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The Hartlepool by-election is a must win for both Johnson and Starmer – politicalbetting.com

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  • Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?

    They're not protesting.

    They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
    Protesting isn't the illegal activity. Gathering is.
    Hmm. I doubt any of these arrested "observers" will actually to have to pay their fines.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    Pulpstar said:

    Massive numbers from Drakeford again

    1st dose 2nd dose
    17,385 16,202

    700k UK equivalent

    Where are Wales getting all these shots from?
    When Professor Sarah Gilbert first stepped into the lab to experiment with a vaccine, Mark Drakeford was waiting for her with the formula.
    Not true. I have never seen Mark Drakeford in a lab coat!

    I have however seen Boris Johnson in his lab coat in the lab in Oxford on several occasions grafting away to find a vaccine for his grateful citizens. The camera doesn't lie!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?

    They're not protesting.

    They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
    Protesting isn't the illegal activity. Gathering is.
    Hmm. I doubt any of these arrested "observers" will actually to have to pay their fines.
    Neither do I. I was just pointing out that despite the high-vis jackets they have no special status in law.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?

    They're not protesting.

    They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
    Protesting isn't the illegal activity. Gathering is.
    Hmm. I doubt any of these arrested "observers" will actually to have to pay their fines.
    Neither do I. I was just pointing out that despite the high-vis jackets they have no special status in law.
    Fair. I mean I wasn't disputing that though. I was merely commenting that if none of these arrests lead to prosecutions, then what's the point of the arrests?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388

    Starmer's best PMQs.

    Law and order could be Labour's winner IMHO

    You could be right, but Starmer's attack line needs to be clear. He needs to focus on the incredibly poor detection/prosecution/conviction rates for crimes, particularly those against women, and particularly sexual assaults.

    The line from Boris at PMQs was that by opposing the police bill Labour is opposing tougher sentences. But tougher sentences mean nothing is there is nobody to sentence because they haven't been caught/prosecuted/convicted. The Tories will always win on tougher sentences. Labour needs to focus on the fact that the criminal justice system is so poor and slow that conviction rates are abysmal.

    What criminals really fear is getting caught, not tougher sentences. If there's little chance of them being caught, the sentences are a second order issue.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Trying to my best to correct Labour supporters deceit (or ignorance if we are being kind)

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1371920028682043392?s=21

    https://twitter.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1372093441543442433?s=21

    She was never a cabinet minister, she got as far as Sol Gen, which isn't a cabinet job.

    I mean if you're going to chastise others for deceit or ignorance.....

    Edit - Upon checking, she was retained as Victims' Commissioner by Boris Johnson, so it might be fair to say this government.

    I mean he could have replaced her.
    Ah ok yes, ‘a government minister’

    The broader point is if they have such a great case that the Conservatives are some kind of rapists friend, why the need for sly tricks that mislead? This government never appointed her, and she was a Labour Minister not just some independent QC.

    It makes their main claim seem like it could be just semantics as well, which would be a shame if they really do have a great point.

    Good to get the Labour POV anyway, thanks!
    Labour POV? I believe you've voted Labour more times than I ever have (which is none in a general election.)

    Last night I condemned the approach of Labour and the Tories on this matter.

    You must be dense or a troll, or just really embarrassed that I pointed you're doing exactly what you chastised Labour for doing.
    I thought you preferred Starmer’s Labour to Conservatives at the moment? Sorry if that’s not the case

    But no, I’m none of those things. I don’t really want to get involved in childish, petty tit for tat with you though, so try it on with someone else if you don’t mind.
    No, I don't prefer Starmer's Labour to anyone, as things stand I'm not voting for anyone at the next general election.

    Don't worry I won't engage in childish, petty tit for tat like writing an anonymous blog about you elsewhere.
    Haha oh yes the phantom bet!!! I had forgotten about that. You were very unlucky that one of my good mates was the odds compiler else you'd have gotten away with it - what were the chances?!

    Anyway, good to hear it. Chin chin!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021

    My god, just imagine for a minute the UK was still in the EU and having to.go along with dictator VDL threatening IP rights.

    Remember all that screeching about the UK could breach international law over the NI protocol as if the UK was proposing mass murder, that is like been caught speeding compared to what VDL has openly just proposed.

    You could argue that, if the UK was still in the EU, that it would be able to have a positive impact and prevent things like this, and the deal with China, from happening.

    Instead, we've lost our influence.
    Dream on....we would have signed up to all of this and now as part of the programme we would be being forced to share UK made vaccine supply.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Starmer's best PMQs.

    Law and order could be Labour's winner IMHO

    ... if only they didn't make it their invariable policy to side with the criminals, that is.
    Prison users is I think Labour's preferred term now
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1372129499559694341

    Where to start on this historically illiterate comment? Who funded Einstein's early work? The Patent Office?

