Off topic: Anyone got any ideas why the UK is persistently seeing a rate of covid deaths per million nearly triple those seen in France, Germany and Italy?
We constantly hear this, yet the UK is quite middling on the excess death tracker. It suggests differences in reporting more than anything.
I searched Our World in Data for this information. According to the comparison of current excess mortality versus the average for the five years pre-Covid, and looking at the most recent comparable weekly figures published (for September 26th,) England & Wales had excess mortality of 15% above the long-term trend, whereas the comparable figure for Germany was 10%. Now, these numbers to fluctuate a fair bit - earlier in the Spring and Summer we were often doing rather better than other large European states on this metric; at the moment we're doing a bit worse - but, in any even, it's not exactly a yawning chasm.
You also have to wonder what will happen when the heavier restrictions in place in various continental countries, particularly enforcing masks all over the place, are lifted - assuming that this ever happens. To the extent that they are outperforming the UK, will this simply be undone as soon as they let go of public health impositions? I would imagine that most or all of Western Europe has now hit the wall of vaccine refusal, most of the remaining refusers are going to dig their heels in, and the disease ain't going to go away. So, to what extent are face gags actually saving anyone outright, like one can plausibly argue they might've been doing before or during the bulk vaccination programmes, and to what extent are they now merely delaying the inevitable?
Delay is a good thing. Look how many drugs have now been proven to reduce severity of illness and / or the mortality rate.
Catching Covid today is better than having caught it last year. And next year will be better still. Of course, the antivaxxers can do themselves a bigger favour by getting jabbed.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
Another one on the radio I've just remembered was Lindsay Hoyle. Obviously as Speaker he had to answer the questions about MP safety, as it is I believe part of his remit, but was sure to make time to be similarly effusive in praise of Amess as an absolute Gent.
What Hoyle also made sure to stress was his own determined defiance of this danger they live with. Saying we can not be cowed into changing the principle of how we do politics in this country - our elected representatives must remain accessible. He's doing his constituency surgery this evening, because if he didn't, he'd let the nutter win.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Deborah Haynes @haynesdeborah · 34m I understand the 25-year-old man who has been arrested in connection with the killing of Sir David Ames is a British national.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
Indeed. Been listening to tales of his works for animal rights and work with children with learning difficulties. And of his popularity across the aisle and personal kindness. Like Jo Cox, it might be useful to hear such stuff before their deaths.
I think all I knew of David Amess before today was that he was a backbench Eurosceptic Tory MP.
Perhaps the Good News TV programme could have a segment where opposing politicians praise each other?
We did that on PB one Christmas - we all had the challenge of saying something positive about someone who we totally disagreed with (and cheating by saying "I love his idiocy" and the like was not counted). Some surprising tributes came up and it was a pretty good Christmas experience.
Nick, I often meant to ask you that - which MPs from other parties you most enjoyed their company?
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
Off topic: Anyone got any ideas why the UK is persistently seeing a rate of covid deaths per million nearly triple those seen in France, Germany and Italy?
We constantly hear this, yet the UK is quite middling on the excess death tracker. It suggests differences in reporting more than anything.
I searched Our World in Data for this information. According to the comparison of current excess mortality versus the average for the five years pre-Covid, and looking at the most recent comparable weekly figures published (for September 26th,) England & Wales had excess mortality of 15% above the long-term trend, whereas the comparable figure for Germany was 10%. Now, these numbers to fluctuate a fair bit - earlier in the Spring and Summer we were often doing rather better than other large European states on this metric; at the moment we're doing a bit worse - but, in any even, it's not exactly a yawning chasm.
You also have to wonder what will happen when the heavier restrictions in place in various continental countries, particularly enforcing masks all over the place, are lifted - assuming that this ever happens. To the extent that they are outperforming the UK, will this simply be undone as soon as they let go of public health impositions? I would imagine that most or all of Western Europe has now hit the wall of vaccine refusal, most of the remaining refusers are going to dig their heels in, and the disease ain't going to go away. So, to what extent are face gags actually saving anyone outright, like one can plausibly argue they might've been doing before or during the bulk vaccination programmes, and to what extent are they now merely delaying the inevitable?
Delay is a good thing. Look how many drugs have now been proven to reduce severity of illness and / or the mortality rate.
Catching Covid today is better than having caught it last year. And next year will be better still. Of course, the antivaxxers can do themselves a bigger favour by getting jabbed.
Delay may very well help, but the extent to which it does so at this stage of affairs is questionable. And we always come back to the question of when we let go of the rules. Arguing that keeping them buys time to develop better treatments is effectively an argument for leaving them in place forever.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
The thing is there really isnt though, not in this country. A city is just a place called a city. They aren't of a required size, they don't have specific amenities, they dont all have cathedrals etc.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
I see Sir David was active on twitter. His pinned tweet? Advertising his constituency surgery.
Southend to become a City would be a fitting tribute
I think that is a superb idea.
I'm going to contact my MP about it and encourage the rest of you to do the same.
It would be pretty cool if we could get that to actually happen from @isam 's post on PB!
Why ?
If Southend didn’t merit being awarded city status prior to this awful event why should it get it on the back of this atrocity.
1 - It already has an application in for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee collection of cities. 2 - And it has the longest pier in the UK. 3 - With a railway on it.
