@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It doesn't though does it?
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
The new points system properly managed can control our borders as Margaret Thatcher as PM for example successfully did during her premiership
"can", "did" - future and past. We're dealing with the present.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
There's something in that! You'd be very welcome, BigG. Doesn't it strike you that you have more in common with Northern Al or Jonathan or me than with HYUFD? I'm not criticising him - he is entitled to put his views and he's well-informed about polling and conservative opinion. But it does seem that we are closer to you these days, don't you think?
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government
This is not party political and you are out of order
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
'Neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views', you obviously don't know many current Tory voters then let alone Tory members who make me look like a wet lettuce!
Er, what you are implying is that the Conservative Party is an English supremacist party. Is that correct, please?
No the government remains Unionist if also pro Brexit however plenty of Tory supporters now are Little Englanders, many ex UKIP
I do not wish to speculate about the motives of the individual responsible for this horrific crime but I think there was a sea change in attitudes towards MPs at the time of the expenses scandal out of all proportion to the wrongs that had been committed.
I doubt you've speculated about the killer's motives at all there, and I think you're right.
The expenses thing really hurt the reputation of our 'rulers' - and it never would have happened if they were paid sufficiently to not need the expenses, as they should be.
Plenty were stinking rich but still picked the public purse for more. Duck houses, moat cleaning, heated stables, that sort of thing. The idea that they did it because they were skint is risible.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
And there we have it - Roger delivers the vilest post of the day true to form.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
There's something in that! You'd be very welcome, BigG. Doesn't it strike you that you have more in common with Northern al or Jonathan or me than with HYUFD? I'm not criticising him - he is entitled to put his views and he's well-informed about polling and conservative opinion. But it does seem that we are closer to you these days, don't you think?
He was closest to PC or SNP on Political Compass the other week!
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It doesn't though does it?
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
The new points system properly managed can control our borders as Margaret Thatcher as PM for example successfully did during her premiership
It’s not that new. It was brought in in 2008 and didn’t manage to control on EEA immigration even before Brexit.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government
This is not party political and you are out of order
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
'Neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views', you obviously don't know many current Tory voters then let alone Tory members who make me look like a wet lettuce!
Er, what you are implying is that the Conservative Party is an English supremacist party. Is that correct, please?
I have never met a conservative like @HYUFD in all my years associated with the party
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government
This is not party political and you are out of order
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
'Neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views', you obviously don't know many current Tory voters then let alone Tory members who make me look like a wet lettuce!
Er, what you are implying is that the Conservative Party is an English supremacist party. Is that correct, please?
I have never met a conservative like @HYUFD in all my years associated with the party
Hmm, he certainly seems to have done.
Anyway, goodnight to you and everyone else. Not a good day.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I was a lurker in 2015 and I think that it is more accurate to describe Nick’s posts at that time as “being wrong” than the wholly unwarranted accusation of lying. If everyone on this site was, in fact, lying when they got something wrong it would be the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
Bit of both a viable option. And not the biggest, but..
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It doesn't though does it?
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
The new points system properly managed can control our borders as Margaret Thatcher as PM for example successfully did during her premiership
It’s not that new. It was brought in in 2008 and didn’t manage to control on EEA immigration even before Brexit.
Yes because we had free movement in the EEA which Blair expanded by not imposing transition controls on Eastern European immigrants from 2004
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
But we don't know that the accused isn't a member of the Conservative Party, or a donor to it, for that matter.
All you are achieving is prejudice - in more senses than one.
All you are being is naive, in more ways than one.
All the news reports this evening are clear, this is likely a Jihadi terrorist and the police are also clear on that too
On a number of occasions, initial beliefs about the perpetrators and motives of attackers have turned out to be completely inaccurate.
For this reason, as well of out of respect for the dead, most of us are not rushing to draw conclusions.
I do not wish to speculate about the motives of the individual responsible for this horrific crime but I think there was a sea change in attitudes towards MPs at the time of the expenses scandal out of all proportion to the wrongs that had been committed.
I doubt you've speculated about the killer's motives at all there, and I think you're right.
The expenses thing really hurt the reputation of our 'rulers' - and it never would have happened if they were paid sufficiently to not need the expenses, as they should be.
Plenty were stinking rich but still picked the public purse for more. Duck houses, moat cleaning, heated stables, that sort of thing. The idea that they did it because they were skint is risible.
I didn't say anybody did it because they were skint. I never assigned any motive to any expenses claimant.
I said if they were paid enough to not need expenses, there wouldn't have been any expenses claims.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I think that's unfair on Nick.
Labour needed only a 0.5% swing to gain Broxtowe in 2015 and the national polls were certainly showing that - in fact the national result was effectively that.
What did for Nick was the incumbency effect, something which he himself had benefitted from in 2001, happened widely in the East Midlands in 2015 and which is likely to benefit many new Conservative MPs in 2024.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I do indeed read it as any other PBer than yourself.
Even in your reading, how bizarre that you're happy to call @NickPalmer a liar (which he refutes) but you'd never call any other (not NP) PBer a liar?
Regarding the Cretan paradox: Personally, I am 100% certain that all people are liars... and none of them lie 100% of the time, so I don't see the issue.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
And there we have it - Roger delivers the vilest post of the day true to form.
