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May 17th – the day we have been waiting so long for – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    My advice is to make sure you get at least 70% off ‘rrp’ because they nearly ALWAYS are 😉
    As well as a toothbrush you need a water jet that cleans between the teeth.. saves the need for flossing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.).

    Advice from the dentist was to get the cheapest rechargeable Braun one. Unless you really need a phone app to track your toothbrushing.
    ha! Thanks will def look at those. Are they "Oral B" or is that a brand?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/electric-toothbrushes

    (but some is member-walled)
    Thanks. Looks like most of it is "member-walled".

    Surely someone on PB has a recommendation. The top two in that list you sent me are, respectively, £400 and £29.99!
    Wonder if it is simply that the current price happens to be very low for the latter one?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Topping, I would oppose such a fine.

    I think refusing a vaccine for a potentially lethal disease that's caused a pandemic is stupid. But stupidity should not be a punishable offence.

    In which case the rest of the country should not be punished for their stupidity.
    This is illustrative. You are giving up your agency in these things. As far as the government is concerned, it has worked - whether by luck or design.

    You are so beholden to whatever the government dictates that you have forgotten that you have the ability to change policy.

    Not just you of course, but many, many people. This is where we are now. Don't like a policy? Find a scapegoat to blame. In this case people who are reluctant to have injected a brand spanking new vaccine into their bodies for reasons that they believe are perfectly valid and may indeed be. Ask a 28-yr old pregnant woman, for example.
    We do not live in an anarcho-libertarian free for all.

    We gave up agency when we went down the laws and government route.

    Now I do have a miniscule fraction of agency to change those at elections and which I make use of.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Yet again Johnson has screwed this up. With our (belated) border controls and a rapid vaccination programme, we should be unlocking today without fear.

    And yet we have India. Who absolutely could have been excluded from entry keeping their virulent new variant away from us.

    Oh no, muses Liar. I am due to fly there to negotiate a new trade deal. So let's ignore the science for a few more weeks until the evidence is deafening and I am forced to act.

    Again.

    If this new pox starts ripping through the unvaccinated and he has to lock us down again it's entirely on him. What an utter utter wazzock

    Just to clarify: if we don’t get a third wave and we don’t have to lockdown will you post on here praising his boldness in making the right judgement call?
    No. We have the very real risk of this new Indian pox tearing up the unvaccinated. Had he acted properly that risk would not have been there.
    But your alternative has significant economic costs.

    He’s chosen a certain path that has economic benefit but more risk.

    Surely if he is right he should be praised and if he is wrong criticised?

    Otherwise I might have to doubt your evenhandedness
    How did blocking arrivals from India - which he did belatedly - create "significant economic costs?". Would the extra 3 weeks which was needed to stop this strain have caused any scalable economic costs at all?

    You are an intelligent man. Stop dancing on a pinhead making excuses for him.

    ADDENDUM - your point about our need to all kneel and praise him. If I let a toddler play on the motorway and my judgement that it will not get splatted by a truck proves to be correct, should I be praised for choosing a certain path that whilst risky turned out to be correct...?
    Why should he have gone against the scientific advice. SAGE bod in the Sundays yesterday said it made little difference. Are you qualified to know better? And my point earlier if a politician thinks one thing about the science (close borders) and a scientific panel says not what is the correct action?
    So if it goes against the science why has he (belatedly) shut the borders to arrivals from India? As an excuse this one is pretty crap - anyone with eyes and brain can see that we shouldn't let people travel here from virus hotspots. Its also something the government - and he personally - have said they should have done faster last time.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    Lol.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oral-B-CrossAction-Toothbrush-Rechargeable-Connected/dp/B01DY36K5I/

    I have one of these, it does the job.
    tyvm
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    My advice is to make sure you get at least 70% off ‘rrp’ because they nearly ALWAYS are 😉
    As well as a toothbrush you need a water jet that cleans between the teeth.. saves the need for flossing.
    Mine is a pro jet
    ....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    My advice is to make sure you get at least 70% off ‘rrp’ because they nearly ALWAYS are 😉
    As well as a toothbrush you need a water jet that cleans between the teeth.. saves the need for flossing.
    Mine is a pro jet
    ....
    Am googling thx. And I see a lot of them are labelled "pro".

    As opposed to amateur tooth brushers.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    For me, once you get above £70 or so it's very repidly diminishing returns. Recently got a sonicare for about £70 and it is noticeably better than the sub-£50 Braun/oral B we had before, but that, for me, is mostly due to the brush bit being smaller and pointier which means I can do my back teeth better without gagging. Also, inside of the brush head is better sealed (fewer moving parts) so doesn't get as grotty. I also prefer the vibration (yep, I know - Leon alert!) to the oscillating motion.

    We looked at more expensive ones, but the benefits seemed to come down mosty to adding phone app connectivity (gives you brushing reports etc - kinda neat but didn't think we'd be bothered to actually look at that stuff) or different modes - sensitive, whitening etc, but those seemed to mostly come down to giving you an extra 30 seconds on the timer (for whitening). Didn't seem much point. Could have gone cheaper without automated tracking of brush age (tells you when to replace it) without losing much else.

    The sonicare also has Li-ion battery, whereas the old one was NiMH, but that was mainly because the old one was old/cheap (bought from the local shop on holiday when the previous one died). The NiMHs drop off in capacity pretty fast. New one very easily lasts a week with two users.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,280
    edited May 2021

    John Harris proves once again why he's the best columnist in the Guardian by a long way

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/16/england-future-left-leaning-south-conservative-north

    We're further behind the curve of the US and the UK in Australia on this re-alignment but it's coming through. At the last federal election the constituency I live in got rid of the right wing former Prime Minister (Abbott), and replaced him with a Independent who stood on climate change action. This in one of Sydney's wealthiest areas that has always voted Liberal (liberal being the party name rather than their position which is conservative).

    Excellent article, though I think the trend is more rural areas staying solid conservative and ex industrial white working class towns becoming conservative while big cities stay left liberal and suburbs and the commuter belt become more left liberal than regional.

    For example, the big northern cities like Manchester are still strong Labour while the Tories still win most southern villages comfortably.

    In the US too while Biden won New York city and its suburbs by miles, Trump won rural New York state.

    Similarly in Australia the Coalition's biggest win was in rural Queensland in 2019 while Labour easily won Sydney and Melbourne and the surrounding suburbia
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    My advice is to make sure you get at least 70% off ‘rrp’ because they nearly ALWAYS are 😉
    As well as a toothbrush you need a water jet that cleans between the teeth.. saves the need for flossing.
    Mine is a pro jet
    ....
    Am googling thx. And I see a lot of them are labelled "pro".

    As opposed to amateur tooth brushers.
    'prosumer' in fact :wink:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited May 2021
    Big saving on this puppy.

    Edit: still a couple of hundred smackeroos though.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Thank-you for the piece @Cyclefree !

    How are we doing with this PN meetup in Lakelands later in the year? :smile:

    I want my Herdwick Lamb Chop.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    Just got back from drop off at my yougest's infant school. Masks no longer required. Everyone beaming with pleasure to be free.

    Relayed this to colleagues from work, who assumed I was horrified by this, and related stories of how no-one on Market Street in Manchester had been wearing a mask at the weekend (to which I politely ventured of course they weren't, they were outside, and most of them have been jabbed). Interesting to note how two apparently similar groups in age and background (parents at school and colleagues - both 30-50-ish, suburban big city) have such apparently opposing views on the subject.

    Junior school still requires masks, though, though kids can go in without being walked to the classroom door so no requirements for parents to get on to the school grounds.
    Reasons for this are some or all of the following:
    - junior school currently has a class out due to a positive test (child in question not particularly ill but her dad is suffering quite a lot - he was particularly unfortunate, contracting it a day or two after he got his jab).
    - junior school kids are older
    - junior school headteacher is a bit more scared of covid.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    For me, once you get above £70 or so it's very repidly diminishing returns. Recently got a sonicare for about £70 and it is noticeably better than the sub-£50 Braun/oral B we had before, but that, for me, is mostly due to the brush bit being smaller and pointier which means I can do my back teeth better without gagging. Also, inside of the brush head is better sealed (fewer moving parts) so doesn't get as grotty. I also prefer the vibration (yep, I know - Leon alert!) to the oscillating motion.