    Hmm, I think he's probably right. There is definitely an unnecessary safety first approach, especially in the public sector.
    Newton would be governor of the Bank of England, Einstein would be at Imperial or Cambridge, and Turing CTO of a startup recently acquired by Softbank.
    Yes, and their discoveries and advancements would be lost to the UK economy and everything offshored.
    Newton wouldn't be governor of the Bank of England - too much a techie. He'd be some kind of tame quant, probably heading their Research Dept.
    Newton did have a job as Master of the Royal Mint...

    https://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/sir-isaac-newton/
    And done a fantastic job of it as well, counteracting currency fraud. So is it techy or creative to counteract fraud?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?

    They're not protesting.

    They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
    Protesting isn't the illegal activity. Gathering is.
    Hmm. I doubt any of these arrested "observers" will actually to have to pay their fines.
    Neither do I. I was just pointing out that despite the high-vis jackets they have no special status in law.
    Fair. I mean I wasn't disputing that though. I was merely commenting that if none of these arrests lead to prosecutions, then what's the point of the arrests?
    Ah, I had thought you were arguing they were working, and somehow exempt from the regulations. As for your second point, the police haven't exactly shown themselves to be acting sensibly these days, have they?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Looks like the US un-lockdown is in full swing....in the middle of a B.1.1.7 surge....

    https://twitter.com/petemuntean/status/1372155789259984899?s=20

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1371551733466341382
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1372163811122237443

    Looks like a sensible solution to the nurse pay row - a flat bonus is progressive as it's larger for the lower paid and doesn't creep up year on year as a pay rise would.
    Reckon NHS England might go for this.

    Boris will be bounced into something similar now, when it was bloody obvious this was a sensible solution, one off bonus plus some extra holiday.

    Instead Boris and co will do the usual, hold out, deny, deny, deny, U-turn.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Floater said:

    Starmer's best PMQs.

    Law and order could be Labour's winner IMHO

    ... if only they didn't make it their invariable policy to side with the criminals, that is.
    Prison users is I think Labour's preferred term now
    The 'legally-challenged' know that Labour will always have their backs...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    gealbhan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1372163811122237443

    Looks like a sensible solution to the nurse pay row - a flat bonus is progressive as it's larger for the lower paid and doesn't creep up year on year as a pay rise would.
    Reckon NHS England might go for this.

    It’s not progressive is it? It’s sneaky electioneering. It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    It is progressive, it's a larger % of your overall pay if you're a porter compared to a consultant. It's taxed the same as any other income - that applies to every bonus in the entire UK. One off bonuses for a profitable year are common in the private sector, the NHS doesn't make a profit in that sense so being busy with Covid is a close enough equivalent.
    Of course it's electioneering. Anything other than a CPI pay rise for the NHS (Which England's 1% is) is electioneering. Public sector pay is always electioneering, doctors couldn't believe the pay rises they got under Blair.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    tlg86 said:

    I don't get this. Right now the national governments are making the EU's fuck up look unimportant.
    Von der Leyen is upset that she isn't in responsible for the biggest mess and tries for the title?
    She only gets promoted if she is the worst fuck up in the room
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Selebian said:

    MrEd said:

    HYUFD said:
    I think that might shock all the twatterati who seem to think the Boris is akin to Mussolini.

    What is interesting is we are seeing quite a big variation in Labour's number across recent polls, anywhere from low to high 30s. Where as Tories are firmly 42-45 range.
    The Greens have been polling high in recent polls. Wonder whether there is a small but sizeable chunk of Labour's left who are disappointed with Starmer and have decamped over there. Long-term, that might be troublesome (thinking Greens-SPD in Germany)
    Anecdotally, when I was actually allowed into my university to talk to students and the like (e.g. 2015, 2017 and 2019 elections) the students and some of the post-docs had more enthusiasm for the Greens than for Labour. They would have mostly voted Green if the Greens had had a serious chance of winning the seat. FPTP makes it pretty unlikely that will happen though - the Greens would need to pick up some more seats to show it's possible and build momentum, then several university seats could potentially come into play.

    Almost wonder whether it's worth bumping Caroline Lucas over to target number two (wherever that is) and getting someone else to run in and hopefully* hold Brighton Pavilion.

    *losing that being, of course, the big risk
    They don't really have a target #2. It used to be Bristol West, but that now has a colossal Labour majority. Third was Holborn & St Pancras at one time, but that is Starmer's seat so out of range for the foreseeable future. Probably Isle of Wight is their best chance of a gain at the next election, but they'd be coming from third to overturn a 20k+ Tory lead.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford

    Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
    This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Looking at the headlines in papers - what century do we think it will be when rejoin will have a realistic chance?

    They fucked up big time and seem willing for our citizens to die to make up for it

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    The bigger issue would be the fall out for an industry whose whole business is based on IP to have a block of countries just break international law.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    PB Tories: we must praise Johnson for the vaccine rollout in England.

