@HYUFD will be along in a minute to tell us that actually President Trump is blameless and isn't responsible actually nor has he ever made any such claim.
Read my post below, as I have said Romney would be better than Biden and Trump, they are both wrong on the withdrawal, though I doubt even Trump would have so weakly surrendered to the Taliban as Biden has, certainly at least not without some shock and awe bombing etc
How has Biden surrendered to the Taliban...
US troops left Afghanistan a month or so ago - this is merely the obvious result of that departure.
He surrendered by the very act of withdrawal, as I have long said US and UK forces should have stayed there indefinitely to keep the Taliban and Al Qaeda out
The brutal truth is that we've achieved sweet FA despite twenty years of trying.
And in terms of worldwide terrorism, Afghanistan has no special resources that controlling helps launch terrorist attacks. The resource is the extremists themselves - many new ones having been generated by the occupation and every accidental civilian death. They are no more dangerous now than they were sitting in Pakistan. All we have done is give them legitimacy in the eyes of many by allowing them to champion opposition to western imperialism.
We prevented 9/11 2 for 20 years.
That is now significantly more likely if Afghanistan becomes a haven for terrorists again. US special forces were sent to Pakistan too to kill Bin Laden.
Given the worst terrorist attack in western history happened BEFORE the Afghan and Iraq invasions the legitimacy argument is rubbish, jihadis were already wanting to attack the west beforehand.
We have to be ready to take them on wherever they are, just Biden has given up the fight
This is just nonsense.
There haven’t been any ‘major’ overseas terrorist attacks for years because they no longer have the capability to organise them. Western intelliegence and security is better and the prospect of one overarching organisation with a degree of command and control has been replaced by factionalism and infighting as Al Queda fell apart. The bigger threat is ISIS and they are the result of an even more foolish western intervention.
That the Taliban are all able to stroll back into Afghanistan is proof that they are hardly in need of a “haven”. Many are young and will have been recruited as a counter-reaction to western occupation and perceived or actual injustice.
Departure in ignominy was inevitable from the moment we went in there, just as it was for the Russians and British in history. The departure could perhaps have been handled more cleverly (although a quick and relatively peaceful takeover is much preferable to a long and bloody civil war ending with the same outcome), but the biggest mistake appears to be the Americans - with us as their useful idiots - kidding themselves that many Afghans were really motivated to fight the Taliban once western troops had gone away. The waste of time and money has been colossal.
ISIS have largely collapsed and been driven out of Iraq and Syria.
Now the Taliban are back in control in Afghanistan there is nothing to stop AQ and other jihadi groups who were there before from returning and new ones on top. Afghanistan will be the global centre of terror training camps against the West again.
The only reason we are departing in ignominy is the failed, weak surrender of Biden and Harris, under Bush and indeed Obama Afghanistan was secure and the Taliban forced back to their heartlands.
Whether the Afghans would be motivated to fight the Taliban is irrelevant, we should never have taken the risk and kept troops there indefinitely if needed as sensible leaders like McCain wanted
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
Catholic priests were so much better?
If you don't mind me saying so that is a silly comment.
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
Afghanistan is a mess. As are many other countries.
And so is the UK. But on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is minor political incompetence and 10 is all-out civil/religious war, we're at 1, or 1.5. And the scale is probably exponential.
The news today makes me incredibly glad to have been born in, and living in the, UK. And it makes me more determined for the country to become 0.25 or 0.5, not 2 or 3.
'We' are lucky, folks ...
This is very true and worth remembering sometimes.
Yes it is
Maybe there should be some kind of penalty for first world problem whining? Anyone caught griping online about being addressed by the wrong pronoun, or accusing others of micro aggressions, should have to spend a day fundraising for refugees
Of course you pick examples to suit a political agenda - yours - and thus lose the point of the point.
Ah if you cant see a good point made because you disagree with the examples, you're not half the man I thought you were!
No the point is deep and fundamental and has zero to do with political orientation. You cheapened it in a way I'd never have done. THAT's the sort of man I am. A man who would never cheapen deep and fundamental points.
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
Trump wanted out as soon as possible. Unless he thought doing so would lead to utter collapse so quickly, which seems unlikely, I don't think it likely he would have sought to get civilians out beforehand.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
Catholic priests were so much better?
Whilst there have been plenty of wicked Catholic priests, and whilst the church has undoubtedly engaged in some cover-ups to try and protect its reputation, I don't think it's ever officially sanctioned anything half as unpleasant as fundamentalist Islam.
This is an important distinction - it is very unsatisfactory that the Catholic Church has harboured a number of child abusers, but that is an order of magnitude less bad than as an institution actively promoting child abuse.
Some curiously interesting tweets coming out of Kabul .
"This evening in Kabul, Hamid Karzai, Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, Abdul Hadi Muslimyar and a number of other former officials met with Maulvi Amir Khan Mottaki, Chairman of the Islamic Emirate's Invitation, Guidance, Recruitment and Recruitment Commission."
Afghanistan is a mess. As are many other countries.
And so is the UK. But on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is minor political incompetence and 10 is all-out civil/religious war, we're at 1, or 1.5. And the scale is probably exponential.
The news today makes me incredibly glad to have been born in, and living in the, UK. And it makes me more determined for the country to become 0.25 or 0.5, not 2 or 3.
'We' are lucky, folks ...
This is very true and worth remembering sometimes.
Yes it is
Maybe there should be some kind of penalty for first world problem whining? Anyone caught griping online about being addressed by the wrong pronoun, or accusing others of micro aggressions, should have to spend a day fundraising for refugees
Of course you pick examples to suit a political agenda - yours - and thus lose the point of the point.