On this general topic, I had a quick look and there don't appear to be any Parliamentary petitions mentioning Southend at the moment...
And the pier is rather marvellous.
Reflecting, I think the most appropriate way (which may not happen ) would be a cross-party EDM.
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
Paula Sherriff, former labour MP, is effusive in her praise for him too.
But he’s a bad man according to one poster here as he was not on message in LGBT issues.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
I cheated. I'd never have guessed it.
On cities, I'm sure I recall seeing 'City Centre' signs in Reading about 15 years ago though it wasn't, and still isn't, a city, despite prodigious size. See also Swindon.
I've always thought that MPs should be paid more, to open it up as a competitive option to more people, and encourage a higher level of knowledge, intelligence, education and wisdom into the top end end of the applicants.
But it's actually now a seriously perilous job. How many other professions have had 1 in 325 of their number murdered in the last 5 years?
The danger money alone should be higher than their current salary.
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
Paula Sherriff, former labour MP, is effusive in her praise for him too.
But he’s a bad man according to one poster here as he was not on message in LGBT issues.
This is sort of the point - we are hearing this cross-bench praise now he’s been brutally murdered - it seems like the only acceptable statement for god knows how long about an opposition MP has to be criticism rather than room for praise.
Imagine a discourse where MPs say “I don’t agree with Bob on this point but I know he cares deeply as I know he’s involved with x charity on the matter”. Instead it’s just mud slinging for the cameras even if behind the scenes they might be very happy to laugh over a beer in a commons bar.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Is it Northampton perchance? They did stand alongside Oxford and Cambridge as university towns one time before rioting.
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
The people who need to be shaken out of their dangerous lunacy - the angry about everything mob - wouldn't be interested.
Some years ago, a significant number of our fellow citizens reacted to the news of the death of a former Prime Minister after a prolonged struggle with dementia by holding riotous street parties and propelling "Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead" to the top of the singles chart.
One rather doubts that matters have improved since.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
Indeed. Been listening to tales of his works for animal rights and work with children with learning difficulties. And of his popularity across the aisle and personal kindness. Like Jo Cox, it might be useful to hear such stuff before their deaths.
I think all I knew of David Amess before today was that he was a backbench Eurosceptic Tory MP.
Perhaps the Good News TV programme could have a segment where opposing politicians praise each other?
We did that on PB one Christmas - we all had the challenge of saying something positive about someone who we totally disagreed with (and cheating by saying "I love his idiocy" and the like was not counted). Some surprising tributes came up and it was a pretty good Christmas experience.
Nick, I often meant to ask you that - which MPs from other parties you most enjoyed their company?
I like Oliver Letwin more than any other MP, past or present - gentle, clever, thoughtful, honest and always ready to consider he might be wrong. The only MP I ever encountered who would listen to the arguments against an amendment he was proposing and withdraw it if they persuade him.
Ken Clarke is always good value - very much in private as he is in public.
Zac Goldsmith is great on animal welfare and the environment - seriously interested in both.
Michael Gove isn't cuddly but he's always interesting and again open-minded and willintg to listen.
John Hayes is very much a party man, but kind to other MPs, occasionally giving them genuinely useful tips unrelated to party interest
Norman Lamb was my favourite LibDem - always mellow and friendly, however stressful the situation.
Caroline Lucas is another MP who is exactly as it says on the tin - genuinely keen on what she does.
I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that spring to mind.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
I cheated. I'd never have guessed it.
On cities, I'm sure I recall seeing 'City Centre' signs in Reading about 15 years ago though it wasn't, and still isn't, a city, despite prodigious size. See also Swindon.
The thing which amuses me greatly is that city status was lost in an administrative oversight.
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
Indeed. Been listening to tales of his works for animal rights and work with children with learning difficulties. And of his popularity across the aisle and personal kindness. Like Jo Cox, it might be useful to hear such stuff before their deaths.
I think all I knew of David Amess before today was that he was a backbench Eurosceptic Tory MP.
Perhaps the Good News TV programme could have a segment where opposing politicians praise each other?
We did that on PB one Christmas - we all had the challenge of saying something positive about someone who we totally disagreed with (and cheating by saying "I love his idiocy" and the like was not counted). Some surprising tributes came up and it was a pretty good Christmas experience.
Nick, I often meant to ask you that - which MPs from other parties you most enjoyed their company?
I like Oliver Letwin more than any other MP, past or present - gentle, clever, thoughtful, honest and always ready to consider he might be wrong. The only MP I ever encountered who would listen to the arguments against an amendment he was proposing and withdraw it if they persuade him.
Ken Clarke is always good value - very much in private as he is in public.
Zac Goldsmith is great on animal welfare and the environment - seriously interested in both.
Michael Gove isn't cuddly but he's always interesting and again open-minded and willintg to listen.
John Hayes is very much a party man, but kind to other MPs, occasionally giving them genuinely useful tips unrelated to party interest
Norman Lamb was my favourite LibDem - always mellow and friendly, however stressful the situation.
Caroline Lucas is another MP who is exactly as it says on the tin - genuinely keen on what she does.
I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that spring to mind.
To your credit you have been willing to say nice things about them outside of tragic events like today prompting it.
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
Rochester I think - because they forgot to assign the City Charter to the town/parish council when Medway became a unitary authority? Something like that anyway
Just back from my drive home, and how I wish my R4 & 5 listening could have again been filled with inane chat about Adele's new song..
