Sir David Amess MP stabbed multiple times at his surgery - Sky
Hope he makes a full recovery.
So Angela, is it OK to stab scum?
O-to scoring political point 5.7 secs. Not bad.
I wouldn't expect you to see a difference between point scoring and making.
If you label an entire political party as scum, you have to take some responsibility when some people see them as detached from upholding the right to express a contrary opinion to their own.
Angela Rayner's comment corroded democracy. Even more disgraceful when it was a cynical ploy for her personal ambition - to get above Starmer on the news cycle at the start of Conference.
If a Tory had called Labour "scum" a week before Jo Cox was murdered, do you think there would have been a restrained silence to link the two?
Exactly. Perfectly put. Jo Cox labelled scum two weeks before dying in her own blood in writhing pain like Sir David. That’s why what she done was so wrong, so dumb, so unparliamentary and not fit for her position. For personal ambition she stoked it up Trump style. And this is the horrific result of her mendacious stupidity.
This is just crap. The chances of there being any causal link direct or indirect between Raynor's comments and this awful event are pretty much zero and you certainly have no evidence of such a link.
There is an argument that politicians should be more temperate in their utterings. Now is really not the time.
You are wrong.
People in other political parties are not scum. They are democratic politicians who democratically argue for a policy position they believe in, with families who love them, and the voters trust them because they keep winning - and don’t trust Rayner and her nasty Labour colleagues, and on days like this you can understand why the electorate keep getting it right.
Your rival democratic colleagues are not scum.
Bit premature on the motivation of the stabber.
So you too effectively support Rayners divisive Trumpesque language, and are telling us there is absolutely no correlation between divisive language of hate and any violent actions?
Really?
I think what Rayner said was indefensible. Before this. After this.
A link is more questionable: - If someone killed him for being a Conservative, or even Brexit views then that kind of language draws a link, I think. - If it turns out that it was terrorism in the sense of 'kill an MP, any MP' then any such link is much harder to make. - If it turns out to be over some more personal matter (e.g. disgruntled over handling/not pursuing some issue) then also hard to make the link.
I think we should all accept that, right now, we don't know. I'll condemn Rayner, but I won't link her comments to this - at least, not yet.
You are trying to convince me, the language of division and hate from party leaders does not encourage division, hate and violence from followers?
Goodbye.
No, I'm not. I agree the language of division and hate from party leaders does encourage division, hate and violence from followers. I condemn what was said. I won't take the next step that you want to take without knowing the facts of what has happened - I think that is the only point at which we differ.
I hope, if you read my post again, you will see that.
Wiki is "was" already. Always taken aback by the speed of that. I was confirming my recollection that David Amess = the Tory MP whose beaming face and result in 92 first told us that Major had unexpectedly won. So, no place in my heart, but what a truly terrible thing to happen.
Wow, stunning lack of grace there.
In what way? I wasn't conscious of writing anything bad
Mentioning the main thing I recall him for, you mean? The 92 election?
The people who have a place in their heart for him don't need to hear that you don't on the day he was murdered.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
One sad thing that we must all acknowledge - that intemperate language about others can be just a joke, but can act as incitement to others.
When I was at university, an idiot tried to frame someone as being a racist, by faking emails.
Fortunately he was a moron, and trivially caught. He was chucked out of the university.
It turned out that it was politically motivated - he had taken literally the rhetoric that some in the political society he belonged to, used. Due to a quirk in his personality, he seems to take everything literally.
He actually, at the Student Union hearing* on this, shouted "But she's a XXXXX - why are you doing this to me?"
*Given that he was about to be kicked out of University, the Student Union assembled a panel to decide whether we should intervene and what we should do.
Aaron Bastani @AaronBastani · 40m This is so dreadful. 2 politicians have now been murdered while trying to fulfil their duties as public officials. If they can't do that without fear of violent attack we lose a major part of being a free society.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
Jo Cox’ murderer got a whole life term - no possibility of parole.
This should be the same outcome irrespective of the motive.
That will depend on motivation, mental state and so on. Let's not get too far ahead of events and knowledge.
But I agree with those who say that an attack on an elected individual performing their duties should be considered an exacerbating factor in the same way that an attack on, say, a police officer would be.
