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Is Sunak going to give state pensioners an 8% increase? – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
  • Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    An 8% rise for pensioners, but zero for police and teachers, amongst others? No way is that justifiable, with harsh austerity on its way. It is obscene.

    Right here right now there are oceans of free money that can be printed out of the air and handed out to Tory friends donors and target voters. So it isn't "we can't afford" to give Pensioners 8% and a pay rise to the police, teachers, nurses etc etc. Its that the Tories won't.

    Straight out of the Dennis Healey manual of public finance. You know, the one which meant the IMF had to enter Britain and bail us out.

    I don't even think you were joking.
    Actually the IMF did not have to enter Britain and bail us out, even if it was a damn close run thing. And afterwards it turned out the Treasury beancounters had miscounted the beans and there were more left than they'd thought. But the bailout is now part of the British political lexicon.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Prince Andrew: Refusal to talk to Epstein investigators ‘straining relations between UK and America’

    … the lack of information-sharing had caused diplomatic strain, with US law enforcement and diplomats raising the matter with their British counterparts.

    The lack of cooperation now spans three years of reported attempts by the US authorities to gather facts from the royal who, in a statement from 2019, said he would be willing to help US law-enforcement with investigations. However, in January last year, Manhattan US attorney Geoffrey Berman said the country’s authorities had received “zero cooperation” from the prince…

    Of particular interest to the US authorities is how money transfers may be linked to the movement of young women and girls. The various interested bodies, including the FBI, believe these may offer insights into ongoing organised criminal operations.

    The authorities’ interests are understood to include multiple trips by the royal to Epstein’s Caribbean island, Little St James, as well as Florida and New York. Last year, prosecutors in the US Virgin Islands, which includes Little St James, alleged Mr Epstein abused hundreds of young women and girls up until 2018.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-andrew-america-epstein-probes-cooperation-b1900854.html?amp

    Given the US refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas tough. Biden is hardly doing a great deal to defend international security at the moment anyway nor has he or the Democrats in Congress ever been that interested in prioritising a UK trade deal either.

    Perhaps they could also look a bit more into Bill Clinton and Bill Gates' links to Epstein before lecturing us

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/18/photos-allegedly-show-bill-clinton-receiving-massage-from-jeffrey-epstein-accuser/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html
    Meanwhile, the US Department of Justice was in the High Court in London yesterday, trying again to get their hands on Assange.

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1425451412436172806
    I hope they do, actually.

    It was pretty outrageous that the judge said, in effect, ‘he’s guilty as fuck and should be handed over but because he keeps saying he might kill himself I won’t do it.’ What sort of message does that send?

    Leaving aside the fact that he’s a creep, a liar, a thief and by all accounts a pretty nasty piece of work.

    I must admit though I still find it ironic that he’s now spent longer under detention and is at far greater risk of going to the US to face trial than if he had gone to Sweden to be questioned, been charged, convicted, imprisoned and deported to Australia.

    Karma’s a bitch.
    Yes, I have really mixed feelings on this case.

    He did good work, but is personally an idiot. The extradition treaty we have with the USA is rediculously one-sided and it’s good to see a judge push back on it. The US justice system is terrible, and the sentence he might face is completely disproportionate - to the point where many people would genuinely consider martyring themselves in his situation.

    Yes, he’d be in less trouble now if he’d simply let the Swedish case play out.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
    Also, In 2017, i am not sure anybody had global pandemic meaning we were all locked in our homes for the best part of 18 months on their bingo card, when asked if they thought the triple lock was a good policy or not, and what would they do with their vote post such a pandemic if the government suspended it for a year or two.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. JohnL, he can, however, claim extenuating circumstances legitimately.

    So could Nick Clegg and after the following election, LibDem MPs could share a taxi to Westminster.
    The LDs reneged on a promise after a few months* (weeks?) with no material change in circumstances. The government would be reneging on a promise made before an unprecedented (in our lifetimes) event that also distorted the thing promised.

    The LDs also enacted effectively the reverse of their promise. The equivalent is Rishi announcing that this year pensions will decrease by the largest of inflation, 2.5% and increase in earnings.

    *promise originally made years before,bbut repeated during the campaign after the great financial crash
  • I made a promise to Mrs U we would be going to New Zealand for a month in 2020.... polling at the time suggested she would leave me if I instead spent that month at home working and not leaving the house even for a date night....
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. JohnL, disagree entirely. The financial crisis and recession preceded the General Election of 2010. No black swan occurred during that Parliament.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Funny how people look at papers thru diff eyes.

    Seen quite a few accounts think this paper is [Face screaming in fear].

    Whereas I see 60% efficacy against *infection* from delta and *97%* against severe disease (once adjusted) and think [Great!]
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.11.21261885v1

    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1425715709234057217?s=20
  • Heathener said:

    TSE makes a really good point about Rishi Sunak. He can't both go on being intensely popular AND fiscally responsible.

    The fact is that even with a surge of economic output public finance needs to tighten its belt. At the moment this Conservative Government resembles a wild leftwing Labour one when it comes to public spending.

    There's plenty of evidence that Sunak likes to preen himself for his fans although rather less cravenly than Boris Johnson. However, with Boris Johnson by instinct a reckless spendthrift, someone in Government is going to have to rein this in.

    I wonder if Rishi will try the same manoeuvre he used for International Aid.

    "Of course we could maintain the Triple Lock. It's just that I would have to raise taxes by £3 billion a year. Tell you what, let's have a vote on it..."

    Basically, make sure that everyone has to dip their hands in the blood, one way or another.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Has Scott posted about this yet?

    NEW: U.K. exports to the EU were above pre-Brexit levels for a second month in June, half a year after the country severed trade ties with the bloc

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/uk-trade-post-brexit-deal-eu/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,768
    Yet again my natural pessimism was that it would be the end of the year before we got back to pre COVID levels. Looks like it may be a quarter earlier.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited August 2021
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Prince Andrew: Refusal to talk to Epstein investigators ‘straining relations between UK and America’

    … the lack of information-sharing had caused diplomatic strain, with US law enforcement and diplomats raising the matter with their British counterparts.

    The lack of cooperation now spans three years of reported attempts by the US authorities to gather facts from the royal who, in a statement from 2019, said he would be willing to help US law-enforcement with investigations. However, in January last year, Manhattan US attorney Geoffrey Berman said the country’s authorities had received “zero cooperation” from the prince…

    Of particular interest to the US authorities is how money transfers may be linked to the movement of young women and girls. The various interested bodies, including the FBI, believe these may offer insights into ongoing organised criminal operations.

    The authorities’ interests are understood to include multiple trips by the royal to Epstein’s Caribbean island, Little St James, as well as Florida and New York. Last year, prosecutors in the US Virgin Islands, which includes Little St James, alleged Mr Epstein abused hundreds of young women and girls up until 2018.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-andrew-america-epstein-probes-cooperation-b1900854.html?amp

    Given the US refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas tough. Biden is hardly doing a great deal to defend international security at the moment anyway nor has he or the Democrats in Congress ever been that interested in prioritising a UK trade deal either.

    Perhaps they could also look a bit more into Bill Clinton and Bill Gates' links to Epstein before lecturing us

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/18/photos-allegedly-show-bill-clinton-receiving-massage-from-jeffrey-epstein-accuser/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html
    Meanwhile, the US Department of Justice was in the High Court in London yesterday, trying again to get their hands on Assange.

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1425451412436172806
    I hope they do, actually.

    It was pretty outrageous that the judge said, in effect, ‘he’s guilty as fuck and should be handed over but because he keeps saying he might kill himself I won’t do it.’ What sort of message does that send?

    Leaving aside the fact that he’s a creep, a liar, a thief and by all accounts a pretty nasty piece of work.

    I must admit though I still find it ironic that he’s now spent longer under detention and is at far greater risk of going to the US to face trial than if he had gone to Sweden to be questioned, been charged, convicted, imprisoned and deported to Australia.

    Karma’s a bitch.
    Yes, I have really mixed feelings on this case.

    He did good work, but is personally an idiot. The extradition treaty we have with the USA is rediculously one-sided and it’s good to see a judge push back on it. The US justice system is terrible, and the sentence he might face is completely disproportionate - to the point where many people would genuinely consider martyring themselves in his situation.