Violence is never an acceptable response to free speech. Those who say otherwise are enemies of democracy.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
Not even the Liberal Democrats have a policy of finding the world's terrorists and inviting them to live in the UK, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I was a lurker in 2015 and I think that it is more accurate to describe Nick’s posts at that time as “being wrong” than the wholly unwarranted accusation of lying. If everyone on this site was, in fact, lying when they got something wrong it would be the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
Errr.
This is the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
That's why we're all here, isn't it? To hear tales of Albanian taxi drivers, with their professional soccer playing sons?
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
Isn't the ex-city in Scotland Elgin? No cathedral any more, or at least it is ruined.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It doesn't though does it?
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
The new points system properly managed can control our borders as Margaret Thatcher as PM for example successfully did during her premiership
It’s not that new. It was brought in in 2008 and didn’t manage to control on EEA immigration even before Brexit.
Yes because we had free movement in the EEA which Blair expanded by not imposing transition controls on Eastern European immigrants from 2004
Sorry, typo, I meant to say “didn’t even manage to control non EEA immigration even before Brexit”. Need to proof read better. Would be helpful as a solicitor
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
There's something in that! You'd be very welcome, BigG. Doesn't it strike you that you have more in common with Northern Al or Jonathan or me than with HYUFD? I'm not criticising him - he is entitled to put his views and he's well-informed about polling and conservative opinion. But it does seem that we are closer to you these days, don't you think?
I find @HYUFD views outlandish, ill judged and embarrassing
I have a great respect for you Nick and share, alongside all my family, a great affinity with animals and their welfare
I am not a conservative member anymore and there are some policies on the left I could vote for but I can say with certainty that if the conservative party in 24 reflects @HYUFD views as expressed herewith they will not have my vote
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
Paula Sherriff, former labour MP, is effusive in her praise for him too.
But he’s a bad man according to one poster here as he was not on message in LGBT issues.
He was, at times, towards certain groups of people, unkind. Particularly towards lgbt people. That’s just a fact. He voted for section 28.
Are people so incapable of nuance? My post was reacting to Yvette cooper’s tweet, which I thought went over the top in praising his kindness. It’s simply not true that he was universally kind to everyone during his political career.
I’m not jumping on his grave, but I’m also not prepared to suspend my critical faculties and pretend he was some perfect human being. This all feels a bit like the enforced worshipping after the death of Diana.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
You spread a very dangerous message that assaulting politicians is recompense for the hatefulness of their policies. Who decides if he deserves to be in fear through such an assault? Who decides if he deserves a bit more than that? Does that mean someone else might deserve a little beating? Some light terrorising?
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It's horrendous.
If I'm not mistaken he was not a politician just an individual fermenting hate. I wonder whether you'd have thought the same if you'd been around during the fascist marches of the 30's when the black shirts marched through the Jewish and immigrant areas of London? If decent people don't show solidarity then the Farages can get away with anything.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
I considered John Prescott a disreputable oaf who did considerably more harm than good. But I was on his side against that fella who through an egg at him, and also against that fella out of Chumbawamba who threw a bucket of water over him. You can't just physically attack people you don't agree with. Because, amongst many other reasons, you can't be sure you're rye one in the right.
I wasnt. I think Prescott got what he deserved and what we learned afterwards makes me wish he had been given ga full half dozen. Prezza wasnt hurt by either "assault" . He was a nasty piece of work who iirc assaulted the man who threw the egg.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
There's something in that! You'd be very welcome, BigG. Doesn't it strike you that you have more in common with Northern al or Jonathan or me than with HYUFD? I'm not criticising him - he is entitled to put his views and he's well-informed about polling and conservative opinion. But it does seem that we are closer to you these days, don't you think?
He was closest to PC or SNP on Political Compass the other week!
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
There's something in that! You'd be very welcome, BigG. Doesn't it strike you that you have more in common with Northern Al or Jonathan or me than with HYUFD? I'm not criticising him - he is entitled to put his views and he's well-informed about polling and conservative opinion. But it does seem that we are closer to you these days, don't you think?
I believe that only one person has the correct views to be a member of @HYUFD's Conservative Party.
Off topic: Anyone got any ideas why the UK is persistently seeing a rate of covid deaths per million nearly triple those seen in France, Germany and Italy?
We constantly hear this, yet the UK is quite middling on the excess death tracker. It suggests differences in reporting more than anything.
I searched Our World in Data for this information. According to the comparison of current excess mortality versus the average for the five years pre-Covid, and looking at the most recent comparable weekly figures published (for September 26th,) England & Wales had excess mortality of 15% above the long-term trend, whereas the comparable figure for Germany was 10%. Now, these numbers to fluctuate a fair bit - earlier in the Spring and Summer we were often doing rather better than other large European states on this metric; at the moment we're doing a bit worse - but, in any even, it's not exactly a yawning chasm.
