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With 6 weeks to go till the Scottish election support for independence edges upwards – politicalbett

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Comments

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,617
    Pulpstar said:

    317,000 second vaccinations per day required to keep pace with the twelve week requirement between now and the end of April.
    I think we'll be below that for a while but the 15 - 30th April could solely see second doses.

    Look away now if you're in your 40s, the required second dose rate goes UP in May

    That will likely depend on the numbers and types of vaccines available.

    If Moderna and Novavax can be used they can be given as first doses while the Pfizer and AZN get used as second doses.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,822
    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    I don't think 'pleasure' is a feature of the brave new post-covid world.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Never thought I'd say this....but bring back Druncker!

    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1375028861549871107?s=20
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    edited March 2021

    Mr. Charles, I agree.

    "Hey, you. Yeah, you. Younger adult. Person unlikely to be affected much by COVID. Whose job was disrupted while the retired were protected. And who hasn't had a jab, unlike the elderly. Stay out of the pub. It's only for the vaccinated."

    I don't like it.

    [As an aside, I won't be personally affected as I'm a massive introvert, which turns out to be a survival trait in 2020-1].

    I actually don't like it anyway, even if everybody had been given the chance to be vaccinated. I'm doing a guest slot with The PB Libertines on this one. Just loitering at the back of the stage with a tambourine, no more than that, won't be trying to elbow out the Pete Doherty that is @Anabobazina and grabbing the mike or anything, but, yes, I'm there.

    The great thing about beating the pandemic will be getting back to normal, and normal is not having to show proof of having had a medical procedure before you can have a pint down the pub. I also don't see the policing of it by pub landlords in this country as a practical proposition. It just feels wrong and I hope it doesn't happen. I don't think it will.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Do we know for sure if vaccines stop or hinder transmission yet?

    We do. .. but do you?
    Right. Not very helpful.

    Of course we know they're effective in stopping symptoms and by virtue, death, but is there data on transmission?

    Because if they do not effectively stop transmission then "vaccine passports" are rather pointless in any case.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,802
    Mr. kinabalu, I agree. The whole point of vaccination is to return us to a semblance of normality.
  • Roger said:

    Interesting episode of Newsnight about the vaccine and where we are. Spoiler alert. Guido followers may be disappointed. It's aimed at adults.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000tj3z/newsnight-24032021

    It was a good episode and just shows Boris is the sane one wanting to dial down the rhetoric
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    That's fair - you just have to forget this part of your post then

    "If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country."

    Two corrections required here. One, no member state of the UK is a "colony". Each are, and always have been, independent sovereign nations, and they will continue to be such. They pool elements of sovereignty in the same way that we continue to do so to be part of NATO.

    Second, Scotland is not a "colony" of UK, or more especially England. Neither is Wales or NI. As I have said many times before, Scots have historically been far more active in being colonisers per head of population than the English during the British Empire. Being a "colony" of England is just another bit of Scottish Nasty Party fake history to stir up more racist hatred of "the English". I am sure it works on the gullible, but it is bullshit.
    When I was a child in the sixties a common Scottish boast was The Scots ran the British Empire and indeed several of my relations had been employed in Tea Plantations in Ceylon - while others now live in Canada and Australia.
    AIUI from history, Wales was conquered. Norn is a bit different, in that it was largely 'settled'.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    Interesting article from Alex Bell, who knows Salmond and Sturgeon well, and how she is much more like him than she may care to admit. When you watch her in action, she really is increasingly like Thatcher (without the self-deprecating humour and love of consensus).

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/alex-bell/3001420/alex-bell-scotland-shown-to-be-in-a-rotten-state-as-gang-ethos-takes-over-government/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    Really can’t see that happening.

    If nothing else, the younger MPs will all want a photo in their local with a pint, on the day the pubs reopen.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    In fact, even if vaccines are very effective in stopping transmission, what is the point of a vaccine passport?

    Are they to protect staff? All vulnerable staff will have been vaccinated as part of Group 6.

    Are they to protect punters? Well if you have a vaccine passport requirement then they are all going to be vaccinated anyway.

    I just don't see why any company would want this.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    1. Fold a map......
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Never thought I'd say this....but bring back Druncker!

    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1375028861549871107?s=20

    Wow, will there will be calls for him to be stripped of his EU pension by this afternoon?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Anyone who thinks that younger people aren't at significant risk from Covid-19 should read this piece by a 29-year old. He didn't die, and he wasn't hospitalised, so he doesn't even make the statistics for severe Covid. Nonetheless...

    https://callumjodwyer.medium.com/where-the-lava-meets-the-sea-7af743cccc0c
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450
    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Charles, I agree.

    "Hey, you. Yeah, you. Younger adult. Person unlikely to be affected much by COVID. Whose job was disrupted while the retired were protected. And who hasn't had a jab, unlike the elderly. Stay out of the pub. It's only for the vaccinated."

    I don't like it.

