Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
As Max has pointed out before - we provide some core ingredients so this would not work well for them
Florida's new cases tracker through the winter looks remarkably like ours.
Amazing that cases could have fallen like a stone without a draconian lockdown like ours.
You might like to peruse the reports at https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/ Overall, nothing like as big a drop in transit as here, but still big changes in things like workplaces and public transport.
Different weather too, which may help - easier for people to be outside, to have plenty of ventilation etc.
Chances are there's a variant on the lockdown here that could have been similarly effective, but we still probably don't know exactly what.
Yes I see that, but its surely at least arguable that the 'thermostat' connection between lockdown and cases, assumed by many SAGE scientists, the government and many others, is a complete fallacy.
Look at New Mexico's graph, or California's, or the Dakotas for further evidence.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
Um, sure. How do you expect anyone to sink millions into developing them in the first place if you won't let them get a return by licensing them afterwards?
Isn’t the argument we are in bed with some who are good in lobby (with a price marked on bottom of politicians shoes) and get state support others don’t get?
You tell me; it's your argument.
But that sounds much more like a US concern than a UK one. And if your main concern is that we're favouring companies with good PR/GR departments over those with bad ones, my response is a big fat "so what?".
I’ll explain it to you. The argument is not a private v state one, but not really free competition one. Where in the lobby politicians, like hookers with price on bottom of their feet, meet those after government support, in all its forms.
Is anyone stating here big pharma has saved us here creating these vaccines off their own back, now need a fair return for that? No state support. No tax payer money, that went to them, and not to someone else.
If it was not solely them, can you make the argument it’s still solely their IPR?
Tory vote has dropped off, the dispute seems to be the strength of the Labour vote.
Or perhaps 45% was an outlier as a lot of people said at the time. Tories have been consistently well north of 40% in the past few weeks of polling, with now significant gap from Labour.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Chanting the same chant might just count as "gathering".
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
I'm genuinely interested to hear from an EU national (not so much an expat as there may be some conflicting loyalties going on).
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
Yes I’m ashamed at our lack of exports. I mean all we’ve done is work with Oxford to ensure there was a cost price, widely available, locally produced, easy to handle, option all around the world. Selfish, really.
It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
See what?
The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?
We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
The EU has always possessed some bonkers rhetoric. Why would that change how we went about our business one way or the other in the UK? Or are you another one with such little confidence in the UK that you think it would have caved instantly to the EU's desires?
Don't forget the VTF was set up while we were nominally EU members.
The elevation of the idiot Ursula, an inept German defence minister, selected by smoke and mirrors (and by the EU unilaterally dumping its own ‘democratic’ Spitzenkandidat process) was always one of the best arguments for Leave. It revealed the intense dysfunctionality written into the EU’s political DNA
Most Remainers were too dim or blinkered to see this.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Chanting the same chant might just count as "gathering".
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
But we're not discussing protestors. We're discussing "independent legal observers". I doubt they are "chanting".
I don't think any further rules are required other than some cut off (void obviously not a loser) if the by-election is not held. I suggest 1 August 2021.
Other than that I don't contemplate any scenario that would require clarification.
Fine. I'll basically be sending you £5 in a couple of months ;-)
It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
See what?
The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?
We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
The EU has always possessed some bonkers rhetoric. Why would that change how we went about our business one way or the other in the UK? Or are you another one with such little confidence in the UK that you think it would have caved instantly to the EU's desires?
Don't forget the VTF was set up while we were nominally EU members.
Given what happened to the joint procurement effort established by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, which was of course stood down in favour of a Commission led-effort, the idea that the UK, as a full member and alone out of the 28, would've forged its own path if still a member is, at best, highly questionable.
Your last statement isn't merely disingenuous, but outright false. The vaccines taskforce was set up in April 2020, when we had already left the EU and were in the transition period.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
This makes for grim reading and confirms a lot of what was suspected after the Bennell convictions.
Generations of young people suffered horrific sexual abuse at many of England’s professional and amateur football clubs due to a wholesale absence of child protection policies, ignorance and naivety, an inquiry for the Football Association has concluded.
Led by Clive Sheldon QC, the inquiry identified failures to act adequately on complaints or rumours of sexual abuse at eight professional clubs, including Chelsea, Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Southampton, Peterborough – and at Manchester City, Crewe Alexandra and Stoke City, where the prolific abuser Barry Bennell was a youth coach.
Sheldon found that in general, football and the young people who played the sport were left vulnerable to abuse by an absence of a safeguarding culture, that victims were bullied, scared or manipulated into silence, and very few specific reports of abuse were made within clubs, or to the FA.
