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Fear and Loathing in Las Élysée: France 2022 – politicalbetting.com

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  • Brexit is done and dusted, day 1926 and counting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,095
    I am reporting this to the International War Crimes Tribunal
    #DianaTheMusical

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1444189366998417411
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Scott_xP said:

    FBPE is also a religion, with its own nutters.

    Nope

    There is no High Priest

    Nobody has been expelled for blasphemy

    Unlike Brexit
    And yet, I get the feeling you'd burn williamglenn at the stake for heresy, if you could
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    edited October 2021
    FF43 said:

    I don't have an opinion about British petrol shortages but the political point is that even if everybody thinks it's Brexit that's doing it, there will be an indignant argument about whether it's 80% Brexit or merely 65% Brexit, and the people who liked Brexit will feel like Boris is sticking up for them against the insufferable 80%ers. There are more than 40% of these people, and in the British system 40% wins you the election. I don't really have any good ideas for what Labour can do about this.

    Channelling Abraham Lincoln, Johnson needs to fool 40% of the voters all the time. He' seems quite capable of doing that.
    Boris Johnson doesn't actually need to fool anybody. He just needs to be less bad than the alternative.

    Labour has an appalling image problem. Labour propped up by Scottish Nationalists, which is the only likely means by which Keir Starmer gets into office, is even worse.

    That's really all there is to it.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378
    edited October 2021
    Nigelb said:

    I am reporting this to the International War Crimes Tribunal
    #DianaTheMusical

    https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1444189366998417411

    Yep - the twins (who know way too much about Broadway and West End musicals including how to find bootleg videos on Youtube) screamed when they saw the advert for this as they instantly knew how bad it was...
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    People in glass houses...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    People in glass houses...
    I hadnt realised Drakeford was that bad.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,308

    Had a chat with my wife's Uncle this morning, joked that we were glad to be in Ireland while there were fuel and food shortages in Britain. He was pretty clear that the same sort of trouble was heading to Ireland and the rest of Europe - the problem of treating HGV drivers like crap will eventually reach a breaking point there too. Naff all pre-emptive action being taken to head it off naturally.

    It's a interesting phenomenon in a number of countries - parts of the developed world have become addicted to cheap labour to do various jobs, rather than investing in equipment or managing in *concert with* the workforce.

    See some big issues in the US on this.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    One thing a lot of people need to understand

    Brexit and the collapse of the Red Wall are both due to Osborne's Austerity and the way it impacted northern councils way more than southern ones due to how Council Tax was changed and the band of the typical house in that council.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    Well, health permitting, we’re hoping to get back to Blighty for a visit next April so if you all could keep the wolverines and lepers at bay until after then we’d be very grateful.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,308
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    It has been "irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers" - this became the editorial view of the NYT, when Cameron went for "Austerity" rather than the fiscal expansion advocated by Obama.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    FBPE is also a religion, with its own nutters.

    Nope

    There is no High Priest

    Nobody has been expelled for blasphemy

    Unlike Brexit
    And yet, I get the feeling you'd burn williamglenn at the stake for heresy, if you could
    Lol! ...Says the Wokefinder General.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    dixiedean said:

    Bloody hell.
    We were far from being outplayed too.

    A good match. Could easily have been 2-1 either way so far.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    edited October 2021
    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,308
    rpjs said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    Well, health permitting, we’re hoping to get back to Blighty for a visit next April so if you all could keep the wolverines and lepers at bay until after then we’d be very grateful.
    Give the lepers one groat each. You don't have to lend them your water bottle. If you do, view this instructional video first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr0AVoG8ZEQ

    Wolverines are not so much of a problem now. It the bloody Jackalopes and the Drop Bears that have been smuggled in from Australia that are a menace. Worse, some of the Drop Bears have hybridised with the native Wild Haggis...
  • Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Food and Drink Federation said that when businesses first raised problems at Easter, ministers only wanted to talk about Covid and Brexit transition. “There was also a degree of scepticism about what we were saying. Remember most politicians never go shopping.”
    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444271828063735814

    Of course. They're the employers. They should do some f***ing thing about it. Labour, especially skilled labour, is a scarce resource. Shortage is more natural than excess and employers have had years of enjoying an unnatural excess.

    Having said that, if the DVLA did something to shift the 40,000 "vocational" licence backlog it would go some way to easing the problem. They have been a f***ing discrace during the pandemic. I hope they are working 24/7 and have drafted in people from other Departments.
    For much of this year they've been working 0/0 and anyone drafted in would have been attacked as scabs.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    rpjs said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    Well, health permitting, we’re hoping to get back to Blighty for a visit next April so if you all could keep the wolverines and lepers at bay until after then we’d be very grateful.
    Bring your own petrol!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It does seem at best highly emotive in its reporting, when you'd think there could be value in some distance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,308
    edited October 2021

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It started when Cameron took over. Brown had a lot of friends in the East Coast rich, liberal lot (core Democrats).

