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The “Crisis What Crisis” immersive theatrical experience – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 20 in General
The “Crisis What Crisis” immersive theatrical experience – politicalbetting.com

The above clip is of the then LAB PM, Jim Callaghan arriving back at Heathrow in early 1979 being questioned about the then industrial and political situation where his party no longer had a majority. The months that followed this were later called “The Winter of Discontent”.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569
    Firstest
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,954
    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 20
    37,314 new cases.....114 deaths.

    When the super spreading rugrats go back to the covid incubators, how high will cases go?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 9,983
    edited August 20
    4th Estate.

    Interesting how relatively non-savage the Press are compared with Raab.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 88,969
    edited August 20
    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    Callaghan was overall a decent man, a patriot, tried to run a balanced budget and a relatively sane Labour leader. Brown was a worse PM than he was.

    It was the unions and the Labour left that were the problem as they were with Heath not his holiday in the sun (same applies for Raab, it was Biden and Trump who were responsible for the Afghan situation).

    After Callaghan the Labour Party went far left under Foot and militant and were almost overtaken by the SDP and the 36% Callaghan got in 1979 was not matched or surpassed by another Labour leader until Blair in 1997.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    BBC News - Nvidia's takeover of Arm raises serious concerns, says watchdog
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58284204
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,760
    I went to this a few weeks ago and am going again with different friends in a couple of weeks. Best time I've had all year. It's really a group game for all of the audience with actors managing you all, rather than a show.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,439
    edited August 20
    Interesting fact: Callaghan slightly increased the total Labour vote in 1979 from 11,457,079 to 11,532,218.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_United_Kingdom_general_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1974_United_Kingdom_general_election
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,087
    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
  • eekeek Posts: 14,809
    edited August 20
    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    The National Theatre run "This House" (which is the story of Labour from 1974 to 1979) when they were streaming old plays on Youtube last year. You could probably find it if you hunt a bit.

    I grabbed it and must get round to rewatching it later this year.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,760
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    The National Theatre run "This House" (which is the story of Labour from 1974 to 1979) when they were streaming old plays on Youtube last year. You could probably find it if you hunt a bit.

    I grabbed it and must get round to rewatching it later this year.
    Would second this recommendation. Watched it when it came to Salford pre-pandemic: Loved it.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,209
    OT is it secret cinema for political nerds? The Kobiashi Maru for Star Trek fans?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 43,598

    37,314 new cases.....114 deaths.

    When the super spreading rugrats go back to the covid incubators, how high will cases go?

    Are you on iSAGE now? :smiley:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643

    37,314 new cases.....114 deaths.

    When the super spreading rugrats go back to the covid incubators, how high will cases go?

    Are you on iSAGE now? :smiley:
    Sports sub-committee.....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    edited August 20
    Congrats to British Airways. I completely fucked up my flight, thought I was on a later Athens-LHR job, by the time I reached check-in my actual flight home was already in the air

    Yet they seamlessly switched me to the next flight, 3 hours later, same class, no charge, no hassle

    Pretty impressive
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,760

    OT is it secret cinema for political nerds? The Kobiashi Maru for Star Trek fans?

    Kind of. Think of it as LARPing for politics nerds, with the scenario set on the final day of the Callaghan Government - and the rules do permit you to change history if you can pull it off.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,954
    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    Callaghan was overall a decent man, a patriot, tried to run a balanced budget and a relatively sane Labour leader. Brown was a worse PM than he was.

    It was the unions and the Labour left that were the problem as they were with Heath not his holiday in the sun (same applies for Raab, it was Biden and Trump who were responsible for the Afghan situation).

