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The extraordinary range of views of Nicola Sturgeon – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586

    I would not vote Labour if they supported the death penalty. Likewise any other party.

    Such an idea is a total abomination and must never be reintroduced.

    Labour voters seem to be getting more authoritarian. I'm sure the figures would have been lower a few years ago.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    The secret of a good sitcom is to make the characters likeable and rounded. Caricatures are only funny briefly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    Hmm...Favourite is probably the West Wing although I have never met anyone in my entire life as articulate as every single person on a Sorkin show.

    Sometimes it really works, The Trial of the Chicago 7 was just superb because of that hyper articulacy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Clarkson back on the BBC tonight. Wonder whether the trio will be back next year when the Amazon contract finishes. I'm sure that the BBC would have them back in an instant.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858

    DavidL said:

    dr_spyn said:
    I must confess I am tempted. You know, just in case the worst happens.
    In case they become compulsory.....
    More for the border guards.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    The secret of a good sitcom is to make the characters likeable and rounded. Caricatures are only funny briefly.
    Indeed, it's what separates British sitcoms from (most) American ones.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited April 2021
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    The secret of a good sitcom is to make the characters likeable and rounded. Caricatures are only funny briefly.
    See Parks and Recreation, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Good Place (so most things made by Michael Schur).

    It's also why I think the best thing Armando Iannucci has ever made is The Death of Stalin - it makes sense and works for the Soviet Politburo to be caricatures! I shall never think of Marshal Zhukov the same way again.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    The secret of a good sitcom is to make the characters likeable and rounded. Caricatures are only funny briefly.
    See Parks and Recreation, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Good Place (so most things made by Michael Schur).

    It's also why I think the best thing Armando Iannucci has ever made is The Death of Stalin - it makes sense and works for the Soviet Politburo to be caricatures! I shall never think of Marshal Zhukov the same way again.
    Are you washing your hair or something?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    The secret of a good sitcom is to make the characters likeable and rounded. Caricatures are only funny briefly.
    See Parks and Recreation, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Good Place (so most things made by Michael Schur).

    It's also why I think the best thing Armando Iannucci has ever made is The Death of Stalin - it makes sense and works for the Soviet Politburo to be caricatures! I shall never think of Marshal Zhukov the same way again.
    The Death of Stalin also works because the story is demented black comedy

    Rather like Dr Strangeglove - it turns itself into a farce, with very little effort from the writers.

    Then again -

    Georgy Zhukov : Now, it's got to be tomorrow.
    Nikita Khrushchev : Tomorrow?
    Georgy Zhukov : Sorry, you busy washing your hair or what?
    Nikita Khrushchev : Tomorrow's the funeral.
    Georgy Zhukov : Yeah, the day that the entire fucking Army's in town with their guns.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355
    dr_spyn said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    The secret of a good sitcom is to make the characters likeable and rounded. Caricatures are only funny briefly.
    See Parks and Recreation, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Good Place (so most things made by Michael Schur).

    It's also why I think the best thing Armando Iannucci has ever made is The Death of Stalin - it makes sense and works for the Soviet Politburo to be caricatures! I shall never think of Marshal Zhukov the same way again.
    Are you washing your hair or something?
    Great minds....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    I would not vote Labour if they supported the death penalty. Likewise any other party.

    Such an idea is a total abomination and must never be reintroduced.

    I don't believe the Labour Party would ever adopt such a retrospective policy.

    The fact that Labour voters are minded for the reintroduction of capital punishment is nonetheless handy to bear in mind for a struggling Conservative Government, particularly one led by Priti Patel.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    I would not vote Labour if they supported the death penalty. Likewise any other party.

    Such an idea is a total abomination and must never be reintroduced.

    I don't believe the Labour Party would ever adopt such a retrospective policy.

    The fact that Labour voters are minded for the reintroduction of capital punishment is nonetheless handy to bear in mind for a struggling Conservative Government, particularly one led by Priti Patel.
    That is a surprising finding, I must say.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    I remember participating in the 2015 general election in a borders town. The mention of her name and having influence on labour in Westminster had people in a rage. The perception of a weak Labour government pushed around by Nicola and the SNP was far more damaging to Ed Miliband than his capacity to eat a bacon sandwich.

    Unless the one perception fed the other. He did not eat a bacon sandwich like a proper bloke. The way he faffed around, he looked like the sort of pussy who could be bossed around by a woman. And the voters of Middle England didn't like that.
    David Milliband stopped us going to war in Syria, for which we should all be hugely grateful.
    How about Assad’s victims? Should they be grateful too?
    Given that bombs are not famous for their discrimination, I should say so, yes.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    I remember participating in the 2015 general election in a borders town. The mention of her name and having influence on labour in Westminster had people in a rage. The perception of a weak Labour government pushed around by Nicola and the SNP was far more damaging to Ed Miliband than his capacity to eat a bacon sandwich.

    Unless the one perception fed the other. He did not eat a bacon sandwich like a proper bloke. The way he faffed around, he looked like the sort of pussy who could be bossed around by a woman. And the voters of Middle England didn't like that.
    David Milliband stopped us going to war in Syria, for which we should all be hugely grateful.
    How about Assad’s victims? Should they be grateful too?
    Given that bombs are not famous for their discrimination, I should say so, yes.
    It was Ed not David
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    MaxPB said:

    Clarkson back on the BBC tonight. Wonder whether the trio will be back next year when the Amazon contract finishes. I'm sure that the BBC would have them back in an instant.