    So when Cameron came in and, worse yet, implemented economic policies that went against the fiscal expansion advocated by Obama..... It was heresy... and heresy *must* never prosper.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    I'm still waiting for the house price crash.

    That referendum was two groups of politicians throwing a combination of wild threats and lies at one another in their desperation to win. They both turned out to be right about some things and wrong about others, Of course, the Leavers simply had more effective campaigners; that, and the fact that there was very little emotional investment in the EU, made the difference in the end.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Be careful, don't we need a trade agreement with the US?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378

    Scott_xP said:

    The head of the Food and Drink Federation said that when businesses first raised problems at Easter, ministers only wanted to talk about Covid and Brexit transition. “There was also a degree of scepticism about what we were saying. Remember most politicians never go shopping.”
    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444271828063735814

    Of course. They're the employers. They should do some f***ing thing about it. Labour, especially skilled labour, is a scarce resource. Shortage is more natural than excess and employers have had years of enjoying an unnatural excess.

    Having said that, if the DVLA did something to shift the 40,000 "vocational" licence backlog it would go some way to easing the problem. They have been a f***ing discrace during the pandemic. I hope they are working 24/7 and have drafted in people from other Departments.
    For much of this year they've been working 0/0 and anyone drafted in would have been attacked as scabs.
    A lot of the DVLA is also working without a problem. The only areas with long delays are those that haven't been automated.

    For most things such as licence renewals are full licenses after passing your test things are virtually instant.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    Did he? I stand corrected then.
    Telling somewhat though that I've never heard of him. Sums up the Remain campaign.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Are you anticipating a great deal of deregulation?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


    In fairness some UK reporting on the USA is not exactly un-hyperbolic and might make readers feel better, but NYT does seem to realllly go for it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


    In fairness some UK reporting on the USA is not exactly un-hyperbolic and might make readers feel better, but NYT does seem to realllly go for it.
    UK reporting on other countries has a decades long reputation for balance, nuance and total absence of any exaggeration. A noble tradition which endures despite the many provocations.
  • Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    And whilst the government may come up with something where it's worth diverging from EU regulations that makes a meaningful difference to the economy, it's not done so so far. Permitting imperial weights and measures isn't it- that's increasing costs by running two systems not one.

    In the meantime, running the UK as a smaller closed garden definitely increases costs because of the extra bumf every time something or someone crosses a border. And that drag on productivity isn't going away.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    edited October 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    Did he? I stand corrected then.
    Telling somewhat though that I've never heard of him. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    He is a former chairman of Marks and Spencer.

    Here is the Guardian spin on his followup remarks to a government select committee, during the campaign:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/lord-stuart-rose-misquoted-post-eu-brexit-wage-increases

    The pro-Brexit media weren’t quite so nice on him:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/649308/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-Britain-Stronger-Europe-UKIP-wages-Brussels-Cameron
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    Andros Townsend.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Hopefully labour shortages will force employers to improve productivity through automation.

    If we are really lucky then the jobs automated out of existence will either be replaced by additional ones in growing sectors suitable for the newly unemployed, or the number of available jobs will fall at approximately the same rate as the number of available workers, as the population goes into decline. Population decline being the best (and possibly only) long-term solution both to the tremendous house price problem, and to the strain that ever increasing numbers of human beings places upon our environment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    OMFG I just saw that clip from Diana the Musical

    It's actually WORSE than everyone says. There are not words to describe it.

    But is it actually meant to be this bad. Like an extended joke about the Worst Possible Musical?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    Did he? I stand corrected then.
    Telling somewhat though that I've never heard of him. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    He is a former chairman of Marks and Spencer.

    Here is the Guardian spin on his followup remarks to a government select committee, during the campaign:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/lord-stuart-rose-misquoted-post-eu-brexit-wage-increases

    The pro-Brexit media weren’t quite so nice on him:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/649308/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-Britain-Stronger-Europe-UKIP-wages-Brussels-Cameron
    A multi-millionaire businessman boss of an upmarket chain most folk can't afford to use?
    Like I said. Sums up the Remain campaign.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    Leon said:

    OMFG I just saw that clip from Diana the Musical

    It's actually WORSE than everyone says. There are not words to describe it.

    But is it actually meant to be this bad. Like an extended joke about the Worst Possible Musical?

    It’s a comedy, isn’t it? Followup to The Play That Goes Wrong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104
    Leon said:

    OMFG I just saw that clip from Diana the Musical

    It's actually WORSE than everyone says. There are not words to describe it.

    But is it actually meant to be this bad. Like an extended joke about the Worst Possible Musical?

    Well, I hadn't heard of it until just now, and am now kind of fascinated, so quite possibly. If your starting premise is shit, it might be best to lean into it for a so bad it is good situation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,689
    edited October 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    dixiedean said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Are you anticipating a great deal of deregulation?
    One can hope.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    pigeon said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Hopefully labour shortages will force employers to improve productivity through automation.

