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With 6 weeks to go till the Scottish election support for independence edges upwards – politicalbett

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  • Options
    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Because he’s been accused but not proven guilty
    Unlike Meghan who is neither but gets your undying hatred, which rather backs up her own claims.
    I resent the implied allegation that you are making.

    Please withdraw and apologise, or I shall think the less of you.

    Meghan is a third tier actress who saw an opportunity to make the next step in her career. She has manipulated her husband, feeding his genuine issues and offering a false way out. She has succeeded in her personal objectives heedless of the cost to others.
    Charles I have said this before - either you know what is happening with the Sussexes in which case STFU or you don't, in which case STFU.
    I am with Charles for once , that sounds just about right to me , other than missing out that Harry is a divvy
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    Charles said:

    The difference is - I believe - that every adult in Israel has been offered a vaccine.

    You simply can’t cleave the population in 2 when so many haven’t had the offer of a vaccine

    That, meanwhile, is spot on.

    Although AIUI in Israel those not having the vaccine are the extreme religious groups and hence I'm sure there will be calls that this is discriminatory.

    But otherwise you're absolutely right - unless everyone has been offered a vaccine then no distinction should be made.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Charles said:

    The difference is - I believe - that every adult in Israel has been offered a vaccine.

    You simply can’t cleave the population in 2 when so many haven’t had the offer of a vaccine
    An interesting point was raised by a local coffee shop owner, on the local chat groups.

    She has an employee, who has been shielding, but wants to get back to work. She is both immune compromised and not able to have the vaccination.

    The shop owner wants her back, but what about the risk to the employee? Hence the discussion turned to vaccine passports.
    I'm sorry for the employee, but there comes a point where we just have to live with the virus and treat it like the common cold and flu. It's never going to be 'safe' but the risks become another part of background risk.
  • Options
    CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421
    edited March 2021
    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    I agree that the taxation system should be determined as much as possible by those local. It seems the award of a block grant for the competences of the scottish parliament robs them of accountability. The same thing happens in local government. Councillors should be accountable for their spend in their area from the revenue they mostly raise, same for MSPs.

    The argument for a top up grant is reasonable, thats the union dividend i guess..
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Because he’s been accused but not proven guilty
    Unlike Meghan who is neither but gets your undying hatred, which rather backs up her own claims.
    I resent the implied allegation that you are making.

    Please withdraw and apologise, or I shall think the less of you.

    Meghan is a third tier actress who saw an opportunity to make the next step in her career. She has manipulated her husband, feeding his genuine issues and offering a false way out. She has succeeded in her personal objectives heedless of the cost to others.
    Charles I have said this before - either you know what is happening with the Sussexes in which case STFU or you don't, in which case STFU.
    I am with Charles for once , that sounds just about right to me , other than missing out that Harry is a divvy
    Not my point.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    Wales doesn't want indy, they want attention

    As for Scotland, Canada coped with Quebec, and Canada remains united. Hold your nerve, under fire, Sergeant Rook
    A lot of people probably said the same kind of thing about Scotland two decades ago. Look where they are now.

    The central issue I have with the maintenance of the Union is this: nearly half of Scotland voted to jack it in a few years back, and a substantial fraction of them loathe us. Why are we therefore expected to spend enormous amounts of time and enormous sums of money holding it all together. Why not just let them go?

    I'm by no means certain that Wales will go the same way, but it has to be counted as a decent chance. If Labour doesn't think there's a lot of mileage to be made out of nationalism then why does it select openly pro-independence candidates?

    If the UK disintegrates then we get England back as an irreducible core. We can then have a quiet life. Why shouldn't we?
    deluded thinking yet again, the reason they are clinging on to Scotland is fact they are ,milking us, your deluded hafwittery that England subsidises Scotland says it all, keep the English dumb and happy with lies that they actually finance Scotland. What utter bollox, if you lot are so great why are you crapping it re a referendum.
    We're not. Why do you feel the need to insult the English who are on your side about Scottish independence?
    I was not insulting you, I was pointing out to the idiot who has no clue and seriously imagines he funds Scotland. I appreciate some people know what democracy is and would support people being able to have a vote like normal people do.
    Indeed but Black Rook was making the same point and said about Scotland "Why not just let them go?"

    I'd think you should be welcoming the English who are happy to let Scotland go, not insulting them.
    Well anyone trying to pretend that England finances Scotland needs insulting. We have been milked for years and in last few years lots of money has been borrowed and "supposedly" spent on Scotland, England does not and never has financed Scotland. I have no time for idiots who think they are paying for us as if they are kind hearted benefactors rather than dumb idiots.
    “Has never financed Scotland”

    Err. Darien...?
    Err , England did not finance Darien , it wrecked it with blockades and made money out of it??????????????????
    It’s not my period, but my recollection was that the failure of Darien bankrupted Scotland the the UK took on the Scottish national debt?
    Well you have not read your history , when the union started Scotland was in surplus, England was in debt and only the 12 rich barstewards made money out of it, England welched on the payments it was supposed to make to Scotland and has milked it ever since.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,668

    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
    Doesn't it take two to fight?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,984

    Morning all.

    Trip to the hospital today to have what is probably a hernia looked at.

    Lucky me! 🍀

    Back in the day reducing hernias and fitting trusses was part of pharmacists NHS contractual duties.

    Could be quite unpleasant. I still recall the patient who stank like an unwashed badger.
    My colleague had a problem way back with a patient of uncertain sex (so not knowing which of the pharmacy team was suitable to provide the fitting...)
    I fitted one on a woman once. Took my then student, female, as chaperone and as a learning exercise.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,668
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    I am not going to fall out with you Malc

    We do not agree on this but we both love Scotland
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
    I think you will find that RAF Lossiemouth is a huge economic benefit to North East Scotland
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,668
    Another reason for slow vaccine roll out:

    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1375010513730551809?s=20
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2021

    Roger said:

    I imagine the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms. It would be good for both of them so that poll looks pretty good and it shows that Scottish voters are asking the important questions.

    As for the approval ratings in the header Johnson would kill for numbers like that. I don't find them very surprising. She's about the only politician in the UK with universal respect at the moment. Watching her batting away lesser figures reminds me of Merkel in her pomp.
    Universal respect- really
    Of all the images coming from Scotland recently the most memorable were Murdoch Fraser and Jackie Baillie trying to justify calling for Sturgeon's resignation before the facts were known. I've not seen politicians looking more diminished since Derek Hatton's humiliation at the Labour Party Conference.

    There's a reason why you don't call for someone's resignation before your ground is solid. You look ridiculous and you empower the person you are attacking. They should have read Machiavelli's The Prince.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    I think Johnson will ride the vaccination wave for a good while yet, but I do agree with you about Sturgeon having passed her trough - added to which, the Scottish Tories have badly overplayed their hand.
    Yes, it looks as if Sturgeon is staying, and it's hard to see what more Salmond and his Tory allies can do to damage her. Worth looking again at those odds on an SNP overall majority?
    Sturgeon is staying and the ScotCons have damaged themselves. The leaks from their enquiry - whilst complaining about good governance - look bad. Their report looks out of step following Nippy's all clear from the lawyer. All feels somewhat opportunists, and unless you can take out the target it always backfires.