    [As an aside, I won't be personally affected as I'm a massive introvert, which turns out to be a survival trait in 2020-1].

    I actually don't like it anyway, even if everybody had been given the chance to be vaccinated. I'm doing a guest slot with The PB Libertines on this one. Just loitering at the back of the stage with a tambourine, no more than that, won't be trying to elbow out the Pete Doherty that is @Anabobazina and grabbing the mike or anything, but, yes, I'm there.

    The great thing about beating the pandemic will be getting back to normal, and normal is not having to show proof of having had a medical procedure before you can have a pint down the pub. I also don't see the policing of it by pub landlords in this country as a practical proposition. It just feels wrong and I hope it doesn't happen. I don't think it will.
    There are five drinking establishments in this small town. One of the landlords won't give a damn. He didn't before, got fined and did a crowdfund. The only person who won't be able to get into the Con Club is the manager; everyone else will have been done. Two will be 'fairly' careful, taking regulars word that they've had a test. One is a chain and it's mostly only newcomers and visitors who go there anyway.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Yeah....like you've had a brilliant pandemic:

    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1375038161391325187?s=20
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Never thought I'd say this....but bring back Druncker!

    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1375028861549871107?s=20

    I've said before that the EU really seems to suffer from having no heavy-hitting former PMs/Presidents with the standing to say "hold on a minute....".

    We could lend them Tony Blair.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586

    In fact, even if vaccines are very effective in stopping transmission, what is the point of a vaccine passport?

    Are they to protect staff? All vulnerable staff will have been vaccinated as part of Group 6.

    Are they to protect punters? Well if you have a vaccine passport requirement then they are all going to be vaccinated anyway.

    I just don't see why any company would want this.

    There's no point in a vaccine passport for domestic use. The only reason is for international travel.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450

    Never thought I'd say this....but bring back Druncker!

    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1375028861549871107?s=20

    I've said before that the EU really seems to suffer from having no heavy-hitting former PMs/Presidents with the standing to say "hold on a minute....".

    We could lend them Tony Blair.
    You mean you'd want him back afterwards?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Yeah....like you've had a brilliant pandemic:

    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1375038161391325187?s=20

    "Lessons will be learnt...."

    The lesson learnt being "We didn't do anything badly enough to have to resign. So as you were..."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    Interesting article from Alex Bell, who knows Salmond and Sturgeon well, and how she is much more like him than she may care to admit. When you watch her in action, she really is increasingly like Thatcher (without the self-deprecating humour and love of consensus).

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/alex-bell/3001420/alex-bell-scotland-shown-to-be-in-a-rotten-state-as-gang-ethos-takes-over-government/

    Accurate as well, and she has little Thatcher's skills, just a power mad chancer.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Never thought I'd say this....but bring back Druncker!

    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1375028861549871107?s=20

    I've said before that the EU really seems to suffer from having no heavy-hitting former PMs/Presidents with the standing to say "hold on a minute....".

    We could lend them Tony Blair.
    You mean you'd want him back afterwards?
    It could be a very long lend..... He could become the replacement for UvdL. Maybe Malta or someone could make him a citizen?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    edited March 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. Charles, I agree.

    "Hey, you. Yeah, you. Younger adult. Person unlikely to be affected much by COVID. Whose job was disrupted while the retired were protected. And who hasn't had a jab, unlike the elderly. Stay out of the pub. It's only for the vaccinated."

    I don't like it.

    [As an aside, I won't be personally affected as I'm a massive introvert, which turns out to be a survival trait in 2020-1].

    I actually don't like it anyway, even if everybody had been given the chance to be vaccinated. I'm doing a guest slot with The PB Libertines on this one. Just loitering at the back of the stage with a tambourine, no more than that, won't be trying to elbow out the Pete Doherty that is @Anabobazina and grabbing the mike or anything, but, yes, I'm there.

    The great thing about beating the pandemic will be getting back to normal, and normal is not having to show proof of having had a medical procedure before you can have a pint down the pub. I also don't see the policing of it by pub landlords in this country as a practical proposition. It just feels wrong and I hope it doesn't happen. I don't think it will.
    There are five drinking establishments in this small town. One of the landlords won't give a damn. He didn't before, got fined and did a crowdfund. The only person who won't be able to get into the Con Club is the manager; everyone else will have been done. Two will be 'fairly' careful, taking regulars word that they've had a test. One is a chain and it's mostly only newcomers and visitors who go there anyway.
    Yes, this is the thing. You get all sorts running pubs and so many different types of establishments. Some are quasi restaurants. Some are all "cafe society". Some are still boozers full of boozers - packet of nuts if you need a nibble with your 4th pint.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
    The issue with variants is wildly misunderstood AIUI. Variants may well show a degree of antibody escape from vaccines but it is vanishingly unlikely that they will evade the body's secondary T-Cell response. Now, admittedly that is not ideal, people will be infected, but the virus will mutate on our shores anyway and the antibody response will decrease over time even with the strains we have anyway. Vaccination should push this virus into the list of many coronaviruses we will be infected by on multiple occasions but won't actually cause us serious harm for the rest of ur lives.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited March 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    That's too polite. It is utter crap.