Sheldon found the FA culpable of “institutional failure” at its delay in introducing safeguarding after 1995, when Bennell and some high-profile abusers in other sports had already been prosecuted and convicted. Bennell had first been convicted in 1994 in the US.
“The FA acted far too slowly to introduce appropriate ... child protection measures [from 1995]. These are significant institutional failings for which there is no excuse. During this period, the FA did not do enough to keep children safe.”
Before that, Sheldon said in his 700-page report, the FA did “nothing proactive to address safeguarding and protect children from child sexual abuse in the sport”. There was no guidance, training or general awareness of child protection issues from 1970 to the mid-1990s, and people working in football “did not pick up on the signs of potential abuse”.
However Sheldon absolved the FA from criticism for those decades in which the sport had no child protection in place for its young players, placing that in the context of general attitudes at the time.
“I do not consider that the FA’s inaction during this period is blameworthy. For most of this period, child abuse was generally seen as something which occurred within the family setting or in residential environments, and not within the world of sport.”
Sheldon added, however, that where incidents of abuse were reported at clubs, “their responses were rarely competent or appropriate”, and where there were “warning signs”, such as rumours of inappropriate behaviour, staff often missed them or took no action.
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
The Telegraph suggests there is a legal instrument they can use:
Mrs von der Leyen suggested she wants EU leaders to discuss triggering Article 122, a clause used by Brussels once previously, during in the oil crisis in the 1970s. This would allow the EU to seize factories, waiving intellectual property and patents and impose export bans.
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Yes that is no surprise to anyone although thanks for the feedback. The question is "why?"
My €0.02 is for a domestic audience "they are fighting for us" say the masses in Lille, or wherever. Hence I would like an EU citizen's perspective.
Not to say obvs that PB isn't a very representational sample...
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
How easy would it be for the EU to relocate its HQ from Brussels?
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
I am waiting with no sign of a jab. I do think their 'strategy' is bonkers. Wrt to AZN I fear they have encouraged widespread scepticism here in Spain where they already only give it to under 55s and have suspended it for 2 weeks. They are also seeking prosecutions because a policeman died from a blod clot! I love where I live - it has many qualities - but the attitudes regarding vaccines are pseudo-medieval. I fear there could be a 4th wave here before we're done. It is very sad.
THIS VACCINE IS SHIT AND KILLS PEOPLE AND WE REFUSE TO USE IT EVEN THO IT SAVES THOUSANDS OF LIVES SO WE WILL FORBID ANYONE FROM EXPORTING IT AND YOU MUST GIVE US SOME OF YOURS SO WE CAN REFUSE TO USE THAT, AS WELL. OR ELSE
Seems to be the EU position. Did I miss something?
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
Which would be what ?
Presumably they were walking around as individuals, not part of a crowd.
Gathering. Unless you are arguing they randomly bumped into the rest of the protestors.
The whole point of observers is that they are outside the gathering.
It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
See what?
The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?
We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
The EU has always possessed some bonkers rhetoric. Why would that change how we went about our business one way or the other in the UK? Or are you another one with such little confidence in the UK that you think it would have caved instantly to the EU's desires?
Don't forget the VTF was set up while we were nominally EU members.
The elevation of the idiot Ursula, an inept German defence minister, selected by smoke and mirrors (and by the EU unilaterally dumping its own ‘democratic’ Spitzenkandidat process) was always one of the best arguments for Leave. It revealed the intense dysfunctionality written into the EU’s political DNA
Most Remainers were too dim or blinkered to see this.
Just as most Leavers assign to the EU bogeyman status to hide their own insecurities.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
Which would be what ?
Presumably they were walking around as individuals, not part of a crowd.
Gathering. Unless you are arguing they randomly bumped into the rest of the protestors.
The whole point of observers is that they are outside the gathering.
There's no legal distinction between observers and participants. They are all gathering in the same place.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Chanting the same chant might just count as "gathering".
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
But we're not discussing protestors. We're discussing "independent legal observers". I doubt they are "chanting".
So these "independent legal observers" are entirely independent of the gathering they are observing? If this gathering they aren't part of wasn't happening, they'd still be there? Observing....er....?
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
I am waiting with no sign of a jab. I do think their 'strategy' is bonkers. Wrt to AZN I fear they have encouraged widespread scepticism here in Spain where they already only give it to under 55s and have suspended it for 2 weeks. They are also seeking prosecutions because a policeman died from a blod clot! I love where I live - it has many qualities - but the attitudes regarding vaccines are pseudo-medieval. I fear there could be a 4th wave here before we're done. It is very sad.