    Yes, he’d be in less trouble now if he’d simply let the Swedish case play out.
    What put me off him was the claim that the Swedish case was ‘politically motivated.’ Which was clearly complete bollocks. No way would even people as useless as the US State Department have formulated something so unlikely to achieve their ends as an act of spite.

    I’m also not sure about this ‘good work’ claim. Yes, he may have exposed some things that needed exposing but he also put thousands of people doing vital work in very dangerous situations at risk, for as far as can be judged no reason other than he wanted to feel important. Which is unacceptable.

    Finally, his claims about press freedom don’t really stand up given his links to Russia and Ecuador.

    Everything with Assange seems to be for his personal gratification and glorification. Not to further the cause of freedom.

    ETA - AIUI the US have also said he can serve any sentence he gets in Australia. So he would be unlikely to face more than 3-4 years in prison in practice.
  • Has Scott posted about this yet?

    NEW: U.K. exports to the EU were above pre-Brexit levels for a second month in June, half a year after the country severed trade ties with the bloc

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/uk-trade-post-brexit-deal-eu/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit

    That is very good news
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Scottish ferries update: The interim CEO brought in to manage the shipyard after it was nationalised, was expected to be there for a couple of months at £2,500 a day. He’s still there two years and £1.3m later… Nice work if you can get it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/08/11/boss-shipyard-nationalised-nicola-sturgeon-paid-2500-day/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2021

    Funny how people look at papers thru diff eyes.

    Seen quite a few accounts think this paper is [Face screaming in fear].

    Whereas I see 60% efficacy against *infection* from delta and *97%* against severe disease (once adjusted) and think [Great!]
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.11.21261885v1

    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1425715709234057217?s=20

    If you have bought into the zero covid and massively overstated level of long covid (in terms of as a debilitating condition) narrative of course you will be shit scared. Also as pointed in the thread, many of those data set is 60% against all infection including asymptotic.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,768

    Has Scott posted about this yet?

    NEW: U.K. exports to the EU were above pre-Brexit levels for a second month in June, half a year after the country severed trade ties with the bloc

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/uk-trade-post-brexit-deal-eu/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit

    Perhaps he is still trying to process that exports of live animals, dairy and farm products were 14% higher in June than a year earlier.

    The genuinely troubling thing about those statistics is that trade deficit with the EU remains unacceptably large.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,768
    Sandpit said:

    Scottish ferries update: The interim CEO brought in to manage the shipyard after it was nationalised, was expected to be there for a couple of months at £2,500 a day. He’s still there two years and £1.3m later… Nice work if you can get it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/08/11/boss-shipyard-nationalised-nicola-sturgeon-paid-2500-day/

    FFS. These ferries are starting to make the Parliament building and the trams look absolute bargains.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    The chancellor’s take: “Today’s figures show that our economy is on the mend”.

    Between April and June GDP increased 4.8% as restrictions lifted but it was still 4.4% below (Q4 2019) level.

    Bank of England thinks economy will return to pre-crisis size by the end of this year.


    https://twitter.com/ITVJoel/status/1425704829180071936/photo/1


    "And I will now cut the amount by which pensions would rise based on these figures..."
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    Has Scott posted about this yet?

    NEW: U.K. exports to the EU were above pre-Brexit levels for a second month in June, half a year after the country severed trade ties with the bloc

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/uk-trade-post-brexit-deal-eu/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit

    That is very good news
    Not for Scott XP it isnt......
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    DavidL said:

    FFS. These ferries are starting to make the Parliament building and the trams look absolute bargains.

    Don't forget Covid passports...

    French restaurants are turning away Scottish tourists because they fail to recognise Scotland’s Covid vaccination certificates, says a former MSP.

    Cara Hilton, who works for the food bank charity The Trussell Trust, said NHS Scotland’s proof of vaccine documents were being rejected because — unlike the English and Welsh versions — they do not contain a pixellated QR code.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-scotland-non-for-scottish-vaccine-proof-but-oui-for-english-and-welsh-qx38ls8jc
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
    There needs to be fairness with respect to what was promised.

    We can all see that the intention was to keep pensioners up with inflation or earnings, whichever higher (the fixed - 2.5%? - increase is a bit more arbitrary, but presumably a supposedly afforable escalator to ensure pensions increase long term). What's happening this year is clearly a distortion. Ignoring earnings is not fair either. The obvious thing seems to be to look at earnings this year compared to 2019, work out the equivalent annual change (allowing for compounding) and then apply that this year and backdated last year. So if it turns out that the equivalent annual figure was 3% (probably not, but if it was) then pensioners get 3% this year (or inflation, if higher) and a backdated 3% on last year too (well, the difference between that and what they actually got).

    It will annoy some, but among my limited contacts in pensioner age groups, that would be seen as acceptable and fair. Who, realistically, is going to attack on this. Starmer is going to champion 8% for pensioners while younger working people are still a bit screwed? Really? The LDs? They can be reminded - if anyone is even listening - that they've reversed promises before that were seen to cost too much.

    The other, defensible, approach is to say that state pensions are too low. 8% is an aberration, but we're going to go with it and improve the lot of state pensioners now and into the future, perhaps counteracting that with NI on pensioner income. Also not reduce (at the least) UC. But that also requires a plan on how to pay for that.
  • Pulls no punches:

    The Scottish government has previously made a lot of political hay from its relatively superior performance to England’s COVID-19 response from the start of the pandemic. This narrative is surely discredited now—not least because the Scottish National Party (SNP) has made its own critical mistakes. These mistakes happened primarily because instead of recognizing the pandemic as one that requires a coordinated British response, the party sought to emphasize and promote its differences from London......

    But some of Scotland’s mistakes have been unique—and entirely driven by the political machinations of the SNP. Early in the pandemic, Holyrood created a parallel scientific advisory body to the U.K.’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies, which it then unfortunately politicized by appointing SNP political loyalists. The activities and recommendations of this body largely duplicated the work of its London equivalent, and where it diverged, it was almost always for political reasons—and produced worse results. For example, Scotland insisted on developing its own, separate contact tracing app, with the catastrophic consequence that people traveling to other parts of the United Kingdom from Scotland could not be traced and vice versa.....

    Scotland would do well to expend less effort trying to be different from London for the sake of the SNP’s separatist ambitions and spend more time trying to effectively manage an ongoing crisis.


    https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/09/scotland-covid-19-policies-united-kingdom-snp/

    I read that yesterday and it came as no surprise whatsoever
  • HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It would be absurd not to ditch this commititment in such exceptional circumstances, Hyufd, but although the likes of OGH and myself would accept that with equanimity I am not sure how typical we are.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    NEW: “The French had a coordinated foreign policy two years out with a former PM working on it and 200 diplomats in support. We've got nothing like that basically, not even close.”

    Me and @KarlMathiesen's report on the battle for COP26 https://politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-climate-problem-conservative-government-cop26/

    We heard Boris Johnson has sent repeated messages to the cabinet in person and in writing that COP26 was a core government priority - but that hasn't been enough to right the ship
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1425729656825712643
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    FFS. These ferries are starting to make the Parliament building and the trams look absolute bargains.

    Don't forget Covid passports...

    French restaurants are turning away Scottish tourists because they fail to recognise Scotland’s Covid vaccination certificates, says a former MSP.

    Cara Hilton, who works for the food bank charity The Trussell Trust, said NHS Scotland’s proof of vaccine documents were being rejected because — unlike the English and Welsh versions — they do not contain a pixellated QR code.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-scotland-non-for-scottish-vaccine-proof-but-oui-for-english-and-welsh-qx38ls8jc
    Seems like this will be the next big “scandal” - could have been better if they focused on digital infrastructure and proof of vaccination rather than blue envelopes
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    FFS. These ferries are starting to make the Parliament building and the trams look absolute bargains.

    Don't forget Covid passports...

    French restaurants are turning away Scottish tourists because they fail to recognise Scotland’s Covid vaccination certificates, says a former MSP.