    We looked at more expensive ones, but the benefits seemed to come down mosty to adding phone app connectivity (gives you brushing reports etc - kinda neat but didn't think we'd be bothered to actually look at that stuff) or different modes - sensitive, whitening etc, but those seemed to mostly come down to giving you an extra 30 seconds on the timer (for whitening). Didn't seem much point. Could have gone cheaper without automated tracking of brush age (tells you when to replace it) without losing much else.

    The sonicare also has Li-ion battery, whereas the old one was NiMH, but that was mainly because the old one was old/cheap (bought from the local shop on holiday when the previous one died). The NiMHs drop off in capacity pretty fast. New one very easily lasts a week with two users.
    Thanks I'll take a look but hold on...TWO USERS?? Different heads please tell me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    Choices, consequences and all that.

    Perhaps we should charge the unvaxxed, eligible and sick who have been heading into Bolton's hospitals instead ?
    Certainly a case for saying if you have been offered the jab and declined for a non-health related reason, then you have elected to step outside the national health system, ie a system aimed at protecting the nation's health.

    If you get Covid, you go private. If that means your private healthcare provider declines cover, so be it. If you have to sell your house to pay for your Covid cover - well, that has been a consequence of choices made, not ones imposed.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    I'd be quite happy to let the anti-vaxxers die as an alternative.

    But there's no way I'm going to support any restriction to my life in order to pander to them.
    You mean a DNR notice for all anti-vaxers who go into hospital? On the basis that it is ultimately their own decision whether they live or die.....
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    You think it silly but I find your casual complacency disturbing. Because I know it will be replicated by this government, we've seen it before, between Jan and March 2020.

    You've just been told by a reputable news programme and there are countless senior figures from US politics and intelligence circles confirming that it's not just "grainy videos". Sonar of objects travelling several hundred knots underwater for example, radar backing up visual observations of objects travelling at thousands of mph. Satellite imagery.

    The most senior people in US intelligence circles have publicly stated that America does not have air or technology superiority over its areas of operation. There are now two formal processes ongoing in the US to uncover how serious the intelligence failure and break in chain of command is. And you and almost everyone else, just casually swipes left, because you've not been told by the BBC and Prime Minister that this is happening.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    Mine cost about a tenner from Tesco. Seems fine. Except the battery dies after about 6 weeks and it becomes a manual toothbrush because the process of changing the battery takes about 5 minutes - which is not much but is slightly harder on any given day than just brushing your teeth the traditional way.
    Apart from having to overcome my own inertia, I don't really see how any electric toothbrush can be 4 to 500 times better than mine.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    You think it silly but I find your casual complacency disturbing. Because I know it will be replicated by this government, we've seen it before, between Jan and March 2020.

    You've just been told by a reputable news programme and there are countless senior figures from US politics and intelligence circles confirming that it's not just "grainy videos". Sonar of objects travelling several hundred knots underwater for example, radar backing up visual observations of objects travelling at thousands of mph. Satellite imagery.

    The most senior people in US intelligence circles have publicly stated that America does not have air or technology superiority over its areas of operation. There are now two formal processes ongoing in the US to uncover how serious the intelligence failure and break in chain of command is. And you and almost everyone else, just casually swipes left, because you've not been told by the BBC and Prime Minister that this is happening.
    Has anyone answered the age old question of why extra terrestrials always head for the US?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    HYUFD said:

    John Harris proves once again why he's the best columnist in the Guardian by a long way

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/16/england-future-left-leaning-south-conservative-north

    We're further behind the curve of the US and the UK in Australia on this re-alignment but it's coming through. At the last federal election the constituency I live in got rid of the right wing former Prime Minister (Abbott), and replaced him with a Independent who stood on climate change action. This in one of Sydney's wealthiest areas that has always voted Liberal (liberal being the party name rather than their position which is conservative).

    Excellent article, though I think the trend is more rural areas staying solid conservative and ex industrial white working class towns becoming conservative while big cities stay left liberal and suburbs and the commuter belt become more left liberal than regional.

    For example, the big northern cities like Manchester are still strong Labour while the Tories still win most southern villages comfortably.

    In the US too while Biden won New York city and its suburbs by miles, Trump won rural New York state.

    Similarly in Australia the Coalition's biggest win was in rural Queensland in 2019 while Labour easily won Sydney and Melbourne and the surrounding suburbia
    I rate Harris as perhaps the finest British political journalist of his age. He's certainly the most thought provoking.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    You think it silly but I find your casual complacency disturbing. Because I know it will be replicated by this government, we've seen it before, between Jan and March 2020.

    You've just been told by a reputable news programme and there are countless senior figures from US politics and intelligence circles confirming that it's not just "grainy videos". Sonar of objects travelling several hundred knots underwater for example, radar backing up visual observations of objects travelling at thousands of mph. Satellite imagery.

    The most senior people in US intelligence circles have publicly stated that America does not have air or technology superiority over its areas of operation. There are now two formal processes ongoing in the US to uncover how serious the intelligence failure and break in chain of command is. And you and almost everyone else, just casually swipes left, because you've not been told by the BBC and Prime Minister that this is happening.
    Has anyone answered the age old question of why extra terrestrials always head for the US?
    Just a guess but could it be In'n'out Burger?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796
    Cookie said:

    Just got back from drop off at my yougest's infant school. Masks no longer required. Everyone beaming with pleasure to be free.

    Relayed this to colleagues from work, who assumed I was horrified by this, and related stories of how no-one on Market Street in Manchester had been wearing a mask at the weekend (to which I politely ventured of course they weren't, they were outside, and most of them have been jabbed). Interesting to note how two apparently similar groups in age and background (parents at school and colleagues - both 30-50-ish, suburban big city) have such apparently opposing views on the subject.

    Junior school still requires masks, though, though kids can go in without being walked to the classroom door so no requirements for parents to get on to the school grounds.
    Reasons for this are some or all of the following:
    - junior school currently has a class out due to a positive test (child in question not particularly ill but her dad is suffering quite a lot - he was particularly unfortunate, contracting it a day or two after he got his jab).
    - junior school kids are older
    - junior school headteacher is a bit more scared of covid.

    Would most of the people on Market Street have been jabbed? Usually a pretty young demographic. And at least one section of it has a roof.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    ClippP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    I'd be quite happy to let the anti-vaxxers die as an alternative.

    But there's no way I'm going to support any restriction to my life in order to pander to them.
    You mean a DNR notice for all anti-vaxers who go into hospital? On the basis that it is ultimately their own decision whether they live or die.....
    Another crackingly good point. And the same for base jumpers, jump jockeys, rally car drivers, and boxers.

    I think we have the beginnings of a very sensible overhaul of our health service.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    For me, once you get above £70 or so it's very repidly diminishing returns. Recently got a sonicare for about £70 and it is noticeably better than the sub-£50 Braun/oral B we had before, but that, for me, is mostly due to the brush bit being smaller and pointier which means I can do my back teeth better without gagging. Also, inside of the brush head is better sealed (fewer moving parts) so doesn't get as grotty. I also prefer the vibration (yep, I know - Leon alert!) to the oscillating motion.

    We looked at more expensive ones, but the benefits seemed to come down mosty to adding phone app connectivity (gives you brushing reports etc - kinda neat but didn't think we'd be bothered to actually look at that stuff) or different modes - sensitive, whitening etc, but those seemed to mostly come down to giving you an extra 30 seconds on the timer (for whitening). Didn't seem much point. Could have gone cheaper without automated tracking of brush age (tells you when to replace it) without losing much else.

    The sonicare also has Li-ion battery, whereas the old one was NiMH, but that was mainly because the old one was old/cheap (bought from the local shop on holiday when the previous one died). The NiMHs drop off in capacity pretty fast. New one very easily lasts a week with two users.
    I too use a Sonicare.

    On prices and accessories: read the list and work out if you need a carrying case, for instance, or the ability to recharge constantly in a glass rather than use a charger.

