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The extraordinary range of views of Nicola Sturgeon – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I'm desperate to travel abroad. As I have said. But if the only way to get rid of Covid is to close the borders FOR ANOTHER YEAR to stop it getting in, then just bloody do it. Allow vital trade and politics, allow tested hauliers, pilots, docs, scientists, and that's about it. Why should anyone - ANYONE - be allowed to come here "on holiday" when we aren't allowed to do the same??

    If the Tories' lax and unexplained border "controls" allow another escaped variant and a fourth lockdown then I will never vote for them ever again in my lifetime


  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    Search me. No idea. Obviously freight needs to flow. But businessmen from Nigeria?

    I'm in a deeply pessimistic mood tonight. We are heading straight to an autumn lockdown I fear.
    That would genuinely see Tory support crater and Boris be in trouble I think. Whatever general caution the government may express on optimism, I think people are holding out that this really will be the last ever lockdown. If it isn't, he's fucked.
    Who knows. We have mostly been highly tolerant so far. Personally I think Johnson should fall if he tries to introduce a digital national ID hidden as vaxports but that's up to the 1922.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    Leon said:

    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    I know, I had a badly diabetic partner for a while. Knowing that kinda made it worse. She was doing a populist thing in a cack-handed way that probably made her more unpopular, the Ed Miliband bacon sandwich was the same

    People like authenticity, they reject the obviously bogus quite fiercely. You have to be a very accomplished actor to bring off a totally fake persona. Boris might be one (I am not sure), Harold Wilson was apparently another (the pipe v the cigar)

    Corbyn was authentically himself, which is why he got away with insane terrible policies in 2017. It really helps

    Blair was himself and relaxed and won. Brown was not, and awkward, and lost. Sturgeon is a good fake, Salmond is himself, Davidson was good.

    Starmer seems reasonably himself. He accepts he is not terribly exciting, and does not pretend otherwise. I suspect the British might give him a second chance if he persists. However, given his boring-ness, he will need some good, eye-catching policies
    Which as I recall you think should be headed by "clean streets".
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759

    We don't whilst the Government fails to take the problem of imported viral shit seriously enough.

    The single best measure that could be taken right now to promote public health would be blanket hotel quarantine for incoming air travellers, if necessary accompanied by a rationing system so that returning UK & Irish nationals have to join a virtual queue for the available quarantine rooms, and aren't allowed back until places become available.

    We could then open air bridges to individual countries once we'd properly kicked the crap out of this virus, but only to countries that had done at least as effective a job. Anything else is reckless.
    That's what NZ has done with brutal effectiveness. Lots of Kiwis have been stranded abroad for a YEAR
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,045

    We don't whilst the Government fails to take the problem of imported viral shit seriously enough.

    The single best measure that could be taken right now to promote public health would be blanket hotel quarantine for incoming air travellers, if necessary accompanied by a rationing system so that returning UK & Irish nationals have to join a virtual queue for the available quarantine rooms, and aren't allowed back until places become available.

    We could then open air bridges to individual countries once we'd properly kicked the crap out of this virus, but only to countries that had done at least as effective a job. Anything else is reckless.
    Why is the government not doing this? Serious question I would love to know the answer to.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    It's incomprehensible. My only plausible explanation is that the Tories are in hock to the airlines and airports, because the government seem to be obsessed with the idea of enabling overseas travel despite the potential for it to send us back to square one.
    Restricting international travel for politicians and media types is the equivalent of restricting alcohol to an alcoholic.

    Not only cannot they do without it but they cannot even conceive of doing so.

    They will however pretend to be doing without it.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,217
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    It's incomprehensible. My only plausible explanation is that the Tories are in hock to the airlines and airports, because the government seem to be obsessed with the idea of enabling overseas travel despite the potential for it to send us back to square one.
    It's rather simpler - if you cut off the avenues mentioned above, you will cut off immigration.

    "Business men", "Holiday makers", "Students"..... the labels are endless. The reality is simple. nearly all immigration, legal and illegal goes on through the airports and the scheduled ferry services.

    Why do you think Labour has said anything?
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814

    A vaccination question for the medical experts.

    If having a first dose of a vaccine doesn't have any negative effects does that suggest that having a second dose will also not have any negative effects ?

    I was wondering same thing. Presumably it might but the risk level even lower??
    They did report that zero cases had been recorded after the second dose, but only 2.2 million second doses had yet been given, so a one-in-a-million level couldn’t yet be completely ruled out for those.

    Intuitively, one would think that if the first dose didn’t do anything bad, the second dose would be more of the same.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    We don't watch Sky news, even the papers review disappoints. ITV news is fairly ok . We are heading in the UK for news channels where the bias is no longer hidden.. its already happened to c4 news.. British versions of Fox news await..
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    I know, I had a badly diabetic partner for a while. Knowing that kinda made it worse. She was doing a populist thing in a cack-handed way that probably made her more unpopular, the Ed Miliband bacon sandwich was the same

    People like authenticity, they reject the obviously bogus quite fiercely. You have to be a very accomplished actor to bring off a totally fake persona. Boris might be one (I am not sure), Harold Wilson was apparently another (the pipe v the cigar)

    Corbyn was authentically himself, which is why he got away with insane terrible policies in 2017. It really helps

    Blair was himself and relaxed and won. Brown was not, and awkward, and lost. Sturgeon is a good fake, Salmond is himself, Davidson was good.

    Starmer seems reasonably himself. He accepts he is not terribly exciting, and does not pretend otherwise. I suspect the British might give him a second chance if he persists. However, given his boring-ness, he will need some good, eye-catching policies
    Which as I recall you think should be headed by "clean streets".
    And that by itself would be eye-catching, Many BAMEs, living in tougher districts, would love it. A simple obvious achievable policy. Do it.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152
    edited April 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I'm desperate to travel abroad. As I have said. But if the only way to get rid of Covid is to close the borders FOR ANOTHER YEAR to stop it getting in, then just bloody do it. Allow vital trade and politics, allow tested hauliers, pilots, docs, scientists, and that's about it. Why should anyone - ANYONE - be allowed to come here "on holiday" when we aren't allowed to do the same??