    PB Tories: Drakeford must not be praised for the vaccine rollout in Wales!

    Given that procurement is the biggest issue I'm not sure what credit the devolved administrations really get other than some organisation kudos. The big praise goes to the VTF and the UK government for approving it's creation and operating mandate. I have no doubt that Scotland and Wales would have chosen the EU scheme had they been given the option to do so.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    gealbhan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1372163811122237443

    Looks like a sensible solution to the nurse pay row - a flat bonus is progressive as it's larger for the lower paid and doesn't creep up year on year as a pay rise would.
    Reckon NHS England might go for this.

    It’s not progressive is it? It’s sneaky electioneering. It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    Yeah, they'd much rather get a real terms pay cut like those lucky English staff.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    gealbhan said:

    Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford

    Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
    This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
    Being threatened with an export ban makes it more likely?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2021

    Except the problem isn't IP or licensing production.

    It is getting production up to capacity at existing plants. Starting production at other plants would take a non-trivial amount of time.
    She's raving bonkers if she thinks compulsory licensing is going to help in the timescale required. Making these vaccines isn't just a case of grabbing the recipe and getting someone to crank out the doses.

    It really isn't hard to work out what the EU should do: stopping dissing the existing vaccines, stop attacking the pharma companies who are trying to ramp up production, stop blaming everyone else for the failure of the EU procurement, and ask the producers what help they need.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    Expropriate the means of production at the same time? I'm sure they won't be so stupid but then again the both of us were certain they wouldn't block any exports and yet here we are.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
    Not the best of time optic wise to have Von de Leyen in charge of Europe :smiley:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021
    Jezza standing up for the EU position ;-)

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1371911395395112965?s=19
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    DougSeal said:

    Looks like the US un-lockdown is in full swing....in the middle of a B.1.1.7 surge....

    https://twitter.com/petemuntean/status/1372155789259984899?s=20

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1371551733466341382
    Florida's new cases tracker through the winter looks remarkably like ours.

    Amazing that cases could have fallen like a stone without a draconian lockdown like ours.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RE: the "is it the EU" or "is it European Govts" argument. I think some people forget that the European Governments are a constituent part of the EU structure, through the Council of Ministers. If European Governments are taking absurd and damaging decisions (particularly when not on an isolated basis, as with the AZ suspensions) then it is rational for Brexiteers to raise it as a justification for being out. Given that one of the arguments was that the development of the EU structures and decision making increasingly reduced the powers of individual countries or small groups of countries to face down bad decisions through use of veto etc.

    So whilst the UK could have held out specifically on areas of health competence - it is reasonable to draw inferences for areas where they couldn't.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1372163811122237443

    Looks like a sensible solution to the nurse pay row - a flat bonus is progressive as it's larger for the lower paid and doesn't creep up year on year as a pay rise would.
    Reckon NHS England might go for this.

    Boris will be bounced into something similar now, when it was bloody obvious this was a sensible solution, one off bonus plus some extra holiday.

    Instead Boris and co will do the usual, hold out, deny, deny, deny, U-turn.
    NHS unions will oppose this stupid gimmicky idea and rightly stick out for the pay rise to fix the problem.

    Boris actually doesn’t have control of this, which is why he wisely avoided gimmicks. Government merely recommends. There’s too much known about the staff shortage/retention problem now for it not to be addressed.

    So you need to rethink this.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,431

    Except the problem isn't IP or licensing production.

    It is getting production up to capacity at existing plants. Starting production at other plants would take a non-trivial amount of time.
    She's raving bonkers if she thinks compulsory licensing is going to help in the timescale required. Making these vaccines isn't just a case of grabbing the recipe and getting someone to crank out the doses.

    It really isn't hard to work out what the EU should do: stopping dissing the existing vaccines, stop attacking the pharma companies who are trying to ramp up production, stop blaming everyone else for the failure of the EU procurement, and ask the producers what help they need.
    I'm struggling to work out why she is threatening the UK government over the action of a private company? What exactly has the UK done wrong here?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    Expropriate the means of production at the same time? I'm sure they won't be so stupid but then again the both of us were certain they wouldn't block any exports and yet here we are.
    But that would only make sense if they genuinely believed that AZ were deliberately holding back production in Europe. Otherwise appropriating the means of production just means producing the same (or less).

    Maybe they do believe that?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,234

    Floater said:

    Starmer's best PMQs.

    Law and order could be Labour's winner IMHO

    ... if only they didn't make it their invariable policy to side with the criminals, that is.
    Prison users is I think Labour's preferred term now
    The 'legally-challenged' know that Labour will always have their backs...
    Haven't watched it yet.

    Did they go with decriminalising rape? And did Boris read out the letter from Shadow Attorney General Emily Thornberry MP to Keir Starmer DPP complaining that he was weakening the rape prosecution process by reducing the role of specialist prosecutors?

