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The “Crisis What Crisis” immersive theatrical experience – politicalbetting.com

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  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Tres said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    And if you think the Democrats won’t try to subvert the democratic process to keep themselves in control, I have a bridge to sell you.

    I’ll throw a black / grey swan out there for 2022, namely the mid-terms will be delayed or (maybe more likely) there will be federal intervention that allows blanket voting without ID , plus the allowance of mass postal ballots. Covid will be cited as the reason but the real cause will be that Biden and the Democrats will be scared shitless of getting crushed.
    Why are you so afraid of black people voting?
    I’m not. My wife is one and her votes always go through fine
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    I do not recall candles being needed during the Winter of Discontent - the miners, electricity power workers etc were not involved in the industrial chaos which then engulfed the country. Power cuts and the associated need for candles belonged to the 3-Day Week of the 1973/74 Winter - and before that the first Miners Strike in early 1972.In the Winter of 1970/71 there had also been power cuts when Frank Chappell's power workers took industrial action. All of that happened under Ted Heath's Government - not Callaghan.
    Candles. I still recall the smell of burnt hair if you leant too close.

    Power cuts were always caused by Labour and the Unions. Trash on the streets was always caused by Labour and the Unions. Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions.
    I have voted Tory for most of my adult life, but to state "Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions" suggests you are either so far right you should be wearing jackboots, or you are ignorant of history or perhaps both.
    You may have a small point :)
    And so what I should have said is 'since 1918'.

    I'm depressed to think that you regard anyone that disagrees with you as wearing jackboots. That suggests to me that you're biased in all sorts of bad ways. However I am most certainly ignorant as to much of history. You will be too.

    I do not know of a single good thing that Labour or the Unions have done since 1918.

    @Nigel_Foremain
    Where to begin... A few random thoughts:

    The NHS
    The Equal Pay Act 1970
    The Sex Discrimination Act 1975
    The Race Relations Act 1976
    The Good Friday Agreement
    The repeal of Section 28
    You missed out Sexual Offences Act 1967.

    NHS was pretty cross-party (and so arguably was a lot of other stuff, SOA included).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614
    edited August 2021
    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden will resign or be removed on medical grounds soon I suspect.

    Harris would be even worse
    Yep, quite the shit show ....
    Romney would easily beat either of them in 2024 now if he could only somehow get the GOP nomination again
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    Floater said:

    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Biden will resign or be removed on medical grounds soon I suspect.

    I said this might happen a few days ago.
    I said he was unfit a while back ... and got told (by notables on here ) he was fine .....

    Still think that people?
    At what point does Barack take his old friend for a walk and tell him the game is up? Not while there’s chaos at Kabul airport obvs. But they’ll want him out safely before the mid terms surely.
    When people talk about him running next time ..... come on, very little chance
    Depends doesn’t it. We sit here and go “bloody Biden looks like he has dementia! Oh well at least he won’t run next time”.

    But what if you’re his closest advisors and you’ve been whispering to each other for months that he can’t take on board what he’s being advised, is spontaneously angry and forgetful, mentally absent in key meetings. And you’re sat there watching the videos from Kabul, fielding the calls from your opposite numbers in NATO, and know it’s partly your fault for keeping the guy in place.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Quincel said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    And if you think the Democrats won’t try to subvert the democratic process to keep themselves in control, I have a bridge to sell you.

    I’ll throw a black / grey swan out there for 2022, namely the mid-terms will be delayed or (maybe more likely) there will be federal intervention that allows blanket voting without ID , plus the allowance of mass postal ballots. Covid will be cited as the reason but the real cause will be that Biden and the Democrats will be scared shitless of getting crushed.
    How much do you want to bet that the mid terms will not be delayed and nor will a federal law be passed allowing voting without ID in all states? Because I think this is almost impossible to happen. Either would require GOP support in the Senate to break the filibuster and that ain't happening.
    I don’t want it happening. The clusterfuck that would cause is far greater an issue than any satisfaction I would get from saying “I told you so”
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,379

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    In Germany if the Union are largest party it would likely still be a Union and SPD coalition with the Greens or FDP added on.

    In Canada, Liberal leakage to the 3rd placed NDP would benefit the 2nd placed Conservatives most under Canadian FPTP of course given the NDP are still 6% behind the Conservatives but the Conservatives now only 2% behind the Liberals.

    It looks like Trudeau will scrape home as largest party but fail to get the majority he wanted

    We've discussed Germany at length and I don't disagree but the gap between the Union and SPD has closed and is closing. It's not inconceivable the SPD could top the poll for the first time since 2002.

    As for Canada, there's a lot going on under the figures I think. There would be a swing from Conservative to NDP as well on these numbers. The NDP were 18 points behind the Conservatives in 2019 - Counsel has the gap at seven so that's a 5.5% swing which is not inconsiderable.

    The question is how the votes will shape up in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia. There's no point the Conservatives piling up votes in Alberta and Saskatchewan if they miss marginals in those other three provinces.
    Canadian Conservatives are weird. They manage to be rather wet and Trumpy at the same time.

    Meanwhile, you have a Woke idiot leading a Wokey centre-Left Blairite party, and then a radical Left Corbynite style party.

    Not exactly an inspiring choice.
    Who exactly are the radical Left Corbynites in Canada?
    And Trudeau resembles Cameron rather than Blair to me.
    I assume they would be the NDP.

    Trudeau is a combination of Cameron, Clegg, Blair, JFK and Macron (and if rumours are to be believed Fidel Castro)
    I know very little about Canada, but left-wing friends tell me the NDP is at the social democrat/centrist end of the spectrum, and not proper socialists at all. These things tend to be in the eye of the beholder, but what are their key policies?
    Here is their programme.
    https://www.ndp.ca/commitments
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    That level of concision must serve you well in court.
    Though it's not going to be so good for fee generation is it? ;-)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    I do not recall candles being needed during the Winter of Discontent - the miners, electricity power workers etc were not involved in the industrial chaos which then engulfed the country. Power cuts and the associated need for candles belonged to the 3-Day Week of the 1973/74 Winter - and before that the first Miners Strike in early 1972.In the Winter of 1970/71 there had also been power cuts when Frank Chappell's power workers took industrial action. All of that happened under Ted Heath's Government - not Callaghan.
    Candles. I still recall the smell of burnt hair if you leant too close.

    Power cuts were always caused by Labour and the Unions. Trash on the streets was always caused by Labour and the Unions. Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions.
    I have voted Tory for most of my adult life, but to state "Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions" suggests you are either so far right you should be wearing jackboots, or you are ignorant of history or perhaps both.
    You may have a small point :)
    And so what I should have said is 'since 1918'.

    I'm depressed to think that you regard anyone that disagrees with you as wearing jackboots. That suggests to me that you're biased in all sorts of bad ways. However I am most certainly ignorant as to much of history. You will be too.

    I do not know of a single good thing that Labour or the Unions have done since 1918.

    @Nigel_Foremain
    Where to begin... A few random thoughts:

    The NHS
    The Equal Pay Act 1970
    The Sex Discrimination Act 1975
    The Race Relations Act 1976
    The Good Friday Agreement
    The repeal of Section 28
    I always recall Cameron in the 2010 debates in his opening remarks saying not everything Labour (presumably 1997-2010 specifically) did was bad, and they'd keep the good stuff, presumably to reassure people.

    Though not everyone may agree with all of his suggested list from this 2009 speech

    And let's be clear: not everything Labour did was wrong.

    Devolution; the minimum wage; civil partnerships, these are good things that we will we keep.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/08/david-cameron-speech-in-full
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,069
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    “But, but…he’s not Trump!!!”

    I told this forum last year that Biden would be an absolute disaster and, while Trump had huge faults, given the world where we are, he was the better choice in a two horse race.

    I hope you Biden Fanboys are happy tonight.
    I don't know why you seem to think the only option in disagreement to you is Biden fanboy. Biden or Trump fanboy are not the only option, nor even that they must be equal in horribleness.

