Wasn't the number one argument of EU membership that the EU are best placed to negotiate deals? Were they always this terrible at negotiating deals, or is their ineptitude specific to the pandemic?
They’ve almost certainly never procured pharmaceuticals before.
They prioritised price and liability in the negotiations, as other countries were prioritising time and capital investment partnerships.
Not sure the UK and Israel care too much at this point, about having to eat price and liability.
Prioritising price hasn't worked out now they've fallen out with the £3 option and are buying lots of the £25 option.
It's interesting that England is running so fewer 2nd doses compared to the other nations.
That changes from this week when millions of second doses become necessary per week.
From a bang per buck point of view it makes sense at a macro level.
You get 2/3rd risk reduction from a 1st shot in a fresh person, and just an extra 1/4 risk reduction from a second shot, so why wouldn't you maximise first shots?
There's a case for second shots for crusties over first shots for 20 year olds, as the risk or death for a 20 year old is so low.
If you're purely aiming for individual protection. From a lowering R and preventing general spread there would be something to be said for getting immunity going in younger, more social demographics now the priority groups are basically covered.
The one-shot J&J arrives in April, they should send them out to pharmacies and do them to all-comers standing in line.
McDonalds, Starbucks, etc Drive-Thrus.....I'll have 48 shots in a venti mocha frappuccino with soy mocha drizzle, matcha powder, protein powder, caramel brûlée topping, strawberries, two bananas, caramel drizzle frappuccino chips and vanilla bean....and a J&J jab please.
Reopen bars and give a free Jagerbomb to everyone who gets jabbed. Shots for shots.
Disgusting stuff Jägermeister.
It's quite nice served straight from the freezer. Problem is most bars keep it in a fridge instead.
If a bar keeps it in the freezer I'd drink it neat.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
Le Pen could win comfortably in the end. France has no clear path out of the pandemic, and Macron doesn't have the stomach to do what needs to be done (basically, make vaccines compulsory). They're in for a year of total chaos, and then Le Pen capitalises on that by smashing Macron to bits in the run-off. They really have to hope they find two candidates who can beat her in Round 1.
It's quite a scary thought that Le Pen has a very real chance of becoming the French president. I'm hoping that the French people will have a long hard think in the polling booth and hover over the Le Pen box rather than vote for her. It would be a real disaster for all of Europe for her to be in power.
Well, bright side. Maybe she'll stuff up France so badly that everyone else will have second thoughts about the far right. Like how the Greens have turned Brighton into a third world country so no one else is tempted to vote for them. Or how Brexit killed off all the other anti-EU movements, and the Commission is now working overtime to resuscitate their designated common enemy.
But, yes. That would still not be good. Le Pen may be mightier than the sword, but she is... unpleasant.
I think Le Pen (Jr) is a much less unpleasant than people think. She's a very different character to her father.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
That’s the most mystifying thing about the whole sorry episode - why on Earth are the EU not engaging constructively with the suppliers, and asking what they can do to help get more manufacturing going?
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
That’s the most mystifying thing about the whole sorry episode - why on Earth are the EU not engaging constructively with the suppliers, and asking what they can do to help get more manufacturing going?
Yup, the correct approach is "how big a cheque do you want and who should we make it out to?". It's a really odd decision to do anything else.
The comments from UVDL today are unacceptable and why anyone can support her or the EU is beyond belief
I did vote remain and accepted leaving as a democratic vote, but I would not vote to be any part of this toxic organisation again
You concede they do have an argument on the IPR though? Team effort created it, so all the team have a say?
It's entirely dependent on where the IP resides. For example, it is hard to argue that the genomic sequence of the spike protein and protein structure of the epitopes for SARS-CoV-2 could be protected as IP, as these are easily discoverable with modern technology. And the 'design' of any viral vector, mRNA or protein vaccine will home in on this easily discoverable information.
What is IP is how you present and stabilize the mRNA or the protein sub-unit in your vaccine, to ensure it has a shelf-life and to amplify the immune response to the antigen in question.
With regard to Novavax and Moderna, their IP is firmly linked to these technologies, which is not COVID-specific and presumably has not been funded by governments in response to COVID (although I think Novavax has received a lot of funding through BARDA over the years since Amerithrax).
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
She’s not really top level though
More of a third tier mediocrity that Merkel promoted away from a position in the German Cabinet
With a few exceptions, isn't that one of the major problems of the EU? The Commissions is made up of Has Beens and Never Will Bes. (Yes, yes, yes, I know there are exceptions.)
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
That’s the most mystifying thing about the whole sorry episode - why on Earth are the EU not engaging constructively with the suppliers, and asking what they can do to help get more manufacturing going?
Yup, the correct approach is "how big a cheque do you want and who should we make it out to?". It's a really odd decision to do anything else.
I think the issue is that they wasted 3 months and then tried to justify the delay by announcing the money they saved.
Which means they cannot now go and ask how big a cheque do you want as that would mean the dismal delivery so far could be blamed on their previous approach.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
She’s not really top level though
More of a third tier mediocrity that Merkel promoted away from a position in the German Cabinet
With a few exceptions, isn't that one of the major problems of the EU? The Commissions is made up of Has Beens and Never Will Bes. (Yes, yes, yes, I know there are exceptions.)