    If the Tories' lax and unexplained border "controls" allow another escaped variant and a fourth lockdown then I will never vote for them ever again in my lifetime


    Yes, as am I. You're right about it though, I'd rather have a fully open internal economy and put off foreign travel until late this year or even next year if necessary. We should block everywhere and selectively reopen to countries that have got high rates of vaccination and reached herd immunity. That means Israel and the US initially but over time other countries could also be added, it should also only be for citizens and long term residents of those countries who have been vaccinated, not transit passengers from the likes of Brazil.
  • Options
    I'm staggered that no one on here has commented on the fact that Gov. Ron DeSantis is now the 2nd favourite to be the GOP nominee in 2024.

    I got him at 100/1, 80/1 & 66/1. He's now at 6/1! It's the betting opportunity of the decade!
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    I'm staggered that no one on here has commented on the fact that Gov. Ron DeSantis is now the 2nd favourite to be the GOP nominee in 2024.

    I got him at 100/1, 80/1 & 66/1. He's now at 6/1! It's the betting opportunity of the decade!

    To lay at 6 you mean?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,358

    algarkirk said:

    On the critical subject of eating fish and chips, while SKS is guilty of being a slightly dull person in the wrong photo op giving the wrong sort of publicity by going anywhere near eating something, he is doing two things right: He is making sure he doesn't do a Miliband - better to look dull and do nothing than look a bit ridiculous. Boris is about the only senior politician around who does OK out of being a lad and a Bertie Wooster. If you haven't got it you can't put it on.

    Secondly, in general as far as he has a strategy it is plainly to wait and hope that the times will come when Boris's wheels come off and everyone notices there is a dull, decent, respectable, uxorious, competent, alternative sort of chap we could elect who probably wouldn't trash the country and isn't nuts, and probably wouldn't sit down before all the ladies are seated. Boris's act could become unamusing if we got 3 million unemployed and 18% inflation. (Though he too would generally not sit down before the ladies are comfortable).

    Exactly. When we all tire of Boris, the county will want someone like Keir. And it is "when" not "if". And when we tire of Boris, Instagram Rishi is not going to be enough of a change to satisfy.

    The trouble is that having someone like Keir as LotO possibly extends the time before we all tire of Boris.
    Which county is that then? :smile:

    Anyway, remember what it was like waiting for the country to tire of Tony Blair? Because I do.
    So do I. William Hague (thank goodness there are no Rs in his name... must get the keyboard checked post-lockdown) was and is a decent statesman of solid Tory instincts... who made approximately zero progress from 1997 to 2001. Net gain of one seat on decent but exhausted John Major. Basically, winning back Tatton because Neil Hamilton wasn't the candidate.

    The other thing I remember was the early years of Brown. Cameron had seemed like the new hope, but was being batted away by the man born to rule. Then something happened.

    The one I don't remember was the early years of Thatcher. I was too busy counting ladybirds in the garden or something. But people older than me (including Conservative Aldermen, I'll have you know) say that she was obviously going nowhere against Jolly Jim. Then something happened.

    The key thing about being in opposition is that you are powerless. That always makes you look bad. All you can really do is keep calm, make sure you don't look repulsive and have something ready for the moment when things do go wrong for the government. That was what made Blair unusual; he took over when the Major government was already in lame duck zombie mode.

    Right now, BoJo is Father of the Nation. (And not in that sense, oh no missus, titter ye not.) That won't last forever; it came blooming close to falling apart last December. I don't think it's a deserved status, but I recognise that I'm not in the majority for thinking that right now. But Boris too is mortal.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    I wonder if there is any mileage in continuing the AZ vaccine in all age groups and have follow up appointments to give all patients clot busting drugs as a precaution. Not sure if that's feasible, maybe @Foxy can say.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    I know, I had a badly diabetic partner for a while. Knowing that kinda made it worse. She was doing a populist thing in a cack-handed way that probably made her more unpopular, the Ed Miliband bacon sandwich was the same

    People like authenticity, they reject the obviously bogus quite fiercely. You have to be a very accomplished actor to bring off a totally fake persona. Boris might be one (I am not sure), Harold Wilson was apparently another (the pipe v the cigar)

    Corbyn was authentically himself, which is why he got away with insane terrible policies in 2017. It really helps

    Blair was himself and relaxed and won. Brown was not, and awkward, and lost. Sturgeon is a good fake, Salmond is himself, Davidson was good.

    Starmer seems reasonably himself. He accepts he is not terribly exciting, and does not pretend otherwise. I suspect the British might give him a second chance if he persists. However, given his boring-ness, he will need some good, eye-catching policies
    Which as I recall you think should be headed by "clean streets".
    And that by itself would be eye-catching, Many BAMEs, living in tougher districts, would love it. A simple obvious achievable policy. Do it.
    What are BAMEs?
  • Options
    BournvilleBournville Posts: 303

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    We don't watch Sky news, even the papers review disappoints. ITV news is fairly ok . We are heading in the UK for news channels where the bias is no longer hidden.. its already happened to c4 news.. British versions of Fox news await..
    I went to Australia just before Covid hit to see relatives, and they watched a lot of Sky News - I was taken aback at just how politicised and right wing the Aussie Sky is compared to here. They seem to love the "news anchor delivers a political rant with a tenuous link to what actually happened directly to camera immediately after reporting the news to blur the lines between fact and opinion" thing even more than in the US. Different markets I suppose.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,116
    MaxPB said:

    I wonder if there is any mileage in continuing the AZ vaccine in all age groups and have follow up appointments to give all patients clot busting drugs as a precaution. Not sure if that's feasible, maybe @Foxy can say.