    One thing that some people like is a 30 second timer (via app or the brush itself) to help you brush equally: 2 minutes broken down into four quarters of your mouth for 30 seconds each. Helps with the old mindfulness!

    On flossing, I use a Phillips Air Flosser but in my experience they do not last as long as you might hope. Don't get a black one as it is harder to judge how full the tank is.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    You think it silly but I find your casual complacency disturbing. Because I know it will be replicated by this government, we've seen it before, between Jan and March 2020.

    You've just been told by a reputable news programme and there are countless senior figures from US politics and intelligence circles confirming that it's not just "grainy videos". Sonar of objects travelling several hundred knots underwater for example, radar backing up visual observations of objects travelling at thousands of mph. Satellite imagery.

    The most senior people in US intelligence circles have publicly stated that America does not have air or technology superiority over its areas of operation. There are now two formal processes ongoing in the US to uncover how serious the intelligence failure and break in chain of command is. And you and almost everyone else, just casually swipes left, because you've not been told by the BBC and Prime Minister that this is happening.
    Has anyone answered the age old question of why extra terrestrials always head for the US?
    Plenty of countries around the world have observed similar and made public statements. It's just there's a peculiar tendency in Western society to only focus on what's happening in their own country and the USA. Also, the US has the strongest military capability and will hence generate the most military led data. No-one takes any notice of members of the public when they report similar.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Seemingly good discounting for electric toothbrushes at Tesco...

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/search?query=electric toothbrush
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    Mine cost about a tenner from Tesco. Seems fine. Except the battery dies after about 6 weeks and it becomes a manual toothbrush because the process of changing the battery takes about 5 minutes - which is not much but is slightly harder on any given day than just brushing your teeth the traditional way.
    Apart from having to overcome my own inertia, I don't really see how any electric toothbrush can be 4 to 500 times better than mine.
    Is my suspicion but I do think rechargeable ones make sense.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    You think it silly but I find your casual complacency disturbing. Because I know it will be replicated by this government, we've seen it before, between Jan and March 2020.

    You've just been told by a reputable news programme and there are countless senior figures from US politics and intelligence circles confirming that it's not just "grainy videos". Sonar of objects travelling several hundred knots underwater for example, radar backing up visual observations of objects travelling at thousands of mph. Satellite imagery.

    The most senior people in US intelligence circles have publicly stated that America does not have air or technology superiority over its areas of operation. There are now two formal processes ongoing in the US to uncover how serious the intelligence failure and break in chain of command is. And you and almost everyone else, just casually swipes left, because you've not been told by the BBC and Prime Minister that this is happening.
    Has anyone answered the age old question of why extra terrestrials always head for the US?
    Plenty of countries around the world have observed similar and made public statements. It's just there's a peculiar tendency in Western society to only focus on what's happening in their own country and the USA. Also, the US has the strongest military capability and will hence generate the most military led data. No-one takes any notice of members of the public when they report similar.
    Thanks for clearing that up. Where is the body of reports from non-US countries just out of interest?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    For me, once you get above £70 or so it's very repidly diminishing returns. Recently got a sonicare for about £70 and it is noticeably better than the sub-£50 Braun/oral B we had before, but that, for me, is mostly due to the brush bit being smaller and pointier which means I can do my back teeth better without gagging. Also, inside of the brush head is better sealed (fewer moving parts) so doesn't get as grotty. I also prefer the vibration (yep, I know - Leon alert!) to the oscillating motion.

    We looked at more expensive ones, but the benefits seemed to come down mosty to adding phone app connectivity (gives you brushing reports etc - kinda neat but didn't think we'd be bothered to actually look at that stuff) or different modes - sensitive, whitening etc, but those seemed to mostly come down to giving you an extra 30 seconds on the timer (for whitening). Didn't seem much point. Could have gone cheaper without automated tracking of brush age (tells you when to replace it) without losing much else.

    The sonicare also has Li-ion battery, whereas the old one was NiMH, but that was mainly because the old one was old/cheap (bought from the local shop on holiday when the previous one died). The NiMHs drop off in capacity pretty fast. New one very easily lasts a week with two users.
    Thanks I'll take a look but hold on...TWO USERS?? Different heads please tell me.
    I can reassure you, yes - different heads. We even rinse the handle bit between uses too.

    We did used to have two, dropped down to one when one broke (were same type, borrowed the other and then thought well, why not). I don't want to shock you, but my wife and I do sometimes kiss, that's more intimate/more saliva sharing than sharing a toothbrush body - of course, you can use that logic to use the same brush head too, but we haven't gone that far. I wouldn't share a toothbrush body with the kids though, apart from anything else they're mingers (normal toddlers, I guess/hope).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585

    Cookie said:

    Just got back from drop off at my yougest's infant school. Masks no longer required. Everyone beaming with pleasure to be free.

    Relayed this to colleagues from work, who assumed I was horrified by this, and related stories of how no-one on Market Street in Manchester had been wearing a mask at the weekend (to which I politely ventured of course they weren't, they were outside, and most of them have been jabbed). Interesting to note how two apparently similar groups in age and background (parents at school and colleagues - both 30-50-ish, suburban big city) have such apparently opposing views on the subject.

    Junior school still requires masks, though, though kids can go in without being walked to the classroom door so no requirements for parents to get on to the school grounds.
    Reasons for this are some or all of the following:
    - junior school currently has a class out due to a positive test (child in question not particularly ill but her dad is suffering quite a lot - he was particularly unfortunate, contracting it a day or two after he got his jab).
    - junior school kids are older
    - junior school headteacher is a bit more scared of covid.

    Would most of the people on Market Street have been jabbed? Usually a pretty young demographic. And at least one section of it has a roof.
    Well, a moot point whether the roofed section is classed as indoors or not. Air is still pretty fresh and well-circulated, I'd say, and the roof is pretty high. But I take your point. I'm certainly not going to claim enough of a level of expertise to say exactly what makes the difference and how 'outdoors' outdoors has to be.

    And have most people been jabbed on Market Street? Most people have been jabbed. But to be honest, it was a throwaway point. You may be right that Market Street attracts the unjabbed demographic disproportionately, though how disproportionately I don't know.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Gadfly said:

    Seemingly good discounting for electric toothbrushes at Tesco...

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/search?query=electric toothbrush

    Forget that. Tesco's Clubcard price is the same as Amazon's price.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    MaxPB said:

    Also, just came back from my vaccine appointment, got myself Pfizered! 🎉🎉🎉

    Asked what kind of timeframes second doses are and the very, very attractive nurse said 4-6 weeks at the moment for Pfizer.

    And 4-5 days for a date with her on Friday night?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Gadfly said:

    Seemingly good discounting for electric toothbrushes at Tesco...

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/search?query=electric toothbrush

    Thanks am taking a look now.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    I see Harry is milking it for all it is worth, this time blaming his father as a parent.
    He has no conception about what life really is like. He had easy street by comparison to most people . I had a tough time with my father but I haven't spent 50 yrs bleating about it as Harry seems destined to do.

    Harry has what I believe is called his own lived experience. It is no more nor less valid than yours.
    He’s now playing in the US celeb world.

    He needs airtime.

    But he’s nothing to say that people are interested in except slagging off his family.

    It’s very sad for all of them, him especially
    Yeah, its terrible he has so little to say about the world. Its not like he has given anything back to society, wouldnt it be great if he could have set up a charity event, perhaps for those in the armed services who suffered life changing injuries. If only he had done something like that, he would surely be free from criticism from the 99.9999% in society who have done less to help it change for the better.
    Whatever he may or may not have done for society at large, what he has done since has trashed his own reputation He has tried .. FOR MONEY AND LOTS OF IT to trash that of his family in public and its just unforgiveable. There are NO excuses.
    Wait until you hear what Prince Andrew has been up to.

    Air Miles Andy is quite the parasite.
    We are not talking about Prince Andrew but I don't recall him slagging off his family for money.
    Associate of child sex trafficking ring vs I'll parent differently to my dad. Tough choice.
    Classic 'whataboutism' there.

    Andrew should be in America answering questions in court.

    But that doesn't alter the fact that Harry should be in America shutting the fuck up.

    Massively privileged brat who only got to live a life of wealth and luxury because he is a member an institution slagging off said institution because he didn't want to play by their rules.