Yeah
Will be interesting to see if any national voting blocs start to get behind the idea of a vote of censure to sack the commission.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
There’s still this misapprehension that the UK *government* is blocking vaccine exports, even after the EU themselves have conceded there’s no such ban in place.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Following up, it's important to remember that the UK wasn't a vaccines powerhouse before COVID and the VTF, I think there was only one vaccine manufactured in the UK for Japanese encephalitis by Valneva in Scotland, otherwise we were always a net importer of vaccines, mostly from Belgium where even our own GSK has chosen to base its vaccine production. We'd never have been in the position of exporting anything because we had no significant means of production until the government subsidised everything it could and in return secured exclusivity on UK production. I think the counterfactual just couldn't have happened, at least not the bit about UK companies exporting elsewhere while not servicing the UK government contract.
This is such an important point. It's not that we simply signed contracts earlier than the EU, we spent money and put work in to expand vaccine supply so that there are more vaccines than there otherwise would be.
If the UK had not done any of this it wouldn't make any more vaccines available to the EU.
I think the actions the UK government has taken on Covid vaccines is one of the best things any UK government has done in many years - and the contributions to Covax show that it's far from being selfish.
It's beyond pathetic for the EU to be acting as though we've somehow victimised them as a result.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
I still don't see it as realistic for the EU to impose an export ban on the UK. Firstly it would need to be Belgium and that, as my colleague has pointed out to me, is very unlikely given the nature of Belgium's pharma industry, secondly the Pfizer production in the EU is critically dependent on the UK supply chain and I'm 100% certain that if the Belgians blocked exports to the UK the UK would in turn block exports to Belgium of those critical materials (the lipid layer which stabilises the mRNA) resulting in a manufacturing halt until a suitable replacement supplier could be found or Pfizer decamped to the UK or Switzerland to ensure contracts could continue to be filled without any unnecessary drama.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
In about 3 months the UK is going to be awash with surplus but paid for vaccines. I was all for these being made available to the EU in our own self interest given the quantity of travel and trade we have with them. I have changed my mind. I suspect that I am not alone.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
Hasn't the bulk of the UK's Pfizer order been delivered already? How much more are we expecting?
No, we're probably at just under half of the 40m order delivered. I'd imagine Pfizer would supply us from the US supply chain after Boris had a word with Joe and we redirect our lipid-layer exports to the US supply chain so they could ramp up manufacturing and avoid any slowdown in deliveries to the US.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
We should announce that we are to export a briefcase full of vaccines to somewhere like the Maldives, if only to make the EU rewrite their ban criteria out again.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
Hasn't the bulk of the UK's Pfizer order been delivered already? How much more are we expecting?
No, we're probably at just under half of the 40m order delivered. I'd imagine Pfizer would supply us from the US supply chain after Boris had a word with Joe and we redirect our lipid-layer exports to the US supply chain so they could ramp up manufacturing and avoid any slowdown in deliveries to the US.
I would like that too, but they haven't helped the Canadians out yet, hence why Canada is supplied with Pfizer via the EU.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
I still don't see it as realistic for the EU to impose an export ban on the UK. Firstly it would need to be Belgium and that, as my colleague has pointed out to me, is very unlikely given the nature of Belgium's pharma industry, secondly the Pfizer production in the EU is critically dependent on the UK supply chain and I'm 100% certain that if the Belgians blocked exports to the UK the UK would in turn block exports to Belgium of those critical materials (the lipid layer which stabilises the mRNA) resulting in a manufacturing halt until a suitable replacement supplier could be found or Pfizer decamped to the UK or Switzerland to ensure contracts could continue to be filled without any unnecessary drama.
And that is also to ignore that the technology for producing the lipids is one of the rate limiting capacities globally. It is not as though Belgium could easily find another producer to replace imports from the UK (and, in any case, they are probably all already working at capacity to fulfill contracts elsewhere).
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
That might all be true, but I think we are at cross-purposes. I was attempting to answer the question asked - about how people in the EU might feel about threats to block vaccine exports.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I'm happy to have AZ as my second dose. Bring it on.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
Hasn't the bulk of the UK's Pfizer order been delivered already? How much more are we expecting?
No, we're probably at just under half of the 40m order delivered. I'd imagine Pfizer would supply us from the US supply chain after Boris had a word with Joe and we redirect our lipid-layer exports to the US supply chain so they could ramp up manufacturing and avoid any slowdown in deliveries to the US.
I would like that too, but they haven't helped the Canadians out yet, hence why Canada is supplied with Pfizer via the EU.
It would have to be a quid pro quo deal so no net negative impact on US supply.
We should announce that we are to export a briefcase full of vaccines to somewhere like the Maldives, if only to make the EU rewrite their ban criteria out again.
But we have exported to Gibraltar and the Dependent Territories.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
I still don't see it as realistic for the EU to impose an export ban on the UK. Firstly it would need to be Belgium and that, as my colleague has pointed out to me, is very unlikely given the nature of Belgium's pharma industry, secondly the Pfizer production in the EU is critically dependent on the UK supply chain and I'm 100% certain that if the Belgians blocked exports to the UK the UK would in turn block exports to Belgium of those critical materials (the lipid layer which stabilises the mRNA) resulting in a manufacturing halt until a suitable replacement supplier could be found or Pfizer decamped to the UK or Switzerland to ensure contracts could continue to be filled without any unnecessary drama.