    You’d have to consider the side effects of the clot busters too. I heard a chat on the radio today with the medic asserting that all active drugs have side effects, and anything without a side effect almost certainly didn’t have any efficacy.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
    Rest assured I am a left of centre conservative and miles from ERG

    That is not going to change but we do need a new broadcaster to counter the move to the left of Sky

    To be fair I am less critical of the BBC or ITV
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    edited April 2021
    15 cases of the Nigerian variant in Ireland. Because their control of the border is probably worse than ours

    https://twitter.com/aoifemcl/status/1378277795286122496?s=20

    It is also in France, sorry, Algeria

    https://twitter.com/Mehdidjr/status/1379561579348381699?s=20


    Denmark



    https://twitter.com/katja_adolf/status/1378617244951937025?s=20
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152
    MaxPB said:

    I wonder if there is any mileage in continuing the AZ vaccine in all age groups and have follow up appointments to give all patients clot busting drugs as a precaution. Not sure if that's feasible, maybe @Foxy can say.

    I have been on clot-busting drugs. They really are not the sort of thing you hand out willynilly unless a person really needs them. They have side effects too.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,217
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    As I've said, many times - what do you think the reaction will be when they shut down immigration? Not reduce it. Shut it down.

    That's not isn the wheelhouse of any politician at Westminster.

    Because of the reaction from our Optimates would be universal condemnation.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    +1,000
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Do you know, Charles? I was going to add "there must be summat going on we don't know about" to my original comment.
    But I didn't cos I couldn't think of a credible, non-conspiracy loon theory.
    So thanks for providing one. Any others?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    Indeed. But I can't see it. Max is right. Bailing out the entire travel industry for a year would be cheaper than another lockdown from another variant.

    So what is the point in keeping the borders open?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    I wonder if there is any mileage in continuing the AZ vaccine in all age groups and have follow up appointments to give all patients clot busting drugs as a precaution. Not sure if that's feasible, maybe @Foxy can say.

    I have been on clot-busting drugs. They really are not the sort of thing you hand out willynilly unless a person really needs them. They have side effects too.
    I've been on blood thinners for 30 years and they keep me alive.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Also, forgot to mention, NHS England will get around 400k Moderna doses at some point in the next few days for immediate roll out and we're continuing to use the same JiT delivery method so all 400k will be given as first doses.

    I got that from a pretty reliable contact just before the end of the work day, another 400-500k is expected "very soon" and then regular shipments of "about 900k" from later in April. I'm also told the government regrets not purchasing more Moderna when they had the opportunity and also regrets not backing it as one of the domestic manufacturing deals like Novavax and Valneva when it had the chance.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
    Rest assured I am a left of centre conservative and miles from ERG

    That is not going to change but we do need a new broadcaster to counter the move to the left of Sky

    To be fair I am less critical of the BBC or ITV
    I'll have to take your word about Sky. It's Ch4 news all day long for me. Or at 7 pm anyway. The mighty KGM. National treasure Snow. Implacable Cathy Newman. And the rest of the team. No weak link.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    MaxPB said:

    Also, forgot to mention, NHS England will get around 400k Moderna doses at some point in the next few days for immediate roll out and we're continuing to use the same JiT delivery method so all 400k will be given as first doses.

    I got that from a pretty reliable contact just before the end of the work day, another 400-500k is expected "very soon" and then regular shipments of "about 900k" from later in April. I'm also told the government regrets not purchasing more Moderna when they had the opportunity and also regrets not backing it as one of the domestic manufacturing deals like Novavax and Valneva when it had the chance.

    They made some great calls and backed some right horses. But no one in the vaccine wars called all the right horses I imagine.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,201
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    I know, I had a badly diabetic partner for a while. Knowing that kinda made it worse. She was doing a populist thing in a cack-handed way that probably made her more unpopular, the Ed Miliband bacon sandwich was the same

    People like authenticity, they reject the obviously bogus quite fiercely. You have to be a very accomplished actor to bring off a totally fake persona. Boris might be one (I am not sure), Harold Wilson was apparently another (the pipe v the cigar)

    Corbyn was authentically himself, which is why he got away with insane terrible policies in 2017. It really helps

    Blair was himself and relaxed and won. Brown was not, and awkward, and lost. Sturgeon is a good fake, Salmond is himself, Davidson was good.

    Starmer seems reasonably himself. He accepts he is not terribly exciting, and does not pretend otherwise. I suspect the British might give him a second chance if he persists. However, given his boring-ness, he will need some good, eye-catching policies
    Which as I recall you think should be headed by "clean streets".
    And that by itself would be eye-catching, Many BAMEs, living in tougher districts, would love it. A simple obvious achievable policy. Do it.
    What are BAMEs?
    When I look back upon my life
    It's always with a sense of shame
    I've always been the one to BAME
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    MaxPB said:

    I wonder if there is any mileage in continuing the AZ vaccine in all age groups and have follow up appointments to give all patients clot busting drugs as a precaution. Not sure if that's feasible, maybe @Foxy can say.

    You’d have to consider the side effects of the clot busters too. I heard a chat on the radio today with the medic asserting that all active drugs have side effects, and anything without a side effect almost certainly didn’t have any efficacy.
    As I said, I'm not a medic so I don't know if it's feasible. Would something like Heparin work or is that a blood thinner rather than clot buster? Or are they the same thing?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Re: lack of travel bans. It comes from trying to generalise a specific case into a catch all approach.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1334468357224067072?s=19
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, forgot to mention, NHS England will get around 400k Moderna doses at some point in the next few days for immediate roll out and we're continuing to use the same JiT delivery method so all 400k will be given as first doses.

