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Is Sunak going to give state pensioners an 8% increase? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2021

    Leon said:

    I see that ridiculous SeanT article about America - ill-informed gibberish from a typical europhile lefty - is now the most read on the Spectator website. Thank God he has gone, or he'd be crowing on here in his usual obnoxious style.

    It was a fascinating, erudite, insightful and entertaining piece (but don't tell him I said so) and rather sums up everything about America I'd come to know or suspect in recent years. But I wonder how it will be viewed amongst the Spectator readership - a lot of 51st Staters in there I'd have thought.
    I gave up my subscription to The Spectator after one too many Charles Moore white, male, upper-middle class lives matter too articles.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Nope - YG as well yesterday with identical figures - Boris bounces twice - 7 more and he may be a cat!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Sturgeon letter.....I wonder if she posts one too, or just leaves it up on Twitter?

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1425780558173462535?s=20
  • isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Starmer has more dissatisfied with him than Johnson? 😲

    But isn't the line so many want to take is that Johnson is loathed by others, while Starmer is just unknown? How could that be happening?

    This is why you should always look at the gross figures. The unknowns were not a positive for Starmer.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    I see that ridiculous SeanT article about America - ill-informed gibberish from a typical europhile lefty - is now the most read on the Spectator website. Thank God he has gone, or he'd be crowing on here in his usual obnoxious style.

    Yeah - he's probably rereading it endlessly himself, just to get those numbers up, eh.
    I suspect many are flocking to it thinking it's going to be an identikit anti-Biden / anti-Woke piece. But sly old Sean has a shock for them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it dohes by how it acts.
    What do you think Francois, Bone, Cash, Chope, Philip Davies and their Brexity chums, and to an extent Johnson stand for if not English Nationalism?
    British nationalism.

    What about it is English?
    Can't be British. HYUFD says the 'Scots' [ie all of them] don't count for the Tories. He should know, with his messages from CCHQ. And the Tories don't do NI.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 8% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-2)
    REFUK: 3% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 29 Jul


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-2)

    via @SavantaComRes
    , 06 - 08 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 01 Aug
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    felix said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Scott'nPaste trying to mislead again? Who can forget his covid fake figures the other week? Not me. :smiley:
    What is rather misleading, on the Wikipedia page for approval ratings, is that IPSOS-MORI run both ‘favourable/unfavourable’ & ‘satisfied/dissatisfied’ polls, but they are both on there

    Boris F/U is 27/47
    Boris S/D is 41/52

    Sir Keir F/U is 23/38
    Sir Keir S/D is 27/53

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Prince Andrew: Refusal to talk to Epstein investigators ‘straining relations between UK and America’

    … the lack of information-sharing had caused diplomatic strain, with US law enforcement and diplomats raising the matter with their British counterparts.

    The lack of cooperation now spans three years of reported attempts by the US authorities to gather facts from the royal who, in a statement from 2019, said he would be willing to help US law-enforcement with investigations. However, in January last year, Manhattan US attorney Geoffrey Berman said the country’s authorities had received “zero cooperation” from the prince…

    Of particular interest to the US authorities is how money transfers may be linked to the movement of young women and girls. The various interested bodies, including the FBI, believe these may offer insights into ongoing organised criminal operations.

    The authorities’ interests are understood to include multiple trips by the royal to Epstein’s Caribbean island, Little St James, as well as Florida and New York. Last year, prosecutors in the US Virgin Islands, which includes Little St James, alleged Mr Epstein abused hundreds of young women and girls up until 2018.

    Given the US refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas tough.

    Perhaps they could also look a bit more into Bill Clinton and Bill Gates' links to Epstein before lecturing us

    This Windsor scandal is clearly touching a raw Tory nerve. Hardly news. I expect a veritable infestation of squirrels in the coming months and years. Poor old Harry and Meghan.

    Shame on you HY. If the Tories had an ounce of decency they would be encouraging the coward prince to get on a trans-Atlantic plane and face the charges, as he promised to do in 2019.
    1. The US criminal authorities have charged Ghislaine Maxwell. As part of that they may be seeking evidence from Andrew as a potential witness. There is no necessity for him to fly to the US to do this. He would be well advised not to in any case until the basis on which such discussions are had is clear & there is clear agreement on what use can & cannot be made of whatever he says. This is because there are various protections in law - both English & the US - and everyone is entitled to use them. There are dangers in volunteering evidence without doing so. There are also issues for the US authorities because evidence gathered in such a way may not be admissible in any subsequent trial

    Believe me, I have advised a number of people in similar circumstances & any good lawyer would be very wary about telling a client to go to the US to speak to the criminal authorities there just because they ask.

    The US authorities - whether criminal or regulatory - are very willing to grandstand in public to bully people into ignoring their rights. They will often try to ignore different legal requirements in overseas jurisdictions because (a) it is just plain inconvenient for them or (b) it stops them doing what they want.

    2. The US criminal authorities have not charged Andrew with anything. Extradition is irrelevant.

    3. He now faces a civil suit in the US - brought just before the limitation period expires. It is not entirely clear whether the allegation is that he had sex with a minor or had sex with someone over the age of consent without her consent (rape, in other words) or something else. There is an issue as to jurisdiction because the acts complained of, AFAIU, happened in the UK.

    It really does not matter whether he is an HRH or not. He is entitled to the same legal protections as everyone else including the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. There is something unseemly in the way that people rush to assume that because he appears to be an entitled twit he must therefore be guilty of serious crimes. Some of the comments made about him on social media are seriously defamatory. Equally, he is subject to the law as everyone else.

    There will be strategic & tactical decisions which his lawyers will have to consider. In addition, he - and his advisors - need to consider the impact of his behaviour on the rest of his family.

    Much of what is written in the papers about this is ill-informed nonsense.

    I have no idea who is telling the truth here. I do think Andrew was ill-advised to give that interview. But in any event, the matter is now in the hands of the lawyers and, from what I know, some of those advising him are very good indeed. I hope for his sake that he listens to good advice. He clearly hasn't in the past.

    You'd have thought courtiers or someone might have warned him about Epstein. But there again Epstein managed to get into his orbit people far far cleverer than Andrew - Clinton, Gates etc. So what does that say about them?
    One of the many depressing things about Epstein is that his whole career was a tissue of lies and fantasies and yet somehow he persuaded some very bright people to overlook that. His whole fortune that allowed him to get away with so much for so long was built on his fraudulently claiming qualifications and experience he didn’t have for a first job yet even when he was found out, he wasn’t fired because he was so eloquent in his defence.

    His ability to deceive and manipulate was really quite extraordinary and that was one reason he got away with so much.
    He was also an expert in law, and knew very well what was the age of consent in each jurisdiction in which he operated.