    Too old I suspect, everyone involved has made a packet and they probably want to enjoy it. At most I could see a Christmas special for 3-5 years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Avoiding Shankill Road seems like solid advice in general.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    There was a core of decent relatable characters in TTOI- I've got to say Peter Mannion, but Hugh Abbott and Nicola Murray were also in the "decentish but overwhelmed" category, and even characters like Malcom Tucker have got some bizarre kind of integrity; you've just got to dig a long way to find it.

    The difference between Yes Minister and TTOI maybe shows the limits of low-cost creative media. With a BBC4 budget (peanuts, and be grateful that they're in the plural) a bright cast can semi-improvise something clever and funny. With a proper BBC1 budget, you get a beautifully-engineered work of genius.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Those place names maybe reappearing as a sad echo from 1970's news bulletins: Shankhill Road, Crumlin Road, Ormeau Road ...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    In fairness I did crop out the bit about which one you're 'most' obsessed with. So pick a favourite.

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    I suspect there's a reason why Yes, Minister references dominate on this site.
    Indeed.

    Though for me it is my favourite of the bunch because while the satire of The Thick of It was more biting (if hardly subtle), Yes Minister was more human. Hacker being flawed but generally trying to do the right thing, Humphrey being devious but ruthlessly competent, and Bernard trying to find the middle way, made them more sympathetic and real as people, as opposed to the cariactures of The Thick of It, who to me seemed to exist only to make a particular point. West Wing suffers from the inevitable result of 20+ episodes a season, Borgen was ok but could be dull, and House of Cards etc are just enjoyable trash.

    Yes Minister sticks with me more not only because it is so quotable and because of Nigel Hawthorne (though that helps), but because the characters worked (and they got rid of or used sparingly the ones who didn't, like Wiesel), making the points it made more powerful.
    Yes Minister is the only British political drama that I've liked - it doesn't quite ring true but it's beautifully judged as gentle satire. House of Cards is just melodramatic rubbish, about as accurate as Outlander is a careful reconstruction of the Scottish Highland clans (I quite like it in small doses, but I know it's rubbish).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited April 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Clarkson back on the BBC tonight. Wonder whether the trio will be back next year when the Amazon contract finishes. I'm sure that the BBC would have them back in an instant.

    Time has passed. Grand Tour is generally very poor, as are the other shows Amazon have made with them.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    I remember participating in the 2015 general election in a borders town. The mention of her name and having influence on labour in Westminster had people in a rage. The perception of a weak Labour government pushed around by Nicola and the SNP was far more damaging to Ed Miliband than his capacity to eat a bacon sandwich.

    Unless the one perception fed the other. He did not eat a bacon sandwich like a proper bloke. The way he faffed around, he looked like the sort of pussy who could be bossed around by a woman. And the voters of Middle England didn't like that.
    David Milliband stopped us going to war in Syria, for which we should all be hugely grateful.
    How about Assad’s victims? Should they be grateful too?
    Given that bombs are not famous for their discrimination, I should say so, yes.
    It was Ed not David
    Yes, others have also spotted this mistake. Very dopey of me.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    FF43 said:

    Those place names maybe reappearing as a sad echo from 1970's news bulletins: Shankhill Road, Crumlin Road, Ormeau Road ...

    BoZo's legacy
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2021
    I'm more surprised Macron's iMac is older than mine!

    https://twitter.com/MichaelShurkin/status/1379768862963564552?s=20
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    FF43 said:

    Those place names maybe reappearing as a sad echo from 1970's news bulletins: Shankhill Road, Crumlin Road, Ormeau Road ...


    Another great advert for the dissolution of the Union.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    Scott_xP said:
    I am surprised we haven't had the Johnson fanclub blame it on Blair's shortsightedness when crafting the GFA.

    Write out 100 times, "it is never Boris Johnson's fault".
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    The obvious solution is to drop the hated Euro name, recast it as GlobalBritainStar and bung amounts of cash in the direction of SNCF. The UK government has already bailed out that Spanish company, British Airways, which does however have the right sort of name.
  • PapillonPapillon Posts: 5
    Stocky said:

    Papillon said:

    DavidL said:

    Papillon said:

    FPT: Thanks for your thoughts @Foxy and @DavidL I have never considered refusing a vaccine and still wouldn't. The risk of death to me is low in either scenario. But I like to know as much as possible (hence the PB lurking).

    Aside from the cold logic of risk/benefit ratios, in terms of human psychology there will be a benefit of being able to say to my elderly relatives/shielding friends 'yes we've all been vaccinated', and see them relax somewhat when eventually we're able to visit them indoors.