    Communications were much less developed in the 1970s so it would have been more or a problem back then. The problem wasn't so much the decision itself, as the messaging - working holiday in the Carribean while the country shivered.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    Leon said:

    Congrats to British Airways. I completely fucked up my flight, thought I was on a later Athens-LHR job, by the time I reached check-in my actual flight home was already in the air

    Yet they seamlessly switched me to the next flight, 3 hours later, same class, no charge, no hassle

    Pretty impressive

    If I was you, I would have shrugged and told BA i might stay another week and do same flight in 7 days.....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    edited August 20
    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    edited August 20

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
  • eekeek Posts: 14,809
    Leon said:

    Congrats to British Airways. I completely fucked up my flight, thought I was on a later Athens-LHR job, by the time I reached check-in my actual flight home was already in the air

    Yet they seamlessly switched me to the next flight, 3 hours later, same class, no charge, no hassle

    Pretty impressive

    Your past and future expenditure significant enough that we can swallow a mistake or three.

    My relationship with KLM was very similar..
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,954
    Incidentally, one thing Callaghan and Boris have in common - both hate sacking Cabinet colleages. IIRC Callaghan described it to Barbara Castle as the "worst part of the job".
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    Northern Ireland has recorded the highest number of coronavirus cases in a single day since the pandemic began.

    BBC News - Covid-19: NI records highest number of cases in a single day
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-58278998
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    Given how long JCVI are taking, are we sure they haven't all gone to Greece on holiday as well?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    edited August 20
    Another truly distressing thread. Worth reading the whole thing. A tragedy unfolds

    ‘Kabul airport: The desperation is palpable - children are passed through crowds on to soldiers behind the barbed wire

    The crowd has one purpose, one plea: take our children to safety if you cannot take us.

    Meanwhile, the Taliban use US weapons to disperse another packed crowd’

    https://twitter.com/telegraphworld/status/1428654078666674176?s=21

    Can you imagine being so desperate you hand your baby to a strange soldier, to be saved.

    And note the empty evacuation plane. The ‘inclusive country boys’ aren’t letting anyone through
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,760
    Quincel said:

    I went to this a few weeks ago and am going again with different friends in a couple of weeks. Best time I've had all year. It's really a group game for all of the audience with actors managing you all, rather than a show.

    it does sound really entertaining. if it includes some Supertramp songs then even better.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 88,969
    edited August 20
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting fact: Callaghan slightly increased the total Labour vote in 1979 from 11,457,079 to 11,532,218.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_United_Kingdom_general_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_1974_United_Kingdom_general_election

    Although presumably the number of adults in the UK rose by more during the period.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 88,969
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Jim Callaghan - the classic "in office but not in power" PM, at any rate before John Major and TM.

    Still at least he paved the way for Margaret Thatcher. Although I still remember the candles my parents kept for several years afterwards in case the Winter of Discontent was repeated.

    Callaghan was overall a decent man, a patriot, tried to run a balanced budget and a relatively sane Labour leader. Brown was a worse PM than he was.

    It was the unions and the Labour left that were the problem as they were with Heath not his holiday in the sun (same applies for Raab, it was Biden and Trump who were responsible for the Afghan situation).

    Communications were much less developed in the 1970s so it would have been more or a problem back then. The problem wasn't so much the decision itself, as the messaging - working holiday in the Carribean while the country shivered.
    I suppose so.

    Even holidays to the Med were rarer then for ordinary folk and the Caribbean even now is only really a winter holiday option for the rich so I suppose it was a PR gaffe
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Why would a serious person go into politics?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,161
    Living in Cardiff in the 1980s and being involved with the Labour Party and Welsh Labour figures I heard a few stories about Jim's rise from the Merchant Navy (I believe) to Prime Minister and names who helped him along the way.

    Those who were not keen, disliked his connections with Julian Hodge, and I can understand why. I was also told a story (true or otherwise, I do not know) that Jim had some interest in land in Llantrissant that became the Royal Mint.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    I believe there is a reasonable chance the West will have to go back in to Afghanistan - or do air strikes, such is the fearful chaos and terror we have stupidly unleashed

    ‘Nothing to see here, just one of #America's most-wanted terrorists, Khalil Haqqani, on the streets of #Kabul today.