    I got that from a pretty reliable contact just before the end of the work day, another 400-500k is expected "very soon" and then regular shipments of "about 900k" from later in April. I'm also told the government regrets not purchasing more Moderna when they had the opportunity and also regrets not backing it as one of the domestic manufacturing deals like Novavax and Valneva when it had the chance.

    They made some great calls and backed some right horses. But no one in the vaccine wars called all the right horses I imagine.
    Yes, no doubt but I think watching the way mRNA vaccines have ramped up manufacturing fairly easily as chemical processes vs biological processes like AZ or Novavax which have had a tougher ramp up has given them some regrets. We're in the game with CureVac now but that deal won't deliver until 2022 and will be a gen 2 or 3 vaccine targeting variants.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,201

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    Ozzy's pasty!

    The burger was John Gummer trying to feed his daughter at the height of the BSE scare!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
    Rest assured I am a left of centre conservative and miles from ERG

    That is not going to change but we do need a new broadcaster to counter the move to the left of Sky

    To be fair I am less critical of the BBC or ITV
    I'll have to take your word about Sky. It's Ch4 news all day long for me. Or at 7 pm anyway. The mighty KGM. National treasure Snow. Implacable Cathy Newman. And the rest of the team. No weak link.
    But of course, the 'anti-GB' News. Good for them to have a mirror image for balance at last.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    That's just going to make them even more angry. It's not that we're not exporting, we're just not exporting to them.
  • Options
    BournvilleBournville Posts: 303
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    MaxPB said:

    That's just going to make them even more angry. It's not that we're not exporting, we're just not exporting to them.
    Tough shit
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445

    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    It's incomprehensible. My only plausible explanation is that the Tories are in hock to the airlines and airports, because the government seem to be obsessed with the idea of enabling overseas travel despite the potential for it to send us back to square one.
    Restricting international travel for politicians and media types is the equivalent of restricting alcohol to an alcoholic.

    Not only cannot they do without it but they cannot even conceive of doing so.

    They will however pretend to be doing without it.
    But it's okay to lock ordinary people in their homes for many months.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    I don't know. I'll need to give it a big think. Will revert if it comes up with something worthy of blog consideration.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    Alistair said:

    Re: lack of travel bans. It comes from trying to generalise a specific case into a catch all approach.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1334468357224067072?s=19

    Fascinating. So it's the idiot bien pensant Left leading the no-travel-ban thing, ably assisted by the moronic Trumpite right.

    Seems fitting
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    edited April 2021
    Alistair said:

    Re: lack of travel bans. It comes from trying to generalise a specific case into a catch all approach.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1334468357224067072?s=19

    This theory sounds pretty iffy even in the circumstances in which it was supposed to work in the first place, let alone any others.

    People "won't report a plague"? Isn't it pretty damn difficult to keep one under wraps...
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,821
    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    Not often we agree but absolutely CTFB
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
    My guess is that it is a mix of what you say (we are so connected we are hardly an island) and what Matt Yglesias says, via Alistair's very helpful link, below

    Neither is acceptable, alone or in combination. If you can demolish the UK foreign travel industry you can make it a LOT harder for hauliers to interact with Brits, keep them tested and quarantined, then send them home. At the same time you can get your thick skull around the fact Covid is very different to other diseases, and we now know travel bans WORK, see New Zealand and Oz and others

    They refuse to learn this as they refused to learn Covid was not flu, masks work, etc etc etc ETFUCKINGC

    We are governed by craven, idiot politicians who kow tow to parochial, wibbling scientists unable to grasp new paradigms
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
    Rest assured I am a left of centre conservative and miles from ERG

    That is not going to change but we do need a new broadcaster to counter the move to the left of Sky

    To be fair I am less critical of the BBC or ITV
    I'll have to take your word about Sky. It's Ch4 news all day long for me. Or at 7 pm anyway. The mighty KGM. National treasure Snow. Implacable Cathy Newman. And the rest of the team. No weak link.
    But of course, the 'anti-GB' News. Good for them to have a mirror image for balance at last.
    Yes I don't mind, so long as it only gets a tiny audience and flops.

    Can't see you watching it. Which is good.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
    My guess is that it is a mix of what you say (we are so connected we are hardly an island) and what Matt Yglesias says, via Alistair's very helpful link, below

    Neither is acceptable, alone or in combination. If you can demolish the UK foreign travel industry you can make it a LOT harder for hauliers to interact with Brits, keep them tested and quarantined, then send them home. At the same time you can get your thick skull around the fact Covid is very different to other diseases, and we now know travel bans WORK, see New Zealand and Oz and others

    They refuse to learn this as they refused to learn Covid was not flu, masks work, etc etc etc ETFUCKINGC

    We are governed by craven, idiot politicians who kow tow to parochial, wibbling scientists unable to grasp new paradigms
    The "people won't report a plague" concept is totally bizarre. You can't hide a plague like you might hide other things.

    Also:

    "stigmatizing the disease would have likely been counterproductive by undermining contact tracing"

    What? A disease will always be attached to stigma, no matter what you do.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Alistair said:

    Re: lack of travel bans. It comes from trying to generalise a specific case into a catch all approach.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1334468357224067072?s=19

    This theory sounds pretty iffy even in the circumstances in which it was supposed to work in the first place, let alone any others.
    It seems okay to me, it's just the basic central tension of the pandemic vs response that we have discussed a thousand times. The economic cost of lockdown will kill people as surely as the actual effect of disease. You have to find a balance between them.