Mental = life in a high-security hospital. Remember, the judge presiding over Jo Cox's murderer was very insistent that mental health had nothing to do with it.
Motivation. Well, short of it being revenge for something in Amess's personal life, there is no mitigating factor.
IIRC the evidence was the Jo Cox's murderer was fit to plead*, and motivated by being a violent neo-Nazi.
*He exhibited some nutty behaviours, but was judged responsible for his actions by various mental health experts.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
Is it not authoritative? I did wonder at the long gaps
Well, tons of people who died/killed/murderd in medieval and later times were MPs when they died. Quite a few in the English civil war - including some captured and executed, IIRC.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Mrs RP has been on the phone to her mum. David Amess was a family friend, had done football coaching for my brother in laws when they were boys. Didn't deserve this.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
Jo Cox’ murderer got a whole life term - no possibility of parole.
This should be the same outcome irrespective of the motive.
That will depend on motivation, mental state and so on. Let's not get too far ahead of events and knowledge.
But I agree with those who say that an attack on an elected individual performing their duties should be considered an exacerbating factor in the same way that an attack on, say, a police officer would be.
Mental = life in a high-security hospital. Remember, the judge presiding over Jo Cox's murderer was very insistent that mental health had nothing to do with it.
Motivation. Well, short of it being revenge for something in Amess's personal life, there is no mitigating factor.
IIRC the evidence was the Jo Cox's murderer was fit to plead*, and motivated by being a violent neo-Nazi.
*He exhibited some nutty behaviours, but was judged responsible for his actions by various mental health experts.
To commit the act of political murder itself is a action no 'right thinking' individual would do. Regardless of other motivation.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
Is it not authoritative? I did wonder at the long gaps
Well, tons of people who died/killed/murderd in medieval and later times were MPs when they died. Quite a few in the English civil war - including some captured and executed, IIRC.
Sir David Amess MP stabbed multiple times at his surgery - Sky
Hope he makes a full recovery.
So Angela, is it OK to stab scum?
O-to scoring political point 5.7 secs. Not bad.
I wouldn't expect you to see a difference between point scoring and making.
If you label an entire political party as scum, you have to take some responsibility when some people see them as detached from upholding the right to express a contrary opinion to their own.
Angela Rayner's comment corroded democracy. Even more disgraceful when it was a cynical ploy for her personal ambition - to get above Starmer on the news cycle at the start of Conference.
If a Tory had called Labour "scum" a week before Jo Cox was murdered, do you think there would have been a restrained silence to link the two?
Exactly. Perfectly put. Jo Cox labelled scum two weeks before dying in her own blood in writhing pain like Sir David. That’s why what she done was so wrong, so dumb, so unparliamentary and not fit for her position. For personal ambition she stoked it up Trump style. And this is the horrific result of her mendacious stupidity.
This is just crap. The chances of there being any causal link direct or indirect between Raynor's comments and this awful event are pretty much zero and you certainly have no evidence of such a link.
There is an argument that politicians should be more temperate in their utterings. Now is really not the time.
You are wrong.
People in other political parties are not scum. They are democratic politicians who democratically argue for a policy position they believe in, with families who love them, and the voters trust them because they keep winning - and don’t trust Rayner and her nasty Labour colleagues, and on days like this you can understand why the electorate keep getting it right.
Your rival democratic colleagues are not scum.
Bit premature on the motivation of the stabber.
So you too effectively support Rayners divisive Trumpesque language, and are telling us there is absolutely no correlation between divisive language of hate and any violent actions?
Really?
Rayner is vile. She was using rhetoric designed to play to her base, her supporters. Doubled down on her stupidity. Yet she was effusive with praise and posted highly dignified comments when James Brokenshire died. Awful person, she is.
I don't think she's an awful person. She epitomises the views of some on the left of her party. She genuinely thinks she is morally superior to those on the right. Corbyn was awash with this. Did you really believe that her tweet re Brokenshire was genuine?
Jo Cox’ murderer got a whole life term - no possibility of parole.
This should be the same outcome irrespective of the motive.
That will depend on motivation, mental state and so on. Let's not get too far ahead of events and knowledge.
But I agree with those who say that an attack on an elected individual performing their duties should be considered an exacerbating factor in the same way that an attack on, say, a police officer would be.
