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With 6 weeks to go till the Scottish election support for independence edges upwards – politicalbett

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates.

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    Because we are an island nation, and putting borders down the middle is nuts (I accept the argument in Ireland is different). We share so much, we have been British for thousands of years (longer than we have been English Scottish or Welsh, indeed). It is madness to throw all that away in a spasm of resentment. We are arguably the most successful political union in history, shaping the world far in advance of our geographic or demographic salience

    Nationalism is riding a wave, it does not mean it is always victorious. But, all four nations have desires that need addressing. Boris really should call a Grand National Convention to honestly discuss every alternative, to unitary government to outright separatism.

    What must not happen is a vote-in-the-dark Sindyref 2 where the SNP get to say Oh indy, without actually offering concrete plans on currency, borders, army, bank, debt, EU membership, etc etc

    On the other hand, the Union has to come up with positive reasons why we are all better as a united kingdom, Project Fear 2.0 will not work when the 2nd referendum comes around (which it will, eventually, just not anytime soon)
    I'm English. I'm perfectly happy to be British too. I can see the strategic advantages to the UK. But not at any price, which, it increasingly seems, is what the English are being asked to pay, both financially and constitutionally.
    And quite honestly, it's embarrassing being in a country run like Scotland is run.
    I sympathise, and I too have felt a reflexive dismay at the obvious one-party-state corruption in Scotland. It's not that Scots are different or mad, it's just that it is a small country, which makes it easier for one nationalist party to weaponise national identity in an extremely toxic form: that scares enemies, and makes cowards cower.

    Occasionally I too have thought, oh FFS let them go. This is rank.

    But we are all British and we are all better than this. We will endure. And this too shall pass.

    And with these non-innovative but apposite thoughts I say goodnight, PB, goodnight
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    alex_ said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.
    You keep promoting this policy. What are you going to do with the twentysomethings who won’t get their jabs until
    June or even July? Lock them up at home with Zoom while you go down the pub? The young have already made huge sacrifices and the vulnerable will have been vaccinated by the time indoor pubs open in May.
    So not a "voluntary" scheme at all. Basically co-ercion and blackmail. I sense court challenges...
    Nick seems fully behind the policy. He’s not explained why, or how he expects it to work though.
    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    You have a strange idea Wales has the same direction as Scotland

    Please take it from me Welsh Independence is not on the agenda anytime soon and not with the help of labour either
    Do you think that Welsh independence would get a boost IF Scotland left the Union?
    Yes, big time.
    Depends - it would be a bumpy ole ride. Wales may look on and think “nah”
    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.
    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    Current thinking is Labour and the EU, but Scottish Independence would focus Welsh minds (like in Scotland} on their serfdom, and a break from their English feudal landlords is thus almost inevitable.
    Scotland at least can leave the UK for the EU which it voted to remain in, Wales voted Leave so if it left the UK too it would be completely alone
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    alex_ said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    You have a strange idea Wales has the same direction as Scotland

    Please take it from me Welsh Independence is not on the agenda anytime soon and not with the help of labour either
    Do you think that Welsh independence would get a boost IF Scotland left the Union?
    Yes, big time.
    Depends - it would be a bumpy ole ride. Wales may look on and think “nah”
    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.
    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    Current thinking is Labour and the EU, but Scottish Independence would focus Welsh minds (like in Scotland} on their serfdom, and a break from their English feudal landlords is thus almost inevitable.
    Have the Welsh found a way to go from north to south of their country without going via England yet?
    Well, a colony is run for the benefit of its master ... so I would not expect the transport system in Wales to have been developed with the Welsh in mind.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    edited March 2021

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    55% of voters thinking the royal family is not racist, only 20% thinking it is racist is a pretty solid result.

    Most of the Commonwealth nations are now republics anyway and the Commonwealth has a separate Secretary General, the monarch is merely titular head, the largest Commonwealth nations which continue to retain the Queen as Head of State, Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc, tend to be white majority still
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.

    No, absolutely not to this utterly stupid suggestion.

    Daughter completely opposed to this. Neither her nor any of her employees will be vaccinated by then. If you don't need a vaccination to work in a pub you don't need one to drink in it. She cannot afford the staff to go round doing tests, demanding certificates or anything else. And people want to go to pubs to enjoy themselves not be treated as if they're at some out patients clinic.

    Lift the restrictions and allow publicans to run their businesses as they see fit. This endless micro-managing by people who have no understanding of this - or any other - business has got to stop.

    We were told that once deaths and cases were down restrictions would be lifted. They are down and will be even lower by May let alone by the end of June. So enough with the restrictions.

    It feels - and has for some time - felt that somewhere in government they are deliberately targeting pubs so as to make them unviable, regardless of Covid. Look at the nonsense re not allowing them to sell takeaway alcohol, even now, for instance, and the pitiful support given to wet led pubs.

    If this sort of nonsense continues Daughter is simply going to close her business. There is no point continuing if the government makes it impossible for her to trade profitably. It's been in the balance for a while. She's been holding on and on and on. But stuff like this being canvassed - let alone introduced - is just another kick in the teeth.


    I agree. However, there's a pub near me in a beauty spot that sells takeaway pints (and food) – but you can buy a pint without buying food. It's great on a sunny Saturday.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    I would be interested what the same groups think about in general...I suspect a similar percentage of youngsters would say all sorts of groups are racist, Brexiteers, Tories, the police, ...
    Could be. BUT reckon that the % has gone up sharply for Royals recently.
    No, even before this the polls showed a strong age split:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/863893/support-for-the-monarchy-in-britain-by-age/
    Without going on deep dive at this site, do NOT see anything re: public opinion by age group re: is monarchy racist? from before the Meghan crisis.

    Just not seeing it - literally!

    Certainly nothing new about younger voters being more down on major institutions than older ones, including monarchy.

    But still think that The Interview MUST have risen the numbers, esp. of young, who think that Royals are more racist than not.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Mishandled it how? By allowing Meghan within five miles of the Royal Family in the first place?
    They are two for two on Americans coming in and trying to ruin it.
    IF your were charitable (admittedly NOT a major PB virtue) then you might argue that Wallis SAVED the monarchy, by ensuring that her boy-toy got the heave-ho BEFORE he could inflict serious damage.

    As for Meghan, happen to agree with you re; the 5-mile limit.

    BUT fact is, she & Harry got hitched despite the angst of family & ire of flunkies (or visa versa). AND the Palace did NOT deal with this reality at all well. Instead, just about as badly as they could.

    Replicating in the process many of the same mistakes they made re: Diana.

    Blaming the Duch of Sux over and over and over and over is no doubt emotionally satisfying. But useless as plan or policy.
    We don't actually know that the Palace dealt with it as badly as they possibly could. Because we simply don't have all the facts merely a very carefully curated and edited version of Harry's version, a version which he admitted was untrue in one respect - the claim that they married 3 days before the actual wedding.

    The belief that the fault is all on the Palace's side rests on the assumption that Harry and Meghan intended to make things work and tried their best and did absolutely nothing wrong. That is an assumption which needs testing not accepting without more.

    Incidentally, he is now joining some commission to deal with misinformation in the media. While he is to be praised for his work on mental health, he would do well to think about what he says to the media before telling others off about misinformation. There are any number of things which he said in his recent and earlier interviews which would fall very clearly fall within any reasonable definition of misinformation. Stones and glasshouses .......
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I am wonder how we got from the military police kicking the doors down of a vaccine factory in the morning, the afternoon the EC agreeing new rules that basically singled out the UK for blocking vaccine exports, to this evening "peace deal"....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1374855858862047247?s=19

    Because it was never going to happen, complete theatre and sabre rattling as you would have known if you’d listened to me all week!
    Except it has already happened, you only have to ask Australia.
    The EUROPEAN export ban. I have now clarified this THREE times. Does anyone else want to mention Australia before I go to bed???
    I remember a month or so ago where people were saying that the export control mechanism would never be used.
    There might well have been, however, I have never expressed such view. My forecast has always been about the much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.
    You keep promoting this policy. What are you going to do with the twentysomethings who won’t get their jabs until
    June or even July? Lock them up at home with Zoom while you go down the pub? The young have already made huge sacrifices and the vulnerable will have been vaccinated by the time indoor pubs open in May.
    So not a "voluntary" scheme at all. Basically co-ercion and blackmail. I sense court challenges...
    Nick seems fully behind the policy. He’s not explained why, or how he expects it to work though.
    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.
    And at some point the Government has to start re-engaging directly with businesses about what makes them viable, and what THEY need to drive the economic recovery in this country. And start asking hard questions of themselves (and if necessary the scientists) whether they can justify destroying otherwise healthy businesses (and not withstanding that Covid has put them on the back foot) through retaining restrictions of varying levels through "an abundance of caution".

    It was scary reading the comments of the "expert" on Marr on Sunday, stating blithely that we, and indeed business(!), had "learned to live" with various low level restrictions and therefore there were little consequences from retaining them for a length period. If continuing restrictions are necessary in her eyes then fair enough. But don't let yourself off the hook by pretending (outside of your area of expertise) that there are no consequences of such a position.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I am wonder how we got from the military police kicking the doors down of a vaccine factory in the morning, the afternoon the EC agreeing new rules that basically singled out the UK for blocking vaccine exports, to this evening "peace deal"....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1374855858862047247?s=19

    Because it was never going to happen, complete theatre and sabre rattling as you would have known if you’d listened to me all week!
    Except it has already happened, you only have to ask Australia.
    The EUROPEAN export ban. I have now clarified this THREE times. Does anyone else want to mention Australia before I go to bed???
    I remember a month or so ago where people were saying that the export control mechanism would never be used.
    There might well have been, however, I have expressed such view. My forecast has always been about the much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban.