    The idiocy comes from trying to generalise a very specific disease with a known treatment and limited human-human transmission like the plague to all pandemics. Especially idiotic to apply to an unknown respiratory infection.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    edited April 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
    My guess is that it is a mix of what you say (we are so connected we are hardly an island) and what Matt Yglesias says, via Alistair's very helpful link, below

    Neither is acceptable, alone or in combination. If you can demolish the UK foreign travel industry you can make it a LOT harder for hauliers to interact with Brits, keep them tested and quarantined, then send them home. At the same time you can get your thick skull around the fact Covid is very different to other diseases, and we now know travel bans WORK, see New Zealand and Oz and others

    They refuse to learn this as they refused to learn Covid was not flu, masks work, etc etc etc ETFUCKINGC

    We are governed by craven, idiot politicians who kow tow to parochial, wibbling scientists unable to grasp new paradigms
    The "people won't report a plague" concept is totally bizarre. You can't hide a plague like you might hide other things.
    China literally tried from November to January so not that bizarre.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    edited April 2021
    MaxPB said:

    That's just going to make them even more angry. It's not that we're not exporting, we're just not exporting to them.
    Remember when we were told it was possible to get six doses from a vial of five.

    If that's what we're doing then that would be 20% doses more in practice than what has been officially received.

    Which would amount to millions of doses by now.

    And might link in to EU conspiracies about the UK supposedly receiving extra vaccines by nefarious means.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,216
    Spain’s health ministry decided to only give AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine to people aged between 60 to 65 after European and British regulators found a potential link between the shot and rare brain blood clots.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Italy is about to overtake the UK once again on the Worldometer deaths per million scoreboard, I see.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    It feels like the UK's relatively rapid vaccination programme could make a big difference to that particuluar league table over the coming couple of months.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306
    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    Very few diabetics avoid all carbohydrates, just use insulin at the right level to assimilate them.

  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,081

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
    This seems plausible to me. Also would explain why it hasn't been explained.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    IanB2 said:

    Spain’s health ministry decided to only give AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine to people aged between 60 to 65 after European and British regulators found a potential link between the shot and rare brain blood clots.

    Inevitable this would happen. Most other European countries will probably adopt the same policy. Not based in science.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    From the article linked to earlier.

    "Public health records, scores of scientific studies and interviews with more than two dozen experts show the policy of unobstructed travel was never based on hard science. It was a political decision, recast as health advice, which emerged after a plague outbreak in India in the 1990s. By the time Covid-19 surfaced, it had become an article of faith.

    “It’s part of the religion of global health: Travel and trade restrictions are bad,” said Lawrence O. Gostin, a professor of global health law at Georgetown University who helped write the global rules known as the International Health Regulations. “I’m one of the congregants.”"

    https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-road-not-traveled
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
    And yet I know a lot of politically connected people and none can explain it, apart from a few lefties who waffle about xenophobia and a few righties who waffle about freedom and trade, so I genuinely suspect it is a toxic combination of these two stupidities, with generalised apathy about tackling such a difficult problem in an interconnected country like the UK. All this plus the Ebola hangover thing, and a pious belief travel bans "don't work" when it is now absolutely clear that they do
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,902

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    Ozzy's pasty!

    The burger was John Gummer trying to feed his daughter at the height of the BSE scare!
    No, there was much ado about Oz eating a Byron burger.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
    Excellent post.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560

    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    Very few diabetics avoid all carbohydrates, just use insulin at the right level to assimilate them.

    Er... I thought most type 2 diabetics take metformin rather than insulin.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    Boring, dull and defeatist. Why the focus on the party vote alone. Are the Tories really giving up in every constituency in Scotland?

    They want to rebuild Scotland "brick by brick". How? What should be done in our schools, how are our hospitals to cope with the backlog, what the hell are we going to do about the £500m of Gupta guarantees given by the Scottish government, what do the Tories think about Crown Office, the wrongful prosecutions, the failed investments in failed businesses, the lying and the dishonesty? Surely the Tories have more to say about what kind of Scotland in the UK they want than no to a second referendum.

    Why are they not offering a paean to the UK triumph of UK vaccines, the Scottish lives saved, the jobs saved by furlough, the incredibly generous grants, the money poured on the Scottish government and wasted on yet more gestures like free buses? Why are they not making a positive case for the Union and a critique of 14 years of SNP mismanagement? I am so frustrated.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,956
    edited April 2021
    Watching that Sabine Schmitz tribute thing, haven’t seen Clarkson and Hammond for a while. They look effing ancient!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    Encouragingly, you can right now fly direct from Lagos to Heathrow via BA or Virgin, according to Kayak

    https://www.kayak.co.uk/flights/LON-LOS/2021-05-07/2021-05-14?sort=bestflight_a
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,006

    Fenman said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I must the only one who finds “politician eats food” stories utterly trite.

    I’m thinking of Sir Keir’s fish and chips, Ed’s bacon sarnie and Ozzy’s burger.

    Who TF cares?

    I do, because it's a relief to talk about apparently trivial shit, as against deadly plague and dry economics. Also this stuff matters: the story of Ursula and The Chair is now everywhere, because it says something about Turkey, men, politics for women, the EU...

    And as for chips in the West Country, the moment I realised Teresa was a disaster was when she ate chips in Cornwall

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/859432589215617025?s=20
    Except the Tory vote share in St Austell & Newquay increased significantly, and the majority went up by about 3,000, in 2017. So perhaps Theresa May's chip eating style wasn't so off-putting after all?
    You maybe missed the other results?

    Seriously, when she ate those chips like an autistic, disarticulated android in a lady suit, who had never encountered carbohydrate-based foodstuffs before. that's when I knew she was in deeeeeeep trouble.

    Corbyn, for all his immense faults, always looked comfortable in his own skin. Boris always looks like he is enormously enjoying himself, or he is trying to hide the same hedonistic pleasure.

    Voters like to find their leaders relatable or cheering or, ideally, both. A leader that makes your teeth grind with embarrassment every time you see her, not so much
    She is diabetic and starches convert to sugars. Potato is best avoided.
    Very few diabetics avoid all carbohydrates, just use insulin at the right level to assimilate them.