Is Pfizer still dependent on the UK supply chain? I've seen some apparently well-informed people suggesting that they are now able to produce the lipids in Germany. Could that be why they are now being more aggressive?
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
I still don't see it as realistic for the EU to impose an export ban on the UK. Firstly it would need to be Belgium and that, as my colleague has pointed out to me, is very unlikely given the nature of Belgium's pharma industry, secondly the Pfizer production in the EU is critically dependent on the UK supply chain and I'm 100% certain that if the Belgians blocked exports to the UK the UK would in turn block exports to Belgium of those critical materials (the lipid layer which stabilises the mRNA) resulting in a manufacturing halt until a suitable replacement supplier could be found or Pfizer decamped to the UK or Switzerland to ensure contracts could continue to be filled without any unnecessary drama.
Is Pfizer still dependent on the UK supply chain? I've seen some apparently well-informed people suggesting that they are now able to produce the lipids in Germany. Could that be why they are now being more aggressive?
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
That might all be true, but I think we are at cross-purposes. I was attempting to answer the question asked - about how people in the EU might feel about threats to block vaccine exports.
The only country that is threatening to block vaccine exports is the EU.
The AZ agreement signed with the EU does not include the US as a source of the vaccine and that is seemingly what they are asking for.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
Brits have so far proved to be pretty resilient (unlike the French) to vaccine misinformation nonsense.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
There’s still this misapprehension that the UK *government* is blocking vaccine exports, even after the EU themselves have conceded there’s no such ban in place.
That's a deliberate lie, to shore up a dishonest position.
We should announce that we are to export a briefcase full of vaccines to somewhere like the Maldives, if only to make the EU rewrite their ban criteria out again.
But we have exported to Gibraltar and the Dependent Territories.
Indeed, but the EU won’t want to count those as exports.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
In fact, they have worse than no levers, as the production of vaccines in the EU is dependent on inputs from the UK.
We could cut EU vaccine manufacturing to zero, while still having enough vaccines for ourselves.
So, as seems to be the case throughout this debacle, the EU is fucking up its relations with neighbouring states for no benefit.
Just utterly baffling behaviour from a saving lives perspective. A decent few Irish friends of mine are buying the line though, so they may be judging that the political gains (or limiting of losses) are worth the lives they're being bought with.
The Scottish government couldn't run a whelk store. The idea that they think they can run a railway is, well, alarming.
Only certified members of the SNP get to use the trains?
More likely they will be issued with a Freedom pass.
The going rate for a bit of SNP intervention in our economy is about £30m of taxpayers money (see Ferguson, Prestwick, Bifab) down the drain but we will be lucky if that keeps a railway going for more than a couple of months.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
You stop all 1st jabs, and resource the 2nds from an alternative supplier base where you don't have sufficient already in stock.
I don't know how many does we have in stock nor how many Pfizer ones are outstanding for 2nd doses but it's not enough of a big deal to make us do anything different.
Edit: I see we could possibly mix the seconds like the USA do too.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
Hasn't the bulk of the UK's Pfizer order been delivered already? How much more are we expecting?
No, we're probably at just under half of the 40m order delivered. I'd imagine Pfizer would supply us from the US supply chain after Boris had a word with Joe and we redirect our lipid-layer exports to the US supply chain so they could ramp up manufacturing and avoid any slowdown in deliveries to the US.
I would like that too, but they haven't helped the Canadians out yet, hence why Canada is supplied with Pfizer via the EU.
I think that's because the US manufacturing is rate limited by the amount of the lipid-layer that Pfizer has been able to source, they said months ago that the US government would need to help it secure more to increase the manufacturing capacity. I'm almost certain that if Boris had a short conversation with Joe and offered to eliminate that bottleneck in manufacturing capacity the US would allow Pfizer to supply us with our remaining doses. Does fuck up the RoW supply a lot though as I don't think that would extend to many other countries, maybe only Israel and Canada.
Le Pen could win comfortably in the end. France has no clear path out of the pandemic, and Macron doesn't have the stomach to do what needs to be done (basically, make vaccines compulsory). They're in for a year of total chaos, and then Le Pen capitalises on that by smashing Macron to bits in the run-off. They really have to hope they find two candidates who can beat her in Round 1.
It's quite a scary thought that Le Pen has a very real chance of becoming the French president. I'm hoping that the French people will have a long hard think in the polling booth and hover over the Le Pen box rather than vote for her. It would be a real disaster for all of Europe for her to be in power.
Well, bright side. Maybe she'll stuff up France so badly that everyone else will have second thoughts about the far right. Like how the Greens have turned Brighton into a third world country so no one else is tempted to vote for them. Or how Brexit killed off all the other anti-EU movements, and the Commission is now working overtime to resuscitate their designated common enemy.
But, yes. That would still not be good. Le Pen may be mightier than the sword, but she is... unpleasant.
I think Le Pen (Jr) is a much less unpleasant than people think. She's a very different character to her father.
Or her niece (?)
Indeed.
I think the FN is a lot more "mainstream" than Salvini/Northern League in Italy. Indeed, I struggle to see them as very different from Forza Italia.