    My point is that it was viewed by many that the EU would never ban exports, despite having a mechanism to do so. Look what happened.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Here we go....
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I am wonder how we got from the military police kicking the doors down of a vaccine factory in the morning, the afternoon the EC agreeing new rules that basically singled out the UK for blocking vaccine exports, to this evening "peace deal"....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1374855858862047247?s=19

    Because it was never going to happen, complete theatre and sabre rattling as you would have known if you’d listened to me all week!
    Except it has already happened, you only have to ask Australia.
    The EUROPEAN export ban. I have now clarified this THREE times. Does anyone else want to mention Australia before I go to bed???
    I remember a month or so ago where people were saying that the export control mechanism would never be used.
    There might well have been, however, I have expressed such view. My forecast has always been about the much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban.

    My point is that it was viewed by many that the EU would never ban exports, despite having a mechanism to do so. Look what happened.
    Again, some PBers might have said this. I have never cast any opinion on it.

    What I have said, since Monday, is that much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban won't happen and never was going to happen. And it won't happen.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Mishandled it how? By allowing Meghan within five miles of the Royal Family in the first place?
    They are two for two on Americans coming in and trying to ruin it.
    IF your were charitable (admittedly NOT a major PB virtue) then you might argue that Wallis SAVED the monarchy, by ensuring that her boy-toy got the heave-ho BEFORE he could inflict serious damage.

    As for Meghan, happen to agree with you re; the 5-mile limit.

    BUT fact is, she & Harry got hitched despite the angst of family & ire of flunkies (or visa versa). AND the Palace did NOT deal with this reality at all well. Instead, just about as badly as they could.

    Replicating in the process many of the same mistakes they made re: Diana.

    Blaming the Duch of Sux over and over and over and over is no doubt emotionally satisfying. But useless as plan or policy.
    We don't actually know that the Palace dealt with it as badly as they possibly could. Because we simply don't have all the facts merely a very carefully curated and edited version of Harry's version, a version which he admitted was untrue in one respect - the claim that they married 3 days before the actual wedding.

    The belief that the fault is all on the Palace's side rests on the assumption that Harry and Meghan intended to make things work and tried their best and did absolutely nothing wrong. That is an assumption which needs testing not accepting without more.

    Incidentally, he is now joining some commission to deal with misinformation in the media. While he is to be praised for his work on mental health, he would do well to think about what he says to the media before telling others off about misinformation. There are any number of things which he said in his recent and earlier interviews which would fall very clearly fall within any reasonable definition of misinformation. Stones and glasshouses .......
    Never said it was "all" the Palace's fault. Just that they've dealt with it most stupidly.

    Whatever the rights & wrongs, pros & cons, it's clear that Meghan as been running rings around the Palace.

    Admittedly NOT among geezers, traditionalists & suchlike.

    However, it would be BETTER for the Royals IF they did a bit LESS well with these groups, and a damn sight better with younger folks. And NOT just in UK, but world wide.

    My guess is that the Buck House no-Brains Trust is trying to figure out how to deploy Will & Kate to good advantage. Say a major post-COVID royal tour of the Commonwealth?
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    alex_ said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    You have a strange idea Wales has the same direction as Scotland

    Please take it from me Welsh Independence is not on the agenda anytime soon and not with the help of labour either
    Do you think that Welsh independence would get a boost IF Scotland left the Union?
    Yes, big time.
    Depends - it would be a bumpy ole ride. Wales may look on and think “nah”
    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.
    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    Current thinking is Labour and the EU, but Scottish Independence would focus Welsh minds (like in Scotland} on their serfdom, and a break from their English feudal landlords is thus almost inevitable.
    Have the Welsh found a way to go from north to south of their country without going via England yet?
    Could fly, or go by boat.
    Seriously though it is possible but the a470 is seriously hard work. Wales's geography just does not lend itself to a motorway through the middle, or even a train line. Will never happen.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I am wonder how we got from the military police kicking the doors down of a vaccine factory in the morning, the afternoon the EC agreeing new rules that basically singled out the UK for blocking vaccine exports, to this evening "peace deal"....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1374855858862047247?s=19

    Because it was never going to happen, complete theatre and sabre rattling as you would have known if you’d listened to me all week!
    Except it has already happened, you only have to ask Australia.
    The EUROPEAN export ban. I have now clarified this THREE times. Does anyone else want to mention Australia before I go to bed???
    I remember a month or so ago where people were saying that the export control mechanism would never be used.
    There might well have been, however, I have expressed such view. My forecast has always been about the much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban.

    My point is that it was viewed by many that the EU would never ban exports, despite having a mechanism to do so. Look what happened.
    Again, some PBers might have said this. I have never cast any opinion on it.

    What I have said, since Monday, is that much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban won't happen and never was going to happen. And it won't happen.
    And you keep missing my point, which is that there was great confidence before that the EU would not ban anything.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited March 2021

    alex_ said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.
    You keep promoting this policy. What are you going to do with the twentysomethings who won’t get their jabs until
    June or even July? Lock them up at home with Zoom while you go down the pub? The young have already made huge sacrifices and the vulnerable will have been vaccinated by the time indoor pubs open in May.
    So not a "voluntary" scheme at all. Basically co-ercion and blackmail. I sense court challenges...
    Nick seems fully behind the policy. He’s not explained why, or how he expects it to work though.
    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.
    I have no idea about the regularity of his pub-going, but nevertheless, the policy doesn't stack up on any level. Regardless of the moral arguments, which we've covered, the practicalities render the policy absurd.
    isam said:

    alex_ said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.
    You keep promoting this policy. What are you going to do with the twentysomethings who won’t get their jabs until
    June or even July? Lock them up at home with Zoom while you go down the pub? The young have already made huge sacrifices and the vulnerable will have been vaccinated by the time indoor pubs open in May.
    So not a "voluntary" scheme at all. Basically co-ercion and blackmail. I sense court challenges...
    Nick seems fully behind the policy. He’s not explained why, or how he expects it to work though.
    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.
    Small sample size, but 100% of the times I have met Nick it was in a pub. To put it another way, I have never seen Nick Palmer outside of a boozer
    Did you see him leave or indeed enter the pub?

    Maybe he is there 100% of the time.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "Virginia governor signs bill to abolish death penalty"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56512691
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Thursday.
    Hope everyone is stoked for the Newfoundland and Labrador Provincial Election?
    Thought so. :)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,532



    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.

    You're missing the point. I'm not thinking of myself, or anyone in the older generation. The point is that we've all worked through more than a year of difficulty in order to FINALLY get the pandemic down to a low level., so risking a resurgence at the very tailend of that and finding ourselves all locked down again next winter seems bonkers for everyone. The point is not vaccinated people, or the death rate, but whether we should be perpetuating the pandemic just when we've got it down.

    It's summer coming. Loads of people will be fine with drinking outside the pub. Give it a few months so we get the infection rate down to a few dozen a day, and then we can loosen up as the darker evenings approach. Remember that the scientists are predicting a new wave anyway - why would we deliberately set out to make that worse at exactly the time of year when indoor crowds are least needed?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.
    You keep promoting this policy. What are you going to do with the twentysomethings who won’t get their jabs until
    June or even July? Lock them up at home with Zoom while you go down the pub? The young have already made huge sacrifices and the vulnerable will have been vaccinated by the time indoor pubs open in May.
    So not a "voluntary" scheme at all. Basically co-ercion and blackmail. I sense court challenges...
    Nick seems fully behind the policy. He’s not explained why, or how he expects it to work though.
    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.
    And at some point the Government has to start re-engaging directly with businesses about what makes them viable, and what THEY need to drive the economic recovery in this country. And start asking hard questions of themselves (and if necessary the scientists) whether they can justify destroying otherwise healthy businesses (and not withstanding that Covid has put them on the back foot) through retaining restrictions of varying levels through "an abundance of caution".

    It was scary reading the comments of the "expert" on Marr on Sunday, stating blithely that we, and indeed business(!), had "learned to live" with various low level restrictions and therefore there were little consequences from retaining them for a length period. If continuing restrictions are necessary in her eyes then fair enough. But don't let yourself off the hook by pretending (outside of your area of expertise) that there are no consequences of such a position.
    That "expert" is an ignorant idiot.

    Businesses have not learnt to live with restrictions. They have been shut down and stopped from doing business, kept on inadequate support, have in many cases closed down and their staff have been expected to live on 80% of their previous income, paid for by the government. Many have built up debts which will never be repaid.

    The NHS has not been overwhelmed. Deaths and cases are down significantly and continuing to fall further. There is a good vaccination programme underway. Enough with the restrictions.

    If the government goes back on its word (I know, I know) there will be anger and despair. Rightly so. The micro-managing bossy boots need to be told to take a running jump.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    A malign stench which is simply barely mentioned over here.
    To do so would be unseemly, verging on the unpatriotic, when one could be putting the boot into Harry and Meg.
    Or fawning over "Kate's Cuties".
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Here we go....
    Don't worry, I'll cease & desist, for now.

    Not sure you can say the same for US Dept of Justice . . .
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.

    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    It is a good question. It certainly is one that hasn't troubled any Welsh politician for a very long time.

    Wales suffers from systemic problems in public services, rampant corruption & cronyism, poor education & health services and a fragile, unstable economy.

    But, worst of all — and so unlike Scotland — there is no sign of competent, inspiring political leadership plotting a way forward for the country out of the morass.

    Wales seemingly cannot change its current trajectory. Any better option for Wales requires much better leadership, which is not available in any of the major parties.

    It is hard to be positive for Wales.

    In the short term, the removal of the Labour Party (who have governed Wales forever and done so very little) would be a start, but it is idle to pretend there is a much better option waiting in the wings.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410



    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.