Mental = life in a high-security hospital. Remember, the judge presiding over Jo Cox's murderer was very insistent that mental health had nothing to do with it.
Motivation. Well, short of it being revenge for something in Amess's personal life, there is no mitigating factor.
IIRC the evidence was the Jo Cox's murderer was fit to plead*, and motivated by being a violent neo-Nazi.
*He exhibited some nutty behaviours, but was judged responsible for his actions by various mental health experts.
To commit the act of political murder itself is a action no 'right thinking' individual would do. Regardless of other motivation.
The problem is that leads to the medicalisation of everything.
I agree with a friend, who practised psychiatry for a number of years. She assessed some very hard core individuals - murderers among them.
She was quite clear that there are plenty of fit-to-plead people who will do horrible things. And refused to assess everyone who did horrible things as unfit to plead - though this upset their lawyers, no end.
Wiki is "was" already. Always taken aback by the speed of that. I was confirming my recollection that David Amess = the Tory MP whose beaming face and result in 92 first told us that Major had unexpectedly won. So, no place in my heart, but what a truly terrible thing to happen.
Wow, stunning lack of grace there.
In what way? I wasn't conscious of writing anything bad
Mentioning the main thing I recall him for, you mean? The 92 election?
"no place in my heart" sounds COLD
Ah, I see. No, that was turn-of-phrase "no place in my heart" not an expression of genuine personal dislike. But, ok, if it looks to anybody like I was saying, "Jesus, terrible news but ..." then I've expressed myself poorly. This is a shocking and sad event. That's my feeling about it and my only feeling. But anyway -
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
And in doing so they insult a massive chunk of the electorate.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
And apparently the person playing silly buggers is you Blanche.
Is it not authoritative? I did wonder at the long gaps
Well, tons of people who died/killed/murderd in medieval and later times were MPs when they died. Quite a few in the English civil war - including some captured and executed, IIRC.
42 MPs died in service during WW1 and WW2.
Quite a few died executed by their political enemies in the wider Civil Wars of Britain and Ireland, to extend Malmesbury's point - right down to the aftermath of the '45 rising. Being killed by what they saw as an illegitimate regime might be counted as assassination.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
And apparently the person playing silly buggers is you Blanche.
Eh? Have you followed the link to Yvette's tweet? It's still there
Mrs RP has been on the phone to her mum. David Amess was a family friend, had done football coaching for my brother in laws when they were boys. Didn't deserve this.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
The right thing would be for it to be uncontested.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
And apparently the person playing silly buggers is you Blanche.
Eh? Have you followed the link to Yvette's tweet? It's still there
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
The right thing would be for it to be uncontested.
As per Batley and Spen, we have a convention now it seems.
Might well be Belfairs Woods, just round the corner from where he was murdered, and of which I have several happy memories. "In another country, and beside....."
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
The right thing would be for it to be uncontested.
Felt wrong in 2016, but you can see why it happened. Sadly, I can actually remember saying "hopefully we don't get to find out too quickly if the gesture would be reciprocated."
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
The right thing would be for it to be uncontested.
As per Batley and Spen, we have a convention now it seems.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
And apparently the person playing silly buggers is you Blanche.
Eh? Have you followed the link to Yvette's tweet? It's still there
Yes
I may have got confused (not for the first time lol) watching CNN
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
It was less hazardous to be a member of the ruling class in the Middle Ages. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/10/medieval-coasean-warfare.html ...between Waltheof’s demise in 1076 and Gaveston’s in 1312 not a single English earl, and indeed hardly a single baron, was executed (or murdered) in England for political reasons...
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
Hmm. Now is probably not the time to say this, but… well, re: yvette’s tweet - he was a bit of a dinosaur on social issues. Hardly “one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet” if you were lgbt.
His death is sad, tragic and shocking, but his record doesn’t deserve to be sugarcoated. He was profoundly wrong on some fundamental moral issues.
Anyway, I’m only arguing the point because of Yvette’s tweet.
The main thing to say is, what happened today is horrible. Thoughts with his wife, family and colleagues. RIP.
Wiki is "was" already. Always taken aback by the speed of that. I was confirming my recollection that David Amess = the Tory MP whose beaming face and result in 92 first told us that Major had unexpectedly won. So, no place in my heart, but what a truly terrible thing to happen.