Ah if you cant see a good point made because you disagree with the examples, you're not half the man I thought you were!
No the point is deep and fundamental and has zero to do with political orientation. You cheapened it in a way I'd never have done. THAT's the sort of man I am. A man who would never cheapen deep and fundamental points.
Oh no! Unable to make light of any given situation... not a quarter of the man I thought
The lawyer for the sex slaver Shamima Begum posted a tweet saying “the boys are back in town” as the Taliban retook Kabul
Why do we tolerate these people for a moment? They are either Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. They loathe us even as they exploit our freedoms. They laugh at us as they plot to kill us
So are we going to take in Afghan refugees then? Or are we going to have smirking Priti announce that we don't want to take in these terrorists.
So what's your answer to the problem? Please give us a fully-considered view on what the government should be doing. Numbers and details preferred.
Do as Defence Secretary and "cos I'm a Soldier" Ben Wallace suggests for starters. If they worked for us then they and their families. Then we as part of the international community are going to have to take responsibility for the refugees our actions have created.
We need to take tens of thousands like the Americans and Canadians. We did this. We are responsible.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
Catholic priests were so much better?
If you don't mind me saying so that is a silly comment.
It is, but there's also a kernel of truth. Anyone lambasting the way the Taliban treats women as second-class citizens, whilst supporting the Catholic church, are being somewhat hypocritical. (And I might add other churches, in the present and the past.) They treat women very much as second-class citizens.
But in a way that's unfair: lots of evils have been done in the name of religion, and religion has been used to excuse lots of evil. It's just that Catholicism, like Islam and Judaism, has been slow to change.
And it's not just religion. Look at the age some princes and princesses were married off at. Isabella of Valois being a very sad example (married aged 6, widowed aged 9, married an 11-year old cousin aged 16, died in childbirth aged 19). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Valois
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
Trump wanted out as soon as possible. Unless he thought doing so would lead to utter collapse so quickly, which seems unlikely, I don't think it likely he would have sought to get civilians out beforehand.
Trump also did exactly pretty much exactly this in Syria. The Kurds had to hand themselves over to Assad so they didn't get exterminated by the Turks.
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
He was pushing Biden to withdraw faster.
Indeed. I just think Trump, in his madness, would have made the Taliban hesitate, and if Trump saw it going wrong, he’d have ordered the USAF to bomb the Taliban to atoms
I’m not claiming Trump is a better person or a superior politician, just that his personality is so madly mercurial he makes a worse adversary for fuckers like the Taliban. Biden is predictably weak, and weakened further by Wokeism and Harris
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I think he should get out there pronto and charm the Taliban into a gibbering wreck with his comedy. It's not too late.
I still think we should send Gavin Williamson, Nick Gibb, Amanda Spielman and the DfE out there to handle logistics for the Taleban.
They'll be reduced to picking up rocks to throw inside about a week.
I'd be worried about the rock supply being disrupted. Even in the Stan.
OMG OMFFFFG the Ancient Athenian Agora
If the Parthenon disappoints (and it does, despite its sublimity) the Agora is the opposite. OK it probably helped I was half cut on three big ouzos and it was the perfect time of day - 6pm, the Attic sun setting… but it is stunning
The most perfect Greek temple in the world. Hephaestus. The stoa where stoicism started. The arches where Socrates and Plato and Aristotle argued. The Acropolis glowing above (by far the best view of it). The olive groves where democracy was born. The bloody bidet of Pericles, or something
Honestly, a genius place, in the true sense. Athens is amazing now the fucking tourists are all dead
Thank you!
No, thank YOU. I wouldn’t have gone if you hadn’t raved about it. I’ve been all over the world and I find it easy to be blasé. But, wow
Especially now, with so few tourists, despite the glories of high summer
If you ever do it I recommend you do it just how I did it. Uber to the Acropolis, have lunch first. Boozy. Greek salad. Taramasalata. Perhaps in the museum (I didn’t go there but the restaurant is said to be fab)
Then slog up the Parthenon in the high high heat. Treat it as a pilgrimage, where the suffering is the point. Get to the top. Say, OK, this is a bit shit, but whatever, it’s also amazing. Admire a karyatid and some coffering. Spot Glenn Close in a hat (I did)
Then, slightly shrugging, walk down the other side, the shadier more interesting side. Past the oldest churches. Have several soothing ouzos in a charming taverna (there are many). Then go to the Agora nearby and basically have an orgasm at the density of beautiful history in a place that looks like an idealised painting of Ancient Greece
Oh yes. Oh yes.
I am now jealous. I properly discovered ancient Stoic philosophy over the last 12 months and I now think it is the best attempt at religion ever achieved.
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
He was pushing Biden to withdraw faster.
Indeed. I just think Trump, in his madness, would have made the Taliban hesitate, and if Trump saw it going wrong, he’d have ordered the USAF to bomb the Taliban to atoms
I’m not claiming Trump is a better person or a superior politician, just that his personality is so madly mercurial he makes a worse adversary for fuckers like the Taliban. Biden is predictably weak, and weakened further by Wokeism and Harris
Biden is a fucking disaster for America right now
Last I heard Harris has had zero to say about current situation.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
I think he should get out there pronto and charm the Taliban into a gibbering wreck with his comedy. It's not too late.
I still think we should send Gavin Williamson, Nick Gibb, Amanda Spielman and the DfE out there to handle logistics for the Taleban.
They'll be reduced to picking up rocks to throw inside about a week.
I'd be worried about the rock supply being disrupted. Even in the Stan.