The tributes that I listened to instead for Sir David Amess were heart breaking in their seemingly absolute sincerity. I can't remember everyone I heard speak so fondly about him, but every single one did. The local leaders of the RC & CoE churches were on at the same time, and both deeply saddened by the loss of someone they knew they could rely on to seriously and compassionately engage with them.
Yvette Cooper was on, and rightly refusing to be dragged into the presenter's annoying questions about MP safety policy, insisting that she get the chance to express her sadness and let everybody know what a decent man we've lost.
The most moving for me, though, was a recording of Tim Montgomerie talking about him. Apparently Tim has been having mental health issues and Sir David called him up to check on him a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. Tim said "Yeah fine", Amess wouldn't let it drop and continued to gently probe on it (while making lots of silly jokes to try to keep the mood light and spirits up), and Tim admitted he had been in a really dark place but was feeling better. David then insisted that Tim call him if he gets in that dark place again. Tim agrees David makes him promise. Montgomerie sounded in tears when he said, "I did, but now I won't be able to"
Indeed. Been listening to tales of his works for animal rights and work with children with learning difficulties. And of his popularity across the aisle and personal kindness. Like Jo Cox, it might be useful to hear such stuff before their deaths.
I think all I knew of David Amess before today was that he was a backbench Eurosceptic Tory MP.
Perhaps the Good News TV programme could have a segment where opposing politicians praise each other?
We did that on PB one Christmas - we all had the challenge of saying something positive about someone who we totally disagreed with (and cheating by saying "I love his idiocy" and the like was not counted). Some surprising tributes came up and it was a pretty good Christmas experience.
Nick, I often meant to ask you that - which MPs from other parties you most enjoyed their company?
I like Oliver Letwin more than any other MP, past or present - gentle, clever, thoughtful, honest and always ready to consider he might be wrong. The only MP I ever encountered who would listen to the arguments against an amendment he was proposing and withdraw it if they persuade him.
Ken Clarke is always good value - very much in private as he is in public.
Zac Goldsmith is great on animal welfare and the environment - seriously interested in both.
Michael Gove isn't cuddly but he's always interesting and again open-minded and willintg to listen.
John Hayes is very much a party man, but kind to other MPs, occasionally giving them genuinely useful tips unrelated to party interest
Norman Lamb was my favourite LibDem - always mellow and friendly, however stressful the situation.
Caroline Lucas is another MP who is exactly as it says on the tin - genuinely keen on what she does.
I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that spring to mind.
Were you in parliament when Tony Benn was around? I used to regard him as the arch-enemy, but I always thought that he was the MP who I most respected.
I've always thought that MPs should be paid more, to open it up as a competitive option to more people, and encourage a higher level of knowledge, intelligence, education and wisdom into the top end end of the applicants.
But it's actually now a seriously perilous job. How many other professions have had 1 in 325 of their number murdered in the last 5 years?
The danger money alone should be higher than their current salary.
Insofar as I can establish, the number of UK armed forces personnel killed on operational duty has been averaging about 1 or 2 per year since 2015. In proportionate terms, that makes the casualty rate for serving Parliamentarians over recent years vastly higher than that for serving soldiers.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
We are 3 weeks since an MP suggested sending a pipe bomb. But that's OK cos he apologised.
Deborah Haynes @haynesdeborah · 24m Update on this: The suspect is a British citizen with Somali heritage. It is not yet clear (from folk I've been in contact with at least) whether he also holds dual Somali citizenship. Will update when that does become clear.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
She’s a comedian. It was a joke not a serious comment.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
We are 3 weeks since an MP suggested sending a pipe bomb. But that's OK cos he apologised.
Yeah, exactly. It should not be okay. It should be intolerable.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
She’s a comedian. It was a joke not a serious comment.
So political comedians can incite violence comedically?
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
She’s a comedian. It was a joke not a serious comment.
There are too many women disfigured by acid attacks in this country to put it in the box marked "just don't go there..."
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
She’s a comedian. It was a joke not a serious comment.
Oh, that's ok then. Actually, no it isn't. Because it came from exactly the same 'Tory scum' place as Angela Rayner's comments. It said for people we don't agree with beyond a certain point we have defined, assault is fine. She may not seriously have been advocating battery acid assaults. She certainly wasn't opposed to milk shake attacks.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Terrible news about David Amess. It will be a sad day if politicians can no longer have open surgeries, enjoy a social life or attend public events. A few thoughts. Murder of a politician should carry a mandatory life sentence. In the event that social media is found to have been a factor in Sir David’s death, there needs to be at least a public enquiry about the role of social media, and if necessary, legal controls on its use. City of Southend would be a fitting epitaph.
Were you in parliament when Tony Benn was around? I used to regard him as the arch-enemy, but I always thought that he was the MP who I most respected.
Yes, to be honest I wasn't a huge fan, though he was interesting and had excellent manners. When I knew him he was very much into wise older statesman role, and a little too pleased with himself, I thought. But I didn't know him well, and may have got the wrong impression.
On the Labour side my favourites were Ruth Kelly - very clever and successful but friendly and unassuming - Fabian Hamilton (just a really, really nice man), Jeremy Corbyn - modest and incapable of bitterness - and the late, flamboyant, lovable, and tragic Fiona jones, who I shared an office with. An eclectic selection!