    Completely agree with that and if the government proves brave enough to go against the consensus on PB and introduce vaccination certificates you want one.
    I will get a vaccination certificate if needed...I know I'm in the minority here but I honestly couldn't give a monkeys if I have to scan a QR code to get into an interesting venue. I already store health info on my phone, on Strava, I have a passport and I definitely had to get a vaccine to go abroad (Thailand I think), in the long distant past. What I do find utterly extraordinary, and unprecedented is that it is currently illegal for me to go round the corner to my best friend's house for a cup of tea, and that it has been so for months now. That's the kind of thing that bothers me, and it was inconceivable before last year. Even last spring, I was convinced that the public wouldn't put up with these sort of restrictions beyond June (2020). And yet here we are.
    Yet here we are, basic freedoms gone and the public tolerate it - but why? Does just fear account for this or is obedience to authority the thing or what?
    A desire to protect the people we love, coupled with a fear of being judged by our peers. I'm instinctively of a liberal persuasion - any rules or impositions on us have to be justified, and the way Covid has teased out and encouraged currents of curtain-twitching, judgemental authoritarianism in so many people is pretty unedifying. I'd happily junk all the rules and masks in the bin - yet for the thought that all of us have vulnerable relatives and shielding friends who are relying on us to make a collective effort. And that goes for me too, even though I've had it and am fit, slim, mostly healthy. So we wait, and wait, and it is dull to wait. Many people can't be bothered to wait any longer (perhaps quietly visiting other vaxxed friends), you can tell from the traffic and activity. But others I know do still stick to the rules, because they know their relatives are counting on them to get their freedom back too. I could name a few who do it out of obedience to authority, but mostly I think it's a social collective thing - the message has sunk in that our actions could negatively affect others, and even if sometimes it might not make much difference, we also fear being judged. 

    And on a practical self-interested note, most of my peers are also in their 40s and we've all got kids at school, so we've got more of a vested interest in keeping to the rules for a bit longer, compared to the older cohorts who are now vaxxed, and the younger ones who have always been less at risk.

    Once we're vaxxed, I hope we go back towards what feels like normality. I could go for a decade of 20's style hedonism right now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    The death penalty isn’t coming back, under a Tory government or a Labour one. The fact that a far lower proportion of MPs support it than the proportion of the public who support it is a ready-made case study for representative democracy over naked populism.

    Prime Minister, Priti Patel says hello. (Reintroduced after a referendum?).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725
    Scott_xP said:
    Scottnpaste is so last Yr.. who gives a fuck about twitter opinion.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    The obvious solution is to drop the hated Euro name, recast it as GlobalBritainStar and bung amounts of cash in the direction of SNCF. The UK government has already bailed out that Spanish company, British Airways, which does however have the right sort of name.
    Actually it's more Qatari than anything else.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    The death penalty isn’t coming back, under a Tory government or a Labour one. The fact that a far lower proportion of MPs support it than the proportion of the public who support it is a ready-made case study for representative democracy over naked populism.

    Prime Minister, Priti Patel says hello. (Reintroduced after a referendum?).
    Nope.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    The train service will continue running, because the train tracks, the stations and the rolling stock will all continue to exist.

    However, the existing investors will lose all their money.

    And that's capitalism, folks.
    Exactly. The British government has no particular need to subsidise foreign shareholders, when the infrastructure and hardware will all continue to exist tomorrow.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,547
    edited April 2021
    On the critical subject of eating fish and chips, while SKS is guilty of being a slightly dull person in the wrong photo op giving the wrong sort of publicity by going anywhere near eating something, he is doing two things right: He is making sure he doesn't do a Miliband - better to look dull and do nothing than look a bit ridiculous. Boris is about the only senior politician around who does OK out of being a lad and a Bertie Wooster. If you haven't got it you can't put it on.

    Secondly, in general as far as he has a strategy it is plainly to wait and hope that the times will come when Boris's wheels come off and everyone notices there is a dull, decent, respectable, uxorious, competent, alternative sort of chap we could elect who probably wouldn't trash the country and isn't nuts, and probably wouldn't sit down before all the ladies are seated. Boris's act could become unamusing if we got 3 million unemployed and 18% inflation. (Though he too would generally not sit down before the ladies are comfortable).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Scott_xP said:
    The fucker that killed Scruton. Will never willingly read a piece by him, ever again

    You do your argument no favours with these bullshit references, and your gloating about "British failures", and your exultation in British deaths
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    The train service will continue running, because the train tracks, the stations and the rolling stock will all continue to exist.

    However, the existing investors will lose all their money.

    And that's capitalism, folks.
    The complication here is that SNCF controls what happens to that hopefully continuingly running train the moment it appears out the tunnel at Calais and they are also losing most money from any bankruptcy. They will need to be onboard with whatever arrangement is eventually arrived at. Which sounds to me like a haggle ...

    That's leverage, folks...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    The train service will continue running, because the train tracks, the stations and the rolling stock will all continue to exist.

    However, the existing investors will lose all their money.

    And that's capitalism, folks.
    Exactly. The British government has no particular need to subsidise foreign shareholders, when the infrastructure and hardware will all continue to exist tomorrow.
    Yes, transport infrastructure doesn't usually need to bailed out. I don't think we should have bailed out airports either tbh, let them go under and someone else can buy them out of bankruptcy.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    The train service will continue running, because the train tracks, the stations and the rolling stock will all continue to exist.

    However, the existing investors will lose all their money.

    And that's capitalism, folks.
    The complication here is that SNCF controls what happens to that hopefully continuingly running train the moment it appears out the tunnel at Calais and they are also losing most money from any bankruptcy. They will need to be onboard with whatever arrangement is eventually arrived at. Which sounds to me like a haggle ...