    Tomorrow I'm taking delivery of my first bags of LibDem leaflets to deliver, so I am not ramping the SNP for personal reasons. But I do think they're heading for a small majority with all that such a result means for the stability of the union.

    Until English Tories accept that their bludgeoning style of government is explicitly doing damage, this won't get any better. The ludicrous faff over flags, culminating in yesterday's command to fly the Union flag on all UK buildings at all times just winds people up.
    Question that "Their Report", "Their Enquiry".

    How does that work? Set up by the Scottish Gov with a Gov party chair and a Gov supporting majority, and crippling terms of reference and practise.

    What have I missed?
    Nearly all the evidence withheld or not given till very last days or redacted , scope restricted , etc.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334
    eek said:



    ZHC are not a way of getting round the minimum wage - it's rather hard to get around that.

    The approach that is used by Uber and elsewhere is to pay per minute and only include the time you are actually working / deliverying. In their eyes standing round waiting for an order to be placed doesn't count.

    Yes, this resembles the old dock worker issue - dockers were asked to turn up for possible work every day, and were only paid if there actually was any.

    I use ZHC all the time for freelance translation, in the sense that I take jobs when I've got time and don't take them when I haven't. Agencies don't punish me for saying I'm too busy to take a specific job, and I don't hold it against them that they don't always have work. It wouldn't occur to me to ask the agencies to pay me a regular salary for that.

    But if they demanded that I be available to them any time they wanted it - which is the position of the sleazier gig employers - it'd be intolerable. If they added that by the way, they weren't going to provide any of the usual benefits of employment - holidays, sick pay, etc. - then they could fuck right off.

    But I've got a day job and I can say that without wincing. People on the margins can't - they have to take what they can get. That's why Labour feels it requires protective legislation: either (a) you have someone available to you throughout a defined period (5 days a week or whatever) and pay and employ them accordingly or (b) you have a casual relationship and they are free to do other stuff when you don't need them, without reducing their chance of work with you when they're available.
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    AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    Isn't it QMV? If so and they are out-voted then what happens? Do they really toe the line and stuff their pharma industries?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,530

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    The difference is - I believe - that every adult in Israel has been offered a vaccine.

    You simply can’t cleave the population in 2 when so many haven’t had the offer of a vaccine
    An interesting point was raised by a local coffee shop owner, on the local chat groups.

    She has an employee, who has been shielding, but wants to get back to work. She is both immune compromised and not able to have the vaccination.

    The shop owner wants her back, but what about the risk to the employee? Hence the discussion turned to vaccine passports.
    Sad to say I don’t think you can design the world around a small group of people in that employee’s position. Once you have a mass of vaccinated individuals then you open up.

    Clearly the employer can make a commercial decision but it shouldn’t be mandated by law
    But should she be able to demand proof of vaccination?

    To complicate that, nearby are areas of low vaccination due to cultural issues (as discussed here)
    Is this not what eg Valneva are about - 'deactivated' vaccine?

    That does not solve the interim several months, though.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited March 2021

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    One big - and unresolved - problem for The Firm, is Andrew.

    Whose name was NOT mentioned (I think) in The Interview. BUT his malign stench hangs over this whole sorry business.

    The difference between the Palace's approach to his Foul Lowness is is MARKED contrast, to their treatment of his nephew & niece-in-law.

    For example, WHY is Andrew still HRH? When other royals have been stripped of THEIR titles for far, far less.

    Because he’s been accused but not proven guilty
    Unlike Meghan who is neither but gets your undying hatred, which rather backs up her own claims.
    I resent the implied allegation that you are making.

    Please withdraw and apologise, or I shall think the less of you.

    Meghan is a third tier actress who saw an opportunity to make the next step in her career. She has manipulated her husband, feeding his genuine issues and offering a false way out. She has succeeded in her personal objectives heedless of the cost to others.
    I shall not withdraw. The way you speak about her is nasty, malicious and suggesting that a woman is "manipulating her husband" . . . you seem to represent exactly what she was complaining about.

    It is remarkable to see you talking about a woman manipulating her husband as if she is some sort of demonic succubus.

    If that makes you think less of me then so be it. I think less of you for the way you are speaking about women.
    It is very disappointing. @Charles is usually the first to champion high moral standards.

    If he knows the Sussexes then he is behaving appallingly by disclosing their situation. If he doesn't know them then his comments are meaningless. And in either case as you say the comments are malicious and petty.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,119
    Sandpit said:

    AlistairM said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big ship stuck update: still very stuck.

    Dutch marine salvage team are on the way, but experts reckon it could be at least days if not weeks.

    If you didn’t fill your tank with petrol yesterday, today’s probably a good time to do it.

    https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1374942502684405761

    Let's hope they have taken the Scotty approach to engineering timescale estimates so that they can look like miracle workers.
    ...and justify their now massive fees!
    Salvage teams when there’s a ship blocking the Suez Canal, are a bit like vaccine manufacturing plants during a global pandemic.

    No matter what the price, it’s infinitely cheaper than any possible alternative.
    (There will be lots of marine salvage guys with no mortgages by next month!)
    Greed is good? Greed gets the job done?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I imagine the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms. It would be good for both of them so that poll looks pretty good and it shows that Scottish voters are asking the important questions.

    As for the approval ratings in the header Johnson would kill for numbers like that. I don't find them very surprising. She's about the only politician in the UK with universal respect at the moment. Watching her batting away lesser figures reminds me of Merkel in her pomp.
    Universal respect- really
    Of all the images coming from Scotland recently the most memorable were Murdoch Fraser and Jackie Baillie trying to justify calling for Sturgeon's resignation before the facts were known. I've not seen politicians looking more diminished since Derek Hatton's humiliation at the Labour Party Conference.

    There's a reason why you don't call for someone's resignation before your ground is solid. You look ridiculous and you empower the person you are attacking. They should have read Machiavelli's The Prince.
    Roger, research the names before posting imaginary ones.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,379

    eek said:



    ZHC are not a way of getting round the minimum wage - it's rather hard to get around that.

    The approach that is used by Uber and elsewhere is to pay per minute and only include the time you are actually working / deliverying. In their eyes standing round waiting for an order to be placed doesn't count.

    Yes, this resembles the old dock worker issue - dockers were asked to turn up for possible work every day, and were only paid if there actually was any.

    I use ZHC all the time for freelance translation, in the sense that I take jobs when I've got time and don't take them when I haven't. Agencies don't punish me for saying I'm too busy to take a specific job, and I don't hold it against them that they don't always have work. It wouldn't occur to me to ask the agencies to pay me a regular salary for that.

    But if they demanded that I be available to them any time they wanted it - which is the position of the sleazier gig employers - it'd be intolerable. If they added that by the way, they weren't going to provide any of the usual benefits of employment - holidays, sick pay, etc. - then they could fuck right off.