(Hence why a splattering of parties to the right of the FN have now emerged as Le Pen has abandoned large chunks of the traditional FN platform.)
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
I still don't see it as realistic for the EU to impose an export ban on the UK. Firstly it would need to be Belgium and that, as my colleague has pointed out to me, is very unlikely given the nature of Belgium's pharma industry, secondly the Pfizer production in the EU is critically dependent on the UK supply chain and I'm 100% certain that if the Belgians blocked exports to the UK the UK would in turn block exports to Belgium of those critical materials (the lipid layer which stabilises the mRNA) resulting in a manufacturing halt until a suitable replacement supplier could be found or Pfizer decamped to the UK or Switzerland to ensure contracts could continue to be filled without any unnecessary drama.
Is Pfizer still dependent on the UK supply chain? I've seen some apparently well-informed people suggesting that they are now able to produce the lipids in Germany. Could that be why they are now being more aggressive?
It would cut the rate at which they could produce by an absolutely gigantic number, Pfizer would simply be unable to procure a replacement supplier without having a 75-80% slowdown in manufacturing. It's genuinely a negative sum game and I just don't see Belgium going for it as it's their pharma industry the EU is pushing towards Switzerland and the UK.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
Brits have so far proved to be pretty resilient (unlike the French) to vaccine misinformation nonsense.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
I can see how you could mix two adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Sputnik (not least cause the latter might just be a stolen version of the former)
And I can see how could mix two mRNA vaccines. But one of each? That surprises me. But I am not a virologist
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
In about 3 months the UK is going to be awash with surplus but paid for vaccines. I was all for these being made available to the EU in our own self interest given the quantity of travel and trade we have with them. I have changed my mind. I suspect that I am not alone.
Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier
Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?
They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.
Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness
But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).
So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
Only in the UK. That's not the way it's seen in Holland for example.
Do you have any examples of this last?
OK I'm a German citizen and a British citizen in Germany. I think she is making empty threats, probably, and is making herself look stupid.
You might think it strange, that just when many European governments are showing that they are less competent than the EU is at vaccinating people, why would she remind everyone of how crap the EU has been? I suspect that it is maybe mainly for German consumption. The CDU just did quite badly in state elections, and might well lose power in the Autumn (they certainly deserve to), so shifting attention back onto the EU makes sense for a CDU politician.
But also, if as a thought experiment you tried to imagine the exact reverse situation: that the EU had put in the early investment, and managed to get contracts signed that made all the vaccine produced in the EU stay in the EU PLUS a chunk of the vaccine produced in the UK also got exported to the EU, and deaths were rising fast in the unvaccinated UK population, what would the UK tabloid headlines say about millions of doses being exported to the EU while promised UK deliveries were cut? How would people feel? My guess is there would be a lot more anger about it being unfair than I see here - which I haven't heard at all from the people around me. People are mainly frustrated with the German government (me too). Of course partly I guess this is because people can do the maths: 10 million doses is a lot for 60 million people, but isn't going to transform the vaccination rollout for 400 million. But it may be that the idea of stopping vaccines leaving the EU when they are needed here is quite a popular idea.
I think the moment this happened the government would have paid AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and others literally whatever was necessary to get UK manufacturing up and running for end Q1 and early Q2 delivery. Ultimately these are all private companies and if the UK took the "let's be a purchaser rather than a partner" approach of the EU to our scheme then we'd have had to very quickly change it to "fuck we need to become a partner" very early on in January as Merck or whoever Oxford signed a deal with were prevented from exporting doses reserved by the US government.
Maybe, but you didn't indulge me by the thought experiment of imagining the exact reverse of the current situation! Which might for might not help people imagine how some people on the continent might feel about stopping vaccine exports, which was kind of the point of the counterfactual.
I did, as I said I think in that situation the government would simply pay its way out of the shit it got itself into, much like it did with PPE earlier in 2020. I think Rishi would have had another "whatever it takes" press conference with Boris and they would have proceeded to pay every single major vaccine producer to set up in the UK and deliver doses.
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
That might all be true, but I think we are at cross-purposes. I was attempting to answer the question asked - about how people in the EU might feel about threats to block vaccine exports.
The only country that is threatening to block vaccine exports is the EU.
The AZ agreement signed with the EU does not include the US as a source of the vaccine and that is seemingly what they are asking for.
I guess it's bad taste to re-post one's own posts - but here's one of mine from right back in April:
"Even if a vaccine is found, it will likely not be anywhere near 100% effective. Also, administering it to the global population would be problematic to say the least. From the availability and sheer quantity of the "stuff" that makes the vaccine, to questions about who delivers it, which nations get it first, and which groups of people within each nation gets it first.
Geopolitically, the Chinese, Russians and Americans (at least) will try to buy up availability en masse. Cold or even hot wars could be fought over this."
The Scottish government couldn't run a whelk store. The idea that they think they can run a railway is, well, alarming.
The Scottish government won't be running a railway.