    If we are really lucky then the jobs automated out of existence will either be replaced by additional ones in growing sectors suitable for the newly unemployed, or the number of available jobs will fall at approximately the same rate as the number of available workers, as the population goes into decline. Population decline being the best (and possibly only) long-term solution both to the tremendous house price problem, and to the strain that ever increasing numbers of human beings places upon our environment.
    Automation is an attractive idea and it could undoubtedly happen to some extent. But empirical estimates of factor substitutability, as it is known in economic jargon, tend to show that it's only possible to a very limited extent; I've seen an estimate that about 20-25% of labour can be substituted with capital at the margin. The rest of a wage increase goes in lower profits or higher prices.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,095
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Didn’t you steal that from the Spectator … ?
  • Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


    In fairness some UK reporting on the USA is not exactly un-hyperbolic and might make readers feel better, but NYT does seem to realllly go for it.
    I presume the US is annoyed with the UK over Brexit because now they no longer have an inside man. I can't imagine that even the most ardent of Remainers would want us to be in that position. Of course it would be a completely unfair stereotype.

    Good and bad in this, but interesting to see the cobwebs of complacency swept away a little.
  • Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    OMFG I just saw that clip from Diana the Musical

    It's actually WORSE than everyone says. There are not words to describe it.

    But is it actually meant to be this bad. Like an extended joke about the Worst Possible Musical?

    It’s a comedy, isn’t it? Followup to The Play That Goes Wrong.
    It feels like it must be camp comedy, but the overwhelming reaction is cringe - more like Springtime for Hitler

    Which was of course (in the movie) a massive hit
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,578
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Send it in. See if they publish it in their letters.

    Or else employ you....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,854
    edited October 2021

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    Depends, the causality could be the drop in younger driver intake sucking in outside labour, like with farm food picking.

    Edit: been very impressed (in the wrong way) with the reportage coming out in recent months on the way [further edit] driving staff are treated universally in Europe, including the UK.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    Fishing said:

    pigeon said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Hopefully labour shortages will force employers to improve productivity through automation.

    If we are really lucky then the jobs automated out of existence will either be replaced by additional ones in growing sectors suitable for the newly unemployed, or the number of available jobs will fall at approximately the same rate as the number of available workers, as the population goes into decline. Population decline being the best (and possibly only) long-term solution both to the tremendous house price problem, and to the strain that ever increasing numbers of human beings places upon our environment.
    Automation is an attractive idea and it could undoubtedly happen to some extent. But empirical estimates of factor substitutability, as it is known in economic jargon, tend to show that it's only possible to a very limited extent; I've seen an estimate that about 20-25% of labour can be substituted with capital at the margin. The rest of a wage increase goes in lower profits or higher prices.
    But 20% of labour is a massive number of people, on the scale of the economy as a whole.

    It starts with car washes, coffee machines, self-ordering kiosks and self-checkout machines - all of which are easy investment decisions as the cost of unskilled labour starts to rise above minimum wage, or as minimum wage rises above inflation. All of these substitutions of labour with capital, make the business more productive and more profitable.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,418
    eek said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    One thing a lot of people need to understand

    Brexit and the collapse of the Red Wall are both due to Osborne's Austerity and the way it impacted northern councils way more than southern ones due to how Council Tax was changed and the band of the typical house in that council.
    I think there’s a hell of a lot of truth in this. But people can kid themselves it’s all racist grandads.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,689

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    The big drop in the total number is in the last 18 months. It looks to me that around 70 000 British HGV drivers disappeared in the pandemic. It looks like they found a better way of making a living, and the shift of EU drivers was quite minimal in comparison.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    Did he? I stand corrected then.
    Telling somewhat though that I've never heard of him. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    He is a former chairman of Marks and Spencer.

    Here is the Guardian spin on his followup remarks to a government select committee, during the campaign:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/lord-stuart-rose-misquoted-post-eu-brexit-wage-increases

    The pro-Brexit media weren’t quite so nice on him:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/649308/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-Britain-Stronger-Europe-UKIP-wages-Brussels-Cameron
    A multi-millionaire businessman boss of an upmarket chain most folk can't afford to use?
    Like I said. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    Here he is saying it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyKrXB4i9Ag

    With him is 'Red Prince' Will Straw. Now Will Straw CBE.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    People in glass houses...
    I hadnt realised Drakeford was that bad.
    Are you in Wales then?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    The big drop in the total number is in the last 18 months. It looks to me that around 70 000 British HGV drivers disappeared in the pandemic. It looks like they found a better way of making a living, and the shift of EU drivers was quite minimal in comparison.
    The anecdotal evidence, is that a lot of long-distance HGV drivers got jobs driving smaller vehicles more locally, for similar money. There was a huge expansion of home delivery services at the start of the pandemic, as supermarkets and retailers understandably refocused their businesses away from physical stores.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,418

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    Did he? I stand corrected then.
    Telling somewhat though that I've never heard of him. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    He is a former chairman of Marks and Spencer.