    That's leverage, folks...
    Why? Unless you're suggesting that the French government would petty enough to stop a new private operator from using the French railways. Oh right I see.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    In more "despite brexit" news, WB has relaunched it's European animation studio in the UK and not on the continent as some had previously thought would happen.

    Lots of high value jobs set to be created.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    Random question but if under-30's are going to be offered a non-AZ vaccine, and we're just starting with Moderna, is there a possibility that actually 30-40's will be the last group vaccinated? Just thinking out loud.

    I mean, that'd be really annoying if it was the case, and you just happened to be in that age group, or something.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    algarkirk said:

    On the critical subject of eating fish and chips, while SKS is guilty of being a slightly dull person in the wrong photo op giving the wrong sort of publicity by going anywhere near eating something, he is doing two things right: He is making sure he doesn't do a Miliband - better to look dull and do nothing than look a bit ridiculous. Boris is about the only senior politician around who does OK out of being a lad and a Bertie Wooster. If you haven't got it you can't put it on.

    Secondly, in general as far as he has a strategy it is plainly to wait and hope that the times will come when Boris's wheels come off and everyone notices there is a dull, decent, respectable, uxorious, competent, alternative sort of chap we could elect who probably wouldn't trash the country and isn't nuts, and probably wouldn't sit down before all the ladies are seated. Boris's act could become unamusing if we got 3 million unemployed and 18% inflation. (Though he too would generally not sit down before the ladies are comfortable).

    Exactly. When we all tire of Boris, the county will want someone like Keir. And it is "when" not "if". And when we tire of Boris, Instagram Rishi is not going to be enough of a change to satisfy.

    The trouble is that having someone like Keir as LotO possibly extends the time before we all tire of Boris.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Random question but if under-30's are going to be offered a non-AZ vaccine, and we're just starting with Moderna, is there a possibility that actually 30-40's will be the last group vaccinated? Just thinking out loud.

    I mean, that'd be really annoying if it was the case, and you just happened to be in that age group, or something.

    No, it will just continue as before. The AZ supply is all going to be used for second doses anyway.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited April 2021

    Random question but if under-30's are going to be offered a non-AZ vaccine, and we're just starting with Moderna, is there a possibility that actually 30-40's will be the last group vaccinated? Just thinking out loud.

    I mean, that'd be really annoying if it was the case, and you just happened to be in that age group, or something.

    I don't think that would happen, but it would be bloody typical to work out way down with one set of vaccines, and up with the other, so that people in their mid 30s are the very last covered.

    Says someone in the 34-35 range.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?
    I was having fun.

    Random question but if under-30's are going to be offered a non-AZ vaccine, and we're just starting with Moderna, is there a possibility that actually 30-40's will be the last group vaccinated? Just thinking out loud.

    I mean, that'd be really annoying if it was the case, and you just happened to be in that age group, or something.

    No - but whether the NHS will keep using AZ for the 30-49 cohorts for want of supply of alternatives, or if they'll start giving it away abroad once there's enough in storage to complete the required second doses, who can say?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    I dislike the reboot House of Cards because it piles stupidity up - a Machiavellian Democratic President who tries to set fire to the Democratic Party platform for... lols?

    It would have been much more interesting to see him use the policies supported by his party to his own advantage.

    The rest are all interesting in the their own ways.
    Does reboot mean the American version. I really liked the series with he who must not be named in them but kinda lost interest once he was booted out of the reboot.
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    I don't know about the principle argument, but I did like the idea of judging people based on which political show they like best.

    If you love Yes Minister, you’re sceptical about the motivations of the civil service, and expect a benign level of good natured bumbling from political leaders. You’re probably over 50 and you have no expectation that the government ever accomplishes much but you don’t mind.

    If you still love The Thick of It, then you think politicians, voters and the media are the problem. If you love Borgen, then you’re probably a Lib Dem: you want the small party to be in charge just because they’re centrists.

    I think the latest crop of special advisers are different. They’re more likely to be fans of the Netflix reboot of House of Cards, Scandal or Designated Survivor. They consider politics a ruthless game played by brilliant backstabbers. Government policy is largely subordinate to playing and winning the game.

    Those remaining die-hard West Wing addicts circulating in Westminster think they’re the good guys. They love the show, as Blair’s people did, because it shows good people trying to do the right thing, and mostly succeeding. They have fallen for what I call the Sorkin Delusion: that being clever, articulate and brave is the pathway to success


    https://unherd.com/thepost/westminster-has-a-west-wing-problem/

    And if you like all of them, like me, I take it your just confused?
    I dislike the reboot House of Cards because it piles stupidity up - a Machiavellian Democratic President who tries to set fire to the Democratic Party platform for... lols?

    It would have been much more interesting to see him use the policies supported by his party to his own advantage.

    The rest are all interesting in the their own ways.
    Does reboot mean the American version. I really liked the series with he who must not be named in them but kinda lost interest once he was booted out of the reboot.
    I presumed the American series.

    The writing just more and more stupid.
    I tried to rewatch the UK version recently. It was hard work
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,431

    Random question but if under-30's are going to be offered a non-AZ vaccine, and we're just starting with Moderna, is there a possibility that actually 30-40's will be the last group vaccinated? Just thinking out loud.