Thanks good to hear - I hope you get your jab sharpish (!). Although looks like case rates in Spain are coming down. What's the lockdown sitch there now?
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
See what?
The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?
We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
The EU has always possessed some bonkers rhetoric. Why would that change how we went about our business one way or the other in the UK? Or are you another one with such little confidence in the UK that you think it would have caved instantly to the EU's desires?
Don't forget the VTF was set up while we were nominally EU members.
The elevation of the idiot Ursula, an inept German defence minister, selected by smoke and mirrors (and by the EU unilaterally dumping its own ‘democratic’ Spitzenkandidat process) was always one of the best arguments for Leave. It revealed the intense dysfunctionality written into the EU’s political DNA
Most Remainers were too dim or blinkered to see this.
Just as most Leavers assign to the EU bogeyman status to hide their own insecurities.
Do you REALLY believe that trite bollocks?
You can accuse Brexiteers of many things, but insecurity would be a LONG way down the list.....
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Chanting the same chant might just count as "gathering".
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
But we're not discussing protestors. We're discussing "independent legal observers". I doubt they are "chanting".
So these "independent legal observers" are entirely independent of the gathering they are observing? If this gathering they aren't part of wasn't happening, they'd still be there? Observing....er....?
Hmmm. Still much to learn, Padawan....
To learn about what?
Remember protesting is not necessary unlawful under the COVID regulations as confirmed by the High Court.
However I'm not sure whether it matters if the "independent legal observers" are there only to observe the "protest" or not. Like I said, what's the difference between that and me going to sit on a park bench to people watch with a nice coffee. If nobody was in the park I wouldn't go?
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
THIS VACCINE IS SHIT AND KILLS PEOPLE AND WE REFUSE TO USE IT EVEN THO IT SAVES THOUSANDS OF LIVES SO WE WILL FORBID ANYONE FROM EXPORTING IT AND YOU MUST GIVE US SOME OF YOURS SO WE CAN REFUSE TO USE THAT, AS WELL. OR ELSE
Seems to be the EU position. Did I miss something?
That appears to be the position. But you should only whisper it in case it upsets the Remainers!
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Chanting the same chant might just count as "gathering".
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
But we're not discussing protestors. We're discussing "independent legal observers". I doubt they are "chanting".
So these "independent legal observers" are entirely independent of the gathering they are observing? If this gathering they aren't part of wasn't happening, they'd still be there? Observing....er....?
Hmmm. Still much to learn, Padawan....
To learn about what?
Remember protesting is not necessary unlawful under the COVID regulations as confirmed by the High Court.
However I'm not sure whether it matters if the "independent legal observers" are there only to observe the "protest" or not. Like I said, what's the difference between that and me going to sit on a park bench to people watch with a nice coffee. If nobody was in the park I wouldn't go?
The High Court judgment didn't say it was lawful either.
I can't work out whether you are being deliberately disingenuous - or unavoidably dim.
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....they also released a contract with AZN in a rage thinking it would expose what a disgusting two faced company AZN was, and that also blew up in their face.
You would hope the men in grey suit would usher her away, but this is the EC we are talking about, where drunk Juncker managed to be in place for donkeys years.
The terms have been set deliberately to pick a fight with the UK - ignoring entirely the fact that, as things presently stand, the flow of exports is bound to go in one direction, because production of the AstraZeneca effort is widely distributed whereas that of the Pfizer vaccine is concentrated in particular facilities in continental Europe. It's really very bad.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
See what?
The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?
We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
The EU has always possessed some bonkers rhetoric. Why would that change how we went about our business one way or the other in the UK? Or are you another one with such little confidence in the UK that you think it would have caved instantly to the EU's desires?
Don't forget the VTF was set up while we were nominally EU members.
The elevation of the idiot Ursula, an inept German defence minister, selected by smoke and mirrors (and by the EU unilaterally dumping its own ‘democratic’ Spitzenkandidat process) was always one of the best arguments for Leave. It revealed the intense dysfunctionality written into the EU’s political DNA
Most Remainers were too dim or blinkered to see this.
Just as most Leavers assign to the EU bogeyman status to hide their own insecurities.
Do you REALLY believe that trite bollocks?
You can accuse Brexiteers of many things, but insecurity would be a LONG way down the list.....
There have been many posts along the lines of "thank goodness we're not still members or our govt would have signed up to XYZ".
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
Chanting the same chant might just count as "gathering".
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
But we're not discussing protestors. We're discussing "independent legal observers". I doubt they are "chanting".