    But I've got a day job and I can say that without wincing. People on the margins can't - they have to take what they can get. That's why Labour feels it requires protective legislation: either (a) you have someone available to you throughout a defined period (5 days a week or whatever) and pay and employ them accordingly or (b) you have a casual relationship and they are free to do other stuff when you don't need them, without reducing their chance of work with you when they're available.
    The problem is when you do what California did and try and ban gig work. Which screwed up the software contractors etc. And probably hasn't done much for the Uber drivers...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,999
    edited March 2021

    HYUFD said:

    I expect the SNP to gain a small majority but not convinced about the mandate for indyref2

    I think it is too close to call

    The fun and games are just getting started.

    What do you think's going to happen if the Welsh polls are anything close to accurate and Plaid ends up controlling the balance of power again - especially now that Labour has started actively promoting pro-independence candidates?

    Yep, we're going to have both the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments demanding votes on secession, loudly and continuously, at the same time. For five interminable years. Joy.
    You have a strange idea Wales has the same direction as Scotland

    Please take it from me Welsh Independence is not on the agenda anytime soon and not with the help of labour either
    Do you think that Welsh independence would get a boost IF Scotland left the Union?
    Yes, big time.
    Depends - it would be a bumpy ole ride. Wales may look on and think “nah”
    If you are suggesting Wales is an economic desert you would be right.

    However sometimes the heart rules the head, and if Scotland jumps ship, don't be surprised that Wales MIGHT follow.
    I’d like to think folk would put a bit of thought into why their country was an economic desert..
    Current thinking is Labour and the EU, but Scottish Independence would focus Welsh minds (like in Scotland} on their serfdom, and a break from their English feudal landlords is thus almost inevitable.
    Scotland at least can leave the UK for the EU which it voted to remain in, Wales voted Leave so if it left the UK too it would be completely alone
    There is nothing to stop minds being changed.
    52.53% of Welsh voters voted Leave, almost identical to the 53.38% of English voters who voted Leave.

    Far more Welsh voters back Brexit than back independence from the UK, if Wales decides to rejoin the EU it will almost certainly only be because England has also decided to rejoin the EU
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
    I think you will find that RAF Lossiemouth is a huge economic benefit to North East Scotland
    Your point is , if they had Scottish army and whatever air force they needed there, would it suddenly not be a huge economic benefit.
  • Options
    MangoMango Posts: 1,013
    malcolmg said:



    I was not insulting you, I was pointing out to the idiot who has no clue and seriously imagines he funds Scotland. I appreciate some people know what democracy is and would support people being able to have a vote like normal people do.

    Of course. You govern with the consent of the governed. Anything else is imperialism.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,119
    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    eek said:



    ZHC are not a way of getting round the minimum wage - it's rather hard to get around that.

    The approach that is used by Uber and elsewhere is to pay per minute and only include the time you are actually working / deliverying. In their eyes standing round waiting for an order to be placed doesn't count.

    Yes, this resembles the old dock worker issue - dockers were asked to turn up for possible work every day, and were only paid if there actually was any.

    I use ZHC all the time for freelance translation, in the sense that I take jobs when I've got time and don't take them when I haven't. Agencies don't punish me for saying I'm too busy to take a specific job, and I don't hold it against them that they don't always have work. It wouldn't occur to me to ask the agencies to pay me a regular salary for that.

    But if they demanded that I be available to them any time they wanted it - which is the position of the sleazier gig employers - it'd be intolerable. If they added that by the way, they weren't going to provide any of the usual benefits of employment - holidays, sick pay, etc. - then they could fuck right off.

    But I've got a day job and I can say that without wincing. People on the margins can't - they have to take what they can get. That's why Labour feels it requires protective legislation: either (a) you have someone available to you throughout a defined period (5 days a week or whatever) and pay and employ them accordingly or (b) you have a casual relationship and they are free to do other stuff when you don't need them, without reducing their chance of work with you when they're available.
    The problem is when you do what California did and try and ban gig work. Which screwed up the software contractors etc. And probably hasn't done much for the Uber drivers...
    But that was California and the fact that stupid thought out plans can be made law via a referendum.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,534
    edited March 2021

    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
    Labour will win when it realises again that politics is a retail as well as an in house trade business, that most people have no interest in political arguments, most people are by today's standards neither rich nor poor, that you don't vote for people who call you and your friends 'scum', that they like politicians who make them feel good and can laugh, that competence matters, that we have left the EU for respect worthy reasons, that the public sector is a good servant and bad master and that those outside it think those inside it have a pretty cushy deal, and that they need several million people who have recently voted Tory to pay attention to Labour and actually change their minds and are wanting reasons to do so.


  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
    I think you will find that RAF Lossiemouth is a huge economic benefit to North East Scotland
    Your point is , if they had Scottish army and whatever air force they needed there, would it suddenly not be a huge economic benefit.
    Scotland will not have the army or air force that would compensate the RAF leaving Lossiemouth
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826



    Loosen up as the dark evenings approach? Stuff that.

    The idea indoor crowds are not needed in the summer is madness. Yes it can be nice to drink outside in a summer's afternoon, but what happens when it starts raining? Or as it becomes night-time? People still want the option of going indoors, then going back outside when the weather allows.

    Personal choice and freedom to decide.

    A public health emergency may override the freedom to make damaging personal decisions. We've been here before last Christmas when it had much more force - "Families want to be together - we can't stop grandparents from seeing their families". Johnson encouraged that until it was clear that it would spark a resurgence of the pandemic, when he (rightly) performed a screeching U-turn. You're seriously saying that a major public health emergency that we've all been battling for a year should be compromised because it's nice to be able to crowd indoors even in the summer - after all, it might rain?

    To some extent, the issue has been compounded by the focus on hospitalisation and death, to the point that it's assumed that if you don't die then the disease is no big deal - "like flu", as Donald Trump used to say. That's far from the case for many (young) people. The problem is not with the vaccinated elderly. It's with younger people who have not yet been vaccinated and are still exposed.

    To be fair to the Government and society generally, we've collectively come a long way in reducing the scale of the pandemic. We really do not want to go back to major crisis and lockdown in the autumn, just because you might like to have a drink in a crowd on a rainy evening in June. B
    Christmas was before the vaccine rollout.

    Taking away liberties was a temporary thing to get through to the vaccine rollout and prevent NHS collapse. That's been done now. NHS didn't collapse and the vulnerable have been vaccinated.

    Time to end lockdown now.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Charles said:

    The difference is - I believe - that every adult in Israel has been offered a vaccine.

    You simply can’t cleave the population in 2 when so many haven’t had the offer of a vaccine
    I agree.

    Strikes me as another example of lack of proportionate thinking.

    But interesting to see there is a real world example. Although someone has pointed out that this only applies if you try and sit inside the bar.
    The weather in Tel Aviv will help
  • Options
    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,432

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
    The alleged AZN viewpoint is a bit arse about face though, for this vaccine. Their choice was this vaccine on a no profit basis, but with the investment opportunities in facilities and research or no vaccine. They didn't have a choice between this vaccine at no profit and this (or any other Covid vaccine, as far as I know) at profit.