    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    It is a good question. It certainly is one that hasn't troubled any Welsh politician for a very long time.

    Wales suffers from systemic problems in public services, rampant corruption & cronyism, poor education & health services and a fragile, unstable economy.

    But, worst of all — and so unlike Scotland — there is no sign of competent, inspiring political leadership plotting a way forward for the country out of the morass.

    Wales seemingly cannot change its current trajectory. Any better option for Wales requires much better leadership, which is not available in any of the major parties.

    It is hard to be positive for Wales.

    In the short term, the removal of the Labour Party (who have governed Wales forever and done so very little) would be a start, but it is idle to pretend there is a much better option waiting in the wings.
    Maybe a Tory/PC coalition would flush the system?
    Oh..."precious Union".
    Forgot about that.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I am wonder how we got from the military police kicking the doors down of a vaccine factory in the morning, the afternoon the EC agreeing new rules that basically singled out the UK for blocking vaccine exports, to this evening "peace deal"....

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1374855858862047247?s=19

    Because it was never going to happen, complete theatre and sabre rattling as you would have known if you’d listened to me all week!
    Except it has already happened, you only have to ask Australia.
    The EUROPEAN export ban. I have now clarified this THREE times. Does anyone else want to mention Australia before I go to bed???
    I remember a month or so ago where people were saying that the export control mechanism would never be used.
    There might well have been, however, I have expressed such view. My forecast has always been about the much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban.

    My point is that it was viewed by many that the EU would never ban exports, despite having a mechanism to do so. Look what happened.
    Again, some PBers might have said this. I have never cast any opinion on it.

    What I have said, since Monday, is that much vaunted EUROPEAN export ban won't happen and never was going to happen. And it won't happen.
    And you keep missing my point, which is that there was great confidence before that the EU would not ban anything.
    No you are missing my point, but this is boring now!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559



    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.

    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    It is a good question. It certainly is one that hasn't troubled any Welsh politician for a very long time.

    Wales suffers from systemic problems in public services, rampant corruption & cronyism, poor education & health services and a fragile, unstable economy.

    But, worst of all — and so unlike Scotland — there is no sign of competent, inspiring political leadership plotting a way forward for the country out of the morass.

    Wales seemingly cannot change its current trajectory. Any better option for Wales requires much better leadership, which is not available in any of the major parties.

    It is hard to be positive for Wales.

    In the short term, the removal of the Labour Party (who have governed Wales forever and done so very little) would be a start, but it is idle to pretend there is a much better option waiting in the wings.
    West Virginia with a sea coast?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518



    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.

    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    It is a good question. It certainly is one that hasn't troubled any Welsh politician for a very long time.

    Wales suffers from systemic problems in public services, rampant corruption & cronyism, poor education & health services and a fragile, unstable economy.

    But, worst of all — and so unlike Scotland — there is no sign of competent, inspiring political leadership plotting a way forward for the country out of the morass.

    Wales seemingly cannot change its current trajectory. Any better option for Wales requires much better leadership, which is not available in any of the major parties.

    It is hard to be positive for Wales.

    In the short term, the removal of the Labour Party (who have governed Wales forever and done so very little) would be a start, but it is idle to pretend there is a much better option waiting in the wings.
    An unfortunate consequence of FPTP electoral system is that once areas en masse, cease to become politically competitive, or at least largely irrelevant to the purpose of securing a governing majority then they will lose influence at the highest level. Interestingly Wales have flirted in recent years with making themselves a far more relevant factor at Westminster - both by encouraging the Conservatives to invest in the country for political gain and forcing Labour to re-evaluate how the approach what they traditionally saw as their private fiefdom, but have not quite made the final step. I think they are in a very different position to Scotland, where post referendum, the independence question dominates everything.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited March 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Mishandled it how? By allowing Meghan within five miles of the Royal Family in the first place?
    They are two for two on Americans coming in and trying to ruin it.
    IF your were charitable (admittedly NOT a major PB virtue) then you might argue that Wallis SAVED the monarchy, by ensuring that her boy-toy got the heave-ho BEFORE he could inflict serious damage.

    As for Meghan, happen to agree with you re; the 5-mile limit.

    BUT fact is, she & Harry got hitched despite the angst of family & ire of flunkies (or visa versa). AND the Palace did NOT deal with this reality at all well. Instead, just about as badly as they could.

    Replicating in the process many of the same mistakes they made re: Diana.

    Blaming the Duch of Sux over and over and over and over is no doubt emotionally satisfying. But useless as plan or policy.
    We don't actually know that the Palace dealt with it as badly as they possibly could. Because we simply don't have all the facts merely a very carefully curated and edited version of Harry's version, a version which he admitted was untrue in one respect - the claim that they married 3 days before the actual wedding.

    The belief that the fault is all on the Palace's side rests on the assumption that Harry and Meghan intended to make things work and tried their best and did absolutely nothing wrong. That is an assumption which needs testing not accepting without more.

    Incidentally, he is now joining some commission to deal with misinformation in the media. While he is to be praised for his work on mental health, he would do well to think about what he says to the media before telling others off about misinformation. There are any number of things which he said in his recent and earlier interviews which would fall very clearly fall within any reasonable definition of misinformation. Stones and glasshouses .......
    Never said it was "all" the Palace's fault. Just that they've dealt with it most stupidly.

    Whatever the rights & wrongs, pros & cons, it's clear that Meghan as been running rings around the Palace.

    Admittedly NOT among geezers, traditionalists & suchlike.

    However, it would be BETTER for the Royals IF they did a bit LESS well with these groups, and a damn sight better with younger folks. And NOT just in UK, but world wide.

    My guess is that the Buck House no-Brains Trust is trying to figure out how to deploy Will & Kate to good advantage. Say a major post-COVID royal tour of the Commonwealth?
    I'm not at all sure H&M have run rings round the Palace at all. I was a bit of a fan of Meghan when she came on the scene. Now I feel as if I am being played by them. I particularly dislike the way private conversations are plastered across the media as well as vague accusations against unspecified people. The first seems to me to be untrustworthy; the latter dishonourable. I will be interested to learn the results of the legal firm's investigation.

    I rather wish they just got on with their new - and apparently interesting - lives than endlessly sniping at the people they have left behind. That seems to me to be both sad and unkind. People who are contented in the choices they have made - especially when they involve a break with a previous life - don't usually spend their time constantly harping on about the past.
    Spin-doctoring is a form of disinformation, if not downright misinformation. And has been a part of politics since before Brutus murdered the noble (or was it dispatched the tyrannical?) Caesar.

    From international (and commonwealth) perspective, seems clear that Meghan has indeed been besting her foes in the PR game. AND she's had an impact with UK youth and people of color.

    AND do you think the Palace has NOT been guilty of spinning like a top on this subject?

    For example, am personally prepared to believe that Meghan can be (and was) a bully. However, has the Palace offered any actually evidence for this?

    So Bucks House and H&M are both spinning their webs. Just seems to me that Meghan is WAY better at it. Just like Diana was.

    Again, I do NOT like Meghan. Never have, thought she was bad news pretty much from the get-go.

    Though at the time of the wedding, thought things would be ok, even a plus for The Firm.

    Until they (with M's help no doubt) screwed up . . . ahem . . . royally.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    Well it's a view. I'm not sure it's an accurate one. And i really think your views about Harry and Meghan (as per your discussion with Cyclefree) are being massively filtered through an American lens. Possibly (no doubt you'll put me right) this is partly influenced by the absurd sight of defence of the Royal Family apparently becoming a new Trumpian/Foxian/Republican cause celebre. I'm sure the Royal family appreciate the "help". Not. But there we are. The Royal family and the institution of the monarchy has been through far far worse.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172



    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.

    You're missing the point. I'm not thinking of myself, or anyone in the older generation. The point is that we've all worked through more than a year of difficulty in order to FINALLY get the pandemic down to a low level., so risking a resurgence at the very tailend of that and finding ourselves all locked down again next winter seems bonkers for everyone. The point is not vaccinated people, or the death rate, but whether we should be perpetuating the pandemic just when we've got it down.

    It's summer coming. Loads of people will be fine with drinking outside the pub. Give it a few months so we get the infection rate down to a few dozen a day, and then we can loosen up as the darker evenings approach. Remember that the scientists are predicting a new wave anyway - why would we deliberately set out to make that worse at exactly the time of year when indoor crowds are least needed?
    The point is any activity comes with some risk.

    You need to provide some evidence that the risk of allowing unvaccinated young people into pubs is a significant one.

    I have no problem with you -- or other elderly people -- living a hermetic life in which you stay in your capacious property & have everything delivered. That is your choice. Fine.

    Other people have different perspectives. Before you ban lots of activities for others, you do need to show that the risk you have identified is a real and substantial one.

    FWIW, most young people I know are certainly flouting many of the existing rules. They have not cocooned themselves indoors in cotton-wool for months, waiting for Waitrose deliveries left on the steps in front of closed front-doors.

    I think the suggestion that only vaccinated 50+ year old people can go to pubs is unfair and, yes, selfish.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    Well it's a view. I'm not sure it's an accurate one. And i really think your views about Harry and Meghan (as per your discussion with Cyclefree) are being massively filtered through an American lens. Possibly (no doubt you'll put me right) this is partly influenced by the absurd sight of defence of the Royal Family apparently becoming a new Trumpian/Foxian/Republican cause celebre. I'm sure the Royal family appreciate the "help". Not. But there we are. The Royal family and the institution of the monarchy has been through far far worse.
    So...

    I'm a Brit in America, and I must admit the US coverage is that H&M have been appallingly treated by HM.

    By contrast, the UK coverage is the inverse.

    I'm following the principle of not giving a shit.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,617

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    A problem has been how the royal family has grown.