    Cara Hilton, who works for the food bank charity The Trussell Trust, said NHS Scotland’s proof of vaccine documents were being rejected because — unlike the English and Welsh versions — they do not contain a pixellated QR code.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-scotland-non-for-scottish-vaccine-proof-but-oui-for-english-and-welsh-qx38ls8jc
    Because they had to be different from England.....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It would be absurd not to ditch this commititment in such exceptional circumstances, Hyufd, but although the likes of OGH and myself would accept that with equanimity I am not sure how typical we are.

    Especially if combined with a rise in the personal allowance. Problem is that there are some OAP's, as on this board, who are reasonably comfortable, there are still other who are not.
    I suspect though, that it's those in 'our' group ...... not OGH, PtP & myself, obviously, ...... who would shout loudest, while the least well off would accept it as a necessity, 'to help our country'.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    Pulls no punches:

    "Fuck it up, but make it Scottish" propelled the SNP into Government.

    "Fuck it up, but make it Brexit" propelled BoZo into Number 10

    Neither has a trajectory that ends well...
  • Scott_xP said:

    Pulls no punches:

    "Fuck it up, but make it Scottish" propelled the SNP into Government.

    "Fuck it up, but make it Brexit" propelled BoZo into Number 10

    Neither has a trajectory that ends well...
    http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-economy-grows-by-48-in-second-quarter-as-post-lockdown-reopening-drives-spending-spree-12379320
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
    There needs to be fairness with respect to what was promised.

    We can all see that the intention was to keep pensioners up with inflation or earnings, whichever higher (the fixed - 2.5%? - increase is a bit more arbitrary, but presumably a supposedly afforable escalator to ensure pensions increase long term). What's happening this year is clearly a distortion. Ignoring earnings is not fair either. The obvious thing seems to be to look at earnings this year compared to 2019, work out the equivalent annual change (allowing for compounding) and then apply that this year and backdated last year. So if it turns out that the equivalent annual figure was 3% (probably not, but if it was) then pensioners get 3% this year (or inflation, if higher) and a backdated 3% on last year too (well, the difference between that and what they actually got).

    It will annoy some, but among my limited contacts in pensioner age groups, that would be seen as acceptable and fair. Who, realistically, is going to attack on this. Starmer is going to champion 8% for pensioners while younger working people are still a bit screwed? Really? The LDs? They can be reminded - if anyone is even listening - that they've reversed promises before that were seen to cost too much.

    The other, defensible, approach is to say that state pensions are too low. 8% is an aberration, but we're going to go with it and improve the lot of state pensioners now and into the future, perhaps counteracting that with NI on pensioner income. Also not reduce (at the least) UC. But that also requires a plan on how to pay for that.
    I am not sure your final statement is required, for the moment at least.

    By filling pockets so one can spend like Viv Nicholson would appear to have no downside. As a nation we spend ourselves into economic growth. When I have panicked, and suggested this might be inflationary, Philip Thompson has told me inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition. Actually, maybe that is the plan.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. xP, false or, at least, incomplete.

    Loathing of the far left Corbyn was the Conservative's greatest asset last time.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Rishi Sunak just said 'the government's vibe'
    https://twitter.com/laurasilver_/status/1425731255866433538
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    Scott_xP said:

    Pulls no punches:

    "Fuck it up, but make it Scottish" propelled the SNP into Government.

    "Fuck it up, but make it Brexit" propelled BoZo into Number 10

    Neither has a trajectory that ends well...
    Indeed, it ends in repeated majorities for both of them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    A Paediatric infectious diseases specialist @StGeorgesHospital, Epidemiologist @PHE_uk tweets:

    1/ Following a barrage of Twitter abuse because of my quote about our School Infection Survey (SIS) results today, I would like to reiterate what we have learnt about #COVID19 after 9 million students returned to full-time in-person education in England in March this year

    https://twitter.com/ShamezLadhani/status/1425672049595387904?s=20
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Rishi Sunak declines to say three times whether he has ambitions for the Conservative Party leadership

    ‘What I’m focused on is the recovery, the economy. The plan that I put in place, our plan for jobs, is working’
    https://twitter.com/itvnewspolitics/status/1425722873784807427
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    FFS. These ferries are starting to make the Parliament building and the trams look absolute bargains.

    Don't forget Covid passports...

    French restaurants are turning away Scottish tourists because they fail to recognise Scotland’s Covid vaccination certificates, says a former MSP.

    Cara Hilton, who works for the food bank charity The Trussell Trust, said NHS Scotland’s proof of vaccine documents were being rejected because — unlike the English and Welsh versions — they do not contain a pixellated QR code.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-scotland-non-for-scottish-vaccine-proof-but-oui-for-english-and-welsh-qx38ls8jc
    Where's yer auld alliance noo, suckers? And what does a food bank charity have to do with French restaurants?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It would be absurd not to ditch this commititment in such exceptional circumstances, Hyufd, but although the likes of OGH and myself would accept that with equanimity I am not sure how typical we are.

    Labour will weaponise it if they had any sense. It's a straightforward tory lie that hits them where it hurts.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: “The French had a coordinated foreign policy two years out with a former PM working on it and 200 diplomats in support. We've got nothing like that basically, not even close.”

    Me and @KarlMathiesen's report on the battle for COP26 https://politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-climate-problem-conservative-government-cop26/

    We heard Boris Johnson has sent repeated messages to the cabinet in person and in writing that COP26 was a core government priority - but that hasn't been enough to right the ship
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1425729656825712643

    What policies are they expecting to come out of the summit, other than the usual “We will continue to fly but you shouldn’t, the West should ‘decarbonise’ but China and India won’t, and we will make the cost of living much higher for most people”?

    As I said yesterday, this should be right at the top of the PM’s risk register of things that could sink him quickly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Sandpit said:

    What policies are they expecting to come out of the summit, other than the usual “We will continue to fly but you shouldn’t, the West should ‘decarbonise’ but China and India won’t, and we will make the cost of living much higher for most people”?

    As I said yesterday, this should be right at the top of the PM’s risk register of things that could sink him quickly.

    PM said to be wary not only of a Tory revolt on net zero but bad headlines... the risk that the only thing the average person sees of COP is ‘Oh look, a lot of people got on airplanes and flew to the UK to talk about climate change, and they brought a lot of COVID with them'
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1425731461924130816
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2021
    I always wonder if Scott n Paste in real life just converses in tweets?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    What policies are they expecting to come out of the summit, other than the usual “We will continue to fly but you shouldn’t, the West should ‘decarbonise’ but China and India won’t, and we will make the cost of living much higher for most people”?

    As I said yesterday, this should be right at the top of the PM’s risk register of things that could sink him quickly.

    PM said to be wary not only of a Tory revolt on net zero but bad headlines... the risk that the only thing the average person sees of COP is ‘Oh look, a lot of people got on airplanes and flew to the UK to talk about climate change, and they brought a lot of COVID with them'
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1425731461924130816
    And, to be fair, he's right to be. Look what appeared to happen in Cornwall after the G7.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Chancellor Rishi Sunak has promised that the UK will "absolutely" not return to austerity as new figures show the economy grew by 4.8% in the second quarter of the year.

    More on this story here: https://trib.al/4jbocrp
    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1425734332296142850/video/1


    "I will now cut the pension increase for this year..."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Net Zero dreams hit a fresh bump in the road as a groundbreaking study warns "blue hydrogen" could be a fifth more polluting than fossil fuels.

    The controversial replacement for gas to heat our homes is a key plank of PM's plan to go carbon neutral.


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15846010/net-zero-blue-hydrogen-polluting-natural-gas/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    edited August 2021
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    No, the pension will not be increased by 8%, this would be totally unacceptable when there are going to be a raft of industrial disputes across the public sector where staff are being offered a small fraction of that or nothing at all. Whilst I take @StuartDickson's point that our state pension is low compared to many other countries fixing this simply cannot be the priority at the moment. I would expect an increase of 3-4%, generous but not ridiculous.

    Several Tories very confident in their government doing the right and sensible thing on the triple lock. Hope they are correct but not sure where that confidence comes from.
    Because even the blue-rinse end of the membership know that it’s not the right thing to do, when the numbers come from a statistical quirk associated with a pandemic. It would also go down like the proverbial cup of cold sick in the Red Wall seats if accompanied by tax rises on working people.