OMG OMFFFFG the Ancient Athenian Agora
If the Parthenon disappoints (and it does, despite its sublimity) the Agora is the opposite. OK it probably helped I was half cut on three big ouzos and it was the perfect time of day - 6pm, the Attic sun setting… but it is stunning
The most perfect Greek temple in the world. Hephaestus. The stoa where stoicism started. The arches where Socrates and Plato and Aristotle argued. The Acropolis glowing above (by far the best view of it). The olive groves where democracy was born. The bloody bidet of Pericles, or something
Honestly, a genius place, in the true sense. Athens is amazing now the fucking tourists are all dead
Thank you!
No, thank YOU. I wouldn’t have gone if you hadn’t raved about it. I’ve been all over the world and I find it easy to be blasé. But, wow
Especially now, with so few tourists, despite the glories of high summer
If you ever do it I recommend you do it just how I did it. Uber to the Acropolis, have lunch first. Boozy. Greek salad. Taramasalata. Perhaps in the museum (I didn’t go there but the restaurant is said to be fab)
Then slog up the Parthenon in the high high heat. Treat it as a pilgrimage, where the suffering is the point. Get to the top. Say, OK, this is a bit shit, but whatever, it’s also amazing. Admire a karyatid and some coffering. Spot Glenn Close in a hat (I did)
Then, slightly shrugging, walk down the other side, the shadier more interesting side. Past the oldest churches. Have several soothing ouzos in a charming taverna (there are many). Then go to the Agora nearby and basically have an orgasm at the density of beautiful history in a place that looks like an idealised painting of Ancient Greece
Oh yes. Oh yes.
I am now jealous. I properly discovered ancient Stoic philosophy over the last 12 months and I now think it is the best attempt at religion ever achieved.
Yes!
I love Stoicism (even if I don’t always measure up) but I had no idea of the etymology of the word. Until today
“The name "Stoicism" derives from the Stoa Poikile (Ancient Greek: ἡ ποικίλη στοά), or "painted porch", a colonnade decorated with mythic and historical battle scenes, on the north side of the Agora in Athens, where Zeno and his followers gathered to discuss their ideas.”
And you can go there now. Slightly tipsy on ouzo. To the very same place where Zeno and Co discussed their ideas. Wonderful!
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
For the taliban, the only consent that matters is that of the father. And they’re very good at coercion. They’re fking evil.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
Catholic priests were so much better?
If you don't mind me saying so that is a silly comment.
It is, but there's also a kernel of truth. Anyone lambasting the way the Taliban treats women as second-class citizens, whilst supporting the Catholic church, are being somewhat hypocritical. (And I might add other churches, in the present and the past.) They treat women very much as second-class citizens.
But in a way that's unfair: lots of evils have been done in the name of religion, and religion has been used to excuse lots of evil. It's just that Catholicism, like Islam and Judaism, has been slow to change.
And it's not just religion. Look at the age some princes and princesses were married off at. Isabella of Valois being a very sad example (married aged 6, widowed aged 9, married an 11-year old cousin aged 16, died in childbirth aged 19). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Valois
Actually, as a fact, it isn’t, since it was a question. It might be a silly question, but I don’t think so. The fundamental problem arises when some individuals use the authority of a purported supreme being to secure power over others. Unchecked, abuse is a near certain consequence irrespective of the flavour of religion involved.
Afghanistan is a mess. As are many other countries.
And so is the UK. But on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is minor political incompetence and 10 is all-out civil/religious war, we're at 1, or 1.5. And the scale is probably exponential.
The news today makes me incredibly glad to have been born in, and living in the, UK. And it makes me more determined for the country to become 0.25 or 0.5, not 2 or 3.
'We' are lucky, folks ...
This is very true and worth remembering sometimes.
Yes it is
Maybe there should be some kind of penalty for first world problem whining? Anyone caught griping online about being addressed by the wrong pronoun, or accusing others of micro aggressions, should have to spend a day fundraising for refugees
Of course you pick examples to suit a political agenda - yours - and thus lose the point of the point.
Ah if you cant see a good point made because you disagree with the examples, you're not half the man I thought you were!
No the point is deep and fundamental and has zero to do with political orientation. You cheapened it in a way I'd never have done. THAT's the sort of man I am. A man who would never cheapen deep and fundamental points.
Oh no! Unable to make light of any given situation... not a quarter of the man I thought
Sounds like I'm the incredible shrinking man in your eyes. Worse things to be.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
Presumably the age of consent is because they don’t want to implicitly criticise Mohamed. Are there many cases of marriage at that age?
Afghanistan is a mess. As are many other countries.
And so is the UK. But on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is minor political incompetence and 10 is all-out civil/religious war, we're at 1, or 1.5. And the scale is probably exponential.
The news today makes me incredibly glad to have been born in, and living in the, UK. And it makes me more determined for the country to become 0.25 or 0.5, not 2 or 3.
'We' are lucky, folks ...
This is very true and worth remembering sometimes.
Yes it is
Maybe there should be some kind of penalty for first world problem whining? Anyone caught griping online about being addressed by the wrong pronoun, or accusing others of micro aggressions, should have to spend a day fundraising for refugees
How about people griping online about people griping about pronouns? Not trying to be too personal here but you raised the pronoun issue. No-one else did.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
Presumably the age of consent is because they don’t want to implicitly criticise Mohamed. Are there many cases of marriage at that age?
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
Presumably the age of consent is because they don’t want to implicitly criticise Mohamed. Are there many cases of marriage at that age?
The mere possibility makes that irrelevant. Apparently most others can get over that implicit criticism, so there must be another reason they want to leave open that door besides that.