So these "independent legal observers" are entirely independent of the gathering they are observing? If this gathering they aren't part of wasn't happening, they'd still be there? Observing....er....?
Hmmm. Still much to learn, Padawan....
To learn about what?
Remember protesting is not necessary unlawful under the COVID regulations as confirmed by the High Court.
However I'm not sure whether it matters if the "independent legal observers" are there only to observe the "protest" or not. Like I said, what's the difference between that and me going to sit on a park bench to people watch with a nice coffee. If nobody was in the park I wouldn't go?
The High Court judgment didn't say it was lawful either.
I can't work out whether you are being deliberately disingenuous - or unavoidably dim.
There's no reason to be so rude.
You said "they are subject to the same covid rules" implying their arrest was justified.
I'm merely arguing that it isn't quite so simple and I don't think I'm being disingenuous or "dim".
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Yes that is no surprise to anyone although thanks for the feedback. The question is "why?"
My €0.02 is for a domestic audience "they are fighting for us" say the masses in Lille, or wherever. Hence I would like an EU citizen's perspective.
Not to say obvs that PB isn't a very representational sample...
Hmm, that doesn't resolve the basic issue of not having enough vaccines now that AZ have cut deliveries to 30m (Q1), Pfizer to 50m (Q1) and J&J to just 20m (Q2).
To my mind the EU wants Belgium to threaten Pfizer and try and force them to reallocate supply from their non-EU clients to the EU but given that Pfizer is an American company I'm really not sure how much leverage really exists.
... if only they didn't make it their invariable policy to side with the criminals, that is.
Prison users is I think Labour's preferred term now
The 'legally-challenged' know that Labour will always have their backs...
Haven't watched it yet.
Did they go with decriminalising rape? And did Boris read out the letter from Shadow Attorney General Emily Thornberry MP to Keir Starmer DPP complaining that he was weakening the rape prosecution process by reducing the role of specialist prosecutors?
(That was in about 2012)
Not using those exact words, but in essence. Interesting reminder about that letter - Boris should definitely keep a few nukes like it in his back pocket if Labour keeps pushing this shit.
Von der Layen sounds like she’s been a little too enthusiastic with the pharmaceuticals this morning.
Does she actually think that seizing vaccine factories is going to help the situation in any way, or would she rather fewer people get vaccinated so long as it doesn’t look like EU countries are behind?
Great news for future UK and Swiss investment though, a lot of large companies will be watching closely...
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
By definition "independent legal observers" are not undertaking a protest, they are merely observing it.
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....
Violating IP is one of those things that is a deal breaker for so many.
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
How easy would it be for the EU to relocate its HQ from Brussels?
The official home of the EU Parliament is already Strasbourg, so perhaps not as difficult as all that.
Interesting. And not to favour one over the other, but that would then initiate a debate about the implicit costs of lockdown in terms of all those things - economy, physical health from not seeing doctors, mental health, etc.
Not sure what the right answer is I'm sure someone can crunch a "lockdown death rate per day" although that would be explicit costs only.
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....
Violating IP is one of those things that is a deal breaker for so many.
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
You would think blocking exports of life saving vaccines would also be "deal breaker". It still pisses off pharma companies as you are interfering in their business and them fulfilling legally agreed contracts.
Also remember the EU officials keep "dropping" in on their production facilities demanding paperwork, like something out the Stasi. That isn't going to endear them to pharma companies either.
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....they released a contract with AZN in a rage thinking it would expose what a disgusting two faced company AZN was, and that also blew up in their face.
They seem to have a desire to be seen to be doing something because otherwise they will take the blame.
The fact there is nothing they can do and everything they have so far done has made thing worse is something they haven't yet picked up on.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
It becomes a quantum problem. When it is observable the status changes.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
By definition "independent legal observers" are not undertaking a protest, they are merely observing it.
But they gathered in the same place for the protest, planning in advance when and where to meet, and staying with them the whole time. Just because they aren't playing the same role doesn't mean they aren't part of the same gathering.
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Yes that is no surprise to anyone although thanks for the feedback. The question is "why?"
My €0.02 is for a domestic audience "they are fighting for us" say the masses in Lille, or wherever. Hence I would like an EU citizen's perspective.
Not to say obvs that PB isn't a very representational sample...
Hmm, that doesn't resolve the basic issue of not having enough vaccines now that AZ have cut deliveries to 30m (Q1), Pfizer to 50m (Q1) and J&J to just 20m (Q2).