    I mean, that'd be really annoying if it was the case, and you just happened to be in that age group, or something.

    I don’t actually think much has changed and expect under 30’s are still heading for a one shot J&J jab and go. I think we’ll also stick to the roll out plan, as we have done so admirably so far in the face of countless special interest wailing (teachers/police officers/shop workers etc, delete as applicable).
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited April 2021

    algarkirk said:

    On the critical subject of eating fish and chips, while SKS is guilty of being a slightly dull person in the wrong photo op giving the wrong sort of publicity by going anywhere near eating something, he is doing two things right: He is making sure he doesn't do a Miliband - better to look dull and do nothing than look a bit ridiculous. Boris is about the only senior politician around who does OK out of being a lad and a Bertie Wooster. If you haven't got it you can't put it on.

    Secondly, in general as far as he has a strategy it is plainly to wait and hope that the times will come when Boris's wheels come off and everyone notices there is a dull, decent, respectable, uxorious, competent, alternative sort of chap we could elect who probably wouldn't trash the country and isn't nuts, and probably wouldn't sit down before all the ladies are seated. Boris's act could become unamusing if we got 3 million unemployed and 18% inflation. (Though he too would generally not sit down before the ladies are comfortable).

    Exactly. When we all tire of Boris, the county will want someone like Keir. And it is "when" not "if". And when we tire of Boris, Instagram Rishi is not going to be enough of a change to satisfy.

    The trouble is that having someone like Keir as LotO possibly extends the time before we all tire of Boris.
    Which county is that then? :smile:

    Anyway, remember what it was like waiting for the country to tire of Tony Blair? Because I do.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,617
    A vaccination question for the medical experts.

    If having a first dose of a vaccine doesn't have any negative effects does that suggest that having a second dose will also not have any negative effects ?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited April 2021

    The death penalty isn’t coming back, under a Tory government or a Labour one. The fact that a far lower proportion of MPs support it than the proportion of the public who support it is a ready-made case study for representative democracy over naked populism.

    It has never been a party political issue - having been abolished via a Private Member's Bill in the mid-1960s. White working class voters have always tended to support it - and the return of flogging.Looking back at the debates of that era, I find it surprising how quite a few leftish Tories - such as Reginald Maudling - supported its return, whilst right wingers such as Enoch Powell and Keith Joseph were strongly opposed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    I know, I had a badly diabetic partner for a while. Knowing that kinda made it worse. She was doing a populist thing in a cack-handed way that probably made her more unpopular, the Ed Miliband bacon sandwich was the same

    People like authenticity, they reject the obviously bogus quite fiercely. You have to be a very accomplished actor to bring off a totally fake persona. Boris might be one (I am not sure), Harold Wilson was apparently another (the pipe v the cigar)

    Corbyn was authentically himself, which is why he got away with insane terrible policies in 2017. It really helps

    Blair was himself and relaxed and won. Brown was not, and awkward, and lost. Sturgeon is a good fake, Salmond is himself, Davidson was good.

    Starmer seems reasonably himself. He accepts he is not terribly exciting, and does not pretend otherwise. I suspect the British might give him a second chance if he persists. However, given his boring-ness, he will need some good, eye-catching policies
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    edited April 2021

    Random question but if under-30's are going to be offered a non-AZ vaccine, and we're just starting with Moderna, is there a possibility that actually 30-40's will be the last group vaccinated? Just thinking out loud.

    I mean, that'd be really annoying if it was the case, and you just happened to be in that age group, or something.

    No, it's always adults upwards of x age. So adults upwards of 20 would include 30s.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this

    Girl, 19, is arguably being perfectly sensible. She may well have concluded that her risk of harm from Covid-19, and even Long Covid, was very low to begin with, and she already has the bulk of the protection she's going to get from dose 1. Somebody of her age, unless perhaps her health is seriously compromised, probably won't suffer much from missing the second shot, so she might as well do what makes her comfortable.

    On the broader point, given the extremely high level of take-up in the higher age cohorts so far, there would need to be many millions of refusals amongst the young to pose a serious risk to herd immunity. That doesn't seem likely.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,547
    edited April 2021

    algarkirk said:

    On the critical subject of eating fish and chips, while SKS is guilty of being a slightly dull person in the wrong photo op giving the wrong sort of publicity by going anywhere near eating something, he is doing two things right: He is making sure he doesn't do a Miliband - better to look dull and do nothing than look a bit ridiculous. Boris is about the only senior politician around who does OK out of being a lad and a Bertie Wooster. If you haven't got it you can't put it on.

    Secondly, in general as far as he has a strategy it is plainly to wait and hope that the times will come when Boris's wheels come off and everyone notices there is a dull, decent, respectable, uxorious, competent, alternative sort of chap we could elect who probably wouldn't trash the country and isn't nuts, and probably wouldn't sit down before all the ladies are seated. Boris's act could become unamusing if we got 3 million unemployed and 18% inflation. (Though he too would generally not sit down before the ladies are comfortable).

    Exactly. When we all tire of Boris, the county will want someone like Keir. And it is "when" not "if". And when we tire of Boris, Instagram Rishi is not going to be enough of a change to satisfy.

