will discovering its worse make a difference? Who knows.
I expect that in the last weeks of the campaign, Ipsos MORI will treat their figures, weighted by certainty to vote, as the definitive ones, as they do with voting intention. That will probably result in their producing similar numbers to the Online polls.
I think the risk for Remain isn't that their base switches to Leave, it's that a significant number of them stay at home. If it's a choice between voting for short-term economic status quo and very high immigration or controlled borders/sovereignty plus economic risk, many may find it impossible to reconcile.
Those who aren't sure, can't choose, or don't want to choose, usually don't vote.
ITV will put the most prominent Brexit campaigner on TV
Brexit campaign response
IT'S NOT FAIR !!!
Are you suffering from Benjamin Button Syndrome? You appear to experiencing pre-school again.
Now, now. ScottP is the military wing of the Remainers, and he's bloody good at it.
No really, he isn't. Pasting endless propaganda isn't changing anyone's mind - it's not even funny stuff that we could all laugh at.
It's like posting stuff from Eoin.
With the best will in the world, no one on this Board are going to be changing their mind, are they? Scott's ability to wind up the Leavers here with a combination of tweets plus pithy but brutally caustic commentary (as he also does with the SNP) makes him a must-read poster on this site.
Which is why so many lambast him with tedious regularity.
Well we'll agree to disagree here. I don't mind reading Twitter posts if they're amusing or informative - endless childish sledging just makes me scroll passed them. He isn't winding me up as I don't bother reading 99% of them.
Endless sledging some of it childish - that about sums up this site these days, never mind Twitter.
Totally agree, only look in occasionally at the moment. It's like groundhog day - the same dozen anti-EU obsessives posting pretty much the thing 20-30 times a day. Hope things pick up after June 23rd.
do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
Against Ed Miliband? Yes!
Not sure they would have done with a leader from the right wing of the party, they really aren't appealing to floating voters, outdated social views and backstabbing are so passe.
As we all know Camerons personal ratings were miles higher than the Conservatives as a party. As a lifelong Tory I despair to see the same stupid mistakes being made, in some cases by the same stupid people.
I sometimes get the impression that left wing Tories would rather see Labour in power than a Conservative government led from the right.
On immigration, it seems to be a non-story, as predicted:
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. ... The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
I'm not sure Farage vs Dave would be too bad for "leave". Nige marmalised Clegg in the EU elections debate. I think Dave would be tougher, but it's home territory for Nigel - And both their ratings are very low right now anyway.
Daves ratings are lower because he's lost the support of the hard right headbanger wing of his party (who in many cases wouldn't have won their seats without him). I'd hazard a guess he's still more popular and reasonable sounding than Farage.
Aww, so as a very Wet Tory member and former 3x Labour voter - I'm destined for outer darkness too for voting Leave?
Sheesh. If only the electorate wanted to vote for your manifesto, they'd be saved.
Hysterical overreaction much. I'm no Europhile but will always support Cameron against the right of the party. I like a winner and the right wing of the Conservative party, besides being nauseating, are about as electable as Jeremy Corbyn and momentum.
Incidentally do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
You're changing the question. Nil points.
I think midwinter accurately sums up why so much of the left of the Conservative party is instinctively backing Remain.
I see the government charter renewal is no real change at the BBC, luuvies will be happy. It might as well have been written by the BBC, with all the PC more diverse etc etc etc.
No idea what the Guardian and all the BAFTA luuvies were banging on about that the government were going to eviscerate the Beeb.
When voting in the PB Poster of the Year election closed at bang on 5am Plato had just one more vote than Antifrank and I declare her the winner. The final vote which enabled her to nose ahead was cast at 4.57am.
Well down to her and all the others who took part. Thanks also to those who voted.
Plato is our first female Poster of the Year and is one of a number of women who in the past couple of years have become regular contributors. It used to be the case that almost all those who posted comments were men.
This is the second year in succession that that election has gone down to just one vote. Twelve months ago Richard Nabavi just squeezed ahead of Yellow Submarine by a similar margin.
What must be very irksome for Mr Meeks is that he has the power of right on his side, all the best arguments and is convincing everybody - except the voters...
I honestly think that when the dish and the spoon ran off in a celebrity three-some with @AlastairMeeks Super Ego - he's doomed.
@antifrank was sensible, if prone to hypocrisy - his new incarnation is something else. Perhaps he hopes someone will set up a fan club for him.
do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
Against Ed Miliband? Yes!