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
We are 3 weeks since an MP suggested sending a pipe bomb. But that's OK cos he apologised.
It was a completely twattish thing to have said - and he doesn't get a free pass from me, even after the apology. He wouldn't get my vote at a reselection committee unless he'd done some SERIOUS heavy lifting in helping constituents.
The difference between him and Rayner is a) he was patently being a "comedic" twat with a glib quip and no sense that he meant it and b) he apologised, rather than doubling down.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
No.
I said it wasn’t at the time, but there were people on here willing to disagree at length
And then there was the blessed Jo Brand, saying why use milkshakes when there's battery acid? How the BBC laughed....
We are 3 weeks since an MP suggested sending a pipe bomb. But that's OK cos he apologised.
He did do it, he thought, privately.
But it's still unacceptable to have said it, even though I don't believe for a moment he wanted anybody to be incited into violent action by it.
I think it's similar to the Rayner "scum" stuff. They were both trying to appeal to their audience's basest instincts in a quite idiotic and undignified way, but neither was actually trying to incite violence.
Obviously there's the distinction that the pipe bomb threat was a violent threat, but it wasn't meant to be public and wasn't serious. Rayner's words weren't a threat in any way, but they were far more public, more sincerely felt, and so maybe more likely to cause violence.
I'd prefer it if both idiots stood down and we had two more byelections coming up, but I seriously doubt that'll happen.
Maybe they'll learn a lesson from Amess and become better constituency MPs, and perhaps start to treat their opponents with a lot more respect.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
No better way to demonstrate he's bad than by being better than him. Not supporting throwing things at politicians, who may rightly fear it is something deadly, would be a good start.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community?
I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
A quote directly from this exchange:
"It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious"
This has nothing to do with my views on immigration and everything to do with your trying to make political capital and score points out of the murder of a man.
Every time I think you have scraped the bottom you prove you can sink even lower.
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community?
I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
A quote directly from this exchange:
"It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious"
This has nothing to do with my views on immigration and everything to do with your trying to make political capital and score points out of the murder of a man.
Every time I think you have scraped the bottom you prove you can sink even lower.
'...and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.'
By that time it was already clear the counter terrorism unit had taken over.
I am not going to be guilt shamed by your ultra libertarian, ultra liberal, pro open borders policy into not stating the obvious on immigration. We need tighter border controls and greater emphasis on national security and screening of potential immigrants.
That is the only way to avoid future murders like the appalling murder of Sir David today, plus tighter security for MPs
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Both extreme sides in the political debate need to back off and calm down. Sadly some of them both get off on it (Rayner) and get votes from it (Farage).
Yes, the Nigel may well be a "Horrible Little Fascist". But that does not justify him being attacked. And a milkshake in the face is an attack.
The problem is the rhetoric. The Tories are scum. The forrin are invading. The judges are traitors. People excuse their side and condemn the other - time to condemn the lot.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community?
I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
A quote directly from this exchange:
"It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious"
This has nothing to do with my views on immigration and everything to do with your trying to make political capital and score points out of the murder of a man.
Every time I think you have scraped the bottom you prove you can sink even lower.
He is shocking especially as he is an elected representative of the conservative party
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Both extreme sides in the political debate need to back off and calm down. Sadly some of them both get off on it (Rayner) and get votes from it (Farage).
Yes, the Nigel may well be a "Horrible Little Fascist". But that does not justify him being attacked. And a milkshake in the face is an attack.
The problem is the rhetoric. The Tories are scum. The forrin are invading. The judges are traitors. People excuse their side and condemn the other - time to condemn the lot.
I think anyone using extreme language should be launched into the sun as a first offence.
But seriously, while the line between passionate debate with some scope for invective and a general tone that is increasingly bitter and violent can get muddy sometimes, it shouldn't be this hard to fall on the right side of it.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Off topic: Anyone got any ideas why the UK is persistently seeing a rate of covid deaths per million nearly triple those seen in France, Germany and Italy?
We constantly hear this, yet the UK is quite middling on the excess death tracker. It suggests differences in reporting more than anything.
I searched Our World in Data for this information. According to the comparison of current excess mortality versus the average for the five years pre-Covid, and looking at the most recent comparable weekly figures published (for September 26th,) England & Wales had excess mortality of 15% above the long-term trend, whereas the comparable figure for Germany was 10%. Now, these numbers to fluctuate a fair bit - earlier in the Spring and Summer we were often doing rather better than other large European states on this metric; at the moment we're doing a bit worse - but, in any even, it's not exactly a yawning chasm.
You also have to wonder what will happen when the heavier restrictions in place in various continental countries, particularly enforcing masks all over the place, are lifted - assuming that this ever happens. To the extent that they are outperforming the UK, will this simply be undone as soon as they let go of public health impositions? I would imagine that most or all of Western Europe has now hit the wall of vaccine refusal, most of the remaining refusers are going to dig their heels in, and the disease ain't going to go away. So, to what extent are face gags actually saving anyone outright, like one can plausibly argue they might've been doing before or during the bulk vaccination programmes, and to what extent are they now merely delaying the inevitable?
Death rates from Covid are, to a large extent, out the hands of politicians anyway.
How old is your population? How many intergenerational households do you have? (And how many single person ones?) How dependent is your population on public transport? How many cases were you seeded with, before you even knew you had a problem?