You also have to wonder what will happen when the heavier restrictions in place in various continental countries, particularly enforcing masks all over the place, are lifted - assuming that this ever happens. To the extent that they are outperforming the UK, will this simply be undone as soon as they let go of public health impositions? I would imagine that most or all of Western Europe has now hit the wall of vaccine refusal, most of the remaining refusers are going to dig their heels in, and the disease ain't going to go away. So, to what extent are face gags actually saving anyone outright, like one can plausibly argue they might've been doing before or during the bulk vaccination programmes, and to what extent are they now merely delaying the inevitable?
Death rates from Covid are, to a large extent, out the hands of politicians anyway.
How old is your population? How many intergenerational households do you have? (And how many single person ones?) How dependent is your population on public transport? How many cases were you seeded with, before you even knew you had a problem?
All those are going to have a massive effect on your overall death rates - probably above and beyond anything policy related.
And now how willing is the population to get vaccinated.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
You spread a very dangerous message that assaulting politicians is recompense for the hatefulness of their policies. Who decides if he deserves to be in fear through such an assault? Who decides if he deserves a bit more than that? Does that mean someone else might deserve a little beating? Some light terrorising?
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It's horrendous.
If I'm not mistaken he was not a politician just an individual fermenting hate. I wonder whether you'd have thought the same if you'd been around during the fascist marches of the 30's when the black shirts marched through the Jewish and immigrant areas of London? If decent people don't show solidarity then the Farages can get away with anything.
You're still defending politically motivated assaults after what's happened today?!
Off topic: Anyone got any ideas why the UK is persistently seeing a rate of covid deaths per million nearly triple those seen in France, Germany and Italy?
We constantly hear this, yet the UK is quite middling on the excess death tracker. It suggests differences in reporting more than anything.
I searched Our World in Data for this information. According to the comparison of current excess mortality versus the average for the five years pre-Covid, and looking at the most recent comparable weekly figures published (for September 26th,) England & Wales had excess mortality of 15% above the long-term trend, whereas the comparable figure for Germany was 10%. Now, these numbers to fluctuate a fair bit - earlier in the Spring and Summer we were often doing rather better than other large European states on this metric; at the moment we're doing a bit worse - but, in any even, it's not exactly a yawning chasm.
You also have to wonder what will happen when the heavier restrictions in place in various continental countries, particularly enforcing masks all over the place, are lifted - assuming that this ever happens. To the extent that they are outperforming the UK, will this simply be undone as soon as they let go of public health impositions? I would imagine that most or all of Western Europe has now hit the wall of vaccine refusal, most of the remaining refusers are going to dig their heels in, and the disease ain't going to go away. So, to what extent are face gags actually saving anyone outright, like one can plausibly argue they might've been doing before or during the bulk vaccination programmes, and to what extent are they now merely delaying the inevitable?
Death rates from Covid are, to a large extent, out the hands of politicians anyway.
How old is your population? How many intergenerational households do you have? (And how many single person ones?) How dependent is your population on public transport? How many cases were you seeded with, before you even knew you had a problem?
All those are going to have a massive effect on your overall death rates - probably above and beyond anything policy related.
And now how willing is the population to get vaccinated.
I estimate that roughly a third of the posts on this thread are about telling other folk what they should or shouldn't do or say, with a generous side of aren't these people horrible. PB at its best. Ok, not that thing. PB at its most characteristic.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
Yay! Do I get a prize for getting it right?
Llanelwy and St David’s in Wales also lost their city status in I think 1974, although both later got it back.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I was a lurker in 2015 and I think that it is more accurate to describe Nick’s posts at that time as “being wrong” than the wholly unwarranted accusation of lying. If everyone on this site was, in fact, lying when they got something wrong it would be the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
Errr.
This is the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
That's why we're all here, isn't it? To hear tales of Albanian taxi drivers, with their professional soccer playing sons?
Which reminds me: I had that Sean Thomas in my cab the other day. He told me he was...
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
I considered John Prescott a disreputable oaf who did considerably more harm than good. But I was on his side against that fella who through an egg at him, and also against that fella out of Chumbawamba who threw a bucket of water over him. You can't just physically attack people you don't agree with. Because, amongst many other reasons, you can't be sure you're rye one in the right.
Would you feel the same and equally unsure of your action if someone threw an egg at Tommy Robinson?
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community?
I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
A quote directly from this exchange:
"It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious"
This has nothing to do with my views on immigration and everything to do with your trying to make political capital and score points out of the murder of a man.
Every time I think you have scraped the bottom you prove you can sink even lower.
'...and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.'
By that time it was already clear the counter terrorism unit had taken over.
I am not going to be guilt shamed by your ultra libertarian, ultra liberal, pro open borders policy into not stating the obvious on immigration. We need tighter border controls and greater emphasis on national security and screening of potential immigrants.
That is the only way to avoid future murders like the appalling murder of Sir David today, plus tighter security for MPs
I'm sure we'll have this argument on many days in the future. And we should do, because democracy and politics is nothing without vigorous debate.
But does it have to be today?
I'd much rather read about the many good things about David Amess that I did not know about then the nth instalment of an argument we've had many times already, and will have many times again, and that on the basis of only partial information.