1 Successive private operators have screwed it up - National Express then First Group. And now Abellio where the Dutch taxpayer is no longer willing to subsidise Scottish trains 2 The Abellio franchise was announced in 2019 as terminating 3 years early in 2022 - this is the point where the franchisee cannot meet the additional "cap and collar" payments required 3 Like most of the rest of the former rail franchises during Covid it cannot continue with minimal fares, so it is ending now and being replaced by an Abellio-run management concession until 2022 4 Like most of the rest of the former rail franchises it will then be "nationalised". Which means it will be run by the Operator of Last Resort - a Limited company that in Scotland will be wholly owned by Transport Scotland as opposed to the English version which is wholly owned by the DfT 5 As with the English version this "nationalised" operator is a private sector consortium of Arup, Ernst & Young and SNC Lavalin Rail 6 As with other OLR operations the existing management largely stick around, just with new bosses.
Events in the last 5 days aren't looking coincidental anymore. What Paris & Berlin, supported by some of their own in Brussels are thinking is anyone's guess but they've trashed the vaccine that they seem desperately to want.
It's like loudly declaring to someone you aren't interested in them in the hope they try really hard to make you interested. Are they really that jealous?
There are specific AZN subcontractor production lines in continental Europe with a focus on supply for the EU. Its not the UKs fault that they cant sort their shit out.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
Brits have so far proved to be pretty resilient (unlike the French) to vaccine misinformation nonsense.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
I can see how you could mix two adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Sputnik (not least cause the latter might just be a stolen version of the former)
And I can see how could mix two mRNA vaccines. But one of each? That surprises me. But I am not a virologist
It will be fine. It's just about priming the immune system. And the more ways you show it something that looks like the spike protein, the better.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
Brits have so far proved to be pretty resilient (unlike the French) to vaccine misinformation nonsense.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
I can see how you could mix two adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Sputnik (not least cause the latter might just be a stolen version of the former)
And I can see how could mix two mRNA vaccines. But one of each? That surprises me. But I am not a virologist
The initial testing in mice showed that the immune response from the mixed dose (AZ/Pfizer or the other way around) with a 4 week gap resulted in better modelled efficacy than two doses of Pfizer with a 4 week gap. UCL is running a human trial on it and participants are currently receiving their second doses, we should have the initial results from that in just a couple of weeks as it's single blind and the efficacy is going to be modelled from antibody and t-cell data.
Has Dave "Keating" worked out what the second proposal actually entails?
It is the EU stopping exports of vaccines to us, unless the UK deliberately slows down it's vaccine roll out, by redirecting supplies of AZ, meant for the UK, to the EU: thus depleting the UK stock. These supplies were paid for by British taxpayers, developed by a part British company, and lawfully contracted in a clever way by the British government.
It means the UK inflicting unnecessary death and disease on Britons, to please the EU, and help them hide their mistakes
No UK government could ever do this, and survive, they'd get lynched (maybe literally). So if Dave is right, the EU is about to ask for something it must know is impossible. It is a threat with no purpose, tho I suppose when the UK refuses they might feel better about stopping Pfizer deliveries to us
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
Brits have so far proved to be pretty resilient (unlike the French) to vaccine misinformation nonsense.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
I can see how you could mix two adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Sputnik (not least cause the latter might just be a stolen version of the former)
And I can see how could mix two mRNA vaccines. But one of each? That surprises me. But I am not a virologist
They all do one thing - present antigen (a segment of the spike protein that binds to the human cell) to provoke an adaptive immune response in the body. It is just how they do that that differs: 1. viral vector vaccines insert DNA into the human cell to create the mRNA that instructs the cell to produce the protein 2. mRNA vaccines cut out one step and supply the cell with the mRNA to instruct protein production 3. protein vaccines cut out another step, by directly supplying the protein.
So yes, in theory, all three should be compatible and even complementary, with the understanding the biological systems are complex and can always surprise.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
In about 3 months the UK is going to be awash with surplus but paid for vaccines. I was all for these being made available to the EU in our own self interest given the quantity of travel and trade we have with them. I have changed my mind. I suspect that I am not alone.
The Continental System is back.
Last time round, countries that broke it got invaded.
"King Kong could walk arm in arm with Godzilla, followed by the Avengers, pursued by Thanos, with the heavenly host in attendance and playing the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Nicola Sturgeon would neither see nor hear it or be able to recall it the following day."
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
In about 3 months the UK is going to be awash with surplus but paid for vaccines. I was all for these being made available to the EU in our own self interest given the quantity of travel and trade we have with them. I have changed my mind. I suspect that I am not alone.
The Continental System is back.
Last time round, countries that broke it got invaded.
So it was a clumsy reply to a loaded question, rather than a pre-meditated statement she intended to make. That's not much of an excuse, mind; as a top-level politician, she should of course have seen how her answer would be reported.
Hmmm call me a bit cynical here but anyone else a little suspicious she had all the details of article 122 to hand when it hasn't been used for 50 years? It does sort of suggest some reading up on it has occurred.
I've been going round Twitter, and - stupefyingly - it really does look like the EU might, possibly, do this
In about 3 months the UK is going to be awash with surplus but paid for vaccines. I was all for these being made available to the EU in our own self interest given the quantity of travel and trade we have with them. I have changed my mind. I suspect that I am not alone.
The Continental System is back.
Given the pissy behaviour on the EU side, this time it's more like the Incontinental System...