    Re Oxford, maybe. They could have potentially cut a deal with another pharma company allowing profits but a strict cost-plus agreement, particularly for the UK (as originators) and developing countries. Still likely cheaper than competitors and maybe better production/PR. However, AZN although with limited vaccine track record are a big player and the mistakes that have been made could also have been made by e.g. GSK. Using a share of profits to fund increased vaccine research capacity at Oxford would have been smart.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,119
    algarkirk said:

    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
    Labour will win when it realises again that politics is a retail as well as an in house trade business, that most people have no interest in political arguments, most people are by today's standards neither rich nor poor, that you don't vote for people who call you and your friends 'scum', that they like politicians who make them feel good and can laugh, that competence matters, that we have left the EU for respect worthy reasons, that the public sector is a good servant and bad master and that those outside it think those inside it have a pretty cushy deal, and that they need several million people who have recently voted Tory to pay attention to Labour and actually change their minds and are wanting reasons to do so.
    So a week on Wednesday then?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,119
    algarkirk said:

    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
    Labour will win when it realises again that politics is a retail as well as an in house trade business, that most people have no interest in political arguments, most people are by today's standards neither rich nor poor, that you don't vote for people who call you and your friends 'scum', that they like politicians who make them feel good and can laugh, that competence matters, that we have left the EU for respect worthy reasons, that the public sector is a good servant and bad master and that those outside it think those inside it have a pretty cushy deal, and that they need several million people who have recently voted Tory to pay attention to Labour and actually change their minds and are wanting reasons to do so.
    It is often said that what Labour needs to succeed is a new electorate.

    When all it REALLY needs is a new membership...
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,530
    Selebian said:

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
    The alleged AZN viewpoint is a bit arse about face though, for this vaccine. Their choice was this vaccine on a no profit basis, but with the investment opportunities in facilities and research or no vaccine. They didn't have a choice between this vaccine at no profit and this (or any other Covid vaccine, as far as I know) at profit.

    Re Oxford, maybe. They could have potentially cut a deal with another pharma company allowing profits but a strict cost-plus agreement, particularly for the UK (as originators) and developing countries. Still likely cheaper than competitors and maybe better production/PR. However, AZN although with limited vaccine track record are a big player and the mistakes that have been made could also have been made by e.g. GSK. Using a share of profits to fund increased vaccine research capacity at Oxford would have been smart.
    Oxford get a royalty...
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
    I think you will find that RAF Lossiemouth is a huge economic benefit to North East Scotland
    Your point is , if they had Scottish army and whatever air force they needed there, would it suddenly not be a huge economic benefit.
    Scotland will not have the army or air force that would compensate the RAF leaving Lossiemouth
    I think we will need at least 2000 G, so easily cover Lossiemouth and NATO will still want to use it big time.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735



    Loosen up as the dark evenings approach? Stuff that.

    The idea indoor crowds are not needed in the summer is madness. Yes it can be nice to drink outside in a summer's afternoon, but what happens when it starts raining? Or as it becomes night-time? People still want the option of going indoors, then going back outside when the weather allows.

    Personal choice and freedom to decide.

    A public health emergency may override the freedom to make damaging personal decisions. We've been here before last Christmas when it had much more force - "Families want to be together - we can't stop grandparents from seeing their families". Johnson encouraged that until it was clear that it would spark a resurgence of the pandemic, when he (rightly) performed a screeching U-turn. You're seriously saying that a major public health emergency that we've all been battling for a year should be compromised because it's nice to be able to crowd indoors even in the summer - after all, it might rain?

    To some extent, the issue has been compounded by the focus on hospitalisation and death, to the point that it's assumed that if you don't die then the disease is no big deal - "like flu", as Donald Trump used to say. That's far from the case for many (young) people. The problem is not with the vaccinated elderly. It's with younger people who have not yet been vaccinated and are still exposed.

    To be fair to the Government and society generally, we've collectively come a long way in reducing the scale of the pandemic. We really do not want to go back to major crisis and lockdown in the autumn, just because you might like to have a drink in a crowd on a rainy evening in June. B
    You are being selfish and offensive on this and it is very much unlike you!

    If it was all age groups for themselves then the right approach for young people from the start would indeed have been to follow the Brazil/parts of US approach with people taking their own risk based assessments and the young largely doing what they want, continuing to progress their careers, relationships and social life.

    They have put those things largely on hold at significant personal cost, because they believe in society and the greater good in protecting the more vulnerable despite the govts of all colours continually focusing on older cohorts who vote more often and more reliably.

    If you (and the powers that be) really want to now say we are no longer in it together, people under 50 are high risk and need to be treated like lepers, please just understand how divisive this will be, not just this year, but in further deepening the divide between our age cohorts.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I imagine the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms. It would be good for both of them so that poll looks pretty good and it shows that Scottish voters are asking the important questions.

    As for the approval ratings in the header Johnson would kill for numbers like that. I don't find them very surprising. She's about the only politician in the UK with universal respect at the moment. Watching her batting away lesser figures reminds me of Merkel in her pomp.
    Universal respect- really
    Of all the images coming from Scotland recently the most memorable were Murdoch Fraser and Jackie Baillie trying to justify calling for Sturgeon's resignation before the facts were known. I've not seen politicians looking more diminished since Derek Hatton's humiliation at the Labour Party Conference.

    There's a reason why you don't call for someone's resignation before your ground is solid. You look ridiculous and you empower the person you are attacking. They should have read Machiavelli's The Prince.
    Roger, research the names before posting imaginary ones.
    I can't even remember Boris Johnson's name anymore!
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,442
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
    I think you will find that RAF Lossiemouth is a huge economic benefit to North East Scotland
    Your point is , if they had Scottish army and whatever air force they needed there, would it suddenly not be a huge economic benefit.
    Scotland will not have the army or air force that would compensate the RAF leaving Lossiemouth
    I think we will need at least 2000 G, so easily cover Lossiemouth and NATO will still want to use it big time.
    The Typhoon and Poseidon squadrons will relocate south. 39 Engineer will leave Kinloss. Their departure would devastate the Moray economy.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
    The alleged AZN viewpoint is a bit arse about face though, for this vaccine. Their choice was this vaccine on a no profit basis, but with the investment opportunities in facilities and research or no vaccine. They didn't have a choice between this vaccine at no profit and this (or any other Covid vaccine, as far as I know) at profit.

    Re Oxford, maybe. They could have potentially cut a deal with another pharma company allowing profits but a strict cost-plus agreement, particularly for the UK (as originators) and developing countries. Still likely cheaper than competitors and maybe better production/PR. However, AZN although with limited vaccine track record are a big player and the mistakes that have been made could also have been made by e.g. GSK. Using a share of profits to fund increased vaccine research capacity at Oxford would have been smart.
    Oxford get a royalty...
    Anything like the royalty BioNTech are making?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,592
    Selebian said:

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
    The alleged AZN viewpoint is a bit arse about face though, for this vaccine. Their choice was this vaccine on a no profit basis, but with the investment opportunities in facilities and research or no vaccine. They didn't have a choice between this vaccine at no profit and this (or any other Covid vaccine, as far as I know) at profit.