    Yes, he’d go out of his way to find places where the age of consent was 14 or 15, rather than the 17 or 18 that’s usual in the USA. It doesn’t mean that people did anything illegal, and most of the comments now are more about shaming than exposing actual illegality.
    Being above the age of consent does not mean you can legally be coerced to have sex, so it doesn't mean they didn't do anything illegal, either. Hence the case against (for example) Maxwell.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    I see that ridiculous SeanT article about America - ill-informed gibberish from a typical europhile lefty - is now the most read on the Spectator website. Thank God he has gone, or he'd be crowing on here in his usual obnoxious style.

    Yeah - he's probably rereading it endlessly himself, just to get those numbers up, eh.
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    I see that ridiculous SeanT article about America - ill-informed gibberish from a typical europhile lefty - is now the most read on the Spectator website. Thank God he has gone, or he'd be crowing on here in his usual obnoxious style.

    Yeah - he's probably rereading it endlessly himself, just to get those numbers up, eh.
    If all the SeanTs read it, that is millions of click-throughs...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    Might be worth considering whether you need to capitalise the Nat bit. The PBtories do confuse Scottish nationalism/independistism with SNP membership. Vide HYUFD, Candy etc.
    It's an interesting one. There's no logical reason why ardent English nationalist sentiment should be correlated to the fruitier end of right wing politics but such is undeniably the case. I have yet to come across a person attracted to the first who is not also a Hard Leaver and (at the very least) clearly on the right of the political spectrum.
    Billy Bragg?

    I seem to recall quite a lot of centre-left supporters of the Campaign for an English Parliament, but I haven’t heard a peep from that organisation in about a decade.
    Yes, that's one against the head. Billy Bragg. Although his lyrics don't always back it up.

    "I don't want to change the world, I'm not looking for a New England. I'm just looking for another girl."

    That's not going to butter many parsnips.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    glw said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Starmer's not had a good summer. I don't particularly mind him, but I'm starting to think he might also be a bit rubbish.
    The plane to Jamaica is a case in point.

    One of the lawyers acting for some of those taken off the flight made a magnificent defence of their cases on a hostile right wing talk show, but even that lawyer conceded that in some situations of very serious crimes committed by people who had not been here long, deportations probably can be justified.

    And then Dianne Abbott gets hold of it. No flights. No deportations. Ever. In any case.

    Starmer?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    It hides youth unemployment figures and with student loans it hides the cost of that hidden unemployment for 30 odd years...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    Won't work for a lot of science and engineering degrees. In addition, most academics need time away from teaching to develop research, obtain funding, go to conferences to help build international networks. Uni is not school+. I don't get 3 months off in summer, despite what 99% of U/G students believe (and by implication their parents too).

    Better models for some courses are degree apprenticeships. Pharmacy is one that I think will go down this route. Probably a 5 year degree, but a paid job while doing it, with short, intense visits to a Uni over the 5 years.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    This convo reminds me of 2013-14. I would talk of British nationalism as a thing and the chaps going around waving UJs, saying GSTQ and talking of how the blood of the Somme cried out for a No vote in indyref would look all aggrieved and deny any such thing and claim they were merely being patriotic Brits.

    The interesting question is whether the Tories themselves have shifted since then. The party has certainly changed a lot. And it seems indicative that a lot, perhaps a majority, of pro-Brexiters in that poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland before the Brexit vote said that they'd rather have Brexit than keep Scotland in the Union. Okay, the situation has changed since then, but it is prima facie evidence for a certain acceptance of English nationalism, or at least distinct identity, in the demographic that presently tends to vote Tory (plus, admittedly, RefUK etc).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    edited August 2021
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Leon said:

    I see that ridiculous SeanT article about America - ill-informed gibberish from a typical europhile lefty - is now the most read on the Spectator website. Thank God he has gone, or he'd be crowing on here in his usual obnoxious style.

    I hadn't realised their readership figures were so low that a link from here might skew them so alarmingly. :wink:
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,718
    Levelling up is exactly what these A levels, GCSEs, Highers etc are doing.
    All shall have prizes, and no-one left behind.
    Innit?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    I had to google it and wiki says… oh my!!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    glw said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Starmer's not had a good summer. I don't particularly mind him, but I'm starting to think he might also be a bit rubbish.
    Big picture a great summer though. He's secure for the GE now. He has his shot. He'd have taken this position if offered it 6 months ago. He'd have bit your hand off.
  • Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    This convo reminds me of 2013-14. I would talk of British nationalism as a thing and the chaps going around waving UJs, saying GSTQ and talking of how the blood of the Somme cried out for a No vote in indyref would look all aggrieved and deny any such thing and claim they were merely being patriotic Brits.

    The interesting question is whether the Tories themselves have shifted since then. The party has certainly changed a lot. And it seems indicative that a lot, perhaps a majority, of pro-Brexiters in that poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland before the Brexit vote said that they'd rather have Brexit than keep Scotland in the Union. Okay, the situation has changed since then, but it is prima facie evidence for a certain acceptance of English nationalism, or at least distinct identity, in the demographic that presently tends to vote Tory (plus, admittedly, RefUK etc).
    I don't see how that's evidence of English nationalism. Its evidence of British nationalism.

    If in a forced choice scenario the Scots would rather leave Britain than see Britain be an independent nation, then the rational thing for a British nationalist to do is respect the wishes of the Scots. Not to cease to support Britain being an independent nation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    In the classic sense, too.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    Might be worth considering whether you need to capitalise the Nat bit. The PBtories do confuse Scottish nationalism/independistism with SNP membership. Vide HYUFD, Candy etc.
    It's an interesting one. There's no logical reason why ardent English nationalist sentiment should be correlated to the fruitier end of right wing politics but such is undeniably the case. I have yet to come across a person attracted to the first who is not also a Hard Leaver and (at the very least) clearly on the right of the political spectrum.
    Imperialism and colonialism an element?
    An almost certain Yes. It's imo a factor in most things.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aliens. It must be aliens.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Interesting(-ish) snippet.

    Just made an appointment to go to visit a business and they said "Don't forget we are still operating under Covid regulations so please remember to wear a mask."

    At which point I very politely pointed out that there are no such regulations but if they wanted I would be very happy to wear a mask.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's like woke. No one really knows what it means beyond what they want it to mean at the point that they use it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    Like 'passive/aggressive' - meaningless drivel to evade responsibility.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    edited August 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting(-ish) snippet.

    Just made an appointment to go to visit a business and they said "Don't forget we are still operating under Covid regulations so please remember to wear a mask."

    At which point I very politely pointed out that there are no such regulations but if they wanted I would be very happy to wear a mask.

    Chatted to a Hungarian friend yesterday, who said that Hungary is currently in a state of denial - masks are hardly worn, and at the (almost deserted) testing centre the assistant blithely advised her that if she did catch it she'd be fine if she popped a Vitamin D tablet. She believes that the number of cases there is likely to be seriously understated. By contrast, in Austria (where she normally lives), protective measures are still ubiquitous.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    Sturgeon letter.....I wonder if she posts one too, or just leaves it up on Twitter?