    Yeah but eating a portion of chips is a shit idea if you are diabetic. The only good think in it is the fat. You need to keep your carbs at a moderate, constant level.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
    And yet I know a lot of politically connected people and none can explain it, apart from a few lefties who waffle about xenophobia and a few righties who waffle about freedom and trade, so I genuinely suspect it is a toxic combination of these two stupidities, with generalised apathy about tackling such a difficult problem in an interconnected country like the UK. All this plus the Ebola hangover thing, and a pious belief travel bans "don't work" when it is now absolutely clear that they do
    Which also raises the question if it is "an article of faith" how come Oz and NZ are recusant?
    I know it's much easier to implement there, but, the figures, and the relative lack of any other restrictions shout for themselves, don't they?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
    Rest assured I am a left of centre conservative and miles from ERG

    That is not going to change but we do need a new broadcaster to counter the move to the left of Sky

    To be fair I am less critical of the BBC or ITV
    I'll have to take your word about Sky. It's Ch4 news all day long for me. Or at 7 pm anyway. The mighty KGM. National treasure Snow. Implacable Cathy Newman. And the rest of the team. No weak link.
    No surprises there whatsoever, I wouldn't expect anything else from you.

    It would be good to have a counterweight to Ch4 but I expect that GB News would be far more balanced and neutral than Ch4 is.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    Encouragingly, you can right now fly direct from Lagos to Heathrow via BA or Virgin, according to Kayak

    https://www.kayak.co.uk/flights/LON-LOS/2021-05-07/2021-05-14?sort=bestflight_a

    Use Skyscanner you traitor.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,884
    edited April 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    And does anyone in Government know how many hundreds of people flew into the UK from Nigeria over the last week?

    No. Thought not.
    I don't understand the government's attitude to the border. It's quite simply the single most destructive policy we've had during this pandemic.
    We've kept the border open so people from PERU (world's highest Covid excess death rate) can come on holiday "to see Big Ben"

    Meanwhile every Briton has been locked away at home for most of a year, and is forbidden from foreign holidays altogether

    Piss-boiling
    Yes, someone needs to punch every single minister in the balls over and over again until this policy is changed. I still don't understand how the opposition aren't smashing the government on this every single day. I'd raise the issue every single PMQs with all of the new idiotic scenarios that we hear about such as the above until Boris is embarrassed enough to fire Shapps and reverse the policy.
    I simply don't understand why the government won't close the borders. Are Ministers all being bribed by the travel industry or something?

    The government insists on micromanaging every aspect of domestic life but lets any Tom, Dick or Harry waltz in.

    It's baffling and infuriating.

    At this rate we'll never lift this bloody lockdown. Grrr......
    My understanding is that there's three problems:

    1) We're not really an 'island' in the same way Japan, or even South Korea (given its only land border is with a hermit state) is; instead of trade being done through mostly automated container shipping, we have a comparatively very manpower heavy roll on roll off ferry link with the mainland, through which a lot of food and vital resources are imported. You can't stop that, or automate it in short order with our current infrastructure. Functionally, it's like having a land border. So you're going to have thousands of people entering the country every day, even if you completely shut the airports and non-RO RO seaports.

    2) If we assume the Government makes 'common sense' adjustments to the closed border policy - allowing lorry drivers in, allowing people to enter for humanitarian reasons, allowing people to enter for limited economic reasons - the policy wouldn't be all that much different from what we already have, so at that point it mostly becomes a question of branding.

    3) We have a land border with the Republic of Ireland; if the Government went with an explicitly closed borders policy, either they have to close the border with the RoI, and risk Nationalist violence, close the border with Great Britain, and risk Unionist violence, or beg the RoI to match British domestic policy and shut themselves off to the rest of the world, which (presumably) they won't be keen to do.
    My guess is that it is a mix of what you say (we are so connected we are hardly an island) and what Matt Yglesias says, via Alistair's very helpful link, below

    Neither is acceptable, alone or in combination. If you can demolish the UK foreign travel industry you can make it a LOT harder for hauliers to interact with Brits, keep them tested and quarantined, then send them home. At the same time you can get your thick skull around the fact Covid is very different to other diseases, and we now know travel bans WORK, see New Zealand and Oz and others

    They refuse to learn this as they refused to learn Covid was not flu, masks work, etc etc etc ETFUCKINGC

    We are governed by craven, idiot politicians who kow tow to parochial, wibbling scientists unable to grasp new paradigms
    The "people won't report a plague" concept is totally bizarre. You can't hide a plague like you might hide other things.
    China literally tried from November to January so not that bizarre.
    Some European countries effectively hid the extent of their plague by not testing enough last summer. The air bridges made sense when prevalences were equivalent (ignoring the behaviour change of people on holiday), but it turned out that they weren't equivalent at all.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Oh wow! A smart and responsible front page from The S*n.

    Never thought I'd see the day. Hell hath completely frozen over.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    dr_spyn said:
    That's a new poll. Will be interesting to see if Alba were prompted for and how.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,956

    Watching that Sabine Schmitz tribute thing, haven’t seen Clarkson and Hammond for a while. They look effing ancient!