    They’ll likely find a way to fudge the average earnings figures, to take out the pandemic factor and leave a more reasonable number.
    That all makes sense but why has it then be portrayed in the press as Boris wants to keep the triple lock manifesto commitment vs Sunak trying to do as you suggest? Is that down to Sunak campaigning to be the next leader (if so, why does the PM allow it)? If it is such an obvious slam dunk decision, why don't they make it clear now rather than allow the stories of division to fester? Leaving it late will also lead to pensioners expecting 8% and getting 3%, they could have announced a technical adjustment for the coming year months ago and it would have been less of an issue as the uplift was unknown and everyone was focussed on covid.

    I think there is disagreement and no decision has been made yet, and therefore could go either way.
  • Sunak needs to be creative.. How about freezing all public sector pay, pensions and benefits this year, but give everyone an 8% Covid booster cheque - effectively an extra month's payment. It would be expensive this year, but would keep the base expense at last year's level from which to give permanent pay rises next year.

    Now expecting to be given lots of good reasons why this is a stupid idea!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    No, the pension will not be increased by 8%, this would be totally unacceptable when there are going to be a raft of industrial disputes across the public sector where staff are being offered a small fraction of that or nothing at all. Whilst I take @StuartDickson's point that our state pension is low compared to many other countries fixing this simply cannot be the priority at the moment. I would expect an increase of 3-4%, generous but not ridiculous.

    Several Tories very confident in their government doing the right and sensible thing on the triple lock. Hope they are correct but not sure where that confidence comes from.
    Because even the blue-rinse end of the membership know that it’s not the right thing to do, when the numbers come from a statistical quirk associated with a pandemic. It would also go down like the proverbial cup of cold sick in the Red Wall seats if accompanied by tax rises on working people.

    They’ll likely find a way to fudge the average earnings figures, to take out the pandemic factor and leave a more reasonable number.
    That all makes sense but why has it then be portrayed in the press as Boris wants to keep the triple lock manifesto commitment vs Sunak trying to do as you suggest? Is that down to Sunak campaigning to be the next leader (if so, why does the PM allow it)? If it is such an obvious slam dunk decision, why don't they make it clear now rather than allow the stories of division to fester?

    I think there is disagreement and no decision has been made yet, and therefore could go either way.
    It’s all political positioning at this point, until the actual numbers and proposals come out - when there will be a cabinet meeting and a united front.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    DougSeal said:
    ...The team, led by researchers from Barcelona's IDIAP Jordi Gol institute, found that rates of venous thromboembolism (VTE) – a combination of deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism – were roughly 1.3 times higher in people who had received either the AstraZeneca or Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines than in those who had not been vaccinated.

    Perhaps more shockingly, the EMA-funded study found that rates of VTE were eight times higher in people who had been infected with COVID-19...


    Not shockingly, really - much higher rates associated with Covid infections were known/predicted.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    FFS. These ferries are starting to make the Parliament building and the trams look absolute bargains.

    Don't forget Covid passports...

    French restaurants are turning away Scottish tourists because they fail to recognise Scotland’s Covid vaccination certificates, says a former MSP.

    Cara Hilton, who works for the food bank charity The Trussell Trust, said NHS Scotland’s proof of vaccine documents were being rejected because — unlike the English and Welsh versions — they do not contain a pixellated QR code.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-scotland-non-for-scottish-vaccine-proof-but-oui-for-english-and-welsh-qx38ls8jc
    "pixellated QR code"? As opposed to a QR code? If the squares are pixels, then our display/print tech has reverted to the 80s, or maybe the 50s!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    What policies are they expecting to come out of the summit, other than the usual “We will continue to fly but you shouldn’t, the West should ‘decarbonise’ but China and India won’t, and we will make the cost of living much higher for most people”?

    As I said yesterday, this should be right at the top of the PM’s risk register of things that could sink him quickly.

    PM said to be wary not only of a Tory revolt on net zero but bad headlines... the risk that the only thing the average person sees of COP is ‘Oh look, a lot of people got on airplanes and flew to the UK to talk about climate change, and they brought a lot of COVID with them'
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1425731461924130816
    And, to be fair, he's right to be. Look what appeared to happen in Cornwall after the G7.
    On recent approval ratings versus Rishi, they all fell even more in love with Boris!
  • Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
    There needs to be fairness with respect to what was promised.

    We can all see that the intention was to keep pensioners up with inflation or earnings, whichever higher (the fixed - 2.5%? - increase is a bit more arbitrary, but presumably a supposedly afforable escalator to ensure pensions increase long term). What's happening this year is clearly a distortion. Ignoring earnings is not fair either. The obvious thing seems to be to look at earnings this year compared to 2019, work out the equivalent annual change (allowing for compounding) and then apply that this year and backdated last year. So if it turns out that the equivalent annual figure was 3% (probably not, but if it was) then pensioners get 3% this year (or inflation, if higher) and a backdated 3% on last year too (well, the difference between that and what they actually got).

    It will annoy some, but among my limited contacts in pensioner age groups, that would be seen as acceptable and fair. Who, realistically, is going to attack on this. Starmer is going to champion 8% for pensioners while younger working people are still a bit screwed? Really? The LDs? They can be reminded - if anyone is even listening - that they've reversed promises before that were seen to cost too much.

    The other, defensible, approach is to say that state pensions are too low. 8% is an aberration, but we're going to go with it and improve the lot of state pensioners now and into the future, perhaps counteracting that with NI on pensioner income. Also not reduce (at the least) UC. But that also requires a plan on how to pay for that.
    I am not sure your final statement is required, for the moment at least.

    By filling pockets so one can spend like Viv Nicholson would appear to have no downside. As a nation we spend ourselves into economic growth. When I have panicked, and suggested this might be inflationary, Philip Thompson has told me inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition. Actually, maybe that is the plan.
    Moderate inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition.

    High inflation is terrible. Deflation is terrible. Moderate inflation is the sweet spot.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It would be absurd not to ditch this commititment in such exceptional circumstances, Hyufd, but although the likes of OGH and myself would accept that with equanimity I am not sure how typical we are.

    Labour will weaponise it if they had any sense. It's a straightforward tory lie that hits them where it hurts.
    SNP + SGP manifesto commitment to indyref2, confirmed by GEs at Holyrood and Westminster: HYUFD "Who cares? We're Tories and hate everyone."

    Tory manifexto commitment to TL: HYUFD *runs around in ever decreasing circles at the thought of losing his core vote*
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
    There needs to be fairness with respect to what was promised.

    We can all see that the intention was to keep pensioners up with inflation or earnings, whichever higher (the fixed - 2.5%? - increase is a bit more arbitrary, but presumably a supposedly afforable escalator to ensure pensions increase long term). What's happening this year is clearly a distortion. Ignoring earnings is not fair either. The obvious thing seems to be to look at earnings this year compared to 2019, work out the equivalent annual change (allowing for compounding) and then apply that this year and backdated last year. So if it turns out that the equivalent annual figure was 3% (probably not, but if it was) then pensioners get 3% this year (or inflation, if higher) and a backdated 3% on last year too (well, the difference between that and what they actually got).

    It will annoy some, but among my limited contacts in pensioner age groups, that would be seen as acceptable and fair. Who, realistically, is going to attack on this. Starmer is going to champion 8% for pensioners while younger working people are still a bit screwed? Really? The LDs? They can be reminded - if anyone is even listening - that they've reversed promises before that were seen to cost too much.

    The other, defensible, approach is to say that state pensions are too low. 8% is an aberration, but we're going to go with it and improve the lot of state pensioners now and into the future, perhaps counteracting that with NI on pensioner income. Also not reduce (at the least) UC. But that also requires a plan on how to pay for that.
    I am not sure your final statement is required, for the moment at least.

    By filling pockets so one can spend like Viv Nicholson would appear to have no downside. As a nation we spend ourselves into economic growth. When I have panicked, and suggested this might be inflationary, Philip Thompson has told me inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition. Actually, maybe that is the plan.
    Moderate inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition.

    High inflation is terrible. Deflation is terrible. Moderate inflation is the sweet spot.
    Well, it certainly would be for us given the huge debt overhang we have.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    Scott_xP said:

    Net Zero dreams hit a fresh bump in the road as a groundbreaking study warns "blue hydrogen" could be a fifth more polluting than fossil fuels.