Not sure they would have done with a leader from the right wing of the party, they really aren't appealing to floating voters, outdated social views and backstabbing are so passe.
As we all know Camerons personal ratings were miles higher than the Conservatives as a party. As a lifelong Tory I despair to see the same stupid mistakes being made, in some cases by the same stupid people.
I sometimes get the impression that left wing Tories would rather see Labour in power than a Conservative government led from the right.
I am very against the right of the party but absolutely would not want labour in power. By the way I am not a left wing Tory, just one that is on the centre right
FYI - If you want to be in the Sky News audience for the Brexit Debates, apply here, you might also get to ask David Cameron and Michael Gove a question.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Very few remainers here are compacent, still less bizarrely. Anecdotally, from weeks of canvassing in my leafy Surrey domain (and remember I lost my seat a weeek ago), I was struck by the number, strength and determination of Leave supporters: one credible but inherently untested explanation for the notable anti Tory swing throughout the county and the SE as a whole, is that it was related directly to the referendum.
On immigration, it seems to be a non-story, as predicted:
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. ... The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
Helpless Cameroon reduced to quoting Guardian: non-shocker.
Chortle.
Well, quoting the Office of National Statistics, actually.
Oh, I forgot - the Office of National Statistics is now part of the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges. My mistake - the list lengthens so fast that it's hard to keep up.
'Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference '
They can do that for a day or so ,but you really believe that the 470,000 figure is not a game changer ?
Remind us what is the number 1 voter concern in virtually every poll for the past couple of years.v
Not really because I am not obsessed with immigration. I do accept that there are parts of the UK under strain but it is the economy and security from within the EU that wins it for me. I would be much more concerned if we had high unemployment but with unemployment at about 5% I do not see it as anything other than leaves own 'project fear'
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Anecdotally, from weeks of canvassing in my leafy Surrey domain (and remember I lost my seat a weeek ago), I was struck by the number, strength and determination of Leave supporters: one credible but inherently untested explanation for the notable anti Tory swing throughout the county and the SE as a whole, is that it was related directly to the referendum.
On immigration, it seems to be a non-story, as predicted:
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. ... The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
Helpless Cameroon reduced to quoting Guardian: non-shocker.
Chortle.
Well, quoting the Office of National Statistics, actually.
Oh, I forgot - the Office of National Statistics is now part of the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges. My mistake - the list lengthens so fast that it's hard to keep up.
If "vapid bilge" is considered by some on PB to be the red line on insults might I suggest that they may have missed some of the more illuminating contributions of SeanT and malcolmg who would think the offending "vapid bilge" to be hugely complimentary.
one credible but inherently untested explanation for the notable anti Tory swing throughout the county and the SE as a whole, is that it was related directly to the referendum.
Oh, absolutely no doubt about that.
However, the effect will dissipate once the referendum is over. It's by far the dominant political issue at the moment, so of course it is having a disproportionate but temporary impact.
On immigration, it seems to be a non-story, as predicted:
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. ... The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
Should be fairly easy to say when they are leaving our rainy haven at the end of their short stay, and what means we have of ensuring this happens then shouldn't it?
I think the Leavers are worrying too much over Nigel Farage's selection. While his efforts to get media coverage cause him to make inflammatory statements, he is capable of being serious when it suits him. He is actually a very good debater and he knows the minutiae of the EU back to front. Farage will also be free to criticize Cameron's policies where Conservatives would have to show due party solidarity.
Having said that, it does not seem fair that David Cameron gets to set the rules for who the other side gets to include. If the Leavers want to put up Michael Gove and the Remainers do not want the PM debating Tories, then Remain should have to put up somebody else. We saw a similar thing happening with the election debates, where David Cameron practically dictated the format. The broadcasters show too much deference to the government in this country.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Jonathan Portes' analysis there is pretty damning.
And note he is a VERY strong REMAINER. Just on this topic he refuses to allow that to cloud his judgement.
EU immigration has, and continues to be, massively understated.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Very few remainers here are compacent, still less bizarrely. Anecdotally, from weeks of canvassing in my leafy Surrey domain (and remember I lost my seat a weeek ago), I was struck by the number, strength and determination of Leave supporters: one credible but inherently untested explanation for the notable anti Tory swing throughout the county and the SE as a whole, is that it was related directly to the referendum.