The lawyer for the sex slaver Shamima Begum posted a tweet saying “the boys are back in town” as the Taliban retook Kabul
Why do we tolerate these people for a moment? They are either Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. They loathe us even as they exploit our freedoms. They laugh at us as they plot to kill us
A small acknowledgement to Jeremy Hunt (my local MP). I raised an issue about a group of female vets and nurses working for a British charity in Kabul and asked him to try to get them included in the evacuation plans. He responded in 10 minutes flat and said he'd take it up with Raab.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
Presumably the age of consent is because they don’t want to implicitly criticise Mohamed. Are there many cases of marriage at that age?
My question exactly.
Although even if there are zero marriages it’s pretty reprehensible as a signal of their views on the rights of women
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
Hmm. Got to demur here. A society which explicitly makes pedophilia legal will have more of it. How is that even controversial? Most countries/societies make sex with underage children, let alone pre-pubescent children, a serious crime. The man boy love of Ancient Greece was not the free-for-all we presume, many disapproved and it always skirted legality.
The question is whether any Islamic society - or any other - does actively approve. I suggest ISIS came pretty close to saying “anything goes” with women and girls, as we saw from the legitimised sex slavery of the Yazidi girls, so the Taliban may not be far behind
Trump is right. I despise Trump, and believe even the useless, terrible Biden is a better president, but I don’t think he would have permitted this utter debacle in Kabul
He was pushing Biden to withdraw faster.
Indeed. I just think Trump, in his madness, would have made the Taliban hesitate, and if Trump saw it going wrong, he’d have ordered the USAF to bomb the Taliban to atoms
I’m not claiming Trump is a better person or a superior politician, just that his personality is so madly mercurial he makes a worse adversary for fuckers like the Taliban. Biden is predictably weak, and weakened further by Wokeism and Harris
Biden is a fucking disaster for America right now
So, Trump, same outcome but some enemy blood shed?
Maybe. But he had a history of bungle and bluster and posture remember.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
I always strive to criticize ideas and positions. Playing the ball, not the man, as it were. I have always thought tha reacting to criticism of one's position with personal attacks reveals deep emotional and intellectual fragility.
With that, I will just repeat again that your line that legalization of sex with nine year olds has no effect on practical pedophilia is laughable. It is so obviously ludicrous and driven by a desperate desire to excuse Islam.
The lawyer for the sex slaver Shamima Begum posted a tweet saying “the boys are back in town” as the Taliban retook Kabul
Why do we tolerate these people for a moment? They are either Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. They loathe us even as they exploit our freedoms. They laugh at us as they plot to kill us
It’s in the article. Linked. You have to read for about 1 minute. I am so done with your tedious, pensionable, unamusing yet-trying-to-be-funny oh-I’m-a-wry-old-lefty-accountant-in-Hampstead stupidity. You commit the worst of sins. You BORE
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
Hmm. Got to demur here. A society which explicitly makes pedophilia legal will have more of it. How is that even controversial? Most countries/societies make sex with underage children, let alone pre-pubescent children, a serious crime. The man boy love of Ancient Greece was not the free-for-all we presume, many disapproved and it always skirted legality.
The question is whether any Islamic society - or any other - does actively approve. I suggest ISIS came pretty close to saying “anything goes” with women and girls, as we saw from the legitimised sex slavery of the Yazidi girls, so the Taliban may not be far behind
Disagree. I bet (not that I'd be prepared to put it to the test, so regard it as a dickless bet if you will) that if I wanted sex with a 9 year old girl tonight and set off with £100 in my pocket to make it happen, it would be no harder nor easier in London than in Kabul.
An academic is suing Leeds Beckett University after she was dropped from her advisory role over tweets calling a mixed-race man a “house negro”, alleging the decision was discriminatory because of her belief in critical race theory and Black radicalism.
The university ended its association with the academic adviser Aysha Khanom after accusing her of “racist language” in relation to tweets using the terms “house negro” and “coconut” – the former in a question.
In what is believed to be the first case of its kind, Khanom is arguing that critical race theory and Black radicalism are protected beliefs under the Equality Act. Critical race theory says race is a social construct used to oppress people of colour and which begets systemic racism.
The legal claim has been supported by many antiracist organisations and academics in an open letter. It was penned by Kehinde Andrews, a professor of Black studies at Birmingham City University, and accuses Leeds Beckett of censoring “central concepts in Black intellectual thought”.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
Presumably the age of consent is because they don’t want to implicitly criticise Mohamed. Are there many cases of marriage at that age?
My question exactly.
Although even if there are zero marriages it’s pretty reprehensible as a signal of their views on the rights of women
Well of course it is. But given the recently published findings of the IICSA here, nobody English is in much of a position to start sounding off about "medieval paedos" anywhere else in the world.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
Hmm. Got to demur here. A society which explicitly makes pedophilia legal will have more of it. How is that even controversial? Most countries/societies make sex with underage children, let alone pre-pubescent children, a serious crime. The man boy love of Ancient Greece was not the free-for-all we presume, many disapproved and it always skirted legality.
The question is whether any Islamic society - or any other - does actively approve. I suggest ISIS came pretty close to saying “anything goes” with women and girls, as we saw from the legitimised sex slavery of the Yazidi girls, so the Taliban may not be far behind
Disagree. I bet (not that I'd be prepared to put it to the test, so regard it as a dickless bet if you will) that if I wanted sex with a 9 year old girl tonight and set off with £100 in my pocket to make it happen, it would be no harder nor easier in London than in Kabul.
I suggest we end this debate as it veers towards something deeply unpleasant. But I suggest you are being harsh on Aslan, a new commenter, and you should probably quit drinking again
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
I always strive to criticize ideas and positions. Playing the ball, not the man, as it were. I have always thought tha reacting to criticism of one's position with personal attacks reveals deep emotional and intellectual fragility.
