Interesting article. But you could say instead of the Tories: C&A fits a long tradition of LD byelections in Tory seats. In B&S the Tories polled better (34.4%) than in 2010 and 2015. So possibly less to see here than people think.
Or indeed, you could entitle the article
"TWO BY-ELECTION FLOPS FOR THE LIBDEMS" or "TWO BY-ELECTION FLOPS FOR LABOUR".
The only person who definitely out-performed expectation in B&S was George Galloway.
Interesting article. But you could say instead of the Tories: C&A fits a long tradition of LD byelections in Tory seats. In B&S the Tories polled better (34.4%) than in 2010 and 2015. So possibly less to see here than people think.
Or indeed, you could entitle the article
"TWO BY-ELECTION FLOPS FOR THE LIBDEMS" or "TWO BY-ELECTION FLOPS FOR LABOUR".
The only person who definitely out-performed expectation in B&S was George Galloway.
Since my father came out of retirement to help the NHS during the pandemic is he now able to use the post nominal GC after his name?
It is all NHS workers past or present.
Hurrah.
Can’t wait for the medal to arrive.
I worked in the kitchen of Basingstoke DGH when I was a kid. Does that mean I get one too 😂
No, hospital food is rubbish, anyone involved in that should consider themselves lucky they aren't facing charges of crimes against humanity.
It varies markedly. When I was at Guidford Hospital the local college had its catering students on placement, and the food was excellent. St James Hospital Balham (closed) had superb Italian catering staff, brought over in the 1950s. Lincoln does an excellent cooked breakfast, and traditional steamed puddings are usually a good bet most hospitals as they cook better on a large scale. The salads are usually poor. The ethnic menus are worth a perusal as often catered in by local restaurants.
A few years ago I visited a friend in hospital at Tameside hospital and the food was up there with a Little Thief Chef.
Although I think it was Doncaster hospital which now has a Subway, which I thought was nice.
And there's a heartkiller menu in one of the staff facilities, which is OK but for some reason gets quite overpriced at lunchtime compared to breakfast.
A PB problem is that people remember things from 30 years ago when they were under 30 :-) .
A friend asked whether he should have his operation on the NHS or privately. The doctor told him the procedure would be the same on the private ward but afterwards he would get a better sandwich.
It's a long, long time since Shipman was an NHS staff member. As a GP he was an independent individual contracting to provide certain services to the NHS.
As an NHS pensioner, I wonder if I'll get one!
I would say that you are included. I don't think that we get physical medals. Though my Trust did give out Covid Service medals, in physical form.
Even if you don't get a physical medal , can you still put the initials after your name?
I’d be surprised - it’s an award to the organisation. Malta might be a good precedent?
I was thinking of that one - Malta got a single collective GC and it's in the national museum at Valetta...
I was wondering what had happened there. I've never come across a Maltese who put GC after their name. Even one or two were were actually alive during the Siege.
According to the daily Mail…. Some residents still use “Malta GC” on letters
And there's a heartkiller menu in one of the staff facilities, which is OK but for some reason gets quite overpriced at lunchtime compared to breakfast.
A PB problem is that people remember things from 30 years ago when they were under 30 :-) .
Glad you said that. The grub during my recent 10 day sojourn at St. Peter's in Chertsey was more than agreeably acceptable. I should have booked a longer stay!
Does anyone else here watch Countryfile? Interesting comment last night that, due to Brexit, lamb prices had gone through the roof, to the benefit of sheep farmers.
Yes. We were surprised at the comment, given the doom and gloom we have heard from farming representatives.
And there's a heartkiller menu in one of the staff facilities, which is OK but for some reason gets quite overpriced at lunchtime compared to breakfast.
A PB problem is that people remember things from 30 years ago when they were under 30 :-) .
Glad you said that. The grub during my recent 10 day sojourn at St. Peter's in Chertsey was more than agreeably acceptable. I should have booked a longer stay!
Hopefully the grub we shall have when we meet up next month will be equally acceptable.
Interested in the award of the GC. And whether that will mean that all NHS staff who have been employed during the pandemic get to have GC after their name?
What weight does such a symbol carry in today's culture?
And what does it mean if politicised? Imo inevitably. I wonder if the Unions will start using a line such as "Thank-you nicely, but where's the payrise", TUs being intensely materialistic in practice?".
The best analogue I think I can come up with is Malta's GC.
Just reflecting.
Of course no-one who works in the NHS or has worked is entitled to the initials. Its like when the IPCC (climate, not cricket) were awarded the Nobel, and some of those on it tried to claim they were Nobel laureates. No, you're not.
Someone else has posted this is a classic political gesture. I'm sure many if not most of the NHS has had an extremely difficult time, and many sadly have lost their lives to Covid. We should all be extremely grateful for the hard work and dedication of these people. But not all in the NHS will have had the same experience. My GP surgery is currently like Fort Knox. They have pushed access mostly onto online and the phones, which for me is fine, but not for all. Patients must wait outside until called in.
I congratulate those who have worked for us all so hard on this, and I hope it brings some pleasure.
And there's a heartkiller menu in one of the staff facilities, which is OK but for some reason gets quite overpriced at lunchtime compared to breakfast.
A PB problem is that people remember things from 30 years ago when they were under 30 :-) .