    The trouble is that having someone like Keir as LotO possibly extends the time before we all tire of Boris.
    Right. If wheels come off, the issues may well touch upon the Chancellor's remit, so Sunak may well not be the right person in the right place.

    SKS's biggest problem by miles, suppose the scene is set for him at some point, is the rainbow alliance of losers, Asquith revivalists, single issue fanatics, incompatibles, squabbling separatists, die hard unionists who none the less hate the union and stay away fenians, who would make up the vibrant diversity of those he relies on to stay in power. All of which would make the Tory 42% pretty slow to let them in.

    And as a Labour majority looks impossible more or less absolutely it has to be faced head on. Even if the wheels come off it isn't going to be dull for quite a time to come yet.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this

    Girl, 19, is arguably being perfectly sensible. She may well have concluded that her risk of harm from Covid-19, and even Long Covid, was very low to begin with, and she already has the bulk of the protection she's going to get from dose 1. Somebody of her age, unless perhaps her health is seriously compromised, probably won't suffer much from missing the second shot, so she might as well do what makes her comfortable.

    On the broader point, given the extremely high level of take-up in the higher age cohorts so far, there would need to be many millions of refusals amongst the young to pose a serious risk to herd immunity. That doesn't seem likely.
    That's fair. I am maybe reading my anxieties into her reaction. All the anti vaxxers I know have been energised by today's news. Worrying
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    algarkirk said:

    On the critical subject of eating fish and chips, while SKS is guilty of being a slightly dull person in the wrong photo op giving the wrong sort of publicity by going anywhere near eating something, he is doing two things right: He is making sure he doesn't do a Miliband - better to look dull and do nothing than look a bit ridiculous. Boris is about the only senior politician around who does OK out of being a lad and a Bertie Wooster. If you haven't got it you can't put it on.

    Secondly, in general as far as he has a strategy it is plainly to wait and hope that the times will come when Boris's wheels come off and everyone notices there is a dull, decent, respectable, uxorious, competent, alternative sort of chap we could elect who probably wouldn't trash the country and isn't nuts, and probably wouldn't sit down before all the ladies are seated. Boris's act could become unamusing if we got 3 million unemployed and 18% inflation. (Though he too would generally not sit down before the ladies are comfortable).

    Exactly. When we all tire of Boris, the county will want someone like Keir. And it is "when" not "if". And when we tire of Boris, Instagram Rishi is not going to be enough of a change to satisfy.

    The trouble is that having someone like Keir as LotO possibly extends the time before we all tire of Boris.
    Which county is that then? :smile:

    Anyway, remember what it was like waiting for the country to tire of Tony Blair? Because I do.
    Well indeed. If he'd sat out the Iraq War and reshuffled Brown into the Foreign Office he might well have still been in place in 2009 or 2010 and won again.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    Fine to bail them out. But in a recap the current equity is worth pennies on the dollar
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this

    Girl, 19, is arguably being perfectly sensible. She may well have concluded that her risk of harm from Covid-19, and even Long Covid, was very low to begin with, and she already has the bulk of the protection she's going to get from dose 1. Somebody of her age, unless perhaps her health is seriously compromised, probably won't suffer much from missing the second shot, so she might as well do what makes her comfortable.

    On the broader point, given the extremely high level of take-up in the higher age cohorts so far, there would need to be many millions of refusals amongst the young to pose a serious risk to herd immunity. That doesn't seem likely.
    That's fair. I am maybe reading my anxieties into her reaction. All the anti vaxxers I know have been energised by today's news. Worrying
    But they weren't going to get it anyway. I think you've massively overreacted to today's news. In an odd sort of way they've increased the value of Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax to young people.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Says the man who plotted to get a journalist beaten up

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1379895030077394950
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this

    Girl, 19, is arguably being perfectly sensible. She may well have concluded that her risk of harm from Covid-19, and even Long Covid, was very low to begin with, and she already has the bulk of the protection she's going to get from dose 1. Somebody of her age, unless perhaps her health is seriously compromised, probably won't suffer much from missing the second shot, so she might as well do what makes her comfortable.

    On the broader point, given the extremely high level of take-up in the higher age cohorts so far, there would need to be many millions of refusals amongst the young to pose a serious risk to herd immunity. That doesn't seem likely.
    That's fair. I am maybe reading my anxieties into her reaction. All the anti vaxxers I know have been energised by today's news. Worrying
    But they weren't going to get it anyway. I think you've massively overreacted to today's news. In an odd sort of way they've increased the value of Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax to young people.
    We shall see, quite soon. My family, which can be quite allergic to bad news stories, has taken all this with total calm

    It's the already anti-vaxy who are agitated. So you may well be right
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a crucial point with nearly all businesses, and one that is often missed.

    Spending government money to bail out shareholders and debt holders is often not necessary to ensure that businesses keep running. In a proper functioning market economy, we simply see new owners of the assets.
    Can we pin this post somehow, please?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this

    Girl, 19, is arguably being perfectly sensible. She may well have concluded that her risk of harm from Covid-19, and even Long Covid, was very low to begin with, and she already has the bulk of the protection she's going to get from dose 1. Somebody of her age, unless perhaps her health is seriously compromised, probably won't suffer much from missing the second shot, so she might as well do what makes her comfortable.