    Since you took the view that Biden had huge faults but you consider he was the better choice in a two horse race, and presumably still do despite Jan 6th and all the rest, why is it unreasonable someone might look at recent events and still decide Biden was the better choice, particular with the information at that time?

    Can people not undertake the same process of weughing things up as you have, reach a different conclusion, and not be a fanboy?
    Disastrous foreign policy decisions are par for the course with US presidents, fomenting rebellion and a nascent attemp to establish a dictatorship within the US of A isn't.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Trump would have been worse. The US would no longer be a democracy. It simply was a very lousy choice.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    In Germany if the Union are largest party it would likely still be a Union and SPD coalition with the Greens or FDP added on.

    In Canada, Liberal leakage to the 3rd placed NDP would benefit the 2nd placed Conservatives most under Canadian FPTP of course given the NDP are still 6% behind the Conservatives but the Conservatives now only 2% behind the Liberals.

    It looks like Trudeau will scrape home as largest party but fail to get the majority he wanted

    We've discussed Germany at length and I don't disagree but the gap between the Union and SPD has closed and is closing. It's not inconceivable the SPD could top the poll for the first time since 2002.

    As for Canada, there's a lot going on under the figures I think. There would be a swing from Conservative to NDP as well on these numbers. The NDP were 18 points behind the Conservatives in 2019 - Counsel has the gap at seven so that's a 5.5% swing which is not inconsiderable.

    The question is how the votes will shape up in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia. There's no point the Conservatives piling up votes in Alberta and Saskatchewan if they miss marginals in those other three provinces.
    Canadian Conservatives are weird. They manage to be rather wet and Trumpy at the same time.

    Meanwhile, you have a Woke idiot leading a Wokey centre-Left Blairite party, and then a radical Left Corbynite style party.

    Not exactly an inspiring choice.
    Who exactly are the radical Left Corbynites in Canada?
    And Trudeau resembles Cameron rather than Blair to me.
    I assume they would be the NDP.

    Trudeau is a combination of Cameron, Clegg, Blair, JFK and Macron (and if rumours are to be believed Fidel Castro)
    I know very little about Canada, but left-wing friends tell me the NDP is at the social democrat/centrist end of the spectrum, and not proper socialists at all. These things tend to be in the eye of the beholder, but what are their key policies?
    The NDP are certainly left of the Canadian Liberals and US Democrats, they are the only major social democratic party in North America.

    Even if not Corbynite they would certainly easily slot into Starmer Labour, Trudeau's Liberals are naturally closer to the LDs ideoligically
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    You're like @contrarian who is forever trying to get a "They laughed then/they're not laughing now" narrative off the ground and failing catastrophically. I can promise you, we are still laughing at you so hard we are in danger of fouling ourselves.
    You might be but you still haven’t answered the central point, namely how can you defend the idea that Biden was the better choice for President. He’s shit, far worse than Trump and a laughing stock to boot.

    And that would be fine except he’s not in a David Brent style role; he’s the leader of the Free World.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    I do not recall candles being needed during the Winter of Discontent - the miners, electricity power workers etc were not involved in the industrial chaos which then engulfed the country. Power cuts and the associated need for candles belonged to the 3-Day Week of the 1973/74 Winter - and before that the first Miners Strike in early 1972.In the Winter of 1970/71 there had also been power cuts when Frank Chappell's power workers took industrial action. All of that happened under Ted Heath's Government - not Callaghan.
    Candles. I still recall the smell of burnt hair if you leant too close.

    Power cuts were always caused by Labour and the Unions. Trash on the streets was always caused by Labour and the Unions. Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions.
    I have voted Tory for most of my adult life, but to state "Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions" suggests you are either so far right you should be wearing jackboots, or you are ignorant of history or perhaps both.
    You may have a small point :)
    And so what I should have said is 'since 1918'.

    I'm depressed to think that you regard anyone that disagrees with you as wearing jackboots. That suggests to me that you're biased in all sorts of bad ways. However I am most certainly ignorant as to much of history. You will be too.

    I do not know of a single good thing that Labour or the Unions have done since 1918.

    @Nigel_Foremain
    Where to begin... A few random thoughts:

    The NHS
    The Equal Pay Act 1970
    The Sex Discrimination Act 1975
    The Race Relations Act 1976
    The Good Friday Agreement
    The repeal of Section 28
    You missed out Sexual Offences Act 1967.

    NHS was pretty cross-party (and so arguably was a lot of other stuff, SOA included).
    I missed a lot; it was a few random thoughts.

    NHS, I grant you but on the SOA, according to Wiki:

    "Both the major parties permitted a conscience vote. Labour and Liberal members were mostly in favour, while Conservative members were mostly opposed."
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    MrEd said:

    Quincel said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    And if you think the Democrats won’t try to subvert the democratic process to keep themselves in control, I have a bridge to sell you.

    I’ll throw a black / grey swan out there for 2022, namely the mid-terms will be delayed or (maybe more likely) there will be federal intervention that allows blanket voting without ID , plus the allowance of mass postal ballots. Covid will be cited as the reason but the real cause will be that Biden and the Democrats will be scared shitless of getting crushed.
    How much do you want to bet that the mid terms will not be delayed and nor will a federal law be passed allowing voting without ID in all states? Because I think this is almost impossible to happen. Either would require GOP support in the Senate to break the filibuster and that ain't happening.
    I don’t want it happening. The clusterfuck that would cause is far greater an issue than any satisfaction I would get from saying “I told you so”
    Fair enough. I don't want it happening either, I'm just saying that I think those sorts of extreme measures which require massive legislative efforts are vastly overrated in my view. Some stuff being done by Democrat-controlled states is more possible, much as Republicans are changing voting rules but only in their states (and made no big federal changes even when they had all 3 of the House/Senate/WH) and via court action.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,444
    DavidL said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Trump would have been worse. The US would no longer be a democracy. It simply was a very lousy choice.
    If Trump had won the election, how would that have meant the US was no longer a democracy?
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,689
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    You're like @contrarian who is forever trying to get a "They laughed then/they're not laughing now" narrative off the ground and failing catastrophically. I can promise you, we are still laughing at you so hard we are in danger of fouling ourselves.
    You might be but you still haven’t answered the central point, namely how can you defend the idea that Biden was the better choice for President. He’s shit, far worse than Trump and a laughing stock to boot.

    And that would be fine except he’s not in a David Brent style role; he’s the leader of the Free World.
    Well for a start he isn't a bigoted Republican.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,069
    The war in Afghanistan 🇦🇫 isn't over yet I think, Bagram looks an obvious battle zone shortly to me.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just watched Highlander for the first time.

    Very cheesy film but worth it for the Sean Connery cameo, and the Queen soundtrack - which is superb.

    Did they ever write a bad song?

    Yes.

    Every great songwriter has written lots of poor material.
    Dylan?
    Dylan is a tricky one. I am so addicted to Blood on the Tracks that I’ve a very sketchy understanding of the rest of his career, especially the post 70s stuff.

    I can’t point out a bad song, but surely there must be one or two.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1428796629872746501

    NEW: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a briefing call with House lawmakers just now said Americans have been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul, according to multiple people on the call. Austin called it “unacceptable.”

    Confirms what i posted earlier.

    There is a story US troop went outside the airport on a extraction operation but no confirmation on that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden will resign or be removed on medical grounds soon I suspect.

    Harris would be even worse
    Yep, quite the shit show ....
    Romney would easily beat either of them in 2024 now if he could only somehow get the GOP nomination again
    I would easily win the National Lottery if only I could somehow guess the the right numbers.

    More chance of that than Romney getting the GOP nomination.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,444
    How did we get into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? No-one ever voted for such a policy, and wouldn't have had much support.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    Andy_JS said:

    DavidL said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Trump would have been worse. The US would no longer be a democracy. It simply was a very lousy choice.
    If Trump had won the election, how would that have meant the US was no longer a democracy?
    It would have been the last one that came anywhere near meeting the standard.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,897
    Andy_JS said:

    How did we get into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? No-one ever voted for such a policy, and wouldn't have had much support.