All those are going to have a massive effect on your overall death rates - probably above and beyond anything policy related.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
But we don't know that the accused isn't a member of the Conservative Party, or a donor to it, for that matter.
All you are achieving is prejudice - in more senses than one.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Your divisive comments tonight are just unacceptable and conservatives across the land will only be thinking of Sir David his family and friends
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
Terrible news about David Amess. It will be a sad day if politicians can no longer have open surgeries, enjoy a social life or attend public events. A few thoughts. Murder of a politician should carry a mandatory life sentence. In the event that social media is found to have been a factor in Sir David’s death, there needs to be at least a public enquiry about the role of social media, and if necessary, legal controls on its use. City of Southend would be a fitting epitaph.
I think that all murder carries a mandatory life sentence. This one will probably be another whole life order case, if there is found to be a political motivation. The problem however is that if you are radicalised, such a sentence will not act as a deterrent.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Your divisive comments tonight are just unacceptable and conservatives across the land will only be thinking of Sir David his family and friends
Shame on you
I have given plenty of condolences to Sir David and his family earlier.
However lessons must also be learnt to stop this terrible crime happening again.
You can bury your head in the sand about it and insult me if you like but crimes like this will not stop unless action is taken
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
The killing of this MP is awful, but aren't there certain objective criteria that should be applied before places are designated as cities?
In such exceptional circumstances, being bigger than Wells should be enough.
It's a common misconception that somewhere needs a 'thing' to be a city - a cathedral is what many people think, or a university. All it needs is a royal charter - that is, for the Queen to say that it's a city.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
You spread a very dangerous message that assaulting politicians is recompense for the hatefulness of their policies. Who decides if he deserves to be in fear through such an assault? Who decides if he deserves a bit more than that? Does that mean someone else might deserve a little beating? Some light terrorising?
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
But we don't know that the accused isn't a member of the Conservative Party, or a donor to it, for that matter.
All you are achieving is prejudice - in more senses than one.
All you are being is naive, in more ways than one.
All the news reports this evening are clear, this is likely a Jihadi terrorist and the police are also clear on that too
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
Your divisive comments tonight are just unacceptable and conservatives across the land will only be thinking of Sir David his family and friends
Shame on you
I have given plenty of condolences to Sir David and his family earlier.
However lessons must also be learnt to stop this terrible crime happening again.
You can bury your head in the sand about it and insult me if you like but crimes like this will not stop unless action is taken
I am not insulting you, I am telling you to stop making divisive and unsubstantiated comments
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
Yes. Horrible little fascist.
Do you honestly not see the link between you cheering the assault of a politician you dislike and another politician being murdered?
Actually no. Can you see the damage a politician producing a poster like this does to the life of immigrants? An egg over his head is a small price for the poison he has spread. What politicians do have consequences
I considered John Prescott a disreputable oaf who did considerably more harm than good. But I was on his side against that fella who through an egg at him, and also against that fella out of Chumbawamba who threw a bucket of water over him. You can't just physically attack people you don't agree with. Because, amongst many other reasons, you can't be sure you're rye one in the right.
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
Paula Sherriff, former labour MP, is effusive in her praise for him too.
But he’s a bad man according to one poster here as he was not on message in LGBT issues.
On message is a horrible phrase. Elected representatives should be able to express their opinions even if they're not "on message.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
But we don't know that the accused isn't a member of the Conservative Party, or a donor to it, for that matter.
All you are achieving is prejudice - in more senses than one.
All you are being is naive, in more ways than one.
All the news reports this evening are clear, this is likely a Jihadi terrorist and the police are also clear on that too
George Osborne @George_Osborne · 26m Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Stephen Timms is lucky to be alive as well.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
When Farage was getting milk shakes chucked at him at close range and his family were chased out of pubs & their car climbed on by Hope not Hate, it was all very funny though wasn’t it?
I do not wish to speculate about the motives of the individual responsible for this horrific crime but I think there was a sea change in attitudes towards MPs at the time of the expenses scandal out of all proportion to the wrongs that had been committed.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
No, I said what I thought was happening, and turned out to be wrong. Candidates quite often judge the mood incorrectly. I'm not disposed to argue the toss about who said what in 2015, but it is incorrect to say that I "made no bones about lying".
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It’s amazing reading - for example - the guardian’s live feed on him. He seems to have done so many “good things” (reading he was involved in a music charity for kids with learning difficulties amongst a miriad of other great things).
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
Paula Sherriff, former labour MP, is effusive in her praise for him too.
But he’s a bad man according to one poster here as he was not on message in LGBT issues.
This is sort of the point - we are hearing this cross-bench praise now he’s been brutally murdered - it seems like the only acceptable statement for god knows how long about an opposition MP has to be criticism rather than room for praise.
Imagine a discourse where MPs say “I don’t agree with Bob on this point but I know he cares deeply as I know he’s involved with x charity on the matter”. Instead it’s just mud slinging for the cameras even if behind the scenes they might be very happy to laugh over a beer in a commons bar.
That's why there are cross party groups on things - such as animal rights, angling, ceramics, Israel, American Football, euthanasia, Formula 1, "Jazz Appreciation", and the night time economy.