With that, I will just repeat again that your line that legalization of sex with nine year olds has no effect on practical pedophilia is laughable. It is so obviously ludicrous and driven by a desperate desire to excuse Islam.
An academic is suing Leeds Beckett University after she was dropped from her advisory role over tweets calling a mixed-race man a “house negro”, alleging the decision was discriminatory because of her belief in critical race theory and Black radicalism.
The university ended its association with the academic adviser Aysha Khanom after accusing her of “racist language” in relation to tweets using the terms “house negro” and “coconut” – the former in a question.
In what is believed to be the first case of its kind, Khanom is arguing that critical race theory and Black radicalism are protected beliefs under the Equality Act. Critical race theory says race is a social construct used to oppress people of colour and which begets systemic racism.
The legal claim has been supported by many antiracist organisations and academics in an open letter. It was penned by Kehinde Andrews, a professor of Black studies at Birmingham City University, and accuses Leeds Beckett of censoring “central concepts in Black intellectual thought”.
I'm sure opening up terms like house negro as acceptable due to one's beliefs would have no unintended consequences for people with unpalatable views who might like to utilise pejorative terms of their own.
I think he should get out there pronto and charm the Taliban into a gibbering wreck with his comedy. It's not too late.
I still think we should send Gavin Williamson, Nick Gibb, Amanda Spielman and the DfE out there to handle logistics for the Taleban.
They'll be reduced to picking up rocks to throw inside about a week.
I'd be worried about the rock supply being disrupted. Even in the Stan.
OMG OMFFFFG the Ancient Athenian Agora
If the Parthenon disappoints (and it does, despite its sublimity) the Agora is the opposite. OK it probably helped I was half cut on three big ouzos and it was the perfect time of day - 6pm, the Attic sun setting… but it is stunning
The most perfect Greek temple in the world. Hephaestus. The stoa where stoicism started. The arches where Socrates and Plato and Aristotle argued. The Acropolis glowing above (by far the best view of it). The olive groves where democracy was born. The bloody bidet of Pericles, or something
Honestly, a genius place, in the true sense. Athens is amazing now the fucking tourists are all dead
Thank you!
No, thank YOU. I wouldn’t have gone if you hadn’t raved about it. I’ve been all over the world and I find it easy to be blasé. But, wow
Especially now, with so few tourists, despite the glories of high summer
If you ever do it I recommend you do it just how I did it. Uber to the Acropolis, have lunch first. Boozy. Greek salad. Taramasalata. Perhaps in the museum (I didn’t go there but the restaurant is said to be fab)
Then slog up the Parthenon in the high high heat. Treat it as a pilgrimage, where the suffering is the point. Get to the top. Say, OK, this is a bit shit, but whatever, it’s also amazing. Admire a karyatid and some coffering. Spot Glenn Close in a hat (I did)
Then, slightly shrugging, walk down the other side, the shadier more interesting side. Past the oldest churches. Have several soothing ouzos in a charming taverna (there are many). Then go to the Agora nearby and basically have an orgasm at the density of beautiful history in a place that looks like an idealised painting of Ancient Greece
Oh yes. Oh yes.
I am now jealous. I properly discovered ancient Stoic philosophy over the last 12 months and I now think it is the best attempt at religion ever achieved.
Yes!
I love Stoicism (even if I don’t always measure up) but I had no idea of the etymology of the word. Until today
“The name "Stoicism" derives from the Stoa Poikile (Ancient Greek: ἡ ποικίλη στοά), or "painted porch", a colonnade decorated with mythic and historical battle scenes, on the north side of the Agora in Athens, where Zeno and his followers gathered to discuss their ideas.”
And you can go there now. Slightly tipsy on ouzo. To the very same place where Zeno and Co discussed their ideas. Wonderful!
Stoicism is wonderful for so many reasons, but one tangential thing about is the reason for the name. In its earliest times some started describing it as Zenoism, following many Greek philosophies as being named after its founder. But the Stoics quickly rejected this, believing that elevating an individual on a pedestal would be a mistake, and would lead to the philosophy evolving into a debate over who was closest to Zeno's view, pursing the specific verbiage he used etc, rather than debating what was closest to the truth. So instead they named their belief system over the place it was discussed, as truth was not owned by one man.
An academic is suing Leeds Beckett University after she was dropped from her advisory role over tweets calling a mixed-race man a “house negro”, alleging the decision was discriminatory because of her belief in critical race theory and Black radicalism.
The university ended its association with the academic adviser Aysha Khanom after accusing her of “racist language” in relation to tweets using the terms “house negro” and “coconut” – the former in a question.
In what is believed to be the first case of its kind, Khanom is arguing that critical race theory and Black radicalism are protected beliefs under the Equality Act. Critical race theory says race is a social construct used to oppress people of colour and which begets systemic racism.
The legal claim has been supported by many antiracist organisations and academics in an open letter. It was penned by Kehinde Andrews, a professor of Black studies at Birmingham City University, and accuses Leeds Beckett of censoring “central concepts in Black intellectual thought”.
So are we going to take in Afghan refugees then? Or are we going to have smirking Priti announce that we don't want to take in these terrorists.
So what's your answer to the problem? Please give us a fully-considered view on what the government should be doing. Numbers and details preferred.
Do as Defence Secretary and "cos I'm a Soldier" Ben Wallace suggests for starters. If they worked for us then they and their families. Then we as part of the international community are going to have to take responsibility for the refugees our actions have created.
We need to take tens of thousands like the Americans and Canadians. We did this. We are responsible.
Responsible for what ?
We gave lives and money to give the Afghans a chance to build a modern country.