Wow, stunning lack of grace there.
In what way? I wasn't conscious of writing anything bad
Mentioning the main thing I recall him for, you mean? The 92 election?
The people who have a place in their heart for him don't need to hear that you don't on the day he was murdered.
Ok but, again, it wasn't an expression of personal dislike of the man, it was just a reference to that iconic and painful moment for Labour supporters. And it was a post on PB not a private communication to his friends & family or some high profile public tweet of my reaction. That would've been a different matter, course it would!
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
That just got attiributed to Carries Johnson on CNN - so someone somewhere is playing silly buggers.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
The right thing would be for it to be uncontested.
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
Your comments this afternoon are an utter disgrace. I would argue with you, but I've got more respect for the tragic victim of an outrageous murder than to do so at the moment.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
What a massive c***. I think some people have just become completely bitter and delusional over Brexit. I think they really need mental help to recover.
Aaron Bastani @AaronBastani · 40m This is so dreadful. 2 politicians have now been murdered while trying to fulfil their duties as public officials. If they can't do that without fear of violent attack we lose a major part of being a free society.
Rest in peace David Amess
The right response like so many others. But the problem is that the role simply doesn't make it possible to defend yourself. When a London MP was stabbed (not fatally) while I was In parliament, my team and I debated whether we could do anything, and were basically stumped. A constituent asks to see you. Do you refuse? Put on armour? Have armed police standing next to you? We shook our heads and carried on.
Since we will never completely eliminate nutters in society, all we can really do is avoid using language about our opponents that encourages the nutters to think they are pursuing some rightful cause.
On MPs saying what nice guy/gal someone from an opposing party was when they sadly die:
It'd be nice if they did more of it whilst they were alive. And this goes for all members, from all parties. Perhaps MPs saying: "we disagree on issues, but she/he is a nice person." When they genuinely think that, of course.
It might help get some of the heat out of politics. Passion is good, but not when it crosses over into hatred.
A few years back, Radio 4 had a short series on MPs who were unlikely friends with MPs from other parties. ISTR Dennis Skinner was good friends with a Conservative after one helped the other whilst wheelchair bound.
(To his credit, Nick Palmer has praised Conservatives in unforced circumstances on may occasions.)
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
Hmm. Now is probably not the time to say this, but… well, re: yvette’s tweet - he was a bit of a dinosaur on social issues. Hardly “one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet” if you were lgbt.
His death is sad, tragic and shocking, but his record doesn’t deserve to be sugarcoated. He was profoundly wrong on some fundamental moral issues. .
Kinder politics. Man is dead. Let’s kick his corpse.
Of course he can be kind and friendly and have different views. I doubt he went out of his way to be unkind to LGBT community.
Granddaughter-in-law may well be trying to get home from the school where she teaches along that very road at the moment. Wonder how snarled up the traffic is. It's a bit of a mess round there.
It was less hazardous to be a member of the ruling class in the Middle Ages. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/10/medieval-coasean-warfare.html ...between Waltheof’s demise in 1076 and Gaveston’s in 1312 not a single English earl, and indeed hardly a single baron, was executed (or murdered) in England for political reasons...
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
"if the assailant..."
"If" being the operative word. How do we know the killer isn't a right wing nutter who didn't think Brexit was pure enough?
Jo Cox’ murderer got a whole life term - no possibility of parole.
This should be the same outcome irrespective of the motive.
That will depend on motivation, mental state and so on. Let's not get too far ahead of events and knowledge.
But I agree with those who say that an attack on an elected individual performing their duties should be considered an exacerbating factor in the same way that an attack on, say, a police officer would be.
Mental = life in a high-security hospital. Remember, the judge presiding over Jo Cox's murderer was very insistent that mental health had nothing to do with it.
Motivation. Well, short of it being revenge for something in Amess's personal life, there is no mitigating factor.
Sir David Amess MP stabbed multiple times at his surgery - Sky
Hope he makes a full recovery.
So Angela, is it OK to stab scum?
O-to scoring political point 5.7 secs. Not bad.
I wouldn't expect you to see a difference between point scoring and making.