    Re Oxford, maybe. They could have potentially cut a deal with another pharma company allowing profits but a strict cost-plus agreement, particularly for the UK (as originators) and developing countries. Still likely cheaper than competitors and maybe better production/PR. However, AZN although with limited vaccine track record are a big player and the mistakes that have been made could also have been made by e.g. GSK. Using a share of profits to fund increased vaccine research capacity at Oxford would have been smart.
    GSK weren't, I think, an option for this deal, as they had their own commercial vaccine program. Which at the time looked quite promising.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
    Mark , I am no expert and don't know enough to pontificate. Given where we are now I am more concerned about the crooks and dumb fools running Scotland into the ground rather than some distant future EU discussion. There will be no independence in near future with these wasters, they are fat and happy , full of careerists counting their gold plated pensions and thinking they have won the lottery by going from useless nobodies to voting fodder on eye watering money. They are not keen on ending the current status quo , where they whine a lot , fill their pockets and have little responsibility other than to blame the other set of wasters at Westminster.
    Some of them have been there near 20 years , earned over £1M and have never said a word or even been known. The list MP's are just party arseholes that won the lottery, they did not even need to be voted in.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,334



    The problem is when you do what California did and try and ban gig work. Which screwed up the software contractors etc. And probably hasn't done much for the Uber drivers...

    I don't know the CA position but that sounds bad - an example of creating a new problem by applying over-rigid rules to solve an old one. But that's not Labour's position - it's what I described below, requiring companies to decide if they required continuous availability (in which case employment rules apply) or not (in which case they don't).

    There is an echo of this in the benefit rules. You are not allowed when claiming benefit to take a course improving your job skills (unless specifically directed to do so), since it makes you "unavailable for work". Here again, some flexibility is needed - clearly you can't claim benefit while pursuing some irrelevant course that occupies you full-time, but when I was claiming benefit I remember a chef at the next desk being forbidden to take a 2-month course in Indian cooking because he'd (correctly) spotted a shortage of chefs skilled in that. The Job Centre adviser said he'd lose benefit immediately and should concentrate on getting a job with the basic skills he already had.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    algarkirk said:

    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
    Labour will win when it realises again that politics is a retail as well as an in house trade business, that most people have no interest in political arguments, most people are by today's standards neither rich nor poor, that you don't vote for people who call you and your friends 'scum', that they like politicians who make them feel good and can laugh, that competence matters, that we have left the EU for respect worthy reasons, that the public sector is a good servant and bad master and that those outside it think those inside it have a pretty cushy deal, and that they need several million people who have recently voted Tory to pay attention to Labour and actually change their minds and are wanting reasons to do so.
    It is often said that what Labour needs to succeed is a new electorate.

    When all it REALLY needs is a new membership...
    A backbone , principles and some policies would help them a bit.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,442

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
    Those EU member states not keen on seeing the UK break up, notably Spain but there are others, will ensure that an independent Scotland receives no favours. Even the paper written by the SNP's Andrew Wilson forecasts that it would take between 5-10 years for Scotland to have readjusted enough to go into the EU. That's up to ten years outside both the UK and EU. A truly grim forecast.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,442
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
    Mark , I am no expert and don't know enough to pontificate. Given where we are now I am more concerned about the crooks and dumb fools running Scotland into the ground rather than some distant future EU discussion. There will be no independence in near future with these wasters, they are fat and happy , full of careerists counting their gold plated pensions and thinking they have won the lottery by going from useless nobodies to voting fodder on eye watering money. They are not keen on ending the current status quo , where they whine a lot , fill their pockets and have little responsibility other than to blame the other set of wasters at Westminster.
    Some of them have been there near 20 years , earned over £1M and have never said a word or even been known. The list MP's are just party arseholes that won the lottery, they did not even need to be voted in.
    Lot of truth in that TBH. However I do think Malcy underestimates Nicola, sad to say. Certainly Eck did.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited March 2021
    317,000 second vaccinations per day required to keep pace with the twelve week requirement between now and the end of April.
    I think we'll be below that for a while but the 15 - 30th April could solely see second doses.

    Look away now if you're in your 40s, the required second dose rate goes UP in May
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,997
    malcolmg said:



    I think we will need at least 2000 G, so easily cover Lossiemouth and NATO will still want to use it big time.

    I think the Scottish Defence Force will look a lot like the armed forces of the 26 counties with 2 brigades, 3-4 OPVs and one squadron each of MARPAT and transport. So maybe 10,000 + 2,000 reserves.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,592

    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
    The alleged AZN viewpoint is a bit arse about face though, for this vaccine. Their choice was this vaccine on a no profit basis, but with the investment opportunities in facilities and research or no vaccine. They didn't have a choice between this vaccine at no profit and this (or any other Covid vaccine, as far as I know) at profit.

    Re Oxford, maybe. They could have potentially cut a deal with another pharma company allowing profits but a strict cost-plus agreement, particularly for the UK (as originators) and developing countries. Still likely cheaper than competitors and maybe better production/PR. However, AZN although with limited vaccine track record are a big player and the mistakes that have been made could also have been made by e.g. GSK. Using a share of profits to fund increased vaccine research capacity at Oxford would have been smart.
    Oxford get a royalty...
    Anything like the royalty BioNTech are making?
    The merest fraction, I think.
    The total revenue from AZN's vaccine, even if 2bn plus doses are shipped, will be considerably less than the net profit on the Pfizer vaccine.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,119
    They only happened as fast as they did because other countries weren't so tight with their money to get them developed. If we all had the EU's mindset, we'd still be waiting the results of trials - at best.

    Guys, nothing you can say on vaccines makes your actions look any better to history.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    That's fair - you just have to forget this part of your post then

    "If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country."

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    Foxy said:

    On topic I have a sense, just a sense, that we may have passed peak Boris and trough Nicola.

    Nicola appears to have weathered the storm and, by heck, she's a survivor isn't she? A very very tough politician. Formidable.

    Boris, meanwhile, seems to me to have lost some of his vaccine lustre. Why so? Well, there's no point vaccinating the population only to move the goalposts on easing of restrictions. We were promised a green light back to normality but now, unlike Israel, all we're getting is scaremongering and the early signs (again) of promises to be reneged on. Foreign holidays is one. Vaccine passports to have a pub pint another.

    The row with the EU and vaccine supply drop has also turned ugly. It's all very well crowing about our own stunning success story but this is suddenly looking a little less clever. To be fair to Boris, he has been measured in his dealings with the EU over this. But it's still a mess, with our semi-British AZN project shining a little less brightly. A lot of this is Europe's fault but not all.

    Then there's the NHS pay offer. Whatever the sound reasons, a 1% rise looked and sounded like a kick in the teeth. And, lo and behold, NHS Scotland have just been offered 4%.

    I sense peak Boris has passed. And so has trough Nicola.

    Now is the time to flutter on the SNP ... and independence.

    Peak Boris will be when the benefit of the vaccine programme delivers on the promise of a normal life. When people are back in pubs and restaurants with friends and family - and no worries that we will have to go through a shitty year like 2020-1 again.

    .
    I think that misses my point. Your utopian vision may never happen. That's why I'm suggesting we may have just passed peak Boris.
    I think Johnson will ride the vaccination wave for a good while yet, but I do agree with you about Sturgeon having passed her trough - added to which, the Scottish Tories have badly overplayed their hand.
    Yes, it looks as if Sturgeon is staying, and it's hard to see what more Salmond and his Tory allies can do to damage her. Worth looking again at those odds on an SNP overall majority?
    Sturgeon is staying and the ScotCons have damaged themselves. The leaks from their enquiry - whilst complaining about good governance - look bad. Their report looks out of step following Nippy's all clear from the lawyer. All feels somewhat opportunists, and unless you can take out the target it always backfires.