    I have no sympathy for Andrew or Harry and they should both be cut adrift completely with no chance of return and no support.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    The grainy videos are always ‘it’. Despite the revolution in video/camera tech over the last 30 years (I mean how many smart phones are there in the U.K.?), there are no realistic photos of these supposed UFO’s, or indeed many other Fortean phenomena. I’m hugely interested in all things Fortean, but if you’d told me 30 years ago that we’d have all this kit, but the evidence would be as patchy as ever, I wouldn’t have believed it.
    Yes, given the vast numbers of prosumer gear out there (and the numbers of amateurs simply buying professional gear), the chances that all these UFOs are evading someone with Canon L series glass is a bit unbelievable.
    "prosumer".
    All the gear, no idea. Bit like Dura Ace.
    Naughty.

    Still waiting, btw PB, for advice on an electric toothbrush.
    For me, once you get above £70 or so it's very repidly diminishing returns. Recently got a sonicare for about £70 and it is noticeably better than the sub-£50 Braun/oral B we had before, but that, for me, is mostly due to the brush bit being smaller and pointier which means I can do my back teeth better without gagging. Also, inside of the brush head is better sealed (fewer moving parts) so doesn't get as grotty. I also prefer the vibration (yep, I know - Leon alert!) to the oscillating motion.

    We looked at more expensive ones, but the benefits seemed to come down mosty to adding phone app connectivity (gives you brushing reports etc - kinda neat but didn't think we'd be bothered to actually look at that stuff) or different modes - sensitive, whitening etc, but those seemed to mostly come down to giving you an extra 30 seconds on the timer (for whitening). Didn't seem much point. Could have gone cheaper without automated tracking of brush age (tells you when to replace it) without losing much else.

    The sonicare also has Li-ion battery, whereas the old one was NiMH, but that was mainly because the old one was old/cheap (bought from the local shop on holiday when the previous one died). The NiMHs drop off in capacity pretty fast. New one very easily lasts a week with two users.
    Thanks I'll take a look but hold on...TWO USERS?? Different heads please tell me.
    I can reassure you, yes - different heads. We even rinse the handle bit between uses too.

    We did used to have two, dropped down to one when one broke (were same type, borrowed the other and then thought well, why not). I don't want to shock you, but my wife and I do sometimes kiss, that's more intimate/more saliva sharing than sharing a toothbrush body - of course, you can use that logic to use the same brush head too, but we haven't gone that far. I wouldn't share a toothbrush body with the kids though, apart from anything else they're mingers (normal toddlers, I guess/hope).
    Ha! Well I appreciate that plenty of voluntary bodily fluid sharing does go on between couples but just the thought of that one was a bit yurgh for some reason! Was not a comment on your relationship, obvs.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    TOPPING said:

    Cookie said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic

    And especially wrt prosumption choices.

    I need to get a new electric toothbrush. I see they range from £500 to £40. Advice please.

    (And no, Sean, thanks I don't need it for that.)

    Mine cost about a tenner from Tesco. Seems fine. Except the battery dies after about 6 weeks and it becomes a manual toothbrush because the process of changing the battery takes about 5 minutes - which is not much but is slightly harder on any given day than just brushing your teeth the traditional way.
    Apart from having to overcome my own inertia, I don't really see how any electric toothbrush can be 4 to 500 times better than mine.
    Is my suspicion but I do think rechargeable ones make sense.
    My rechargeables have always reached the point where they need recharging after each use. Maybe the answer is to fit rechargeable AAs into one of these.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    TOPPING said:

    Big saving on this puppy.

    Edit: still a couple of hundred smackeroos though.

    https://uk.camelcamelcamel.com/product/B08TMSQ2R7
    ~£200 is about the par price. Pitty any poor suckers who actually paid £450 in the week or so it was much over £200.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    ClippP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    I'd be quite happy to let the anti-vaxxers die as an alternative.

    But there's no way I'm going to support any restriction to my life in order to pander to them.
    You mean a DNR notice for all anti-vaxers who go into hospital? On the basis that it is ultimately their own decision whether they live or die.....
    I'd put them at the back of the queue for treatment.

    And that includes being behind all the people who have had other medical treatment delayed during the last year.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    Also, just came back from my vaccine appointment, got myself Pfizered! 🎉🎉🎉

    Asked what kind of timeframes second doses are and the very, very attractive nurse said 4-6 weeks at the moment for Pfizer.

    And 4-5 days for a date with her on Friday night?
    My wife may take issue with that, CR.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    TOPPING said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    Whatever it takes. Including to self-isolate.

    For example I'm sure we could get @Dura to have a vaccine if we offered him weekend use of a Dacia Duster.
    Dacias are cool again now, but I won't have it under any circumstances as it's tested on animals.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    And every best wish for a bumper summer at The Punchbowl. Bit of a schlep from south Devon for a lunch, but I will see if I can do a detour round Cumbria on my way to the Outer Hebs at the end of September.

    Very long schlep from Dubai, but will definitely have to come and visit on next UK trip - whenever that happens to be.
    The A6 from Shap to Kendal is a great touge run. If you get passed by an Indischrot 997 Turbo with a GT3 RSR wing; that's me.
    I've done that road many times. It is a fantastic drive, especially with the roof down, wind in your hair, sun on your face. Fucking awesome!
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:

    moonshine said:

    https://youtu.be/ZBtMbBPzqHY

    Overnight in America “60 Minutes”, the oldest and one of the most sober current affairs shows in the US, broadcast this segment on UAPs (UFOs). Maybe 10 million Americans would have watched it as it aired, and it will now be bouncing around cyberspace to millions of others.

    Everyone here tends to think they are on the bleeding edge of political and current affairs discussion. This topic is leaving you collectively behind. It’s almost certainly the most important one of the last 75 years (if it turns out to be China or US tech) but may also be the most important story in human history.

    Or it might be nothing much at all.

    The idea that we're being gradually softened up for some great revelation seems a little silly. The grainy videos are probably just about it.
    You think it silly but I find your casual complacency disturbing. Because I know it will be replicated by this government, we've seen it before, between Jan and March 2020.

    You've just been told by a reputable news programme and there are countless senior figures from US politics and intelligence circles confirming that it's not just "grainy videos". Sonar of objects travelling several hundred knots underwater for example, radar backing up visual observations of objects travelling at thousands of mph. Satellite imagery.

    The most senior people in US intelligence circles have publicly stated that America does not have air or technology superiority over its areas of operation. There are now two formal processes ongoing in the US to uncover how serious the intelligence failure and break in chain of command is. And you and almost everyone else, just casually swipes left, because you've not been told by the BBC and Prime Minister that this is happening.
    Has anyone answered the age old question of why extra terrestrials always head for the US?
    Plenty of countries around the world have observed similar and made public statements. It's just there's a peculiar tendency in Western society to only focus on what's happening in their own country and the USA. Also, the US has the strongest military capability and will hence generate the most military led data. No-one takes any notice of members of the public when they report similar.
    Thanks for clearing that up. Where is the body of reports from non-US countries just out of interest?
    Russia, Brazil, Mexico, Costa Rica to name a few. It's largely irrelevant at this point because the US is moving ahead with their process and it seems no-one here will much listen to anyone but the US President.

    Whatever the eventual conclusion turns out to be for the incidents currently without explanation, this is a major political news story, given the DoD has seemingly confirmed that at least in some cases, we are not looking at data collection glitches. For example, it's certainly possible that someone somewhere has developed new propulsion and energy systems that would revolutionise life on earth if shared for civilian purposes, saying nothing about the military imbalance it implies.

    Or it might not be that and turn out to have a far more exotic explanation. Transparency of the data is key, with an open discussion without fear of ridicule. There is no other news story of comparable importance but it seems to fuzz most people's brains out.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, just came back from my vaccine appointment, got myself Pfizered! 🎉🎉🎉

    Asked what kind of timeframes second doses are and the very, very attractive nurse said 4-6 weeks at the moment for Pfizer.