If you label an entire political party as scum, you have to take some responsibility when some people see them as detached from upholding the right to express a contrary opinion to their own.
Angela Rayner's comment corroded democracy. Even more disgraceful when it was a cynical ploy for her personal ambition - to get above Starmer on the news cycle at the start of Conference.
If a Tory had called Labour "scum" a week before Jo Cox was murdered, do you think there would have been a restrained silence to link the two?
Exactly. Perfectly put. Jo Cox labelled scum two weeks before dying in her own blood in writhing pain like Sir David. That’s why what she done was so wrong, so dumb, so unparliamentary and not fit for her position. For personal ambition she stoked it up Trump style. And this is the horrific result of her mendacious stupidity.
This is just crap. The chances of there being any causal link direct or indirect between Raynor's comments and this awful event are pretty much zero and you certainly have no evidence of such a link.
There is an argument that politicians should be more temperate in their utterings. Now is really not the time.
The whole of our political infrastructure deserves far more protection than it gets. That is physical protection, but also protection by the law from those who spew hate towards others in legitimate political parties. Anybody who labels as "scum" an entire political party, its MPs, its membership, its voters that has made the case to the electorate and received backing with an 80 seat majority - that person is stupidly reinforcing that it is right to say whatever to whoever.
I'm not saying Rayner is responsible for the attack on Sir David Amess. I'm saying she is partly responsible for poisoning the well in which the democratic process tries to operate. Much as her apologists might aggressively try to deny that.
Would that include all the Brexiteers that call people traitors and quislings? Or the Daily Mail headline writers that describe judges as "enemies of the people"?
Or Remainers who label Leavers as thick and ignorant or xenophobes and racists? Get off your high horse and stop trying to score political points over such issues.
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
"if the assailant..."
"If" being the operative word. How do we know the killer isn't a right wing nutter who didn't think Brexit was pure enough?
Hold your fire I say.
Yes, exactly. We can’t comment until we know only speculate and that is far from helpful. It’s best to wait until the facts emerge.
Wiki is "was" already. Always taken aback by the speed of that. I was confirming my recollection that David Amess = the Tory MP whose beaming face and result in 92 first told us that Major had unexpectedly won. So, no place in my heart, but what a truly terrible thing to happen.
Wow, stunning lack of grace there.
In what way? I wasn't conscious of writing anything bad
Mentioning the main thing I recall him for, you mean? The 92 election?
The people who have a place in their heart for him don't need to hear that you don't on the day he was murdered.
Ok but, again, it wasn't an expression of personal dislike of the man, it was just a reference to that iconic and painful moment for Labour supporters. And it was a post on PB not a private communication to his friends & family or some high profile public tweet of my reaction. That would've been a different matter, course it would!
PB is public. We have a disproportionate number of people involved in politics here, so there's a greater chance of there being people who know him. There are times when it is best to be a bit more careful.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
More than that he is whole insensitive and it is inexcusable no matter what his political views are
Why pick on Femi when his Labour Party friends support him in the following comments, taking this moment to remind us “ that Amess supports the return of capital punishment and wants to ban abortions.” Don’t forget that, comrades.
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
Not all of them.
@YvetteCooperMP Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
Hmm. Now is probably not the time to say this, but… well, re: yvette’s tweet - he was a bit of a dinosaur on social issues. Hardly “one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet” if you were lgbt.
His death is sad, tragic and shocking, but his record doesn’t deserve to be sugarcoated. He was profoundly wrong on some fundamental moral issues.
Anyway, I’m only arguing the point because of Yvette’s tweet.
The main thing to say is, what happened today is horrible. Thoughts with his wife, family and colleagues. RIP.
Not the time to say it ......but you can't resist saying it.
On MPs saying what nice guy/gal someone from an opposing party was when they sadly die:
It'd be nice if they did more of it whilst they were alive. And this goes for all members, from all parties. Perhaps MPs saying: "we disagree on issues, but she/he is a nice person." When they genuinely think that, of course.
It might help get some of the heat out of politics. Passion is good, but not when it crosses over into hatred.
A few years back, Radio 4 had a short series on MPs who were unlikely friends with MPs from other parties. ISTR Dennis Skinner was good friends with a Conservative after one helped the other whilst wheelchair bound.