    There's a $5 million bounty on his head -- hopefully we're keeping an eye on him "over the horizon."’

    https://twitter.com/charles_lister/status/1428736110155505671?s=21
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Congrats to British Airways. I completely fucked up my flight, thought I was on a later Athens-LHR job, by the time I reached check-in my actual flight home was already in the air

    Yet they seamlessly switched me to the next flight, 3 hours later, same class, no charge, no hassle

    Pretty impressive

    Remarkably generous considering you are not even a travel writer but a lowly flint napper.
    But I didn’t even mention my dildos!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Why would a serious person go into politics?
    Pass. But they used to.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 20
    Leon said:

    I believe there is a reasonable chance the West will have to go back in to Afghanistan - or do air strikes, such is the fearful chaos and terror we have stupidly unleashed

    ‘Nothing to see here, just one of #America's most-wanted terrorists, Khalil Haqqani, on the streets of #Kabul today.

    There's a $5 million bounty on his head -- hopefully we're keeping an eye on him "over the horizon."’

    https://twitter.com/charles_lister/status/1428736110155505671?s=21

    Nice gear his bodyguards have....i presume American stash.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    Some of the most harrowing images I have ever seen. Ever. Nothing gory, no blood, just… my god.

    We all need to watch them. Even if joe Biden says ‘well who cares that was 3 hours ago! 4!’

    ‘(warning: distressing) Heartbreaking footage shows the desperation at Kabul airport in the days following the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan’s capital city.’


    https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1428741959284318208?s=21
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Congrats to British Airways. I completely fucked up my flight, thought I was on a later Athens-LHR job, by the time I reached check-in my actual flight home was already in the air

    Yet they seamlessly switched me to the next flight, 3 hours later, same class, no charge, no hassle

    Pretty impressive

    Remarkably generous considering you are not even a travel writer but a lowly flint napper.
    Gives getting a plug in for BA an entirely different meaning.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,111
    Surely the best outcome for this immersive theatrical experience is to get Maggie in as quickly as possible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    UK cases by specimen date

    This will be the last update for a week or so - I'm going on holiday

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    UK R

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427

    Leon said:

    I believe there is a reasonable chance the West will have to go back in to Afghanistan - or do air strikes, such is the fearful chaos and terror we have stupidly unleashed

    ‘Nothing to see here, just one of #America's most-wanted terrorists, Khalil Haqqani, on the streets of #Kabul today.

    There's a $5 million bounty on his head -- hopefully we're keeping an eye on him "over the horizon."’

    https://twitter.com/charles_lister/status/1428736110155505671?s=21

    Nice gear his bodyguards have....i presume American stash.
    Joe Biden has done the stupidest thing in history. Out-stupiding Donald Trump. An immense tragedy
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    UK case summary

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    They had another player really badly effected, couldn't even walk the dog weeks after, let alone train, without totally running out of energy. I can't remember who it was.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    Is Mike going to take this crib sheet along, and propose a government of national unity to bring the legislation forward by a year ?

    Employment Act 1980
    • Encouraged secret ballots both on proposed industrial action and in electing union officials by making public funds available [sections 1-2]. This was superseded by the Trade Union Act 1984 and the Trade Union and Employment Rights Act 1993 which required secret ballots and withdrew public funding.
    • Limited the closed shop by protecting from dismissal workers who objected to union membership on grounds of conscience or other deeply held personal conviction [section 7]. Superseded by the Employment Act 1988 and the Employment Act 1990 which effectively outlawed closed shops.
    • Required all new closed shop agreements to be approved by at least 80% of those eligible to vote in a secret ballot [section 7(3)]. Superseded by the Employment Act 1988 and the Employment Act 1990 which effectively outlawed closed shops altogether.
    • Restricted lawful picketing to those attending at or near their own place of work [section 16]. A Code of Practice issued under the Act recommended that six pickets should be the normal limit.
    • Removed immunity from secondary action (including blacking) unless it was designed to put direct pressure on the employer in dispute by interfering with his business with his suppliers or customers [section 17].
    • Repealed the provisions of the Employment Protection Act 1975 which enabled independent trade unions to secure recognition for the purposes of collective bargaining. The Employment Relations Act 1999 [section 1 and Schedule 1] introduced a new statutory trade union recognition procedure which differs in many respects from that which operated under the 1975 Act. The new procedures came into force on 6 June 2000.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    UK hospitals