    And 4-5 days for a date with her on Friday night?
    My wife may take issue with that, CR.
    If you're telling your wife, you're doing it wrong
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    And every best wish for a bumper summer at The Punchbowl. Bit of a schlep from south Devon for a lunch, but I will see if I can do a detour round Cumbria on my way to the Outer Hebs at the end of September.

    Very long schlep from Dubai, but will definitely have to come and visit on next UK trip - whenever that happens to be.
    The A6 from Shap to Kendal is a great touge run. If you get passed by an Indischrot 997 Turbo with a GT3 RSR wing; that's me.
    I've done that road many times. It is a fantastic drive, especially with the roof down, wind in your hair, sun on your face. Fucking awesome!
    It's my commute :D
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Get a bamboo toothbrush. Cost: insignificant. Does the job just as well. And when you have to replace it, take the bristles off and use the handle as a plant label.

    You're welcome.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Gadfly said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    And every best wish for a bumper summer at The Punchbowl. Bit of a schlep from south Devon for a lunch, but I will see if I can do a detour round Cumbria on my way to the Outer Hebs at the end of September.

    Very long schlep from Dubai, but will definitely have to come and visit on next UK trip - whenever that happens to be.
    The A6 from Shap to Kendal is a great touge run. If you get passed by an Indischrot 997 Turbo with a GT3 RSR wing; that's me.
    I've done that road many times. It is a fantastic drive, especially with the roof down, wind in your hair, sun on your face. Fucking awesome!
    It's my commute :D
    It's brilliant. When parents in law were alive we spent a lot of time in Kendal where they lived and drove all round that area. Happy memories!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    And thanks btw to all who have made suggestions on tooth brushes. Seems it is a case of finding the one with the fewest bells and whistles.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    I looked in earlier to find boring, repetitive stuff on Harry and Meghan. Went for dog walk.

    Returned to find we've moved on to whichtoothbrush.com, UFOs on the A6 or something, how best to punish the unvaccinated, and a distinguished poster unexpectedly using the f word. What a mixture.

    Any polls out today?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Big saving on this puppy.

    Edit: still a couple of hundred smackeroos though.

    https://uk.camelcamelcamel.com/product/B08TMSQ2R7
    ~£200 is about the par price. Pitty any poor suckers who actually paid £450 in the week or so it was much over £200.
    They probably wanted to pay that much, it makes them feel better about themself. Not everyone likes a bargain, some are the opposite.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    HYUFD said:

    John Harris proves once again why he's the best columnist in the Guardian by a long way

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/16/england-future-left-leaning-south-conservative-north

    We're further behind the curve of the US and the UK in Australia on this re-alignment but it's coming through. At the last federal election the constituency I live in got rid of the right wing former Prime Minister (Abbott), and replaced him with a Independent who stood on climate change action. This in one of Sydney's wealthiest areas that has always voted Liberal (liberal being the party name rather than their position which is conservative).

    Excellent article, though I think the trend is more rural areas staying solid conservative and ex industrial white working class towns becoming conservative while big cities stay left liberal and suburbs and the commuter belt become more left liberal than regional.

    For example, the big northern cities like Manchester are still strong Labour while the Tories still win most southern villages comfortably.

    In the US too while Biden won New York city and its suburbs by miles, Trump won rural New York state.

    Similarly in Australia the Coalition's biggest win was in rural Queensland in 2019 while Labour easily won Sydney and Melbourne and the surrounding suburbia
    Leave-voting areas in the South (and the South voted 51-53% Leave) mostly remain rock solid for the Conservatives. The hinterlands of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Kent, Essex won’t be switching allegiance, any time soon. You may see change down the M3/M4 corridors.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599

    I looked in earlier to find boring, repetitive stuff on Harry and Meghan. Went for dog walk.

    Returned to find we've moved on to whichtoothbrush.com, UFOs on the A6 or something, how best to punish the unvaccinated, and a distinguished poster unexpectedly using the f word. What a mixture.

    Any polls out today?

    Yes. Oral B 41% Braun 30% Manual 24% Whatsatoothbrush 2% Dont Know 3%
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    Whatever it takes. Including to self-isolate.

    For example I'm sure we could get @Dura to have a vaccine if we offered him weekend use of a Dacia Duster.
    Dacias are cool again now, but I won't have it under any circumstances as it's tested on animals.
    Bit harsh on the least rsoley of the Top Gear/whatever their shitey programme is called now crew.

    https://youtu.be/6U6k7H_b77k
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    Cyclefree said:

    Get a bamboo toothbrush. Cost: insignificant. Does the job just as well. And when you have to replace it, take the bristles off and use the handle as a plant label.

    You're welcome.

    There is some evidence electric toothbrushes are more effective:
    Cochrane review:
    https://www.cochrane.org/CD002281/ORAL_poweredelectric-toothbrushes-compared-to-manual-toothbrushes-for-maintaining-oral-health
    More accessible blog on the review
    https://s4be.cochrane.org/blog/2018/11/02/electric-vs-manual-toothbrushes-whats-the-evidence/

    But whether the additional cost (including environmental cost) is justified? Good question.

    Also doesn't answer whether your average person could brush as effectively with a manual, if they tried hard.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    Cyclefree said:

    Get a bamboo toothbrush. Cost: insignificant. Does the job just as well. And when you have to replace it, take the bristles off and use the handle as a plant label.

    You're welcome.

    Bamboo kitchen brushes are ace too.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Cyclefree said:

    Get a bamboo toothbrush. Cost: insignificant. Does the job just as well. And when you have to replace it, take the bristles off and use the handle as a plant label.

    You're welcome.

    Is anyone using the new toothpaste tablets instead of traditional tubes? Any good?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Alternatively people should have their medical treatment delayed so that anti-vaxxers can get treatment for covid.

    Its a question of priorities Toppo.

    My choice would be to give priority to those waiting for medical treatment over the covid infected anti-vaxxers.

    What would be your choice ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited May 2021
    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to be vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to have something injected into their bodies. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,280
    edited May 2021
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    John Harris proves once again why he's the best columnist in the Guardian by a long way

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/16/england-future-left-leaning-south-conservative-north

    We're further behind the curve of the US and the UK in Australia on this re-alignment but it's coming through. At the last federal election the constituency I live in got rid of the right wing former Prime Minister (Abbott), and replaced him with a Independent who stood on climate change action. This in one of Sydney's wealthiest areas that has always voted Liberal (liberal being the party name rather than their position which is conservative).

    Excellent article, though I think the trend is more rural areas staying solid conservative and ex industrial white working class towns becoming conservative while big cities stay left liberal and suburbs and the commuter belt become more left liberal than regional.

    For example, the big northern cities like Manchester are still strong Labour while the Tories still win most southern villages comfortably.

    In the US too while Biden won New York city and its suburbs by miles, Trump won rural New York state.

    Similarly in Australia the Coalition's biggest win was in rural Queensland in 2019 while Labour easily won Sydney and Melbourne and the surrounding suburbia
    Leave-voting areas in the South (and the South voted 51-53% Leave) mostly remain rock solid for the Conservatives. The hinterlands of Devon, Cornwall, Dorset, Kent, Essex won’t be switching allegiance, any time soon. You may see change down the M3/M4 corridors.
    Yes, Oxfordshire, Surrey and Buckinghamshire which were more Remain saw significant Lib Dem, Labour and Green gains in the locals as was also the case in more Remain West Kent eg Tunbridge Wells and a few soft Leave areas of Essex like Chelmsford.

    However East Kent and most of Essex which were solid Leave stayed solid blue and even saw Tory gains in heavy Leave areas like Harlow. You could even see the trend in London too where Labour made gains at Mayoral and Assembly level in very Remain West London but the Tories made gains in Leave areas like Bexley, Hillingdon and Havering in outer suburbia
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    I looked in earlier to find boring, repetitive stuff on Harry and Meghan. Went for dog walk.

    Returned to find we've moved on to whichtoothbrush.com, UFOs on the A6 or something, how best to punish the unvaccinated, and a distinguished poster unexpectedly using the f word. What a mixture.

    Any polls out today?

    Yes. Oral B 41% Braun 30% Manual 24% Whatsatoothbrush 2% Dont Know 3%
    LOL
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
    At worst non-vaxxers are taking a free ride on those who have been vaccinated.