Glad you said that. The grub during my recent 10 day sojourn at St. Peter's in Chertsey was more than agreeably acceptable. I should have booked a longer stay!
Hopefully the grub we shall have when we meet up next month will be equally acceptable.
Touche..lol...doubt our sumptuous fayre will be wheeled out on an ancient trolley!
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
This afternoon's presser (and lip service to Parliament).
The Prime Minister will host a press conference this afternoon (Monday 5th July) to set out plans for the final step of the Roadmap in England, giving businesses and the public more time to prepare.
Since my father came out of retirement to help the NHS during the pandemic is he now able to use the post nominal GC after his name?
It is all NHS workers past or present.
Hurrah.
Can’t wait for the medal to arrive.
I worked in the kitchen of Basingstoke DGH when I was a kid. Does that mean I get one too 😂
No, hospital food is rubbish, anyone involved in that should consider themselves lucky they aren't facing charges of crimes against humanity.
I’ll never forget, sitting with my wife in the maternity ward, the coffee trolley paying a visit.
“Coffee please,” said my wife, before being handed some cremated gerbil in boiling water.
“Coffee too, please” I said.
“One drink per bed,” the orderly snarled, then trundled to the next room.
When I was in hospital for the best part of 5 weeks being treated for leukemia, I managed to lose about three stone. Now it could have been the diarrhea associated with the chemo, but to be honest it was mainly the indescribably bad food (not helped by taste buds not being quite right either). It didn't help that hospitals feed people as if they are all in the 80's. Breakfast often before 7 (by the night shift before they go). Lunch, the main meal around 12. Supper (I mean really), which was a sandwich, fruit pot and that was about is at 6. The sandwich bread was the cheapest, nastiest bread I've ever seen. Once I was served a bowl of soup that look like what you get in the washing up bowl after washing old soup bowls. Apparently it was minestrone. In case i was imagining it I checked with the wife, but she confirmed it. I know money is tight in the NHS but the folly seems to be this idea that every meal must be healthy and balanced etc. If you are in being treated for cancer, surely a few more sugery puddings wouldn't kill you and a few more chips? Might cheer you up?
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
And there's a heartkiller menu in one of the staff facilities, which is OK but for some reason gets quite overpriced at lunchtime compared to breakfast.
A PB problem is that people remember things from 30 years ago when they were under 30 :-) .
Glad you said that. The grub during my recent 10 day sojourn at St. Peter's in Chertsey was more than agreeably acceptable. I should have booked a longer stay!
Hopefully the grub we shall have when we meet up next month will be equally acceptable.
Touche..lol...doubt our sumptuous fayre will be wheeled out on an ancient trolley!
You never know, our venue has a very working men's club feel to it.
Out of the three recent by elections , the tories won the one they were least odds-on to do so. We have definitely had peak tory and the odds did not recognise it last month - I expect they will in the future
If we'd had 3 by-elections in the north-east the Tories would have done well in all of them. It just depends where the by-elections happen to be, which is totally unpredictable. On the other hand, if we'd just had 3 by-elections in Cambridge, Oxford and Brighton, everyone would be saying Labour and/or the Greens are heading for a big majority at the next election.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
We wouldn't allow a member of a fascist party to be in an important position. We shouldn't allow communists to do so either.
Mr. Tubbs, my mother's friend was less than impressed with her last medical appointment (GP, I think). She asked them to have a quick look at their knee, but they refused, citing an appointment a couple of weeks away. But it's a telephone appointment, so they won't be looking at it then at all...
Elizabeth’s handwriting is surprisingly confident for a 90-odd year old.
I also notice she seems to be enjoying herself in her public outings.
She's been confined to palaces and their grounds which is better than most, but for someone who has spent 75 years making small talk with people out and about it may still have been a bummer.
It's a long, long time since Shipman was an NHS staff member. As a GP he was an independent individual contracting to provide certain services to the NHS.
As an NHS pensioner, I wonder if I'll get one!
I would say that you are included. I don't think that we get physical medals. Though my Trust did give out Covid Service medals, in physical form.
Even if you don't get a physical medal , can you still put the initials after your name?
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
Sometimes I think there's a little shop somewhere on the Bayswater Road. Inside, cages contain slavering scientists fed with copies of the Guardian and New Scientist. Outside, a whip-carrying man shouts his trade.
"Roll up! roll up! Pick your scientist here! All views on offer! Choose the one that best fits your own! All highly qualified! Roll up! Roll up! Special offers on media-experienced narcissists! We've got physicists, biologists, chemists, geologists... all willing to opine outside their speciality! Roll up! Roll up!"
(Salesman): "Ah, hello sir!"
(Customer): "Ah, yes. I'd like someone to opine that Covid means the extinction of all mankind."
(Salesman twitches his moustache as he leads the customer to a foul, dark cage) "Ah sir, I have the very one. This gentleman here is a theoretical physicist; he's been on BBC, ITV and Sky, writes regularly for The Guardian and the Mail."
(Customer examines the scientist's hooves and teeth) "Wasn't this one on Sky just last week, saying that Covid was all a fiction and we should get back to normal immediately?"
(Salesman): "Ah yes, sir. All my scientists are quantum-trained: capable of holding three thousand views consecutively. They all collapse down to one view once they know that you want it to be."
Brilliant! I'd believe it.