    (That was in about 2012)
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    Except the problem isn't IP or licensing production.

    It is getting production up to capacity at existing plants. Starting production at other plants would take a non-trivial amount of time.
    She's raving bonkers if she thinks compulsory licensing is going to help in the timescale required. Making these vaccines isn't just a case of grabbing the recipe and getting someone to crank out the doses.

    It really isn't hard to work out what the EU should do: stopping dissing the existing vaccines, stop attacking the pharma companies who are trying to ramp up production, stop blaming everyone else for the failure of the EU procurement, and ask the producers what help they need.
    I'm struggling to work out why she is threatening the UK government over the action of a private company? What exactly has the UK done wrong here?
    Made them look incompetent. The EU believes it is all powerful and always right. The vaccines fiasco has become an existential crisis for them because now they're facing a local competitor which has the ability to move quickly and make the EU look like poor value for net contributor members.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Except the problem isn't IP or licensing production.

    It is getting production up to capacity at existing plants. Starting production at other plants would take a non-trivial amount of time.
    She's raving bonkers if she thinks compulsory licensing is going to help in the timescale required. Making these vaccines isn't just a case of grabbing the recipe and getting someone to crank out the doses.

    It really isn't hard to work out what the EU should do: stopping dissing the existing vaccines, stop attacking the pharma companies who are trying to ramp up production, stop blaming everyone else for the failure of the EU procurement, and ask the producers what help they need.
    I'm struggling to work out why she is threatening the UK government over the action of a private company? What exactly has the UK done wrong here?
    Got it right .... and left the EU
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    My god, just imagine for a minute the UK was still in the EU and having to.go along with dictator VDL threatening IP rights.

    Remember all that screeching about the UK could breach international law over the NI protocol as if the UK was proposing mass murder, that is like been caught speeding compared to what VDL has openly just proposed.

    You could argue that, if the UK was still in the EU, that it would be able to have a positive impact and prevent things like this, and the deal with China, from happening.

    Instead, we've lost our influence.
    Dream on....we would have signed up to all of this and now as part of the programme we would be being forced to share UK made vaccine supply.
    Blimey another one who has no confidence in the UK's ability to act as a sovereign nation.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Adonis rejoin campaign is dead on arrival...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    Floater said:

    Starmer's best PMQs.

    Law and order could be Labour's winner IMHO

    ... if only they didn't make it their invariable policy to side with the criminals, that is.
    Prison users is I think Labour's preferred term now
    The 'legally-challenged' know that Labour will always have their backs...
    You do make some silly comments.

    Lunchtime over, time to go back to work. Try it sometime.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Perhaps the UK Government should pass a law forcing all future exports of vaccines in this country to go to the poorest countries first, where they are most needed.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2021
    I have written a blog about ratings - please read, share your thoughts and arguments

    "The Optical Illusion of Net Ratings

    "The Absurdity"


    We asked a hundred people - "Who do you trust to buy a round for their friends in the pub, Boris Johnson or Sir Keir Starmer?" 42 said Boris, 24 Sir Keir, & the rest didn't know. They were asked who they thought would best organise a fun night out;. 42 said Boris, & 20 Sir Keir. In June 2020, another survey asked if either of the two they had personality - Boris won by 34 points, 64 to 30. When asked again in September Boris increased his lead to 42, (67-25). The most recent Opinium poll asked whether the respondents found Boris or Sir Keir likeable - given that people would rather go for a night out with Boris, the choice they think has bags more personalty of the two, it's not much of a surprise that he "got more likes" 43-38. So it would seem uncontroversial to say that Boris is the more likeable of the two men who want to be PM after the next GE. Unless..."


    http://aboutasfarasdelgados.blogspot.com/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    So, Scotland....about leaving the UK so you can tie yourselves to the frothing loons in Brussels.

    Ironically, the EU may do more to hurt the cause of independence than the whole of the government structure fawning to support Sturgeon, whatever the cost.....
  • Pulpstar said:

    gealbhan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1372163811122237443

    Looks like a sensible solution to the nurse pay row - a flat bonus is progressive as it's larger for the lower paid and doesn't creep up year on year as a pay rise would.
    Reckon NHS England might go for this.

    It’s not progressive is it? It’s sneaky electioneering. It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    It is progressive, it's a larger % of your overall pay if you're a porter compared to a consultant. It's taxed the same as any other income - that applies to every bonus in the entire UK. One off bonuses for a profitable year are common in the private sector, the NHS doesn't make a profit in that sense so being busy with Covid is a close enough equivalent.
    Of course it's electioneering. Anything other than a CPI pay rise for the NHS (Which England's 1% is) is electioneering. Public sector pay is always electioneering, doctors couldn't believe the pay rises they got under Blair.
    A CPI pay rise of 1% for NHS staff, but not for other public sector workers is still electioneering.
    Do NHS staff shop at separate stores to the rest of us?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Leon said:

    gealbhan said:

    Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford

    Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
    This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
    No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier

    Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?