(To his credit, Nick Palmer has praised Conservatives in unforced circumstances on may occasions.)
I remember Mhairi Black being full of praise for Jacob Rees Mogg after he went out of his way to help her when she first came to Parliament. She even praised him in her maiden speech. Sadly 3 years later she described him as 'vile' so clearly their friendship had not lasted.
On MPs saying what nice guy/gal someone from an opposing party was when they sadly die:
It'd be nice if they did more of it whilst they were alive. And this goes for all members, from all parties. Perhaps MPs saying: "we disagree on issues, but she/he is a nice person." When they genuinely think that, of course.
It might help get some of the heat out of politics. Passion is good, but not when it crosses over into hatred.
A few years back, Radio 4 had a short series on MPs who were unlikely friends with MPs from other parties. ISTR Dennis Skinner was good friends with a Conservative after one helped the other whilst wheelchair bound.
(To his credit, Nick Palmer has praised Conservatives in unforced circumstances on may occasions.)
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Other than maybe Roger everyone of all political persuasions has been very sympathetic and kind on here this afternoon IMO.
I will say that since Rayner's rant IDS has been hit over the head with a traffic cone with people jeering "tory scum" at him and now a Tory MP has now been murdered.
Of course these events might be completely unconnected but if people can stop looking at each other as "scum" "traitors" "quislings" "xenaphobes" "c****, etc, etc it would be far better for public life irrespective of what the exact motive is for this appalling murder.
As @Leon says we all need to dial down rhetoric and calm down (and yes I include myself in that)
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
Not at all sure but I think I might remember you now under a previous posting name which also might have started with a G? You were quite measured on most things but on Israel/Palestine you were really 'out there'. Would that be right?
Wiki is "was" already. Always taken aback by the speed of that. I was confirming my recollection that David Amess = the Tory MP whose beaming face and result in 92 first told us that Major had unexpectedly won. So, no place in my heart, but what a truly terrible thing to happen.
Wow, stunning lack of grace there.
In what way? I wasn't conscious of writing anything bad
Mentioning the main thing I recall him for, you mean? The 92 election?
"no place in my heart" sounds COLD
Ah, I see. No, that was turn-of-phrase "no place in my heart" not an expression of genuine personal dislike. But, ok, if it looks to anybody like I was saying, "Jesus, terrible news but ..." then I've expressed myself poorly. This is a shocking and sad event. That's my feeling about it and my only feeling. But anyway -
I thought that was the case, and wouldn't have mentioned it - but you did seem rather taken aback that anyone could see anything at all wrong in what you'd posted. I thought I'd point out the bit that I thought sounded rather cold, considering the guy has just been brutally murdered.
Okay, I concede, we don’t yet know if the assassin shouted die Tory Scum, or die Israeli loving scum as he knifed.
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
"if the assailant..."
"If" being the operative word. How do we know the killer isn't a right wing nutter who didn't think Brexit was pure enough?
Hold your fire I say.
Yes, exactly. We can’t comment until we know only speculate and that is far from helpful. It’s best to wait until the facts emerge.
Its also worth remembering that whether this man is a right wing Brexit purist lunatic, a left wing anti-Brexit lunatic or someone who just hates MPs, he is, first and foremost, a murderous lunatic and has sweet FA to do with 99.99% of those people who hold any of those views. If it did turn out he was doing this because of Brexit (for example) it would not make me think any less of even the most vehement anti-Brexiteer on here or elsewhere. Murderous lunatics represent no one but themselves.
Stabbing is such a horrific way to die. I hope the perpetrator feels the full force of the law.
I appreciate that this is too early, but somehow I hope this is a catalyst for change. Far too many people die from stabbings in the UK. It is utterly essential that MPs can do their work with confidence and without fear.
@Femi_Sorry Before Boris Johnson does his tweet about the disgusting attack on Tory MP David Amess... saying how he's outraged about how violence has infected our politics.
Please remember that he was happy to use death threats as a tool to try to get Jo Cox's successor to support Brexit.
I don't know how you improve the security for MPs without getting rid of the constituency surgery (which might just drive the nutters to try other places instead). You could frisk people on their way in but that could be intimidating to a lot of people and wouldn't help with attacks outside the building. A depressing situation where there is no good answer.