    Many policies aren't voted for, we're not in a direct democracy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024
    pigeon said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    A wake up call to European leaders to look to their own defences and re-arm.

    Will they? Probably not.

    Britain certainly won't. Any limited funds the Treasury can muster will all be earmarked for paying heftier bribes to the elderly.
    That's a little harsh. After Trump (rightly) berated Merkel for Germany not spending enough on defence, they've substantially increased spending. They've gone from 1.2% of GDP at the low in 2016 to 1.68% this year, and they'll be at 2% by about 2025.

    Quick enough? Probably not. But at least heading in the right direction.
  • Andy_JS said:

    How did we get into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? No-one ever voted for such a policy, and wouldn't have had much support.

    There's never a shortage of 'save the world' types or Lord Curzon colonial wannabes in parliament.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden will resign or be removed on medical grounds soon I suspect.

    Harris would be even worse
    Yep, quite the shit show ....
    Romney would easily beat either of them in 2024 now if he could only somehow get the GOP nomination again
    I would easily win the National Lottery if only I could somehow guess the the right numbers.

    More chance of that than Romney getting the GOP nomination.
    The latest polling shows most Republican voters now oppose the withdrawal as Romney did, it would probably require Trump to be arrested for his tax returns or something making him ineligible but it is not impossible.

    Romney is 74 so younger than Trump and Biden are now and by far the best candidate of either party in terms of experience and policy for 2024 in my view
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    And if you think the Democrats won’t try to subvert the democratic process to keep themselves in control, I have a bridge to sell you.

    I’ll throw a black / grey swan out there for 2022, namely the mid-terms will be delayed or (maybe more likely) there will be federal intervention that allows blanket voting without ID , plus the allowance of mass postal ballots. Covid will be cited as the reason but the real cause will be that Biden and the Democrats will be scared shitless of getting crushed.
    Another MrEd prediction to add to the portfolio, along with:

    • The GOP will win the House in the 2018 midterms
    • Virginia is in play for Trump
    • Fox made the wrong call on Nevada
    • Trump will win the 2020 election


    The thing that astounds me about Mr Ed is his enduring confidence despite being serially wrong.

    Funny old world.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Andy_JS said:

    How did we get into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? No-one ever voted for such a policy, and wouldn't have had much support.

    That's what happens when you bomb the shit out of somewhere and kick the bad guys who were in power out. You're then committing yourself to putting something else there instead, in the hope that the folk who ran away and hid from your bombs won't just walk back in after your jets and troops go back home.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,171
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    “But, but…he’s not Trump!!!”

    I told this forum last year that Biden would be an absolute disaster and, while Trump had huge faults, given the world where we are, he was the better choice in a two horse race.

    I hope you Biden Fanboys are happy tonight.
    There are no Biden fanboys.

    There were never Biden fanboys.

    There were merely people who thought a bad President was better than someone who was completely willing to disrespect democratic norms.

    So yes, I am happy.

    I am also sorry for the people of Afghanistan and for America and Biden's failings. And I'm also pretty unimpressed by the way you've managed to airbrush your idol's role in this out.
    Indeed - the most positive thing I ever saw written on this site about Biden was "he's the dem candidate most likely to beat Trump" (anyway pretty debatable)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,566
    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    “But, but…he’s not Trump!!!”

    I told this forum last year that Biden would be an absolute disaster and, while Trump had huge faults, given the world where we are, he was the better choice in a two horse race.

    I hope you Biden Fanboys are happy tonight.
    There are no Biden fanboys.

    There were never Biden fanboys.

    There were merely people who thought a bad President was better than someone who was completely willing to disrespect democratic norms.

    So yes, I am happy.

    I am also sorry for the people of Afghanistan and for America and Biden's failings. And I'm also pretty unimpressed by the way you've managed to airbrush your idol's role in this out.
    "willing to disrespect democratic norms."

    A nice euphemism for trying to organize a f*cking coup d'etat.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,897

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
    I had just assumed it was from US sources given the news outlet.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    You're like @contrarian who is forever trying to get a "They laughed then/they're not laughing now" narrative off the ground and failing catastrophically. I can promise you, we are still laughing at you so hard we are in danger of fouling ourselves.
    You might be but you still haven’t answered the central point, namely how can you defend the idea that Biden was the better choice for President. He’s shit, far worse than Trump and a laughing stock to boot.

    And that would be fine except he’s not in a David Brent style role; he’s the leader of the Free World.
    Just silly. We all knew he was weak and too old for the job, but Trump in a second term without reelection concerns to worry about? You really need to elevate the debate a little bit higher than the My candidate is the greatest/your candidate smells of wee level. What really smells of wee is a political system which offers a choice between two such appalling disasters as Trump/Clinton one time and Trump/Biden next.

    For what it's worth, I am confident Trump would have made a better fist of Afghanistan. That doesn't make him the better choice of president.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614
    edited August 2021
    Yokes said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1428796629872746501

    NEW: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a briefing call with House lawmakers just now said Americans have been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul, according to multiple people on the call. Austin called it “unacceptable.”

    Confirms what i posted earlier.

    There is a story US troop went outside the airport on a extraction operation but no confirmation on that.
    US Defense Secretary “We’re also aware that some ppl including Americans have been harassed & even beaten by the Taliban. This is unacceptable & [we] made it clear to the designated Taliban leader.”

    Pathetic the supposed most powerful nation on the planet can do no more to the Taliban than a primary school teacher to a 10 year old to defend their own people let alone Afghanis
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,518
    HYUFD said:



    The NDP are certainly left of the Canadian Liberals and US Democrats, they are the only major social democratic party in North America.

    Even if not Corbynite they would certainly easily slot into Starmer Labour, Trudeau's Liberals are naturally closer to the LDs ideoligically

    Being left of the Democrats doesn't make you a Corbynite by a long chalk. I think my friends were saying much the same as you - they're something like Starmer Labour. Nothing wrong with that, but hardly alarming.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    I do not recall candles being needed during the Winter of Discontent - the miners, electricity power workers etc were not involved in the industrial chaos which then engulfed the country. Power cuts and the associated need for candles belonged to the 3-Day Week of the 1973/74 Winter - and before that the first Miners Strike in early 1972.In the Winter of 1970/71 there had also been power cuts when Frank Chappell's power workers took industrial action. All of that happened under Ted Heath's Government - not Callaghan.
    Candles. I still recall the smell of burnt hair if you leant too close.

    Power cuts were always caused by Labour and the Unions. Trash on the streets was always caused by Labour and the Unions. Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions.
    I have voted Tory for most of my adult life, but to state "Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions" suggests you are either so far right you should be wearing jackboots, or you are ignorant of history or perhaps both.
    You may have a small point :)
    And so what I should have said is 'since 1918'.

    I'm depressed to think that you regard anyone that disagrees with you as wearing jackboots. That suggests to me that you're biased in all sorts of bad ways. However I am most certainly ignorant as to much of history. You will be too.

    I do not know of a single good thing that Labour or the Unions have done since 1918.

    @Nigel_Foremain
    Where to begin... A few random thoughts:

    The NHS
    The Equal Pay Act 1970
    The Sex Discrimination Act 1975
    The Race Relations Act 1976
    The Good Friday Agreement
    The repeal of Section 28
    Notable omissions:

    Scotland Act 1998
    Not proud of that one? 😄

    Bank of England Act 1998 ?
    National Minimum Wage Act 1998 ?

    Blair and Brown really were a pair of total duds.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    rcs1000 said:

    President Joe Biden told key allies in June that he would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan to ensure they could continue to operate in the capital following the main U.S. withdrawal, a vow made before the Taliban’s rapid final push across the country, according to a British diplomatic memo seen by Bloomberg.

    Biden promised U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and other leaders at the Group of Seven summit in Cornwall, England, that “critical U.S. enablers” would remain in place to keep Kabul safe following the drawdown of NATO forces, the note said. British officials determined the U.S. would provide enough personnel to ensure that the U.K. embassy in Kabul could continue operating.