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    UK R

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    Age related data

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 20
    Neil Warnock admitted “the majority” of his Middlesbrough squad had declined invitations to be injected.

    An NFL player has had covid twice and still won't get vaccinated.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,723
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    Age related data scaled to 100K

    image
    image
    image
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,454
    If I remember correctly, the LibDems lost all the support money between 2010 and 2015 through being in coalition. Then they lost it after 2015 anyway.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    UK deaths

    image
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,954
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Better than a society where "profit" is a dirty word and "capitalist" a term of abuse. Imo she should have gone further to promote an enterprise culture.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
    Its far worse now with social media, camera phones etc. You can never let your guard down.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
    Its far worse now with social media, camera phones etc. You can never let your guard down.
    Yes, especially as I often say sarcastic things that could be easily misinterpreted.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    St Maximim was out for months last season with Covid too. Amazing they have been so reluctant really
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,557
    Nigelb said:

    Is Mike going to take this crib sheet along, and propose a government of national unity to bring the legislation forward by a year ?

    Employment Act 1980
    • Encouraged secret ballots both on proposed industrial action and in electing union officials by making public funds available [sections 1-2]. This was superseded by the Trade Union Act 1984 and the Trade Union and Employment Rights Act 1993 which required secret ballots and withdrew public funding.
    • Limited the closed shop by protecting from dismissal workers who objected to union membership on grounds of conscience or other deeply held personal conviction [section 7]. Superseded by the Employment Act 1988 and the Employment Act 1990 which effectively outlawed closed shops.
    • Required all new closed shop agreements to be approved by at least 80% of those eligible to vote in a secret ballot [section 7(3)]. Superseded by the Employment Act 1988 and the Employment Act 1990 which effectively outlawed closed shops altogether.
    • Restricted lawful picketing to those attending at or near their own place of work [section 16]. A Code of Practice issued under the Act recommended that six pickets should be the normal limit.
    • Removed immunity from secondary action (including blacking) unless it was designed to put direct pressure on the employer in dispute by interfering with his business with his suppliers or customers [section 17].
    • Repealed the provisions of the Employment Protection Act 1975 which enabled independent trade unions to secure recognition for the purposes of collective bargaining. The Employment Relations Act 1999 [section 1 and Schedule 1] introduced a new statutory trade union recognition procedure which differs in many respects from that which operated under the 1975 Act. The new procedures came into force on 6 June 2000.

    I qualified in 2000. Back in the 70s and 80s being an employment lawyer, to the extent the discipline existed, generally involved dealing with union issues and collective disputes. I've not had an instruction on a single one since 2001.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 18,702
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
    He lost 12.5Kg in 5 nights?!! Is that just incredible levels of dehydration? Or what?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    Seems like EU drivers are not yet coming back...per analysis of ONS labour market figures for @LogisticsUKNews 14,000 left during #COVID19 & #Brexit and only 600 have come back....they want 10,000 short term visas from govt while they do more UK recruiting/training https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1428744226666393604/photo/1
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    edited August 20
    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
    Lacazette of Arsenal is out for the second week running with Covid.

    My Dad's mate works for the Premier League's Covid dept. He says severe reactions to the jab are commonplace in young, fit men.