I know headlines are hard, but when I see 'scientists warn' I just groan. I swear one time it was singular.
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
“Wokeism” a top 3 cause of concern among British voters. Focus groups & polls suggest "woke" versus "non-woke" is becoming a bigger divide in the UK than north v south, cities v rural, women v men, young v old -says US pollster Frank Luntz"
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
Fly them over to Eastern Europe and perform the operations there.
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
Fly them over to Eastern Europe and perform the operations there.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
Indeed. Maoism was founded on the hatred of certain classes of people. There was not future for them - no chance to embrace the new world. In Russia the state was for the workers, but declared war on the peasants. Wrong kind of working class, clearly.
Not even No 10 will tell us what time it is. They are normally at 17:00 but Boris has done some more significant press conferences later in the evening
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
Your intentions when you shoot people in the back of the neck and kick their bodies into a ditch makes all the difference.
Not so sure that the people in the ditch feel that way.....
The end certainly doesn't justify the means.
The means illuminate the morality of the end though, I think.
“Wokeism” a top 3 cause of concern among British voters. Focus groups & polls suggest "woke" versus "non-woke" is becoming a bigger divide in the UK than north v south, cities v rural, women v men, young v old -says US pollster Frank Luntz"
Since when has the party of government failing to win a seat from the opposition at a by-election, been considered a flop?
Compared with Hartlepool this is a flop for the Tories specially as the blue team had the enormous help from GG.
So anything which doesn't match by far the biggest swing to a government in a byelection is now a 'flop' ?
In which case every government has flopped in every byelection anyone can remember.
You're correct in saying the Conservatives were complacent but biased/ignorant about not realising that B&S was significantly different to Hartlepool. A bias/ignorance shared by the media and the markets.
And some people were pointing out that Labour should be favourites and were excellent value from May onwards.
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
I know, but one effect of contracting out is the sidelining of projects that increase permanent capacity. Chief amongst these is postgraduate training. We have junior doctors that have not operated or done a cardiac catheter etc in a year. Contracting out never involves training, and indeed directly interferes with it, by stripping out experienced trainers and bread and butter cases.
Not even No 10 will tell us what time it is. They are normally at 17:00 but Boris has done some more significant press conferences later in the evening
He won't want to be up against Emma Raducanu in the Tennis.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
The NHS has long been "a religion that can do no wrong", as a result of years of propaganda by successive governments. Anyone that questions it is closed down for attacking those "hard working doctorsanurses". There are some great people in the NHS as there are in all organisations, and as in all organisations, there are also some very bad ones.
I have worked with the NHS and a number of other healthcare delivery organisations across Europe. The NHS is not "the envy" of anyone, let alone the world. Essentially "the NHS" is a bureaucracy, in the same way as the civil service is. Our collective supine attitude toward it is downright irrational and silly.
— just 17% think Starmer can beat Johnson — 45% of Lab voters want Burnham as leader, 34% of the public think he'd be better too — but Rayner bombs with voters
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
I know, but one effect of contracting out is the sidelining of projects that increase permanent capacity. Chief amongst these is postgraduate training. We have junior doctors that have not operated or done a cardiac catheter etc in a year. Contracting out never involves training, and indeed directly interferes with it, by stripping out experienced trainers and bread and butter cases.
I think the point is that the backlog is so big that the NHS would continue to function at full capacity anyway so would that be an issue?
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
Certainly running everything locally is a pain. It would make sense to manage supply and demand across the whole country. I'm happy to travel anywhere in the country (indeed out of it) for an operation, and for example you could have a massive MRI scanning facility in Birmingham. Leave local services for those who need them.
1. It doesn’t seem very effective compared with European systems, except on “value for money”.
2. It’s impossible to get an appointment with my GP unless you are actually dying.
3. On the few occasions I’ve had first hand experience (maternity, child stuff), the doctors, paramedics and nurses have been brilliant but the facilities and “customer service” have all been crap.
4. I note the people in my circle are increasingly using private services even for GP stuff, probably because of (2), and I worry that the NHS will become a “poor people only” service with implications for both quality of service and funding.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
Indeed. Maoism was founded on the hatred of certain classes of people. There was not future for them - no chance to embrace the new world. In Russia the state was for the workers, but declared war on the peasants. Wrong kind of working class, clearly.
In both Russia and China, the "Class Enemies" were re-defined dynamically.
In Russia, the definitions were quite literally modified to meet quotas for people to be arrested, shot etc.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
An endlessly fascinating question. I think the answer lies in the public face. Communism has a public face of wanting universal good things for the poor and oppressed. This of course is a wicked lie.
Fascism makes no such pretence. To any normal person its stated public intentions as well as its real ones are evil through and through.
But why so many otherwise bright liberal centrists are taken in by this, I have no idea.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
Communism is back in a big way in the Under 30s, so get used to this kind of argument (which while frustrating, does have just a scintilla of truth).
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
Sorry - I completely refute this. In Russia and China the regimes used hatred of certain classes of people in exactly the same way that Hitler used the Jews. Millions dead were not a few broken eggs, it was deliberate. Stalin could have intervened in the Ukraine to stop the famine, but chose not too. Thoroughly evil. Mao chose to export food rather than feed his own people. Thoroughly evil. Its not a crime to want a more equal society, but it is to deliberately kill people to get there.