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1425780558173462535?s=20

    She might send a text message asking if Boris has heard the voicemail she left telling him about the letter that she put up on twitter...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,718
    As a long time subscriber I'm pleased to see SeanT surfacing in the Spectator every so often. I hope he makes Douglas Murray's acquaintance at the garden party.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2021

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

    Reminds me of one of the final scenes from BlackAdder II - ‘Let me assure you, Herr BlackAdder, that if you had inconwenienced me, you would not have a tongue…” etc

    For the record I didn’t know what Gaslighting was at the start of this convo, I know my place Boss!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Joint work completed by PHE and Cambridge University’s MRC Biostatistics Unit estimates that 84,600 deaths and 23,395,000 infections have been prevented as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 6 August.

    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1425804721932185610?s=21
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    Just had an email from the BBC headed 'David Cameron and the Missing Billions'. They certainly seem more comfortable putting the boot in to former rather than current Tory PMs.
  • isam said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

    Reminds me of one of the final scenes from BlackAdder II - ‘Let me assure you, Herr BlackAdder, that if you had inconwenienced me, you would not have a tongue…” etc

    For the record I didn’t know what Gaslighting was at the start of this convo, I know my place Boss!
    Surely it has something to do with "burners"?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    isam said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

    Reminds me of one of the final scenes from BlackAdder II - ‘Let me assure you, Herr BlackAdder, that if you had inconwenienced me, you would not have a tongue…” etc

    For the record I didn’t know what Gaslighting was at the start of this convo, I know my place Boss!
    We are all but mere tyros in the thrumming engine of knowledge that is PB :)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    isam said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

    Reminds me of one of the final scenes from BlackAdder II - ‘Let me assure you, Herr BlackAdder, that if you had inconwenienced me, you would not have a tongue…” etc

    For the record I didn’t know what Gaslighting was at the start of this convo, I know my place Boss!
    If you enjoy old movies the original 1940 British version is much superior to the stodgy MGM remake:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UYmtzaHwCKo

    Mercifully MGM failed in their attempt to have the original destroyed.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558
    O/T

    Tickets still available for the Lords test match.

    https://tickets.lords.org/en-GB/categories/all fixtures
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    Philip, you're overheating and overcomplicating things.

    I asked you a simple question viz: Have you followed my recommendation and taken a look at the links between Eng Nat and the far right?

    Honest answer (which I would have taken without demur and moved on) is -

    No, kinabalu, I haven't. And neither will I be because I have better things to do with my time, to wit holding down a serious full time job, plus being a devoted husband and involved father of 2 young daughters, and as if that weren't enough also posting for many hours each day on PB.com, the country's leading political punditry website, doing my level best to put a pronounced pro Brexit pro "Boris" Johnson slant on all the issues of the day.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    edited August 2021
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    This convo reminds me of 2013-14. I would talk of British nationalism as a thing and the chaps going around waving UJs, saying GSTQ and talking of how the blood of the Somme cried out for a No vote in indyref would look all aggrieved and deny any such thing and claim they were merely being patriotic Brits.

    The interesting question is whether the Tories themselves have shifted since then. The party has certainly changed a lot. And it seems indicative that a lot, perhaps a majority, of pro-Brexiters in that poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland before the Brexit vote said that they'd rather have Brexit than keep Scotland in the Union. Okay, the situation has changed since then, but it is prima facie evidence for a certain acceptance of English nationalism, or at least distinct identity, in the demographic that presently tends to vote Tory (plus, admittedly, RefUK etc).
    They correctly thought they can have both, the Union and Brexit.

    52% of Scots excluding don't knows want to stay in the UK even after Brexit has now occurred in the latest Scottish poll
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,073
    Poland heading the way of Hungary.

    A trenchant and resolutely correct assessment from Timothy Garton Ash - what is happening in Poland represents a major challenge to the EU. Let’s hope the Commission and other EU institutions finally wake up to confront this threat.
    https://twitter.com/MishaGlenny/status/1425736114464337926
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    Joint work completed by PHE and Cambridge University’s MRC Biostatistics Unit estimates that 84,600 deaths and 23,395,000 infections have been prevented as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 6 August.

    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1425804721932185610?s=21

    That is assuming everything is else stayed the same, which it would not have done with 24m extra infections in 8 months! It is impressive and re-confirms vaccines work, but I am not sure the numbers "mean" anything.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
    Thinking cap, Felix. And not for the first time.

    Plus I'm not a socialist, I'm a hard left social democrat.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,173
    edited August 2021

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

    Nonetheless that is a common usage today, regardless of the original film.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting(-ish) snippet.

    Just made an appointment to go to visit a business and they said "Don't forget we are still operating under Covid regulations so please remember to wear a mask."

    At which point I very politely pointed out that there are no such regulations but if they wanted I would be very happy to wear a mask.

    The 'regulations' could be their own internal regulations, could they not? I've visited several businesses in the past where their rules required me to wear items of PPE that were not mandated by law and I wouldn't have been allowed in had I refused.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    Philip, you're overheating and overcomplicating things.

    I asked you a simple question viz: Have you followed my recommendation and taken a look at the links between Eng Nat and the far right?

    Honest answer (which I would have taken without demur and moved on) is -

    No, kinabalu, I haven't. And neither will I be because I have better things to do with my time, to wit holding down a serious full time job, plus being a devoted husband and involved father of 2 young daughters, and as if that weren't enough also posting for many hours each day on PB.com, the country's leading political punditry website, doing my level best to put a pronounced pro Brexit pro "Boris" Johnson slant on all the issues of the day.
    Honest answer: No, kinabalu I haven't. Because there are no links. There is no English nationalist party that can be linked to anything whatsoever.

    You want to associate it with the condemnation of Labour being led by an antisemite. That's fine. You show me an English nationalist party that is linked to whatever and we can discuss it.

    But philosophies and parties are entirely different things. Corbyn being a vile antisemite doesn't tarnish left wing politics as a whole, it tarnished the Labour Party in particular when he led it. Now he doesn't lead Labour, and isn't a part of Labour anymore, its no longer part of the conversation.

    By trying to merge the two issues is gaslighting.
  • @kinabalu are there posters on here who you suspect are far right English nationalists?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a great word if used properly. Ie it's a word.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Aka gaslighting..
    Gaslighting is one of those weird up-it's-own-posterior words.

    Accusing somebody of gaslighting is nearly always an act of gaslighting.
    It's a term with a very specific (literary/dramatic/cinematic) origin.

    Those that immediately accuse others of gaslighting after being described as such remind me of those people that immediately counter being called racist by roaring 'but you're the real RACIST!'. Often the same folk 'n' all.