    At worst, base jumpers are crazy folk who jump off stupid things.

    Both back of the queue?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    Base jumpers rarely land on someone else’s head. Anti vaxxers frequently spread disease to others, including those who cannot be vaccinated and a small number who have been vaccinated but who did not generate a good immune response.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Alternatively people should have their medical treatment delayed so that anti-vaxxers can get treatment for covid.

    Its a question of priorities Toppo.

    My choice would be to give priority to those waiting for medical treatment over the covid infected anti-vaxxers.

    What would be your choice ?
    My choice would be for people who are ill to be treated according to whatever system exists.

    What if you were in a car accident, not your fault and you ended up with exactly the same injuries as a base jumper. And he arrived at the hospital five minutes before you.

    Should you take his place?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
    At worst non-vaxxers are taking a free ride on those who have been vaccinated.

    At worst, base jumpers are crazy folk who jump off stupid things.

    Both back of the queue?
    Depends on the r0 of the variants and the sterlising efficacy of the vaccines. Those are both unknowns and come winter the unvaccinated may be quite literally in a world of pain. People are going to be seething at their selfishness if we go into another lockdown.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    Base jumpers rarely land on someone else’s head. Anti vaxxers frequently spread disease to others, including those who cannot be vaccinated and a small number who have been vaccinated but who did not generate a good immune response.
    Yes there is an anti-social element to it. But what about joyriders? Denied hospital treatment if and when they crash?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    This almost makes VAR worth it...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBsm3zULVO4
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
    At worst non-vaxxers are taking a free ride on those who have been vaccinated.

    At worst, base jumpers are crazy folk who jump off stupid things.

    Both back of the queue?
    Depends on the r0 of the variants and the sterlising efficacy of the vaccines. Those are both unknowns and come winter the unvaccinated may be quite literally in a world of pain. People are going to be seething at their selfishness if we go into another lockdown.
    We would presumably only go into another lockdown if the NHS was "at risk".

    And I'm not sure about the direct link between non-vaccinated, vaccinated and transmission given the latter are largely, but not wholly protected.

    And "depends on the r0 of the variants" is an excuse for lockdowns regardless of vaccines.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    I hadn't seen a proper image of the inflatable Corbyn stood next to at the demo. He should be expelled from the Labour Party immediately. Not suspended. Expelled. As should any other Labour MP or member who attended. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1394218824958947328/photo/1

    We've got yet another day of the Corbynites claiming Jeremy was present, but not involved. Or didn't see the racist caricature. Or didn't know who else was going to be there. It just goes on. Again and again and again. Excuse after excuse after excuse. And it will just carry on.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to be vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to have something injected into their bodies. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    The question of choice of course becomes irrelevant if immunization were to be made compulsory - so much simpler all round.And it has happened before. For smallpox. In the laissez-faire era, in 1853.

    I know - there was a much more serious risk from the smallpox jab - but then the disease was a lot more lethal, so it evens out, I suppose. And the underlying offsetting question is health care and everyone's wish to have health access to a health service which is not monopolised by covid sufferers who have chosen to take the risk.

    I don't know what the answer is, but it looks as if there are some interesting historical resonances.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK545998/

    Have to go and do stuff now anyway. Have a nice day everyone.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Just got back from drop off at my yougest's infant school. Masks no longer required. Everyone beaming with pleasure to be free.

    Relayed this to colleagues from work, who assumed I was horrified by this, and related stories of how no-one on Market Street in Manchester had been wearing a mask at the weekend (to which I politely ventured of course they weren't, they were outside, and most of them have been jabbed). Interesting to note how two apparently similar groups in age and background (parents at school and colleagues - both 30-50-ish, suburban big city) have such apparently opposing views on the subject.

    Junior school still requires masks, though, though kids can go in without being walked to the classroom door so no requirements for parents to get on to the school grounds.
    Reasons for this are some or all of the following:
    - junior school currently has a class out due to a positive test (child in question not particularly ill but her dad is suffering quite a lot - he was particularly unfortunate, contracting it a day or two after he got his jab).
    - junior school kids are older
    - junior school headteacher is a bit more scared of covid.

    Would most of the people on Market Street have been jabbed? Usually a pretty young demographic. And at least one section of it has a roof.
    Well, a moot point whether the roofed section is classed as indoors or not. Air is still pretty fresh and well-circulated, I'd say, and the roof is pretty high. But I take your point. I'm certainly not going to claim enough of a level of expertise to say exactly what makes the difference and how 'outdoors' outdoors has to be.

    And have most people been jabbed on Market Street? Most people have been jabbed. But to be honest, it was a throwaway point. You may be right that Market Street attracts the unjabbed demographic disproportionately, though how disproportionately I don't know.
    Most people *over 40* have been jabbed. Most people *under 40* have not been jabbed. Manchestoh is a haven for the younger of those two demographics going shopping with their mates.
  • TOPPING said:

    ClippP said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    I'd be quite happy to let the anti-vaxxers die as an alternative.

    But there's no way I'm going to support any restriction to my life in order to pander to them.
    You mean a DNR notice for all anti-vaxers who go into hospital? On the basis that it is ultimately their own decision whether they live or die.....
    Another crackingly good point. And the same for base jumpers, jump jockeys, rally car drivers, and boxers.

    I think we have the beginnings of a very sensible overhaul of our health service.
    And then can those persons opt out of paying for it?


  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570
    Selebian said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Get a bamboo toothbrush. Cost: insignificant. Does the job just as well. And when you have to replace it, take the bristles off and use the handle as a plant label.

    You're welcome.

    There is some evidence electric toothbrushes are more effective:
    Cochrane review:
    https://www.cochrane.org/CD002281/ORAL_poweredelectric-toothbrushes-compared-to-manual-toothbrushes-for-maintaining-oral-health
    More accessible blog on the review
    https://s4be.cochrane.org/blog/2018/11/02/electric-vs-manual-toothbrushes-whats-the-evidence/

    But whether the additional cost (including environmental cost) is justified? Good question.

    Also doesn't answer whether your average person could brush as effectively with a manual, if they tried hard.
    And you can get bamboo heads for electric toothbrushes. (They still have nylon bristles, and are probably shipped from China where most bamboo is grown, but they're still better than all-plastic.)
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    Base jumpers rarely land on someone else’s head. Anti vaxxers frequently spread disease to others, including those who cannot be vaccinated and a small number who have been vaccinated but who did not generate a good immune response.
    Yes there is an anti-social element to it. But what about joyriders? Denied hospital treatment if and when they crash?
    Attempted suicide bombers still receive the best medical treatment, so do joy riders and so should anti vaxxers. But I’m not squeamish about mandating against vaccine refusal by law, just as we mandate against joy riding and suicide bombing.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570

    Cyclefree said:

    Get a bamboo toothbrush. Cost: insignificant. Does the job just as well. And when you have to replace it, take the bristles off and use the handle as a plant label.

    You're welcome.

    Is anyone using the new toothpaste tablets instead of traditional tubes? Any good?
    Don't bother. Just use a less-than-pea-sized squeeze of toothpaste from a regular tube. You need *way* less paste than the manufacturers encourage.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    On topic (ish)

    Hawkins isn't bad but I prefer the Artichoke personally.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,462
    Scott_xP said:

    I hadn't seen a proper image of the inflatable Corbyn stood next to at the demo. He should be expelled from the Labour Party immediately. Not suspended. Expelled. As should any other Labour MP or member who attended. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1394218824958947328/photo/1

    We've got yet another day of the Corbynites claiming Jeremy was present, but not involved. Or didn't see the racist caricature. Or didn't know who else was going to be there. It just goes on. Again and again and again. Excuse after excuse after excuse. And it will just carry on.

    Makes a change for Corbyn to be in trouble with Islamophobic rather than anti-Semitic issues....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
    At worst non-vaxxers are taking a free ride on those who have been vaccinated.

    At worst, base jumpers are crazy folk who jump off stupid things.

    Both back of the queue?
    The base jumper isn't putting anyone else at risk, additionally they aren't contagious (stupidity isn't contagious, even though it does feel like it at times) and don't require special measures at hospitals to treat which end up being a huge drain on resources.