    Starting with peeing standing up, going on through most athletic sports and ending with serial killing, men beat women in so many ways.

    If Trump spouted that nonsense, the whole Twatterati would descend on him.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    Nigelb said:

    A more nuanced article on the move by Intel into the chip foundry business.

    Samsung on high alert over Intel's foundry investments
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2021/03/133_306026.html
    ...Industry analysts said the U.S. is implementing two strategies in order to protect the supply chain of local chip industry ― supporting U.S. chip makers to build new factories there and asking overseas companies to establish new factories in the U.S.

    As seen in the current memory chip industry, which is controlled by the big three companies ― Samsung, SK hynix and Micron ― in the long run the foundry business will be dominated by TSMC of Taiwan, Samsung and Intel.

    The U.S. has already asked the two leading foundry makers ― TSMC of Taiwan and Samsung ― to build new plants there. In response, TSMC already unveiled plans in 2020 to build a $12 billion chip plant in Arizona this year and Samsung is mulling over possible sites for its new chip-making factories.

    Kim Young-woo, an analyst at SK Securities, said the U.S. and Europe will increasingly try to provide incentives to Samsung and TSMC as having their new plants in their countries is the most efficient way of reducing their reliance on Asian countries...

    The Intel move is the only way that they can stay in the game - note the whining from the stock market "experts" about "over investment" and the compliments on the strategy from people in the industry.
    Absolutely - and there's undoubtedly sufficient worldwide demand to support the investment in the near term.
    Some are suggesting they might have been better splitting the company completely into separate businesses, rather than having the foundry side as a subsidiary. Time will tell if the current arrangement is a handicap or not.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200

    Mr. kinabalu, I agree. The whole point of vaccination is to return us to a semblance of normality.

    As it happens, I personally will be staying cautious for a while, probably do outdoors hospitality only until winter, but I do think we should jettison the paraphernalia of the pandemic as soon as we can. So I hope we don't see 'vaxports' except for international travel.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "08:22
    Some positive news from a hospital in Nottingham...

    Mark Simmonds, who works in critical care for Nottingham University Hospitals Trust, has shared a photograph from Queen's Medical Centre.

    A whiteboard at the hospital shows there are no coronavirus patients left in the hospital's COVID ICU.

    Mr Simmonds explained three purpose-made COVID ICUs were created at the hospital during the peak. Two have closed already, while the last patients left this final one yesterday.

    "It will now be thoroughly cleaned and then reopen as an extension to our existing ICU whilst covid numbers remain low," Mr Simmonds said."

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-latest-uk-coronavirus-updates-crucial-vote-on-keeping-emergency-lockdown-powers-for-longer-as-boris-johnson-faces-tory-rebellion-12255952
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    Welcome back Fernando !

    Asked if he thinks he's as good as Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen and Verstappen: "No, I'm better."

    (BBC interview.)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    Cyclefree said:

    allowing marquees to be classified as outside space.....

    I may have put on a few pounds of lockdown lard, but saying I am now classified as an "outside space" is rather harsh!
    😁.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    Harry and Meghan the movie coming out
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Pulpstar said:
    Rolling the pitch for Kamala?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    Not much use here, but granted that's a bit of a niche case.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    That's too polite. It is utter crap.

    Starting with peeing standing up, going on through most athletic sports and ending with serial killing, men beat women in so many ways.

    If Trump spouted that nonsense, the whole Twatterati would descend on him.

    I'd have thought that 'impregnate a woman' would be pretty high on the list..
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005
    edited March 2021

    Do we know for sure if vaccines stop or hinder transmission yet?

    We can take a pretty damn good guess. Israel is reopening more and more.

    image

    R is going through the bloody floor.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    Yes, it certainly smells like that. And if so, it bloody stinks.

    The pettifogging obsession with restrictions needs to go. Soon.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "Denmark to extend its suspension of AstraZeneca vaccine rollout by three weeks - local broadcaster

    TV2 is reporting use of the vaccine will continue to be paused until at least mid-April, citing government sources. Several European countries temporarily paused rollout of the vaccine following reports of rare blood clotting incidents.
    Since then, the EU's medicines regulator has said the vaccine is both safe and effective, and it has not found a causal link."

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-latest-uk-coronavirus-updates-crucial-vote-on-keeping-emergency-lockdown-powers-for-longer-as-boris-johnson-faces-tory-rebellion-12255952
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,989

    Cyclefree said:

    allowing marquees to be classified as outside space.....