    Reminds me of one of the final scenes from BlackAdder II - ‘Let me assure you, Herr BlackAdder, that if you had inconwenienced me, you would not have a tongue…” etc

    For the record I didn’t know what Gaslighting was at the start of this convo, I know my place Boss!
    If you enjoy old movies the original 1940 British version is much superior to the stodgy MGM remake:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UYmtzaHwCKo

    Mercifully MGM failed in their attempt to have the original destroyed.
    Thanks, I do enjoy old movies. I can’t stand special effects and there tend to be fewer in the old ones, and more dialogue.

    Not an oldie but my next movie on the list to watch is ‘Never Look Away’ which I’m hoping is as good as ‘The Lives of Others’
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
    Thinking cap, Felix. And not for the first time.

    Plus I'm not a socialist, I'm a hard left social democrat.
    Very rich hard left social democrat.

    But look it really doesn't matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Probably not

    I wonder what happened to get my post in reply to you last night deleted. That was odd wasn’t it?
    Very. Do you have a theory?

    All I can think of is the Russians came in and grabbed it for some reason. Bit of a worry if so.
    I think they’re trying to make me think I’m losing my mind! If you hadn’t replied they might have succeeded!! I was re-reading the thread over & over thinking ‘I’m sure I wrote back to him’
    Yes, if there was a nefarious plan I ruined it. That feels good.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    After speculation that Russia is fiddling its daily figures so they don’t show a number above 800, today they’ve reported 808 deaths.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting(-ish) snippet.

    Just made an appointment to go to visit a business and they said "Don't forget we are still operating under Covid regulations so please remember to wear a mask."

    At which point I very politely pointed out that there are no such regulations but if they wanted I would be very happy to wear a mask.

    The 'regulations' could be their own internal regulations, could they not? I've visited several businesses in the past where their rules required me to wear items of PPE that were not mandated by law and I wouldn't have been allowed in had I refused.
    It is not the ordinary regulations of this type of business. It could of course be their internal regulations but the words were "we are still operating under the Covid regulations" which suggests to me an appeal to a higher authority. They have decided to act as though the regulations were still in force.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    After speculation that Russia is fiddling its daily figures so they don’t show a number above 800, today they’ve reported 808 deaths.

    Oops - someone's for the gulag!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    @kinabalu are there posters on here who you suspect are far right English nationalists?

    Not particularly, no. Although there are a couple on 'watch'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    This convo reminds me of 2013-14. I would talk of British nationalism as a thing and the chaps going around waving UJs, saying GSTQ and talking of how the blood of the Somme cried out for a No vote in indyref would look all aggrieved and deny any such thing and claim they were merely being patriotic Brits.

    The interesting question is whether the Tories themselves have shifted since then. The party has certainly changed a lot. And it seems indicative that a lot, perhaps a majority, of pro-Brexiters in that poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland before the Brexit vote said that they'd rather have Brexit than keep Scotland in the Union. Okay, the situation has changed since then, but it is prima facie evidence for a certain acceptance of English nationalism, or at least distinct identity, in the demographic that presently tends to vote Tory (plus, admittedly, RefUK etc).
    They correctly thought they can have both, the Union and Brexit.

    52% of Scots excluding don't knows want to stay in the UK even after Brexit has now occurred in the latest Scottish poll
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
    40% of Scots in the same poll would also be less likely to support independence than now if it mean joining the Euro
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/support-independence-drops-significantly-scotland-set-join-euro/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    Joint work completed by PHE and Cambridge University’s MRC Biostatistics Unit estimates that 84,600 deaths and 23,395,000 infections have been prevented as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 6 August.

    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1425804721932185610?s=21

    Did they report on how many caused by Bozo being a dithering buffoon?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2021

    Joint work completed by PHE and Cambridge University’s MRC Biostatistics Unit estimates that 84,600 deaths and 23,395,000 infections have been prevented as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 6 August.

    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1425804721932185610?s=21

    That is assuming everything is else stayed the same, which it would not have done with 24m extra infections in 8 months! It is impressive and re-confirms vaccines work, but I am not sure the numbers "mean" anything.
    Isn't it true that doubly vaccinated people can both get infected by covid and pass on covid to other vaccinated and unvaccinated people?

    If that is the case I don't see how you can arrive at a reliable figure for infections prevented by covid vaccination....?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited August 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting(-ish) snippet.

    Just made an appointment to go to visit a business and they said "Don't forget we are still operating under Covid regulations so please remember to wear a mask."

    At which point I very politely pointed out that there are no such regulations but if they wanted I would be very happy to wear a mask.

    The 'regulations' could be their own internal regulations, could they not? I've visited several businesses in the past where their rules required me to wear items of PPE that were not mandated by law and I wouldn't have been allowed in had I refused.
    It is not the ordinary regulations of this type of business. It could of course be their internal regulations but the words were "we are still operating under the Covid regulations" which suggests to me an appeal to a higher authority. They have decided to act as though the regulations were still in force.
    The 'the' does change the implied meaning, I agree ('the' was missing from your original quote). 'regulations' could be internal or external. 'our regulations' is unambiguous. 'the regulations' does indeed sound like the (now nonexistent) national regulations.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Nigelb said:

    Poland heading the way of Hungary.

    A trenchant and resolutely correct assessment from Timothy Garton Ash - what is happening in Poland represents a major challenge to the EU. Let’s hope the Commission and other EU institutions finally wake up to confront this threat.
    https://twitter.com/MishaGlenny/status/1425736114464337926

    Hope is all we can do, since we have given up the influence we had.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
    Thinking cap, Felix. And not for the first time.

    Plus I'm not a socialist, I'm a hard left social democrat.
    Very rich hard left social democrat.

    But look it really doesn't matter.
    Correct. I'm not imo "very rich" but it doesn't matter for these purposes. Political discourse is utterly corrupted otherwise. Invokig the personal finances of a person on the left is a classic way in which the right seek to police who can validly be on the left. Reducing the number to as close to zero as possible is the aim. It's bollox. I have no time for it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    felix said:


    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)

    via @YouGov


    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)

    via @SavantaComRes

    The polls are all over the place
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Interesting(-ish) snippet.

    Just made an appointment to go to visit a business and they said "Don't forget we are still operating under Covid regulations so please remember to wear a mask."

    At which point I very politely pointed out that there are no such regulations but if they wanted I would be very happy to wear a mask.

    The 'regulations' could be their own internal regulations, could they not? I've visited several businesses in the past where their rules required me to wear items of PPE that were not mandated by law and I wouldn't have been allowed in had I refused.
    It is not the ordinary regulations of this type of business. It could of course be their internal regulations but the words were "we are still operating under the Covid regulations" which suggests to me an appeal to a higher authority. They have decided to act as though the regulations were still in force.
    The 'the' does change the implied meaning, I agree ('the' was missing from your original quote). 'regulations' could be internal or external. 'our regulations' is unambiguous. 'the regulations' does indeed sound like the (now nonexistent) national regulations.
    It does indeed but as I am a dyed in the wool free market capitalist and they are a private enterprise requiring certain measures from their clientele I will happily wear a mask.