    I got the rough end of that deal - severe reaction without the youth and fitness!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,915
    edited August 20
    Interesting in the Wiltshire PCC re-run. The Independent who was 4th last time behind LD then Labour(albeit it was close between all three) is second and in the run off against the Tory.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    Leon said:

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    No Sean, it's because he's shit. Because he thought his tan was more important then Afghan lives. The fact he is a Brexiteer is coincident.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,076
    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    Just think what a difference that phone call would have made.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,954
    Incidentally, talking of the Winter of Discontent, this Secret History is one of the best historical documentaries I've ever seen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYWsUXQrLYw&t=591s

    Perhaps the most remarkable thing for me was the division between the Union figure interviewed and the Callaghan government spokesman: the former tried to put a positive spin on the consequences of their actions, saying it was better to have Union laws from a Conservative government than a Labour one, and the latter said essentially that the Trades Unions had been totally irresponsible, and got Margaret Thatcher, "and boy did they deserve it".
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    edited August 20
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
    I used to daydream, when I was a prospective Kipper candidate, of being interviewed on the Daily Politics by Jo Coburn and Andrew Neill, as they read out posts about Enoch Powell from their ipads...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127
    kle4 said:

    Interesting in the Wiltshire PCC re-run. The Independent who was 4th last time behind LD then Labour(albeit it was close between all three) is second and in the run off against the Tory.

    Tory wins

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wiltscouncil/status/1428743738042556421

    Independents do much better in low turnout elections.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    Astoundingly brave reporting by CNN’s Clarissa Ward in Kabul


    WATCH: Taliban Fighters Charge at CNN’s Clarissa Ward, Threaten to Strike Her Team Outside Kabul Airport mediaite.com/tv/watch-talib… #SmartNews

    https://twitter.com/osherryh/status/1428744889676697604?s=21
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    No flights have left the Kabul airport in the last eight hours, per @clarissaward, who is at the airport.
    https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1428747105376538626
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,723
    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
    Lacazette of Arsenal is out for the second week running with Covid.

    My Dad's mate works for the Premier League's Covid dept. He says severe reactions to the jab are commonplace in young, fit men.

    I got the rough end of that deal - severe reaction without the youth and fitness!
    Is he out from the jab or from Covid? My understanding was NUFC had 2 really bad cases from the virus.
    However, if players are missing games from vaccination you can easily see the risk/reward calculation being different for players and clubs.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    Scott_xP said:

    Seems like EU drivers are not yet coming back...per analysis of ONS labour market figures for @LogisticsUKNews 14,000 left during #COVID19 & #Brexit and only 600 have come back....they want 10,000 short term visas from govt while they do more UK recruiting/training https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1428744226666393604/photo/1

    ...and how many drivers short are the haulage industry?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,915
    edited August 20
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    Interesting in the Wiltshire PCC re-run. The Independent who was 4th last time behind LD then Labour(albeit it was close between all three) is second and in the run off against the Tory.

    Tory wins

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wiltscouncil/status/1428743738042556421

    Independents do much better in low turnout elections.

    Oh the result was never really in doubt, not in Wiltshire, but embarrassing for the other two was the interesting bit, given it was the same Indy. Second prefs benefit of around 4k was not enough to swing the result.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
    Lacazette of Arsenal is out for the second week running with Covid.

    My Dad's mate works for the Premier League's Covid dept. He says severe reactions to the jab are commonplace in young, fit men.