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-20/biden-assured-allies-in-june-u-s-would-ensure-kabul-s-stability

    That was four, five days ago man!
    The biggest error was pulling the advisor and contractor support out. It effectively screwed their air support.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024
    edited August 2021
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    And if you think the Democrats won’t try to subvert the democratic process to keep themselves in control, I have a bridge to sell you.

    I’ll throw a black / grey swan out there for 2022, namely the mid-terms will be delayed or (maybe more likely) there will be federal intervention that allows blanket voting without ID , plus the allowance of mass postal ballots. Covid will be cited as the reason but the real cause will be that Biden and the Democrats will be scared shitless of getting crushed.
    So, you think the Supreme Court - which has repeatedly refused to stop even the most partisan of gerrymanderings* and which gutted the Voting Rights Act - is going to allow it?

    Well, we'll never know. Because (a) it's the States who decide these things and not the Federal Government. And (b) Biden administration is not going to issue an Executive Order on it anyway.

    * And yes, I do know the Democrats are also guilty of gerrymandering
  • RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
    I had just assumed it was from US sources given the news outlet.
    It would indicate that being bloomberg tweeted it but some want to say it was Boris or HMG as a dead cat, hence my query about the source
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024
    MrEd said:

    Biden will resign or be removed on medical grounds soon I suspect.

    Removed.

    Why do you think Pelosi mentioned this last year?

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/pelosi-unveils-25th-amendment-bid-questions-trumps-fitness-donald-trump-congress-washington-president-white-house-b913095.html?amp

    I think there is a question to be asked here whether Pelosi et al were preparing the ground here for Biden to be removed at some point

    He won't be removed. If he sees that the 25th would be successfully used, he will resign. It's like companies - no-one is ever fired, they always resign.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
    According to the Bloomberg report, it's from a British diplomatic memo. I don't know what their circulation list is, but I can't imagine it goes much beyond Westminster.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,518
    dixiedean said:



    I know very little about Canada, but left-wing friends tell me the NDP is at the social democrat/centrist end of the spectrum, and not proper socialists at all. These things tend to be in the eye of the beholder, but what are their key policies?

    Here is their programme.
    https://www.ndp.ca/commitments
    Thanks! A quick look does indeed look Starrmerish, and a little vague. Better job training, Help for small businesses. Caring for the environment. Fairer taxes. I'd vote for all that, but it's not very stirring stuff.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,609

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    I do not recall candles being needed during the Winter of Discontent - the miners, electricity power workers etc were not involved in the industrial chaos which then engulfed the country. Power cuts and the associated need for candles belonged to the 3-Day Week of the 1973/74 Winter - and before that the first Miners Strike in early 1972.In the Winter of 1970/71 there had also been power cuts when Frank Chappell's power workers took industrial action. All of that happened under Ted Heath's Government - not Callaghan.
    Candles. I still recall the smell of burnt hair if you leant too close.

    Power cuts were always caused by Labour and the Unions. Trash on the streets was always caused by Labour and the Unions. Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions.
    I have voted Tory for most of my adult life, but to state "Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions" suggests you are either so far right you should be wearing jackboots, or you are ignorant of history or perhaps both.
    You may have a small point :)
    And so what I should have said is 'since 1918'.

    I'm depressed to think that you regard anyone that disagrees with you as wearing jackboots. That suggests to me that you're biased in all sorts of bad ways. However I am most certainly ignorant as to much of history. You will be too.

    I do not know of a single good thing that Labour or the Unions have done since 1918.

    @Nigel_Foremain
    Where to begin... A few random thoughts:

    The NHS
    The Equal Pay Act 1970
    The Sex Discrimination Act 1975
    The Race Relations Act 1976
    The Good Friday Agreement
    The repeal of Section 28
    Notable omissions:

    Scotland Act 1998
    Not proud of that one? 😄

    Bank of England Act 1998 ?
    National Minimum Wage Act 1998 ?

    Blair and Brown really were a pair of total duds.
    Given your last sentence I assume the three 'omissions' was sarcasm on your part. I'd say they were all positive changes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,921
    edited August 2021

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
    According to the Bloomberg report, it's from a British diplomatic memo. I don't know what their circulation list is, but I can't imagine it goes much beyond Westminster.
    So you do not know who is on his circulation list
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    What have we done. I feel for the soldiers here. Lions led by Protozoa


    “Help! Taliban is coming. Taliban is coming.”

    Young Afghan woman outside a gate at #Kabul airport pleading for U.S. soldiers to let her, and other civilians, in.’

    https://twitter.com/frudbezhan/status/1428032250239668226?s=21

    The point must be coming when Biden rows back on leaving in his time scale

    Will be interesting what he says shortly
    There shouldn’t even be a bloody stupid time scale. Biden should have ripped up Trump’s moronic agreement, slowly started moving people out, kept bagram open just in case, put in MORE troops to aid a slow, thorough withdrawal. And right at the end you sabotage all weapons if you do have to get everyone out. Meanwhile start arming potential taliban adversaries

    And, also, fuck Pakistan. Frankly. This country is no friend of the West.
    I cannot understand why Pakistan has not been put under more pressure by the West. They have been arming the Taliban and giving them sanctuary. The Taliban don't have munitions factories. One has to assume they have got their weapons and materiel from Pakistan.
    I don’t get it either
    Pakistan is a nation founded expressly as an Islamic state and is nuclear capable.

    Do you feel lucky?
    We are not obliged to give them aid, or allow migration therefrom, for starters. It’s a hostile power
    Exactly what I said the other day. They are not our friends.
    Here’s one of your BetterTogether2 pals David: the Governor of Punjab. Got a D-list celeb son, a wholesaler.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaudhry_Mohammad_Sarwar
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,566
    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    “But, but…he’s not Trump!!!”

    I told this forum last year that Biden would be an absolute disaster and, while Trump had huge faults, given the world where we are, he was the better choice in a two horse race.

    I hope you Biden Fanboys are happy tonight.
    There are no Biden fanboys.

    There were never Biden fanboys.

    There were merely people who thought a bad President was better than someone who was completely willing to disrespect democratic norms.

    So yes, I am happy.

    I am also sorry for the people of Afghanistan and for America and Biden's failings. And I'm also pretty unimpressed by the way you've managed to airbrush your idol's role in this out.
    Indeed - the most positive thing I ever saw written on this site about Biden was "he's the dem candidate most likely to beat Trump" (anyway pretty debatable)
    He was the only one who could have beaten Trump. Look how close it was in the end.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    Yokes said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1428796629872746501

    NEW: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a briefing call with House lawmakers just now said Americans have been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul, according to multiple people on the call. Austin called it “unacceptable.”

    Confirms what i posted earlier.

    There is a story US troop went outside the airport on a extraction operation but no confirmation on that.
    Update, no sign they did.

    US contractors have apparently been working with the British on extraction operations. Would make sense. Its part of their job to manage security for clients on the ground so they would have a good picture including of some UK types they are there advise on security/protect.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    I do not recall candles being needed during the Winter of Discontent - the miners, electricity power workers etc were not involved in the industrial chaos which then engulfed the country. Power cuts and the associated need for candles belonged to the 3-Day Week of the 1973/74 Winter - and before that the first Miners Strike in early 1972.In the Winter of 1970/71 there had also been power cuts when Frank Chappell's power workers took industrial action. All of that happened under Ted Heath's Government - not Callaghan.
    Candles. I still recall the smell of burnt hair if you leant too close.

    Power cuts were always caused by Labour and the Unions. Trash on the streets was always caused by Labour and the Unions. Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions.
    I have voted Tory for most of my adult life, but to state "Nothing good has ever come from Labour and the Unions" suggests you are either so far right you should be wearing jackboots, or you are ignorant of history or perhaps both.
    You may have a small point :)
    Although the symbiotic relationship is not particularly healthy for either.

    I suspect Labour would do better if it was not tied to the Unions, and that the unions would do a better job of looking after working people/their members if they weren’t playing partisan parliamentary politics
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Just watched Highlander for the first time.