    Fifty years ago it consisted of:

    Elizabeth
    Philip
    Queen Mother
    Margaret
    Charles
    Anne
    Andrew
    Edward

    Now only Margaret and the Queen Mother are no longer around but the four children have married and divorced multiple times, had children and their children have married and had children.

    With yet another one today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eXsYVwSajQ
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    Well it's a view. I'm not sure it's an accurate one. And i really think your views about Harry and Meghan (as per your discussion with Cyclefree) are being massively filtered through an American lens. Possibly (no doubt you'll put me right) this is partly influenced by the absurd sight of defence of the Royal Family apparently becoming a new Trumpian/Foxian/Republican cause celebre. I'm sure the Royal family appreciate the "help". Not. But there we are. The Royal family and the institution of the monarchy has been through far far worse.
    My perspective on royal family has zero to do with Trumpsky. His embrace of the royals, mimicked by his MAGA loyalists, has much more to do with their racism than veneration for monarchy.

    As for "been though far worse" well, that's what the Habsburgs & Hohenzollerns & Romanovs & etc., etc. used to say!

    Though personally think the House of Windor-Mountbatten-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Hanover-What-Have-You will in fact endure.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited March 2021

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    Well it's a view. I'm not sure it's an accurate one. And i really think your views about Harry and Meghan (as per your discussion with Cyclefree) are being massively filtered through an American lens. Possibly (no doubt you'll put me right) this is partly influenced by the absurd sight of defence of the Royal Family apparently becoming a new Trumpian/Foxian/Republican cause celebre. I'm sure the Royal family appreciate the "help". Not. But there we are. The Royal family and the institution of the monarchy has been through far far worse.
    My perspective on royal family has zero to do with Trumpsky. His embrace of the royals, mimicked by his MAGA loyalists, has much more to do with their racism than veneration for monarchy.

    As for "been though far worse" well, that's what the Habsburgs & Hohenzollerns & Romanovs & etc., etc. used to say!

    Though personally think the House of Windor-Mountbatten-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Hanover-What-Have-You will in fact endure.

    Trump's embrace of the royals has more to do with their racism? What the hell are you on about?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    alex_ said:



    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.

    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    It is a good question. It certainly is one that hasn't troubled any Welsh politician for a very long time.

    Wales suffers from systemic problems in public services, rampant corruption & cronyism, poor education & health services and a fragile, unstable economy.

    But, worst of all — and so unlike Scotland — there is no sign of competent, inspiring political leadership plotting a way forward for the country out of the morass.

    Wales seemingly cannot change its current trajectory. Any better option for Wales requires much better leadership, which is not available in any of the major parties.

    It is hard to be positive for Wales.

    In the short term, the removal of the Labour Party (who have governed Wales forever and done so very little) would be a start, but it is idle to pretend there is a much better option waiting in the wings.
    An unfortunate consequence of FPTP electoral system is that once areas en masse, cease to become politically competitive, or at least largely irrelevant to the purpose of securing a governing majority then they will lose influence at the highest level. Interestingly Wales have flirted in recent years with making themselves a far more relevant factor at Westminster - both by encouraging the Conservatives to invest in the country for political gain and forcing Labour to re-evaluate how the approach what they traditionally saw as their private fiefdom, but have not quite made the final step. I think they are in a very different position to Scotland, where post referendum, the independence question dominates everything.
    I would agree that Wales has been very loyal to Labour, and has been forgotten about in return.

    That is indeed a malign consequence of the FPTP system. There is no reason for Labour to do anything for Wales, if it always delivers docile Labour MPs and a Labour dominated Senedd. The political attention & resources go to where the marginal seats are.

    The Central Belt and Red Wall finally learnt this -- you have much more leverage if you are disloyal to Labour.

    Who knows? Perhaps Wales will eventually.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    A problem has been how the royal family has grown.

    Fifty years ago it consisted of:

    Elizabeth
    Philip
    Queen Mother
    Margaret
    Charles
    Anne
    Andrew
    Edward

    Now only Margaret and the Queen Mother are no longer around but the four children have married and divorced multiple times, had children and their children have married and had children.

    With yet another one today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eXsYVwSajQ
    What yours truly cannot stand, are those stupid quasi-hats!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    Well it's a view. I'm not sure it's an accurate one. And i really think your views about Harry and Meghan (as per your discussion with Cyclefree) are being massively filtered through an American lens. Possibly (no doubt you'll put me right) this is partly influenced by the absurd sight of defence of the Royal Family apparently becoming a new Trumpian/Foxian/Republican cause celebre. I'm sure the Royal family appreciate the "help". Not. But there we are. The Royal family and the institution of the monarchy has been through far far worse.
    My perspective on royal family has zero to do with Trumpsky. His embrace of the royals, mimicked by his MAGA loyalists, has much more to do with their racism than veneration for monarchy.

    As for "been though far worse" well, that's what the Habsburgs & Hohenzollerns & Romanovs & etc., etc. used to say!

    Though personally think the House of Windor-Mountbatten-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Hanover-What-Have-You will in fact endure.

    Trump's embrace of the royals has more to do with their racism? What the hell are you on about?
    Meaghan is mixed race. Just like Obama. OR did you miss that?

    Trumpsky's "defense" of Royals versus Meaghan is just another one of this infamous dog whistles.

    Another way for him to play his (and Bannon's) favorite card - the race card.

    Not their (the royals) racism, which personally think is WAY overblown. But Trumpsky's racism, which is not debatable.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Mishandled it how? By allowing Meghan within five miles of the Royal Family in the first place?
    They are two for two on Americans coming in and trying to ruin it.
    IF your were charitable (admittedly NOT a major PB virtue) then you might argue that Wallis SAVED the monarchy, by ensuring that her boy-toy got the heave-ho BEFORE he could inflict serious damage.

    As for Meghan, happen to agree with you re; the 5-mile limit.

    BUT fact is, she & Harry got hitched despite the angst of family & ire of flunkies (or visa versa). AND the Palace did NOT deal with this reality at all well. Instead, just about as badly as they could.

    Replicating in the process many of the same mistakes they made re: Diana.

    Blaming the Duch of Sux over and over and over and over is no doubt emotionally satisfying. But useless as plan or policy.
    We don't actually know that the Palace dealt with it as badly as they possibly could. Because we simply don't have all the facts merely a very carefully curated and edited version of Harry's version, a version which he admitted was untrue in one respect - the claim that they married 3 days before the actual wedding.

    The belief that the fault is all on the Palace's side rests on the assumption that Harry and Meghan intended to make things work and tried their best and did absolutely nothing wrong. That is an assumption which needs testing not accepting without more.

    Incidentally, he is now joining some commission to deal with misinformation in the media. While he is to be praised for his work on mental health, he would do well to think about what he says to the media before telling others off about misinformation. There are any number of things which he said in his recent and earlier interviews which would fall very clearly fall within any reasonable definition of misinformation. Stones and glasshouses .......
    Never said it was "all" the Palace's fault. Just that they've dealt with it most stupidly.

    Whatever the rights & wrongs, pros & cons, it's clear that Meghan as been running rings around the Palace.

    Admittedly NOT among geezers, traditionalists & suchlike.

    However, it would be BETTER for the Royals IF they did a bit LESS well with these groups, and a damn sight better with younger folks. And NOT just in UK, but world wide.

    My guess is that the Buck House no-Brains Trust is trying to figure out how to deploy Will & Kate to good advantage. Say a major post-COVID royal tour of the Commonwealth?
    I'm not at all sure H&M have run rings round the Palace at all. I was a bit of a fan of Meghan when she came on the scene. Now I feel as if I am being played by them. I particularly dislike the way private conversations are plastered across the media as well as vague accusations against unspecified people. The first seems to me to be untrustworthy; the latter dishonourable. I will be interested to learn the results of the legal firm's investigation.

    I rather wish they just got on with their new - and apparently interesting - lives than endlessly sniping at the people they have left behind. That seems to me to be both sad and unkind. People who are contented in the choices they have made - especially when they involve a break with a previous life - don't usually spend their time constantly harping on about the past.
    Spin-doctoring is a form of disinformation, if not downright misinformation. And has been a part of politics since before Brutus murdered the noble (or was it dispatched the tyrannical?) Caesar.

    From international (and commonwealth) perspective, seems clear that Meghan has indeed been besting her foes in the PR game. AND she's had an impact with UK youth and people of color.

    AND do you think the Palace has NOT been guilty of spinning like a top on this subject?

    For example, am personally prepared to believe that Meghan can be (and was) a bully. However, has the Palace offered any actually evidence for this?

    So Bucks House and H&M are both spinning their webs. Just seems to me that Meghan is WAY better at it. Just like Diana was.

    Again, I do NOT like Meghan. Never have, thought she was bad news pretty much from the get-go.

    Though at the time of the wedding, thought things would be ok, even a plus for The Firm.

    Until they (with M's help no doubt) screwed up . . . ahem . . . royally.
    Oh I'm sure the Palace do spin.

    Re the bullying allegations, there is apparently going to be an independent investigation by a law firm so we will see what that says.

    There is some evidence that H&M were perhaps not the best of bosses. Lots of their staff left, there was a big turnover and that has continued since they left the UK. When people cannot keep staff for any length of time, not even staff they've recently hired, it does suggest that there may be an issue with their man-management.

    The Palace has said - rightly in my view - that this should be dealt with privately. Then we get to hear from friends of the couple about their private calls with Charles and William. Frankly, if that happened to me I would not have any call or letter because I would not be able to trust them.

    When a person apparently falls out with their own family and their spouse's family and a number of friends and a lot of their staff, it just might be worth asking themselves whether they might be a teensy amount at fault rather than apparently claiming that everyone else is.