    The controversial replacement for gas to heat our homes is a key plank of PM's plan to go carbon neutral.


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15846010/net-zero-blue-hydrogen-polluting-natural-gas/

    I had to look this up because the article had no actual facts and I was confused as to what blue hydrogen was.

    So to those of you here who have the appropriate knowledge can someone explain why on earth you would want to produce hydrogen from methane for environmental reasons. I can see it might be the way to produce it commercially, but no reason to produce it for environmental reasons as you still have to do carbon capture. Might as well burn any old crap and do carbon capture in that case.

    Electrolysis of water from renewable energy makes sense (environmentally if not economically) as there is no carbon emission.

    Is it a case of politicians just hearing the word that burning Hydrogen is carbon free and don't think about any carbon emitted in producing it?
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    No, the pension will not be increased by 8%, this would be totally unacceptable when there are going to be a raft of industrial disputes across the public sector where staff are being offered a small fraction of that or nothing at all. Whilst I take @StuartDickson's point that our state pension is low compared to many other countries fixing this simply cannot be the priority at the moment. I would expect an increase of 3-4%, generous but not ridiculous.

    Several Tories very confident in their government doing the right and sensible thing on the triple lock. Hope they are correct but not sure where that confidence comes from.
    Because even the blue-rinse end of the membership know that it’s not the right thing to do, when the numbers come from a statistical quirk associated with a pandemic. It would also go down like the proverbial cup of cold sick in the Red Wall seats if accompanied by tax rises on working people.

    They’ll likely find a way to fudge the average earnings figures, to take out the pandemic factor and leave a more reasonable number.
    That all makes sense but why has it then be portrayed in the press as Boris wants to keep the triple lock manifesto commitment vs Sunak trying to do as you suggest? Is that down to Sunak campaigning to be the next leader (if so, why does the PM allow it)? If it is such an obvious slam dunk decision, why don't they make it clear now rather than allow the stories of division to fester?

    I think there is disagreement and no decision has been made yet, and therefore could go either way.
    It’s all political positioning at this point, until the actual numbers and proposals come out - when there will be a cabinet meeting and a united front.
    A united front until the Sunday papers come out, that is.
  • We can have an 8% increase in the pension, as long as we can also have an 8% cut in the tuition fees. Rishi?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
    But a huge number of those workplace pensions are going to be worthless. The size of the pot you need to retire on is out of the reach of all these new schemes the Govt has encouraged. people are going to be very disappointed.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Still interesting to look at how the Labour vote has become more Remain over time...
    (excluding those who didn't vote)

    Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
    Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
    Lab 2017 voters: 71/29
    Lab 2019 voters: 77/23


    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1425512711677427717?s=20
  • Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
  • malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    The young are just greedy whiney no marks. Get out and work like the pensioners did and earn your own money. A days work would be too much for most of the pampered jessies. Back in the day when men were men , we did not plot how to rob our granny , we got out there and worked our socks off, no handed it on a plate in those days.
    I've worked every day since I came out of uni and I've contributed thousands and thousands of Pounds in tax. I would like to choose to not spend that on you.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ‘Blood clots after Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine rare but devastating’

    A breakthrough study lead by scientists in Oxford has revealed 'devastating' findings on blood clotting in some adults after Covid-19 vaccination.

    … the overall mortality rate of patients with VITT was 23 per cent.

    … "In those aged under 50, incidence is around one in 50,000 people who have received the vaccine. But our study shows that for those who develop VITT, it can be devastating. It often affects young, otherwise healthy vaccine recipients and has high mortality.

    … Some 85 per cent of the patients studied were under the age of 60, despite most of the elderly population having been vaccinated.

    Almost all of those presenting to hospital experienced the condition between five and 30 days after their first vaccination with the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine.

    https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/19506046.blood-clots-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-rare-devastating/

    Messy reporting. Why is one number per 50,000 and the other per 100? The incidence rate is in under 50s but the death rate is in a sample where 15% are above 60. This cashes out as: your chances of dying, as an under 50 year old, are very significantly less than .00046% or 1 in 217,000 (assuming greater lethality among older populations). Wow.
    Take it up with Dr Sue Pavord of Oxford University Hospitals (OUH) NHS Foundation Trust and/or the New England Journal of Medicine. The Oxford Mail is simply summarising their presentations.
    No issue with Pavord, because it is possible to work out from what she is saying, what she is actually saying. It is the paper which has failed to state the position as per my previous post. If I can, they should be able to.
    I long ago realised that journalists don’t work like that. They are lazy, and will simply copy and paste from source material, eg press releases. Then tweak a bit. Getting out a calculator is too much like hard work, and what if they do the sum wrong? How embarrassing.
    We don't have journalists now, we have reporters who only pass on propaganda handed to them.
    Whilst this is largely true Malcolm I am not sure that it is their fault. Proper journalists had genuine knowledge of their field, they ideally had some practical experience, they knew who were reliable sources of information and who were not and they could identify when they were being spun a line. The problem is that someone so narrowly focused is unlikely to make a living in the current media where there is a need for constant output with a very small return per piece. There is also the problem that knowing a fair bit about your material makes you realise that most stories are not as exciting as they first appear.

    The Times still has some proper journalists like this. The FT also, in a narrower field. No one else has the money to maintain them. Free internet news has had some upsides but there are downsides too.
    As with most categories of human endeavour (probably including our own comments here), Sturgeon's Law tends to apply.
    Well, ninety percent of everything the UK government does is crap.

    But not sure that ninety percent of everything the Covid vaccine boffins do is crap. At least, I bloody well hope not.

    And at the other end of the scale, and back to the original point, I’d say that well over 90% of what passes for “journalism” is crap. I feel sorry for the few competent, conscientious ones out there, mired in a sea of utter guff.
  • ydoethur said:

    Selebian said:

    HYUFD said:

    The problem is the triple lock was a manifesto commitment and there is some evidence scrapping it would cost the Tories votes.

    A poll a few years ago found scrapping it would see over a third of pensioners be less likely to vote Tory
    https://www.ftadviser.com/state-pension/2017/04/24/scrapping-triple-lock-would-cost-votes-poll-finds/

    It is not all about votes but fairness

    You cannot cut the UC uplift and award us pensioners 8% rise

    It would be immoral and wrong

    And you may be surprised just how many pensioners would accept a smaller award this year
    There needs to be fairness with respect to what was promised.

    We can all see that the intention was to keep pensioners up with inflation or earnings, whichever higher (the fixed - 2.5%? - increase is a bit more arbitrary, but presumably a supposedly afforable escalator to ensure pensions increase long term). What's happening this year is clearly a distortion. Ignoring earnings is not fair either. The obvious thing seems to be to look at earnings this year compared to 2019, work out the equivalent annual change (allowing for compounding) and then apply that this year and backdated last year. So if it turns out that the equivalent annual figure was 3% (probably not, but if it was) then pensioners get 3% this year (or inflation, if higher) and a backdated 3% on last year too (well, the difference between that and what they actually got).

    It will annoy some, but among my limited contacts in pensioner age groups, that would be seen as acceptable and fair. Who, realistically, is going to attack on this. Starmer is going to champion 8% for pensioners while younger working people are still a bit screwed? Really? The LDs? They can be reminded - if anyone is even listening - that they've reversed promises before that were seen to cost too much.

    The other, defensible, approach is to say that state pensions are too low. 8% is an aberration, but we're going to go with it and improve the lot of state pensioners now and into the future, perhaps counteracting that with NI on pensioner income. Also not reduce (at the least) UC. But that also requires a plan on how to pay for that.
    I am not sure your final statement is required, for the moment at least.

    By filling pockets so one can spend like Viv Nicholson would appear to have no downside. As a nation we spend ourselves into economic growth. When I have panicked, and suggested this might be inflationary, Philip Thompson has told me inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition. Actually, maybe that is the plan.
    Moderate inflation is good, and the debt reduces by natural attrition.

    High inflation is terrible. Deflation is terrible. Moderate inflation is the sweet spot.
    Well, it certainly would be for us given the huge debt overhang we have.
    Well precisely.