The murder of an MP at his constituency surgery is a tragedy for the MPs family and friends. It is also an attack on our democracy, on all of us. It would be nice to pause our normal disagreements and rancour, to remember the things that unite us. We spend so much time on the things that divide us, we can spare a day on something more positive on a day with so much sadness.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I was a lurker in 2015 and I think that it is more accurate to describe Nick’s posts at that time as “being wrong” than the wholly unwarranted accusation of lying. If everyone on this site was, in fact, lying when they got something wrong it would be the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
Errr.
This is the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
That's why we're all here, isn't it? To hear tales of Albanian taxi drivers, with their professional soccer playing sons?
Which reminds me: I had that Sean Thomas in my cab the other day. He told me he was...
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
There's something in that! You'd be very welcome, BigG. Doesn't it strike you that you have more in common with Northern Al or Jonathan or me than with HYUFD? I'm not criticising him - he is entitled to put his views and he's well-informed about polling and conservative opinion. But it does seem that we are closer to you these days, don't you think?
I believe that only one person has the correct views to be a member of @HYUFD's Conservative Party.
Who is that person as I suspect HYUFD probably has historic views that would block his admission.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
I considered John Prescott a disreputable oaf who did considerably more harm than good. But I was on his side against that fella who through an egg at him, and also against that fella out of Chumbawamba who threw a bucket of water over him. You can't just physically attack people you don't agree with. Because, amongst many other reasons, you can't be sure you're rye one in the right.
Would you feel the same and equally unsure of your action if someone threw an egg at Tommy Robinson?
I'd be against the way it would inevitably help his cause.
But I wouldn't bring it up when it related to a brutal murder that happened today.
Off topic: Anyone got any ideas why the UK is persistently seeing a rate of covid deaths per million nearly triple those seen in France, Germany and Italy?
We constantly hear this, yet the UK is quite middling on the excess death tracker. It suggests differences in reporting more than anything.
I searched Our World in Data for this information. According to the comparison of current excess mortality versus the average for the five years pre-Covid, and looking at the most recent comparable weekly figures published (for September 26th,) England & Wales had excess mortality of 15% above the long-term trend, whereas the comparable figure for Germany was 10%. Now, these numbers to fluctuate a fair bit - earlier in the Spring and Summer we were often doing rather better than other large European states on this metric; at the moment we're doing a bit worse - but, in any even, it's not exactly a yawning chasm.
You also have to wonder what will happen when the heavier restrictions in place in various continental countries, particularly enforcing masks all over the place, are lifted - assuming that this ever happens. To the extent that they are outperforming the UK, will this simply be undone as soon as they let go of public health impositions? I would imagine that most or all of Western Europe has now hit the wall of vaccine refusal, most of the remaining refusers are going to dig their heels in, and the disease ain't going to go away. So, to what extent are face gags actually saving anyone outright, like one can plausibly argue they might've been doing before or during the bulk vaccination programmes, and to what extent are they now merely delaying the inevitable?
Death rates from Covid are, to a large extent, out the hands of politicians anyway.
How old is your population? How many intergenerational households do you have? (And how many single person ones?) How dependent is your population on public transport? How many cases were you seeded with, before you even knew you had a problem?
All those are going to have a massive effect on your overall death rates - probably above and beyond anything policy related.
And now how willing is the population to get vaccinated.
Fair point.
I predict FR and Germany will be in same situation as us in a month or so. It is a lag with delta. We were way ahead on delta.
I've always thought that MPs should be paid more, to open it up as a competitive option to more people, and encourage a higher level of knowledge, intelligence, education and wisdom into the top end end of the applicants.
But it's actually now a seriously perilous job. How many other professions have had 1 in 325 of their number murdered in the last 5 years?
The danger money alone should be higher than their current salary.
Since the basic 84k salary of an MP is around the 97th-98th percentile on the income distribution, even ignoring all the pensions and perks and the rest, it doesn't exactly leave a lot of people out.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
I considered John Prescott a disreputable oaf who did considerably more harm than good. But I was on his side against that fella who through an egg at him, and also against that fella out of Chumbawamba who threw a bucket of water over him. You can't just physically attack people you don't agree with. Because, amongst many other reasons, you can't be sure you're rye one in the right.
Would you feel the same and equally unsure of your action if someone threw an egg at Tommy Robinson?
I'd be against the way it would inevitably help his cause.
But I wouldn't bring it up when it related to a brutal murder that happened today.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Seriously. You're like a reverse and reflected HYUFD; the complete opposite but the same.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
You spread a very dangerous message that assaulting politicians is recompense for the hatefulness of their policies. Who decides if he deserves to be in fear through such an assault? Who decides if he deserves a bit more than that? Does that mean someone else might deserve a little beating? Some light terrorising?
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It's horrendous.
If I'm not mistaken he was not a politician just an individual fermenting hate. I wonder whether you'd have thought the same if you'd been around during the fascist marches of the 30's when the black shirts marched through the Jewish and immigrant areas of London? If decent people don't show solidarity then the Farages can get away with anything.
You're still defending politically motivated assaults after what's happened today?!
Seriously. That's INSANE.
Turn your computer/phone/tablet off.
Do something else.
I don't really see the logic here. Egging, cream pieing and throwing rotten turnips are not the same as and not a step on the slippery slope towards stabbing someone to death. I still think throwing a traffic cone at IDS was a lol worthy thing to do.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
Not even the Liberal Democrats have a policy of finding the world's terrorists and inviting them to live in the UK, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.