    Tomorrow I'm taking delivery of my first bags of LibDem leaflets to deliver, so I am not ramping the SNP for personal reasons. But I do think they're heading for a small majority with all that such a result means for the stability of the union.

    Until English Tories accept that their bludgeoning style of government is explicitly doing damage, this won't get any better. The ludicrous faff over flags, culminating in yesterday's command to fly the Union flag on all UK buildings at all times just winds people up.
    Aren't the Scottish Government commanding the Saltire to fly at all times?

    Why should one be OK but the other just winds people up?
    The whole issue stems from Nicole wanting the EU flag to fly at all times as well even though we aren't in the EU.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    That's fair - you just have to forget this part of your post then

    "If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country."

    Two corrections required here. One, no member state of the UK is a "colony". Each are, and always have been, independent sovereign nations, and they will continue to be such. They pool elements of sovereignty in the same way that we continue to do so to be part of NATO.

    Second, Scotland is not a "colony" of UK, or more especially England. Neither is Wales or NI. As I have said many times before, Scots have historically been far more active in being colonisers per head of population than the English during the British Empire. Being a "colony" of England is just another bit of Scottish Nasty Party fake history to stir up more racist hatred of "the English". I am sure it works on the gullible, but it is bullshit.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    That's fair - you just have to forget this part of your post then

    "If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country."

    Two corrections required here. One, no member state of the UK is a "colony". Each are, and always have been, independent sovereign nations, and they will continue to be such. They pool elements of sovereignty in the same way that we continue to do so to be part of NATO.

    Second, Scotland is not a "colony" of UK, or more especially England. Neither is Wales or NI. As I have said many times before, Scots have historically been far more active in being colonisers per head of population than the English during the British Empire. Being a "colony" of England is just another bit of Scottish Nasty Party fake history to stir up more racist hatred of "the English". I am sure it works on the gullible, but it is bullshit.
    Correction: That should of course say o member state of the EU is a "colony"
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    algarkirk said:

    It's good the conservatives are able to play culture war tactics. They've been utterly outplayed with some of the american culture war importations.
    Labour will win when it realises again that politics is a retail as well as an in house trade business, that most people have no interest in political arguments, most people are by today's standards neither rich nor poor, that you don't vote for people who call you and your friends 'scum', that they like politicians who make them feel good and can laugh, that competence matters, that we have left the EU for respect worthy reasons, that the public sector is a good servant and bad master and that those outside it think those inside it have a pretty cushy deal, and that they need several million people who have recently voted Tory to pay attention to Labour and actually change their minds and are wanting reasons to do so.
    I would agree with much (not all) on that list but, at the Labour leadership level, a lot of those boxes are already ticked. The problems for Starmer come with a recalcitrant membership, a significant element of which sees its loyalty to a party within a party which promotes ideological purity above all else, plus a hard core still in denial over Brexit. The question which will play out over the next 3 years is whether Starmer can continue to get his way and be seen to do so.

    If Starmer can do so, there are opportunities. The mood of the public is now more accepting of activist government and also of spending in support of it - the days of obsession with "the" deficit (which one?) are long gone. Nor are key public sector workers seen as freeloaders, many front line professionals are more appreciated than ever. There are real concerns with the insecurity of work for many, and the absence of a meaningful safety net is a real issue of political debate as the Government tries to cut it back to pre-pandemic levels. The issue isn't any longer the level of public spending, but where it is targeted and that the beneficiaries are more those being awarded wasteful contracts who too often happen to be mates of Johnson et al. The fact that the Conservatives find it necessary to claim to be "levelling up" sums up all those vulnerabilities, and the risks when the delivery is seen to fail.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
    Mark , I am no expert and don't know enough to pontificate. Given where we are now I am more concerned about the crooks and dumb fools running Scotland into the ground rather than some distant future EU discussion. There will be no independence in near future with these wasters, they are fat and happy , full of careerists counting their gold plated pensions and thinking they have won the lottery by going from useless nobodies to voting fodder on eye watering money. They are not keen on ending the current status quo , where they whine a lot , fill their pockets and have little responsibility other than to blame the other set of wasters at Westminster.
    Some of them have been there near 20 years , earned over £1M and have never said a word or even been known. The list MP's are just party arseholes that won the lottery, they did not even need to be voted in.
    So we should abolish the Scottish Parliament?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Scott_xP said:
    Can't we have a list of the Prime Minister's WAGs like they do footballers?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,592
    A more nuanced article on the move by Intel into the chip foundry business.

    Samsung on high alert over Intel's foundry investments
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2021/03/133_306026.html
    ...Industry analysts said the U.S. is implementing two strategies in order to protect the supply chain of local chip industry ― supporting U.S. chip makers to build new factories there and asking overseas companies to establish new factories in the U.S.

    As seen in the current memory chip industry, which is controlled by the big three companies ― Samsung, SK hynix and Micron ― in the long run the foundry business will be dominated by TSMC of Taiwan, Samsung and Intel.

    The U.S. has already asked the two leading foundry makers ― TSMC of Taiwan and Samsung ― to build new plants there. In response, TSMC already unveiled plans in 2020 to build a $12 billion chip plant in Arizona this year and Samsung is mulling over possible sites for its new chip-making factories.

    Kim Young-woo, an analyst at SK Securities, said the U.S. and Europe will increasingly try to provide incentives to Samsung and TSMC as having their new plants in their countries is the most efficient way of reducing their reliance on Asian countries...
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,442
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
    Mark , I am no expert and don't know enough to pontificate. Given where we are now I am more concerned about the crooks and dumb fools running Scotland into the ground rather than some distant future EU discussion. There will be no independence in near future with these wasters, they are fat and happy , full of careerists counting their gold plated pensions and thinking they have won the lottery by going from useless nobodies to voting fodder on eye watering money. They are not keen on ending the current status quo , where they whine a lot , fill their pockets and have little responsibility other than to blame the other set of wasters at Westminster.
    Some of them have been there near 20 years , earned over £1M and have never said a word or even been known. The list MP's are just party arseholes that won the lottery, they did not even need to be voted in.
    So we should abolish the Scottish Parliament?
    You do wonder whether an "Abolish the Parliament" party might at some point gain traction, as per Wales. Now may not be the moment, but it would reframe the debate a bit. That's probably the line Galloway should have gone down, as a way of differentiating his pop-up party. Quite a few people share Malcy's view about the waste, etc., associated with Holyrood.
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    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    MattW said:

    Selebian said:

    Hardly surprising:

    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1374986040646246401?s=20

    No good deed goes unpunished.....

    Oxford f***ed up royally in demanding this be done at no profit.

    No American University would have made such a stupid mistake. Oxford should have taken a share of the profits which would have given them billions to put into endowments or future research etc
    The alleged AZN viewpoint is a bit arse about face though, for this vaccine. Their choice was this vaccine on a no profit basis, but with the investment opportunities in facilities and research or no vaccine. They didn't have a choice between this vaccine at no profit and this (or any other Covid vaccine, as far as I know) at profit.