To my mind the EU wants Belgium to threaten Pfizer and try and force them to reallocate supply from their non-EU clients to the EU but given that Pfizer is an American company I'm really not sure how much leverage really exists.
Yes, threatening US companies in this way is... an approach.
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....
Violating IP is one of those things that is a deal breaker for so many.
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
You would think blocking exports of life saving vaccines would also be "deal breaker".
Not so much for pharma.
Remember the likes of Pfizer and AZN they make more than Covid-19 vaccines.
No doubt the Tories will pop in to tell us why this is an improvement
Well, fairly obviously it puts the system for the Mayoral election into line with the system used for national (and other local) elections. And AV was comprehensively rejected as an electoral system via national referendum in 2011. However, it's extremely unlikely that it would make much difference to the next couple of contests, unless something dramatic happens to split the Labour vote.
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Yes that is no surprise to anyone although thanks for the feedback. The question is "why?"
My €0.02 is for a domestic audience "they are fighting for us" say the masses in Lille, or wherever. Hence I would like an EU citizen's perspective.
Not to say obvs that PB isn't a very representational sample...
Hmm, that doesn't resolve the basic issue of not having enough vaccines now that AZ have cut deliveries to 30m (Q1), Pfizer to 50m (Q1) and J&J to just 20m (Q2).
To my mind the EU wants Belgium to threaten Pfizer and try and force them to reallocate supply from their non-EU clients to the EU but given that Pfizer is an American company I'm really not sure how much leverage really exists.
I'm sure no leverage whatsoever. It is a ridiculous and meaningless threat if for no other reason that to execute such a move would take time and bureaucracy and Member State agreement.
But I am still interested in what Juan and Juanita Public think of it.
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....
Violating IP is one of those things that is a deal breaker for so many.
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
You would think blocking exports of life saving vaccines would also be "deal breaker".
Not so much for pharma.
Remember the likes of Pfizer and AZN they make more than Covid-19 vaccines.
The raiding / dropping in for inspection on production every few days does effect them directly. Who wants to work under that kind of regime?
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
I am waiting with no sign of a jab. I do think their 'strategy' is bonkers. Wrt to AZN I fear they have encouraged widespread scepticism here in Spain where they already only give it to under 55s and have suspended it for 2 weeks. They are also seeking prosecutions because a policeman died from a blod clot! I love where I live - it has many qualities - but the attitudes regarding vaccines are pseudo-medieval. I fear there could be a 4th wave here before we're done. It is very sad.
Thanks good to hear - I hope you get your jab sharpish (!). Although looks like case rates in Spain are coming down. What's the lockdown sitch there now?
We are confined to provinces only - 10pm curfew, 6pm for restaurants. Set to continue right through till Easter. Masks remain obligatory everywhere. Numbers much better than Germany, etc but there are fears they could go up again and most vaccines only people 80 and above. AZN paused for 2 weeks minimum.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Well here’s an Irish citizen, unimpressed by Ursula
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....
Violating IP is one of those things that is a deal breaker for so many.
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
I don't know about that, the export blocks haven't been good for pharma investment in Italy. The American company who had to breach their contract isn't happy about it, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced a new fill and finish site in Switzerland in a few months and the closure of their Italian site. Lower tax structure and a much better busines environment for moving a few hundred miles north.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
By definition "independent legal observers" are not undertaking a protest, they are merely observing it.
But they gathered in the same place for the protest, planning in advance when and where to meet, and staying with them the whole time. Just because they aren't playing the same role doesn't mean they aren't part of the same gathering.
Well we don't know anything about what was planned and what wasn't. They could simply be people who heard about a protest and went along to observe, which as far as I can see is not "gathering" as per the covid regulations...
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Well here’s an Irish citizen, unimpressed by Ursula
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
I think that is unfair on 2 of our finest bufoons - they're really not quite that dumb!
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
By definition "independent legal observers" are not undertaking a protest, they are merely observing it.
But they gathered in the same place for the protest, planning in advance when and where to meet, and staying with them the whole time. Just because they aren't playing the same role doesn't mean they aren't part of the same gathering.
Well we don't know anything about what was planned and what wasn't. They could simply be people who heard about a protest and went along to observe, which as far as I can see is not "gathering" as per the covid regulations...
And they just happened to have a "legal observer" high-vis jacket? That seems extremely unlikely.
Looking into it, it is unclear how the role of an observer can be undertaken without any social interaction whatsoever.
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
The EU still views the USA as its key geopolitical rival, and the UK as a renegade state (recalcitrant child?) that must be brought into line. This is as China and Russia (real threats) are posed to eat it up inside and out.