It would certainly rebut the 'All parties are the same' accusations.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
That's very touching
Amess appears to be - have been (*sigh*) - an old fashioned "working class" Tory. His mum was a tea lady. He was born in Plaistow. Went to a grammar school, then Bournemouth University, became a primary school teacher
From what I can glean he was patriotic, friendly, religious, kind, slightly old fashioned, and animal loving. Eurosceptic, hard working and definitely loyal: to party, country, Queen and town.
It is really really easy to laugh at these people. Nothing glamorous about them. But they are the backbone of democracy. As are their equivalents on the Labour benches - or the Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, Plaid.
They often look a bit stupid or naff or gauche, but someone has to do the hard work of democracy. They do it. And today he was killed for doing it
I've always thought that MPs should be paid more, to open it up as a competitive option to more people, and encourage a higher level of knowledge, intelligence, education and wisdom into the top end end of the applicants.
But it's actually now a seriously perilous job. How many other professions have had 1 in 325 of their number murdered in the last 5 years?
The danger money alone should be higher than their current salary.
Since the basic 84k salary of an MP is around the 97th-98th percentile on the income distribution, even ignoring all the pensions and perks and the rest, it doesn't exactly leave a lot of people out.
It does if, like me, you're arguing for MPs to be paid enough that they don't need expenses. 84k to live in two places, including London, isn't enough.
I think they should also be paid enough to make high achievers fancy the job, even if not as much as they could earn commercially
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
You spread a very dangerous message that assaulting politicians is recompense for the hatefulness of their policies. Who decides if he deserves to be in fear through such an assault? Who decides if he deserves a bit more than that? Does that mean someone else might deserve a little beating? Some light terrorising?
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It's horrendous.
If I'm not mistaken he was not a politician just an individual fermenting hate. I wonder whether you'd have thought the same if you'd been around during the fascist marches of the 30's when the black shirts marched through the Jewish and immigrant areas of London? If decent people don't show solidarity then the Farages can get away with anything.
You're still defending politically motivated assaults after what's happened today?!
Seriously. That's INSANE.
Turn your computer/phone/tablet off.
Do something else.
I don't really see the logic here. Egging, cream pieing and throwing rotten turnips are not the same as and not a step on the slippery slope towards stabbing someone to death. I still think throwing a traffic cone at IDS was a lol worthy thing to do.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
That's very touching
Amess appears to be - have been (*sigh*) - an old fashioned "working class" Tory. His mum was a tea lady. He was born in Plaistow. Went to a grammar school, then Bournemouth University, became a primary school teacher
From what I can glean he was patriotic, friendly, religious, kind, slightly old fashioned, and animal loving. Eurosceptic, hard working and definitely loyal: to party, country, Queen and town.
It is really really easy to laugh at these people. Nothing glamorous about them. But they are the backbone of democracy. As are their equivalents on the Labour benches - or the Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, Plaid.
They often look a bit stupid or naff or gauche, but someone has to do the hard work of democracy. They do it. And today he was killed for doing it
It describes a lot of councillors. Unambitious, well meaning, pootling along in a slightly silly job without much attention. They do good work.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
You spread a very dangerous message that assaulting politicians is recompense for the hatefulness of their policies. Who decides if he deserves to be in fear through such an assault? Who decides if he deserves a bit more than that? Does that mean someone else might deserve a little beating? Some light terrorising?
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It's horrendous.
If I'm not mistaken he was not a politician just an individual fermenting hate. I wonder whether you'd have thought the same if you'd been around during the fascist marches of the 30's when the black shirts marched through the Jewish and immigrant areas of London? If decent people don't show solidarity then the Farages can get away with anything.
You're still defending politically motivated assaults after what's happened today?!
Seriously. That's INSANE.
Turn your computer/phone/tablet off.
Do something else.
I don't really see the logic here. Egging, cream pieing and throwing rotten turnips are not the same as and not a step on the slippery slope towards stabbing someone to death. I still think throwing a traffic cone at IDS was a lol worthy thing to do.
Then someone chucks a brick.....
Exactly. It doesn't automatically lead to stabbing, that's a level requiring a very extreme motivation or mental issue, but once you decide it's ok to act that way you accept others should, to you and others, and it will escalate.
Isn't the trouble that they're reaching the limit of their current physical capabilities?
At the length they are now, the tips of the blades reach such a high speed that they're very near to becoming unstable, and so any more length would need an entirely new kind of material design?
Well in visual impact at least the difference between a group of massive vs super massive turbines doesn't seem that different to me. One wonders how well the materials hold up at such scale though.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I think that's unfair on Nick.
Labour needed only a 0.5% swing to gain Broxtowe in 2015 and the national polls were certainly showing that - in fact the national result was effectively that.
What did for Nick was the incumbency effect, something which he himself had benefitted from in 2001, happened widely in the East Midlands in 2015 and which is likely to benefit many new Conservative MPs in 2024.
But he unambiguously admitted after the event that he had been whistling in the dark on here to keep his spirits up, in a context where it would make fuck all difference to the vote but potentially a serious difference to PBer betting positions. Not mine, because I never trusted him in the first place, but good on the electorate. They occasionally get it right.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Ummm. Isn't it in Scotland?