    Re Oxford, maybe. They could have potentially cut a deal with another pharma company allowing profits but a strict cost-plus agreement, particularly for the UK (as originators) and developing countries. Still likely cheaper than competitors and maybe better production/PR. However, AZN although with limited vaccine track record are a big player and the mistakes that have been made could also have been made by e.g. GSK. Using a share of profits to fund increased vaccine research capacity at Oxford would have been smart.
    Oxford get a royalty...
    Anything like the royalty BioNTech are making?
    BioNTech are essentially a biotech company. Their business model is massively different to AZs. As an investor led smaller company BioNTech will be looking to get a faster return. AZ on the other hand is playing a longer game. They will make their money when the pandemic emergency is over. Nothing wrong with either model in my view, and the essence of what Bozo meant was that the capitalism model has delivered for the greater good, as it always does. "Greed" on the other hand is a pejorative word that is meant for thickos like Corbyn who would rather the state took over and failed completely.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,379
    Nigelb said:

    A more nuanced article on the move by Intel into the chip foundry business.

    Samsung on high alert over Intel's foundry investments
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/tech/2021/03/133_306026.html
    ...Industry analysts said the U.S. is implementing two strategies in order to protect the supply chain of local chip industry ― supporting U.S. chip makers to build new factories there and asking overseas companies to establish new factories in the U.S.

    As seen in the current memory chip industry, which is controlled by the big three companies ― Samsung, SK hynix and Micron ― in the long run the foundry business will be dominated by TSMC of Taiwan, Samsung and Intel.

    The U.S. has already asked the two leading foundry makers ― TSMC of Taiwan and Samsung ― to build new plants there. In response, TSMC already unveiled plans in 2020 to build a $12 billion chip plant in Arizona this year and Samsung is mulling over possible sites for its new chip-making factories.

    Kim Young-woo, an analyst at SK Securities, said the U.S. and Europe will increasingly try to provide incentives to Samsung and TSMC as having their new plants in their countries is the most efficient way of reducing their reliance on Asian countries...

    The Intel move is the only way that they can stay in the game - note the whining from the stock market "experts" about "over investment" and the compliments on the strategy from people in the industry.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,610
    edited March 2021
    Germany:

    "Criticism of the federal government's "Sleeves up" campaign: "Impact on crucial target group is missing"
    Maria Fiedler 03/03/2021

    The federal government wants to increase the willingness to vaccinate with posters and commercials. The advertising expert Ilka Ringleb says: This does not go down well with those who are undecided."

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.msn.com/de-de/gesundheit/medizinisch/kritik-an-der-%E2%80%9E%C3%A4rmel-hoch%E2%80%9C-kampagne-der-bundesregierung-%E2%80%9Ewirkung-bei-entscheidender-zielgruppe-verfehlt%E2%80%9C/ar-BB1e8UPb&prev=search&pto=aue
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Interesting episode of Newsnight about the vaccine and where we are. Spoiler alert. Guido followers may be disappointed. It's aimed at adults.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000tj3z/newsnight-24032021
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    edited March 2021
    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Do we know for sure if vaccines stop or hinder transmission yet?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    You're a cheery little bundle of joy aren't you.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,610
    edited March 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    I don't see a problem with it, unless your attitude is "Unless everyone can have/do something, no-one should be able to have/do it". Why not be pleased that at least some people are able to do something, even if you can't do it for a short while yet? That would be my attitude.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,379

    It's as yet premature to bet the house on the reopening of outdoor hospitality on 12th April. I think case rates could start to be edging up again by then, and it very much depends on whether the Government is prepared to let them do so if death rates continue to fall.

    There is the potential for a rapid unravelling of the Government's position if the open border with France causes a resurgence of cases and a penetration of the South African/Brazilian variants that are now widespread across the channel, leading to the current recovery timetable being pushed back. On past form, closing the French border will be talked about for another month or so before anything happens.
    So far there is no sign that the case increase has effected the hospitalisation rate - which is till heading down, rapidly

    image
    image
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    eek said:



    ZHC are not a way of getting round the minimum wage - it's rather hard to get around that.

    The approach that is used by Uber and elsewhere is to pay per minute and only include the time you are actually working / deliverying. In their eyes standing round waiting for an order to be placed doesn't count.

    Yes, this resembles the old dock worker issue - dockers were asked to turn up for possible work every day, and were only paid if there actually was any.

    I use ZHC all the time for freelance translation, in the sense that I take jobs when I've got time and don't take them when I haven't. Agencies don't punish me for saying I'm too busy to take a specific job, and I don't hold it against them that they don't always have work. It wouldn't occur to me to ask the agencies to pay me a regular salary for that.

    But if they demanded that I be available to them any time they wanted it - which is the position of the sleazier gig employers - it'd be intolerable. If they added that by the way, they weren't going to provide any of the usual benefits of employment - holidays, sick pay, etc. - then they could fuck right off.

    But I've got a day job and I can say that without wincing. People on the margins can't - they have to take what they can get. That's why Labour feels it requires protective legislation: either (a) you have someone available to you throughout a defined period (5 days a week or whatever) and pay and employ them accordingly or (b) you have a casual relationship and they are free to do other stuff when you don't need them, without reducing their chance of work with you when they're available.
    I broadly agree, but it's very difficult to police this last point. I have several friends who are professional musicians, where almost all work is ZHC. Even some of the country's most famous ensembles pay per gig rather than a salary. But if you're asked to play and turn it down a couple of times, well they probably stop asking you. It very much depends on the specifics of the gig, and whether the fixer likes you, but there are always more performance diploma graduates looking for work to take your place. (Plus let's not get into the murky concept of whether you "fit in musically" with the ensemble, which has historically been used as cover for discrimination.)

    It's clear for the likes of Uber, but say for your translation work what would you do if they did punish you for not taking on work? How could you prove it?

    --AS
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,997
    Scott_xP said:


    At least he's not asking us to do anything he hasn't done himself.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,979

    eek said:



    ZHC are not a way of getting round the minimum wage - it's rather hard to get around that.

    The approach that is used by Uber and elsewhere is to pay per minute and only include the time you are actually working / deliverying. In their eyes standing round waiting for an order to be placed doesn't count.

    Yes, this resembles the old dock worker issue - dockers were asked to turn up for possible work every day, and were only paid if there actually was any.

    I use ZHC all the time for freelance translation, in the sense that I take jobs when I've got time and don't take them when I haven't. Agencies don't punish me for saying I'm too busy to take a specific job, and I don't hold it against them that they don't always have work. It wouldn't occur to me to ask the agencies to pay me a regular salary for that.

    But if they demanded that I be available to them any time they wanted it - which is the position of the sleazier gig employers - it'd be intolerable. If they added that by the way, they weren't going to provide any of the usual benefits of employment - holidays, sick pay, etc. - then they could fuck right off.