    I got the rough end of that deal - severe reaction without the youth and fitness!
    Is he out from the jab or from Covid? My understanding was NUFC had 2 really bad cases from the virus.
    However, if players are missing games from vaccination you can easily see the risk/reward calculation being different for players and clubs.
    Sorry, Lacazette is out with the virus. He and Aubameyang, as well as Willian and the reserve GK tested positive last week - apparently the game at Brentford almost got called off... "almost" unfortunately!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569
    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    https://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-ministers-accused-of-ignoring-warning-from-influential-house-of-lords-committee-12385551

    It's about much more than phone calls. Sheer murderous laziness from Johnson and his sidekick.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,158

    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    Just think what a difference that phone call would have made.
    Does Conservative CO pay you to be "PB Apologist in Chief" for them, or does looking like the most unquestioningly loyal/brainwashed (delete as you see fit) Conservative give you pleasure?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    Spain rescue mission brings back 38 people and Germany flies 78 people back from Kabul per last flight. Pace has slowed significantly.
    https://twitter.com/mariatad/status/1428748356680048645
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,161

    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    Just think what a difference that phone call would have made.
    Does Conservative CO pay you to be "PB Apologist in Chief" for them, or does looking like the most unquestioningly loyal/brainwashed (delete as you see fit) Conservative give you pleasure?
    Stiff competition for that title!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 14,723
    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
    Lacazette of Arsenal is out for the second week running with Covid.

    My Dad's mate works for the Premier League's Covid dept. He says severe reactions to the jab are commonplace in young, fit men.

    I got the rough end of that deal - severe reaction without the youth and fitness!
    Is he out from the jab or from Covid? My understanding was NUFC had 2 really bad cases from the virus.
    However, if players are missing games from vaccination you can easily see the risk/reward calculation being different for players and clubs.
    Sorry, Lacazette is out with the virus. He and Aubameyang, as well as Willian and the reserve GK tested positive last week - apparently the game at Brentford almost got called off... "almost" unfortunately!
    What a strange disease it is. A small minority of young, superfit people laid low for weeks on end. Others, in poor health totally asymptomatic.
    Do we have any explanation, or even speculation, as of yet?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 44,970

    UK cases by specimen date

    This will be the last update for a week or so - I'm going on holiday

    image

    Have a wonderful holiday and thanks for all your efforts
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,158
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I believe there is a reasonable chance the West will have to go back in to Afghanistan - or do air strikes, such is the fearful chaos and terror we have stupidly unleashed

    ‘Nothing to see here, just one of #America's most-wanted terrorists, Khalil Haqqani, on the streets of #Kabul today.

    There's a $5 million bounty on his head -- hopefully we're keeping an eye on him "over the horizon."’

    https://twitter.com/charles_lister/status/1428736110155505671?s=21

    Nice gear his bodyguards have....i presume American stash.
    Joe Biden has done the stupidest thing in history. Out-stupiding Donald Trump. An immense tragedy
    Indeed, if not THE most stupid it certainly is up there. Out-stupiding Donald Trump as you put it is a quite remarkable achievement that most would not wish to have on their CV.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
    I used to daydream, when I was a prospective Kipper candidate, of being interviewed on the Daily Politics by Jo Coburn and Andrew Neill, as they read out posts about Enoch Powell from their ipads...
    Man, that's some kinky shit.

    My fantasies all involve buxom women, but each to their own.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226

    dixiedean said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/20/steve-bruce-admits-a-lot-of-newcastle-players-have-not-been-vaccinated-covid

    Given the stark reality that Darlow lost two stone during the course of five nights in hospital earlier this summer and is still not fit enough to return to the first team squad, the high number of vaccine refuseniks at St James’ Park may seem surprising.

    Why are NUFC the only PL team to have had seriously ill players?
    Or are they the only ones admitting it?
    He lost 12.5Kg in 5 nights?!! Is that just incredible levels of dehydration? Or what?
    That's a very interesting question - does Dr @Foxy have an answer ?