Mr. Malmesbury, I remember reading in Stalin: the Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore (which I recommend heartily, grim reading though it is) that the death quotas were usually exceeded as nobody wanted to seem 'reluctant' to kill in sufficiently large numbers.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
I’d rather see more local accountability.
The NHS should be run on county or metro lines, although I can imagine nation-wide centres of excellence on the lines you mention.
“Wokeism” a top 3 cause of concern among British voters. Focus groups & polls suggest "woke" versus "non-woke" is becoming a bigger divide in the UK than north v south, cities v rural, women v men, young v old -says US pollster Frank Luntz"
No, it's a concern among Luntz's focus groups. Polling suggests otherwise. https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/culture-wars-in-the-uk.pdf ...The UK public are as likely to think being “woke” is a compliment (26%) as they are to think it’s an insult (24%) – and are in fact most likely to say they don’t know what the term means (38%)....
Or to put it another way, Luntz is frequently full of shit.
Offering six vegetarian options is wonderful and a surprise. How many restaurants do that? People should stop moaning. I'm usually Mr Super-Cynic, but in this case: thank you, NHS.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
A lot of people see it that way, I find it bizarre. An insistence that motivation eclipses very similar outcomes and state oppression.
If you wanted to you could flip it around on such people to note that the likes of Stalin and Mao ended up with even bigger counts as unlike Hitler their evil did not lead to self collapse and defeat of their systems.
It's a long, long time since Shipman was an NHS staff member. As a GP he was an independent individual contracting to provide certain services to the NHS.
As an NHS pensioner, I wonder if I'll get one!
I would say that you are included. I don't think that we get physical medals. Though my Trust did give out Covid Service medals, in physical form.
Even if you don't get a physical medal , can you still put the initials after your name?
Only if you are an absolute fanny
Excellent! And In just seven words.
When the GC is awarded to corporate bodies, I don't think individuals can use the post nominal letters. It was The State of Malta, GC not Dom Mintoff, GC.
I didn't think' defunding the police' was a British issue. TBH, I'm not exactly sure what it means. If the slogan was 'Re-educate the Police' I'd sympathise.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
The NHS has long been "a religion that can do no wrong", as a result of years of propaganda by successive governments. Anyone that questions it is closed down for attacking those "hard working doctorsanurses". There are some great people in the NHS as there are in all organisations, and as in all organisations, there are also some very bad ones.
I have worked with the NHS and a number of other healthcare delivery organisations across Europe. The NHS is not "the envy" of anyone, let alone the world. Essentially "the NHS" is a bureaucracy, in the same way as the civil service is. Our collective supine attitude toward it is downright irrational and silly.
Bizarre national idolisations:
UK - the NHS USA - the constitution France - the French language Germany - beer and sausages
Another note about communism: many of its proponents I've known appear to be people who think that they'd be in charge in a communist UK; if not at the top, then somewhere in the hierarchy.
In most cases, I think they'd be put against the wall. Why? Because they're loudmouths. If Communism came, it would be the wrong sort, by the wrong people. The change isn't enough, isn't right.
The revolution they so desire would eat most of them.
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
I know, but one effect of contracting out is the sidelining of projects that increase permanent capacity. Chief amongst these is postgraduate training. We have junior doctors that have not operated or done a cardiac catheter etc in a year. Contracting out never involves training, and indeed directly interferes with it, by stripping out experienced trainers and bread and butter cases.
I think the point is that the backlog is so big that the NHS would continue to function at full capacity anyway so would that be an issue?
Yes, because that is the way previous initiatives always have. The straightforward cases get contracted out, leaving only the complex with multiple morbidity, who take more theatre time and are not suitable cases for training. It is a cycle that has been repeated endlessly over the last 2 decades.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
Certainly running everything locally is a pain. It would make sense to manage supply and demand across the whole country. I'm happy to travel anywhere in the country (indeed out of it) for an operation, and for example you could have a massive MRI scanning facility in Birmingham. Leave local services for those who need them.
Running DGH's separately from GP etc facilities was the original structure.
FFS. Four days after returning to school after the previous iteration of the bubble popping, my daughter's bubble has just popped again. Another ten days of self isolation, even though, again, she's tested negative. For - what?
The child who has tested positive has a bit of a cough. Nothing more.
Fuck you Hancock and fuck you sage. And fuck you isage. Come on Saj, sort this out.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
I’d rather see more local accountability.
The NHS should be run on county or metro lines, although I can imagine nation-wide centres of excellence on the lines you mention.
NHS regional organisation is frequently bizarre, but counties dont make for good organisation for such matters. Those in West Wiltshire invariably use Bath, rather than Salisbury or Swindon for example.
O/T: I think Mike is absolutely right about Tory complacency. The Tories main threat to winning the next election is also complacency. You only need to see some of the posters who on the right wing of the Tory party on here who think it is already a dead cert. This may not just the position of a few fanatical fanbois, it may well be a general malaise across the whole Conservative Party. The risks to the Tories are many, not least that they will be unable to find a coalition partner should they fall short of a majority. They need to be figuring how they can reach out not just to those in the Red Wall, but those in the Blue Wall that might just think it is now OK to vote LD because a Labour government now looks a lot less scary.
What is the capacity constraint on our system? Staff or facilities?
If all those people entitled to go private, went private, would that have an impact on the backlog?