    Here is the Guardian spin on his followup remarks to a government select committee, during the campaign:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/lord-stuart-rose-misquoted-post-eu-brexit-wage-increases

    The pro-Brexit media weren’t quite so nice on him:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/649308/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-Britain-Stronger-Europe-UKIP-wages-Brussels-Cameron
    A multi-millionaire businessman boss of an upmarket chain most folk can't afford to use?
    Like I said. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    Here he is saying it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyKrXB4i9Ag

    With him is 'Red Prince' Will Straw. Now Will Straw CBE.
    CBE !! Did it come in a pack of cornflakes.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    Did he? I stand corrected then.
    Telling somewhat though that I've never heard of him. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    He is a former chairman of Marks and Spencer.

    Here is the Guardian spin on his followup remarks to a government select committee, during the campaign:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/lord-stuart-rose-misquoted-post-eu-brexit-wage-increases

    The pro-Brexit media weren’t quite so nice on him:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/649308/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-Britain-Stronger-Europe-UKIP-wages-Brussels-Cameron
    A multi-millionaire businessman boss of an upmarket chain most folk can't afford to use?
    Like I said. Sums up the Remain campaign.
    Here he is saying it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyKrXB4i9Ag

    With him is 'Red Prince' Will Straw. Now Will Straw CBE.
    CBE !! Did it come in a pack of cornflakes.
    You don't imagine he could open a box of cornflakes do you?

    (I've no idea about his skills, but I'm damned sure he got his CBE for one reason only.)
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    The big drop in the total number is in the last 18 months. It looks to me that around 70 000 British HGV drivers disappeared in the pandemic. It looks like they found a better way of making a living, and the shift of EU drivers was quite minimal in comparison.
    Indeed.

    Covid has had a major disruptive event and many bad employers have been left exposed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,201
    edited October 2021
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


    In fairness some UK reporting on the USA is not exactly un-hyperbolic and might make readers feel better, but NYT does seem to realllly go for it.
    I presume the US is annoyed with the UK over Brexit because now they no longer have an inside man. I can't imagine that even the most ardent of Remainers would want us to be in that position. Of course it would be a completely unfair stereotype.

    Good and bad in this, but interesting to see the cobwebs of complacency swept away a little.
    It's not the US.

    It was written by a freelancer called Samuel Earle who is based in London, and lectures in Feature Writing at UCL.

    https://muckrack.com/samuel-earle
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,689
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    The big drop in the total number is in the last 18 months. It looks to me that around 70 000 British HGV drivers disappeared in the pandemic. It looks like they found a better way of making a living, and the shift of EU drivers was quite minimal in comparison.
    The anecdotal evidence, is that a lot of long-distance HGV drivers got jobs driving smaller vehicles more locally, for similar money. There was a huge expansion of home delivery services at the start of the pandemic, as supermarkets and retailers understandably refocused their businesses away from physical stores.
    Yes, that is quite plausible. Nonetheless it is hard to see that less than 10% of the workforce was driving down HGV wages in 2015. Nor for that matter that the quarter of HGV drivers are going to come back in a hurry.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    pigeon said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Hopefully labour shortages will force employers to improve productivity through automation.

    If we are really lucky then the jobs automated out of existence will either be replaced by additional ones in growing sectors suitable for the newly unemployed, or the number of available jobs will fall at approximately the same rate as the number of available workers, as the population goes into decline. Population decline being the best (and possibly only) long-term solution both to the tremendous house price problem, and to the strain that ever increasing numbers of human beings places upon our environment.
    Automation is an attractive idea and it could undoubtedly happen to some extent. But empirical estimates of factor substitutability, as it is known in economic jargon, tend to show that it's only possible to a very limited extent; I've seen an estimate that about 20-25% of labour can be substituted with capital at the margin. The rest of a wage increase goes in lower profits or higher prices.
    But 20% of labour is a massive number of people, on the scale of the economy as a whole.

    It starts with car washes, coffee machines, self-ordering kiosks and self-checkout machines - all of which are easy investment decisions as the cost of unskilled labour starts to rise above minimum wage, or as minimum wage rises above inflation. All of these substitutions of labour with capital, make the business more productive and more profitable.
    It's only 20% of labour at the margin. Not overall - it will certainly be lower overall. And of course you're left with a bunch of unskilled unemployables with nothing to do. Fine if you can deport them or retrain them, but as a country we have a pooe record at doing both.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,588
    Dura_Ace said:


    Then there’s trucking. Talk to most businesspeople who make or move things and they will complain about the driver shortage. This too is a story of deregulation. In the 1970s, the end of public rate-setting forced trucking firms to compete against each other to offer lower shipping prices. The way they did this was by lowering pay to their drivers. Trucking on a firm-level became unpredictable and financially fragile, so for drivers schedules became unsustainable, even if the pay during boom times could be high. Today, even though pay is going up, the scheduling is crushing drivers. The result is a shortage of truckers.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/america-supply-chain-shortages

    There is definitely something going on. I recently bought an engine and transmission for my '80 Firebird (this winter's project). I had them consigned to FedEx in Memphis for shipping then I got my estimate for the freight costs.... $8,000!