    But I've got a day job and I can say that without wincing. People on the margins can't - they have to take what they can get. That's why Labour feels it requires protective legislation: either (a) you have someone available to you throughout a defined period (5 days a week or whatever) and pay and employ them accordingly or (b) you have a casual relationship and they are free to do other stuff when you don't need them, without reducing their chance of work with you when they're available.
    I broadly agree, but it's very difficult to police this last point. I have several friends who are professional musicians, where almost all work is ZHC. Even some of the country's most famous ensembles pay per gig rather than a salary. But if you're asked to play and turn it down a couple of times, well they probably stop asking you. It very much depends on the specifics of the gig, and whether the fixer likes you, but there are always more performance diploma graduates looking for work to take your place. (Plus let's not get into the murky concept of whether you "fit in musically" with the ensemble, which has historically been used as cover for discrimination.)

    It's clear for the likes of Uber, but say for your translation work what would you do if they did punish you for not taking on work? How could you prove it?

    --AS
    Also - how would you know that you are being punished? The work simply wouldn't be being offered to you.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,352

    Do we know for sure if vaccines stop or hinder transmission yet?

    We do. .. but do you?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    Roger said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I imagine the EU would welcome Scotland with open arms. It would be good for both of them so that poll looks pretty good and it shows that Scottish voters are asking the important questions.

    As for the approval ratings in the header Johnson would kill for numbers like that. I don't find them very surprising. She's about the only politician in the UK with universal respect at the moment. Watching her batting away lesser figures reminds me of Merkel in her pomp.
    Universal respect- really
    Of all the images coming from Scotland recently the most memorable were Murdoch Fraser and Jackie Baillie trying to justify calling for Sturgeon's resignation before the facts were known. I've not seen politicians looking more diminished since Derek Hatton's humiliation at the Labour Party Conference.

    There's a reason why you don't call for someone's resignation before your ground is solid. You look ridiculous and you empower the person you are attacking. They should have read Machiavelli's The Prince.
    Roger, research the names before posting imaginary ones.
    I can't even remember Boris Johnson's name anymore!
    Boris cannot remember his new Scottish branch office manager's name either
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    But malcy, if they'll try and do this to the UK, do you not think it might give the Scots, barely a tenth the size, pause for thought at how they might be treated? Do you get any sense that leaving London for Brussels is taking the shine off?
    Those EU member states not keen on seeing the UK break up, notably Spain but there are others, will ensure that an independent Scotland receives no favours. Even the paper written by the SNP's Andrew Wilson forecasts that it would take between 5-10 years for Scotland to have readjusted enough to go into the EU. That's up to ten years outside both the UK and EU. A truly grim forecast.
    utter bollox
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,379

    Do we know for sure if vaccines stop or hinder transmission yet?

    We do. .. but do you?
    Don't tell 'im, Pike!
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    And of course what happens to RAF Lossiemouth and the building of naval ships on the Clyde
    WOW that is all Scotland has to keep it going, get a grip G you are now talking rubbish. The Scottish army can use Lossiemouth and we can build real ships that are useful to the country. Why would Scotland be the only country in the world that cannot run its own affairs.
    I think you will find that RAF Lossiemouth is a huge economic benefit to North East Scotland
    Your point is , if they had Scottish army and whatever air force they needed there, would it suddenly not be a huge economic benefit.
    Scotland will not have the army or air force that would compensate the RAF leaving Lossiemouth
    I think we will need at least 2000 G, so easily cover Lossiemouth and NATO will still want to use it big time.
    The Typhoon and Poseidon squadrons will relocate south. 39 Engineer will leave Kinloss. Their departure would devastate the Moray economy.
    More bollox, they can easily be replaced with equivalent Scottish personnel
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    edited March 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    DM notificaiton: 6 in 10 drinkers welcome no jab, no pint apparently.

    They'll be massively skewed over 50, Tory core vote. It's going to happen.

    So long as it's landlord's choice and not the law.
    No jab, no staff, no pint.

    It is an utterly stupid idea. My fear is that the government, having promised the lifting of restrictions, is going to keep on imposing them - regardless of whether they are workable and regardless of the economic consequences for those affected. They seem, frankly, to have it in for the hospitality sector and pubs/restaurants in particular.

    Why no support for wet-led pubs, who have been abandoned?
    Why can't pubs sell takeaway alcohol while off-licences and other shops can?
    Why no support for breweries?
    Why, now, all this kite-flying about yet more restrictions?

    If Daughter is allowed to open her place again (and the limited April opening is no good for her without the government allowing marquees to be classified as outside space, which they currently aren't) she will be welcoming customers with open arms not checking whether they've had jabs in them.

    A pub/restaurant is a place of pleasure and relaxation not an out-patient's clinic.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,668

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I see yet again the types predicting that Scots are about to join their English bredren in waging war on the EU are barking up the wrong tree. SNP majority and my Tories booted back to humiliating third forecast are looking good.

    https://twitter.com/davidmacdougall/status/1374876727609065474?s=20
    Scotland is divided, angry and intolerance abounds, it is not a good look

    The polls are indicating a near 50/50 split and I just do not see this atmosphere calming for years to come

    It just saddens me
    The 4 years of turmoil post brexit vote would look comparatively simple.

    As someone who loves Scotland and its people, the prospect of years of angry constitutional conflicts saddens me
    Absolutely.

    That’s why an argument of “it’ll all be fine and people will re-align and accept the result” just isn’t going to happen.

    Particularly when some of the harder consequences become clear - I.e raising /adjusting spending to cover any deficit that arises.

    Obviously the UK would have to do a lot in terms of moving assets like trident. But supposed we moved it to Cumbria - like Barrow in Furness. Surely the issue of having nuclear weapons literally next to Scotland still remains an issue
    When I left school in Berwick I travelled to Edinburgh every day by train to work for six months

    I would expect mass migration of Scots to the English side of the border if Scotland goes independent, as their taxation is likely to be much higher

    And of course the question of passports and currency would come into it

    I hardly believe I am writing this
    It is already for higher rate taxpayers , starts at 43K and 41p in the pound , though lower at bottom end.
    I do fail to see how you think it will be higher than England though.
    High time people outside Scotland butted out and the UK had some democracy.
    If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country.
    But you will join the EU ..... riiiight
    If enough people want to , it is called democracy
    That's fair - you just have to forget this part of your post then

    "If we want to run our own affairs and have higher or lower taxes then that is our decision , we should not be a colony to be held ransom by another country."

    Two corrections required here. One, no member state of the UK is a "colony". Each are, and always have been, independent sovereign nations, and they will continue to be such. They pool elements of sovereignty in the same way that we continue to do so to be part of NATO.

    Second, Scotland is not a "colony" of UK, or more especially England. Neither is Wales or NI. As I have said many times before, Scots have historically been far more active in being colonisers per head of population than the English during the British Empire. Being a "colony" of England is just another bit of Scottish Nasty Party fake history to stir up more racist hatred of "the English". I am sure it works on the gullible, but it is bullshit.
    When I was a child in the sixties a common Scottish boast was The Scots ran the British Empire and indeed several of my relations had been employed in Tea Plantations in Ceylon - while others now live in Canada and Australia.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,959
    Scott_xP said:
    Is there a bigger tit than Rennie walking the streets.
This discussion has been closed.