Marginal gains, but we remember Dave Brailsford...
Staff - and the pool of private staff heavily overlaps the public sector pool.
There isn't a great big pile of doctors and nurses sitting about, twiddling their thumbs, asking for work....
How unfortunate.
Anecdata: When why mum had her cataracts done, the first eye was in the NHS, and the second eye was by the same Dr privately as it would be quicker.
Alot of that is because the NHS is fairly rubbish at organisation - all the doctors I've seen privately say that they got into private practise only partly for the money. It was also moving to an organisation where, if something got in the way of doing stuff, it was kicked out of the way.
Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
Yup, I said it on the day it happened, replacing Hancock with Javid is a game changer for the whole nation. Javid won't be easily fooled by dodgy data models and he will see COVID in the wider context of the nation as well as the NHS backlog which is still building up.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
Yes, I expect privatised contracting out to boom. That is a typical short termist solution, which causes staff to leave to the private providers. Staff there are mostly ex NHS or moonlighting from it. Indeed, I may do well myself from it. It is like an alcoholic hitting the bottle.
The other way doesn't make a dent in the backlog for about 5 years at least. I don't know what other options are available?
Fly them over to Eastern Europe and perform the operations there.
Cheaper, faster and supports our airlines.
Eastern Europe's hospitals might be rather full with covid patients for the next couple of years.
I didn't think' defunding the police' was a British issue. TBH, I'm not exactly sure what it means. If the slogan was 'Re-educate the Police' I'd sympathise.
This is where BLM and others have screwed up.
Defunding the police actually means reallocating funding.
For example they would ban the police from buying military grade weapons and vehicles and rather have them spend that money on community policing.
Fun fact in a lot of states in America when the police carry out a no knock warrant and blow off the front of your house to enter and they have in fact come to the wrong house, they don't have to pay out any (or very little) recompense to the innocent party.
Would you be astonished to learn that no knock warrants disproportionately target African Americans and other minorities?
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
To suggest that any SAGE/indie SAGE scientist had motives that were in any way questionable was to invite a shrill pile on from any number of posters on here as recently as three months ago.
Personally I think we need a full investigation into the whole psychologists on SAGE issue to answer the following questions.
Why are psychologists on a committee making clinical decisions about diseases?
Who precisely formulated, approved and implemented the psychological techniques deployed to control the people of Britain over this period.
Whether these techniques breached international law on human rights
Whether prosecutions of those responsible under international law are appropriate.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
I’d rather see more local accountability.
The NHS should be run on county or metro lines, although I can imagine nation-wide centres of excellence on the lines you mention.
NHS regional organisation is frequently bizarre, but counties dont make for good organisation for such matters. Those in West Wiltshire invariably use Bath, rather than Salisbury or Swindon for example.
As I said, I favour accountability.
Transparency on performance, transparency on cost, transparency on service.
The current NHS is organised to avoid or actively obscure accountability.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is not a great deal of moral difference between totalitarian states, whatever the label they choose for themselves.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
As I've been asked, I don't think it's especially useful to set up lists of vileness - arguably, Hitler (seeking to eradicate whole population groups) was worse than Pol Pot (seeking to eradicate all opponents) who was worse than Stalin (seeking to eradicate random enemies perceived by a paranoid) who was worse than Lenin (seeking to eradicate actual opponents), etc., but we could spend all day arguing the details, pointlessly. But yes, I see dictators who seek to inflict misery because it gives them pleasure and satisfaction as worse than dictators who make dreadful mistakes. And in some cases they will do something that they can offer in mitigation, as Josias says. An interesting example was Tito, a genuine patriot who kept a country together which later fell horrifically apart - but who was a dictator all the same.
I always felt and suppose I still feel that the underlying idea of communism was attractive (and better than Nazism, which is based on the idea of inherent superiorty of races and the right to enslave other races) - from each according to ability, to each according to need. For what it's worth, it's how I try to live. But it quite evidently doesn't work as a system of government, and is often associated with murderous dictatorship, which makes it totally unacceptable however good the intentions. Even in the days in the 60s when I was a communist, it was always on the Eurocommunist model pioneered by Berlinguer - an attempt to make the ideas work in a civilised democratic framework.
Tried to give an honest answer there. But it's all very historical - as a system of government, both models are utterly discredited.
Incidentally, I had relatives who lived under Stalin. One was political, a keen left-winger who returned to Russia from exile to help the Soviet state. He was sent to the Gulag and is assumed to have died there, for not having precisely the right views. The others never left till the 80s, and just got by, keeping their heads down and never expressing any opinions about anything.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
Communism didn't turn "poor countries with vast resources into rich ones". It slowed down the transition to greater prosperity and was enacted at enormous human cost. If the Communists hadn't won the respective civil wars, millions of lives would have been saved, and the countries would have made much more rapid progress. Instead of which we end up with the authoritarian bastardised capitalism presided over by Putin and Xi.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
I don't know whether this is a good idea or not, but it is a very interesting one which has never crossed my mind and one can see some obvious merits in it.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
To suggest that any SAGE/indie SAGE scientist had motives that were in any way questionable was to invite a shrill pile on from any number of posters on here as recently as three months ago.
Personally I think we need a full investigation into the whole psychologists on SAGE issue to answer the following questions.
Why are psychologists on a committee making clinical decisions about diseases?