    I may have put on a few pounds of lockdown lard, but saying I am now classified as an "outside space" is rather harsh!
    As long as you're not visible from space you are probably ok.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Rolling the pitch for Kamala?
    Oh now presidency of the United States 2024 - 2028 is likely a job the crop of female potential/possible/likely/unlikely/has been/never were candidates - Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, Nikki Hayley, KAMALA HARRIS would do better than the possible men - Biden, Trump, Trump Jr, De Santis, Buttigieg in aggregate.

    100 metre sprinting and weightlifting ? Less so.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    That's too polite. It is utter crap.

    Starting with peeing standing up, going on through most athletic sports and ending with serial killing, men beat women in so many ways.

    If Trump spouted that nonsense, the whole Twatterati would descend on him.

    I'd have thought that 'impregnate a woman' would be pretty high on the list..
    I thought about that, but female doctors can do artificial insemination can't they? And for the other aspects of the act, my female friends tell me that plastic substitutes work as well or better ...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    DougSeal said:

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
    The issue with variants is wildly misunderstood AIUI. Variants may well show a degree of antibody escape from vaccines but it is vanishingly unlikely that they will evade the body's secondary T-Cell response. Now, admittedly that is not ideal, people will be infected, but the virus will mutate on our shores anyway and the antibody response will decrease over time even with the strains we have anyway. Vaccination should push this virus into the list of many coronaviruses we will be infected by on multiple occasions but won't actually cause us serious harm for the rest of ur lives.
    This a thousand times. It depresses me deeply how many terrible articles are written scaremongering about variants.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    That's too polite. It is utter crap.

    Starting with peeing standing up, going on through most athletic sports and ending with serial killing, men beat women in so many ways.

    If Trump spouted that nonsense, the whole Twatterati would descend on him.

    I'd have thought that 'impregnate a woman' would be pretty high on the list..
    Couldn't the verb "impregnate" refer to the action of the medical person implanting eggs...etc etc?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Malta, Hungary & UK in top 3:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    Andy_JS said:

    "Denmark to extend its suspension of AstraZeneca vaccine rollout by three weeks - local broadcaster

    TV2 is reporting use of the vaccine will continue to be paused until at least mid-April, citing government sources. Several European countries temporarily paused rollout of the vaccine following reports of rare blood clotting incidents.
    Since then, the EU's medicines regulator has said the vaccine is both safe and effective, and it has not found a causal link."

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-latest-uk-coronavirus-updates-crucial-vote-on-keeping-emergency-lockdown-powers-for-longer-as-boris-johnson-faces-tory-rebellion-12255952

    #Bonkers
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,746

    Not much use here, but granted that's a bit of a niche case.
    There are clearly lots of things (and the other way, men are not very good at growing babies...). He'd have been better saying 'job' rather than 'thing', but it's just a speech. Do we get over-excited about Benjamin Franklin asserting that "you can do anything you set your mind to"? That's also demonstrably false, no matter how hard I try I'll never be an olympic gold medalist swimmer, from this point (I'm too old and I haven't trained hard enough) but I think we all get what he meant.

    What jobs can a woman not do as well as a man? Extreme weight lifting, maybe some of the ultra-marathon stuff, some/many of the elite sports that are very dependent on strength/power. But for anything that goes beyond pure physical strength? Best soldier? It's more than just strength/endurance, it's making the right decisions.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2021
    Cyclefree said:


    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.

    I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. You've got it completely the wrong way round. It's a possible measure to make pubs (and theatres and concert halls and sports venues) viable, as an alternative to social distancing which wrecks the business model of many businesses. Of course it would be better if we can abandon all constraints, and that is the hope of the government as well as everyone else, but there's no point engaging in fantasy; if the virus is not fully under control, then some measures may still be needed. The choice then might be (a) close the pub completely, (b) open it but with severe social distancing rules, or (c) open it without those restrictions, but allow entry only to those who are vaccinated or tested. If that's the choice, why should the proprietor not be allowed to select (c), which saves her business? Would you prefer (a)?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355
    edited March 2021
    Mortimer said:

    DougSeal said:

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
    The issue with variants is wildly misunderstood AIUI. Variants may well show a degree of antibody escape from vaccines but it is vanishingly unlikely that they will evade the body's secondary T-Cell response. Now, admittedly that is not ideal, people will be infected, but the virus will mutate on our shores anyway and the antibody response will decrease over time even with the strains we have anyway. Vaccination should push this virus into the list of many coronaviruses we will be infected by on multiple occasions but won't actually cause us serious harm for the rest of ur lives.
    This a thousand times. It depresses me deeply how many terrible articles are written scaremongering about variants.
    "It depresses me deeply how many terrible articles are written scaremongering about variants"

    Read up on the horrible backstory of the "X causes cancer!" , "Y cures cancer!" news industry. The scare and hope stories are written according to a formula to create a roller coaster of emotion. Targeting cancer sufferers and their families....

    It doesn't really depress me - more the "War kills X in Africa" level of resignation to The Same Shit, Different Day.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    C'mon chaps. Joe B was just seeking a catchy way to express the sentiment that he's four square behind women's emancipation and has zero tolerance for gender stereotyping. There's no need to go all spluttery about it. Take him seriously not literally.