Fascinating, and thankyou. And chapeau to you for getting out there. You're one of the few sane and reasonable REMAINERS left on pb, I trust what you say.
I *almost* feel sorry for insulting you, passim, I hope you know it is just BANTER, old boy.
Yes, it is clearly the determination of LEAVERS which is freaking out the Establishment. That is to say: turnout.
Seconded. It's hard not to respect John's integrity and courage. Even if I do act as a lightning rod for some of his frustrations with the Right of the party sometimes!
I desperately wanted JohnO to support Leave - he was my litmus test - and my respect for him both for his judgement as a Tory centrist was part of that.
If "vapid bilge" is considered by some on PB to be the red line on insults might I suggest that they may have missed some of the more illuminating contributions of SeanT and malcolmg who would think the offending "vapid bilge" to be hugely complimentary.
Tsk ....
Yes - hard though it is to credit, some posters have even been called turnips. Language doesn't come much more unparliamentary than that.
I've spoken to ten people this week and they are all for LEAVE.
Have seen three posters and one car sticker, all for LEAVE.
Means nothing of course... Maybe there's a "silent majority" who are gonna come out for REMAIN on the day (like STAY'ers did in Scotland) but at this stage I'm surprised at how well LEAVE is doing given everything that's been thrown at it from threats from the POTUS down...
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Me neither - it's extraordinary. Are they swallowing their own echo chamber Kool-Aid?
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Very few remainers here are compacent, still less bizarrely. Anecdotally, from weeks of canvassing in my leafy Surrey domain (and remember I lost my seat a weeek ago), I was struck by the number, strength and determination of Leave supporters: one credible but inherently untested explanation for the notable anti Tory swing throughout the county and the SE as a whole, is that it was related directly to the referendum.
Fascinating, and thankyou. And chapeau to you for getting out there. You're one of the few sane and reasonable REMAINERS left on pb, I trust what you say.
I *almost* feel sorry for insulting you, passim, I hope you know it is just BANTER, old boy.
Yes, it is clearly the determination of LEAVERS which is freaking out the Establishment. That is to say: turnout.
Actually, I am sure that my temporary loss of equilibium a couple of weeks back (which provoked your colestomy bag riposte) was rather more due to an unnerving sense that all would not be well for me on May 5th. Ironically, at the count itself, I was beginning to feel a tad more sanguine....you have to laugh, don't you.
If "vapid bilge" is considered by some on PB to be the red line on insults might I suggest that they may have missed some of the more illuminating contributions of SeanT and malcolmg who would think the offending "vapid bilge" to be hugely complimentary.
Tsk ....
IIRC Sean T once called Nick Palmer a "leper's toupee".
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
I don't think you are a sycophant. I don't even think you are an "arse-licker". But we expect that kind of commentary from @MikeK.
@AlistairMeeks should be held to a higher standard - as was the point of my original post. It was also extraordinary unpleasant to dismiss everything that another post writes as being worthless.
On immigration, it seems to be a non-story, as predicted:
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. ... The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
Bank of England just announced a vote to leave could ' materially lower growth and lead to sharp falls in the value of the pound. Sky saying never seen such an intervention by the Bank Of England. Vote leave furious apparently. This is not good for Brexit not matter how much they try to dismiss it
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
I don't think you are a sycophant. I don't even think you are an "arse-licker". But we expect that kind of commentary from @MikeK.
@AlistairMeeks should be held to a higher standard - as was the point of my original post. It was also extraordinary unpleasant to dismiss everything that another post writes as being worthless.
TSE may be familiar with the Hindi-Urdu word "Chamcha".
I've spoken to ten people this week and they are all for LEAVE.
Have seen three posters and one car sticker, all for LEAVE.
Means nothing of course... Maybe there's a "silent majority" who are gonna come out for REMAIN on the day (like STAY'ers did in Scotland) but at this stage I'm surprised at how well LEAVE is doing given everything that's been thrown at it from threats from the POTUS down...
I think it is impossible to read anything into people we know or signs we see. Everything we know from the polling suggests this is an issue where people are exceptionally divided by geography, age and social class. The biases of our own backgrounds, the places we visit and the people we mix with are going to be much, much stronger in our experiences of "the view of the country" then in any other election.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Me neither - it's extraordinary. Are they swallowing their own echo chamber Kool-Aid?