    Very cheesy film but worth it for the Sean Connery cameo, and the Queen soundtrack - which is superb.

    Did they ever write a bad song?

    Yes.

    Every great songwriter has written lots of poor material.
    Dylan?
    Dylan is a tricky one. I am so addicted to Blood on the Tracks that I’ve a very sketchy understanding of the rest of his career, especially the post 70s stuff.

    I can’t point out a bad song, but surely there must be one or two.
    My favourite album (not just Dylan album) of all time. I have to admit I kind of lose track of what he did after that.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited August 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    A wake up call to European leaders to look to their own defences and re-arm.

    Will they? Probably not.

    Britain certainly won't. Any limited funds the Treasury can muster will all be earmarked for paying heftier bribes to the elderly.
    That's a little harsh. After Trump (rightly) berated Merkel for Germany not spending enough on defence, they've substantially increased spending. They've gone from 1.2% of GDP at the low in 2016 to 1.68% this year, and they'll be at 2% by about 2025.

    Quick enough? Probably not. But at least heading in the right direction.
    The US is also currently making a very compelling case to all other NATO nations wrt maintaining the 2% target...
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758


    Biden was pretty ineffectual at the height of his powers, about 20 years ago.

    He was a reasonable Veep. He should have left it there.

    But, he always wanted to be President.

    He now has unmistakable signs of early stage dementia.

    Poor old Joe Biden.

    I remember back when Martin Charteris was Provost I asked him what his and the Vice Provost’s jobs were.

    I’ll never forget his response:

    “The Provost’s job is to do nothing. The Vice Provost’s job is to help him.”

    Avery good summary of the Monarch’s role and responsibilities (the Provost is the Queen's personal representative)

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,838
    This comes perilously close to refuting BROTH….

    Vegetable soup remedy touted by Sri Lankan Facebook users cannot cure Covid-19
    https://factcheck.afp.com/http%3A%2F%2Fdoc.afp.com%2F9LA9WZ-1
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    What have we done. I feel for the soldiers here. Lions led by Protozoa


    “Help! Taliban is coming. Taliban is coming.”

    Young Afghan woman outside a gate at #Kabul airport pleading for U.S. soldiers to let her, and other civilians, in.’

    https://twitter.com/frudbezhan/status/1428032250239668226?s=21

    The point must be coming when Biden rows back on leaving in his time scale

    Will be interesting what he says shortly
    There shouldn’t even be a bloody stupid time scale. Biden should have ripped up Trump’s moronic agreement, slowly started moving people out, kept bagram open just in case, put in MORE troops to aid a slow, thorough withdrawal. And right at the end you sabotage all weapons if you do have to get everyone out. Meanwhile start arming potential taliban adversaries

    And, also, fuck Pakistan. Frankly. This country is no friend of the West.
    I cannot understand why Pakistan has not been put under more pressure by the West. They have been arming the Taliban and giving them sanctuary. The Taliban don't have munitions factories. One has to assume they have got their weapons and materiel from Pakistan.
    I don’t get it either
    Pakistan is a nation founded expressly as an Islamic state and is nuclear capable.

    Do you feel lucky?
    We are not obliged to give them aid, or allow migration therefrom, for starters. It’s a hostile power
    Exactly what I said the other day. They are not our friends.
    They invented the "Taliban" and researched the name to find the best one.....
    Yeah but in collaboration with the CIA because the mujahideen were fighting the Soviets. And of course, in the cold war, Pakistan was closer to us whereas India was seen as pro-Soviet.
    A pattern of foot-shooting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1428796629872746501

    NEW: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a briefing call with House lawmakers just now said Americans have been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul, according to multiple people on the call. Austin called it “unacceptable.”

    Confirms what i posted earlier.

    There is a story US troop went outside the airport on a extraction operation but no confirmation on that.
    Update, no sign they did.

    US contractors have apparently been working with the British on extraction operations. Would make sense. Its part of their job to manage security for clients on the ground so they would have a good picture including of some UK types they are there advise on security/protect.
    If the Brits, the French, the French for god's sake and the Germans persist in extraction operations the American forces at the Airport will be utterly humiliated and eventually Biden will have to follow track but right now his Presidency is very much on the line.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,171

    kamski said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MrEd said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    This is shocking and really needs the press to go to town on how Biden betrayed the UK, France, Germany and Nato allies

    And by the way explains why none of these countries expected the immediate collapse of Kabul

    Time for this forum to utterly condemn Biden
    “But, but…he’s not Trump!!!”

    I told this forum last year that Biden would be an absolute disaster and, while Trump had huge faults, given the world where we are, he was the better choice in a two horse race.

    I hope you Biden Fanboys are happy tonight.
    There are no Biden fanboys.

    There were never Biden fanboys.

    There were merely people who thought a bad President was better than someone who was completely willing to disrespect democratic norms.

    So yes, I am happy.

    I am also sorry for the people of Afghanistan and for America and Biden's failings. And I'm also pretty unimpressed by the way you've managed to airbrush your idol's role in this out.
    Indeed - the most positive thing I ever saw written on this site about Biden was "he's the dem candidate most likely to beat Trump" (anyway pretty debatable)
    He was the only one who could have beaten Trump. Look how close it was in the end.
    That could equally mean that Biden wasn't such a great candidate if he almost lost. After all, we're always told what an absolutely unbelievably terrible candidate H. Clinton was, but Biden barely did better - he only improved Clinton's national lead by 2%, in arguably more favorable circumstances. If you compare with the House elections held at the same time, Clinton did 3% better than Democrats nationally in terms of vote margin, whereas Biden only did 2% better than Democrats nationally. So maybe Biden was actually worse candidate than the terrible candidate Clinton.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
    According to the Bloomberg report, it's from a British diplomatic memo. I don't know what their circulation list is, but I can't imagine it goes much beyond Westminster.
    So you do not know who is on his circulation list
    No, I don't know any more than you. But if you apply means/motive/opportunity, and note that the report has come from Bloomberg's European correspondent, then the balance of probabilities points very much towards London, does it not?

    And even if it doesn't- whoever leaked this now should be ashamed of themselves. If they are close enough to the action to have access to this document, they have better, more life-saving things to be doing right now. Save this for the inquest.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1428796629872746501

    NEW: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a briefing call with House lawmakers just now said Americans have been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul, according to multiple people on the call. Austin called it “unacceptable.”

    Confirms what i posted earlier.

    There is a story US troop went outside the airport on a extraction operation but no confirmation on that.
    Update, no sign they did.

    US contractors have apparently been working with the British on extraction operations. Would make sense. Its part of their job to manage security for clients on the ground so they would have a good picture including of some UK types they are there advise on security/protect.
    I have no insight into this whatsoever but my reading of what is happening is this:

    I don’t think the British have done a deal with the Taliban on extraction. There’s too much of a risk it is found out which would cause huge political ructions.

    To me, what’s more likely is the British (and French) have gone “we’re getting out contacts out and if you as the Taliban want to try it on, so be it.” My reading of the Taliban is they are fairly weak in Kabul and don’t want a full on firefight with British and French forces which would seriously hit their strength in Kabul.

    If that’s right, interesting question as to why the Americans are not going out.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Biden will resign or be removed on medical grounds soon I suspect.

    Harris would be even worse
    We don't really know what she would be like, she's a bit of an unknown quantity.
    Based on her performance in California she with new unbelievably shit
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    True but Xi, Putin, the Taliban etc were still uncertain about what Trump would do.

    None of them fear Biden and Harris at all and they will do entirely what they want for the next 4 years.

    The US urgently needs a non Trumpite Republican or non woke Democrat as President
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,233
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    In Germany if the Union are largest party it would likely still be a Union and SPD coalition with the Greens or FDP added on.

    In Canada, Liberal leakage to the 3rd placed NDP would benefit the 2nd placed Conservatives most under Canadian FPTP of course given the NDP are still 6% behind the Conservatives but the Conservatives now only 2% behind the Liberals.