    Axis really starts at $0.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,689
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Though all post industrial economies seem to struggle with productivity. Service industries don't necessarily benefit from automation. If I want a coffee from a machine why not make it at home? Why use a self checkout in a shop when it is easier to shop online?

    The premium that people want to pay for is inherently time based. I could see more patients if I halved consultation times, but wouldn't patients feel short-changed?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


    In fairness some UK reporting on the USA is not exactly un-hyperbolic and might make readers feel better, but NYT does seem to realllly go for it.
    I presume the US is annoyed with the UK over Brexit because now they no longer have an inside man. I can't imagine that even the most ardent of Remainers would want us to be in that position. Of course it would be a completely unfair stereotype.

    Good and bad in this, but interesting to see the cobwebs of complacency swept away a little.
    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,201
    edited October 2021
    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Interesting thread on this here. People (incorrectly) predicted a demand side shock and (correctly) predicted an ongoing loss of prosperity as a result of Brexit. They didn't predict the highly damaging loss of resilience.

    The clues where there, particularly when the pandemic kicked off, but no-one picked up on them.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1442877965881253899
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    Foxy said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Though all post industrial economies seem to struggle with productivity. Service industries don't necessarily benefit from automation. If I want a coffee from a machine why not make it at home? Why use a self checkout in a shop when it is easier to shop online?

    The premium that people want to pay for is inherently time based. I could see more patients if I halved consultation times, but wouldn't patients feel short-changed?
    Yes productivity in services is incredibly subjective and difficult to measure. Most measurements are based around income, which is obviously absurd in some contexts.

    I write as someone who has done more work on productivity than any man should have to...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Fishing said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I feel like our tourism advert in the NYT needs a bit of work https://twitter.com/jamiesusskind/status/1443960130673029122/photo/1

    The New York Times is, I feel, going to be kind of *disappointed* if Britain is not an irradiated desert inhabited solely by drooling wolverines and moaning lepers, within a year or so
    I think it first has to coming to terms with a drooling zombie of a president who cant do interviews.
    IT would be fun to do an opening paragraph, such as that on the UK by the NYT, but on the USA


    I'll have a bash

    "Hospitals filling up with dying plague victims. Gunmen rampant as murders soar out of control. Soldiers fleeing foreign bases, chased by barefoot militants. And, in the background, a political system reeling from an attempted coup, as race riots roil the cities - and the homeless die of opioid addiction. This is America in 2021."
    Sadly, all too plausible.

    What is it with the NYT and their rabid anti-British stance? I'm all for taking a hard look at things that need fixing in Britain but really, if you buy the NYT you'd expect a modicum of balance.
    It's partly Brexit, and also, partly - I've come to think - that it makes their readers feel better about themselves and about America, at a time when they are quite depressed about both. Because America does have major problems, arguably much worse than the UK, and it is also now in obvious relative decline as a superpower (a painful process we have already endured). So to cheer up its readership, the NYT points across the Atlantic to the mother country and another great English-speaking democracy and says Look how bad it is THERE!

    It is basically what the Daily Express does when it aims jabs at France or Germany for its Brexity readership

    The one surprising thing is that NYT readers don't complain (indeed, they must lap it up, as I imply). They are not a stupid bunch. Many of them must be aware it is hyperbolic rubbish.


    In fairness some UK reporting on the USA is not exactly un-hyperbolic and might make readers feel better, but NYT does seem to realllly go for it.
    I presume the US is annoyed with the UK over Brexit because now they no longer have an inside man. I can't imagine that even the most ardent of Remainers would want us to be in that position. Of course it would be a completely unfair stereotype.

    Good and bad in this, but interesting to see the cobwebs of complacency swept away a little.
    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.
    That's definitely a factor. Trump Derangement Syndrome.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    pigeon said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    Hopefully labour shortages will force employers to improve productivity through automation.

    If we are really lucky then the jobs automated out of existence will either be replaced by additional ones in growing sectors suitable for the newly unemployed, or the number of available jobs will fall at approximately the same rate as the number of available workers, as the population goes into decline. Population decline being the best (and possibly only) long-term solution both to the tremendous house price problem, and to the strain that ever increasing numbers of human beings places upon our environment.
    On a historical scale, immigration to Europe is still rising. Hard to see that ever changing.
  • Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    Depends, the causality could be the drop in younger driver intake sucking in outside labour, like with farm food picking.

    Edit: been very impressed (in the wrong way) with the reportage coming out in recent months on the way [further edit] driving staff are treated universally in Europe, including the UK.
    Likewise with meat production:

    Every inch of Margot’s body hurt from the unrelenting work. Her hands bled from blisters that burst as she repeatedly hauled carcasses, but she would wait until she got home to sterilise her wounds with ammonia. “If you didn’t do your job well, you’d be pushed – they didn’t care if your hands were full of blood,” she says.

    This wasn’t the life Margot* imagined when she left her job in a clothes factory near her home village in Romania in search of better prospects for her young family in western Europe. She thought labour conditions in the Netherlands – where she worked for three years in a meat factory – would be much more favourable than in her home country. “I didn’t expect it to be so awful.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/28/the-whole-system-is-rotten-life-inside-europes-meat-industry
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited October 2021
    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    Fishing said:

    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.