I think it's Denial. Threader after threader on here discussing the crapness and awfulness of the LEAVE campaign. It's borderline psychotic.
They can't believe they might actually lose this, because it is too painful to contemplate; so they are pretending to themselves they are secretly winning, and winning easily, to mask the internal angst.
The threads lately have kind of felt like the run up to the election when the meme was very much in terms of Ed Miliband becoming PM of a minority government and complete silence/denial of the catastrophe that was about to smash the Lib-Dems to millions of pieces...
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
I don't think you are a sycophant. I don't even think you are an "arse-licker". But we expect that kind of commentary from @MikeK.
@AlistairMeeks should be held to a higher standard - as was the point of my original post. It was also extraordinary unpleasant to dismiss everything that another post writes as being worthless.
So you mean one standard for the Remainers and a lower standard for the Leavers.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Jonathan Portes' analysis there is pretty damning.
And note he is a VERY strong REMAINER. Just on this topic he refuses to allow that to cloud his judgement.
EU immigration has, and continues to be, massively understated.
And the number of EU immigrants claiming benefits has been massively overstated by the government and others. The contribution that they are making to the economy is far greater than previously thought.
And the number of EU immigrants claiming benefits has been massively overstated by the government and others. The contribution that they are making to the economy is far greater than previously thought.
Hard to disagree with this assessment by Matt Chorley in the Red Box email on Vote Leave's reaction.
This feels like a campaign in trouble, desperately thrashing around. Targetting Peston for criticism is the behaviour of a Twitter troll.
I think Vote Leave have a genuine grievance but to put it like that is counterproductive.
@Casino_Royale you are speaking about TSE, the chief Cameron arse licker on PB, where anything Cameron says or does is Holy and beyond reproach.
I'm sure all those who criticised Alastair up thread will be queuing up to criticise this post by MikeK.
Nah - calling someone a sycophant is the usual level of discourse here. Alistair's post was actively unpleasant.
If you think arse licker is on a par with vapid bilge then I have to wonder if English is your first language.
"Arse licker" is crude, certainly, but fairly common parlance for a sycophant.
Dismissing someone's entire oeuvre as "vapid bilge", plus the tone of the posting, put it into a different league.
Bloody hell, even angels couldn't dance on the pinhead you're standing on right now.
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
I don't think you are a sycophant. I don't even think you are an "arse-licker". But we expect that kind of commentary from @MikeK.
@AlistairMeeks should be held to a higher standard - as was the point of my original post. It was also extraordinary unpleasant to dismiss everything that another post writes as being worthless.
So you mean one standard for the Remainers and a lower standard for the Leavers.
TSE may be familiar with the Hindi-Urdu word "Chamcha".
I think the Leavers are worrying too much over Nigel Farage's selection. While his efforts to get media coverage cause him to make inflammatory statements, he is capable of being serious when it suits him. He is actually a very good debater and he knows the minutiae of the EU back to front. Farage will also be free to criticize Cameron's policies where Conservatives would have to show due party solidarity.
Having said that, it does not seem fair that David Cameron gets to set the rules for who the other side gets to include. If the Leavers want to put up Michael Gove and the Remainers do not want the PM debating Tories, then Remain should have to put up somebody else. We saw a similar thing happening with the election debates, where David Cameron practically dictated the format. The broadcasters show too much deference to the government in this country.
Bank of England just announced a vote to leave could ' materially lower growth and lead to sharp falls in the value of the pound. Sky saying never seen such an intervention by the Bank Of England. Vote leave furious apparently. This is not good for Brexit not matter how much they try to dismiss it
I have no idea what Maria Eagle is prattling on about. She should have should have just said, yes very good. She is fighting a war that doesn't exist against a Wittingdale that hasn't done what she read so much about in the Guardian.
It is a fault of all politicians at the moment, instant attack everything. Rather than occasionally saying we agree. It is what I call the Daily Mail Theorem, if you attack everything, when you do actually have a point nobody listens or simply goes buts its in the Daily Mail e.g. Jacqui Spliff's expenses, it took 2 days before people actually believed that a) Daily Mail were telling the truth and b) they were that bad.
Be interesting to compare the Bank of England's statements now with those regarding the Scottish vote.
Might just be me, but they feel stronger now. Yet I cannot believe the act of breaking up a 300 year old country would have smaller ramifications than leaving a political/trading bloc.