    #malefragility
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    Unless the tweet isn't accurate, he said "there is no thing a man can do that a woman can't do as well or better", which implies the reverse is not true.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    That's too polite. It is utter crap.

    Starting with peeing standing up, going on through most athletic sports and ending with serial killing, men beat women in so many ways.

    If Trump spouted that nonsense, the whole Twatterati would descend on him.

    I'd have thought that 'impregnate a woman' would be pretty high on the list..
    Couldn't the verb "impregnate" refer to the action of the medical person implanting eggs...etc etc?
    Touché!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    "Not a single thing" - it's not about all men or all women. It's about any human activity.

    He's an idiot. End of story.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Nigelb said:

    Welcome back Fernando !

    Asked if he thinks he's as good as Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen and Verstappen: "No, I'm better."

    (BBC interview.)

    Funny sport, F1, in this respect. All the aficionados rate him as being in the GOAT conversation yet he has only 2 WDCs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,989
    Mortimer said:

    DougSeal said:

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
    The issue with variants is wildly misunderstood AIUI. Variants may well show a degree of antibody escape from vaccines but it is vanishingly unlikely that they will evade the body's secondary T-Cell response. Now, admittedly that is not ideal, people will be infected, but the virus will mutate on our shores anyway and the antibody response will decrease over time even with the strains we have anyway. Vaccination should push this virus into the list of many coronaviruses we will be infected by on multiple occasions but won't actually cause us serious harm for the rest of ur lives.
    This a thousand times. It depresses me deeply how many terrible articles are written scaremongering about variants.
    Even for those on here who are big lockdown/don't leave the country fans, none has shown where or when the accepted science changed from the vaccines being effective or only slightly less effective against variants to them not being effective against variants.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    Selebian said:

    Not much use here, but granted that's a bit of a niche case.
    There are clearly lots of things (and the other way, men are not very good at growing babies...). He'd have been better saying 'job' rather than 'thing', but it's just a speech. Do we get over-excited about Benjamin Franklin asserting that "you can do anything you set your mind to"? That's also demonstrably false, no matter how hard I try I'll never be an olympic gold medalist swimmer, from this point (I'm too old and I haven't trained hard enough) but I think we all get what he meant.

    What jobs can a woman not do as well as a man? Extreme weight lifting, maybe some of the ultra-marathon stuff, some/many of the elite sports that are very dependent on strength/power. But for anything that goes beyond pure physical strength? Best soldier? It's more than just strength/endurance, it's making the right decisions.
    In terms of running the gap closes as the distance lengthens, https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/sports/courtney-dauwalter-200-mile-race.html

    Women are objectively a better choice than men for a potential Mars mission too.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Boris retains much of the support of the country in dealing with COVID but he is putting this at risk with vaccines for pubs and restaurants!

    We have a clear and sensible plan for lockdown:
    - 12 April: outside
    - 17 May: inside with restrictions
    - 21 June: no restrictions

    Everyone knows this and can plan for it. The criteria are being met and we are on the right track.

    We do not need an implicit extension of lockdown such as mandating pubs and restaurants to check for vaccinations or COVID tests.

    Boris was on Sky just now - he didn't exactly deliver a convincing denial of this possibility.

    Stop this now Boris!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    Unless the tweet isn't accurate, he said "there is no thing a man can do that a woman can't do as well or better", which implies the reverse is not true.
    What is it about 'characteristic imprecision' that you don't get ?

    I posted this upthread. Not only a decent impression, but explains Biden's communication mode pretty well.
    https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1374788609983795204
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355
    edited March 2021
    DougSeal said:
    The other way of looking at it - virtually all the cases are 0-64

    But the problem wasn't the number of cases in those groups. It was very, very high CFR, for them.

    image
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
    Except that's not as clear cut as that.

    Yes a pub can refuse a troublemaker or refuse service for an individual if they want to do so, discriminating against groups based on characteristics is another matter.

    A pub can't say "no blacks" because that would violate discrimination laws. A pub landlord can refuse to serve a black person if they have a reason to want to refuse service, they can't have a blanket policy of refusing all black people.
  • Tim Walker of the New European on Sky just now

    'The EU have made a mess of it in a sweet way'

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421

    Cyclefree said:


    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.

    I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. You've got it completely the wrong way round. It's a possible measure to make pubs (and theatres and concert halls and sports venues) viable, as an alternative to social distancing which wrecks the business model of many businesses. Of course it would be better if we can abandon all constraints, and that is the hope of the government as well as everyone else, but there's no point engaging in fantasy; if the virus is not fully under control, then some measures may still be needed. The choice then might be (a) close the pub completely, (b) open it but with severe social distancing rules, or (c) open it without those restrictions, but allow entry only to those who are vaccinated or tested. If that's the choice, why should the proprietor not be allowed to select (c), which saves her business? Would you prefer (a)?
    I think our rate of vaccination deployment makes all these discussions moot, particularly with the cautious dates for reopening, and the high uptake of the vaccine.