    There's some research which demonstrates that the early innate immune response to infection imposes a higher metabolic burden - for example this:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.614697/full

    Covid also screws with the immune response in multiple ways, so I suspect that has something to do with it, too.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
    Its far worse now with social media, camera phones etc. You can never let your guard down.
    Yes, especially as I often say sarcastic things that could be easily misinterpreted.
    You ?
    Surely not.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,760
    Scott_xP said:

    No flights have left the Kabul airport in the last eight hours, per @clarissaward, who is at the airport.
    https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1428747105376538626

    a USAF globemaster appears to have left a few minutes ago. an RAF one left about 10am our time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427
    Another intense thread. By Clarissa ward of CNN. She’s now at the airport

    Ward: "It's not that often that you will find a soldier just start weeping in the middle of a conversation with you in the at 11:00 in the morning, but...that is the level of horror that they're witnessing and I think for a lot of them, that is the level of guilt they're feeling"

    https://twitter.com/curtishouck/status/1428740192618401795?s=21
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,158

    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    Just think what a difference that phone call would have made.
    Does Conservative CO pay you to be "PB Apologist in Chief" for them, or does looking like the most unquestioningly loyal/brainwashed (delete as you see fit) Conservative give you pleasure?
    Stiff competition for that title!
    There is definitely a point at which political tribalism moves beyond parody.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,915

    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    Just think what a difference that phone call would have made.
    Does Conservative CO pay you to be "PB Apologist in Chief" for them, or does looking like the most unquestioningly loyal/brainwashed (delete as you see fit) Conservative give you pleasure?
    Stiff competition for that title!
    I consider myself more of a sleeper agent.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    ...
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The weird thing with Jim Callaghan is that I remember him doing an interview about the time of Black Wednesday when he must have been a considerable age. He was extremely good on the technicalities as you expect of a former Chancellor and PM. It revised my opinion of him somewhat in a much more positive manner. At the time (1979) he seemed quite hapless against the incredibly aggressive early Thatcher.

    I must say that the play idea sounds really innovative but those who lived through it must surely have an advantage!

    Interesting perspective. In Matthew Parris's memoirs he mentions how he would go to PMQs when Maggie was LOTO, willing her to do well, but Sunny Jim always just swatted her away.
    The Wilson cabinet had considerable brain power in it. Wilson himself had a double first but there was also Jenkins, Crossland, Healey, Mason, Shore, Benn, Williams and others. The fact that Callaghan won the leadership against such redoubtable competition always suggests there was a bit more too him than was often credited. When you look at that list (and indeed others in that cabinet) and compare it with the Shadow Cabinet now it almost makes you weep. Its not a party political point; I would say exactly the same about the current cabinet from the PM down and Thatcher's first cabinet.

    When did serious people stop going into politics?
    Of course in the 19th and first half of the 20th century UK politicians had an Empire to run and pre Thatcher much of the economy was still state run so UK politicians still had significant power.

    Post Empire we were no longer a superpower and post Thatcher politicians had less power over the economy and there was more money to be made in the private sector amongst the brightest and best.

    That was probably a good thing for making us a more dynamic economy but not for attracting the best talent to Westminster though there are still a few top quality MPs about like Tugendhat
    Good points but I also fear one of the consequences of Thatcherism was an idealisation of private activity and something of a downgrading of the concept of public service.
    Actually, I don't think it's that at all.

    A couple of years ago, I sold my business. At this point, I'm looking around for something to do. I've always been very interested in politics. Getting elected would probably be far from impossible.

    But it doesn't seem like it would be that much fun... I *might* have managed junior ministerial status by the time I reached fifty. Or I could be a PPS for a couple of years.

    And then I'm required to memorise talking points and parrot them in interviews, based on what works in focus groups.

    Finally, there's the press watching over you, waiting for a "gaffe", and the intrusion (particularly if I did climb the greasy pole) into my family's life.

    Doesn't seem that idyllic, really.
    I used to daydream, when I was a prospective Kipper candidate, of being interviewed on the Daily Politics by Jo Coburn and Andrew Neill, as they read out posts about Enoch Powell from their ipads...
    Man, that's some kinky shit.