    They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.

    Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited March 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    Massive numbers from Drakeford again

    1st dose 2nd dose
    17,385 16,202

    700k UK equivalent

    Where are Wales getting all these shots from?
    When Professor Sarah Gilbert first stepped into the lab to experiment with a vaccine, Mark Drakeford was waiting for her with the formula.
    Not true. I have never seen Mark Drakeford in a lab coat!

    I have however seen Boris Johnson in his lab coat in the lab in Oxford on several occasions grafting away to find a vaccine for his grateful citizens. The camera doesn't lie!
    isam said:



    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Trying to my best to correct Labour supporters deceit (or ignorance if we are being kind)

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1371920028682043392?s=21

    https://twitter.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1372093441543442433?s=21

    She was never a cabinet minister, she got as far as Sol Gen, which isn't a cabinet job.

    I mean if you're going to chastise others for deceit or ignorance.....

    Edit - Upon checking, she was retained as Victims' Commissioner by Boris Johnson, so it might be fair to say this government.

    I mean he could have replaced her.
    Ah ok yes, ‘a government minister’

    The broader point is if they have such a great case that the Conservatives are some kind of rapists friend, why the need for sly tricks that mislead? This government never appointed her, and she was a Labour Minister not just some independent QC.

    It makes their main claim seem like it could be just semantics as well, which would be a shame if they really do have a great point.

    Good to get the Labour POV anyway, thanks!
    Labour POV? I believe you've voted Labour more times than I ever have (which is none in a general election.)

    Last night I condemned the approach of Labour and the Tories on this matter.

    You must be dense or a troll, or just really embarrassed that I pointed you're doing exactly what you chastised Labour for doing.
    I thought you preferred Starmer’s Labour to Conservatives at the moment? Sorry if that’s not the case

    But no, I’m none of those things. I don’t really want to get involved in childish, petty tit for tat with you though, so try it on with someone else if you don’t mind.
    No, I don't prefer Starmer's Labour to anyone, as things stand I'm not voting for anyone at the next general election.

    Don't worry I won't engage in childish, petty tit for tat like writing an anonymous blog about you elsewhere.
    Haha oh yes the phantom bet!!! I had forgotten about that. You were very unlucky that one of my good mates was the odds compiler else you'd have gotten away with it - what were the chances?!

    Anyway, good to hear it. Chin chin!
    What is all this in reference to?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2021
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Maybe she's doing it for the people in Brussels and Paris and Berlin and Rome to show how much she is keen to fight for the EU.

    Edit: I mean it's bonkers squared but there must be some method in her madness and this would seem as likely as any.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    gealbhan said:

    Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
    Yes, anyone with more than one brain cell. We've developed multiple highly effective vaccines across the whole world in the private sector. That investment has meant countries are now nearing the end of the pandemic with far fewer deaths and economic scarring than relying on natural immunity. It's the private sector that has been instrumental in development of vaccines. Left to state vehicles we'd be stuffed.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    DougSeal said:

    Looks like the US un-lockdown is in full swing....in the middle of a B.1.1.7 surge....

    https://twitter.com/petemuntean/status/1372155789259984899?s=20

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1371551733466341382
    Florida's new cases tracker through the winter looks remarkably like ours.

    Amazing that cases could have fallen like a stone without a draconian lockdown like ours.
    So. What really causes a wave to kick off, and die out?

    Answer. Individuals, with individual DNA? It’s coming after some of us each time, not all of us?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    On PMQs, it seems a bit odd of Starmer to highlight the fact that he was the person in charge for five years of the DPP failing to get a grip on rape cases collapsing or being abandoned.

    I actually watched it and one on here reckons it was his best PMQ - if so I'd love to see the bad ones.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    MattW said:

    Floater said:

    Starmer's best PMQs.

    Law and order could be Labour's winner IMHO

    ... if only they didn't make it their invariable policy to side with the criminals, that is.
    Prison users is I think Labour's preferred term now
    The 'legally-challenged' know that Labour will always have their backs...
    Haven't watched it yet.

    Did they go with decriminalising rape? And did Boris read out the letter from Shadow Attorney General Emily Thornberry MP to Keir Starmer DPP complaining that he was weakening the rape prosecution process by reducing the role of specialist prosecutors?

    (That was in about 2012)
    Not using those exact words, but in essence. Interesting reminder about that letter - Boris should definitely keep a few nukes like it in his back pocket if Labour keeps pushing this shit.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Pulpstar said:

    Massive numbers from Drakeford again

    1st dose 2nd dose
    17,385 16,202

    700k UK equivalent

    Where are Wales getting all these shots from?
    When Professor Sarah Gilbert first stepped into the lab to experiment with a vaccine, Mark Drakeford was waiting for her with the formula.
    Not true. I have never seen Mark Drakeford in a lab coat!