    The NHS is a resource limited service. Even a single COVID patient will cause hospitals to deny treatments elsewhere. That's what we're dealing with here. A base jumper won't do that as they will just be treated by the regular staff rotation.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
    I think @TOPPING is right, but only because I think - though I could be wrong - the number of anti-vaxxers is small enough to mean that it won't be a big problem.

    Where it might get interesting is the right for anti-vaxxers in the NHS to refuse to work with COVID patients (not sure if that's been an issue, but it might be).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    Scott_xP said:

    I hadn't seen a proper image of the inflatable Corbyn stood next to at the demo. He should be expelled from the Labour Party immediately. Not suspended. Expelled. As should any other Labour MP or member who attended. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1394218824958947328/photo/1

    We've got yet another day of the Corbynites claiming Jeremy was present, but not involved. Or didn't see the racist caricature. Or didn't know who else was going to be there. It just goes on. Again and again and again. Excuse after excuse after excuse. And it will just carry on.

    There was an inflatable Corbyn?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited May 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    Choices, consequences and all that.

    Perhaps we should charge the unvaxxed, eligible and sick who have been heading into Bolton's hospitals instead ?
    Certainly a case for saying if you have been offered the jab and declined for a non-health related reason, then you have elected to step outside the national health system, ie a system aimed at protecting the nation's health.

    If you get Covid, you go private. If that means your private healthcare provider declines cover, so be it. If you have to sell your house to pay for your Covid cover - well, that has been a consequence of choices made, not ones imposed.
    Don't be daft.

    And note that the vaccines are still only available under temporary authorisation during the pandemic, with the exception of Moderna which very recently received conditional marketing authorisation form the MHRA, so the legal basis for any such scheme would be rather dubious.
    And almost certainly wouldn't get through Parliament in any event.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
    First off, if the police are chasing a baddie and they shoot him, they take him to hospital. I doubt the baddie would be able to get an insurance policy protecting him against being shot by plod.

    Secondly, yes, if unvaccinated people get the pox (how?) then there is a risk of spreading it to those people who have been vaccinated but are in the 5%-odd where the vaccine is ineffective. That is a bad situation.

    Thirdly, while also accepting that, for an unvaccinated society, COVID is nothing like the flu, we are in a vaccinated society and hence once you consider the vaccinated, the likely effect on the NHS will be small, specialist equipment or not.

    And finally, we are talking about fundamental freedoms here - the right to refuse the government putting a foreign substance into our bodies for whatever reason.

    That is the principle that imo is worth the use of some extra ventilators.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Sean_F said:

    I just want to add my best wishes to Cyclefree’s daughter. I’m currently spending a week in Hope Cove, and planning to spend the afternoon in Dartmouth, so very much looking forward to reopening.

    Hope cove is stunning - we used to holiday there before kids meant that reasonable prices were no longer available!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796
    tlg86 said:

    This almost makes VAR worth it...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBsm3zULVO4

    lol the last 5 seconds. "fakkin wankah!"

    To be fair, I thought that VAR decision demonstrated everything that is wrong with VAR. Half a shoulder offside when measured by a computer a minute after it was given. Let the goal stand.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Scott_xP said:

    I hadn't seen a proper image of the inflatable Corbyn stood next to at the demo. He should be expelled from the Labour Party immediately. Not suspended. Expelled. As should any other Labour MP or member who attended. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1394218824958947328/photo/1

    We've got yet another day of the Corbynites claiming Jeremy was present, but not involved. Or didn't see the racist caricature. Or didn't know who else was going to be there. It just goes on. Again and again and again. Excuse after excuse after excuse. And it will just carry on.

    Makes a change for Corbyn to be in trouble with Islamophobic rather than anti-Semitic issues....
    Look again.... same old same old
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    edited May 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
    At worst non-vaxxers are taking a free ride on those who have been vaccinated.

    At worst, base jumpers are crazy folk who jump off stupid things.

    Both back of the queue?
    Depends on the r0 of the variants and the sterlising efficacy of the vaccines. Those are both unknowns and come winter the unvaccinated may be quite literally in a world of pain. People are going to be seething at their selfishness if we go into another lockdown.
    We would presumably only go into another lockdown if the NHS was "at risk".

    And I'm not sure about the direct link between non-vaccinated, vaccinated and transmission given the latter are largely, but not wholly protected.

    And "depends on the r0 of the variants" is an excuse for lockdowns regardless of vaccines.
    It's absolubtely NOT. Say all the vaccines reduced infection to the level of a common cold (I have no idea if that's correct but let's run with it) but had zero sterlising efficacy, if everyone took the vaccines the nation would be almost 100% protected against hospitalisation, save those who are normally at risk from the common cold. In any case we do not lock down against the common cold.
    Let's stick the r0 of super India variant #5 at 6.
    They'd still be worth it, case numbers would be through the roof in winter; the only people dieing would be the refuseniks - and they WOULD overwhelm the NHS.
    Now I know this is not the case but the protection against severe disease and death is greater than the sterlising efficacy for current vaccines.

    Now it's likely we won't be in this situation because the older age groups in this country are sensible enough to have a huge uptake of vaccination; and the vaccines do have some sterlising efficacy. But it's only due to mass vaccine uptake and not the numpties who have refused.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,462
    Just wondering....all this built up demand combined with still many restrictions / addition costs in the hospitality industry, could this lead to significant inflation as businesses increase prices because a) the demand is there and b) they try to make up for lost profits?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    Whatever it takes. Including to self-isolate.

    For example I'm sure we could get @Dura to have a vaccine if we offered him weekend use of a Dacia Duster.
    Dacias are cool again now, but I won't have it under any circumstances as it's tested on animals.
    Do you eschew all medication, then ?
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    eek said:

    On topic (ish)

    Hawkins isn't bad but I prefer the Artichoke personally.

    I'll get you back on topic

    17th May

    England - Pubs open
    Scotland - No-one on the planet can be sure
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
    I think @TOPPING is right, but only because I think - though I could be wrong - the number of anti-vaxxers is small enough to mean that it won't be a big problem.

    Where it might get interesting is the right for anti-vaxxers in the NHS to refuse to work with COVID patients (not sure if that's been an issue, but it might be).
    I think the number of anti-vaxxers will be small. Because you, I and everyone doesn't want another effing lockdown. As I said, anti-vaxxers are effectively taking a free rider on those vaccinated. Fine, irritating maybe but we can live with it because the principles here are more important.

    As to your other point, yes that would be interesting although presumably several such contradictions (religious perhaps?) exist in the NHS right now.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796

    Scott_xP said:

    I hadn't seen a proper image of the inflatable Corbyn stood next to at the demo. He should be expelled from the Labour Party immediately. Not suspended. Expelled. As should any other Labour MP or member who attended. https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1394218824958947328/photo/1

    We've got yet another day of the Corbynites claiming Jeremy was present, but not involved. Or didn't see the racist caricature. Or didn't know who else was going to be there. It just goes on. Again and again and again. Excuse after excuse after excuse. And it will just carry on.

    Makes a change for Corbyn to be in trouble with Islamophobic rather than anti-Semitic issues....
    Huh? Its supposed to be a Jew. Looks like it was lifted from the Running of the Jew scene in the first Borat movie.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
    First off, if the police are chasing a baddie and they shoot him, they take him to hospital. I doubt the baddie would be able to get an insurance policy protecting him against being shot by plod.

    Secondly, yes, if unvaccinated people get the pox (how?) then there is a risk of spreading it to those people who have been vaccinated but are in the 5%-odd where the vaccine is ineffective. That is a bad situation.

    Thirdly, while also accepting that, for an unvaccinated society, COVID is nothing like the flu, we are in a vaccinated society and hence once you consider the vaccinated, the likely effect on the NHS will be small, specialist equipment or not.

    And finally, we are talking about fundamental freedoms here - the right to refuse the government putting a foreign substance into our bodies for whatever reason.

    That is the principle that imo is worth the use of some extra ventilators.
    It's not the ventilators, it's needing all of the special staffing rotations and additional resources of having COVID patients with staff that are no longer able to work on the normal rotation.