    I do wonder when or if the habit will abate.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2021
    Kinabalu if you wish to stop gaslighting for a moment, trying to make people think they're crazy by the way you keep muddling up philosophies and parties - in your eyes did Corbyn being a vile antisemite allowing antisemitic abuse to fester in the Labour Party tarnish all left wingers, even those not in the Labour Party? Or did it only tarnish the institution of the Labour Party that was led by him at the time?

    Since Luciana Berger is a leftwinger who quit the party over Corbyn's antisemitism would you say "Corbyn = left = antisemite, Luciana Berger = left, therefore Luciana Berger is tarnished with antisemitism too"? Nobody sane would do that so your attempting to do so, while implying others who don't play along with your fictions are crazy, is purely gaslighting.

    If you want a comparison to Labour being attacked for being led by an antisemite then pick another party that in your eyes is "EngNat" and "far right" and make the comparison. Otherwise the comparison is nul and void, since it doesn't exist and your pretensions to make it real while implying others are crazy is entirely gaslighting.
  • Nigelb said:

    Poland heading the way of Hungary.

    A trenchant and resolutely correct assessment from Timothy Garton Ash - what is happening in Poland represents a major challenge to the EU. Let’s hope the Commission and other EU institutions finally wake up to confront this threat.
    https://twitter.com/MishaGlenny/status/1425736114464337926

    Hope is all we can do, since we have given up the influence we had.
    And if we'd remained then what "influence" would we have had?

    And why should Poland and Hungary have "influence" over our laws?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    This convo reminds me of 2013-14. I would talk of British nationalism as a thing and the chaps going around waving UJs, saying GSTQ and talking of how the blood of the Somme cried out for a No vote in indyref would look all aggrieved and deny any such thing and claim they were merely being patriotic Brits.

    The interesting question is whether the Tories themselves have shifted since then. The party has certainly changed a lot. And it seems indicative that a lot, perhaps a majority, of pro-Brexiters in that poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland before the Brexit vote said that they'd rather have Brexit than keep Scotland in the Union. Okay, the situation has changed since then, but it is prima facie evidence for a certain acceptance of English nationalism, or at least distinct identity, in the demographic that presently tends to vote Tory (plus, admittedly, RefUK etc).
    They correctly thought they can have both, the Union and Brexit.

    52% of Scots excluding don't knows want to stay in the UK even after Brexit has now occurred in the latest Scottish poll
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
    40% of Scots in the same poll would also be less likely to support independence than now if it mean joining the Euro
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/support-independence-drops-significantly-scotland-set-join-euro/
    Is there a word for endlessly guddling about in the entrails of polls to persuade oneself of a proposition while running screeching from an actual vote on that proposition? Perhaps the Germans have something...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
    Thinking cap, Felix. And not for the first time.

    Plus I'm not a socialist, I'm a hard left social democrat.
    Very rich hard left social democrat.

    But look it really doesn't matter.
    Correct. I'm not imo "very rich" but it doesn't matter for these purposes. Political discourse is utterly corrupted otherwise. Invokig the personal finances of a person on the left is a classic way in which the right seek to police who can validly be on the left. Reducing the number to as close to zero as possible is the aim. It's bollox. I have no time for it.
    Neither did Polly but it has relevance.

    You want a more equal society (huzzah) but are happy to benefit from society's quirks (your hard work in this case to get a job not as a hospital porter, but as a [insert your previous list of chartered accountant, bond trader, blah, blah]). As such you are benefiting from an unequal society while advocating an equal one.

    Should you give up all your wealth?

    Well, yes. Yes you should. Otherwise you undermine your position and lay yourself open to the charge of hypocrisy and do as I say not as I do-ism.

    Plenty of charities, tax, HMRC, you name it as willing recipients. Why this very morning Ben Wadham moved me to set up a standing order for the Veterans Foundation. Perhaps a scroll through justgiving might be your next move.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GDz21uUhBU
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited August 2021

    Joint work completed by PHE and Cambridge University’s MRC Biostatistics Unit estimates that 84,600 deaths and 23,395,000 infections have been prevented as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 6 August.

    https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1425804721932185610?s=21

    That is assuming everything is else stayed the same, which it would not have done with 24m extra infections in 8 months! It is impressive and re-confirms vaccines work, but I am not sure the numbers "mean" anything.
    Isn't it true that doubly vaccinated people can both get infected by covid and pass on covid to other vaccinated and unvaccinated people?

    If that is the case I don't see how you can arrive at a reliable figure for infections prevented by covid vaccination....?
    You compare infections (via random testing) in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations to determine vaccine efficacy. You can infer reduced transmission by looking at infection rates in household contacts of vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Those are both set out in the report. Having estimated the effects of vaccination on infection and transmission, you multiple up by the number of vaccinations.

    The reliability of the figure depends on the reliability of the underlying work. There's no reason to think it's unreliable within the assessed uncertainties, which are in the report and the image in the tweet.

    Edit: It's not easy, as you correctly suggest. Some very clever people called scientists train for years to be able to do this kind of stuff. And they - and other scientists - question the findings and look for different/better ways of getting the estimates to see how robust they are.
  • kinabalu said:

    @kinabalu are there posters on here who you suspect are far right English nationalists?

    Not particularly, no. Although there are a couple on 'watch'.
    So lets get this straight: You say there are no English nationalist far right parties. You also say there are no English nationalist far right posters on here.

    But still you wish to keep up the pretension that there is a connection between them? While also making comparisons with the attacks against the Labour Party in particular, for the Labour Party in particular being led by an antisemitic leader, who was allowing antisemitism to fester within the party?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    Philip, you're overheating and overcomplicating things.

    I asked you a simple question viz: Have you followed my recommendation and taken a look at the links between Eng Nat and the far right?

    Honest answer (which I would have taken without demur and moved on) is -

    No, kinabalu, I haven't. And neither will I be because I have better things to do with my time, to wit holding down a serious full time job, plus being a devoted husband and involved father of 2 young daughters, and as if that weren't enough also posting for many hours each day on PB.com, the country's leading political punditry website, doing my level best to put a pronounced pro Brexit pro "Boris" Johnson slant on all the issues of the day.
    Honest answer: No, kinabalu I haven't. Because there are no links. There is no English nationalist party that can be linked to anything whatsoever.

    You want to associate it with the condemnation of Labour being led by an antisemite. That's fine. You show me an English nationalist party that is linked to whatever and we can discuss it.