Anyway, I am off to perambulate with the hound. Do be nice to one another, or I'll be forced to bang on about my book again. And you wouldn't want that, now, would you?
do you honestly believe the Tories would have won a majority in 2015 without Cameron as leader?
Against Ed Miliband? Yes!
Not sure they would have done with a leader from the right wing of the party, they really aren't appealing to floating voters, outdated social views and backstabbing are so passe.
As we all know Camerons personal ratings were miles higher than the Conservatives as a party. As a lifelong Tory I despair to see the same stupid mistakes being made, in some cases by the same stupid people.
I sometimes get the impression that left wing Tories would rather see Labour in power than a Conservative government led from the right.
Definitely not the case. I'd far rather see a centre right leader than either though. It's a ll about winning and you can't do that from the extremes.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
Me neither - it's extraordinary. Are they swallowing their own echo chamber Kool-Aid?
I think it's Denial. Threader after threader on here discussing the crapness and awfulness of the LEAVE campaign. It's borderline psychotic.
They can't believe they might actually lose this, because it is too painful to contemplate; so they are pretending to themselves they are secretly winning, and winning easily, to mask the internal angst.
Yet, let's be honest, the campaigns have all been crap, and all of them rely on the kind of outright lying that should have caused a degree of outrage that should have led to riots
On immigration, it seems to be a non-story, as predicted:
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals. ... The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
I've spoken to ten people this week and they are all for LEAVE.
Have seen three posters and one car sticker, all for LEAVE.
Means nothing of course... Maybe there's a "silent majority" who are gonna come out for REMAIN on the day (like STAY'ers did in Scotland) but at this stage I'm surprised at how well LEAVE is doing given everything that's been thrown at it from threats from the POTUS down...
I think it is impossible to read anything into people we know or signs we see. Everything we know from the polling suggests this is an issue where people are exceptionally divided by geography, age and social class. The biases of our own backgrounds, the places we visit and the people we mix with are going to be much, much stronger in our experiences of "the view of the country" then in any other election.
Agreed. And welcome to PB.com. We're not normally as bad as we are at the moment... This referendum is making everyone crazy.
Essentially accuses the prime minister of LYING about EU migration stats. Read the details.
Come on LEAVE, pull yer arses out. You could win the referendum today.
Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference
They won't be able to drown it out forever. It's too big. Portes only tweeted ten minutes ago.
It is leave's only hope of gaining traction but now they are caught up in a huge row v ITV and the labour party calling them out in the HOC.
It will probably explode tomorrow, on the newspapers.
Also WTF with "LEAVE's only hope"? Right now, according to the Economist, LEAVE are WINNING
I really don't understand this bizarre complacency from REMAINIACS, is it just whistling in the dark, or are they stupid enough to think they've got this in the bag?
This Remainer was one of the few on here who predicted a Leave win. Immigration is the killer for Remain. Dave and co have spent the last few years making very negative comments about the effects of EU immigration, while doing as little as possible to mitigate it (knowing, of course, that in reality it has been a significant net benefit to the UK economy). They cannot put that genie back in its bottle now.
Comments
But you're fine with me in future calling all Leavers, Farage arse lickers?
PS - Would a sycophant have written this?
The [Zac] campaign may be a pointer to the forthcoming EU referendum, with both sides already engaging in ludicrous project fear campaigns, where it feels the choice is down to for voting for economic Armageddon if we vote to Leave or having 77 million Turks moving to the UK shortly after we vote to Remain.
Memo to both camps, tone down the hyperbole, criticise your opponents with plausible criticisms and not make it appear that victory for the other side was foretold in The Book of Revelation. A bit more hope and a little less fear please.
Maybe I'll try it on his next EU-related thread and find out.
As we all know Camerons personal ratings were miles higher than the Conservatives as a party. As a lifelong Tory I despair to see the same stupid mistakes being made, in some cases by the same stupid people.
If that is true, we're leaving.
Also, I'll believe ITV change Cameron for Brown when I see it.
Mr. T, I agree. It's a significant potential gain for Leave.
Whilst I agree ITV's debate lineup is, shall we say, dubious, Leave has to recognise that infighting won't help it.
Glasshouses. Stones.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2011/01/04/plato-becomes-the-poster-of-the-year-by-just-one-vote/
Only in one of those analogies did Leave kick up a stink.
It's easy for humour (especially sarcasm and irony) to go missing over the internet and mistake silly comments for serious.