    On the broader point, given the extremely high level of take-up in the higher age cohorts so far, there would need to be many millions of refusals amongst the young to pose a serious risk to herd immunity. That doesn't seem likely.
    That's fair. I am maybe reading my anxieties into her reaction. All the anti vaxxers I know have been energised by today's news. Worrying
    That is understandable. I was terribly gloomy last night and this morning. Mood has been lightened somewhat by offer - Alleluia! - of vaccine appointment (not towards the end of April though - Moderna?) But I'm still fretting that we're going to end up with some horrible national biosecurity state at the end of all this - i.e., it may never end. Not really.

    Anyway - as regards the matter in hand, yes, I dare say the anti-vaxxers are feeling vindicated, but that was inevitable. But just so long as they can't make large numbers of converts then what they think doesn't matter that much. At least, not insofar as Covid is concerned. The parents who stop their kids getting the MMR jab are a much more serious concern.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    The UK apparently has two objectives for cross-Channel rail services:
    1. not to bail out foreign owners of Eurostar (largest is SNCF)
    2. ensure continued rail services (depends entirely on the cooperation of SNCF)
    A cue for a haggle, I suspect...


    Fine to bail them out. But in a recap the current equity is worth pennies on the dollar
    To be clear, I don't have a problem with shareholders taking the rap. Someone has to. I do however expect the UK government to do a deal with SNCF that takes into account that company's previous ownership in Eurostar, although it may want to be discreet or indirect about it. That simply reflects SNCF's controlling position in any future arrangement.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian has two under 30s reacting to the AZ news


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/astrazeneca-vaccine-reaction-to-advice-on-jabs-for-under-30s


    One is relatively unfussed, the other says "I won't have the 2nd dose"

    It's a relatively small polling sample - 2 - but I wonder. The reluctant girl is 19. I fear young people and some BAMEs will be swayed by this

    Girl, 19, is arguably being perfectly sensible. She may well have concluded that her risk of harm from Covid-19, and even Long Covid, was very low to begin with, and she already has the bulk of the protection she's going to get from dose 1. Somebody of her age, unless perhaps her health is seriously compromised, probably won't suffer much from missing the second shot, so she might as well do what makes her comfortable.

    On the broader point, given the extremely high level of take-up in the higher age cohorts so far, there would need to be many millions of refusals amongst the young to pose a serious risk to herd immunity. That doesn't seem likely.
    That's fair. I am maybe reading my anxieties into her reaction. All the anti vaxxers I know have been energised by today's news. Worrying
    But they weren't going to get it anyway. I think you've massively overreacted to today's news. In an odd sort of way they've increased the value of Moderna, Pfizer and Novavax to young people.
    We shall see, quite soon. My family, which can be quite allergic to bad news stories, has taken all this with total calm

    It's the already anti-vaxy who are agitated. So you may well be right
    I'm not worried, my wife is 29 and in the group who are now waiting for other vaccines and also isn't worried.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,617
    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1379893579997384706

    France seems to be having regular tech problems with its data.

    I wonder if the people who were so excited about the UK excel data problem last year will be as eagerly tweeting about this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765

    A vaccination question for the medical experts.

    If having a first dose of a vaccine doesn't have any negative effects does that suggest that having a second dose will also not have any negative effects ?

    I was wondering same thing. Presumably it might but the risk level even lower??
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    We don't whilst the Government fails to take the problem of imported viral shit seriously enough.

    The single best measure that could be taken right now to promote public health would be blanket hotel quarantine for incoming air travellers, if necessary accompanied by a rationing system so that returning UK & Irish nationals have to join a virtual queue for the available quarantine rooms, and aren't allowed back until places become available.

    We could then open air bridges to individual countries once we'd properly kicked the crap out of this virus, but only to countries that had done at least as effective a job. Anything else is reckless.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    One of my favourite bits from Yes Minister



    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: They've broken the rules.
    Sir Humphrey: What, you mean the insider trading regulations?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: No.
    Sir Humphrey: Oh. Well, that's one relief.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: I mean of course they've broken those, but they've broken the basic, the basic rule of the City.
    Sir Humphrey: I didn't know there were any.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.
    Sir Humphrey: If you're crooked?
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Well, if you're making good profits for them, chaps don't start asking questions; they're not stupid. Well, not that stupid.
    Sir Humphrey: So the ideal is a firm which is honest and clever.
    Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Yes. Let me know if you ever come across one, won't you.
    (Yes Minister – 1987)



    🙋

    Just clever enough. And straight as an arrow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,765
    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    Search me. No idea. Obviously freight needs to flow. But businessmen from Nigeria?

    I'm in a deeply pessimistic mood tonight. We are heading straight to an autumn lockdown I fear.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335
    I have had the dubious pleasure of seeing close up rioting around my old stomping ground of West Belfast this evening where, as usual, the locals like to take things a step further, in this case petrol bombing a bus with the driver still in it. (Driver reportedly lucky)

    I am still hopeful that a bit of this recent trouble is what back in the day was always a bit of Easter causal rioting, kids off school, weather dry, kick off a bit. Sure we have upset over a number of things; NI Protocol & the police backing out of any sanction of senior Sinn Fein figures, including government ministers, over about as blatant a breach of Covid rules as you can get.