    But philosophies and parties are entirely different things. Corbyn being a vile antisemite doesn't tarnish left wing politics as a whole, it tarnished the Labour Party in particular when he led it. Now he doesn't lead Labour, and isn't a part of Labour anymore, its no longer part of the conversation.

    By trying to merge the two issues is gaslighting.
    Time to move on, I think. The irreducible truth here is that you haven't as yet looked into the links between strident Eng Nat sentiment and the far right. Once you have, even if you fail to turn up any, I'll be all ears and we can develop this topic. I hope we can since it's quite important.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    After speculation that Russia is fiddling its daily figures so they don’t show a number above 800, today they’ve reported 808 deaths.

    They are using their Covid numbers instead of a Numbers Station to send messages to their agents inside the UK Embassy in Berlin.

    Second agent has just been activated...
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    Philip, you're overheating and overcomplicating things.

    I asked you a simple question viz: Have you followed my recommendation and taken a look at the links between Eng Nat and the far right?

    Honest answer (which I would have taken without demur and moved on) is -

    No, kinabalu, I haven't. And neither will I be because I have better things to do with my time, to wit holding down a serious full time job, plus being a devoted husband and involved father of 2 young daughters, and as if that weren't enough also posting for many hours each day on PB.com, the country's leading political punditry website, doing my level best to put a pronounced pro Brexit pro "Boris" Johnson slant on all the issues of the day.
    Honest answer: No, kinabalu I haven't. Because there are no links. There is no English nationalist party that can be linked to anything whatsoever.

    You want to associate it with the condemnation of Labour being led by an antisemite. That's fine. You show me an English nationalist party that is linked to whatever and we can discuss it.

    But philosophies and parties are entirely different things. Corbyn being a vile antisemite doesn't tarnish left wing politics as a whole, it tarnished the Labour Party in particular when he led it. Now he doesn't lead Labour, and isn't a part of Labour anymore, its no longer part of the conversation.

    By trying to merge the two issues is gaslighting.
    Time to move on, I think. The irreducible truth here is that you haven't as yet looked into the links between strident Eng Nat sentiment and the far right. Once you have, even if you fail to turn up any, I'll be all ears and we can develop this topic. I hope we can since it's quite important.
    You look at invisible pink unicorns first and I'll look at your fictions.

    I can't look at that which does not exist. You brought up Corbyn, Corbyn was an issue with the Labour Party. Very specific, could specifically be looked at. If you want to bring up a Corbyn-equivalent, a Party led by a member of the far right or something like that, then we can look into that. Just as we could look into the Labour Party. Because the Labour Party exists, your inventions do not.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    There are 6 local by-elections today. 3 are in Scotland so beware about predictions - but there are 2 Ind defences in Highland and Lab in North Ayrshire. In England there a Lab defence in Tower Hamlets, a Con defence in East Suffolk, and a LD defence in South Lakeland.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,913
    On Topic. Most people would recognise that the Pandemic was unforeseen when the manifesto was written and so giving an 8% rise to pensioners (including me) would not be prudent. Rishi could therefore say "Have the 2.5% just for this year. Triple Lock stays for future years."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    “Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory at least as credible as natural origins explanation”

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/16/politics/biden-intel-review-covid-origins/index.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829
    glw said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Starmer's not had a good summer. I don't particularly mind him, but I'm starting to think he might also be a bit rubbish.
    I just read he's been talking about the doomed alpaca. What a waste of time. Let the shadow minister for rural affairs handle it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159
    edited August 2021
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
    Thinking cap, Felix. And not for the first time.

    Plus I'm not a socialist, I'm a hard left social democrat.
    Very rich hard left social democrat.

    But look it really doesn't matter.
    Correct. I'm not imo "very rich" but it doesn't matter for these purposes. Political discourse is utterly corrupted otherwise. Invokig the personal finances of a person on the left is a classic way in which the right seek to police who can validly be on the left. Reducing the number to as close to zero as possible is the aim. It's bollox. I have no time for it.
    Neither did Polly but it has relevance.

    You want a more equal society (huzzah) but are happy to benefit from society's quirks (your hard work in this case to get a job not as a hospital porter, but as a [insert your previous list of chartered accountant, bond trader, blah, blah]). As such you are benefiting from an unequal society while advocating an equal one.

    Should you give up all your wealth?

    Well, yes. Yes you should. Otherwise you undermine your position and lay yourself open to the charge of hypocrisy and do as I say not as I do-ism.

    Plenty of charities, tax, HMRC, you name it as willing recipients. Why this very morning Ben Wadham moved me to set up a standing order for the Veterans Foundation. Perhaps a scroll through justgiving might be your next move.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GDz21uUhBU
    Hmm, let's see now, should I give away all my money so as to improve my standing with right wingers on the internet?

    You've put me in a quandary here, damn you.
  • OK @kinabalu I have looked into and done a statistical analysis of English nationalist sentiment and the far right.

    I have taken the UK's best political blog as a point of reference. There are unabashed English nationalists on this website that post here.

    You have in your own judgement determined that there are not any English nationalist far right posters on here.

    Therefore by a rigorous statistical analysis, there is an r^2 value of 0 correlating English nationalism with the far right, as per this website and your own opinion.

    Case closed.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Competely off-topic, but worrying story of malware being used by the Modi regime to plant incriminating evidence on pesky human rights lawyers' computers, and then locking them up for years using terrorist legislation. Actually, typical of the Modi regime - just surprising in its sophistication if true, they usually silence critics with cruder methods.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/bhima-koregaon-case-india-conspiracy-modi
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    As some of you may know, following my granddaughter's excellent A level results she starts at Leeds University in September on a 5 year course in Japanese and Italian language and culture.

    However, this morning Leeds University are offering some students (my granddaughter is not affected) £10,000 and free accommodation to defer their courses

    As a matter of interest how are these grants funded

    BBC News - University of Leeds students offered £10k and free housing to defer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-58176877

    Congrats to her. That's a long stint, 5 years, so I hope she enjoys it. My brother is a Prof at Leeds Uni, btw, but not on the languages side of things.
    Yes, good for her. Leeds feels an amazing place to be at the minute. Cutting edge, but not too big to be impersonal.
    Good timing on the Uni front too - should be more trad student life and less digital from next year onwards. It's all been a bit sad apparently during the pandemic. And no fees refund of course.
    Yes the whole student thing will have been, sadly, watered down somewhat. I do feel really sorry for young people throughout this whole thing, uni students or not. If I'd missed being able to go out and get plastered and/or laid for an 18 month period anywhere between being 17 and 25-ish, life would have been much more miserable. Particularly the 18-21 years.

    There was a bit of a kerfuffle about the students hanging out in the studenty areas of Leeds, no social distancing all that jazz, and those areas did have huge covid numbers, but I don't blame them. I'd've done exactly the same at their age.