    I have however seen Boris Johnson in his lab coat in the lab in Oxford on several occasions grafting away to find a vaccine for his grateful citizens. The camera doesn't lie!
    While Boris Johnson was indulging in self-promotion, Mark Drakeford
    isam said:



    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Trying to my best to correct Labour supporters deceit (or ignorance if we are being kind)

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1371920028682043392?s=21

    https://twitter.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1372093441543442433?s=21

    She was never a cabinet minister, she got as far as Sol Gen, which isn't a cabinet job.

    I mean if you're going to chastise others for deceit or ignorance.....

    Edit - Upon checking, she was retained as Victims' Commissioner by Boris Johnson, so it might be fair to say this government.

    I mean he could have replaced her.
    Ah ok yes, ‘a government minister’

    The broader point is if they have such a great case that the Conservatives are some kind of rapists friend, why the need for sly tricks that mislead? This government never appointed her, and she was a Labour Minister not just some independent QC.

    It makes their main claim seem like it could be just semantics as well, which would be a shame if they really do have a great point.

    Good to get the Labour POV anyway, thanks!
    Labour POV? I believe you've voted Labour more times than I ever have (which is none in a general election.)

    Last night I condemned the approach of Labour and the Tories on this matter.

    You must be dense or a troll, or just really embarrassed that I pointed you're doing exactly what you chastised Labour for doing.
    I thought you preferred Starmer’s Labour to Conservatives at the moment? Sorry if that’s not the case

    But no, I’m none of those things. I don’t really want to get involved in childish, petty tit for tat with you though, so try it on with someone else if you don’t mind.
    No, I don't prefer Starmer's Labour to anyone, as things stand I'm not voting for anyone at the next general election.

    Don't worry I won't engage in childish, petty tit for tat like writing an anonymous blog about you elsewhere.
    Haha oh yes the phantom bet!!! I had forgotten about that. You were very unlucky that one of my good mates was the odds compiler else you'd have gotten away with it - what were the chances?!

    Anyway, good to hear it. Chin chin!
    What is all this in reference to?
    Water under the bridge
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    MaxPB said:

    gealbhan said:

    Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
    Yes, anyone with more than one brain cell. We've developed multiple highly effective vaccines across the whole world in the private sector. That investment has meant countries are now nearing the end of the pandemic with far fewer deaths and economic scarring than relying on natural immunity. It's the private sector that has been instrumental in development of vaccines. Left to state vehicles we'd be stuffed.
    There was no tax payer money or state support?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    On PMQs, it seems a bit odd of Starmer to highlight the fact that he was the person in charge for five years of the DPP failing to get a grip on rape cases collapsing or being abandoned.

    Is his point not that it was his successor who made the situation immeasurably worse?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    IanB2 said:

    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.

    Does comedy Dave also write for CNN?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    gealbhan said:

    Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
    Um, sure. How do you expect anyone to sink millions into developing them in the first place if you won't let them get a return by licensing them afterwards?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Maybe she's doing it for the people in Brussels and Paris and Berlin and Rome to show how much she is keen to fight for the EU.
    Its becoming obvious that the ordinary people of Clacton and Sunderland, so reviled by an elitist class of their own fellow citizens, have dealt an overbearing superbloc a shattering blow.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Maybe she's doing it for the people in Brussels and Paris and Berlin and Rome to show how much she is keen to fight for the EU.

    Edit: I mean it's bonkers squared but there must be some method in her madness and this would seem as likely as any.
    There's clearly no method in the madness. Expropriating IP and production from pharma would be a huge retrograde step and destroy the European pharmaceuticals industry overnight. Would be great for the UK and Switzerland though as international companies escape the sinking ship.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    I wonder what Merkel thinks of VDL demanding seizing the means of production, as somebody who grew up in East Germany where that was a thing?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Maybe she's doing it for the people in Brussels and Paris and Berlin and Rome to show how much she is keen to fight for the EU.

    Edit: I mean it's bonkers squared but there must be some method in her madness and this would seem as likely as any.
    Alternatively, she is being guided by malevolent Cornish pixies whispering in her ear.

    Brexit-voting Cornish pixies, natch.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    IanB2 said:

    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.

    CNN in talking-absolute-shite shocker. Hold the front page!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Leon said:

    It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’

    See what?

    The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?

    We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    So, Pharmaceutical concerns in EU, fancy relocating?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    felix said:

    Leon said:

    gealbhan said:

    Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford

    Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
    This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
    No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier

    Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?

    They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.

    Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
    Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    IanB2 said:

    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.

    Yeah, I'm sure news of that protest was plastered all over the world's media.

    Oh, wait.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    IanB2 said:

    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.