It's an opportunity for MPs (of all persuasions) to bond over common causes.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
I do not wish to speculate about the motives of the individual responsible for this horrific crime but I think there was a sea change in attitudes towards MPs at the time of the expenses scandal out of all proportion to the wrongs that had been committed.
I doubt you've speculated about the killer's motives at all there, and I think you're right.
The expenses thing really hurt the reputation of our 'rulers' - and it never would have happened if they were paid sufficiently to not need the expenses, as they should be.
I see Sir David was active on twitter. His pinned tweet? Advertising his constituency surgery.
Southend to become a City would be a fitting tribute
I think that is a superb idea.
I'm going to contact my MP about it and encourage the rest of you to do the same.
It would be pretty cool if we could get that to actually happen from @isam 's post on PB!
Why ?
If Southend didn’t merit being awarded city status prior to this awful event why should it get it on the back of this atrocity.
Because it fulfills a human need to try and do something when confronted with evil.
At least this is a basically harmless idea; but it could have some perverse consequences for the process of designating cities in the future.
I'm not sure the list of people who'd go and kill and MP to get their hamlet city status is a long one.
Of course not, and that was not what I was implying. I am just saying that making designations like this in response to terrible crimes doesn't strike me as a particularly good policy. Then again, there are so many insanely stupid things going on in the world at the moment, it is hard to be particularly concerned about it.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It doesn't though does it?
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I was a lurker in 2015 and I think that it is more accurate to describe Nick’s posts at that time as “being wrong” than the wholly unwarranted accusation of lying. If everyone on this site was, in fact, lying when they got something wrong it would be the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
It does look like this has all the signs of a jihadi attack, to be fair to Rayner although her remarks were wrong she cannot be blamed for this appalling crime
I am not sure we should be speculating at this stage
Let the police do their job
It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious
Not helpful.
Let’s get the facts first. Not idle speculation
These are all facts. A man has been arrested from Somalia, a country which is 99% Muslim and which has a significant Jihadi extremist presence. Sir David was also a well known ally of Israel, hence the Israeli Foreign Minister has also tweeted his condolences.
Now obviously nothing can be confirmed yet but the facts all point one way
That is a terrible post and I am not at all sure the party would be happy if they knew a representative was putting that out
They are all facts and indisputable but if you want to ignore them that is up to you.
99% of Tory voters will agree we must tighten our immigration system to ensure terrorists do not get through if that does turn out to be the case. Nothing is 100% certain yet of course but all the signs point to a jihadi extremist terrorist, hence the counter terrorism unit has taken over the murder investigation
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
Where have I said anything about the Somali community? Even in my earlier post I said Jihadis were only a minority of Somali Muslims.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
You are simply a disgrace and you need to drop it
I am not saying anything most Tories and conservatives will not be thinking this evening and you can try and ban all debate on it but this debate will grow ever wider over the next week
But we don't know that the accused isn't a member of the Conservative Party, or a donor to it, for that matter.
All you are achieving is prejudice - in more senses than one.
All you are being is naive, in more ways than one.
All the news reports this evening are clear, this is likely a Jihadi terrorist and the police are also clear on that too
Some of us believe in the rule of law. You evidently don't, making prejudicial assertions.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government
This is not party political and you are out of order
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
I've been asked to do a tribute for David on LBC tomorrow morning (probably 850) and a Mail article to appear next week - will be an opportunity to stress the importance of respect for people who work to serve the community, regardless of whether we agree with them on one or another issue.
At one time I think he was one of only about 5 Tory MPs to oppose fox hunting, (although the number is probably a lot higher now).
Yes, it's about 50 now. But a thing about David was that he wasn't, temparamentally, a rebel, in the sense of loving to defy others. He simply argued for what he believed in, and a suggestion that he should change his mind because colleagues or the party as a whole thought differently would have simply baffled him - "let them say what they think and I'll say what I think", he'd have said.
Thank you Nick Palmer for sharing your insight as a parliamentarian this evening. Very few of us will have your insider knowledge of how Parliament operates behind the scenes. I’m sure I’m not the only PBer that will have gained from reading your posts.
You perhaps weren't here for GE 2015. Tick tock. By which I mean that I would never call any other fellow PBer a liar, but Nick lied to the site on betting-relevant issues, at length and repeatedly, and made no bones about it. Tick tock. I value honesty very highly, myself.
Glad to hear you 'value honesty very highly'.
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
Any (other than Palmer, who self confessedly is), that means. How were you reading it? Any PBer other than myself? That gets us into the Cretan paradox, surely?
I was a lurker in 2015 and I think that it is more accurate to describe Nick’s posts at that time as “being wrong” than the wholly unwarranted accusation of lying. If everyone on this site was, in fact, lying when they got something wrong it would be the biggest site of bullshitters on the Internet.
Nope. He misrepresented his expectations as to the outcome, and admitted he did. If you are interested in paradoxes I suppose that makes him an honest liar. I am comfortable with thinking of him as just a liar.
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government
This is not party political and you are out of order
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
'Neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views', you obviously don't know many current Tory voters then let alone Tory members who make me look like a wet lettuce!
I see Sir David was active on twitter. His pinned tweet? Advertising his constituency surgery.
Southend to become a City would be a fitting tribute
I think that is a superb idea.
I'm going to contact my MP about it and encourage the rest of you to do the same.
It would be pretty cool if we could get that to actually happen from @isam 's post on PB!