    It looks like Trudeau will scrape home as largest party but fail to get the majority he wanted

    We've discussed Germany at length and I don't disagree but the gap between the Union and SPD has closed and is closing. It's not inconceivable the SPD could top the poll for the first time since 2002.

    As for Canada, there's a lot going on under the figures I think. There would be a swing from Conservative to NDP as well on these numbers. The NDP were 18 points behind the Conservatives in 2019 - Counsel has the gap at seven so that's a 5.5% swing which is not inconsiderable.

    The question is how the votes will shape up in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia. There's no point the Conservatives piling up votes in Alberta and Saskatchewan if they miss marginals in those other three provinces.
    Canadian Conservatives are weird. They manage to be rather wet and Trumpy at the same time.

    Meanwhile, you have a Woke idiot leading a Wokey centre-Left Blairite party, and then a radical Left Corbynite style party.

    Not exactly an inspiring choice.
    Who exactly are the radical Left Corbynites in Canada?
    And Trudeau resembles Cameron rather than Blair to me.
    God, no, he's not Cameron. Not in the slightest. This is a guy who corrects people saying "mankind" to "peoplekind" and says stuff like "shecession". He's an embarrassing Woke millennial twat.

    More like a far younger Nick Clegg but with the politics of Chukka Umunna.
    He puts a smiley, shiny face on the economic status quo. Which sometimes takes on a darker hue.
    He's pure cringe.

    https://youtu.be/y0YKsEtw1AY
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    I was in the audience for Any Questions tonight. I thought James Heappey (Tory MP, Armed Forces minister and ex-Major in the army) was very impressive. He seemed incredibly genuine whilst being quite direct in his answers, even saying that it was likely we would not get everyone out from Kabul. I hope he gets a promotion. Struck me as someone who could make a very good Prime Minister. Worth a listen.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000yvb4
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,518



    Here’s one of your BetterTogether2 pals David: the Governor of Punjab. Got a D-list celeb son, a wholesaler.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaudhry_Mohammad_Sarwar

    I knew him personally quite well - an intelligent, courageous man. Unlike me, he refused to speak to audiences segregated by gender (though he said it was easier for him to insist as a fellow-Muslim).
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    I don't see *any* evidence that he wouldn't have done the same withdrawal from Afg, if not doing it even faster. This shitshow would have also happened under Trump, but he may have injected some new madness.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    In Germany if the Union are largest party it would likely still be a Union and SPD coalition with the Greens or FDP added on.

    In Canada, Liberal leakage to the 3rd placed NDP would benefit the 2nd placed Conservatives most under Canadian FPTP of course given the NDP are still 6% behind the Conservatives but the Conservatives now only 2% behind the Liberals.

    It looks like Trudeau will scrape home as largest party but fail to get the majority he wanted

    We've discussed Germany at length and I don't disagree but the gap between the Union and SPD has closed and is closing. It's not inconceivable the SPD could top the poll for the first time since 2002.

    As for Canada, there's a lot going on under the figures I think. There would be a swing from Conservative to NDP as well on these numbers. The NDP were 18 points behind the Conservatives in 2019 - Counsel has the gap at seven so that's a 5.5% swing which is not inconsiderable.

    The question is how the votes will shape up in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia. There's no point the Conservatives piling up votes in Alberta and Saskatchewan if they miss marginals in those other three provinces.
    Canadian Conservatives are weird. They manage to be rather wet and Trumpy at the same time.

    Meanwhile, you have a Woke idiot leading a Wokey centre-Left Blairite party, and then a radical Left Corbynite style party.

    Not exactly an inspiring choice.
    Who exactly are the radical Left Corbynites in Canada?
    And Trudeau resembles Cameron rather than Blair to me.
    God, no, he's not Cameron. Not in the slightest. This is a guy who corrects people saying "mankind" to "peoplekind" and says stuff like "shecession". He's an embarrassing Woke millennial twat.

    More like a far younger Nick Clegg but with the politics of Chukka Umunna.
    He puts a smiley, shiny face on the economic status quo. Which sometimes takes on a darker hue.
    He's pure cringe.

    https://youtu.be/y0YKsEtw1AY
    Please tag NSFH videos as such.

    Thx
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614
    Chameleon said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    I don't see *any* evidence that he wouldn't have done the same withdrawal from Afg, if not doing it even faster. This shitshow would have also happened under Trump, but he may have injected some new madness.
    Trump would probably at least have bombed the Taliban to bits if they threatened the withdrawal of US citizens and allies.

    Not done sod all about it as this administration seems to be doing tonight
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited August 2021
    Yokes said:

    rcs1000 said:

    President Joe Biden told key allies in June that he would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan to ensure they could continue to operate in the capital following the main U.S. withdrawal, a vow made before the Taliban’s rapid final push across the country, according to a British diplomatic memo seen by Bloomberg.

    Biden promised U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and other leaders at the Group of Seven summit in Cornwall, England, that “critical U.S. enablers” would remain in place to keep Kabul safe following the drawdown of NATO forces, the note said. British officials determined the U.S. would provide enough personnel to ensure that the U.K. embassy in Kabul could continue operating.


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-20/biden-assured-allies-in-june-u-s-would-ensure-kabul-s-stability

    That was four, five days ago man!
    The biggest error was pulling the advisor and contractor support out. It effectively screwed their air support.
    Yep, iirc 70% of maintenance crews for the Afghan airforce were contractors, so the moment Biden prevented them from working he effectively knocked out the entire Afghan airforce, at the same time as withdrawing US air support. Remind me which side he's on again? The Taliban's most effective soldier is Joe Biden.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    “Disgraceful voter reforms”. What, you mean people have to show ID? Oh my God, how terrible! In a country where 90pc+ have a driving licence.

    Not sure if you have been listening Philip but do you know about HR1, or the Democrats threatening to pack the Supreme Court or that for 4 years Democrats claimed Trump was an illegitimate President as he was a stooge of Putin?

    Now that is some crazy sh1t.

  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    So, whose SPAD will have done the leaking I wonder?

    Does it matter

    It is sensational and at the same time shocking
    It matters in the fine details, and regarding why it was done. Be it No.10, Raab or some random official of their own initiative, sure, it's out there, but the motivation is still interesting, as no all of the examples have the same one.
    And, even assuming that something like this is true (which is pretty likely), leaking stuff like this isn't what Special Allies Do For Special Allies.
    Are you suggesting that this should have been concealed from public knowledge when Biden has clearly betrayed his allies
    You know what... at this point, I think leaking this was the wrong thing to do.

    There are still people being evacuated from Afghanistan. Right now, the only thing that anyone should be thinking about is how they can get another person to safety. Not passing things to friendly journalists. How is that anything other than a distraction and a comfort to those that the West opposes?

    There will be a time for a reckoning, and based on what we think we know, it's likely that Biden will come out of that badly, as naive, weak and incompetent. And that time is soon, but not tonight.

    And let's do a quick cost-benefit analysis on this. You have had a right to know satisfied. The UK government has found a dead cat to distract from criticisms. But the UKG has shown itself to be less trustworthy with international secrets. That cost is going to roll down the years.
    Just one question do you know the source of the leak
    According to the Bloomberg report, it's from a British diplomatic memo. I don't know what their circulation list is, but I can't imagine it goes much beyond Westminster.
    So you do not know who is on his circulation list
    No, I don't know any more than you. But if you apply means/motive/opportunity, and note that the report has come from Bloomberg's European correspondent, then the balance of probabilities points very much towards London, does it not?