    I don't want to sound rude but some of the the people you talked to must be stupid if they compare a lawful vote with a violent attempt to overturn the results of an election.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    edited October 2021
    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Am suspicious that a certain proportion of mortgage holders aren't actually aware interest rates can rise.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    glw said:

    Fishing said:

    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.

    I don't want to sound rude but some of the the people you talked to must be stupid if they compare a lawful vote with a violent attempt to overturn the results of an election.
    As I've said before, ironically the best British comparison with 6th January in DC is the Remainer campaign to overturn the Brexit referendum: to simply ignore a lawful vote and get it reversed, because they "didn't like it"
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    glw said:

    Fishing said:

    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.

    I don't want to sound rude but some of the the people you talked to must be stupid if they compare a lawful vote with a violent attempt to overturn the results of an election.
    Not stupid, just ignorant. Parrotting what they read in the NYT and see on CNN rather than finding out about the issues and making their own minds up.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    dixiedean said:

    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Am suspicious that a certain proportion of mortgage holders aren't actually aware interest rates can rise.
    Anyone under 35, has never really known anything except interest rates on the floor.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Fishing said:

    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.

    I don't want to sound rude but some of the the people you talked to must be stupid if they compare a lawful vote with a violent attempt to overturn the results of an election.
    As I've said before, ironically the best British comparison with 6th January in DC is the Remainer campaign to overturn the Brexit referendum: to simply ignore a lawful vote and get it reversed, because they "didn't like it"
    That's a very interesting thought. Sort of crossed wires, but I like it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    glw said:

    Fishing said:

    I was just in the States, and most informed liberal Americans I talked to are obsessed with the notion of Boris as BritTrump, and Brexit as our equivalent of the 6th January uprisings. Americans usually think of foreign politics in American terms, but even I was surprised at their lack of interest in, or understanding of, the big differences between the two.

    I don't want to sound rude but some of the the people you talked to must be stupid if they compare a lawful vote with a violent attempt to overturn the results of an election.
    As I've said before, ironically the best British comparison with 6th January in DC is the Remainer campaign to overturn the Brexit referendum: to simply ignore a lawful vote and get it reversed, because they "didn't like it"
    The similarities are far outweighed by differences. Remainers should have just accepted a compromise but the acting as if the methodology makes no difference is just plain bollocks. It gets a rise from people, job done, but that doesn't denote anything substantive.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,689
    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    UK Consumer confidence does look to be dropping, and that must affect house prices significantly.

    https://www.cityam.com/anxiety-about-soaring-living-costs-weighs-down-uk-consumer-confidence/amp/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

  • ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Absolutely fantastic news if true but I won't count chickens until they hatch.

    Surely the biggest issue hasn't even been mentioned yet? Construction may finally be outpacing demand for the first time in decades. Long may it continue.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,418
    dixiedean said:

    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Am suspicious that a certain proportion of mortgage holders aren't actually aware interest rates can rise.
    For many years they haven’t.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,418

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:



    Scott_xP said:

    Rod McKenzie, managing director of the Road Haulage Association, said that a promise by ministers a week ago of three-month visas for 5,000 drivers, “simply does not work.”

    Another major retail boss was blunter: “5,000 drivers is pissing in the wind.”

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1444270683211587586

    makes you wonder why the RHA didnt do something about it four years ago
    One interesting thing is that we didn't have many EU HGV drivers here in 2015, so they weren't driving down wages.



    The big drop is since 2019.
    Cumulative effect - 1% here and 1% there and soon you're dealing with substantial numbers.

    Especially if its having an effect on the number of younger British people becoming drivers.

    An ageing workforce in any economic sector is a sign of fundamental problems.
    Depends, the causality could be the drop in younger driver intake sucking in outside labour, like with farm food picking.

    Edit: been very impressed (in the wrong way) with the reportage coming out in recent months on the way [further edit] driving staff are treated universally in Europe, including the UK.
    Likewise with meat production:

    Every inch of Margot’s body hurt from the unrelenting work. Her hands bled from blisters that burst as she repeatedly hauled carcasses, but she would wait until she got home to sterilise her wounds with ammonia. “If you didn’t do your job well, you’d be pushed – they didn’t care if your hands were full of blood,” she says.

    This wasn’t the life Margot* imagined when she left her job in a clothes factory near her home village in Romania in search of better prospects for her young family in western Europe. She thought labour conditions in the Netherlands – where she worked for three years in a meat factory – would be much more favourable than in her home country. “I didn’t expect it to be so awful.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/28/the-whole-system-is-rotten-life-inside-europes-meat-industry
    So the streets aren’t paved with gold. What a shock.
  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Thatcher was right that you can't buck the market to get pay rises faster than the market can cope with.

    But we absolutely can if we have full employment and productivity growth.