Yet they made no effort to keep it and accepted the Taliban instead.
A small acknowledgement to Jeremy Hunt (my local MP). I raised an issue about a group of female vets and nurses working for a British charity in Kabul and asked him to try to get them included in the evacuation plans. He responded in 10 minutes flat and said he'd take it up with Raab.
Credit where it's due.
Jeremy Hunt is one of the few politicians, from all sides, that has elevated his reputation since the beginning of Covid. And now beyond.
The inability of Boris to include people like him in the govt is a serious blemish. Also, I don’t get it. Boris’ USP is meant to be “fuck it I have no ideology I just recruit the best” - this is one reason I thought he might be a good PM. So why isn’t he doing it now?
So are we going to take in Afghan refugees then? Or are we going to have smirking Priti announce that we don't want to take in these terrorists.
So what's your answer to the problem? Please give us a fully-considered view on what the government should be doing. Numbers and details preferred.
Do as Defence Secretary and "cos I'm a Soldier" Ben Wallace suggests for starters. If they worked for us then they and their families. Then we as part of the international community are going to have to take responsibility for the refugees our actions have created.
We need to take tens of thousands like the Americans and Canadians. We did this. We are responsible.
Responsible for what ?
We gave lives and money to give the Afghans a chance to build a modern country.
Yet they made no effort to keep it and accepted the Taliban instead.
That's right. We have no responsibilities at all. And the people fleeing the Taliban are doing so having accepted the Taliban.
You keep telling yourself whatever you need to keep justifying your total lack of empathy for others.
Afghanistan is a mess. As are many other countries.
And so is the UK. But on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is minor political incompetence and 10 is all-out civil/religious war, we're at 1, or 1.5. And the scale is probably exponential.
The news today makes me incredibly glad to have been born in, and living in the, UK. And it makes me more determined for the country to become 0.25 or 0.5, not 2 or 3.
'We' are lucky, folks ...
This is very true and worth remembering sometimes.
Yes it is
Maybe there should be some kind of penalty for first world problem whining? Anyone caught griping online about being addressed by the wrong pronoun, or accusing others of micro aggressions, should have to spend a day fundraising for refugees
How about people griping online about people griping about pronouns? Not trying to be too personal here but you raised the pronoun issue. No-one else did.
Just an example of the things people in rich countries have time to get bothered about because they don't face the problems of those in poor, war torn ones. But yes, if we were all so wonderful we would be spending our time out raising money/awareness for people in unfortunate circumstances, rather than on clever clogs, futile arguments
Everyone was slating England's batting after the First Test, and taking consolation in our bowling, but the two points at which this match went wrong for England were to do with the bowling. Choosing to bowl and taking only three wickets on the first day, and allowing India to score an unbeaten 89 for their second-innings ninth wicket this morning.
An academic is suing Leeds Beckett University after she was dropped from her advisory role over tweets calling a mixed-race man a “house negro”, alleging the decision was discriminatory because of her belief in critical race theory and Black radicalism.
The university ended its association with the academic adviser Aysha Khanom after accusing her of “racist language” in relation to tweets using the terms “house negro” and “coconut” – the former in a question.
In what is believed to be the first case of its kind, Khanom is arguing that critical race theory and Black radicalism are protected beliefs under the Equality Act. Critical race theory says race is a social construct used to oppress people of colour and which begets systemic racism.
The legal claim has been supported by many antiracist organisations and academics in an open letter. It was penned by Kehinde Andrews, a professor of Black studies at Birmingham City University, and accuses Leeds Beckett of censoring “central concepts in Black intellectual thought”.
A small acknowledgement to Jeremy Hunt (my local MP). I raised an issue about a group of female vets and nurses working for a British charity in Kabul and asked him to try to get them included in the evacuation plans. He responded in 10 minutes flat and said he'd take it up with Raab.
Credit where it's due.
Jeremy Hunt is one of the few politicians, from all sides, that has elevated his reputation since the beginning of Covid. And now beyond.
The inability of Boris to include people like him in the govt is a serious blemish. Also, I don’t get it. Boris’ USP is meant to be “fuck it I have no ideology I just recruit the best” - this is one reason I thought he might be a good PM. So why isn’t he doing it now?
Because as Mayor of London it didn’t matter if they outshone him, they couldn’t take his job. Same to a lesser extent as editor of the Spectator.
If he appoints people who are intelligent, independently minded and competent to his cabinet, they will quickly overshadow him and then he’ll be out in favour of one of them.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
Hmm. Got to demur here. A society which explicitly makes pedophilia legal will have more of it. How is that even controversial? Most countries/societies make sex with underage children, let alone pre-pubescent children, a serious crime. The man boy love of Ancient Greece was not the free-for-all we presume, many disapproved and it always skirted legality.
The question is whether any Islamic society - or any other - does actively approve. I suggest ISIS came pretty close to saying “anything goes” with women and girls, as we saw from the legitimised sex slavery of the Yazidi girls, so the Taliban may not be far behind
I would disagree with this. Islam, even in the variety practiced by ISIS and the Taliban (and both are different from each other) is a deeply legalistic, rules based system. The female slaves they had fell under specific conditions, determined by Mohammed in the Quran and the Hadith. For one, they needed to be either acquired via one's own participation in a battle (as war booty) and divided up equally between those who had a claim, or alternatively purchased from someone who had (hence the horrific auctions). For two, they could not be people of the book, a protected class in the Koran describing Jews and Christians, unless they had been deemed to refuse protection of Islam. This is why the Yazidis were so overwhelmingly the victims, as they were classed as pagans and thus unprotected, deserving the same treatment as Arab pagans that Mohammed and his generals enslaved. (Mohammed himself distributed slaves to followers, according to authentic Muslim texts).