    Its a real problem and real risk, as the Japanese have been struggling with for the past thirty years and now we've been struggling with it for the past decade. I strongly suspect that if it wasn't for QE and emergency low interest rates, we would have entered a deflationary spiral which would have been an unmitigated disaster for us as a nation.

    Those obsessing about inflation using 1970s style thinking alone are like people seeking to fight wars by panicking over how we'll be dealing with trench warfare. The world has moved on, economics has moved on, deflation is a very real problem to be avoided.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    On the 09:43 from Woking to Waterloo. It’s a 12 car train and it’s reasonably busy.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    Still interesting to look at how the Labour vote has become more Remain over time...
    (excluding those who didn't vote)

    Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
    Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
    Lab 2017 voters: 71/29
    Lab 2019 voters: 77/23


    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1425512711677427717?s=20

    Yes, that's intriguing. There are two more variables in the mix, under-40 age and higher education, both of which have bewcome very strongly correlated with voting Labour, and which were also very strongly linked to voting Remain. Which is the chicken and which the egg?
  • We can have an 8% increase in the pension, as long as we can also have an 8% cut in the tuition fees. Rishi?

    You haven't thought that through remotely CHB, that would be a terrible, terrible, terrible deal for students and a fantastic deal for pensioners.
  • We can have an 8% increase in the pension, as long as we can have an 8% cut in Philip's posting. Rishi?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,086
    edited August 2021

    Has Scott posted about this yet?

    NEW: U.K. exports to the EU were above pre-Brexit levels for a second month in June, half a year after the country severed trade ties with the bloc

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/uk-trade-post-brexit-deal-eu/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit

    That is very good news
    Not for Scott XP it isnt......
    Can someone living in Kent let us know whether Operation Brock has had to be reimplemented and the motorway is a campsite for lorry-drivers yet, as per the recent shouting on PB?
  • malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    The young are just greedy whiney no marks. Get out and work like the pensioners did and earn your own money. A days work would be too much for most of the pampered jessies. Back in the day when men were men , we did not plot how to rob our granny , we got out there and worked our socks off, no handed it on a plate in those days.
    I've worked every day since I came out of uni and I've contributed thousands and thousands of Pounds in tax. I would like to choose to not spend that on you.
    Malcolm is entitled to the pension pot he set aside, no more and no less.

    For the state pension, that's nothing. Voting to transfer ever more money to state pensions is just politics not an entitlement, his generation set aside nothing for their retirement.
  • malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    The young are just greedy whiney no marks. Get out and work like the pensioners did and earn your own money. A days work would be too much for most of the pampered jessies. Back in the day when men were men , we did not plot how to rob our granny , we got out there and worked our socks off, no handed it on a plate in those days.
    I've worked every day since I came out of uni and I've contributed thousands and thousands of Pounds in tax. I would like to choose to not spend that on you.
    Malcolm is entitled to the pension pot he set aside, no more and no less.

    For the state pension, that's nothing. Voting to transfer ever more money to state pensions is just politics not an entitlement, his generation set aside nothing for their retirement.
    There won't be any state pension by the time I retire, most of us won't be able to buy houses and the planet is burning. What a winner!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021

    Still interesting to look at how the Labour vote has become more Remain over time...
    (excluding those who didn't vote)

    Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
    Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
    Lab 2017 voters: 71/29
    Lab 2019 voters: 77/23


    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1425512711677427717?s=20

    Yes, that's intriguing. There are two more variables in the mix, under-40 age and higher education, both of which have bewcome very strongly correlated with voting Labour, and which were also very strongly linked to voting Remain. Which is the chicken and which the egg?
    It should be noted Cameron won graduates in 2010 and 2015 and Brown appealed more to the working class (more Leave) than Ed Miliband, Corbyn and Starmer did so I think Brexit is a factor but not the only one
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    tlg86 said:

    On the 09:43 from Woking to Waterloo. It’s a 12 car train and it’s reasonably busy.

    And to add to the anecdotes of Covid/Brexit fallout (eg people now travelling to work and supermarket shelves) - Sainsburys, Cobham for the 2nd week has lots of empty shelves again. Seems pretty random as to what is missing compared to last week, but tinned goods is common for both weeks.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    Sunak needs to be creative.. How about freezing all public sector pay, pensions and benefits this year, but give everyone an 8% Covid booster cheque - effectively an extra month's payment. It would be expensive this year, but would keep the base expense at last year's level from which to give permanent pay rises next year.

    Now expecting to be given lots of good reasons why this is a stupid idea!

    I see the argument, but big-bang solutions are politically appealing but tend to be disruptive. The suspension of stamp duty turned out to be an expensive mistake IMO - main beneficiaries were existing house owners (who put up prices to compensate) and it produced a bubble of frantic sales which is now poised to deflate.

    I think there are just two reasonable solutions - change to a double lock and take the electoral hit, or give them the raise but put up taxes/NI. The latter could in theory be wrapped into the social care plan which has been floating around.
  • malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    The young are just greedy whiney no marks. Get out and work like the pensioners did and earn your own money. A days work would be too much for most of the pampered jessies. Back in the day when men were men , we did not plot how to rob our granny , we got out there and worked our socks off, no handed it on a plate in those days.
    I've worked every day since I came out of uni and I've contributed thousands and thousands of Pounds in tax. I would like to choose to not spend that on you.
    Malcolm is entitled to the pension pot he set aside, no more and no less.

    For the state pension, that's nothing. Voting to transfer ever more money to state pensions is just politics not an entitlement, his generation set aside nothing for their retirement.
    There won't be any state pension by the time I retire, most of us won't be able to buy houses and the planet is burning. What a winner!
    Alternatively if malcolm has his way, there'd be no wages and only pensions by the time we retire.

    But somehow I don't think that'll be the case.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
    But a huge number of those workplace pensions are going to be worthless. The size of the pot you need to retire on is out of the reach of all these new schemes the Govt has encouraged. people are going to be very disappointed.
    Given most pensioners own their own property and have no mortgage or rent to pay they don't need vast pensions, just enough to live on.

    We will also be far better placed than most of Europe to cope as we have far higher workplace pension enrolment than they do and as Macron starts to cut the vast state pension bill in France
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    edited August 2021

    Sunak needs to be creative.. How about freezing all public sector pay, pensions and benefits this year, but give everyone an 8% Covid booster cheque - effectively an extra month's payment. It would be expensive this year, but would keep the base expense at last year's level from which to give permanent pay rises next year.

    Now expecting to be given lots of good reasons why this is a stupid idea!

    I see the argument, but big-bang solutions are politically appealing but tend to be disruptive. The suspension of stamp duty turned out to be an expensive mistake IMO - main beneficiaries were existing house owners (who put up prices to compensate) and it produced a bubble of frantic sales which is now poised to deflate.

    I think there are just two reasonable solutions - change to a double lock and take the electoral hit, or give them the raise but put up taxes/NI. The latter could in theory be wrapped into the social care plan which has been floating around.
    I think it is naive not to assume that the main beneficiaries were always expected and desired to be the voting existing homeowners. The policy may have been spun as if it were helping buyers and supporting the market during covid but it was always very transparent who would gain.
  • Rishi Sunak is popular because he throws lots of money around and nobody else can change my mind
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    Prince Andrew: Refusal to talk to Epstein investigators ‘straining relations between UK and America’

    … the lack of information-sharing had caused diplomatic strain, with US law enforcement and diplomats raising the matter with their British counterparts.

    The lack of cooperation now spans three years of reported attempts by the US authorities to gather facts from the royal who, in a statement from 2019, said he would be willing to help US law-enforcement with investigations. However, in January last year, Manhattan US attorney Geoffrey Berman said the country’s authorities had received “zero cooperation” from the prince…

    Of particular interest to the US authorities is how money transfers may be linked to the movement of young women and girls. The various interested bodies, including the FBI, believe these may offer insights into ongoing organised criminal operations.

    The authorities’ interests are understood to include multiple trips by the royal to Epstein’s Caribbean island, Little St James, as well as Florida and New York. Last year, prosecutors in the US Virgin Islands, which includes Little St James, alleged Mr Epstein abused hundreds of young women and girls up until 2018.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-andrew-america-epstein-probes-cooperation-b1900854.html?amp

    Given the US refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas tough. Biden is hardly doing a great deal to defend international security at the moment anyway nor has he or the Democrats in Congress ever been that interested in prioritising a UK trade deal either.