Sir David Amess MP stabbed multiple times at his surgery - Sky
Hope he makes a full recovery.
So Angela, is it OK to stab scum?
O-to scoring political point 5.7 secs. Not bad.
I wouldn't expect you to see a difference between point scoring and making.
If you label an entire political party as scum, you have to take some responsibility when some people see them as detached from upholding the right to express a contrary opinion to their own.
Angela Rayner's comment corroded democracy. Even more disgraceful when it was a cynical ploy for her personal ambition - to get above Starmer on the news cycle at the start of Conference.
If a Tory had called Labour "scum" a week before Jo Cox was murdered, do you think there would have been a restrained silence to link the two?
Exactly. Perfectly put. Jo Cox labelled scum two weeks before dying in her own blood in writhing pain like Sir David. That’s why what she done was so wrong, so dumb, so unparliamentary and not fit for her position. For personal ambition she stoked it up Trump style. And this is the horrific result of her mendacious stupidity.
This is just crap. The chances of there being any causal link direct or indirect between Raynor's comments and this awful event are pretty much zero and you certainly have no evidence of such a link.
There is an argument that politicians should be more temperate in their utterings. Now is really not the time.
The whole of our political infrastructure deserves far more protection than it gets. That is physical protection, but also protection by the law from those who spew hate towards others in legitimate political parties. Anybody who labels as "scum" an entire political party, its MPs, its membership, its voters that has made the case to the electorate and received backing with an 80 seat majority - that person is stupidly reinforcing that it is right to say whatever to whoever.
I'm not saying Rayner is responsible for the attack on Sir David Amess. I'm saying she is partly responsible for poisoning the well in which the democratic process tries to operate. Much as her apologists might aggressively try to deny that.
For me the lack of protection for our political infrastructure is one of its best aspects. It is great that MPs and Ministers mix so freely with the rest of us and are not a class apart. But it becomes increasingly difficult to keep this going after incidents like this. Just as airport security has sucked all the joy out of flying we may find that an essential part of our democracy gets sucked out of surgeries, attendances at fetes etc.
This is not just murder by a presumably deranged inadequate, it is an attack on a very important part of our democracy. It is a very sad day.
I really do not want to engage on such a day on your more specific point. Raynor was foolish to say what she did but I really do not think it is appropriate to try to score a point about this today.
I am not opposed, in principal, to people raising what may be an uncomfortable point in the midst of tragedy. Sometimes you need that, lest a vital point be lost as people proclaim it is 'not the time' to say something divisive - talking about gun control after a massacre being a case in point, where it might be uncomfortable and political to raise it, but it also still appropriate to say more than thoughts and prayers because if not then, when?
But lacking known direct connection there is no such urgency to so comment here, not least as very few had defended such commentary in the first place. That debate will not be advanced by having it now, in fact it may hinder it.
Comments
I hope, if you read my post again, you will see that.
https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1449020652812439552?s=20
When I was at university, an idiot tried to frame someone as being a racist, by faking emails.
Fortunately he was a moron, and trivially caught. He was chucked out of the university.
It turned out that it was politically motivated - he had taken literally the rhetoric that some in the political society he belonged to, used. Due to a quirk in his personality, he seems to take everything literally.
He actually, at the Student Union hearing* on this, shouted "But she's a XXXXX - why are you doing this to me?"
*Given that he was about to be kicked out of University, the Student Union assembled a panel to decide whether we should intervene and what we should do.
@AaronBastani
·
40m
This is so dreadful. 2 politicians have now been murdered while trying to fulfil their duties as public officials. If they can't do that without fear of violent attack we lose a major part of being a free society.
Rest in peace David Amess
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated
It isn't hard to do
No Facebook either
And Instagram gone, too
*He exhibited some nutty behaviours, but was judged responsible for his actions by various mental health experts.
@montie
·
27m
Grateful to media organisations asking for tribute to David Amess MP but, with apologies, not today please.
RIP Sir David Amess
It’s more than feeling no human compassion in their hearts. The Labour Party has a problem at every level in how they view their democratic political colleagues sitting opposite. And a weak weak leader who does nothing about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3Mrfut-FSw
@YvetteCooperMP
Just devastating news. David Amess was one of the kindest, friendliest people you could meet. Completely dedicated to serving his constituency, involved in so many causes & important work on animal welfare. But above all, just kind and keen to help others. We will all miss him
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1449024636893728793
I agree with a friend, who practised psychiatry for a number of years. She assessed some very hard core individuals - murderers among them.