Why ?
If Southend didn’t merit being awarded city status prior to this awful event why should it get it on the back of this atrocity.
Because it fulfills a human need to try and do something when confronted with evil.
At least this is a basically harmless idea; but it could have some perverse consequences for the process of designating cities in the future.
I'm not sure the list of people who'd go and kill and MP to get their hamlet city status is a long one.
Of course not, and that was not what I was implying. I am just saying that making designations like this in response to terrible crimes doesn't strike me as a particularly good policy. Then again, there are so many insanely stupid things going on in the world at the moment, it is hard to be particularly concerned about it.
Of course it shouldn't be policy.
But how often has an MP campaigned for a town to get city status as hard as Sir David Amess did for Southend?
I don't believe any MP ever has. I doubt this could ever become a 'policy'
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
And I am rebutting them each time
He shames the party
Look BigG, most of the time on here you have more in common with Starmer Labour and Ed Davey's LDs than Boris and Priti's Tory Party and me in your views.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government
This is not party political and you are out of order
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
'Neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views', you obviously don't know many current Tory voters then let alone Tory members who make me look like a wet lettuce!
Er, what you are implying is that the Conservative Party is an English supremacist party. Is that correct, please?
@HYUFD putting in another sterling shift this evening in his unrelenting efforts to keep the Conservatives true to their Nasty Party ideals.
If the Nasty Party means having control of our borders and keeping terrorists out then I am proud to say I am a fully paid up member of the Nasty Party!
It doesn't though does it?
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
The new points system properly managed can control our borders as Margaret Thatcher as PM for example successfully did during her premiership
Comments
Catching Covid today is better than having caught it last year. And next year will be better still. Of course, the antivaxxers can do themselves a bigger favour by getting jabbed.
What Hoyle also made sure to stress was his own determined defiance of this danger they live with. Saying we can not be cowed into changing the principle of how we do politics in this country - our elected representatives must remain accessible. He's doing his constituency surgery this evening, because if he didn't, he'd let the nutter win.
I was, again, impressed by him.
@George_Osborne
·
26m
Two MPs, David Amess and Jo Cox, have been killed and one (Nigel Jones) very nearly was, doing their job. Let me say something that’s hard for current MPs to say because they can get shouted down: MPs, in their constituency work, are on the front line of public service.
Deborah Haynes
@haynesdeborah
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34m
I understand the 25-year-old man who has been arrested in connection with the killing of Sir David Ames is a British national.
MPs would be forgiven for worrying about whether they'll be next after this latest gruesome development. Needless to say, it's very disturbing.
Quiz question - what is the only ex-city in England?
We only ever seem to know about MPs when they are at the top or do something wrong/controversial unless you actually live in their constituency and see it yourself.
It’s a bug of the situation where bad news is “better News” than good stories.
Maybe if there was a way that people got to hear about what MPs do day to day it might break down animosity. It feels like a lot of people know the “negatives” about someone like Sir David because it goes against their beliefs but would perhaps have been softened if they had seen that despite him having opposing views on say, abortion, they would have seen he wasn’t a “monster” as based on his good works he clearly wasn’t.
But he’s a bad man according to one poster here as he was not on message in LGBT issues.
On cities, I'm sure I recall seeing 'City Centre' signs in Reading about 15 years ago though it wasn't, and still isn't, a city, despite prodigious size. See also Swindon.
But it's actually now a seriously perilous job. How many other professions have had 1 in 325 of their number murdered in the last 5 years?
The danger money alone should be higher than their current salary.
Imagine a discourse where MPs say “I don’t agree with Bob on this point but I know he cares deeply as I know he’s involved with x charity on the matter”. Instead it’s just mud slinging for the cameras even if behind the scenes they might be very happy to laugh over a beer in a commons bar.
Some years ago, a significant number of our fellow citizens reacted to the news of the death of a former Prime Minister after a prolonged struggle with dementia by holding riotous street parties and propelling "Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead" to the top of the singles chart.
One rather doubts that matters have improved since.
Ken Clarke is always good value - very much in private as he is in public.
Zac Goldsmith is great on animal welfare and the environment - seriously interested in both.
Michael Gove isn't cuddly but he's always interesting and again open-minded and willintg to listen.
John Hayes is very much a party man, but kind to other MPs, occasionally giving them genuinely useful tips unrelated to party interest
Norman Lamb was my favourite LibDem - always mellow and friendly, however stressful the situation.
Caroline Lucas is another MP who is exactly as it says on the tin - genuinely keen on what she does.
I'm sure there are others but those are the ones that spring to mind.
I hope the great and the good are all buying offsets.
But that's OK cos he apologised.
@haynesdeborah
·
24m
Update on this: The suspect is a British citizen with Somali heritage. It is not yet clear (from folk I've been in contact with at least) whether he also holds dual Somali citizenship. Will update when that does become clear.
Are you sure that's a good idea?
Actually, no it isn't. Because it came from exactly the same 'Tory scum' place as Angela Rayner's comments. It said for people we don't agree with beyond a certain point we have defined, assault is fine.
She may not seriously have been advocating battery acid assaults. She certainly wasn't opposed to milk shake attacks.