    Anyway goodnight all.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Politico.com - Blue-state Republicans slump without Trump as foil
    Some of the nation’s most popular governors have been knocked off their pedestals.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/trump-gop-governors-baker-hogan-scott-477718

    For two reasons mostly

    1. Since #45 is no longer president, therefore GOP governors like Hogan (Maryland), Baker (Mass) and Scott (Vermont) can no longer score points with Dems just by bashing You-Know-Who.

    2. Less-than-stellar performance re: anti-COVID vaccinations in their states.


    In context of first point, note that in WA State, the only Republican to win statewide office in 2020, incumbent Secretary of State Kim Wyman, was greatly helped with Democratic voters thanks to her opposition to Trumpsky's attacks on free & fair elections, especially her defense of mail voting.

    IF she runs again in 2024, she will NOT have this going for her, not to same degree.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464

    alex_ said:



    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.

    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    It is a good question. It certainly is one that hasn't troubled any Welsh politician for a very long time.

    Wales suffers from systemic problems in public services, rampant corruption & cronyism, poor education & health services and a fragile, unstable economy.

    But, worst of all — and so unlike Scotland — there is no sign of competent, inspiring political leadership plotting a way forward for the country out of the morass.

    Wales seemingly cannot change its current trajectory. Any better option for Wales requires much better leadership, which is not available in any of the major parties.

    It is hard to be positive for Wales.

    In the short term, the removal of the Labour Party (who have governed Wales forever and done so very little) would be a start, but it is idle to pretend there is a much better option waiting in the wings.
    An unfortunate consequence of FPTP electoral system is that once areas en masse, cease to become politically competitive, or at least largely irrelevant to the purpose of securing a governing majority then they will lose influence at the highest level. Interestingly Wales have flirted in recent years with making themselves a far more relevant factor at Westminster - both by encouraging the Conservatives to invest in the country for political gain and forcing Labour to re-evaluate how the approach what they traditionally saw as their private fiefdom, but have not quite made the final step. I think they are in a very different position to Scotland, where post referendum, the independence question dominates everything.
    I would agree that Wales has been very loyal to Labour, and has been forgotten about in return.

    That is indeed a malign consequence of the FPTP system. There is no reason for Labour to do anything for Wales, if it always delivers docile Labour MPs and a Labour dominated Senedd. The political attention & resources go to where the marginal seats are.

    The Central Belt and Red Wall finally learnt this -- you have much more leverage if you are disloyal to Labour.

    Who knows? Perhaps Wales will eventually.
    I am hoping that events in Liverpool City Council with Joe Anderson's (ahem) "deals" will lead to a shake up - its solidly red though only 11 years ago was a LD stronghold with a sprinkling of old school liberals and Greens.... the corruption scandal may lead to a shake up...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Mishandled it how? By allowing Meghan within five miles of the Royal Family in the first place?
    They are two for two on Americans coming in and trying to ruin it.
    IF your were charitable (admittedly NOT a major PB virtue) then you might argue that Wallis SAVED the monarchy, by ensuring that her boy-toy got the heave-ho BEFORE he could inflict serious damage.

    As for Meghan, happen to agree with you re; the 5-mile limit.

    BUT fact is, she & Harry got hitched despite the angst of family & ire of flunkies (or visa versa). AND the Palace did NOT deal with this reality at all well. Instead, just about as badly as they could.

    Replicating in the process many of the same mistakes they made re: Diana.

    Blaming the Duch of Sux over and over and over and over is no doubt emotionally satisfying. But useless as plan or policy.
    We don't actually know that the Palace dealt with it as badly as they possibly could. Because we simply don't have all the facts merely a very carefully curated and edited version of Harry's version, a version which he admitted was untrue in one respect - the claim that they married 3 days before the actual wedding.

    The belief that the fault is all on the Palace's side rests on the assumption that Harry and Meghan intended to make things work and tried their best and did absolutely nothing wrong. That is an assumption which needs testing not accepting without more.

    Incidentally, he is now joining some commission to deal with misinformation in the media. While he is to be praised for his work on mental health, he would do well to think about what he says to the media before telling others off about misinformation. There are any number of things which he said in his recent and earlier interviews which would fall very clearly fall within any reasonable definition of misinformation. Stones and glasshouses .......
    Never said it was "all" the Palace's fault. Just that they've dealt with it most stupidly.

    Whatever the rights & wrongs, pros & cons, it's clear that Meghan as been running rings around the Palace.

    Admittedly NOT among geezers, traditionalists & suchlike.

    However, it would be BETTER for the Royals IF they did a bit LESS well with these groups, and a damn sight better with younger folks. And NOT just in UK, but world wide.

    My guess is that the Buck House no-Brains Trust is trying to figure out how to deploy Will & Kate to good advantage. Say a major post-COVID royal tour of the Commonwealth?
    I'm not at all sure H&M have run rings round the Palace at all. I was a bit of a fan of Meghan when she came on the scene. Now I feel as if I am being played by them. I particularly dislike the way private conversations are plastered across the media as well as vague accusations against unspecified people. The first seems to me to be untrustworthy; the latter dishonourable. I will be interested to learn the results of the legal firm's investigation.

    I rather wish they just got on with their new - and apparently interesting - lives than endlessly sniping at the people they have left behind. That seems to me to be both sad and unkind. People who are contented in the choices they have made - especially when they involve a break with a previous life - don't usually spend their time constantly harping on about the past.
    Spin-doctoring is a form of disinformation, if not downright misinformation. And has been a part of politics since before Brutus murdered the noble (or was it dispatched the tyrannical?) Caesar.

    From international (and commonwealth) perspective, seems clear that Meghan has indeed been besting her foes in the PR game. AND she's had an impact with UK youth and people of color.

    AND do you think the Palace has NOT been guilty of spinning like a top on this subject?

    For example, am personally prepared to believe that Meghan can be (and was) a bully. However, has the Palace offered any actually evidence for this?

    So Bucks House and H&M are both spinning their webs. Just seems to me that Meghan is WAY better at it. Just like Diana was.

    Again, I do NOT like Meghan. Never have, thought she was bad news pretty much from the get-go.

    Though at the time of the wedding, thought things would be ok, even a plus for The Firm.

    Until they (with M's help no doubt) screwed up . . . ahem . . . royally.
    Oh I'm sure the Palace do spin.

    Re the bullying allegations, there is apparently going to be an independent investigation by a law firm so we will see what that says.

    There is some evidence that H&M were perhaps not the best of bosses. Lots of their staff left, there was a big turnover and that has continued since they left the UK. When people cannot keep staff for any length of time, not even staff they've recently hired, it does suggest that there may be an issue with their man-management.

    The Palace has said - rightly in my view - that this should be dealt with privately. Then we get to hear from friends of the couple about their private calls with Charles and William. Frankly, if that happened to me I would not have any call or letter because I would not be able to trust them.

    When a person apparently falls out with their own family and their spouse's family and a number of friends and a lot of their staff, it just might be worth asking themselves whether they might be a teensy amount at fault rather than apparently claiming that everyone else is.

    Anyway goodnight all.
    That reminds me of my time at Goldman, where my two bosses were complaining about how they couldn't get good secretarial help: people were either terrible at the job, or they quit, and why couldn't Goldman HR just find someone great...

    And I said... "hmmm... after 14 assistants in less than a year, you do have to start asking if it's the assistants that are the problem here..."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    Further AZN data out for the US trial.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/astrazeneca-vaccine-477946

    76% effective rather than 79, but still not fully analysed. So the figures are pretty well consistent with what they previously reported.
    The massive dump on them in the last day or so by regulators and commentators seems greatly overdone to me, even though I acknowledge they could and should have worded the PR more cautiously.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:

    Further AZN data out for the US trial.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/astrazeneca-vaccine-477946

    76% effective rather than 79, but still not fully analysed. So the figures are pretty well consistent with what they previously reported.
    The massive dump on them in the last day or so by regulators and commentators seems greatly overdone to me, even though I acknowledge they could and should have worded the PR more cautiously.

    Did US regulators suspect that AZ's PR dept was trying to pull a fast one, playing fast & lose with data? That they were deliberately cherry-picking?

    Realize that it is the duty of all good Brits to come to the aid of your pharma. And certainly think preponderance of evidence appears to be on AZ's side, in sense that, if it was offered to me (before I got Pfizered) I would take it for sure.

    But wonder IF the company is indeed responsible for some of its own problems right now?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210

    Nigelb said:

    Further AZN data out for the US trial.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/astrazeneca-vaccine-477946

    76% effective rather than 79, but still not fully analysed. So the figures are pretty well consistent with what they previously reported.
    The massive dump on them in the last day or so by regulators and commentators seems greatly overdone to me, even though I acknowledge they could and should have worded the PR more cautiously.

    Did US regulators suspect that AZ's PR dept was trying to pull a fast one, playing fast & lose with data? That they were deliberately cherry-picking?

    Realize that it is the duty of all good Brits to come to the aid of your pharma. And certainly think preponderance of evidence appears to be on AZ's side, in sense that, if it was offered to me (before I got Pfizered) I would take it for sure.

    But wonder IF the company is indeed responsible for some of its own problems right now?
    No question, as I acknowledged in my comment above.

    But the idea that they were “trying to pull a fast one”, and the amount of blowback they have taken on this, are absurd.
    They are still analysing the data, a process which necessarily takes time, and any submission to the FDA for approval will include all the data. The effect of the earlier, slightly optimistic PR on that will be zero.

    And when they said that emerging data was ‘consistent’ with the fully analysed interim results, they were not lying, and it is a stretch to describe it as more than marginally misleading.