Who precisely formulated, approved and implemented the psychological techniques deployed to control the people of Britain over this period.
Whether these techniques breached international law on human rights
Whether prosecutions of those responsible under international law are appropriate.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's some sort of mass protest by Indy Sage or another similar group before 19th July in order to protest against Johnson and Javid's decision.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
The NHS has long been "a religion that can do no wrong", as a result of years of propaganda by successive governments. Anyone that questions it is closed down for attacking those "hard working doctorsanurses". There are some great people in the NHS as there are in all organisations, and as in all organisations, there are also some very bad ones.
I have worked with the NHS and a number of other healthcare delivery organisations across Europe. The NHS is not "the envy" of anyone, let alone the world. Essentially "the NHS" is a bureaucracy, in the same way as the civil service is. Our collective supine attitude toward it is downright irrational and silly.
Its harmful to progress. Thats why awards like the GC, which should be harmless gesturing, worry me. Governments and opposition are in a constant battle to who can praise it the most.
Fascinating to read the inference that I am now shilling for the SNP to "fit in". Not sure how campaigning against them means that I am supporting them but from a paid up member of the Cult of Boris perhaps thats their logic.
Thinking that the SNP government is less shit and more credible than the Tory government isn't supporting the SNP.
I didn't think' defunding the police' was a British issue. TBH, I'm not exactly sure what it means. If the slogan was 'Re-educate the Police' I'd sympathise.
This is where BLM and others have screwed up.
Defunding the police actually means reallocating funding.
For example they would ban the police from buying military grade weapons and vehicles and rather have them spend that money on community policing.
Fun fact in a lot of states in America when the police carry out a no knock warrant and blow off the front of your house to enter and they have in fact come to the wrong house, they don't have to pay out any (or very little) recompense to the innocent party.
Would you be astonished to learn that no knock warrants disproportionately target African Americans and other minorities?
In fact, what they actually want in the BLM movement in America, when it is articulated, is something much closer to UK policing. Policing as a social service.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
To suggest that any SAGE/indie SAGE scientist had motives that were in any way questionable was to invite a shrill pile on from any number of posters on here as recently as three months ago.
Personally I think we need a full investigation into the whole psychologists on SAGE issue to answer the following questions.
Why are psychologists on a committee making clinical decisions about diseases?
Who precisely formulated, approved and implemented the psychological techniques deployed to control the people of Britain over this period.
Whether these techniques breached international law on human rights
Whether prosecutions of those responsible under international law are appropriate.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
I had a conversation several years ago with a friend who genuinely defended the communists on the basis that Hitler was evil because he set out to murder and kill whereas communists were trying to do the right thing for their people and were thus good people.
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
A lot of people see it that way, I find it bizarre. An insistence that motivation eclipses very similar outcomes and state oppression.
If you wanted to you could flip it around on such people to note that the likes of Stalin and Mao ended up with even bigger counts as unlike Hitler their evil did not lead to self collapse and defeat of their systems.
Nazism was different from other forms of fascism, though, as central to its ideology was the concept of unending race war, with the elimination of half the planet, and the enslavement of the rest, central to its program.
In some ways I think the NHS GC is well deserved: it has been fantastic for this country.
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
I think we are already there TBH
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
I’d rather see more local accountability.
The NHS should be run on county or metro lines, although I can imagine nation-wide centres of excellence on the lines you mention.
NHS regional organisation is frequently bizarre, but counties dont make for good organisation for such matters. Those in West Wiltshire invariably use Bath, rather than Salisbury or Swindon for example.
Yep - I was sent to Bath from Warminster for my leukemia treatment. Sadly my wife worked nr Salisbury, so every day became an epic round trip, when I could have been in Salisbury, which would be in some ways more logical.
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
As I've been asked, I don't think it's especially useful to set up lists of vileness - arguably, Hitler (seeking to eradicate whole population groups) was worse than Pol Pot (seeking to eradicate all opponents) who was worse than Stalin (seeking to eradicate random enemies perceived by a paranoid) who was worse than Lenin (seeking to eradicate actual opponents), etc., but we could spend all day arguing the details, pointlessly. But yes, I see dictators who seek to inflict misery because it gives them pleasure and satisfaction as worse than dictators who make dreadful mistakes. And in some cases they will do something that they can offer in mitigation, as Josias says.
I always felt and suppose I still feel that the underlying idea of communism was attractive (and better than Nazism, which is based on the idea of inherent superiorty of races and the right to enslave other races) - from each according to ability, to each according to need. For what it's worth, it's how I try to live. But it quite evidently doesn't work as a system of government, and is often associated with murderous dictatorship, which makes it totally unacceptable however good the intentions. Even in the days in the 60s when I was a communist, it was always on the Eurocommunist model pioneered by Berlinguer - an attempt to make the ideas work in a civilised democratic framework.
Tried to give an honest answer there. But it's all very historical - as a system of government, both models are utterly discredited.
Thank you for honesty. It's the 'this time itll work' people that irritate, divorcing a century and more of evidence of effect in practice and what it leads to.
Trying to use the theory in a helpful way rather than slavish defence of the dogma, or treating it as harmless pablum in practice makes more sense.
Fascinating to read the inference that I am now shilling for the SNP to "fit in". Not sure how campaigning against them means that I am supporting them but from a paid up member of the Cult of Boris perhaps thats their logic.