    Face-to-face teaching will be better too!
    I'm ashamed to say that my uni time was pretty much 0% doing a degree and 100% "exploring my new status as a young adult". I'd go for more of a 50/50, given my time again, but of course that's by definition a nonsense. Given my time again I'd do exactly the same.
    Completely justifying a slimmed down 2 year degree - why on earth they should be subsidised piss-ups at the expense of w/c taxpayers is utterly beyond me.
    So let's get the working class in there in size and break down the citadel. Fund it from (inter alia) higher rate and wealth tax. Replace the Politics of Envy with that of Aspiration.
    Either way - 'finding yourself' at taxpayers' expense by going on the piss for 3 years is a waste of dosh. The irony of your last sentence coming from a socialist is quite breathtaking.
    Thinking cap, Felix. And not for the first time.

    Plus I'm not a socialist, I'm a hard left social democrat.
    Very rich hard left social democrat.

    But look it really doesn't matter.
    Correct. I'm not imo "very rich" but it doesn't matter for these purposes. Political discourse is utterly corrupted otherwise. Invokig the personal finances of a person on the left is a classic way in which the right seek to police who can validly be on the left. Reducing the number to as close to zero as possible is the aim. It's bollox. I have no time for it.
    Neither did Polly but it has relevance.

    You want a more equal society (huzzah) but are happy to benefit from society's quirks (your hard work in this case to get a job not as a hospital porter, but as a [insert your previous list of chartered accountant, bond trader, blah, blah]). As such you are benefiting from an unequal society while advocating an equal one.

    Should you give up all your wealth?

    Well, yes. Yes you should. Otherwise you undermine your position and lay yourself open to the charge of hypocrisy and do as I say not as I do-ism.

    Plenty of charities, tax, HMRC, you name it as willing recipients. Why this very morning Ben Wadham moved me to set up a standing order for the Veterans Foundation. Perhaps a scroll through justgiving might be your next move.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GDz21uUhBU
    Hmm, let's see now, should I give away all my money so as to improve my standing with right wingers on the internet?

    You've put me in a quandary here, damn you.
    Nah you should give away all your money so as to improve your standing with left wingers in the UK.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    Kinabalu if you wish to stop gaslighting for a moment, trying to make people think they're crazy by the way you keep muddling up philosophies and parties - in your eyes did Corbyn being a vile antisemite allowing antisemitic abuse to fester in the Labour Party tarnish all left wingers, even those not in the Labour Party? Or did it only tarnish the institution of the Labour Party that was led by him at the time?

    Since Luciana Berger is a leftwinger who quit the party over Corbyn's antisemitism would you say "Corbyn = left = antisemite, Luciana Berger = left, therefore Luciana Berger is tarnished with antisemitism too"? Nobody sane would do that so your attempting to do so, while implying others who don't play along with your fictions are crazy, is purely gaslighting.

    If you want a comparison to Labour being attacked for being led by an antisemite then pick another party that in your eyes is "EngNat" and "far right" and make the comparison. Otherwise the comparison is nul and void, since it doesn't exist and your pretensions to make it real while implying others are crazy is entirely gaslighting.

    We've moved on. There was little choice. TBC when you've taken a look at what needs to be looked at. Just a quick look will do. No need to go down the hole on it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    Speaking of gaslighting, I'm an inveterate player of Words with Friends (though it's pretty much in the filling in the time I have left to me category). I've just realised that more than half my opponents are identikit - shortish woman's name followed by initial, profile pic of dog or cat. How can I have been so unobservant?! They actually have a weekly play against bots feature but that's obviously not enough for them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558

    Speaking of gaslighting, I'm an inveterate player of Words with Friends (though it's pretty much in the filling in the time I have left to me category). I've just realised that more than half my opponents are identikit - shortish woman's name followed by initial, profile pic of dog or cat. How can I have been so unobservant?! They actually have a weekly play against bots feature but that's obviously not enough for them.

    I'm not sure what this new meaning of "gaslighting" is. For me, it still mainly means a light that uses gas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
    Your naivety is astonishing.

    What the heck has the continent of Europe got to do with being in the European Union?

    Should those in Alberta or Quebec or Jalisco be considered Americans and join the United States of America?

    That's got nothing to do with England, or EDL or anything else. If you're so childish and puerile as you consider that being in a continent means you must be part of a union then that's just farcical.

    Anyway the Tory Party has not abandoned so many that voted for it for decades. The Tory Party got more voters than it has in decades. So yes I absolutely 100% think that's right and anyone so undemocratic as to like you equate Brexit with "EDL" or English nationalism absolutely should be told to take a cold shower until they stop being so silly.
    Absolutely not a personal inference about you but did you ever take my recommendation and check out the links between Eng Nat and the far right?
    There are no links.

    Since I can't examine inside your head for what you fictionalise, I can't do much more than that.
    You've looked into it and found that there are no links? I find this hard to believe. I think you haven't looked into it.
    No, there are no links to look into.

    That's like me saying to look into the links between ASFsdnbvjisfgadf and GFDGHSUIGSFcassd. Are you going to do that? Or are you going to dismiss it as gibberish?
    That's a rather silly response. But, ok, if you want to stay in blissful ignorance about the seamy end of Eng Nat, pretend it's not there, that's your prerogative. I can't force you to take a look at it. I'm a bit surprised you'd take the approach of the far left to their links with antisemitism, but it's a funny old world sometimes.
    I have an issue with the links between the then leader of the Labour Party and antisemitism. Or others high up in the Labour Party and antisemitism.

    Since there is no English National Party, there by default can not be any such links between them and the far right because the first part of your fictional link does not exist.

    Things that don't exist, can't be linked to other things. In order to be linked, it must first actually exist.
    Yes, I'm talking about Eng Nat political activism rather than any particular party.
    That's meaningless gibberish.

    There's no mainstream Eng Nat political activism, it is currently a fringe idea. I would like the Tories to embrace it and I advocate it, but its currently on the fringes and so isn't associated with any party.

    The issue with antisemitism is not with fringe activisim that doesn't engage with any party, it isn't that there were fringe leftwingers some of whom were racist - there is sadly a racist minority in all philosophies - it was when the Labour Party became institutionally infested with and led by antisemites.

    Your trying to conflate a philosophy with a party being led by an outright antisemite is just pure distractionism. If a mainstream party embraces Eng Nat activism then we would be able to judge that party as and when it does by how it acts.
    There's no need to panic and try to reframe what I'm saying so as to be able to call it gibberish.

    Yes, ardent Eng Nat is fringe not mainstream. And thank heavens for this since - as I say - it's strongly correlated to the sort of hard and reactionary right wing politics that nobody wishes to see except for its proponents.

    Of course you would know all this if you were to look into it.
    No you are making up lies because they suit your agenda.