Not helped, of course, when people like Alan Johnson seriously call those who want to leave 'extremists'.
I'm full of bonhomie and confidence this morning.
Those who aren't sure, can't choose, or don't want to choose, usually don't vote.
'Being drowned out by the BBC and the corruption conference '
They can do that for a day or so ,but you really believe that the 470,000 figure is not a game changer ?
Remind us what is the number 1 voter concern in virtually every poll for the past couple of years.v
Is AM AntiFrank or Yella Submarine?
The ONS says short-term migration – EU citizens coming to Britain for less than a year and sometimes for as little as a month – accounts for recent gaps between the official net migration figures for long-term immigrants to Britain and the number of national insurance numbers issued to EU nationals.
...
The last set of short-term migration figures showed the number of short-term migrants in Britain at any one time was 101,000 in June 2013, while there were 155,000 British citizens living or working abroad for less than 12 months at the same time.
Actually a small reduction in net immigration if (as the frothers argue) you should add short-term stays into the figures.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/12/ons-short-term-migration-explains-national-insurance-gap
I do think Vote Leave are overdoing it in their reaction, though their grievance is legitimate.
Mr. T, the problem is that the politically engaged have largely made up their minds, but there's six weeks left.
Of course, the forthcoming Spanish Grand Prix will give us something else to discuss.
I thought I'd just come on and condole with you .... in my own way.
Bloody voters .... the bastards !! ....
No idea what the Guardian and all the BAFTA luuvies were banging on about that the government were going to eviscerate the Beeb.
@antifrank was sensible, if prone to hypocrisy - his new incarnation is something else. Perhaps he hopes someone will set up a fan club for him.
http://surveys.survation.com/s3/SkyEUDebate
Oh, I forgot - the Office of National Statistics is now part of the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges. My mistake - the list lengthens so fast that it's hard to keep up.
Which also doesn't work....
Dave is reaping what he sowed here.
Tsk ....
However, the effect will dissipate once the referendum is over. It's by far the dominant political issue at the moment, so of course it is having a disproportionate but temporary impact.
I think the Leavers are worrying too much over Nigel Farage's selection. While his efforts to get media coverage cause him to make inflammatory statements, he is capable of being serious when it suits him. He is actually a very good debater and he knows the minutiae of the EU back to front. Farage will also be free to criticize Cameron's policies where Conservatives would have to show due party solidarity.
Having said that, it does not seem fair that David Cameron gets to set the rules for who the other side gets to include. If the Leavers want to put up Michael Gove and the Remainers do not want the PM debating Tories, then Remain should have to put up somebody else. We saw a similar thing happening with the election debates, where David Cameron practically dictated the format. The broadcasters show too much deference to the government in this country.
And note he is a VERY strong REMAINER. Just on this topic he refuses to allow that to cloud his judgement.
EU immigration has, and continues to be, massively understated.
I desperately wanted JohnO to support Leave - he was my litmus test - and my respect for him both for his judgement as a Tory centrist was part of that.
Have seen three posters and one car sticker, all for LEAVE.
Means nothing of course... Maybe there's a "silent majority" who are gonna come out for REMAIN on the day (like STAY'ers did in Scotland) but at this stage I'm surprised at how well LEAVE is doing given everything that's been thrown at it from threats from the POTUS down...
#ProjectFear
@AlistairMeeks should be held to a higher standard - as was the point of my original post. It was also extraordinary unpleasant to dismiss everything that another post writes as being worthless.
Anyway .... more time for you to undertake random railway journeys to the South coast. I'm sure it's highly therapeutic.
'Bank of England has warned that a vote to leave EU could "materially" lower UK growth'
Are new growth industries like air-raid shelters included in these figures ?
Professionals like you are much sought after ....
It is a fault of all politicians at the moment, instant attack everything. Rather than occasionally saying we agree. It is what I call the Daily Mail Theorem, if you attack everything, when you do actually have a point nobody listens or simply goes buts its in the Daily Mail e.g. Jacqui Spliff's expenses, it took 2 days before people actually believed that a) Daily Mail were telling the truth and b) they were that bad.
Might just be me, but they feel stronger now. Yet I cannot believe the act of breaking up a 300 year old country would have smaller ramifications than leaving a political/trading bloc.
Anyway, I am off to perambulate with the hound. Do be nice to one another, or I'll be forced to bang on about my book again. And you wouldn't want that, now, would you?