    There are only going to be a few weeks where it might make a small difference. Why bother?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    DougSeal said:

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
    The issue with variants is wildly misunderstood AIUI. Variants may well show a degree of antibody escape from vaccines but it is vanishingly unlikely that they will evade the body's secondary T-Cell response. Now, admittedly that is not ideal, people will be infected, but the virus will mutate on our shores anyway and the antibody response will decrease over time even with the strains we have anyway. Vaccination should push this virus into the list of many coronaviruses we will be infected by on multiple occasions but won't actually cause us serious harm for the rest of ur lives.
    This a thousand times. It depresses me deeply how many terrible articles are written scaremongering about variants.
    Even for those on here who are big lockdown/don't leave the country fans, none has shown where or when the accepted science changed from the vaccines being effective or only slightly less effective against variants to them not being effective against variants.
    I can understand the abundance of caution but that is how pandemics end. Viruses are never eleminated - save for smallpox but even that's still in a variety of labs waiting to escape. There's conjecture that the 1889 pandemic was caused by a coronavirus that is still with us and the flu virus that causes the (even more catastrophic) 1918 panemic is still with us. Many on this board have probably caught both at one time or another. But we have immunity. The problem with SARS-COV2 is that it is completely novel.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited March 2021
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    Unless the tweet isn't accurate, he said "there is no thing a man can do that a woman can't do as well or better", which implies the reverse is not true.
    What is it about 'characteristic imprecision' that you don't get ?

    I posted this upthread. Not only a decent impression, but explains Biden's communication mode pretty well.
    https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1374788609983795204
    Just imagine if the genders were reversed in that sentence. Are you sure that wouldn't also be considered a sexist remark?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    DougSeal said:

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    We've seen cases go sideways overall since the schools reopened, but they're now about to close for two weeks. I'd expect case rates to resume their decline with the schools closed for a bit and the cohort of the vaccinated continuing to grow.

    The situation with variants and lax border control is concerning, but the spread of the virus is both slow and fast - any problems from that will not be evident here until after the April 12th reopening stage.
    The issue with variants is wildly misunderstood AIUI. Variants may well show a degree of antibody escape from vaccines but it is vanishingly unlikely that they will evade the body's secondary T-Cell response. Now, admittedly that is not ideal, people will be infected, but the virus will mutate on our shores anyway and the antibody response will decrease over time even with the strains we have anyway. Vaccination should push this virus into the list of many coronaviruses we will be infected by on multiple occasions but won't actually cause us serious harm for the rest of ur lives.
    This a thousand times. It depresses me deeply how many terrible articles are written scaremongering about variants.
    Even for those on here who are big lockdown/don't leave the country fans, none has shown where or when the accepted science changed from the vaccines being effective or only slightly less effective against variants to them not being effective against variants.
    I can understand the abundance of caution but that is how pandemics end. Viruses are never eleminated - save for smallpox but even that's still in a variety of labs waiting to escape. There's conjecture that the 1889 pandemic was caused by a coronavirus that is still with us and the flu virus that causes the (even more catastrophic) 1918 panemic is still with us. Many on this board have probably caught both at one time or another. But we have immunity. The problem with SARS-COV2 is that it is completely novel.
    Catching the virus after vaccination shouldn't be a worry for most people. Before, as Nabavi's piece pointed out - it is.
  • Sandpit said:

    Interest-free government loans should be made available to help up to a million households buy electric cars over the next two years, the shadow business secretary, Ed Miliband, is to argue.

    Focussing on the wrong thing, as ever.
    If government want to get a million electric cars on the road, what they should be investing in is electric vehicle infrastructure.
    Not to mention a significant number of power stations to provide the necessary energy which right simply now isn't available and is unlikely to be so for the foreseeable future. A small detail I know, but one that needs to be tackled before petrol & diesel are withdrawn. Oh and btw, where are all those many billions of tax going to come from to replace the current excise duty on fossil fuels?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
    Except that's not as clear cut as that.

    Yes a pub can refuse a troublemaker or refuse service for an individual if they want to do so, discriminating against groups based on characteristics is another matter.

    A pub can't say "no blacks" because that would violate discrimination laws. A pub landlord can refuse to serve a black person if they have a reason to want to refuse service, they can't have a blanket policy of refusing all black people.
    Why this might need explicit legislation, is age a protected characteristic ?

    A ban on the unvaccinated is for a few months, age based discrimination.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,822
    kinabalu said:

    C'mon chaps. Joe B was just seeking a catchy way to express the sentiment that he's four square behind women's emancipation and has zero tolerance for gender stereotyping. There's no need to go all spluttery about it. Take him seriously not literally.