    Jeez, May is Theoden before being released from the spell.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
    And yet I know a lot of politically connected people and none can explain it, apart from a few lefties who waffle about xenophobia and a few righties who waffle about freedom and trade, so I genuinely suspect it is a toxic combination of these two stupidities, with generalised apathy about tackling such a difficult problem in an interconnected country like the UK. All this plus the Ebola hangover thing, and a pious belief travel bans "don't work" when it is now absolutely clear that they do
    It's part of the religion of the global elites that the last thing you do is stop global travel. You prefer to lock down domestic populations first.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
    And yet I know a lot of politically connected people and none can explain it, apart from a few lefties who waffle about xenophobia and a few righties who waffle about freedom and trade, so I genuinely suspect it is a toxic combination of these two stupidities, with generalised apathy about tackling such a difficult problem in an interconnected country like the UK. All this plus the Ebola hangover thing, and a pious belief travel bans "don't work" when it is now absolutely clear that they do
    Which also raises the question if it is "an article of faith" how come Oz and NZ are recusant?
    I know it's much easier to implement there, but, the figures, and the relative lack of any other restrictions shout for themselves, don't they?
    It is lazy, complacent groupthink from people who believe they are smarter than they are. Watching Jonathan "masks don't work" Van Tam today just rammed it home. Why is this waffling no-mark still in a job after that hideous, repeated error?

    They are a clerisy, and they support each other. If they admit one of their number has completely fucked up, all may fall. So they go along with the established beliefs, and bear no bad witness to each other, until such time as they are so absurdly wrong they quietly shift, all at once. Again, see the advice on masks, effortlessly segueing from masks are bad to masks are brilliant, and yet no one lied, and/or no one got it terribly terribly wrong?

    At the end of this, we need a reckoning, A whole cohort of politicians and scientists and civil servants need to be sacked and driven from public life. They have monumentally failed. 150,000 have died, and still more may die.

    This can't be ignored with feeble inquiries like Iraq. This is a once-in-a-century failure of governance, guidance, and public health policy.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Encouragingly, you can right now fly direct from Lagos to Heathrow via BA or Virgin, according to Kayak

    https://www.kayak.co.uk/flights/LON-LOS/2021-05-07/2021-05-14?sort=bestflight_a

    If you are ever on that flight, you will discover that every single person in Upper Class and Premium Economy works for an oil company / oil services company, If you wanted to insider trade oil stocks, just sitting quietly in your seat and listening to people complaining about "production being well below schedule in the x well" or boasting "have you seen the seismic for y... incredible" is all you need.

    For the record: I never did such a thing, and would never do such a thing. Headphones exist for a reason.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus Christ, I am watching Sky News for the first time in a long while

    When did it become the Guardian on super-steroids? It is one long leftwing, right on, BLM-y, bien pensant, virtue-signalling RANT. it makes Channel 4 look balanced

    No wonder GB News saw a niche

    I have been saying this for sometime

    GBnews will run riot with Sky's viewing figures
    I do hope you aren't tempted. It might push you further right than a person ought to be.
    Rest assured I am a left of centre conservative and miles from ERG

    That is not going to change but we do need a new broadcaster to counter the move to the left of Sky

    To be fair I am less critical of the BBC or ITV
    I'll have to take your word about Sky. It's Ch4 news all day long for me. Or at 7 pm anyway. The mighty KGM. National treasure Snow. Implacable Cathy Newman. And the rest of the team. No weak link.
    No surprises there whatsoever, I wouldn't expect anything else from you.

    It would be good to have a counterweight to Ch4 but I expect that GB News would be far more balanced and neutral than it is.
    Which just proves that neutrality is in the eye of the beholder.

    Ch4 News has to adhere to the Ofcom broadcasting code on impartiality and accuracy, as will GB news.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    So in a few days we've gone back and forth between Alba helping toward a super majority without hurting the SNP, and it costing the SNP their majority (albeit still with a Sindy majority).

    It's driving me spare and we're still a month out - I don't know that my heart will make it through the ructions of the next Sindyref campaign.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
    And yet I know a lot of politically connected people and none can explain it, apart from a few lefties who waffle about xenophobia and a few righties who waffle about freedom and trade, so I genuinely suspect it is a toxic combination of these two stupidities, with generalised apathy about tackling such a difficult problem in an interconnected country like the UK. All this plus the Ebola hangover thing, and a pious belief travel bans "don't work" when it is now absolutely clear that they do
    Which also raises the question if it is "an article of faith" how come Oz and NZ are recusant?
    I know it's much easier to implement there, but, the figures, and the relative lack of any other restrictions shout for themselves, don't they?
    It is lazy, complacent groupthink from people who believe they are smarter than they are. Watching Jonathan "masks don't work" Van Tam today just rammed it home. Why is this waffling no-mark still in a job after that hideous, repeated error?

    They are a clerisy, and they support each other. If they admit one of their number has completely fucked up, all may fall. So they go along with the established beliefs, and bear no bad witness to each other, until such time as they are so absurdly wrong they quietly shift, all at once. Again, see the advice on masks, effortlessly segueing from masks are bad to masks are brilliant, and yet no one lied, and/or no one got it terribly terribly wrong?

    At the end of this, we need a reckoning, A whole cohort of politicians and scientists and civil servants need to be sacked and driven from public life. They have monumentally failed. 150,000 have died, and still more may die.

    This can't be ignored with feeble inquiries like Iraq. This is a once-in-a-century failure of governance, guidance, and public health policy.

    Indeed, and the government is stil basing policies, such as vaccine passports, on their idiotic ideas and failed models. It's weird that you realise they're rubbish at everything and yet still trust them to do right by us on vaccine passport data modelling.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    Italy is about to overtake the UK once again on the Worldometer deaths per million scoreboard, I see.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    It feels like the UK's relatively rapid vaccination programme could make a big difference to that particuluar league table over the coming couple of months.

    Italy will overtake us tomorrow but there are pretty large gaps to anyone else. I suspect we will remain high on this particular leader board even if the gaps are reduced somewhat. January pushed us to a different level to most although some of the eastern European countries are having a terrible time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    kle4 said:

    So in a few days we've gone back and forth between Alba helping toward a super majority without hurting the SNP, and it costing the SNP their majority (albeit still with a Sindy majority).

    It's driving me spare and we're still a month out - I don't know that my heart will make it through the ructions of the next Sindyref campaign.