    Perhaps they could also look a bit more into Bill Clinton and Bill Gates' links to Epstein before lecturing us

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/18/photos-allegedly-show-bill-clinton-receiving-massage-from-jeffrey-epstein-accuser/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html
    This Windsor scandal is clearly touching a raw Tory nerve. Hardly news. I expect a veritable infestation of squirrels in the coming months and years. Poor old Harry and Meghan.

    Shame on you HY. If the Tories had an ounce of decency they would be encouraging the coward prince to get on a trans-Atlantic plane and face the charges, as he promised to do in 2019.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    The young are just greedy whiney no marks. Get out and work like the pensioners did and earn your own money. A days work would be too much for most of the pampered jessies. Back in the day when men were men , we did not plot how to rob our granny , we got out there and worked our socks off, no handed it on a plate in those days.
    Enjoy it while it last Malc, you won't get anything near as generous in indyScotland...
    Don’t you start the too wee, too poor, too stupid nonsense Foxy. You’re a better man than that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Dickson, whether fair or not, the obvious comparison between a prince accused of a serious crime and the American citizen certainly guilty of one means that the pressure for Prince Andrew to head to the US is far less than it would otherwise be.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited August 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    What policies are they expecting to come out of the summit, other than the usual “We will continue to fly but you shouldn’t, the West should ‘decarbonise’ but China and India won’t, and we will make the cost of living much higher for most people”?

    As I said yesterday, this should be right at the top of the PM’s risk register of things that could sink him quickly.

    PM said to be wary not only of a Tory revolt on net zero but bad headlines... the risk that the only thing the average person sees of COP is ‘Oh look, a lot of people got on airplanes and flew to the UK to talk about climate change, and they brought a lot of COVID with them'
    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1425731461924130816
    No sh!t, Sherlock. I’ve been saying every day this week that if IT’S A MASSIVE F***ING EMERGENCY, sending a hundred planes to a physical summit is just about the worst way *they* can demonstrate they don’t intend to change their own behaviours, while they expect *us* to massively change ours.

    Get the COP26 summit sponsored by Cisco, and do the whole thing remotely on Webex.

    See also, the determination of governments to see people spending hours per day commuting. Companies should be incentivised to stop people travelling every day, for environmental reasons - but instead the government sees the reduction in revenue from train operators and coffee shops.
    I'm seeing the planning at close hand as we've got a stand at the event. On the one hand a lot is clearly being made up on the wing - for example, there is a web page with 9 icons for exhibitors (different aspects - furniture, design, food etc.), 8 of which were inoperative when I last looked - you could book a stand (and had precisely 3 days to get your application in) but details of what happened then were tbc. And yes, flying people from around the world to tel lus to fly less isn't an ideal look.

    On the other hand, the vaccination thing is certainly being taken seriously. The UN is pulling out all the stops to ensure that every single delegate is double-vaccinated, jumping any national queue to get priority (and given that a typical country will send maybe 10-20 people that's not a big deal). They are flatly refusing to confirm the outer Green Zone, which if it goes ahead will have a carneval of NGOs doing all kinds of exhibits (party conference meets Edinburgh fringe), and it may well be that all that happens is vaccinated delegates and a tight ring of expensive Blue Zone stands with vaccinated staff. As super-spreader events go it may be significantly less than some of the other recent big events.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    Rishi Sunak is popular because he throws lots of money around and nobody else can change my mind

    Sure that is part of it. But he is a good campaigner, clever, articulate and unlike most of his colleagues has not yet been involved in a public scandal. He does stand out as the best of a bad bunch in cabinet.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Prince Andrew: Refusal to talk to Epstein investigators ‘straining relations between UK and America’

    … the lack of information-sharing had caused diplomatic strain, with US law enforcement and diplomats raising the matter with their British counterparts.

    The lack of cooperation now spans three years of reported attempts by the US authorities to gather facts from the royal who, in a statement from 2019, said he would be willing to help US law-enforcement with investigations. However, in January last year, Manhattan US attorney Geoffrey Berman said the country’s authorities had received “zero cooperation” from the prince…

    Of particular interest to the US authorities is how money transfers may be linked to the movement of young women and girls. The various interested bodies, including the FBI, believe these may offer insights into ongoing organised criminal operations.

    The authorities’ interests are understood to include multiple trips by the royal to Epstein’s Caribbean island, Little St James, as well as Florida and New York. Last year, prosecutors in the US Virgin Islands, which includes Little St James, alleged Mr Epstein abused hundreds of young women and girls up until 2018.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-andrew-america-epstein-probes-cooperation-b1900854.html?amp

    Given the US refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas tough. Biden is hardly doing a great deal to defend international security at the moment anyway nor has he or the Democrats in Congress ever been that interested in prioritising a UK trade deal either.

    Perhaps they could also look a bit more into Bill Clinton and Bill Gates' links to Epstein before lecturing us

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/18/photos-allegedly-show-bill-clinton-receiving-massage-from-jeffrey-epstein-accuser/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html
    This Windsor scandal is clearly touching a raw Tory nerve. Hardly news. I expect a veritable infestation of squirrels in the coming months and years. Poor old Harry and Meghan.

    Shame on you HY. If the Tories had an ounce of decency they would be encouraging the coward prince to get on a trans-Atlantic plane and face the charges, as he promised to do in 2019.
    First, none of the charges are criminal only civil.

    Second, we are not going to play one rule for us and none for them, as long as they refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas after she killed Harry Dunn they are not getting Andrew, tough.

    As for Harry he remains above Andrew in the line of succession anyway, as do his children with Meghan now, they are not the issue
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    HYUFD said:

    Still interesting to look at how the Labour vote has become more Remain over time...
    (excluding those who didn't vote)

    Lab 2010 voters: Remain 59 / Leave 41
    Lab 2015 voters: 65/35
    Lab 2017 voters: 71/29
    Lab 2019 voters: 77/23


    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1425512711677427717?s=20

    Yes, that's intriguing. There are two more variables in the mix, under-40 age and higher education, both of which have bewcome very strongly correlated with voting Labour, and which were also very strongly linked to voting Remain. Which is the chicken and which the egg?
    It should be noted Cameron won graduates in 2010 and 2015 and Brown appealed more to the working class (more Leave) than Ed Miliband, Corbyn and Starmer did so I think Brexit is a factor but not the only one
    Ok genuine question. I thought we had secret ballots in this country. I know that you can in fact identify who voted on each slip as there is a record taken, but I assumed it is not looked at. So how do we 'know' that Cameron won graduates in 2010 and 2015 etc? Is this just from polling, or from actual voting data? As I said - genuine question.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
    But a huge number of those workplace pensions are going to be worthless. The size of the pot you need to retire on is out of the reach of all these new schemes the Govt has encouraged. people are going to be very disappointed.
    Given most pensioners own their own property and have no mortgage or rent to pay they don't need vast pensions, just enough to live on.

    We will also be far better placed than most of Europe to cope as we have far higher workplace pension enrolment than they do and as Macron starts to cut the vast state pension bill in France
    LOL. Have you any idea what these new workplace pensions will give you to live on?

    I wasn't making any comparison with France. I was just pointing out that most of these new pensions will be next to worthless, and I don't mean a little less than they are currently getting so ok because they don't have a mortgage to pay, but actually next to worthless. Many will only be paying out the equivalent of the low tens of pounds a week.
  • Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    Rubbish, if that was the case it would be pushing English independence and the end of the Union, like the English Democrats used to do, not refusing Scots an indyref2.

    It would also be keeping EVEL
  • Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    The young are just greedy whiney no marks. Get out and work like the pensioners did and earn your own money. A days work would be too much for most of the pampered jessies. Back in the day when men were men , we did not plot how to rob our granny , we got out there and worked our socks off, no handed it on a plate in those days.
    Enjoy it while it last Malc, you won't get anything near as generous in indyScotland...
    Don’t you start the too wee, too poor, too stupid nonsense Foxy. You’re a better man than that.
    The truth hurts
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
    But a huge number of those workplace pensions are going to be worthless. The size of the pot you need to retire on is out of the reach of all these new schemes the Govt has encouraged. people are going to be very disappointed.
    Given most pensioners own their own property and have no mortgage or rent to pay they don't need vast pensions, just enough to live on.