    If AZN’s PR has been poor, then so has that of regulators and medical professionals whose gross overreaction has provided significant ammunition for antivaxers.
    Responsibility cuts both ways.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    Nigelb said:

    Further AZN data out for the US trial.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/astrazeneca-vaccine-477946

    76% effective rather than 79, but still not fully analysed. So the figures are pretty well consistent with what they previously reported.
    The massive dump on them in the last day or so by regulators and commentators seems greatly overdone to me, even though I acknowledge they could and should have worded the PR more cautiously.

    Of course it's overdone.

    AZN is safe and effective.

    *However*, AZN management has done an appalling job of managing the process: from the initial fuck ups with dosing, to being rejected for authorization in Switzerland, to threatening to sue a trial member in India, to Macron's comments, to being withdrawn from use in South Africa.

    The problem is that AZ/Oxford has an image problem. And when you have an image problem, you suffer from people (particularly journalists and the like) seeking confirmation bias. Image problems cause image problems cause image problems. It will only
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,210
    edited March 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Further AZN data out for the US trial.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/astrazeneca-vaccine-477946

    76% effective rather than 79, but still not fully analysed. So the figures are pretty well consistent with what they previously reported.
    The massive dump on them in the last day or so by regulators and commentators seems greatly overdone to me, even though I acknowledge they could and should have worded the PR more cautiously.

    Of course it's overdone.

    AZN is safe and effective.

    *However*, AZN management has done an appalling job of managing the process: from the initial fuck ups with dosing, to being rejected for authorization in Switzerland, to threatening to sue a trial member in India, to Macron's comments, to being withdrawn from use in South Africa.

    The problem is that AZ/Oxford has an image problem. And when you have an image problem, you suffer from people (particularly journalists and the like) seeking confirmation bias. Image problems cause image problems cause image problems. It will only
    Again, of course.
    But I am pushing back at a narrative which is false. And which regulators and medical professionals have publicly contributed to.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.

    twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1374844345036201991/photo/1

    I just can't see any pub doing it. What pub that has been closed off and on for nearly a year is going to turn down business, and that's before the issue of trying to tell the public who are gagging to get back down the pub, sorry lad, your names not down your not coming in. There will be riots.
    The only ones I can imagine doing it are small ones with lots of reliable elderly regulars who don't want someone taking the piss and risking their safety. But if that's what the landlord and the regulars want that should be their free choice, the others will choose differently.
    According to thr Guardian, the trade-off Johnson is considering is that pubs that insist will be allowed to waive social distancing, while it would remain legally required in pubs open to all. Would that be acceptable to you, or do you feel that indoor crowding is fine regardless?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

    I can't really see many pubs making social distancing work - round here you could only get about 20 punters in 2 metres apart.

    No, absolutely not to this utterly stupid suggestion.

    Daughter completely opposed to this. Neither her nor any of her employees will be vaccinated by then. If you don't need a vaccination to work in a pub you don't need one to drink in it. She cannot afford the staff to go round doing tests, demanding certificates or anything else. And people want to go to pubs to enjoy themselves not be treated as if they're at some out patients clinic.

    Lift the restrictions and allow publicans to run their businesses as they see fit. This endless micro-managing by people who have no understanding of this - or any other - business has got to stop.

    We were told that once deaths and cases were down restrictions would be lifted. They are down and will be even lower by May let alone by the end of June. So enough with the restrictions.

    It feels - and has for some time - felt that somewhere in government they are deliberately targeting pubs so as to make them unviable, regardless of Covid. Look at the nonsense re not allowing them to sell takeaway alcohol, even now, for instance, and the pitiful support given to wet led pubs.

    If this sort of nonsense continues Daughter is simply going to close her business. There is no point continuing if the government makes it impossible for her to trade profitably. It's been in the balance for a while.She's been holding on and on and on. But stuff like this being canvassed - let alone introduced - is just another kick in the teeth.


    For what it's worth, personally think that hospitality workers SHOULD get priority for vaccination.

    Note that in WA State (and no doubt other places) similar priority now for grocery store workers. Who are clearly essentially workers, at least for the 99.46% of us who like to eat semi-regularly.

    Bar & restaurant workers may NOT be as essential (though you & daughter may disagree) but IF bars & etc. are going to open on a significant basis, then staff should be protected the best way possible.

    And that's with a jab or two.
    The USA seems to have tonnes of "priority" groups, and loads of even youngish people I follow on twitter are getting vaxxed there.
    But yet your vaccination rates are behind the UK.
    The collorary is there must be vast swathes of people who aren't bothering in a scale that simply isn't happening in the UK
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Further AZN data out for the US trial.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/24/astrazeneca-vaccine-477946

    76% effective rather than 79, but still not fully analysed. So the figures are pretty well consistent with what they previously reported.
    The massive dump on them in the last day or so by regulators and commentators seems greatly overdone to me, even though I acknowledge they could and should have worded the PR more cautiously.

    Of course it's overdone.

    AZN is safe and effective.

    *However*, AZN management has done an appalling job of managing the process: from the initial fuck ups with dosing, to being rejected for authorization in Switzerland, to threatening to sue a trial member in India, to Macron's comments, to being withdrawn from use in South Africa.

    The problem is that AZ/Oxford has an image problem. And when you have an image problem, you suffer from people (particularly journalists and the like) seeking confirmation bias. Image problems cause image problems cause image problems. It will only
    AZN has a problem. It is not just taking on the problems we are aware of, but the American capitalist model. A Vaccine or any medical treatment, that is not for profit, is far more dangerous than Covid and must be stopped at any cost. We are just observing the lengths that big pharma is prepared to go to to protect their profits.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216


    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    1. Which ones?
    2. What has Andrew been convicted of?
  • LindonLightLindonLight Posts: 96
    edited March 2021
    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    When people can sleep properly again.

    There will be plenty who have had their eyes opened to the real Nicola Sturgeon. And the Scotland that she represents is not all milk and honey.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    A problem has been how the royal family has grown.

    Fifty years ago it consisted of:

    Elizabeth
    Philip
    Queen Mother
    Margaret
    Charles
    Anne
    Andrew
    Edward

    Now only Margaret and the Queen Mother are no longer around but the four children have married and divorced multiple times, had children and their children have married and had children.

    With yet another one today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eXsYVwSajQ
    What yours truly cannot stand, are those stupid quasi-hats!
    Where else is she going to keep her darts?
  • On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    Hardly utopian. Everyone being jabbed is a great thing in of itself, but it hasn't yet brought about change. It's the change that will feed into polling change. Not so much until.

    And Sturgeon is chaining herself to the anchor of the EU. Leaving the UK for that? Hardly a "utopian vision" they have laid out: prepared to kill your elderly, your infirm, in the name of The Project not losing face...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Interest-free government loans should be made available to help up to a million households buy electric cars over the next two years, the shadow business secretary, Ed Miliband, is to argue.

    Focussing on the wrong thing, as ever.
    If government want to get a million electric cars on the road, what they should be investing in is electric vehicle infrastructure.
  • LindonLightLindonLight Posts: 96
    edited March 2021

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    Hardly utopian. Everyone being jabbed is a great thing in of itself, but it hasn't yet brought about change. It's the change that will feed into polling change. Not so much until.

    .
    The Tories led by 13% two weeks ago in the aftermath of the budget. Even if that was an outlier they were pushing to around 10%.

    My point is, I am wondering if that may have been the peak. I'm not entirely convinced they will again attain those dizzy heights in this Parliament.

    Incidentally, your hyperbole about the EU may have resonance but I'm also sensing over the last few days that the EU are equipping themselves better. There are some good articles about it on the BBC and Sky today.

    So I also think trough EU may have passed.

    I'll spell it out again, because I think this has betting implications, I sense things have changed in the political landscape.
  • Example of two articles to which I referred:

    https://news.sky.com/story/they-have-played-god-with-peoples-lives-the-story-behind-europes-astrazeneca-blame-game-12255905

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52380823

    I'm not at the moment a particularly great fan of the EU but there are some good points in those pieces. Mark's hyperbole is not entirely fair or appropriate.

    I also think it's undeniable that the UK could have done its own thing on vaccines whilst still being in the EU. We would have been in a true Win-Win had we done so: inside the EU and thus vetoing any nonsense from von der Leyen, whilst going our own way on procurements. Germany has struck its own deal with Pfizer which is strictly speaking not permitted.

    I don't think we ever quite got it that the best thing to do with the EU instead of railing against it was to be as independent as we liked whilst reaping all the considerable benefits. That's what France and Germany do when it suits them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Mishandled it how? By allowing Meghan within five miles of the Royal Family in the first place?
    They are two for two on Americans coming in and trying to ruin it.
    IF your were charitable (admittedly NOT a major PB virtue) then you might argue that Wallis SAVED the monarchy, by ensuring that her boy-toy got the heave-ho BEFORE he could inflict serious damage.

    As for Meghan, happen to agree with you re; the 5-mile limit.

    BUT fact is, she & Harry got hitched despite the angst of family & ire of flunkies (or visa versa). AND the Palace did NOT deal with this reality at all well. Instead, just about as badly as they could.

    Replicating in the process many of the same mistakes they made re: Diana.

    Blaming the Duch of Sux over and over and over and over is no doubt emotionally satisfying. But useless as plan or policy.
    We don't actually know that the Palace dealt with it as badly as they possibly could. Because we simply don't have all the facts merely a very carefully curated and edited version of Harry's version, a version which he admitted was untrue in one respect - the claim that they married 3 days before the actual wedding.

    The belief that the fault is all on the Palace's side rests on the assumption that Harry and Meghan intended to make things work and tried their best and did absolutely nothing wrong. That is an assumption which needs testing not accepting without more.