    CNN in talking-absolute-shite shocker. Hold the front page!
    But they were correct about Trump?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,547
    edited March 2021
    Scott_xP said:
    A reminder that when two parties are in diametric opposition about facts or the merits of a case, while it is logically impossible for them both to be right it is often overlooked that it is logically possible for both to be wrong. This may bring comfort to those (the majority?) who dearly hope that both sides lose heavily.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    “Rejoin” just receded even further over the horizon:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1372174043823153156?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’

    See what?

    The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?

    We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
    What are you talking about, Belgium have only given first jabs to 7% of their population, no more than France.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2021
    Endillion said:

    gealbhan said:

    Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
    Um, sure. How do you expect anyone to sink millions into developing them in the first place if you won't let them get a return by licensing them afterwards?
    Isn’t the argument we are in bed with some who are good in lobby (with a price marked on bottom of politicians shoes) and get state support others don’t get?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited March 2021
    IanB2 said:

    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.

    I’m slightly skeptical that in the middle of a once-in-a-century pandemic, facing the greatest global crisis since World War 2, with economies crashing and nations reeling, everyone in the world is actually focused on a middle aged woman with a labradoodle and a Waitrose bag being mildly manhandled on Clapham Common
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Maybe she's doing it for the people in Brussels and Paris and Berlin and Rome to show how much she is keen to fight for the EU.

    Edit: I mean it's bonkers squared but there must be some method in her madness and this would seem as likely as any.
    There's clearly no method in the madness. Expropriating IP and production from pharma would be a huge retrograde step and destroy the European pharmaceuticals industry overnight. Would be great for the UK and Switzerland though as international companies escape the sinking ship.
    I blame Nigel Farage.

    His long-standing criticism of the EU were clearly far too mild. He should have gone for the throat.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,750

    DougSeal said:

    Looks like the US un-lockdown is in full swing....in the middle of a B.1.1.7 surge....

    https://twitter.com/petemuntean/status/1372155789259984899?s=20

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1371551733466341382
    Florida's new cases tracker through the winter looks remarkably like ours.

    Amazing that cases could have fallen like a stone without a draconian lockdown like ours.
    You might like to peruse the reports at https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/
    Overall, nothing like as big a drop in transit as here, but still big changes in things like workplaces and public transport.

    Different weather too, which may help - easier for people to be outside, to have plenty of ventilation etc.

    Chances are there's a variant on the lockdown here that could have been similarly effective, but we still probably don't know exactly what.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Does anyone have a sense of what the EU is actually trying to achieve? I like to think people act rationally, but I just can’t see it. Irritating your western allies and scaring away the pharmaceutical companies at the very time you should realise how much you need them? Madness.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’

    See what?

    The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?

    We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
    And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    If the EU want more vaccines produced in the UK, shouldn't they show an interest in ordering some of the ones set to come on line later in the year?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Charlotte Rampling is, of course, a shoe-in to play UvdL in Peter Morgan's upcoming drama about the epidemic.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    IanB2 said:

    London (CNN) Britain's overseas reputation has been tarnished lately, and some of it is entirely self-inflicted.

    From images of burly police officers wrestling women to the ground to claims of racism in the royal family, accusations of Brexit rule-breaking and even a coronavirus variant first detected in England and now spreading across the globe, the United Kingdom is coming up tainted in the court of international opinion.

    The latest crisis came this weekend, when images of a crackdown on a peaceful London vigil for a murdered woman were beamed around the world. A viral photo of woman prostrate on the ground, police officers astride her back, is never a good look for any democracy, but this latest shocker is just one in an increasing accumulation of PR own goals the UK is belting into its own net, just as the country chases global partners for post-Brexit trade.

    For a nation that revels in reminiscing of bygone better days, the words of one such anthem, "Rule Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves," resonates less these days of riding a mighty swell and more of being lashed by misfortune and misjudgement.

    Protests are different to the USA where someone would have doubtlessly been shot.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Except the problem isn't IP or licensing production.

    It is getting production up to capacity at existing plants. Starting production at other plants would take a non-trivial amount of time.
    She's raving bonkers if she thinks compulsory licensing is going to help in the timescale required. Making these vaccines isn't just a case of grabbing the recipe and getting someone to crank out the doses.

    It really isn't hard to work out what the EU should do: stopping dissing the existing vaccines, stop attacking the pharma companies who are trying to ramp up production, stop blaming everyone else for the failure of the EU procurement, and ask the producers what help they need.
    But I see the bind she's in. If they admit they've screwed up monumentally, how can they claim that "more Europe" is the solution to the next problem, whatever it is?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    If AZ are making, distributing and selling their vaccine at cost, how damaging is it to them to have the EU steal the IP on it and "threaten" to start making it themselves?

    And if they did, presumably they would be fully within their rights to treat it as a breach of contract and cease distribution within the EU. Which would then take months for other manufacturers to replace the lost supplies.

    The EU have ordered vaccines many times over what they currently require. There is no long term shortage due to monopolistic practices. Just short term supply problems. The creation of alternative manufacturing sites for which would do absolutely nothing to solve.