I deliberately said England because I didn't trust the Scots not to have done something weird I didn't know about. What's the one in Scotland? The one in England is Rochester, which lost its status ina fit of absent-mindedness in the 90s.
Isn't the trouble that they're reaching the limit of their current physical capabilities?
At the length they are now, the tips of the blades reach such a high speed that they're very near to becoming unstable, and so any more length would need an entirely new kind of material design?
I’m not sure what @HYUFD has written that has got everyone so riled up.
I think it’s perfectly ok to want to know about the violent nutjob’s background and stated grievance.
People seem highly strung tonight.
I agree.
It's perfectly proper to inquire into the motives of a cruel murderer. Especially when they attack the essence of our democracy: MPs freely meeting their constituents
This would be true if the assailant was a rightwing anti vaxxer, an IRA rogue, an animal right nutter, or an immigrant Islamist. Or anything else. If there is a threat, let it be called out. We know Jo Cox was killed by some Britain First lunatic. Should that have been hidden in shame? Or not discussed?
No, we needed to know that some people took the Trumpite Brexit discourse to an insane new level. It was important to know that, and learn from it. Hopefully, we did
Likewise, this
Ironically, HYUFD reminds me of David Amess, as I see him described on line. Patriotic, religious, loyal, a bit gauche and awkward sometimes, perhaps even occasionally annoying, but definitely on the side of the angels, in the end
Perhaps we should all cut each other some slack, just today
Is it time to make a specific crime of making death threats to an MP or perhaps anyone in public office?
Give it a whacking custodial sentence penalty and then flood social media with adverts reminding people that the penalty for a death threat is a serious dose of porridge?
Is it time to make a specific crime of making death threats to an MP or perhaps anyone in public office?
Give it a whacking custodial sentence penalty and then flood social media with adverts reminding people that the penalty for a death threat is a serious dose of porridge?
I thought the two men who were found guilty of assaulting Chris Whitty, when really they just put there arms round him a bit boisterously, were harshly treated, but maybe today's murder shows why they were
Well in visual impact at least the difference between a group of massive vs super massive turbines doesn't seem that different to me. One wonders how well the materials hold up at such scale though.
The other question is just how far out the pressure wave extends. I have heard horror stories about the number of seabirds being killed by even the smaller turbine blades. The pressure wave bursts their lungs.
In Napoleonic era encounters at sea, a cannon ball cold smash through the timbers and kill crew just by the force off the pressure wave, never actually needing to touch them to kill them.
The illinois Dems in charge of Redistricting are apparently idiots.
They've drawn a bunch of not hugely safe Dem seats that could easily flip in a strong GOP performance. Whilst leaving some super blue seats untouched. They coild have easily donated some of the blue to more marginal seats.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
That's very touching
Amess appears to be - have been (*sigh*) - an old fashioned "working class" Tory. His mum was a tea lady. He was born in Plaistow. Went to a grammar school, then Bournemouth University, became a primary school teacher
From what I can glean he was patriotic, friendly, religious, kind, slightly old fashioned, and animal loving. Eurosceptic, hard working and definitely loyal: to party, country, Queen and town.
It is really really easy to laugh at these people. Nothing glamorous about them. But they are the backbone of democracy. As are their equivalents on the Labour benches - or the Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, Plaid.
They often look a bit stupid or naff or gauche, but someone has to do the hard work of democracy. They do it. And today he was killed for doing it
It is desperately sad. I came home to find my wife in tears. She knew Jo Cox's family and it brought back a lot of painful memories. David Amess, Jo Cox, and all those who have been threatened or molested simply for doing their duty keeping our democracy alive - this messy, imperfect system that is still the best way of running a country that has ever been created - deserve our undying respect tonight.
I’m not sure what @HYUFD has written that has got everyone so riled up.
I think it’s perfectly ok to want to know about the violent nutjob’s background and stated grievance.
People seem highly strung tonight.
I agree.
It's perfectly proper to inquire into the motives of a cruel murderer. Especially when they attack the essence of our democracy: MPs freely meeting their constituents
This would be true if the assailant was a rightwing anti vaxxer, an IRA rogue, an animal right nutter, or an immigrant Islamist. Or anything else. If there is a threat, let it be called out. We know Jo Cox was killed by some Britain First lunatic. Should that have been hidden in shame? Or not discussed?
No, we needed to know that some people took the Trumpite Brexit discourse to an insane new level. It was important to know that, and learn from it. Hopefully, we did
Likewise, this
Ironically, HYUFD reminds me of David Amess, as I see him described on line. Patriotic, religious, loyal, a bit gauche and awkward sometimes, perhaps even occasionally annoying, but definitely on the side of the angels, in the end
Perhaps we should all cut each other some slack, just today
Looking at the thread the day after Jo Cox's murder, this was an eye opener, given THAT spreadsheet
another_richard Posts: 21,562 June 2016 For those who are wondering what's happened to AndyJS he feels that he's not wanted on PB.
Whoever gave him that impression might like to apologise.
Perhaps we could all try to be a little more polite and a little less hostile to each other.