That Hartlepool CLP letter is brilliant. Firstly, congratulations on having a non-batshit Secretary. The previous one made Pidcock look sane. Secondly, congratulations on putting shenanigans on a fucking email for the world to see. Of COURSE it will get leaked you moron - all such "please rig the selection so we get Paul" discussions need to be voice only. They were back in 2017...
The Scottish government couldn't run a whelk store. The idea that they think they can run a railway is, well, alarming.
The Scottish government won't be running a railway.
1 Successive private operators have screwed it up - National Express then First Group. And now Abellio where the Dutch taxpayer is no longer willing to subsidise Scottish trains 2 The Abellio franchise was announced in 2019 as terminating 3 years early in 2022 - this is the point where the franchisee cannot meet the additional "cap and collar" payments required 3 Like most of the rest of the former rail franchises during Covid it cannot continue with minimal fares, so it is ending now and being replaced by an Abellio-run management concession until 2022 4 Like most of the rest of the former rail franchises it will then be "nationalised". Which means it will be run by the Operator of Last Resort - a Limited company that in Scotland will be wholly owned by Transport Scotland as opposed to the English version which is wholly owned by the DfT 5 As with the English version this "nationalised" operator is a private sector consortium of Arup, Ernst & Young and SNC Lavalin Rail 6 As with other OLR operations the existing management largely stick around, just with new bosses.
And the taxpayer underwrites the inevitable losses. Joy.
Same for the rest of the UK please. Privatisation has been a disaster.
This IS privatisation. The privatised operator is currently Abelio - a wholly state-owned company. Once nationalised the operator will be Arup/Ernst & Young/SNC-Lavalin who are wholly privately owned.
Terms like "nationalised" and "privatised" haven't meant anything with rail operations for years. Most of the private operators are nationalised rail companies.
The more ways you look at this, the dumber the EU's response becomes.
(1) They have no real hold over the UK, as the UK has ample orders of vaccines. Even if they did cut off Pfizer, the UK has Moderna and Novavax and J&J coming in the next couple of months, combined with ever greater production of AZ.
(2) Every threat of an export ban, makes it less likely that pharmaceutical companies will want to invest in the EU. And right now, you want pharmaceutical companies to be building vaccine production capacity.
(3) They're pissing off a whole bunch of allies.
(4) And they're not even ending up with any more vaccines (and quite possibly less) than they would have had before.
It's time for the EU Parliament to step up and depose UvdL.
If they block Pfizer we'll simply switch wholesale to Oxford/AZ or other vaccines.
They don't have any levers.
But what about Brits who've had one Pfizer jab but won't get the 2nd, if the EU blocks exports? Don't know if that's a possibility, but it would be a real mess, if so.
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
I suspect mixing vaccine types will result in increased efficacy rather than reduced.
Your suspicion may be right, however a lot of ordinary Brits will be fearfully alarmed that they are getting the "wrong" second dose. Many might refuse. Chaos.
Brits have so far proved to be pretty resilient (unlike the French) to vaccine misinformation nonsense.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
I can see how you could mix two adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Sputnik (not least cause the latter might just be a stolen version of the former)
And I can see how could mix two mRNA vaccines. But one of each? That surprises me. But I am not a virologist
They all do one thing - present antigen (a segment of the spike protein that binds to the human cell) to provoke an adaptive immune response in the body. It is just how they do that that differs: 1. viral vector vaccines insert DNA into the human cell to create the mRNA that instructs the cell to produce the protein 2. mRNA vaccines cut out one step and supply the cell with the mRNA to instruct protein production 3. protein vaccines cut out another step, by directly supplying the protein.
So yes, in theory, all three should be compatible and even complementary, with the understanding the biological systems are complex and can always surprise.
Cases still (just) trending down (despite tests still being through the roof):
Does anyone else think our testing is getting just a little out of hand? That's getting up to 1 in 6 of the entire adult population in 7 days.
It's farsically disproportionate at this point. People keep making the err case that if it's finding any cases it's worth it, but we're now running millions of tests which miss the majority of cases, spreading false confidence, whilst simultaneously generating thousands of false positives with very real costs to whole households locked up for 10 days.
It's just a shame deaths reporting is so lagged that it's going to take quite a while for many people to accept this is over and they can stop making utterly insane cost benefit decisions on the grounds of emergency.
The Scottish government couldn't run a whelk store. The idea that they think they can run a railway is, well, alarming.
Only certified members of the SNP get to use the trains?
More likely they will be issued with a Freedom pass.
The going rate for a bit of SNP intervention in our economy is about £30m of taxpayers money (see Ferguson, Prestwick, Bifab) down the drain but we will be lucky if that keeps a railway going for more than a couple of months.
£30m?
£600m for the Fort William smelter.
"Critically the SNP failed to extract any guarantees from Mr. Gupta that he would actually build the factory. Instead Gupta used the Scottish Government guarantee to sell hundreds of millions of pounds of bonds, via the now bankrupt finance firm Greensill, to Swiss fund manager GAM. Were Gupta’s firm to default and the Scottish Government guarantee to be called in, the losses would come out of the UK government-funded Scottish capital budget – used primarily to build hospitals and schools."
"King Kong could walk arm in arm with Godzilla, followed by the Avengers, pursued by Thanos, with the heavenly host in attendance and playing the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Nicola Sturgeon would neither see nor hear it or be able to recall it the following day."