She was quite clear that there are plenty of fit-to-plead people who will do horrible things. And refused to assess everyone who did horrible things as unfit to plead - though this upset their lawyers, no end.
If the media are in that kind of attitude - I may as well say - By-election
In 2015 David Amess was awarded a knighthood for political and public service. How did the newly-knighted Sir David celebrate?
He got dressed up and released this brilliant photo https://echo-news.co.uk/news/13374797.this-photograph-of-southend-mp-sir-david-amess-dressed-as-a-knight-is-brilliant/
https://twitter.com/christiancalgie/status/1449019625027645447
https://twitter.com/ReutersUK/status/1449027375069597701?s=20
The would is a poorer place without him.
These things are profoundly disturbing because they also attack our democracy.
I’m not impressed with those referring back to Angela Rayner at all. You know who you are.
Thoughts and prayers with family, friends and colleagues.
"In another country, and beside....."
Here's Mrs Johnson's tweet-
https://twitter.com/carrielbjohnson/status/1449013558050758659?s=20
ETA, just seen your post above
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2021/10/medieval-coasean-warfare.html
...between Waltheof’s demise in 1076 and Gaveston’s in 1312 not a single English earl, and indeed hardly a single baron, was executed (or murdered) in England for political reasons...
His death is sad, tragic and shocking, but his record doesn’t deserve to be sugarcoated. He was profoundly wrong on some fundamental moral issues.
Anyway, I’m only arguing the point because of Yvette’s tweet.
The main thing to say is, what happened today is horrible. Thoughts with his wife, family and colleagues. RIP.
The question is, why can’t you?
But we can comment and call out how Labour members and tribal supporters on social media, on this thread, are responding this afternoon without any compassion in their hearts or any unspun respect for a murdered democratic opponent, and, if the assailant had shouted die Israeli supporting scum, it’s clear which party has radicalised him is it not?
Instead of working towards presenting a realistic and trustable manifesto at the last election, the Labour Party spent years draping the Palestinian flag in everybody’s faces. If Cocky Pidcock wants to know why she lost, that’s why she lost.
My thoughts with his family at this deeply sad time.
Since we will never completely eliminate nutters in society, all we can really do is avoid using language about our opponents that encourages the nutters to think they are pursuing some rightful cause.
It'd be nice if they did more of it whilst they were alive. And this goes for all members, from all parties. Perhaps MPs saying: "we disagree on issues, but she/he is a nice person." When they genuinely think that, of course.
It might help get some of the heat out of politics. Passion is good, but not when it crosses over into hatred.
A few years back, Radio 4 had a short series on MPs who were unlikely friends with MPs from other parties. ISTR Dennis Skinner was good friends with a Conservative after one helped the other whilst wheelchair bound.
(To his credit, Nick Palmer has praised Conservatives in unforced circumstances on may occasions.)
Of course he can be kind and friendly and have different views. I doubt he went out of his way to be unkind to LGBT community.
"If" being the operative word. How do we know the killer isn't a right wing nutter who didn't think Brexit was pure enough?
Hold your fire I say.
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/15/uk-poised-to-confirm-funding-for-mini-nuclear-reactors-for-green-energy
I will say that since Rayner's rant IDS has been hit over the head with a traffic cone with people jeering "tory scum" at him and now a Tory MP has now been murdered.
Of course these events might be completely unconnected but if people can stop looking at each other as "scum" "traitors" "quislings" "xenaphobes" "c****, etc, etc it would be far better for public life irrespective of what the exact motive is for this appalling murder.
As @Leon says we all need to dial down rhetoric and calm down (and yes I include myself in that)
I appreciate that this is too early, but somehow I hope this is a catalyst for change. Far too many people die from stabbings in the UK. It is utterly essential that MPs can do their work with confidence and without fear.
But lacking known direct connection there is no such urgency to so comment here, not least as very few had defended such commentary in the first place. That debate will not be advanced by having it now, in fact it may hinder it.