    We are talking about fundamental freedoms here and everyone must make the choice, but those choices cannot be without consequences. What you're asking for is a consequence free lifestyle, where is the personal responsibility? These are people who think taking the vaccine is worse than getting COVID. Fine, let's let them deal with the consequences of that decision, not burden the whole of society with their stupidity.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,690
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
    First off, if the police are chasing a baddie and they shoot him, they take him to hospital. I doubt the baddie would be able to get an insurance policy protecting him against being shot by plod.

    Secondly, yes, if unvaccinated people get the pox (how?) then there is a risk of spreading it to those people who have been vaccinated but are in the 5%-odd where the vaccine is ineffective. That is a bad situation.

    Thirdly, while also accepting that, for an unvaccinated society, COVID is nothing like the flu, we are in a vaccinated society and hence once you consider the vaccinated, the likely effect on the NHS will be small, specialist equipment or not.

    And finally, we are talking about fundamental freedoms here - the right to refuse the government putting a foreign substance into our bodies for whatever reason.

    That is the principle that imo is worth the use of some extra ventilators.
    Bollocks to that. Our lives and those of our kids have been turned upside down in the most extraordinary breach of fundamental freedoms it’s possible to conceive. Sending an armed vaccination squad round to your house would pale by comparison, and it would be doing you a favour as well as the rest of us.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    maaarsh said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    I've got no problem if we can all get on with our lives. The punishment becomes rightly due if they are preventing that through their choice. My life has been locked down for zero personal benefit all year so I don't have much sympathy for the scruples of people trying to extend that.
    The government is trying to extend that, not the people who have made a choice not to get vaccinated. As I said earlier, this is where we have ended up after a year of such restrictions. No one seems to question the foundation of what people are accepting lock stock and barrel.

    We are talking (ok who knows how seriously) about restricting access to healthcare because people have chosen not to be vaccinated. But there is no risk to the NHS and the danger for them is no different, relatively (it is probably a lot smaller), to a mountaineer, base jumper, jump jockey or motorcyclist.

    It is unbelievable. The government has brought us to a place where we don't recognise peoples' sovereignty over their own bodies. By all means let pubs, clubs, whatever exclude those who have not been vaccinated. Fine, the market will work out what happens next. And not getting vaccinated is taking a free rider. But the government? Dear god.
    No, the risk is that by having COVID patients it causes a huge drain on hospital resources becuase it requires loads of special measures to contain within specific parts of the hospital and needs special staffing rotations who then can't work on other wards without taking loads of otherwise unnecessary precautions.

    Think of it like an insurance policy. No insurance company would cover the cost of treatment for COVID if the patient had refused the chance to not get it in the first place. The NHS won't obviously charge people but it can deprioritise them for treatment if it is not feasible to staff a COVID ward for just one person who has refused the vaccine. That one person will cause a denial of treatment to 3 others who have other issues and have been waiting for the hospitals to go back to normal for a year or longer.

    You're giving them a responsibility free way out, I don't think we should. This is the best way to not fuck up everyone else's lives with idiotic vaccine passports and other such things that would be necessary to stop them from going into pubs and bars. You're solution makes their failure to get the vaccine our responsibility to carry a vaccine passport and have our movements tracked by the state. No thanks.
    First off, if the police are chasing a baddie and they shoot him, they take him to hospital. I doubt the baddie would be able to get an insurance policy protecting him against being shot by plod.

    Secondly, yes, if unvaccinated people get the pox (how?) then there is a risk of spreading it to those people who have been vaccinated but are in the 5%-odd where the vaccine is ineffective. That is a bad situation.

    Thirdly, while also accepting that, for an unvaccinated society, COVID is nothing like the flu, we are in a vaccinated society and hence once you consider the vaccinated, the likely effect on the NHS will be small, specialist equipment or not.

    And finally, we are talking about fundamental freedoms here - the right to refuse the government putting a foreign substance into our bodies for whatever reason.

    That is the principle that imo is worth the use of some extra ventilators.
    Actions need to have consequences. I may have the right to be a fool, but am I entitled to expect the government to shield me from the consequences of my folly?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Jim Pickard
    @PickardJE
    instead of calling vaccine refuseniks “idiots” maybe ministers should be thinking up ways to persuade them to get the jab, up to and including state bribery...

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1394185134778245120

    pay them to be jabbed?

    One part of me says why should they benefit from their idiocy, but the other says, whatever it takes...
    You could make the £100 payment out to everyone that's been jabbed.
    I mean that's £5 Billion spent, but well 90% of adults have that cash in their pockets ready to spend at the pubs...
    £100 to all vaccinated.

    £10,000 fine to those who aren't to help fund the £100.

    The fine could be collected by adjusting their tax code.
    Amazing.

    This is where we are now. A govt fine if you decline to have something (created within the past 12 months) injected into your body. The last line of defence...gone.
    Choices, consequences and all that.

    Perhaps we should charge the unvaxxed, eligible and sick who have been heading into Bolton's hospitals instead ?
    Certainly a case for saying if you have been offered the jab and declined for a non-health related reason, then you have elected to step outside the national health system, ie a system aimed at protecting the nation's health.

    If you get Covid, you go private. If that means your private healthcare provider declines cover, so be it. If you have to sell your house to pay for your Covid cover - well, that has been a consequence of choices made, not ones imposed.
    Don't be daft.

    And note that the vaccines are still only available under temporary authorisation during the pandemic, with the exception of Moderna which very recently received conditional marketing authorisation form the MHRA, so the legal basis for any such scheme would be rather dubious.
    And almost certainly wouldn't get through Parliament in any event.
    Pfizer has applied for full authorisation with the MHRA for 18+, I think AZ are about to as well for 40+ and partial for 18+.

    That argument disappears within weeks.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So on PB we have broad consensus that your toothbrush doesn't need wifi connectivity if people refuse to be vaccinated with a vaccine that was created within the last 12 months they should be excluded from our health service.

    Forget whether or not the NHS is in need of "protection". Just on principle because they don't want a government mandated injection they should be shunned and DNRd.

    Absofuckinglutely pathetic.

    Oh and we have also learned that prosumer is a thing.

    Specifically for COVID treatment people who have refused the vaccine should be at the back of the queue. Refusals are different to eligibility, people who aren't eligible becuase of some reason or other would not be put to the back of the queue.

    It is time to let nature take its course for anti-vaxxers.
    At worst non-vaxxers are taking a free ride on those who have been vaccinated.

    At worst, base jumpers are crazy folk who jump off stupid things.

    Both back of the queue?
    Depends on the r0 of the variants and the sterlising efficacy of the vaccines. Those are both unknowns and come winter the unvaccinated may be quite literally in a world of pain. People are going to be seething at their selfishness if we go into another lockdown.
    We would presumably only go into another lockdown if the NHS was "at risk".

    And I'm not sure about the direct link between non-vaccinated, vaccinated and transmission given the latter are largely, but not wholly protected.

    And "depends on the r0 of the variants" is an excuse for lockdowns regardless of vaccines.
    It's absolubtely NOT. Say all the vaccines reduced infection to the level of a common cold (I have no idea if that's correct but let's run with it) but had zero sterlising efficacy, if everyone took the vaccines the nation would be almost 100% protected against hospitalisation, save those who are normally at risk from the common cold. In any case we do not lock down against the common cold.
    Let's stick the r0 of super India variant #5 at 6.
    They'd still be worth it, case numbers would be through the roof in winter; the only people dieing would be the refuseniks - and they WOULD overwhelm the NHS.
    Now I know this is not the case but the protection against severe disease and death is greater than the sterlising efficacy for current vaccines.

    Now it's likely we won't be in this situation because the older age groups in this country are sensible enough to have a huge uptake of vaccination; and the vaccines do have some sterlising efficacy. But it's only due to mass vaccine uptake and not the numpties who have refused.
    Everything you say is right. A vaccinated society will, broadly, be safe regardless of whether a minority (a small minority I believe) will get the vaccine. Look at the take up rates, in particular of those most at risk = the elderly. The subset of those unvaccinated who get the disease *and* who get very ill is not justified in terms of the restriction of freedom to determine what goes inside your body.
This discussion has been closed.