I’m not sure what @HYUFD has written that has got everyone so riled up.
I think it’s perfectly ok to want to know about the violent nutjob’s background and stated grievance.
People seem highly strung tonight.
I agree.
It's perfectly proper to inquire into the motives of a cruel murderer. Especially when they attack the essence of our democracy: MPs freely meeting their constituents
This would be true if the assailant was a rightwing anti vaxxer, an IRA rogue, an animal right nutter, or an immigrant Islamist. Or anything else. If there is a threat, let it be called out. We know Jo Cox was killed by some Britain First lunatic. Should that have been hidden in shame? Or not discussed?
No, we needed to know that some people took the Trumpite Brexit discourse to an insane new level. It was important to know that, and learn from it. Hopefully, we did
Likewise, this
Ironically, HYUFD reminds me of David Amess, as I see him described on line. Patriotic, religious, loyal, a bit gauche and awkward sometimes, perhaps even occasionally annoying, but definitely on the side of the angels, in the end
Perhaps we should all cut each other some slack, just today
In a day or so, we'll actually know exactly who did it, and (in all probability) what their motives were.
We'll have their history, their social media, their membership of groups, their emails and Whatsapps.
I absolutely agree, I've steadily been getting sadder throughout the day about this. @Taz here earlier mentioned Paula Sheriff. I actually knew Paula a few years ago and spent US Election night in 2012 with Paula in a little house gathering here in Leeds when I used to be more involved in the Labour party.
I have not a bad word to say about her as she's a fantastic woman and campaigner. I've since lost touch with my active political side, but seeing her share her experiences with Sir David Amess really brought it home to me how personal this feels.
I’m not sure what @HYUFD has written that has got everyone so riled up.
I think it’s perfectly ok to want to know about the violent nutjob’s background and stated grievance.
People seem highly strung tonight.
I agree.
It's perfectly proper to inquire into the motives of a cruel murderer. Especially when they attack the essence of our democracy: MPs freely meeting their constituents
This would be true if the assailant was a rightwing anti vaxxer, an IRA rogue, an animal right nutter, or an immigrant Islamist. Or anything else. If there is a threat, let it be called out. We know Jo Cox was killed by some Britain First lunatic. Should that have been hidden in shame? Or not discussed?
No, we needed to know that some people took the Trumpite Brexit discourse to an insane new level. It was important to know that, and learn from it. Hopefully, we did
Likewise, this
Ironically, HYUFD reminds me of David Amess, as I see him described on line. Patriotic, religious, loyal, a bit gauche and awkward sometimes, perhaps even occasionally annoying, but definitely on the side of the angels, in the end
Perhaps we should all cut each other some slack, just today
Looking at the thread the day after Jo Cox's murder, this was an eye opener, given THAT spreadsheet
another_richard Posts: 21,562 June 2016 For those who are wondering what's happened to AndyJS he feels that he's not wanted on PB.
Whoever gave him that impression might like to apologise.
Perhaps we could all try to be a little more polite and a little less hostile to each other.
I honestly can't remember getting involved in a controversial debate about Jo Cox. Hope it wasn't too rancorous. Big mistake by me if I did get involved in one.
I honestly can't remember getting involved in a controversial debate about Jo Cox. Hope it wasn't too rancorous. Big mistake by me if I did get involved in one.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Your divisive comments tonight are just unacceptable and conservatives across the land will only be thinking of Sir David his family and friends
Shame on you
I have given plenty of condolences to Sir David and his family earlier.
However lessons must also be learnt to stop this terrible crime happening again.
You can bury your head in the sand about it and insult me if you like but crimes like this will not stop unless action is taken
And the appropriate action to be taken will depend on the facts. Which we do not yet know, you included.
So you would be wise to keep quiet until the facts are known because otherwise you risk making yourself look like an even bigger fool - and, frankly, an insensitive one at that - than you usually do.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Your divisive comments tonight are just unacceptable and conservatives across the land will only be thinking of Sir David his family and friends
Shame on you
I have given plenty of condolences to Sir David and his family earlier.
However lessons must also be learnt to stop this terrible crime happening again.
You can bury your head in the sand about it and insult me if you like but crimes like this will not stop unless action is taken
And the appropriate action to be taken will depend on the facts. Which we do not yet know, you included.
So you would be wise to keep quiet until the facts are known because otherwise you risk making yourself look like an even bigger fool - and, frankly, an insensitive one at that - than you usually do.
I would of course expect no less from you, being a left liberal from central casting
Comments
Anyway, goodnight to you and everyone else. Not a good day.
And not the biggest, but..
For this reason, as well of out of respect for the dead, most of us are not rushing to draw conclusions.
I said if they were paid enough to not need expenses, there wouldn't have been any expenses claims.
Try again.
Labour needed only a 0.5% swing to gain Broxtowe in 2015 and the national polls were certainly showing that - in fact the national result was effectively that.
What did for Nick was the incumbency effect, something which he himself had benefitted from in 2001, happened widely in the East Midlands in 2015 and which is likely to benefit many new Conservative MPs in 2024.
Even in your reading, how bizarre that you're happy to call @NickPalmer a liar (which he refutes) but you'd never call any other (not NP) PBer a liar?