    It is not correlated to anything, since it isn't at the fore. Only when it comes to the fore can you see what it is associated with.
    This convo reminds me of 2013-14. I would talk of British nationalism as a thing and the chaps going around waving UJs, saying GSTQ and talking of how the blood of the Somme cried out for a No vote in indyref would look all aggrieved and deny any such thing and claim they were merely being patriotic Brits.

    The interesting question is whether the Tories themselves have shifted since then. The party has certainly changed a lot. And it seems indicative that a lot, perhaps a majority, of pro-Brexiters in that poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland before the Brexit vote said that they'd rather have Brexit than keep Scotland in the Union. Okay, the situation has changed since then, but it is prima facie evidence for a certain acceptance of English nationalism, or at least distinct identity, in the demographic that presently tends to vote Tory (plus, admittedly, RefUK etc).
    They correctly thought they can have both, the Union and Brexit.

    52% of Scots excluding don't knows want to stay in the UK even after Brexit has now occurred in the latest Scottish poll
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
    40% of Scots in the same poll would also be less likely to support independence than now if it mean joining the Euro
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/support-independence-drops-significantly-scotland-set-join-euro/
    Is there a word for endlessly guddling about in the entrails of polls to persuade oneself of a proposition while running screeching from an actual vote on that proposition? Perhaps the Germans have something...
    The once in a generation 2014 vote must be respected, the fact most Scots still oppose independence as they did then confirms there has been no change requiring a vote before a generation has elapsed
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,558
    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 8% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-2)
    REFUK: 3% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 29 Jul


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-2)

    via @SavantaComRes
    , 06 - 08 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 01 Aug

    33% is what Labour polled at the last general election.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Andy_JS said:

    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 8% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-2)
    REFUK: 3% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 29 Jul


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-2)

    via @SavantaComRes
    , 06 - 08 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 01 Aug

    33% is what Labour polled at the last general election.
    And will probably be what they get at the next General Election!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: Boris Johnson is struggling to break through with his flagship “levelling up” agenda with 55 per cent of the public saying the Government is doing a bad job on this policy, reveals an @IpsosMORI poll for @EveningStandard https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-poll-levelling-up-ipsos-mori-b950314.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1425786745342341123/photo/1

    Up 4 from last month, and the VI lead is 11 with Boris’s ratings improving and Sir Keir’s falling

    I knew the headline would be the worst if it!

    The all important ‘Satisfaction’ numbers are Boris 41 Sir Keir 27

    “Key findings in the poll show:

    * The Conservatives maintain a strong lead over Labour, on 41 per cent (up one percentage point on July) compared to 30 per cent (down one percentage point).

    * Mr Johnson still has a negative net satisfaction rating, at -11, with 41 per cent satisfied and 52 per cent dissatisfied, though this is a slight improvement from July’s -16 net rating.

    * Sir Keir Starmer has seen his net satisfaction drop marginally, from -23 to -26, driven by the proportion dissatisfied rising from 50 per cent to 53 per cent.”
    Con 41
    Lab 30

    The first double digit Tory lead for a month
    Dead cat bounce?
    Starmer's not had a good summer. I don't particularly mind him, but I'm starting to think he might also be a bit rubbish.
    I just read he's been talking about the doomed alpaca. What a waste of time. Let the shadow minister for rural affairs handle it.
    ‘On a not irregular basis’ is pure KeirSpeak, why not just say ‘on a regular basis’?

    ‘When asked if the Government's stance is right, he continued: "I think there's no alternative sadly. I do actually understand why emotions are so high as they would be with farmers as well who on a not irregular basis have to lose animals that are very valuable to them." ‘

    There are probably loads of examples of Boris or Farage speaking this way, so maybe I just noticed it because I have the down on Sir Keir
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Andy_JS said:

    Speaking of gaslighting, I'm an inveterate player of Words with Friends (though it's pretty much in the filling in the time I have left to me category). I've just realised that more than half my opponents are identikit - shortish woman's name followed by initial, profile pic of dog or cat. How can I have been so unobservant?! They actually have a weekly play against bots feature but that's obviously not enough for them.

    I'm not sure what this new meaning of "gaslighting" is. For me, it still mainly means a light that uses gas.
    You mean in the Dick van Dyke sense.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Andy_JS said:

    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 8% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-2)
    REFUK: 3% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 29 Jul


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-2)

    via @SavantaComRes
    , 06 - 08 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 01 Aug

    33% is what Labour polled at the last general election.
    As far as I can see the only shift since 2019 is a small movement from Tory to Green.

    In reality some LDs and a few Tories going Labour and some Labour going Green
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Nigelb said:

    Poland heading the way of Hungary.

    A trenchant and resolutely correct assessment from Timothy Garton Ash - what is happening in Poland represents a major challenge to the EU. Let’s hope the Commission and other EU institutions finally wake up to confront this threat.
    https://twitter.com/MishaGlenny/status/1425736114464337926

    Hope is all we can do, since we have given up the influence we had.
    Surely the EU is not so fragile that it cannot deal with misbehaviour in its ranks without the UK? Presumably if the UK is concerned with what is happening in Poland or Hungary or anywhere else for that matter it can use it's diplomats as it always has.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:


    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)

    via @YouGov


    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)

    via @SavantaComRes

    The polls are all over the place
    Those 2 are all over the same place!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,159

    OK @kinabalu I have looked into and done a statistical analysis of English nationalist sentiment and the far right.

    I have taken the UK's best political blog as a point of reference. There are unabashed English nationalists on this website that post here.

    You have in your own judgement determined that there are not any English nationalist far right posters on here.

    Therefore by a rigorous statistical analysis, there is an r^2 value of 0 correlating English nationalism with the far right, as per this website and your own opinion.

    Case closed.

    That's a reasaonable first tack - to look at here. And it's not zero, not at all. There's a couple on 'Watch' as I said - loose use of couple as in 3 or 4 - and plus there's some unsavouries who've been banned in recent weeks. So I'd say this is enough to continue our investigation rather than any sort of excuse to shut it down. YOUR investigation, I mean, since I've already done it.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Andy_JS said:

    felix said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+2)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 8% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-2)
    REFUK: 3% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 05 - 06 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 29 Jul


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    1h
    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 4% (-2)

    via @SavantaComRes
    , 06 - 08 Aug
    Chgs. w/ 01 Aug

    33% is what Labour polled at the last general election.
    At this stage in the electoral cycle 33% is a terrible figure for Labour, but hey BJ is in serious trouble
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    slade said:

    There are 6 local by-elections today. 3 are in Scotland so beware about predictions - but there are 2 Ind defences in Highland and Lab in North Ayrshire. In England there a Lab defence in Tower Hamlets, a Con defence in East Suffolk, and a LD defence in South Lakeland.

    Thanks, Slade - always interested when you report results.
This discussion has been closed.