    My fantasies all involve buxom women, but each to their own.
    That's my real life!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,158
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    Just think what a difference that phone call would have made.
    Does Conservative CO pay you to be "PB Apologist in Chief" for them, or does looking like the most unquestioningly loyal/brainwashed (delete as you see fit) Conservative give you pleasure?
    Stiff competition for that title!
    I consider myself more of a sleeper agent.
    Ah, but for which side?!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    Interesting in the Wiltshire PCC re-run. The Independent who was 4th last time behind LD then Labour(albeit it was close between all three) is second and in the run off against the Tory.

    Tory wins

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wiltscouncil/status/1428743738042556421

    Independents do much better in low turnout elections.

    Oh the result was never really in doubt, not in Wiltshire, but embarrassing for the other two was the interesting bit, given it was the same Indy. Second prefs benefit of around 4k was not enough to swing the result.
    When these elections were first held in November 2012, independents did really well because turnout was pitiful. When they were held at the same time as the locals the independents stood still as the regular party voters turned out.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832

    a USAF globemaster appears to have left a few minutes ago. an RAF one left about 10am our time.

    Evacuation flights out of Kabul now paused https://twitter.com/katesullivandc/status/1428747784283467779
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,427

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I believe there is a reasonable chance the West will have to go back in to Afghanistan - or do air strikes, such is the fearful chaos and terror we have stupidly unleashed

    ‘Nothing to see here, just one of #America's most-wanted terrorists, Khalil Haqqani, on the streets of #Kabul today.

    There's a $5 million bounty on his head -- hopefully we're keeping an eye on him "over the horizon."’

    https://twitter.com/charles_lister/status/1428736110155505671?s=21

    Nice gear his bodyguards have....i presume American stash.
    Joe Biden has done the stupidest thing in history. Out-stupiding Donald Trump. An immense tragedy
    Indeed, if not THE most stupid it certainly is up there. Out-stupiding Donald Trump as you put it is a quite remarkable achievement that most would not wish to have on their CV.
    Biden should resign for this. It is that bad. He won’t. But he should

    Trump should be violently erased from written history like the mad pharaoh Akhenaten

    I’ve never seen an unforced calamity like the Afghanistan withdrawal. Iraq was enormous and horrific but it evolved over years. This is days. Hideous intense days
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 68,915
    edited August 20
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    Interesting in the Wiltshire PCC re-run. The Independent who was 4th last time behind LD then Labour(albeit it was close between all three) is second and in the run off against the Tory.

    Tory wins

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wiltscouncil/status/1428743738042556421

    Independents do much better in low turnout elections.

    Oh the result was never really in doubt, not in Wiltshire, but embarrassing for the other two was the interesting bit, given it was the same Indy. Second prefs benefit of around 4k was not enough to swing the result.
    When these elections were first held in November 2012, independents did really well because turnout was pitiful. When they were held at the same time as the locals the independents stood still as the regular party voters turned out.
    Good point. Not sure if there are any Indy PCCs left (some had managed 2 terms at least) as of 2021.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 43,598
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Really really bad things are happening in Kabul now

    ‘A report written by the Norwegian Center for Global Analyses said militants were also screening people on the way to Kabul airport.

    “They are targeting the families of those who refuse to give themselves up, and prosecuting and punishing their families ‘according to sharia law’,” said Christian Nellemann, the group’s executive director.

    “We expect both individuals previously working with Nato/US forces and their allies, along with their family members, to be exposed to torture and executions.”’


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/20/afghanistan-reports-of-torture-and-killing-contradict-taliban-promises?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Meanwhile the press and Scott P blather on about Dominic Raab’s phone call from Cyprus because he was a Brexiteer

    It is quite pathetic

    https://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-ministers-accused-of-ignoring-warning-from-influential-house-of-lords-committee-12385551

    It's about much more than phone calls. Sheer murderous laziness from Johnson and his sidekick.
    You have to wonder how much more laziness and incompetence the Tory membership and backbenchers are going to put up with. It's just one Cabinet shambles after another.

    Coming next: back to school mess.
This discussion has been closed.