A man who was serving his community was murdered by an individual. I would put money on the fact that that individual does not represent the views of the overwhelming majority of his community whether he is British, Somali, Chinese or Botswanan. The only thing you are doing by harping on about Somalians, Jihadists and Islamists is trying to use this terrible crime as a means to sow discord and foster animosity between peoples. If your words cause an attack on the Somali community then you will stand there and claim it was nothing to do with you of course. But you will be as guilty as those imams preaching hate every Friday. You are cut from the same cloth.
Just stop it.
A few thoughts.
Murder of a politician should carry a mandatory life sentence.
In the event that social media is found to have been a factor in Sir David’s death, there needs to be at least a public enquiry about the role of social media, and if necessary, legal controls on its use.
City of Southend would be a fitting epitaph.
On the Labour side my favourites were Ruth Kelly - very clever and successful but friendly and unassuming - Fabian Hamilton (just a really, really nice man), Jeremy Corbyn - modest and incapable of bitterness - and the late, flamboyant, lovable, and tragic Fiona jones, who I shared an office with. An eclectic selection!
The difference between him and Rayner is a) he was patently being a "comedic" twat with a glib quip and no sense that he meant it and b) he apologised, rather than doubling down.
However, I know you favour open door immigration but the fact of the matter is if this murderer does turn out to be a Jihadi extremist we need far tighter border controls to ensure we do not let into this country immigrants who are terrorists and extremists.
That is simply a matter of national security. That would apply whatever his nationality
But it's still unacceptable to have said it, even though I don't believe for a moment he wanted anybody to be incited into violent action by it.
I think it's similar to the Rayner "scum" stuff. They were both trying to appeal to their audience's basest instincts in a quite idiotic and undignified way, but neither was actually trying to incite violence.
Obviously there's the distinction that the pipe bomb threat was a violent threat, but it wasn't meant to be public and wasn't serious. Rayner's words weren't a threat in any way, but they were far more public, more sincerely felt, and so maybe more likely to cause violence.
I'd prefer it if both idiots stood down and we had two more byelections coming up, but I seriously doubt that'll happen.
Maybe they'll learn a lesson from Amess and become better constituency MPs, and perhaps start to treat their opponents with a lot more respect.
"It is not much speculation to say that Somalia is 99% Muslim and a minority of those will be Jihadis unfortunately.
It is just statement of the obvious"
This has nothing to do with my views on immigration and everything to do with your trying to make political capital and score points out of the murder of a man.
Every time I think you have scraped the bottom you prove you can sink even lower.
By that time it was already clear the counter terrorism unit had taken over.
I am not going to be guilt shamed by your ultra libertarian, ultra liberal, pro open borders policy into not stating the obvious on immigration. We need tighter border controls and greater emphasis on national security and screening of potential immigrants.
That is the only way to avoid future murders like the appalling murder of Sir David today, plus tighter security for MPs
You can all relax. I'm not on the list of approved candidates.
Yes, the Nigel may well be a "Horrible Little Fascist". But that does not justify him being attacked. And a milkshake in the face is an attack.
The problem is the rhetoric. The Tories are scum. The forrin are invading. The judges are traitors. People excuse their side and condemn the other - time to condemn the lot.
But seriously, while the line between passionate debate with some scope for invective and a general tone that is increasingly bitter and violent can get muddy sometimes, it shouldn't be this hard to fall on the right side of it.
How old is your population?
How many intergenerational households do you have? (And how many single person ones?)
How dependent is your population on public transport?
How many cases were you seeded with, before you even knew you had a problem?
All those are going to have a massive effect on your overall death rates - probably above and beyond anything policy related.
All you are achieving is prejudice - in more senses than one.
Shame on you
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants
However lessons must also be learnt to stop this terrible crime happening again.
You can bury your head in the sand about it and insult me if you like but crimes like this will not stop unless action is taken
Ae the people that prepared it castigated in the industry?
We need to respect the owners of this site and the moderators
This is not an area where one can have the 'right' amount of physical assault or threatening. Once you do it you are in effect justifying much worse, as someone will use the precise same logic about what he, or others, 'deserve', based on their own personal morals. You might be satisfied with your own, but someone else will use the same logic to do much worse.
It's horrendous.
All the news reports this evening are clear, this is likely a Jihadi terrorist and the police are also clear on that too
It seems you are not yourself being honest, however, in your assertion that you would 'never call any other fellow PBer a liar', since you do exactly that in your very next words.
But I was on his side against that fella who through an egg at him, and also against that fella out of Chumbawamba who threw a bucket of water over him. You can't just physically attack people you don't agree with. Because, amongst many other reasons, you can't be sure you're rye one in the right.
Dear me
He shames the party
It's an opportunity for MPs (of all persuasions) to bond over common causes.
The expenses thing really hurt the reputation of our 'rulers' - and it never would have happened if they were paid sufficiently to not need the expenses, as they should be.
The Tories have never managed to control the borders and never will because it's not in their donors' interests - it's all a charade.
Does not that tell you might be in the wrong party? Take the hint and stop pretending you speak for most Conservatives now when you clearly don't.
Yes you may have been anti Corbyn and are not a socialist and are a Unionist but otherwise you have little in common with the current government.
And I have nothing in common with yourself thankfully, but then neither has the conservative party much in common with your little Englander views
Tick tock
But how often has an MP campaigned for a town to get city status as hard as Sir David Amess did for Southend?
I don't believe any MP ever has. I doubt this could ever become a 'policy'