    Incidentally, he is now joining some commission to deal with misinformation in the media. While he is to be praised for his work on mental health, he would do well to think about what he says to the media before telling others off about misinformation. There are any number of things which he said in his recent and earlier interviews which would fall very clearly fall within any reasonable definition of misinformation. Stones and glasshouses .......
    Never said it was "all" the Palace's fault. Just that they've dealt with it most stupidly.

    Whatever the rights & wrongs, pros & cons, it's clear that Meghan as been running rings around the Palace.

    Admittedly NOT among geezers, traditionalists & suchlike.

    However, it would be BETTER for the Royals IF they did a bit LESS well with these groups, and a damn sight better with younger folks. And NOT just in UK, but world wide.

    My guess is that the Buck House no-Brains Trust is trying to figure out how to deploy Will & Kate to good advantage. Say a major post-COVID royal tour of the Commonwealth?
    I'm not at all sure H&M have run rings round the Palace at all. I was a bit of a fan of Meghan when she came on the scene. Now I feel as if I am being played by them. I particularly dislike the way private conversations are plastered across the media as well as vague accusations against unspecified people. The first seems to me to be untrustworthy; the latter dishonourable. I will be interested to learn the results of the legal firm's investigation.

    I rather wish they just got on with their new - and apparently interesting - lives than endlessly sniping at the people they have left behind. That seems to me to be both sad and unkind. People who are contented in the choices they have made - especially when they involve a break with a previous life - don't usually spend their time constantly harping on about the past.
    Spin-doctoring is a form of disinformation, if not downright misinformation. And has been a part of politics since before Brutus murdered the noble (or was it dispatched the tyrannical?) Caesar.

    From international (and commonwealth) perspective, seems clear that Meghan has indeed been besting her foes in the PR game. AND she's had an impact with UK youth and people of color.

    AND do you think the Palace has NOT been guilty of spinning like a top on this subject?

    For example, am personally prepared to believe that Meghan can be (and was) a bully. However, has the Palace offered any actually evidence for this?

    So Bucks House and H&M are both spinning their webs. Just seems to me that Meghan is WAY better at it. Just like Diana was.

    Again, I do NOT like Meghan. Never have, thought she was bad news pretty much from the get-go.

    Though at the time of the wedding, thought things would be ok, even a plus for The Firm.

    Until they (with M's help no doubt) screwed up . . . ahem . . . royally.
    Oh I'm sure the Palace do spin.

    Re the bullying allegations, there is apparently going to be an independent investigation by a law firm so we will see what that says.

    There is some evidence that H&M were perhaps not the best of bosses. Lots of their staff left, there was a big turnover and that has continued since they left the UK. When people cannot keep staff for any length of time, not even staff they've recently hired, it does suggest that there may be an issue with their man-management.

    The Palace has said - rightly in my view - that this should be dealt with privately. Then we get to hear from friends of the couple about their private calls with Charles and William. Frankly, if that happened to me I would not have any call or letter because I would not be able to trust them.

    When a person apparently falls out with their own family and their spouse's family and a number of friends and a lot of their staff, it just might be worth asking themselves whether they might be a teensy amount at fault rather than apparently claiming that everyone else is.

    Anyway goodnight all.
    That reminds me of my time at Goldman, where my two bosses were complaining about how they couldn't get good secretarial help: people were either terrible at the job, or they quit, and why couldn't Goldman HR just find someone great...

    And I said... "hmmm... after 14 assistants in less than a year, you do have to start asking if it's the assistants that are the problem here..."
    Then they found one who stayed for a bit, and when they went through the annual budgets realised she was getting paid £100k a year, and asked HR why they were spending so much on a damn secretary?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    How prescient of Cameron to have foreseen that lobbying would be the next political scandal.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2021
    IanB2 said:

    How prescient of Cameron to have foreseen that lobbying would be the next political scandal.

    Indeed.

    Smart chap, that Cameron guy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    The navy seems to be out in force this morning.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited March 2021

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    A problem has been how the royal family has grown.

    Fifty years ago it consisted of:

    Elizabeth
    Philip
    Queen Mother
    Margaret
    Charles
    Anne
    Andrew
    Edward

    Now only Margaret and the Queen Mother are no longer around but the four children have married and divorced multiple times, had children and their children have married and had children.

    With yet another one today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eXsYVwSajQ
    Why is that a problem?

    Very few actually receive public funds.

    One of the kerfuffles around H&M is that they are not having access to public money any more, which is quite right given their decision to walk away.

    Very nice fascinator in the pic.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited March 2021
    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Example of two articles to which I referred:

    https://news.sky.com/story/they-have-played-god-with-peoples-lives-the-story-behind-europes-astrazeneca-blame-game-12255905

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52380823

    I'm not at the moment a particularly great fan of the EU but there are some good points in those pieces. Mark's hyperbole is not entirely fair or appropriate.

    I also think it's undeniable that the UK could have done its own thing on vaccines whilst still being in the EU. We would have been in a true Win-Win had we done so: inside the EU and thus vetoing any nonsense from von der Leyen, whilst going our own way on procurements. Germany has struck its own deal with Pfizer which is strictly speaking not permitted.

    I don't think we ever quite got it that the best thing to do with the EU instead of railing against it was to be as independent as we liked whilst reaping all the considerable benefits. That's what France and Germany do when it suits them.

    How's that going for France and Germany right now?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    I think Johnson will ride the vaccination wave for a good while yet, but I do agree with you about Sturgeon having passed her trough - added to which, the Scottish Tories have badly overplayed their hand.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    I'm never getting my Nvidia 3090 am I....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    AlistairM said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
    ...and justify their now massive fees!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited March 2021
    AlistairM said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
    Let’s hope so. But sadly I doubt it.

    Here’s the issue, and it what you can’t see in photos. The bow and stern sections are both very much beached, at the front there’s 60-70m of bank higher than the 16m draught of the ship.
    https://twitter.com/marcelvandenber/status/1374821546225762308

    They’re going to have to dredge a lot of bank out of the way, lose a lot of weight from the ship and get a lot of tugs to it. They had 7 or 8 tugs on it yesterday, and they didn’t come close to shifting it.

    It’s 400m long and 59m wide, much bigger than most people can conceive - for any journalists reading, thats four Wembley football pitches laid end to end.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    AlistairM said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
    ...and justify their now massive fees!
    Salvage teams when there’s a ship blocking the Suez Canal, are a bit like vaccine manufacturing plants during a global pandemic.

    No matter what the price, it’s infinitely cheaper than any possible alternative.
    (There will be lots of marine salvage guys with no mortgages by next month!)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited March 2021
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interest-free government loans should be made available to help up to a million households buy electric cars over the next two years, the shadow business secretary, Ed Miliband, is to argue.

    Focussing on the wrong thing, as ever.
    If government want to get a million electric cars on the road, what they should be investing in is electric vehicle infrastructure.
    Yes, I think battery and car prices will continue to drop. What we need is a system of chargers that are universal, cheap and easy to use in places where houses and flats are. If restricted to houses with driveways, urban residents will find it difficult to adopt.
    Which would be a bit unfortunate given it’s in urban driving that electric vehicles really score over ICE.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826



    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.

    You're missing the point. I'm not thinking of myself, or anyone in the older generation. The point is that we've all worked through more than a year of difficulty in order to FINALLY get the pandemic down to a low level., so risking a resurgence at the very tailend of that and finding ourselves all locked down again next winter seems bonkers for everyone. The point is not vaccinated people, or the death rate, but whether we should be perpetuating the pandemic just when we've got it down.

    It's summer coming. Loads of people will be fine with drinking outside the pub. Give it a few months so we get the infection rate down to a few dozen a day, and then we can loosen up as the darker evenings approach. Remember that the scientists are predicting a new wave anyway - why would we deliberately set out to make that worse at exactly the time of year when indoor crowds are least needed?
    Loosen up as the dark evenings approach? Stuff that.

    The idea indoor crowds are not needed in the summer is madness. Yes it can be nice to drink outside in a summer's afternoon, but what happens when it starts raining? Or as it becomes night-time? People still want the option of going indoors, then going back outside when the weather allows.

    Personal choice and freedom to decide.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited March 2021



    Out of interest, how often does Nick even go into a pub? Perhaps he can tell us.

    My guess .... rather rarely.

    A policy of excluding lots of (unvaccinated) young people from pubs so that an elderly & nervous 71 year old can get a drink once a month is the most stupid policy I have heard for some time.

    If Nick doesn't want to mingle with the unvaccinated, fine. That is his choice.

    But, to suggest the entire rules are re-written to accommodate him is completely wrong.

    You're missing the point. I'm not thinking of myself, or anyone in the older generation. The point is that we've all worked through more than a year of difficulty in order to FINALLY get the pandemic down to a low level., so risking a resurgence at the very tailend of that and finding ourselves all locked down again next winter seems bonkers for everyone. The point is not vaccinated people, or the death rate, but whether we should be perpetuating the pandemic just when we've got it down.

    It's summer coming. Loads of people will be fine with drinking outside the pub. Give it a few months so we get the infection rate down to a few dozen a day, and then we can loosen up as the darker evenings approach. Remember that the scientists are predicting a new wave anyway - why would we deliberately set out to make that worse at exactly the time of year when indoor crowds are least needed?
    Loosen up as the dark evenings approach? Stuff that.

    The idea indoor crowds are not needed in the summer is madness. Yes it can be nice to drink outside in a summer's afternoon, but what happens when it starts raining? Or as it becomes night-time? People still want the option of going indoors, then going back outside when the weather allows.