    #malefragility

    "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

    But outside the world of Lewis Carroll, we rather prefer if Leaders of the Free World use words as the rest of us understand them.
    Because if someone on the right had said something wildly and demonstrably false - or which was true, but made people feel uncomfortable - they would be hounded relentlessly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Welcome back Fernando !

    Asked if he thinks he's as good as Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen and Verstappen: "No, I'm better."

    (BBC interview.)

    Funny sport, F1, in this respect. All the aficionados rate him as being in the GOAT conversation yet he has only 2 WDCs.
    All ?
    Fernando is certainly in that number, but far from all.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
    Except that's not as clear cut as that.

    Yes a pub can refuse a troublemaker or refuse service for an individual if they want to do so, discriminating against groups based on characteristics is another matter.

    A pub can't say "no blacks" because that would violate discrimination laws. A pub landlord can refuse to serve a black person if they have a reason to want to refuse service, they can't have a blanket policy of refusing all black people.
    Why this might need explicit legislation, is age a protected characteristic ?

    A ban on the unvaccinated is for a few months, age based discrimination.
    Age is a protected characteristic. It would be indirect discrimination for a few months and landlords would have to show that it was a proportionate means of acheiving a legitimate aim if challenged upon it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    Unless the tweet isn't accurate, he said "there is no thing a man can do that a woman can't do as well or better", which implies the reverse is not true.
    What is it about 'characteristic imprecision' that you don't get ?

    I posted this upthread. Not only a decent impression, but explains Biden's communication mode pretty well.
    https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1374788609983795204
    Just imagine if the genders were reversed in that sentence. Are you sure that wouldn't also be considered a sexist remark?
    Strange how the same folk who get wound up about the policing of speech are... policing speech.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    edited March 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
    Except that's not as clear cut as that.

    Yes a pub can refuse a troublemaker or refuse service for an individual if they want to do so, discriminating against groups based on characteristics is another matter.

    A pub can't say "no blacks" because that would violate discrimination laws. A pub landlord can refuse to serve a black person if they have a reason to want to refuse service, they can't have a blanket policy of refusing all black people.
    Why this might need explicit legislation, is age a protected characteristic ?

    A ban on the unvaccinated is for a few months, age based discrimination.
    Age is a protected characteristic. It would be indirect discrimination for a few months and landlords would have to show that it was a proportionate means of acheiving a legitimate aim if challenged upon it.
    Looks like it'll be dodged by the err passports being "in development" and coming out only when jabs have been offered to everyone.

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1375049770943844354
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited March 2021
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    Unless the tweet isn't accurate, he said "there is no thing a man can do that a woman can't do as well or better", which implies the reverse is not true.
    What is it about 'characteristic imprecision' that you don't get ?

    I posted this upthread. Not only a decent impression, but explains Biden's communication mode pretty well.
    https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1374788609983795204
    Just imagine if the genders were reversed in that sentence. Are you sure that wouldn't also be considered a sexist remark?
    Strange how the same folk who get wound up about the policing of speech are... policing speech.
    Do I get wound up about the policing of speech? I'm just pointing out what I think. He's totally free to say it, it just makes him look like an idiot.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
    Except that's not as clear cut as that.

    Yes a pub can refuse a troublemaker or refuse service for an individual if they want to do so, discriminating against groups based on characteristics is another matter.

    A pub can't say "no blacks" because that would violate discrimination laws. A pub landlord can refuse to serve a black person if they have a reason to want to refuse service, they can't have a blanket policy of refusing all black people.
    Which is perhaps what the government is proposing in giving landlords a specific power.
    I'm not sure how necessary any of this is, though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    Unless the tweet isn't accurate, he said "there is no thing a man can do that a woman can't do as well or better", which implies the reverse is not true.
    What is it about 'characteristic imprecision' that you don't get ?

    I posted this upthread. Not only a decent impression, but explains Biden's communication mode pretty well.
    https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1374788609983795204
    That's very funny. Also good for Biden that comics are "doing" him. If you can't be "done" as a leading politician you are missing something.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
    That's your daughter's choice. That's why I said "so long as it's landlord's choice". Her choice. Her business, her choice, her decision.

    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she can't check things even if she wants to do so.
    Some people want to make the decision for her and say she must check things (which is what Israel is doing).

    I am saying it needs to be her decision. If its her decision it is not a restriction. It is a freedom for her to choose, however she decides.
    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.
    That would be bollocks if it happens, but you seem to be arguing against something that's not been suggested. So long as restrictions are restricted by 21 June that's the end of the matter for that.

    As for publicans having the right to refuse service, that is true but not unqualified. There's a reason publicans can't eg have a policy of "No blacks, no Irish". I'm not aware of any pub currently or previously checking for medical status and that is a personal matter that pubs may not be allowed to ask about unless they're permitted to ask about it.

    Your daughter may want to welcome everyone, but a hypothetical wet led pub down the road might have an elderly, more vulnerable client base whose customers want them to ensure everyone who comes in is vaccinated. Why should that wet pub be refused the right to ask if that is what they want to do?