Its thinking is thirty years out of date with no sign of changing. Probably because it poses too many difficult questions that they'd rather not have to engage with.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
I am waiting with no sign of a jab. I do think their 'strategy' is bonkers. Wrt to AZN I fear they have encouraged widespread scepticism here in Spain where they already only give it to under 55s and have suspended it for 2 weeks. They are also seeking prosecutions because a policeman died from a blod clot! I love where I live - it has many qualities - but the attitudes regarding vaccines are pseudo-medieval. I fear there could be a 4th wave here before we're done. It is very sad.
Thanks good to hear - I hope you get your jab sharpish (!). Although looks like case rates in Spain are coming down. What's the lockdown sitch there now?
We are confined to provinces only - 10pm curfew, 6pm for restaurants. Set to continue right through till Easter. Masks remain obligatory everywhere. Numbers much better than Germany, etc but there are fears they could go up again and most vaccines only people 80 and above. AZN paused for 2 weeks minimum.
Thanks again. We'd kill for a 6pm restaurant closing. Although I appreciate that that is still what, four hours before you would expect to sit down for supper...
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....they released a contract with AZN in a rage thinking it would expose what a disgusting two faced company AZN was, and that also blew up in their face.
They seem to have a desire to be seen to be doing something because otherwise they will take the blame.
The fact there is nothing they can do and everything they have so far done has made thing worse is something they haven't yet picked up on.
We must blame them and cause a fuss Before someone thinks of blaming us
Just to give a slightly different perspective, our EU guy has popped up on slack to say this - the EU doesn't directly have any power to do anything, it can give member states the means to do the things UVdL is saying but it will be up to the specific member states to use those powers. On that basis it means Belgium would need to step in and expropriate the Pfizer, AZ and J&J vaccine IP and production and given how big the Belgian pharma sector is and how dependent the Belgian economy is on it this seems extremely unlikely to happen.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Yes that is no surprise to anyone although thanks for the feedback. The question is "why?"
My €0.02 is for a domestic audience "they are fighting for us" say the masses in Lille, or wherever. Hence I would like an EU citizen's perspective.
Not to say obvs that PB isn't a very representational sample...
Hmm, that doesn't resolve the basic issue of not having enough vaccines now that AZ have cut deliveries to 30m (Q1), Pfizer to 50m (Q1) and J&J to just 20m (Q2).
To my mind the EU wants Belgium to threaten Pfizer and try and force them to reallocate supply from their non-EU clients to the EU but given that Pfizer is an American company I'm really not sure how much leverage really exists.
Yes, threatening US companies in this way is... an approach.
I believe Canada is entirely reliant on the EU for vaccines (legally contracted). If the EU does go full psycho, it will be interesting to see if they block exports there. Perhaps not, because Canada’s vaccine programme is slower than the EU’s. I can’t see the EU blocking exports to the USA (are there any?) because realpolitik
Like Max, I wouldn't worry about UVDL threats today.
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
We heard similar claims about blocking vaccine exports, until they did....
Violating IP is one of those things that is a deal breaker for so many.
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
You would think blocking exports of life saving vaccines would also be "deal breaker".
Not so much for pharma.
Remember the likes of Pfizer and AZN they make more than Covid-19 vaccines.
Yes, and they're always looking to invest in their future of their business. This isn't helping the overall EU investment environment for pharma. Then there's the infusion of Germany's idiotic "precautionary principle" throughout the whole EU that all pharma companies loathe.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
By definition "independent legal observers" are not undertaking a protest, they are merely observing it.
But they gathered in the same place for the protest, planning in advance when and where to meet, and staying with them the whole time. Just because they aren't playing the same role doesn't mean they aren't part of the same gathering.
Antifia playbook contains this approach...people are just there claiming to be legal observers, media, medics....expect they aren't, they are there to support the action being undertaken. They step in as soon as police try to make an arrest to try, the "media" accidentally on purpose get in the way and the medics provide supplies.
Interesting. And not to favour one over the other, but that would then initiate a debate about the implicit costs of lockdown in terms of all those things - economy, physical health from not seeing doctors, mental health, etc.
Not sure what the right answer is I'm sure someone can crunch a "lockdown death rate per day" although that would be explicit costs only.
January was an incredibly dark time. It has never got anywhere near that bad in Florida. We needed to get deaths down and quickly. The lockdown, coupled with the vaccine effect, has done that. My view is that we are in a far far better position than we were this time last year. The adults are now running the show (without Cummings) and a bet on vaccines has paid off.
Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?
They're not protesting.
They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?
Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
Yeah, but what's "gathering"? If I go to the park on my own to people watch, which is now permitted, am I gathering with them?
No, you didn't go to see anyone specific, so you aren't gathering.
But the "independent legal observers" are not going out to see anyone specific either, I presume.
I'm pretty sure they went out to see the protestors.
Yeah, "the protestors". Not anyone specific.
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
They went to see a specific group of people, you didn't. Otherwise anyone could be arrested for walking past someone.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
I don't think it's fair to say that at all. What activity are the protestors and the "independent legal observers" undertaking *WITH* each other? *With* being the key word.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
The activity they are undertaking is the protest, they just have different roles.
By definition "independent legal observers" are not undertaking a protest, they are merely observing it.
But they gathered in the same place for the protest, planning in advance when and where to meet, and staying with them the whole time. Just because they aren't playing the same role doesn't mean they aren't part of the same gathering.
Well we don't know anything about what was planned and what wasn't. They could simply be people who heard about a protest and went along to observe, which as far as I can see is not "gathering" as per the covid regulations...
And they just happened to have a "legal observer" high-vis jacket? That seems extremely unlikely.
Looking into it, it is unclear how the role of an observer can be undertaken without any social interaction whatsoever.
Comments
Tory vote has dropped off, the dispute seems to be the strength of the Labour vote.
Look at New Mexico's graph, or California's, or the Dakotas for further evidence.
He adds that other countries such as Italy (AZ fill and finish) or Spain (Moderna fill and finish) may use these measures but it would only result in their smaller pharma industry base decamping to the UK and Switzerland.
Is anyone stating here big pharma has saved us here creating these vaccines off their own back, now need a fair return for that?
No state support. No tax payer money, that went to them, and not to someone else.
If it was not solely them, can you make the argument it’s still solely their IPR?
Unless you think they all engage in identical spontaneous karaoke?
@kamski is one of those, isn't he/she/it?
Words fail me. What a f******* disgrace of a comment.
Most Remainers were too dim or blinkered to see this.
Your last statement isn't merely disingenuous, but outright false. The vaccines taskforce was set up in April 2020, when we had already left the EU and were in the transition period.
Generations of young people suffered horrific sexual abuse at many of England’s professional and amateur football clubs due to a wholesale absence of child protection policies, ignorance and naivety, an inquiry for the Football Association has concluded.
Led by Clive Sheldon QC, the inquiry identified failures to act adequately on complaints or rumours of sexual abuse at eight professional clubs, including Chelsea, Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Southampton, Peterborough – and at Manchester City, Crewe Alexandra and Stoke City, where the prolific abuser Barry Bennell was a youth coach.
Sheldon found that in general, football and the young people who played the sport were left vulnerable to abuse by an absence of a safeguarding culture, that victims were bullied, scared or manipulated into silence, and very few specific reports of abuse were made within clubs, or to the FA.
Sheldon found the FA culpable of “institutional failure” at its delay in introducing safeguarding after 1995, when Bennell and some high-profile abusers in other sports had already been prosecuted and convicted. Bennell had first been convicted in 1994 in the US.
“The FA acted far too slowly to introduce appropriate ... child protection measures [from 1995]. These are significant institutional failings for which there is no excuse. During this period, the FA did not do enough to keep children safe.”
Before that, Sheldon said in his 700-page report, the FA did “nothing proactive to address safeguarding and protect children from child sexual abuse in the sport”. There was no guidance, training or general awareness of child protection issues from 1970 to the mid-1990s, and people working in football “did not pick up on the signs of potential abuse”.
However Sheldon absolved the FA from criticism for those decades in which the sport had no child protection in place for its young players, placing that in the context of general attitudes at the time.
“I do not consider that the FA’s inaction during this period is blameworthy. For most of this period, child abuse was generally seen as something which occurred within the family setting or in residential environments, and not within the world of sport.”
Sheldon added, however, that where incidents of abuse were reported at clubs, “their responses were rarely competent or appropriate”, and where there were “warning signs”, such as rumours of inappropriate behaviour, staff often missed them or took no action.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/mar/17/football-sexual-abuse-report-scandal-sheldon-fa
Mrs von der Leyen suggested she wants EU leaders to discuss triggering Article 122, a clause used by Brussels once previously, during in the oil crisis in the 1970s. This would allow the EU to seize factories, waiving intellectual property and patents and impose export bans.
My €0.02 is for a domestic audience "they are fighting for us" say the masses in Lille, or wherever. Hence I would like an EU citizen's perspective.
Not to say obvs that PB isn't a very representational sample...
Seems to be the EU position. Did I miss something?