Not quite true: she would brazenly lie that she had neither seen nor heard nor could recall it.
Sturgeon has become the most dishonest politician in the UK. Quite an award that, Nicola...
The more ways you look at this, the dumber the EU's response becomes.
(1) They have no real hold over the UK, as the UK has ample orders of vaccines. Even if they did cut off Pfizer, the UK has Moderna and Novavax and J&J coming in the next couple of months, combined with ever greater production of AZ.
(2) Every threat of an export ban, makes it less likely that pharmaceutical companies will want to invest in the EU. And right now, you want pharmaceutical companies to be building vaccine production capacity.
(3) They're pissing off a whole bunch of allies.
(4) And they're not even ending up with any more vaccines (and quite possibly less) than they would have had before.
It's time for the EU Parliament to step up and depose UvdL.
The more ways you look at this, the dumber the EU's response becomes.
(1) They have no real hold over the UK, as the UK has ample orders of vaccines. Even if they did cut off Pfizer, the UK has Moderna and Novavax and J&J coming in the next couple of months, combined with ever greater production of AZ.
(2) Every threat of an export ban, makes it less likely that pharmaceutical companies will want to invest in the EU. And right now, you want pharmaceutical companies to be building vaccine production capacity.
(3) They're pissing off a whole bunch of allies.
(4) And they're not even ending up with any more vaccines (and quite possibly less) than they would have had before.
It's time for the EU Parliament to step up and depose UvdL.
The problem goes deeper than UvdL. Lots of CDU politicians in Germany are egging her on to be even 'tougher'.
The more ways you look at this, the dumber the EU's response becomes.
(1) They have no real hold over the UK, as the UK has ample orders of vaccines. Even if they did cut off Pfizer, the UK has Moderna and Novavax and J&J coming in the next couple of months, combined with ever greater production of AZ.
(2) Every threat of an export ban, makes it less likely that pharmaceutical companies will want to invest in the EU. And right now, you want pharmaceutical companies to be building vaccine production capacity.
(3) They're pissing off a whole bunch of allies.
(4) And they're not even ending up with any more vaccines (and quite possibly less) than they would have had before.
It's time for the EU Parliament to step up and depose UvdL.
Comments
Ultimately these are private companies, and if the UK took a "purchaser" approach and endlessly haggled over the price while faster movers subsidised manufacturing and didn't quibble over a few dollars per dose the anger would be at the state for not properly procuring the vaccines in the first place. I'm sure there would be a few parochial UKIP types who would call for the government to block any exports, I'm also pretty sure those calls would be resisted and we'd instead spend the money on building up UK capacity.
The New UK Telecoms Security Bill is Starting to Look a Bit Ugly.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/03/the-new-uk-telecoms-security-bill-is-starting-to-look-a-bit-ugly.html
UK officially pissed off now
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1372212202829189125
What is IP is how you present and stabilize the mRNA or the protein sub-unit in your vaccine, to ensure it has a shelf-life and to amplify the immune response to the antigen in question.
With regard to Novavax and Moderna, their IP is firmly linked to these technologies, which is not COVID-specific and presumably has not been funded by governments in response to COVID (although I think Novavax has received a lot of funding through BARDA over the years since Amerithrax).
So, in short, I think you are wrong.
Which means they cannot now go and ask how big a cheque do you want as that would mean the dismal delivery so far could be blamed on their previous approach.
An Irish businesssman with a blue tick
https://twitter.com/KarlBrophy/status/1372200879726718979?s=20
https://twitter.com/KarlBrophy/status/1372200881194741762?s=20
EU correspondent for The Times
https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1370297195715567619?s=20
They don't have any levers.
If the UK had not done any of this it wouldn't make any more vaccines available to the EU.
I think the actions the UK government has taken on Covid vaccines is one of the best things any UK government has done in many years - and the contributions to Covax show that it's far from being selfish.
It's beyond pathetic for the EU to be acting as though we've somehow victimised them as a result.
https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1372175793514803200?s=20
Incredibly, there are still some FBPE types, admittedly the ultras, who are actually cheering on the EU, to punish Britain for "being selfish", ie looking after our citizens with good contracts with pharmaceutical companies
The word "traitor" was possibly bandied around too often during the Brexitref, but in this case, it applies. If you want the EU to stop "exporting" vaccines to us - vaccines we have lawfully purchased - you are hoping that Britons will get sick and die, in large numbers. That is treasonous.
We could cut EU vaccine manufacturing to zero, while still having enough vaccines for ourselves.
So, as seems to be the case throughout this debacle, the EU is fucking up its relations with neighbouring states for no benefit.
But we have exported to Gibraltar and the Dependent Territories.
The AZ agreement signed with the EU does not include the US as a source of the vaccine and that is seemingly what they are asking for.
Worth noting in the US, that they've approved mixing vaccines and it doesn't seem to have led to anybody panicing.
That's "partnership"?
The going rate for a bit of SNP intervention in our economy is about £30m of taxpayers money (see Ferguson, Prestwick, Bifab) down the drain but we will be lucky if that keeps a railway going for more than a couple of months.
I don't know how many does we have in stock nor how many Pfizer ones are outstanding for 2nd doses but it's not enough of a big deal to make us do anything different.