Afghanistan is a mess. As are many other countries.
And so is the UK. But on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is minor political incompetence and 10 is all-out civil/religious war, we're at 1, or 1.5. And the scale is probably exponential.
The news today makes me incredibly glad to have been born in, and living in the, UK. And it makes me more determined for the country to become 0.25 or 0.5, not 2 or 3.
'We' are lucky, folks ...
This is very true and worth remembering sometimes.
Yes it is
Maybe there should be some kind of penalty for first world problem whining? Anyone caught griping online about being addressed by the wrong pronoun, or accusing others of micro aggressions, should have to spend a day fundraising for refugees
Of course you pick examples to suit a political agenda - yours - and thus lose the point of the point.
Ah if you cant see a good point made because you disagree with the examples, you're not half the man I thought you were!
No the point is deep and fundamental and has zero to do with political orientation. You cheapened it in a way I'd never have done. THAT's the sort of man I am. A man who would never cheapen deep and fundamental points.
Oh no! Unable to make light of any given situation... not a quarter of the man I thought
Sounds like I'm the incredible shrinking man in your eyes. Worse things to be.
So are we going to take in Afghan refugees then? Or are we going to have smirking Priti announce that we don't want to take in these terrorists.
So what's your answer to the problem? Please give us a fully-considered view on what the government should be doing. Numbers and details preferred.
Do as Defence Secretary and "cos I'm a Soldier" Ben Wallace suggests for starters. If they worked for us then they and their families. Then we as part of the international community are going to have to take responsibility for the refugees our actions have created.
We need to take tens of thousands like the Americans and Canadians. We did this. We are responsible.
Responsible for what ?
We gave lives and money to give the Afghans a chance to build a modern country.
Yet they made no effort to keep it and accepted the Taliban instead.
That's right. We have no responsibilities at all. And the people fleeing the Taliban are doing so having accepted the Taliban.
You keep telling yourself whatever you need to keep justifying your total lack of empathy for others.
Congratulations you've signalled your virtue.
Now deal with the reality that nobody was prepared to fight the Taliban.
The Afghans have had their chance and they tossed it away.
A small acknowledgement to Jeremy Hunt (my local MP). I raised an issue about a group of female vets and nurses working for a British charity in Kabul and asked him to try to get them included in the evacuation plans. He responded in 10 minutes flat and said he'd take it up with Raab.
Credit where it's due.
Yes he's my MP too now, and I am impressed though I have not yet met him. I wrote to him to complain about something that upset me greatly, and I was quite surprised that he wrote back at some length to explain why he disagreed with me. One has to respect that.
Rather than asking what it is about religious men that makes them think that their wives can’t think for themselves we should be asking why are they so often pedophiles? 9? That’s perverted. As their wives would tell them if asked.
It shows how disgustingly in thrall to the literal interpretation of Islam the Taliban is, no other nation on earth has an age of consent of 9 (It's the age Aisha/Muhammad consumated their marriage). Women's views, and the views of the civilised world are an irrelevance to them. The next lowest is Nigeria at 11.
Just horrific.
These men are medieval. It’s basically a paedo cult.
I strongly doubt paedophilia is more prevalent at one time or place than another. The evidence from our very own inquiry into child abuse suggests that when the opportunity arises, it will pretty much automatically be taken, and that the Christian church is just as much a "paedo cult" if you give it a chance to be. It is of course horrific, but nothing is gained by getting all gutter press headline about it.
There is surely a huge difference between individuals transgressing against the doctrine of their religion albeit with institutional cover-ups versus a doctrine of paedophilia enforced by violence and the def facto government? Severe sexual repression in common I agree.
Not really, the end result's the same. Who knows, praps legalising the 9 year olds takes the pressure off the 5 y.o.s?
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
The idea that the same amount of pedophilia happens in a theocracy that openly defends it and a society that tries, even if often badly, to eliminate it, is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on the internet.
Funny you should mention that. The reason I adhere to PB is the extraordinarily high general level of intelligence of the regular posters here. There's only three contributors that I classify as positively stupid, and you, I regret to say, are one of them. I wouldn't usually mention this, but you started it.
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
Hmm. Got to demur here. A society which explicitly makes pedophilia legal will have more of it. How is that even controversial? Most countries/societies make sex with underage children, let alone pre-pubescent children, a serious crime. The man boy love of Ancient Greece was not the free-for-all we presume, many disapproved and it always skirted legality.
The question is whether any Islamic society - or any other - does actively approve. I suggest ISIS came pretty close to saying “anything goes” with women and girls, as we saw from the legitimised sex slavery of the Yazidi girls, so the Taliban may not be far behind
I would disagree with this. Islam, even in the variety practiced by ISIS and the Taliban (and both are different from each other) is a deeply legalistic, rules based system. The female slaves they had fell under specific conditions, determined by Mohammed in the Quran and the Hadith. For one, they needed to be either acquired via one's own participation in a battle (as war booty) and divided up equally between those who had a claim, or alternatively purchased from someone who had (hence the horrific auctions). For two, they could not be people of the book, a protected class in the Koran describing Jews and Christians, unless they had been deemed to refuse protection of Islam. This is why the Yazidis were so overwhelmingly the victims, as they were classed as pagans and thus unprotected, deserving the same treatment as Arab pagans that Mohammed and his generals enslaved. (Mohammed himself distributed slaves to followers, according to authentic Muslim texts).
You've highlighted the difficult truth that Islam unlike the other great religions had a relatively recent founder who was a political figure, used violence and laid down detailed instructions for the conduct of everyday life many of which are pretty repugnant to both Christian and secular Western populations. These are deep but hopefully not insurmountable barriers to reform and there are both optimistic and pessimistic signs with regard to integration and co-existence.