Thinking that the SNP government is less shit and more credible than the Tory government isn't supporting the SNP.
At least it has a majority vote from the public. (If you include the Greens, of course!)
Why is communism regarded as more acceptable than fascism? They're equally as bad.
Its my perennial rant. Why was John McDonald not excoriated for producing Mao's little red book in the house? Imagine if someone had brought in Mein Kampf? Mao was every bit as evil as Hitler, and with every bit the hidious impact on peoples lives. And don't get me started on Stalin.
This will be one for someone like Nick Palmer to answer.
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
The omelette quote is from Robespierre. It doesn't mean "A few people will get hurt in the achievement of an aim that is good overall", or "The end justifies the means". It means "You can't overthrow the ruling class without overthrowing the ruling class and defeating it and those who will defend it". It is meant to be a statement of the obvious, almost a tautology. That is why he says "omelette". An omelette is what you make from what you get from eggshells you have broken.
Comments
"TWO BY-ELECTION FLOPS FOR THE LIBDEMS" or "TWO BY-ELECTION FLOPS FOR LABOUR".
The only person who definitely out-performed expectation in B&S was George Galloway.
Although I think it was Doncaster hospital which now has a Subway, which I thought was nice.
https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1411934871698739202?s=21
Someone else has posted this is a classic political gesture. I'm sure many if not most of the NHS has had an extremely difficult time, and many sadly have lost their lives to Covid. We should all be extremely grateful for the hard work and dedication of these people. But not all in the NHS will have had the same experience. My GP surgery is currently like Fort Knox. They have pushed access mostly onto online and the phones, which for me is fine, but not for all. Patients must wait outside until called in.
I congratulate those who have worked for us all so hard on this, and I hope it brings some pleasure.
I've heard one suggestion that the testing system be cut back within a few months and then the money from that is ploughed into contracting private sector providers to cut the backlog in half by the end of next year. That instinctively feels like a Javid solution of working with what's available not arsing about trying to solve the decades old problem of getting more doctors and nurses for the NHS to build up capacity.
https://twitter.com/666oldcodger/status/1411938942702788611?s=21
The Prime Minister will host a press conference this afternoon (Monday 5th July) to set out plans for the final step of the Roadmap in England, giving businesses and the public more time to prepare.
The Health and Social Care Secretary will announce the plans to Parliament.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-to-set-out-plans-ahead-of-step-4
Con 42%
Lab 31%
LD 10%
Green 6%
SNP 5%
REFUK 3%
Oths 2%
Plaid 1%
I know money is tight in the NHS but the folly seems to be this idea that every meal must be healthy and balanced etc. If you are in being treated for cancer, surely a few more sugery puddings wouldn't kill you and a few more chips? Might cheer you up?
However: I don't want the NHS to turn into a religion that can do no wrong. My own youth was blighted by a mistake made by the NHS, which took years to correct. The Stafford scandal also shows what happens when the NHS becomes above criticism.
I fear we're heading that way, and whilst it will be good for staff, it won't be good for patients.
The NHS is staffed by human beings, not deities, and some will make mistakes. When those mistakes occur, the correct response is openness, not the circling of the wagons.
It is what Marco Pierre White is famous for.
What is the capacity constraint on our system? Staff or facilities?
If all those people entitled to go private, went private, would that have an impact on the backlog?
Marginal gains, but we remember Dave Brailsford...
https://youtu.be/uB4o5n2EGyA
I’d rather see the NHS reorganised so it moves away from physical location (DGH) and is organised on the basis of purpose
Have separate organisations responsible for prevention, triage & emergency, acute care, specialist care & chronic care. Have a minister responsible for each of these (possibly 2 not sure how many ministers there are in DoH)
Potentially even have the DGH facilities run as part of a separate organisation.
Then a coordinating body sitting on top responsible to the SOS.
There isn't a great big pile of doctors and nurses sitting about, twiddling their thumbs, asking for work....
For example The Great Leap Forward was designed to improve the lives of ordinary people, it just happened to go wrong, the intent was good which made it incomparable to the holocaust, even if more people died during The Great Leap Forward.
I rolled my eyes so much at that I actually saw my own optic nerves.
I know headlines are hard, but when I see 'scientists warn' I just groan. I swear one time it was singular.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-to-set-out-plans-ahead-of-step-4
@GoodwinMJ
“Wokeism” a top 3 cause of concern among British voters. Focus groups & polls suggest "woke" versus "non-woke" is becoming a bigger divide in the UK than north v south, cities v rural, women v men, young v old -says US pollster Frank Luntz"
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1411956979510165505
Cheaper, faster and supports our airlines.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1411695586013761539
But having talked to a few in the past, I think a supposed Stalin quote is at the heart of it: you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette". Communism may have killed millions of people for little good, but their heart was in the correct place. Unlike those evil fascists. The ends justify the means.
And there is some evidence towards that: in China and Russia, Communism (or bastardised versions of it) have turned poor countries with vast resources into rich ones (albeit Russia has descended recently). But that ignores that the west's weird pseudo-capitalist system has also seen massive gains - and perhaps more than was seen in Russia and China. It also ignores the hot messes of countries like NK or Venezuela.