    We will also be far better placed than most of Europe to cope as we have far higher workplace pension enrolment than they do and as Macron starts to cut the vast state pension bill in France
    LOL. Have you any idea what these new workplace pensions will give you to live on?

    I wasn't making any comparison with France. I was just pointing out that most of these new pensions will be next to worthless, and I don't mean a little less than they are currently getting so ok because they don't have a mortgage to pay, but actually next to worthless. Many will only be paying out the equivalent of the low tens of pounds a week.
    Also while I think the figure is currently 72% of pensioners owning their own home expect that figure to drop over the next few decades as just as the figure for home ownership is.
  • Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
    But a huge number of those workplace pensions are going to be worthless. The size of the pot you need to retire on is out of the reach of all these new schemes the Govt has encouraged. people are going to be very disappointed.
    Given most pensioners own their own property and have no mortgage or rent to pay they don't need vast pensions, just enough to live on.

    We will also be far better placed than most of Europe to cope as we have far higher workplace pension enrolment than they do and as Macron starts to cut the vast state pension bill in France
    LOL. Have you any idea what these new workplace pensions will give you to live on?

    I wasn't making any comparison with France. I was just pointing out that most of these new pensions will be next to worthless, and I don't mean a little less than they are currently getting so ok because they don't have a mortgage to pay, but actually next to worthless. Many will only be paying out the equivalent of the low tens of pounds a week.
    Also while I think the figure is currently 72% of pensioners owning their own home expect that figure to drop over the next few decades as just as the figure for home ownership is.
    By 40 most own their own home still and that percentage expands every decade after.

    You can also provide targeted support through Pension credit etc to pensioners who are not home owners, the state pension however goes to all pensioners, including home owners
  • Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145

    HYUFD said:

    Prince Andrew: Refusal to talk to Epstein investigators ‘straining relations between UK and America’

    … the lack of information-sharing had caused diplomatic strain, with US law enforcement and diplomats raising the matter with their British counterparts.

    The lack of cooperation now spans three years of reported attempts by the US authorities to gather facts from the royal who, in a statement from 2019, said he would be willing to help US law-enforcement with investigations. However, in January last year, Manhattan US attorney Geoffrey Berman said the country’s authorities had received “zero cooperation” from the prince…

    Of particular interest to the US authorities is how money transfers may be linked to the movement of young women and girls. The various interested bodies, including the FBI, believe these may offer insights into ongoing organised criminal operations.

    The authorities’ interests are understood to include multiple trips by the royal to Epstein’s Caribbean island, Little St James, as well as Florida and New York. Last year, prosecutors in the US Virgin Islands, which includes Little St James, alleged Mr Epstein abused hundreds of young women and girls up until 2018.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-andrew-america-epstein-probes-cooperation-b1900854.html?amp

    Given the US refuse to hand over Anne Sacoolas tough. Biden is hardly doing a great deal to defend international security at the moment anyway nor has he or the Democrats in Congress ever been that interested in prioritising a UK trade deal either.

    Perhaps they could also look a bit more into Bill Clinton and Bill Gates' links to Epstein before lecturing us

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/18/photos-allegedly-show-bill-clinton-receiving-massage-from-jeffrey-epstein-accuser/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html
    This Windsor scandal is clearly touching a raw Tory nerve. Hardly news. I expect a veritable infestation of squirrels in the coming months and years. Poor old Harry and Meghan.

    Shame on you HY. If the Tories had an ounce of decency they would be encouraging the coward prince to get on a trans-Atlantic plane and face the charges, as he promised to do in 2019.
    Almost as much whataboutery as an Old Firm supporters' spat.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2021

    Fishing said:

    I'm not sure it'll be as damaging as people think, politically speaking, just because it's so difficult to justify an 8% increase for the old at a time when the young are getting completely screwed.

    The Triple Lock, like the FTPA and so much else the Heir to Blair did is long overdue for the scrapheap.

    This is the problem with Tories: you are so inconsistent. Johnson has ditched pretty much everything Cameron, Major and Thatcher ever did. The obvious conclusion is that one day a future Tory PM will ditch everything Johnson does.

    The modern iteration of the Tory party:

    - English Nationalist, not One Nation
    - Revolutionary, not Conservative
    - High tax/high debt, not Friedman
    - State control, not free market
    - Social engineering, not conservatism
    - Nasty, not paternal
    - Reactive, not confident
    - Populist, not principled
    - Clown, not competence
    - Degenerate, not moral
    - Cash for pals, not good governance
    - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation
    - Fuck business, not pro business
    - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law
    - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions
    - Authoritarian, not liberal
    - Corruption, not ethics

    The only constant is the blue rosettes.
    The Conservative Party used to be one that I could disagree with but respect as a British institution. That party is gone and the thing that has replaced it has no ideology, which is really sad, to be honest.
    According to party loyalist HYUFD it has transmogrified into the English Nationalist Party. The honest thing to do would be to change the name, as that more accurately reflects the nature of the organisation. But alas honesty is not one of their core characteristics.
    The notion that the Tories are an English Nationalist Party is completely farcical. As much as I would want it to be one, it very clearly isn't.

    If the Tories were then they'd be pushing for a second Scottish independence referendum and pushing for a Yes vote in that. Is that happening? I don't think so.
    One wonders why you feel so at home as an English Nationalist and those that aren't, have resigned or been kicked out, if what you are saying is true.
    Because its not true.

    The ones who resigned or got kicked out were those who were European nationalists and couldn't cope with their grief at losing their European identity.

    England wasn't here nor there for that.
    What has Brexit got to do with European identity? Whether you like it or not, England/the UK is within the continent of Europe. We will always be European.

    Even your mate BoJo said that when the referendum result came in. Your pathetic EDL-lite style posturing shows through in this post.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself - but I am sure you don't care - why the Tory Party has abandoned so many people that voted for it for decades. And whether you think that's right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keep the triple lock. The UK state pension is already the worst in the developed world.

    The UK state pension comes bottom in a league table of net replacement rates for average earnings at just 28 per cent, according to an influential global pensions report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

    This compares with a 59 per cent average across the 36 members of the international organisation of rich democratic countries analysed in its latest report

    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/19/15/45490449-9803095-_Source_OECD_-a-22_1626706388588.jpg

    Including private pensions however the UK has an average pension higher than Spain and the same as in Germany

    https://fullfact.org/europe/pensioners-eu-uk/
    It won't when it gets to privateer pensioners of my age, when the final salary pensions of our parents era have all but evaporated.

    A very, very high percentage of the over 40s have wholly inadequate pension provision. With personal hindsight my advice would be forego the monthly lease payments on the Discovery Sport ( it's killing the planet anyway ) exchange that for a £1000 Fiesta and put the savings into the pension pot.

    I am in the "luxurious" position of being able to work until I drop. Without that I would be b*ll*xed, I suspect many others will be too!
    Actually the UK has amongst the highest enrolled in workplace pensions in Europe now, which will make it easier for future generations.

    France however has far fewer with private pensions and very costly state pensions Macron wants to cut
    But a huge number of those workplace pensions are going to be worthless. The size of the pot you need to retire on is out of the reach of all these new schemes the Govt has encouraged. people are going to be very disappointed.
    Given most pensioners own their own property and have no mortgage or rent to pay they don't need vast pensions, just enough to live on.

    We will also be far better placed than most of Europe to cope as we have far higher workplace pension enrolment than they do and as Macron starts to cut the vast state pension bill in France
    LOL. Have you any idea what these new workplace pensions will give you to live on?

    I wasn't making any comparison with France. I was just pointing out that most of these new pensions will be next to worthless, and I don't mean a little less than they are currently getting so ok because they don't have a mortgage to pay, but actually next to worthless. Many will only be paying out the equivalent of the low tens of pounds a week.
    Well you should have been making a comparison with France as it is the huge deficit France has from its vast state pensions bill that is forcing Macron to make cuts while France is far behind us on the number enrolled in workplace pensions.

    Workplace pensions come on top of the state pension of course and most pensioners have no mortgage, no rent to pay and no commute and train fares to pay either
This discussion has been closed.