    It should be personal choice for everyone.
    As Cyclefree pointed out, it is.
    ...Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please...
    Except that's not as clear cut as that.

    Yes a pub can refuse a troublemaker or refuse service for an individual if they want to do so, discriminating against groups based on characteristics is another matter.

    A pub can't say "no blacks" because that would violate discrimination laws. A pub landlord can refuse to serve a black person if they have a reason to want to refuse service, they can't have a blanket policy of refusing all black people.
    Why this might need explicit legislation, is age a protected characteristic ?

    A ban on the unvaccinated is for a few months, age based discrimination.
    Indeed. Protected characteristics are age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.

    Health status isn't a protected characteristic but then healthcare is private, would asking to see someone's health vaccine status be legal normally or not? I don't know on that one.

    But its not as simple as just saying "right to refuse service".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,355

    Cyclefree said:


    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.

    I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. You've got it completely the wrong way round. It's a possible measure to make pubs (and theatres and concert halls and sports venues) viable, as an alternative to social distancing which wrecks the business model of many businesses. Of course it would be better if we can abandon all constraints, and that is the hope of the government as well as everyone else, but there's no point engaging in fantasy; if the virus is not fully under control, then some measures may still be needed. The choice then might be (a) close the pub completely, (b) open it but with severe social distancing rules, or (c) open it without those restrictions, but allow entry only to those who are vaccinated or tested. If that's the choice, why should the proprietor not be allowed to select (c), which saves her business? Would you prefer (a)?
    I think our rate of vaccination deployment makes all these discussions moot, particularly with the cautious dates for reopening, and the high uptake of the vaccine.

    There are only going to be a few weeks where it might make a small difference. Why bother?
    There are some pubs that have little or no outside space. Also many restaurants. And the inside space they have is often not vast either.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,989
    edited March 2021
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    C'mon chaps. Joe B was just seeking a catchy way to express the sentiment that he's four square behind women's emancipation and has zero tolerance for gender stereotyping. There's no need to go all spluttery about it. Take him seriously not literally.

    #malefragility

    "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

    But outside the world of Lewis Carroll, we rather prefer if Leaders of the Free World use words as the rest of us understand them.
    Because if someone on the right had said something wildly and demonstrably false - or which was true, but made people feel uncomfortable - they would be hounded relentlessly.
    The great news is that you, Cookie of all people, on PB of all places, are now talking about what a woman can and can't do and, once you work it all through, you will come to the conclusion that they can just about, more or less, 100m vs Usain Bolt, etc aside, do anything and everything that men can.

    See what Clever Joe did there?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    allowing marquees to be classified as outside space.....

    I may have put on a few pounds of lockdown lard, but saying I am now classified as an "outside space" is rather harsh!
    As long as you're not visible from space you are probably ok.
    And if you are, you will be a National Treasure.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    New thread!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited March 2021

    Cyclefree said:


    My fear is that this kite-flying to make it a requirement eg if you don't ask you need to keep people 2 metres apart or some such bollocks. There is no need to say anything about this at all. Because all publicans now have the legal right to bar anyone they please.

    So this feels to me like the precursor to some new restriction which will render pubs unviable, especially as that dishonest malicious fool Gove is in charge of it.

    The government promised legal restrictions lifted after 21 June. So remove them. Not replace them with more bossy boots micro-managing.

    I'm sorry, but that is total nonsense. You've got it completely the wrong way round. It's a possible measure to make pubs (and theatres and concert halls and sports venues) viable, as an alternative to social distancing which wrecks the business model of many businesses. Of course it would be better if we can abandon all constraints, and that is the hope of the government as well as everyone else, but there's no point engaging in fantasy; if the virus is not fully under control, then some measures may still be needed. The choice then might be (a) close the pub completely, (b) open it but with severe social distancing rules, or (c) open it without those restrictions, but allow entry only to those who are vaccinated or tested. If that's the choice, why should the proprietor not be allowed to select (c), which saves her business? Would you prefer (a)?
    False choice given herd immunity fast approaching us. Next!


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A bizarre statement from Biden
    https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1374835878439350274

    Demonstrably false.

    Not that strange considering what he's talking about and going on to speak about female Four Star Generals.
    It's totally sexist. He's saying women are equal or better than men at all things, that there is literally nothing a man can do better than a woman.
    It really isn't.
    He didn't say all women, or all men.
    His point, made with characteristic imprecision, is that for any given task women should be considered on their merits, as it's quite possibly that the women candidate will be the best.

    There will be plenty more material from Biden for the PB pedants to get wound up over. It's the way he communicates.
    Why anyone is getting wound up about it is beyond me.
    "Not a single thing" - it's not about all men or all women. It's about any human activity.

    He's an idiot. End of story.
    Or are you the idiot?

    That's where my vote goes.
This discussion has been closed.