Personally, the political theory I find really intriguing is anarchism. I knew someone who created a diagram of all the different anarchist groups in this country up to the 1990s, and the amount of splitting and divergence of views was quite amazing.
In Russia the state was for the workers, but declared war on the peasants. Wrong kind of working class, clearly.
Not so sure that the people in the ditch feel that way.....
The end certainly doesn't justify the means.
The means illuminate the morality of the end though, I think.
In which case every government has flopped in every byelection anyone can remember.
You're correct in saying the Conservatives were complacent but biased/ignorant about not realising that B&S was significantly different to Hartlepool. A bias/ignorance shared by the media and the markets.
And some people were pointing out that Labour should be favourites and were excellent value from May onwards.
I have worked with the NHS and a number of other healthcare delivery organisations across Europe. The NHS is not "the envy" of anyone, let alone the world. Essentially "the NHS" is a bureaucracy, in the same way as the civil service is. Our collective supine attitude toward it is downright irrational and silly.
@alexwickham
Labour reality check from this
@JLPartnersPolls
@jamesjohnson252
polling in Playbook
— just 17% think Starmer can beat Johnson
— 45% of Lab voters want Burnham as leader, 34% of the public think he'd be better too
— but Rayner bombs with voters
https://politi.co/3svJcDk"
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1411942926045831169
1. It doesn’t seem very effective compared with European systems, except on “value for money”.
2. It’s impossible to get an appointment with my GP unless you are actually dying.
3. On the few occasions I’ve had first hand experience (maternity, child stuff), the doctors, paramedics and nurses have been brilliant but the facilities and “customer service” have all been crap.
4. I note the people in my circle are increasingly using private services even for GP stuff, probably because of (2), and I worry that the NHS will become a “poor people only” service with implications for both quality of service and funding.
In Russia, the definitions were quite literally modified to meet quotas for people to be arrested, shot etc.
Fascism makes no such pretence. To any normal person its stated public intentions as well as its real ones are evil through and through.
But why so many otherwise bright liberal centrists are taken in by this, I have no idea.
The NHS should be run on county or metro lines, although I can imagine nation-wide centres of excellence on the lines you mention.
Polling suggests otherwise.
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/culture-wars-in-the-uk.pdf
...The UK public are as likely to think being “woke” is a compliment (26%) as they are to think it’s an insult (24%) – and are in fact most likely to say they don’t know what the term means (38%)....
Or to put it another way, Luntz is frequently full of shit.
Anecdata: When why mum had her cataracts done, the first eye was in the NHS, and the second eye was by the same Dr privately as it would be quicker.
If you wanted to you could flip it around on such people to note that the likes of Stalin and Mao ended up with even bigger counts as unlike Hitler their evil did not lead to self collapse and defeat of their systems.
UK - the NHS
USA - the constitution
France - the French language
Germany - beer and sausages
In most cases, I think they'd be put against the wall. Why? Because they're loudmouths. If Communism came, it would be the wrong sort, by the wrong people. The change isn't enough, isn't right.
The revolution they so desire would eat most of them.
The child who has tested positive has a bit of a cough. Nothing more.
Fuck you Hancock and fuck you sage. And fuck you isage. Come on Saj, sort this out.
Defunding the police actually means reallocating funding.
For example they would ban the police from buying military grade weapons and vehicles and rather have them spend that money on community policing.
Fun fact in a lot of states in America when the police carry out a no knock warrant and blow off the front of your house to enter and they have in fact come to the wrong house, they don't have to pay out any (or very little) recompense to the innocent party.
Would you be astonished to learn that no knock warrants disproportionately target African Americans and other minorities?
Personally I think we need a full investigation into the whole psychologists on SAGE issue to answer the following questions.
Why are psychologists on a committee making clinical decisions about diseases?
Who precisely formulated, approved and implemented the psychological techniques deployed to control the people of Britain over this period.
Whether these techniques breached international law on human rights
Whether prosecutions of those responsible under international law are appropriate.
Transparency on performance, transparency on cost, transparency on service.
The current NHS is organised to avoid or actively obscure accountability.
There is not a great deal of moral difference between totalitarian states, whatever the label they choose for themselves.
I always felt and suppose I still feel that the underlying idea of communism was attractive (and better than Nazism, which is based on the idea of inherent superiorty of races and the right to enslave other races) - from each according to ability, to each according to need. For what it's worth, it's how I try to live. But it quite evidently doesn't work as a system of government, and is often associated with murderous dictatorship, which makes it totally unacceptable however good the intentions. Even in the days in the 60s when I was a communist, it was always on the Eurocommunist model pioneered by Berlinguer - an attempt to make the ideas work in a civilised democratic framework.
Tried to give an honest answer there. But it's all very historical - as a system of government, both models are utterly discredited.
Incidentally, I had relatives who lived under Stalin. One was political, a keen left-winger who returned to Russia from exile to help the Soviet state. He was sent to the Gulag and is assumed to have died there, for not having precisely the right views. The others never left till the 80s, and just got by, keeping their heads down and never expressing any opinions about anything.
Do you have further thoughts on it Charles?
That Communism in practice has been a totalitarian shit-show doesn’t invalidate that.
Thinking that the SNP government is less shit and more credible than the Tory government isn't supporting the SNP.
Trying to use the theory in a helpful way rather than slavish defence of the dogma, or treating it as harmless pablum in practice makes more sense.