    Personal choice and freedom to decide.
    If we can reopen schools without a huge surge in hospitalisations and deaths - and it looks as though we now can - there is no good reason to keep pubs shut.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    I think Johnson will ride the vaccination wave for a good while yet, but I do agree with you about Sturgeon having passed her trough - added to which, the Scottish Tories have badly overplayed their hand.
    Yes, it looks as if Sturgeon is staying, and it's hard to see what more Salmond and his Tory allies can do to damage her. Worth looking again at those odds on an SNP overall majority?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,995
    MattW said:

    alex_ said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Without meaning to denigrate your opinions unduly, but can you remind me (i genuinely am not sure) of your background? Are you commenting on this as an American, with standard American views on things like the Royal Family, albeit perhaps with a greater interest than many in UK affairs.

    Or as somebody with a strong British background who now lives in America?

    Because looking at US commentary on things like the Royal Family from afar, it seems to be that they generally attribute far more importance to minor Royals outside of the direct main line of succession than is justified by the reality. And exaggerate the importance of the soap opera type aspects that sometimes come out, particularly from those slightly detached from the main family, to its ongoing position and popularity in the UK.

    Just as traditionally (Trump undermined this) Americans have fiercely defended their Presidents as Head of state under criticism from abroad, even when they don't belong to their chosen party, so in the UK the vast majority of the population will rally around the institution of the monarchy when it is under attack.

    People in the UK aren't averse to having a joke about the Royals, but they dislike it when people do from abroad.
    Am an American, with just a smidgen of English in me, mostly Irish (hence the moniker), Scots Irish & German.

    My views are based on fairly wide historical study. AND my point is NOT to attack the Queen in particular, or the monarchy in general.

    Instead, my point is that they are VERY POORLY SERVED by their alleged servants.

    Think you are correct re: minor royals. However, note that, unlike continental monarchies, The Firm has been HIGHLY resistant to downgrading the swarm of ne'er do wells and no accounts clustered around the Windsor honeypot.

    So don't blame Americans for THAT!
    A problem has been how the royal family has grown.

    Fifty years ago it consisted of:

    Elizabeth
    Philip
    Queen Mother
    Margaret
    Charles
    Anne
    Andrew
    Edward

    Now only Margaret and the Queen Mother are no longer around but the four children have married and divorced multiple times, had children and their children have married and had children.

    With yet another one today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eXsYVwSajQ
    Why is that a problem?

    Very few actually receive public funds.

    One of the kerfuffles around H&M is that they are not having access to public money any more, which is quite right given their decision to walk away.

    Very nice fascinator in the pic.
    Well Zara likes him at least..
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Meghan is a toxic self-interested liar with an agenda and an inflated sense of victimhood

    There’s nothing the Palace could have done
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates?

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    deluded thinking yet again, the reason they are clinging on to Scotland is fact they are ,milking us, your deluded hafwittery that England subsidises Scotland says it all, keep the English dumb and happy with lies that they actually finance Scotland. What utter bollox, if you lot are so great why are you crapping it re a referendum.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Meghan is a toxic self-interested liar with an agenda and an inflated sense of victimhood

    There’s nothing the Palace could have done
    Do I get the feeling you are not altogether a fan of the Duchess of Sussex?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Meghan is a toxic self-interested liar with an agenda and an inflated sense of victimhood

    There’s nothing the Palace could have done
    You are Piers Morgan and I claim my £5.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates?

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    deluded thinking yet again, the reason they are clinging on to Scotland is fact they are ,milking us, your deluded hafwittery that England subsidises Scotland says it all, keep the English dumb and happy with lies that they actually finance Scotland. What utter bollox, if you lot are so great why are you crapping it re a referendum.
    Morning Malc, glad to see you are in such a sunny and upbeat mood this morning.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421

    The Tories led by 13% two weeks ago in the aftermath of the budget. Even if that was an outlier they were pushing to around 10%.

    My point is, I am wondering if that may have been the peak. I'm not entirely convinced they will again attain those dizzy heights in this Parliament.

    There's a Wikipedia page that records the polling where there is a handy graph with calculated averages.

    It shows the lead continuing to widen.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates.

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    Because we are an island nation, and putting borders down the middle is nuts (I accept the argument in Ireland is different). We share so much, we have been British for thousands of years (longer than we have been English Scottish or Welsh, indeed). It is madness to throw all that away in a spasm of resentment. We are arguably the most successful political union in history, shaping the world far in advance of our geographic or demographic salience

    Nationalism is riding a wave, it does not mean it is always victorious. But, all four nations have desires that need addressing. Boris really should call a Grand National Convention to honestly discuss every alternative, to unitary government to outright separatism.

    What must not happen is a vote-in-the-dark Sindyref 2 where the SNP get to say Oh indy, without actually offering concrete plans on currency, borders, army, bank, debt, EU membership, etc etc

    On the other hand, the Union has to come up with positive reasons why we are all better as a united kingdom, Project Fear 2.0 will not work when the 2nd referendum comes around (which it will, eventually, just not anytime soon)
    I'm English. I'm perfectly happy to be British too. I can see the strategic advantages to the UK. But not at any price, which, it increasingly seems, is what the English are being asked to pay, both financially and constitutionally.
    And quite honestly, it's embarrassing being in a country run like Scotland is run.
    Another deluded halfwit that thinks he pays for Scotland rather than other way round. You would have been back living in caves if you had not robbed Scotland for the last 50 years.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Sandpit said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
    Let’s hope so. But sadly I doubt it.

    Here’s the issue, and it what you can’t see in photos. The bow and stern sections are both very much beached, at the front there’s 60-70m of bank higher than the 16m draught of the ship.
    https://twitter.com/marcelvandenber/status/1374821546225762308

    They’re going to have to dredge a lot of bank out of the way, lose a lot of weight from the ship and get a lot of tugs to it. They had 7 or 8 tugs on it yesterday, and they didn’t come close to shifting it.

    It’s 400m long and 59m wide, much bigger than most people can conceive - for any journalists reading, thats four Wembley football pitches laid end to end.
    Or, 1/880,000 the size of Wales.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,451
    edited March 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Interest-free government loans should be made available to help up to a million households buy electric cars over the next two years, the shadow business secretary, Ed Miliband, is to argue.

    Focussing on the wrong thing, as ever.
    If government want to get a million electric cars on the road, what they should be investing in is electric vehicle infrastructure.
    Yes, I think battery and car prices will continue to drop. What we need is a system of chargers that are universal, cheap and easy to use in places where houses and flats are. If restricted to houses with driveways, urban residents will find it difficult to adopt.
    Which would be a bit unfortunate given it’s in urban driving that electric vehicles really score over ICE.
    Yes; that's my concern about an electric car. 10 or so months of the year it would be fine; maximum round trip, to eldest son's about 120 miles. However, every so often we go to Preston, or North Wales, and we want to visit the North East again, all of which are 200 miles plus.
    That's in normal times of course!!!!!!
    If I were to spend money on an electric car, would I be better off renting something for those odd journeys or relying on what I gather is an erratically available network of charging points.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Sturgeon does not want independence, she is happy being cock of the walk, independence means she will be out on her arse. However there will be independence despite her best efforts.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates?

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    deluded thinking yet again, the reason they are clinging on to Scotland is fact they are ,milking us, your deluded hafwittery that England subsidises Scotland says it all, keep the English dumb and happy with lies that they actually finance Scotland. What utter bollox, if you lot are so great why are you crapping it re a referendum.
    We're not. Why do you feel the need to insult the English who are on your side about Scottish independence?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates?

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    deluded thinking yet again, the reason they are clinging on to Scotland is fact they are ,milking us, your deluded hafwittery that England subsidises Scotland says it all, keep the English dumb and happy with lies that they actually finance Scotland. What utter bollox, if you lot are so great why are you crapping it re a referendum.
    Morning Malc, glad to see you are in such a sunny and upbeat mood this morning.
    Top of the morning ydoethur, nothing to beat getting up and reading pure bollox from a few halfwits before my first cup of tea.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Seeing as how it appears Queen Elizabeth's top personal governmental priority, has been establishing the monarch as focus and rally-point for the Commonwealth, this survey can NOT be good news for the Palace.

    Methinks the way HM's no-brains twit-trust has mishandled the Meghan situation from the get-go, is seriously undermining the Queen's life work.
    Meghan is a toxic self-interested liar with an agenda and an inflated sense of victimhood

    There’s nothing the Palace could have done
    You are Piers Morgan and I claim my £5.
    Unbelievably , I agree with Charles.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
    Let’s hope so. But sadly I doubt it.

    Here’s the issue, and it what you can’t see in photos. The bow and stern sections are both very much beached, at the front there’s 60-70m of bank higher than the 16m draught of the ship.
    https://twitter.com/marcelvandenber/status/1374821546225762308

    They’re going to have to dredge a lot of bank out of the way, lose a lot of weight from the ship and get a lot of tugs to it. They had 7 or 8 tugs on it yesterday, and they didn’t come close to shifting it.

    It’s 400m long and 59m wide, much bigger than most people can conceive - for any journalists reading, thats four Wembley football pitches laid end to end.
    Or, 1/880,000 the size of Wales.
    make a good bet - how many days till traffic restored to normal. I'm thinking 5 days minimum
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Because he’s been accused but not proven guilty
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    Foxy said:

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    I think Johnson will ride the vaccination wave for a good while yet, but I do agree with you about Sturgeon having passed her trough - added to which, the Scottish Tories have badly overplayed their hand.
    Yes, it looks as if Sturgeon is staying, and it's hard to see what more Salmond and his Tory allies can do to damage her. Worth looking again at those odds on an SNP overall majority?
    Be interesting to see if Evans goes tamely or makes Sturgeon pay for her to be dragged through the courts. Also if the leaker is nabbed by police it will not be good for Sturgeon given who it is.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The updated AZ data (old/new)

    Prevents infection
    Overall: 79/76
    65+ 80/85
    Serious illness: 100/100
    Death: 100/100

    Which rather makes one wonder why the US authorities got so upset?
This discussion has been closed.