    And even if it doesn't- whoever leaked this now should be ashamed of themselves. If they are close enough to the action to have access to this document, they have better, more life-saving things to be doing right now. Save this for the inquest.
    I do not agree

    This puts everything into perspective and affirms Biden has betrayed his allies, those in danger and the Afghans themselves


  • moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737
    Chameleon said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    I don't see *any* evidence that he wouldn't have done the same withdrawal from Afg, if not doing it even faster. This shitshow would have also happened under Trump, but he may have injected some new madness.
    We can’t observe the parallel history. But perhaps he’s have got better advice on the evacuation. Or perhaps he’s have softened his plan. Certainly if things started to turn into a cluster I can imagine him flexing America’s military muscles. I can’t imagine him ordering thousands of US troops to cower in a civilian airport while thousands of US citizens were in harms way on the side of the barbed wire.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    AlistairM said:

    I was in the audience for Any Questions tonight. I thought James Heappey (Tory MP, Armed Forces minister and ex-Major in the army) was very impressive. He seemed incredibly genuine whilst being quite direct in his answers, even saying that it was likely we would not get everyone out from Kabul. I hope he gets a promotion. Struck me as someone who could make a very good Prime Minister. Worth a listen.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000yvb4

    Check his stats in your Panini Brexit Sticker Album. Remainer, man, fucking Remainer. Fails the Brexit gom jabbar test.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    Chameleon said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    I don't see *any* evidence that he wouldn't have done the same withdrawal from Afg, if not doing it even faster. This shitshow would have also happened under Trump, but he may have injected some new madness.
    Trump would probably at least have bombed the Taliban to bits if they threatened the withdrawal of US citizens and allies.

    Not done sod all about it as this administration seems to be doing tonight
    Yes, that’s the key point: the Taliban wouldn’t have tried it on with Trump. They know Biden is weak, hence their actions
  • HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    True but Xi, Putin, the Taliban etc were still uncertain about what Trump would do.

    None of them fear Biden and Harris at all and they will do entirely what they want for the next 4 years.

    The US urgently needs a non Trumpite Republican or non woke Democrat as President
    The problem with Biden is not that he's woke.

    The problem is that he's practically asleep and napping.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,614

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    True but Xi, Putin, the Taliban etc were still uncertain about what Trump would do.

    None of them fear Biden and Harris at all and they will do entirely what they want for the next 4 years.

    The US urgently needs a non Trumpite Republican or non woke Democrat as President
    The problem with Biden is not that he's woke.

    The problem is that he's practically asleep and napping.
    Yes and the very woke Harris therefore runs much of the show already anyway now
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
    LOL. Pelosi, Clinton et al spent 4 years claiming Trump was an agent of the Russians and an illegitimate President but that’s not “undermining democracy”.

    You’re smart in many ways Philip buy some times you truly are as thick as pig sh1t.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,518
    MrEd said:



    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.

    Who knows? He behaved as though it was true, which I'm sure was good enough for Putin.

    You're very cocky about Biden's supposed failings, to the point of perhaps feigned incomprehension that anyone would still think he's better than Trump. For many of us, of course he's better. He's not a danger to democracy, an issue that completely dwarfs Afghanistan as a long-term concern for Americans.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
    LOL. Pelosi, Clinton et al spent 4 years claiming Trump was an agent of the Russians and an illegitimate President but that’s not “undermining democracy”.

    You’re smart in many ways Philip buy some times you truly are as thick as pig sh1t.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,233
    Andy_JS said:

    How did we get into "nation building" in Afghanistan in the first place? No-one ever voted for such a policy, and wouldn't have had much support.

    There's a certain sort of person who thinks if we can't nation-build we should just have their nation in ours instead.

    It's quite odd.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
    Now I know you recoil at anything Leon points out. But its quite hard to see how sacking Fauci would be a bad thing. Personally I’d have him under Federal investigation.
  • tlg86 said:

    I think Queen are overrated and very much overplayed on the radio.

    She's only on at 3pm on Xmas day.
    He means the pop group called Queen not Her Majesty
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,379
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Just watched Highlander for the first time.

    Very cheesy film but worth it for the Sean Connery cameo, and the Queen soundtrack - which is superb.

    Did they ever write a bad song?

    Yes.

    Every great songwriter has written lots of poor material.
    Dylan?
    Dylan is a tricky one. I am so addicted to Blood on the Tracks that I’ve a very sketchy understanding of the rest of his career, especially the post 70s stuff.

    I can’t point out a bad song, but surely there must be one or two.
    My favourite album (not just Dylan album) of all time. I have to admit I kind of lose track of what he did after that.
    You are really missing out then. There hasn't been as good an album since. Possibly Time Out of Mind comes closest. But all of them have a gem or two on them, even the worst.
    Every Grain of Sand, Blind Willie Mc Tell, Isis, Mississippi, Not Dark Yet, Workingman's Blues amongst many others are as good as anything on Blood on the Tracks.
    Except for Tangled Up in Blue and Shelter from the Storm of course.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    “Disgraceful voter reforms”. What, you mean people have to show ID? Oh my God, how terrible! In a country where 90pc+ have a driving licence.

    Not sure if you have been listening Philip but do you know about HR1, or the Democrats threatening to pack the Supreme Court or that for 4 years Democrats claimed Trump was an illegitimate President as he was a stooge of Putin?

    Now that is some crazy sh1t.

    There's much worse than just requiring ID that is being done - but even requiring ID is a disgrace in a country where getting ID is a nightmare due to their notoriously incompetent and badly ran DMV - an institution so notoriously appalling that Marge's sisters in the Simpsons are the face of it. Getting ID is made very difficult.

    As for HR1 it is long-overdue and much-required yes. I hope it gets through.

    Packing the court is something I would completely support the Democrats doing after the way the GOP abused processes to pack the court themselves.

    As for raising concerns about Trump being a stooge of Putin - that's an entirely legitimate concern. Just as Biden being an atrocious old fool is an entirely legitimate concern.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    In Germany if the Union are largest party it would likely still be a Union and SPD coalition with the Greens or FDP added on.

    In Canada, Liberal leakage to the 3rd placed NDP would benefit the 2nd placed Conservatives most under Canadian FPTP of course given the NDP are still 6% behind the Conservatives but the Conservatives now only 2% behind the Liberals.

    It looks like Trudeau will scrape home as largest party but fail to get the majority he wanted

    We've discussed Germany at length and I don't disagree but the gap between the Union and SPD has closed and is closing. It's not inconceivable the SPD could top the poll for the first time since 2002.

    As for Canada, there's a lot going on under the figures I think. There would be a swing from Conservative to NDP as well on these numbers. The NDP were 18 points behind the Conservatives in 2019 - Counsel has the gap at seven so that's a 5.5% swing which is not inconsiderable.

    The question is how the votes will shape up in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia. There's no point the Conservatives piling up votes in Alberta and Saskatchewan if they miss marginals in those other three provinces.
    Canadian Conservatives are weird. They manage to be rather wet and Trumpy at the same time.

    Meanwhile, you have a Woke idiot leading a Wokey centre-Left Blairite party, and then a radical Left Corbynite style party.

    Not exactly an inspiring choice.
    Who exactly are the radical Left Corbynites in Canada?
    And Trudeau resembles Cameron rather than Blair to me.
    God, no, he's not Cameron. Not in the slightest. This is a guy who corrects people saying "mankind" to "peoplekind" and says stuff like "shecession". He's an embarrassing Woke millennial twat.

    More like a far younger Nick Clegg but with the politics of Chukka Umunna.
    He puts a smiley, shiny face on the economic status quo. Which sometimes takes on a darker hue.
    He's pure cringe.

    https://youtu.be/y0YKsEtw1AY
    Exiled to ConHome for a fortnight for using cringe as an adjective, in the manner of a frappaccino-supping zoomer.
  • MrEd said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
    LOL. Pelosi, Clinton et al spent 4 years claiming Trump was an agent of the Russians and an illegitimate President but that’s not “undermining democracy”.

    You’re smart in many ways Philip buy some times you truly are as thick as pig sh1t.
    No its not. Trump being too close to the Russians was a problem and pointing that out isn't undermining democracy any more than pointing out that Corbyn was too close to antisemites and the IRA undermined democracy.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,332
    edited August 2021
    DavidL said:

    Yokes said:

    Yokes said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewDesiderio/status/1428796629872746501

    NEW: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in a briefing call with House lawmakers just now said Americans have been beaten by the Taliban in Kabul, according to multiple people on the call. Austin called it “unacceptable.”