Edit: I see we could possibly mix the seconds like the USA do too.
I think the FN is a lot more "mainstream" than Salvini/Northern League in Italy. Indeed, I struggle to see them as very different from Forza Italia.
(Hence why a splattering of parties to the right of the FN have now emerged as Le Pen has abandoned large chunks of the traditional FN platform.)
Wasn’t it just the one Belgian factory’s output?
Can they be licenced at all, if AZ themselves don’t want to co-operate?
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1372219267173773335?s=20
And I can see how could mix two mRNA vaccines. But one of each? That surprises me. But I am not a virologist
"Even if a vaccine is found, it will likely not be anywhere near 100% effective. Also, administering it to the global population would be problematic to say the least. From the availability and sheer quantity of the "stuff" that makes the vaccine, to questions about who delivers it, which nations get it first, and which groups of people within each nation gets it first.
Geopolitically, the Chinese, Russians and Americans (at least) will try to buy up availability en masse. Cold or even hot wars could be fought over this."
1 Successive private operators have screwed it up - National Express then First Group. And now Abellio where the Dutch taxpayer is no longer willing to subsidise Scottish trains
2 The Abellio franchise was announced in 2019 as terminating 3 years early in 2022 - this is the point where the franchisee cannot meet the additional "cap and collar" payments required
3 Like most of the rest of the former rail franchises during Covid it cannot continue with minimal fares, so it is ending now and being replaced by an Abellio-run management concession until 2022
4 Like most of the rest of the former rail franchises it will then be "nationalised". Which means it will be run by the Operator of Last Resort - a Limited company that in Scotland will be wholly owned by Transport Scotland as opposed to the English version which is wholly owned by the DfT
5 As with the English version this "nationalised" operator is a private sector consortium of Arup, Ernst & Young and SNC Lavalin Rail
6 As with other OLR operations the existing management largely stick around, just with new bosses.
(Yes @Philip_Thompson you can post the xkcd link if you like)
It's like loudly declaring to someone you aren't interested in them in the hope they try really hard to make you interested. Are they really that jealous?
There are specific AZN subcontractor production lines in continental Europe with a focus on supply for the EU. Its not the UKs fault that they cant sort their shit out.
It is the EU stopping exports of vaccines to us, unless the UK deliberately slows down it's vaccine roll out, by redirecting supplies of AZ, meant for the UK, to the EU: thus depleting the UK stock. These supplies were paid for by British taxpayers, developed by a part British company, and lawfully contracted in a clever way by the British government.
It means the UK inflicting unnecessary death and disease on Britons, to please the EU, and help them hide their mistakes
No UK government could ever do this, and survive, they'd get lynched (maybe literally). So if Dave is right, the EU is about to ask for something it must know is impossible. It is a threat with no purpose, tho I suppose when the UK refuses they might feel better about stopping Pfizer deliveries to us
1. viral vector vaccines insert DNA into the human cell to create the mRNA that instructs the cell to produce the protein
2. mRNA vaccines cut out one step and supply the cell with the mRNA to instruct protein production
3. protein vaccines cut out another step, by directly supplying the protein.
So yes, in theory, all three should be compatible and even complementary, with the understanding the biological systems are complex and can always surprise.
Maybe, just maybe, we will manage to avoid cases turning positive on the dashboard.
"King Kong could walk arm in arm with Godzilla, followed by the Avengers, pursued by Thanos, with the heavenly host in attendance and playing the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Nicola Sturgeon would neither see nor hear it or be able to recall it the following day."
Same for the rest of the UK please. Privatisation has been a disaster.
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1372222512361246724
Terms like "nationalised" and "privatised" haven't meant anything with rail operations for years. Most of the private operators are nationalised rail companies.
(1) They have no real hold over the UK, as the UK has ample orders of vaccines. Even if they did cut off Pfizer, the UK has Moderna and Novavax and J&J coming in the next couple of months, combined with ever greater production of AZ.
(2) Every threat of an export ban, makes it less likely that pharmaceutical companies will want to invest in the EU. And right now, you want pharmaceutical companies to be building vaccine production capacity.
(3) They're pissing off a whole bunch of allies.
(4) And they're not even ending up with any more vaccines (and quite possibly less) than they would have had before.
It's time for the EU Parliament to step up and depose UvdL.
Vaccines really are amazing
It's just a shame deaths reporting is so lagged that it's going to take quite a while for many people to accept this is over and they can stop making utterly insane cost benefit decisions on the grounds of emergency.
£600m for the Fort William smelter.
"Critically the SNP failed to extract any guarantees from Mr. Gupta that he would actually build the factory. Instead Gupta used the Scottish Government guarantee to sell hundreds of millions of pounds of bonds, via the now bankrupt finance firm Greensill, to Swiss fund manager GAM. Were Gupta’s firm to default and the Scottish Government guarantee to be called in, the losses would come out of the UK government-funded Scottish capital budget – used primarily to build hospitals and schools."
https://www.thinkscotland.org/thinkbusiness/articles.html?read_full=14498
Sturgeon has become the most dishonest politician in the UK. Quite an award that, Nicola...
https://twitter.com/jonathanbrash?lang=en
https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1372172415007133697?s=20