    There was real wage growth over the eighties and justifiably so. It's justifiable today to have the market increase wages too.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Thatcher was right that you can't buck the market to get pay rises faster than the market can cope with.

    But we absolutely can if we have full employment and productivity growth.

    There was real wage growth over the eighties and justifiably so. It's justifiable today to have the market increase wages too.
    Wage growth is usually bad. Growth in the standard of living, usually good.
  • Given you can get a five year fix at 1.2%, the markets don't think interest rates can rise either.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Am suspicious that a certain proportion of mortgage holders aren't actually aware interest rates can rise.
    Anyone under 35, has never really known anything except interest rates on the floor.
    Just come across this article which backs this up.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/buying-mortgages/interest-rates-mortgage-inflation-bank-of-england-b957769.html

    Not so much the article.which explains very basic facts about mortgages and interest rates that no one who bought a house before 2008 would be unaware of.
    But the fact they felt it needed writing at all.

  • Leon said:

    OMFG I just saw that clip from Diana the Musical

    It's actually WORSE than everyone says. There are not words to describe it.

    But is it actually meant to be this bad. Like an extended joke about the Worst Possible Musical?

    That statue animated with a soundtrack put to it?

    Springtime for Diana…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,559
    darkage said:

    The thing about Cressida Dick is that, even if we make the heroic assumption that she is good at her job, she has nonetheless lost the confidence of the public. That will in itself harm policing and make reform harder. She should resign and let someone new take over.

    But the calls for her to resign are not quite that unaminous. 38% of the public; according to a poll reported this morning. It isn't a 'george floyd' moment. There is a sense of public digust at an absolutely terrible crime, but this does not necessarily translate in to a lack of confidence in the police. You would need to dig deeper in to public opinion before arriving at that conclusion.
    Not a fan of Cressida Dick but I don't know why she should resign because of what someone else did.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,044
    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Thatcher was right that you can't buck the market to get pay rises faster than the market can cope with.

    But we absolutely can if we have full employment and productivity growth.

    There was real wage growth over the eighties and justifiably so. It's justifiable today to have the market increase wages too.
    Wage growth is usually bad. Growth in the standard of living, usually good.
    Wage growth is fine as long as it doesn't outpace productivity growth. Because then it has to lead eventually to inflation.
  • dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Am suspicious that a certain proportion of mortgage holders aren't actually aware interest rates can rise.
    Anyone under 35, has never really known anything except interest rates on the floor.
    Just come across this article which backs this up.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/buying-mortgages/interest-rates-mortgage-inflation-bank-of-england-b957769.html

    Not so much the article.which explains very basic facts about mortgages and interest rates that no one who bought a house before 2008 would be unaware of.
    But the fact they felt it needed writing at all.

    I like this bit:

    If you have a £500,000 mortgage your monthly repayments, over 25 years, will be £1,883pcm at one per cent.

    That's about double the average house price in the UK.

    We're all aware that house prices are higher in London but that reveals the absurdity of it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Andy_JS said:

    darkage said:

    The thing about Cressida Dick is that, even if we make the heroic assumption that she is good at her job, she has nonetheless lost the confidence of the public. That will in itself harm policing and make reform harder. She should resign and let someone new take over.

    But the calls for her to resign are not quite that unaminous. 38% of the public; according to a poll reported this morning. It isn't a 'george floyd' moment. There is a sense of public digust at an absolutely terrible crime, but this does not necessarily translate in to a lack of confidence in the police. You would need to dig deeper in to public opinion before arriving at that conclusion.
    Not a fan of Cressida Dick but I don't know why she should resign because of what someone else did.
    Because culture is set from the top.

    There is also the matter of her interfering in the Morgan investigation to frustrate the inquest.
  • Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Thatcher was right that you can't buck the market to get pay rises faster than the market can cope with.

    But we absolutely can if we have full employment and productivity growth.

    There was real wage growth over the eighties and justifiably so. It's justifiable today to have the market increase wages too.
    Wage growth is usually bad. Growth in the standard of living, usually good.
    How do you get standard in living growth without wage growth?

    Especially when we've had decades of high inflation in costs?

    Again housing costs which have had rocketing inflation form a higher proportion of household expenditure than food costs do or did in the 70s too.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,516
    dixiedean said:

    I don't have an opinion about British petrol shortages but the political point is that even if everybody thinks it's Brexit that's doing it, there will be an indignant argument about whether it's 80% Brexit or merely 65% Brexit, and the people who liked Brexit will feel like Boris is sticking up for them against the insufferable 80%ers. There are more than 40% of these people, and in the British system 40% wins you the election. I don't really have any good ideas for what Labour can do about this.

    Yup. As someone upthread said, Brexit is a religion. 40% are fundamentalists. Under FPTP, that means a theocracy.
    The slightly more complicated, boring but possibly true suggestion is that a number of groups of all shades of opinion have, so to speak, transferred religious instincts to other things. Religions can be marginalised but not human nature, which is highly religious in many cases.