Belgium’s slow rollout ‘absurd’ with so many vaccines made in the country
https://www.euronews.com/2021/02/25/belgium-s-slow-rollout-absurd-with-so-many-vaccines-made-in-the-country
Belgium considers U-turn on Oxford Covid vaccine for over-55s
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/01/belgium-considers-u-turn-on-oxford-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-for-over-55s
Belgium slow to distribute Oxford vaccine doses as Covid cases rise
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/26/belgium-slow-to-distribute-oxford-vaccine-doses-as-covid-cases-rise
‘Gigantic problem’: Belgium’s vaccination campaign further delayed
https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/156504/gigantic-problem-belgiums-vaccination-campaign-further-delayed/
Hmmm. Still much to learn, Padawan....
What's the difference between that and me going to the park to see "the people in the park on Wednesday"?
I don't actually know the definition of "gathering" in the COVID legislation and to be quite frank I can't be arsed to look.
Can't win, so change the system.
No doubt the Tories will pop in to tell us why this is an improvement
Ever heard of working from home during a pandemic? It's quite normal at the moment.
The definition is:
there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
And I think it is fair to say an observer is undertaking an activity with the others.
You can accuse Brexiteers of many things, but insecurity would be a LONG way down the list.....
Remember protesting is not necessary unlawful under the COVID regulations as confirmed by the High Court.
However I'm not sure whether it matters if the "independent legal observers" are there only to observe the "protest" or not. Like I said, what's the difference between that and me going to sit on a park bench to people watch with a nice coffee. If nobody was in the park I wouldn't go?
When they think through their consequences they'll step back.
They'll only get a short term boost but within months they won't have a pharma industry and this is the key thing, it is very likely annual booster shots (starting with this autumn/winter) will become a thing.
If they want to avoid a winter wave then they need calmer heads to prevail, she's been sabre rattling like this month, remember she's the German Chris Grayling/Gavin Williamson.
I can't work out whether you are being deliberately disingenuous - or unavoidably dim.
https://twitter.com/BristOliver/status/1371180125568565253
You would hope the men in grey suit would usher her away, but this is the EC we are talking about, where drunk Juncker managed to be in place for donkeys years.
The protestors aren't undertaking any activity WITH the "independent legal observers".
Likewise the "independent legal observers" are not undertaking any activity WITH the protestors.
It's pretty passive.
Arguable, in my opinion.
= insecurity.
You said "they are subject to the same covid rules" implying their arrest was justified.
I'm merely arguing that it isn't quite so simple and I don't think I'm being disingenuous or "dim".
To my mind the EU wants Belgium to threaten Pfizer and try and force them to reallocate supply from their non-EU clients to the EU but given that Pfizer is an American company I'm really not sure how much leverage really exists.
6,782 / 5,701 450k UK equivalent
includes 3,136 jabs backdated from prior to yesterday -
https://www.emilythornberry.com/legacy/2012/09/25/cps_backslides_on_rape_prosecutions/
Does she actually think that seizing vaccine factories is going to help the situation in any way, or would she rather fewer people get vaccinated so long as it doesn’t look like EU countries are behind?
Great news for future UK and Swiss investment though, a lot of large companies will be watching closely...
The EU gets the same reports we do, there maybe another pandemic in the next decade or so, you really don't want to piss off pharma, the blocking the vaccine export pissed off the Aussies, not that much pharma.
Not sure what the right answer is I'm sure someone can crunch a "lockdown death rate per day" although that would be explicit costs only.
Also remember the EU officials keep "dropping" in on their production facilities demanding paperwork, like something out the Stasi. That isn't going to endear them to pharma companies either.
The fact there is nothing they can do and everything they have so far done has made thing worse is something they haven't yet picked up on.
Remember the likes of Pfizer and AZN they make more than Covid-19 vaccines.
Now she's heading out on a low
But I am still interested in what Juan and Juanita Public think of it.
https://twitter.com/actingthegom/status/1372169367534862340?s=21
Its like a cult from him. Thou shalt not criticise Europe.
Looking into it, it is unclear how the role of an observer can be undertaken without any social interaction whatsoever.
https://greenandblackcross.org/guides/what-is-a-legal-observer/
Its thinking is thirty years out of date with no sign of changing. Probably because it poses too many difficult questions that they'd rather not have to engage with.
Before someone thinks of blaming us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA
So this is aimed at the UK, UAE and Israel.
I often wonder what he does for a living, as he's always on here. I'm retired and I don't stay as long...
https://twitter.com/BristOliver/status/1371864771495141376