    There is a mysterious lack of media & police suggestions that the trouble is not being driven by certain loyalist groups, with the exception of a particular breakaway faction that has a bit of clout in a certain strip of County Antrim. This group is reportedly upset that the cops have been leaning on their drug trafficking,

    This seems rather remiss, deliberately so. The trouble is shifting around, different towns & different parts of Belfast suggesting a deliberate policy of action. When it kicks off in the way it did in the centre of loyalism in West Belfast, that kinda of thing has a particular sanction. The question is who? Is it one particular organisation or are they all in on it?

    Its wasteful because its going to achieve nothing, it has neither scale nor seriousness of impact at this point. Whilst someone is sending kids out for a bit of entertainment and possible conviction, the obvious thing they could do is kill some ranking EU official based in Belfast. Whilst not in anyway suggesting they should do it, it would probably get the kind of response they want. With the EU in particular such threat is likely to pay off.

    They won't though, instead they will just burn their own streets and maintain deniability.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    Search me. No idea. Obviously freight needs to flow. But businessmen from Nigeria?

    I'm in a deeply pessimistic mood tonight. We are heading straight to an autumn lockdown I fear.
    This is why the Astra Zeneca advice was utterly asinine. It relies on "low exposure". Really?

    Well, here come some new variants which might change that, quite quickly. Close the fucking borders, you stupid morons, and give everyone a jab ASAP and shut the F up about tiny clotting risks for 1 in 1 million people when this Nigerian variant is 2 times more deadly than "normal" Covid which is already killing hundreds of thousands
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    Mercifully - from what little I understand of how this wretched disease works, and I hope to God I'm not being uncharacteristically sunny about all this in vain - I don't expect complete vaccine escape. But it's absolutely foolhardy to keep playing Russian roulette with it like this.

    And if I ultimately turn out to be wrong and one of these variants causes yet another interminable lockdown then... well, I won't say what I think ought to be done to our Dear Leader under those circumstances. But it's not pleasant.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    It's incomprehensible. My only plausible explanation is that the Tories are in hock to the airlines and airports, because the government seem to be obsessed with the idea of enabling overseas travel despite the potential for it to send us back to square one.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    A vaccination question for the medical experts.

    If having a first dose of a vaccine doesn't have any negative effects does that suggest that having a second dose will also not have any negative effects ?

    Not a medical expert but I did read somewhere and FWIW that Astrazeneca has normally more effects on the first dose and less on the second, while it's the other way round with Pfizer. My Mum who had AZ had no effects on her first, but did on her second, so that didn't fit the supposed pattern.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,617
    Yokes said:

    I have had the dubious pleasure of seeing close up rioting around my old stomping ground of West Belfast this evening where, as usual, the locals like to take things a step further, in this case petrol bombing a bus with the driver still in it. (Driver reportedly lucky)

    I am still hopeful that a bit of this recent trouble is what back in the day was always a bit of Easter causal rioting, kids off school, weather dry, kick off a bit. Sure we have upset over a number of things; NI Protocol & the police backing out of any sanction of senior Sinn Fein figures, including government ministers, over about as blatant a breach of Covid rules as you can get.

    There is a mysterious lack of media & police suggestions that the trouble is not being driven by certain loyalist groups, with the exception of a particular breakaway faction that has a bit of clout in a certain strip of County Antrim. This group is reportedly upset that the cops have been leaning on their drug trafficking,

    This seems rather remiss, deliberately so. The trouble is shifting around, different towns & different parts of Belfast suggesting a deliberate policy of action. When it kicks off in the way it did in the centre of loyalism in West Belfast, that kinda of thing has a particular sanction. The question is who? Is it one particular organisation or are they all in on it?

    Its wasteful because its going to achieve nothing, it has neither scale nor seriousness of impact at this point. Whilst someone is sending kids out for a bit of entertainment and possible conviction, the obvious thing they could do is kill some ranking EU official based in Belfast. Whilst not in anyway suggesting they should do it, it would probably get the kind of response they want. With the EU in particular such threat is likely to pay off.

    They won't though, instead they will just burn their own streets and maintain deniability.


    I wondered something along those lines.

    But the loyalist terrorists always come across as both criminal and thick.
  • Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    Search me. No idea. Obviously freight needs to flow. But businessmen from Nigeria?

    I'm in a deeply pessimistic mood tonight. We are heading straight to an autumn lockdown I fear.
    That would genuinely see Tory support crater and Boris be in trouble I think. Whatever general caution the government may express on optimism, I think people are holding out that this really will be the last ever lockdown. If it isn't, he's fucked.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    Mercifully - from what little I understand of how this wretched disease works, and I hope to God I'm not being uncharacteristically sunny about all this in vain - I don't expect complete vaccine escape. But it's absolutely foolhardy to keep playing Russian roulette with it like this.

    And if I ultimately turn out to be wrong and one of these variants causes yet another interminable lockdown then... well, I won't say what I think ought to be done to our Dear Leader under those circumstances. But it's not pleasant.
    Yes there won't be complete escape and we can already see that with AZ and Novavax which have got lower efficacy against symptomatic COVID but maintain very high efficacy against severe symptoms and hospitalisation against the SA and Brazilian variants.

    Ultimately we're going to beat this with science and we have got a huge vaccine portfolio including vaccines that are yet to be trialled and can be edited now for delivery in September.
This discussion has been closed.