    The way the hard left, the totalitarian right, some Brexiteers, some Remainers and no doubt others act towards criticism and make their criticisms feels more like a religious than a political response. Being wrong is not an option, nor is compromise or sensible discussion.

    But these are activists. Most people don't belong to quasi religious politics; they keep quiet (mostly) except on General Election day.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    Fishing said:

    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    Leon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:



    Is Brexit causing special or unusual glitches in the UK? Probably. But as the IRISH Times says, Brexit as a problem is dwarfed by this planet-wide turbulence. Brexit is not causing the power cuts across swathes of China

    But Brexit can and will be blamed for everything that goes wrong. It's going to have to be continuously defended for decades. It has already become synonymous with 'shit'.
    In your febrile brain, perhaps. In the minds of others brexit might become associated with, say, higher wages, or more jobs.

    Also, this won’t go on for decades. Already many people roll their eyes when Brexit is mentioned - in the real world, not Twitter or PB. In 5 years it will be an issue raised by embittered cranks, as other newer problems, disasters, developments, opportunities intervene
    LOL

    ;pre vote we were harried by the nailed on prospect of mass unemployment should we vote to Leave.

    Post vote we have a shortage of labour
    It's not just Brexit though. The financial crash, the spending cuts after that, Covid, and probably other things have all been predicted to lead to "X million unemployed". The doom-mongers have been consistently and wildly wrong. For reasons I can't even understand the UK has a remarkably resiliant labour market. You would think eventually the talking heads would look back and think "I'll shut my gob" but they don't ever seem to learn from their dismal track record of forecasting.
    I don't remmber the X million unemployed warning, but I do remember the reduction in trade warning, leading to employment issues, and prices going up.

    I also remember the "we have all the cards", "EU falling over themselves to trade with us", and "there's no reason we could have a trade deal from day one",
    No one, on either side, predicted a Labour shortage.
    Brexit moves in mysterious ways.
    Who dare question the Will of Brexit? It will provide.
    Sir Stuart Rose, chairman of the Remain Campaign, called it right on the very first day.

    Brexit, he said, will lead to wages going up.
    True. But unless matched by higher productivity, it will cause general inflation. So the end result will be a redistribution of real income from those in occupations not in competition with EU migrants to those who are. The country as a whole won't be better off.

    Ultimately the only ways to be better paid as a country are to increase our productivity, or reduce the real prices we pay, for example by deregulation.
    If it redistributes income from those not working to those who are then that's an improvement in its own right

    But there's no reason why productivity wouldn't rise. Incentivised to do so, people will invest in improvements and technology to aid productivity.
    You'd have two effects. On the one hand there would be a substitution effect, as firms are incentivised to substitute capital for Labour. But as I explained below that's probably limited. On the other, there would be an income effect, as business as a whole is less profitable.

    The idea that we can pay-rise ourselves to prosperity is as seductive as the idea that we can tax and spend ourselves to prosperity, and just as accurate. The only way to increase prosperity overall is to increase productivity.

    Mrs Thatcher made a really good speech on this. I'll try and did it out.
    Thatcher was right that you can't buck the market to get pay rises faster than the market can cope with.

    But we absolutely can if we have full employment and productivity growth.

    There was real wage growth over the eighties and justifiably so. It's justifiable today to have the market increase wages too.
    Wage growth is usually bad. Growth in the standard of living, usually good.
    Wage growth is fine as long as it doesn't outpace productivity growth. Because then it has to lead eventually to inflation.
    I wasn't unaware of the dynamic you suggest. I'll stick to my assertion.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    dixiedean said:

    ping said:

    MattW said:

    Housing

    I'm hearing reports that the Housing Market is coming to a screeching halt. Causes

    - End of Stamp Duty holiday has finished any rushed transactions, and now affecting sentiment.
    - Dip after the rush of the last week or two whilst backoffices catch up.
    - Dawning realisation that some taxes are coming down the road.
    - Delaying until Oct 23 to find out.

    If you are buying, now may be a good time to deal.

    Interesting.

    I suspect people are starting to factor in interest rate rises coming down the road.

    What impact do people think a 4-5% interest rate would have on average house prices?

    I recon -30%, possibly more.

    I think even a 0.25% or 0.5% rise would send chills through the housing market
    Am suspicious that a certain proportion of mortgage holders aren't actually aware interest rates can rise.
    Anyone under 35, has never really known anything except interest rates on the floor.
    Just come across this article which backs this up.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/buying-mortgages/interest-rates-mortgage-inflation-bank-of-england-b957769.html

    Not so much the article.which explains very basic facts about mortgages and interest rates that no one who bought a house before 2008 would be unaware of.
    But the fact they felt it needed writing at all.

    I like this bit:

    If you have a £500,000 mortgage your monthly repayments, over 25 years, will be £1,883pcm at one per cent.

    That's about double the average house price in the UK.

    We're all aware that house prices are higher in London but that reveals the absurdity of it.
    Well yes.
    That's a tad over £22.5k per year on your mortgage.
    Average UK income is £29.6k. BEFORE TAX!!
    And that's at one percent.
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