Regarding the Cretan paradox: Personally, I am 100% certain that all people are liars... and none of them lie 100% of the time, so I don't see the issue.
This is the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
That's why we're all here, isn't it? To hear tales of Albanian taxi drivers, with their professional soccer playing sons?
I have a great respect for you Nick and share, alongside all my family, a great affinity with animals and their welfare
I am not a conservative member anymore and there are some policies on the left I could vote for but I can say with certainty that if the conservative party in 24 reflects @HYUFD views as expressed herewith they will not have my vote
Are people so incapable of nuance? My post was reacting to Yvette cooper’s tweet, which I thought went over the top in praising his kindness. It’s simply not true that he was universally kind to everyone during his political career.
I’m not jumping on his grave, but I’m also not prepared to suspend my critical faculties and pretend he was some perfect human being. This all feels a bit like the enforced worshipping after the death of Diana.
Seriously. That's INSANE.
Turn your computer/phone/tablet off.
Do something else.
PB at its best.
Ok, not that thing.
PB at its most characteristic.
But does it have to be today?
I'd much rather read about the many good things about David Amess that I did not know about then the nth instalment of an argument we've had many times already, and will have many times again, and that on the basis of only partial information.
The murder of an MP at his constituency surgery is a tragedy for the MPs family and friends. It is also an attack on our democracy, on all of us. It would be nice to pause our normal disagreements and rancour, to remember the things that unite us. We spend so much time on the things that divide us, we can spare a day on something more positive on a day with so much sadness.
But I wouldn't bring it up when it related to a brutal murder that happened today.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Reflect on that.
I think it’s perfectly ok to want to know about the violent nutjob’s background and stated grievance.
People seem highly strung tonight.
That's very touching
Amess appears to be - have been (*sigh*) - an old fashioned "working class" Tory. His mum was a tea lady. He was born in Plaistow. Went to a grammar school, then Bournemouth University, became a primary school teacher
From what I can glean he was patriotic, friendly, religious, kind, slightly old fashioned, and animal loving. Eurosceptic, hard working and definitely loyal: to party, country, Queen and town.
It is really really easy to laugh at these people. Nothing glamorous about them. But they are the backbone of democracy. As are their equivalents on the Labour benches - or the Lib Dems, SNP, Greens, Plaid.
They often look a bit stupid or naff or gauche, but someone has to do the hard work of democracy. They do it. And today he was killed for doing it
I think they should also be paid enough to make high achievers fancy the job, even if not as much as they could earn commercially
'Why giant turbines are pushing the limits of possibility'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58704792
At the length they are now, the tips of the blades reach such a high speed that they're very near to becoming unstable, and so any more length would need an entirely new kind of material design?
I've got used to graphene being the answer!
Tick tock.
It's perfectly proper to inquire into the motives of a cruel murderer. Especially when they attack the essence of our democracy: MPs freely meeting their constituents
This would be true if the assailant was a rightwing anti vaxxer, an IRA rogue, an animal right nutter, or an immigrant Islamist. Or anything else. If there is a threat, let it be called out. We know Jo Cox was killed by some Britain First lunatic. Should that have been hidden in shame? Or not discussed?
No, we needed to know that some people took the Trumpite Brexit discourse to an insane new level. It was important to know that, and learn from it. Hopefully, we did
Likewise, this
Ironically, HYUFD reminds me of David Amess, as I see him described on line. Patriotic, religious, loyal, a bit gauche and awkward sometimes, perhaps even occasionally annoying, but definitely on the side of the angels, in the end
Perhaps we should all cut each other some slack, just today
Give it a whacking custodial sentence penalty and then flood social media with adverts reminding people that the penalty for a death threat is a serious dose of porridge?
She's added a bit at the start where she says how he helped her with her nerves before they started the interview.
I'm getting sadder and sadder about this lovely guy's horrible and sudden demise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cbVfAFS-8
In Napoleonic era encounters at sea, a cannon ball cold smash through the timbers and kill crew just by the force off the pressure wave, never actually needing to touch them to kill them.
They've drawn a bunch of not hugely safe Dem seats that could easily flip in a strong GOP performance. Whilst leaving some super blue seats untouched. They coild have easily donated some of the blue to more marginal seats.
another_richard Posts: 21,562
June 2016
For those who are wondering what's happened to AndyJS he feels that he's not wanted on PB.
Whoever gave him that impression might like to apologise.
Perhaps we could all try to be a little more polite and a little less hostile to each other.
We'll have their history, their social media, their membership of groups, their emails and Whatsapps.
But we have none of that now.
King's Cambridge Choir - Once In Royal David's City
I have not a bad word to say about her as she's a fantastic woman and campaigner. I've since lost touch with my active political side, but seeing her share her experiences with Sir David Amess really brought it home to me how personal this feels.
"HYUFD said:
BBC 10 pm news leading with witness saying he shouted 'Britain First'"
https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/16/politics-doesnt-matter-today/
So I don't think we can say his speculation over the suspect today is unprecedented, or one eyed
So you would be wise to keep quiet until the facts are known because otherwise you risk making yourself look like an even bigger fool - and, frankly, an insensitive one at that - than you usually do.