    Confirms what i posted earlier.

    There is a story US troop went outside the airport on a extraction operation but no confirmation on that.
    Update, no sign they did.

    US contractors have apparently been working with the British on extraction operations. Would make sense. Its part of their job to manage security for clients on the ground so they would have a good picture including of some UK types they are there advise on security/protect.
    If the Brits, the French, the French for god's sake and the Germans persist in extraction operations the American forces at the Airport will be utterly humiliated and eventually Biden will have to follow track but right now his Presidency is very much on the line.
    We dont know the how yet so its hard to really say. Ultimately, though, the US has enough military power in place right now to roll into town and secure at least some of the areas that tend to be where the foreigners congregate. The excuse may be that it needs 6000 troops at the airport alone to secure it but I dont buy that. Thus either they fear the reaction and/or are under orders.

    As a poster points out below, the Taliban really arent that strong in Kabul. Numbers could be in the low to mid thousands in the city. They didnt consider the place secure enough to bring some of their leaders to town and notably have been shipping in units from some of their hotbeds over the last 48 hours.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:



    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.

    Who knows? He behaved as though it was true, which I'm sure was good enough for Putin.

    You're very cocky about Biden's supposed failings, to the point of perhaps feigned incomprehension that anyone would still think he's better than Trump. For many of us, of course he's better. He's not a danger to democracy, an issue that completely dwarfs Afghanistan as a long-term concern for Americans.
    I’d argue Nick you’re quite cocky that Biden is the better President even though the evidence so far is the opposite - inflation, failure in Afghanistan etc. You seem to take the view that, as a politician, you know best. Not sure that’s correct.

    FWIW, I think Trump was an idiot and, as I said at the time, I was against what he was doing. But (1) I’d argue the Democrats are putting forwards some very anti democratic measures themselves (to reiterate - HR1, packing the Supreme Court etc) and (2) America is the leader of the Free World. What Biden has done has heightened the risk of serious conflict by showing America is weak
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
    LOL. Pelosi, Clinton et al spent 4 years claiming Trump was an agent of the Russians and an illegitimate President but that’s not “undermining democracy”.

    You’re smart in many ways Philip buy some times you truly are as thick as pig sh1t.
    No its not. Trump being too close to the Russians was a problem and pointing that out isn't undermining democracy any more than pointing out that Corbyn was too close to antisemites and the IRA undermined democracy.
    Jesus. Do you really believe the Russians controlled Trump? Do you think the US intelligence services would have allowed Trump to be US President if that were so?
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:



    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.

    Who knows? He behaved as though it was true, which I'm sure was good enough for Putin.

    You're very cocky about Biden's supposed failings, to the point of perhaps feigned incomprehension that anyone would still think he's better than Trump. For many of us, of course he's better. He's not a danger to democracy, an issue that completely dwarfs Afghanistan as a long-term concern for Americans.
    I’d argue Nick you’re quite cocky that Biden is the better President even though the evidence so far is the opposite - inflation, failure in Afghanistan etc. You seem to take the view that, as a politician, you know best. Not sure that’s correct.

    FWIW, I think Trump was an idiot and, as I said at the time, I was against what he was doing. But (1) I’d argue the Democrats are putting forwards some very anti democratic measures themselves (to reiterate - HR1, packing the Supreme Court etc) and (2) America is the leader of the Free World. What Biden has done has heightened the risk of serious conflict by showing America is weak
    What's your issue with HR1? Besides the fact its an attempt to ensure people can vote and thus counteracts voter suppression.

    Being able to vote is good, voter suppression is bad.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    moonshine said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    Had we awoken on the morning after the election to Trump having taken the states he needed, what do you think he would have done in the subsequent 9 months that would have been more damaging to the cause of Western democracy than the last week?

    Don’t get me wrong, the man’s a knobhead. But at least the foreign autocrats were wary of him.
    Trump and the GOP spent 4 years undermining democratic norms and replacing professional people at institutions with those who would subvert the rule of law. I think he would have done more of that if he'd been in power the last 9 months - he'd already threatened to sack Fauci and replace him with a lackey and the GOP are trying to undermine democracy in voting reform bills in Texas etc

    Foreign leaders are also wary of Putin, Xi and Jong-Un . . . doesn't mean I want a leader like that as President of the USA.

    Having a leader that respects democracy and fights to win but accepts when they lose is a key part of democracy. I have no fear that if Biden loses the election that he won't relinquish control.
    LOL. Pelosi, Clinton et al spent 4 years claiming Trump was an agent of the Russians and an illegitimate President but that’s not “undermining democracy”.

    You’re smart in many ways Philip buy some times you truly are as thick as pig sh1t.
    No its not. Trump being too close to the Russians was a problem and pointing that out isn't undermining democracy any more than pointing out that Corbyn was too close to antisemites and the IRA undermined democracy.
    Jesus. Do you really believe the Russians controlled Trump? Do you think the US intelligence services would have allowed Trump to be US President if that were so?
    I don't think the Russians controlled Trump.

    I do think the Russians could manipulate Trump.
    I do think the Russians helped Trump win in 2016.
    I do think the Russians wanted Trump in charge.

    Very much like Corbyn for all of those. As Cyclefree, myself and others have pointed out there are remarkable similarities between Corbyn and Trump.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1428805059870068740
    https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1428804909449846797

    Huge story… leaked memo shows Biden promised Boris Johnson and G7 leaders in June that the US would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan that they would keep Kabul safe — then failed to keep that commitment


    NEW: Biden assured key allies in June that US security enablers would remain in place in Afghanistan as NATO troops withdrew, so much so that U.K. thought it could maintain its Kabul embassy

    Is this worse for US-Ally relationships than everything under Trump combined? Horrendous abdication of responsibility.

    He's a useless fucker so he is.
    Sorry David, you wanted Biden, you and your ilk own it
    Yes, I wanted Biden. Proud to say so.

    Because Trump winning a 2nd term would have been either the end of american democracy or a civil war or succession of several states.

    As was proved by his attempts to run a coup and claim he won the election.

    If Trump was running a coup, he did a piss poor imitation of one. My dog could have done better.

    Vote Trump. He's incompetent at fascist coups.

    Compelling.


    As opposed to incompetent at being the leader of the Free World.

    And don’t tell me, you are one of those who truly believe Trump was controlled by Putin and pissed on by Russian hookers, as in some third-rate conspiracy theory movie. F*ck, that is up there with the QAnon conspiracy crap.
    I'd rather someone be incompetent at being the leader of the Free World, than someone being more competent but ending the Free element of Free World.

    Trump threatened to end America's democracy. The GOP are still trying to do so with their disgraceful voting reforms in places like Texas.
    “Disgraceful voter reforms”. What, you mean people have to show ID? Oh my God, how terrible! In a country where 90pc+ have a driving licence.

    Not sure if you have been listening Philip but do you know about HR1, or the Democrats threatening to pack the Supreme Court or that for 4 years Democrats claimed Trump was an illegitimate President as he was a stooge of Putin?

    Now that is some crazy sh1t.

    There's much worse than just requiring ID that is being done - but even requiring ID is a disgrace in a country where getting ID is a nightmare due to their notoriously incompetent and badly ran DMV - an institution so notoriously appalling that Marge's sisters in the Simpsons are the face of it. Getting ID is made very difficult.

    As for HR1 it is long-overdue and much-required yes. I hope it gets through.

    Packing the court is something I would completely support the Democrats doing after the way the GOP abused processes to pack the court themselves.

    As for raising concerns about Trump being a stooge of Putin - that's an entirely legitimate concern. Just as Biden being an atrocious old fool is an entirely legitimate concern.
    God Philip, you’re a bigger threat to democracy than I thought.

    And do you realise how insulting it is to Black Americans to make the assumption that they are too thick to get ID?

    Hell, you probably agreed with Biden when he said Blacks and Hispanics didn’t use computers
This discussion has been closed.