Comments
Now the Taliban are back in control in Afghanistan there is nothing to stop AQ and other jihadi groups who were there before from returning and new ones on top. Afghanistan will be the global centre of terror training camps against the West again.
The only reason we are departing in ignominy is the failed, weak surrender of Biden and Harris, under Bush and indeed Obama Afghanistan was secure and the Taliban forced back to their heartlands.
Whether the Afghans would be motivated to fight the Taliban is irrelevant, we should never have taken the risk and kept troops there indefinitely if needed as sensible leaders like McCain wanted
‘Mayhem continuing at Kabul Airport. Shots being fired at individuals attempting to jump the wall..’
https://twitter.com/bhoopendrasing5/status/1427335487610507284?s=21
That looks like Taliban shooting at civilians
This is an important distinction - it is very unsatisfactory that the Catholic Church has harboured a number of child abusers, but that is an order of magnitude less bad than as an institution actively promoting child abuse.
"This evening in Kabul, Hamid Karzai, Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, Abdul Hadi Muslimyar and a number of other former officials met with Maulvi Amir Khan Mottaki, Chairman of the Islamic Emirate's Invitation, Guidance, Recruitment and Recruitment Commission."
Why do we tolerate these people for a moment? They are either Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. They loathe us even as they exploit our freedoms. They laugh at us as they plot to kill us
Enough
https://twitter.com/jadaz76/status/1427284437952258051?s=21
We need to take tens of thousands like the Americans and Canadians. We did this. We are responsible.
But in a way that's unfair: lots of evils have been done in the name of religion, and religion has been used to excuse lots of evil. It's just that Catholicism, like Islam and Judaism, has been slow to change.
And it's not just religion. Look at the age some princes and princesses were married off at. Isabella of Valois being a very sad example (married aged 6, widowed aged 9, married an 11-year old cousin aged 16, died in childbirth aged 19). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Valois
I’m not claiming Trump is a better person or a superior politician, just that his personality is so madly mercurial he makes a worse adversary for fuckers like the Taliban. Biden is predictably weak, and weakened further by Wokeism and Harris
Biden is a fucking disaster for America right now
And I'm doubtful about theories of sexual repression. I think on the whole if people want it, they are getting it, and getting the precise flavour of it they want. Isn't that rather the point we are both making?
She had plenty to say about Israel ......
I love Stoicism (even if I don’t always measure up) but I had no idea of the etymology of the word. Until today
“The name "Stoicism" derives from the Stoa Poikile (Ancient Greek: ἡ ποικίλη στοά), or "painted porch", a colonnade decorated with mythic and historical battle scenes, on the north side of the Agora in Athens, where Zeno and his followers gathered to discuss their ideas.”
And you can go there now. Slightly tipsy on ouzo. To the very same place where Zeno and Co discussed their ideas. Wonderful!
That's that out of the way.
An intelligent and informed analysis of the findings of the IICSA findings, or the news generally, suggests that sex with underage children is exactly as available in this country as it is anywhere else. Have you taken the trouble to inform yourself of the extent to which males avail themselves of the opportunity to marry 9 year olds, where it is legal to do so? Thought not.
It must be embarrassing, being you.
Credit where it's due.
The question is whether any Islamic society - or any other - does actively approve. I suggest ISIS came pretty close to saying “anything goes” with women and girls, as we saw from the legitimised sex slavery of the Yazidi girls, so the Taliban may not be far behind
Maybe. But he had a history of bungle and bluster and posture remember.
With that, I will just repeat again that your line that legalization of sex with nine year olds has no effect on practical pedophilia is laughable. It is so obviously ludicrous and driven by a desperate desire to excuse Islam.
An academic is suing Leeds Beckett University after she was dropped from her advisory role over tweets calling a mixed-race man a “house negro”, alleging the decision was discriminatory because of her belief in critical race theory and Black radicalism.
The university ended its association with the academic adviser Aysha Khanom after accusing her of “racist language” in relation to tweets using the terms “house negro” and “coconut” – the former in a question.
In what is believed to be the first case of its kind, Khanom is arguing that critical race theory and Black radicalism are protected beliefs under the Equality Act. Critical race theory says race is a social construct used to oppress people of colour and which begets systemic racism.
The legal claim has been supported by many antiracist organisations and academics in an open letter. It was penned by Kehinde Andrews, a professor of Black studies at Birmingham City University, and accuses Leeds Beckett of censoring “central concepts in Black intellectual thought”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/16/uk-academic-sues-university-losing-role-critical-race-theory-row-leeds-beckett
We gave lives and money to give the Afghans a chance to build a modern country.
Yet they made no effort to keep it and accepted the Taliban instead.
This thread has suffered a sudden batting collapse
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58229967
I’m disappointed he’s left Scunthorpe out though.
Jeremy Hunt is one of the few politicians, from all sides, that has elevated his reputation since the beginning of Covid. And now beyond.
The inability of Boris to include people like him in the govt is a serious blemish. Also, I don’t get it. Boris’ USP is meant to be “fuck it I have no ideology I just recruit the best” - this is one reason I thought he might be a good PM. So why isn’t he doing it now?
You keep telling yourself whatever you need to keep justifying your total lack of empathy for others.
If he appoints people who are intelligent, independently minded and competent to his cabinet, they will quickly overshadow him and then he’ll be out in favour of one of them.
That’s the biggest scandal in all of this. Will we ever do anything similar ever, anywhere, again?
Now deal with the reality that nobody was prepared to fight the Taliban.
The Afghans have had their chance and they tossed it away.