    Be of good cheer. Boris really is gonna deny Sindyref2, so it won't be until 2024-25 earliest. No point in worrying.

    What will be popcorny fun is Salmond leading the Mahatma Gandhi style civil disobedience, as Nicola watches from Bute House, lip curling in shrewish disapproval, deeply tinged with personal loathing
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,445
    DavidL said:

    Italy is about to overtake the UK once again on the Worldometer deaths per million scoreboard, I see.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    It feels like the UK's relatively rapid vaccination programme could make a big difference to that particuluar league table over the coming couple of months.

    Italy will overtake us tomorrow but there are pretty large gaps to anyone else. I suspect we will remain high on this particular leader board even if the gaps are reduced somewhat. January pushed us to a different level to most although some of the eastern European countries are having a terrible time.
    On excess deaths we were in 16th place a month ago according to this. That was before the vaccination programme started to make a big impact.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Andy_JS said:

    From the article linked to earlier.

    "Public health records, scores of scientific studies and interviews with more than two dozen experts show the policy of unobstructed travel was never based on hard science. It was a political decision, recast as health advice, which emerged after a plague outbreak in India in the 1990s. By the time Covid-19 surfaced, it had become an article of faith.

    “It’s part of the religion of global health: Travel and trade restrictions are bad,” said Lawrence O. Gostin, a professor of global health law at Georgetown University who helped write the global rules known as the International Health Regulations. “I’m one of the congregants.”"

    https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-road-not-traveled

    Politicians and media types are globalists.

    And travel restrictions are anathema to them.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 46,759
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Why have we not completely sealed the border?

    Again, I do not remotely understand, and I will never forgive. We are an island. Take advantage. Close. The. Fucking. Borders
    We're into the second year of this plaintive cry from all political hues on here.
    Yet folk continue to merrily traipse backwards and forwards...
    Which is why I believe there is something we don’t know.

    I do know we are unbelievable economically linked to flights, especially to the US.

    But if might be something as simple as BA saying it will go bust and sell all its Heathrow slots to the Americans
    Wouldn't we simply bail out BA for a year at that point?
    Probably

    My point is that government is usually logical even if wrong. So there is some reason why it hasn’t closed the borders
    That's my sense too. There's a reason which cannot speak its name.
    Which is?
    We don't know.
    But we're all pretty damn sure there must be one. As what we observe makes no sense otherwise.
    It is the political equivalent of dark matter.
    But given that not a single politician seems to be bothered it would mean that the secret was widely known and universally supported.
    And yet I know a lot of politically connected people and none can explain it, apart from a few lefties who waffle about xenophobia and a few righties who waffle about freedom and trade, so I genuinely suspect it is a toxic combination of these two stupidities, with generalised apathy about tackling such a difficult problem in an interconnected country like the UK. All this plus the Ebola hangover thing, and a pious belief travel bans "don't work" when it is now absolutely clear that they do
    Which also raises the question if it is "an article of faith" how come Oz and NZ are recusant?
    I know it's much easier to implement there, but, the figures, and the relative lack of any other restrictions shout for themselves, don't they?
    It is lazy, complacent groupthink from people who believe they are smarter than they are. Watching Jonathan "masks don't work" Van Tam today just rammed it home. Why is this waffling no-mark still in a job after that hideous, repeated error?

    They are a clerisy, and they support each other. If they admit one of their number has completely fucked up, all may fall. So they go along with the established beliefs, and bear no bad witness to each other, until such time as they are so absurdly wrong they quietly shift, all at once. Again, see the advice on masks, effortlessly segueing from masks are bad to masks are brilliant, and yet no one lied, and/or no one got it terribly terribly wrong?

    At the end of this, we need a reckoning, A whole cohort of politicians and scientists and civil servants need to be sacked and driven from public life. They have monumentally failed. 150,000 have died, and still more may die.

    This can't be ignored with feeble inquiries like Iraq. This is a once-in-a-century failure of governance, guidance, and public health policy.

    Indeed, and the government is stil basing policies, such as vaccine passports, on their idiotic ideas and failed models. It's weird that you realise they're rubbish at everything and yet still trust them to do right by us on vaccine passport data modelling.m,
    My support for vaxports has fuck all to do with their shitty models. I just understand human psychology., especially cautious older folk, and I comprehend that things like theatres and concert halls will only reopen with the reassurance provided by vaxports. Otherwise too many people will be too scared

    You can't wish this away with "data on hospitalisations". The public has been successfully terrified - see their support for every severe measure - and it now needs symbolic hand-holding, to lead it back to normality. Vaxports may do that. They are certainly worth a punt

    On this Boris is right
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,043
    Andy_JS said:

    I would not vote Labour if they supported the death penalty. Likewise any other party.

    Such an idea is a total abomination and must never be reintroduced.

    Labour voters seem to be getting more authoritarian. I'm sure the figures would have been lower a few years ago.
    That is surprising, as the more reactionary Labour voters are supposed to have jumped ship to the Tories, or the latest (hopefully last) Farage vehicle to appear on a ballot paper.

    Maybe it is the moderates, repelled by Corbyn that supported Johnson in GE2019 after all. In that case SKSIPM.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    Andy_JS said:

    DavidL said:

    Italy is about to overtake the UK once again on the Worldometer deaths per million scoreboard, I see.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    It feels like the UK's relatively rapid vaccination programme could make a big difference to that particuluar league table over the coming couple of months.

    Italy will overtake us tomorrow but there are pretty large gaps to anyone else. I suspect we will remain high on this particular leader board even if the gaps are reduced somewhat. January pushed us to a different level to most although some of the eastern European countries are having a terrible time.
    On excess deaths we were in 16th place a month ago according to this. That was before the vaccination programme started to make a big impact.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
    I was talking about the worldometer site. I agree we do better on excess deaths.
This discussion has been closed.