    Even if they "steal the IP", what are they going to do?

    They can't just open up a manufacturing facility in an empty warehouse. It would probably take 6 months at the very least for an experienced biopharmaceutical company to validate their production and ramp up.

    It's a completely worthless threat.
    It’s not completely worthless as a threat. It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’
    Adonis rejoin campaign is dead on arrival...
    He's gone quiet too. Isn't there an enterprising young journo that could door-step him?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,212
    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    Which would be what ?

    Presumably they were walking around as individuals, not part of a crowd.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Selebian said:

    DougSeal said:

    Looks like the US un-lockdown is in full swing....in the middle of a B.1.1.7 surge....

    https://twitter.com/petemuntean/status/1372155789259984899?s=20

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1371551733466341382
    Florida's new cases tracker through the winter looks remarkably like ours.

    Amazing that cases could have fallen like a stone without a draconian lockdown like ours.
    You might like to peruse the reports at https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/
    Overall, nothing like as big a drop in transit as here, but still big changes in things like workplaces and public transport.

    Different weather too, which may help - easier for people to be outside, to have plenty of ventilation etc.

    Chances are there's a variant on the lockdown here that could have been similarly effective, but we still probably don't know exactly what.
    As I said, a caller this morning to LBC from Italy bemoaning the fact that they were going in to lockdown whereby shops and bars would be closed (save for takeaways).

    Which we have had for the past three months and counting.

    Oh and btw some cracking posts from you earlier today.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    “Rejoin” just receded even further over the horizon:

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1372174043823153156?s=20

    Ursula eloquently making the case for upgrading our nuclear stockpile there...
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited March 2021
    gealbhan said:

    Endillion said:

    gealbhan said:

    Who actually supports a big pharma cartel/closed shop on producing vaccines? Anyone care to speak up and defend it?
    Um, sure. How do you expect anyone to sink millions into developing them in the first place if you won't let them get a return by licensing them afterwards?
    Isn’t the argument we are in bed with some who are good in lobby (with a price marked on bottom of politicians shoes) and get state support others don’t get?
    You tell me; it's your argument.

    But that sounds much more like a US concern than a UK one. And if your main concern is that we're favouring companies with good PR/GR departments over those with bad ones, my response is a big fat "so what?".
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,932
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    Which would be what ?

    Presumably they were walking around as individuals, not part of a crowd.
    Gathering. Unless you are arguing they randomly bumped into the rest of the protestors.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    It’s worth quite a lot to everyone who voted Leave, who can now point at Brussels (and Paris, Berlin and Rome) and say ‘See?!’

    See what?

    The sovereign Belgian Government vaccinating their population while the Sovereign Government of Germany and France dick about?

    We can, and could, and did, vaccinate, with and without the EU.
    And here he is! The last Remainer in Britain
    The EU has always possessed some bonkers rhetoric. Why would that change how we went about our business one way or the other in the UK? Or are you another one with such little confidence in the UK that you think it would have caved instantly to the EU's desires?

    Don't forget the VTF was set up while we were nominally EU members.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:
    They are also subject to the Covid laws.....
    Being outside for work or "recreation" is now allowed whilst maintaining social distancing. It's probably arguable that what they're doing is within the Covid laws...
    From what I've read legal observers have no special status whatsoever. To the law they are just members of the public, in this case engaging in a proscribed activity.
    What's the proscribed activity? Protesting?

    They're not protesting.

    They're allowed to be outside for recreation. You could probably argue what they are doing is "recreation", perhaps.
    I thought you could still only meet outside with one other person not from your "bubble"?

    Or are "all decent people who just want to go outside and gather to antagonise the police" a single bubble?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    gealbhan said:

    Labour in Wales doing a sensible job on the pay rise, well done Mark Drakeford

    Nonsense! It’s heavily taxed so they won’t get what everyone thinks they are getting, it’s a one off so poor substitute for pay rise. It should be rightly rejected as taking the p***
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The UK must have received the majority of its Pfizer order at this point, so less dependent on that one supplier.
    The EU is close to declaring war. An act of illegal and blatant hostility that will kill Britons, if it happens. How is that different from a military attack?
    This actually makes it more possible not impossible Boris shares with EU. Boris will share vaccine with EU country before Easter Monday. We are entering the practicalities of it now.
    No, that will now look like we are yielding to psychotic EU bullying. This makes it harder for the UK to be generous. Not easier

    Can we hear from all the people yesterday who were saying ‘oh but this madness is nothing to do with the EU itself, it is the national EU governments’?

    They are oddly quiet. Perhaps there is not a Remainer left in the country.

    Quite where are Kamski and Scott_P and Roger when we could all do with a good laugh.....
    Just out of interest, as an EU resident, presumably waiting for a vaccine, when you hear her say this stuff do you think oh that's bonkers I hope that doesn't happen, or do you think well done UvdL get in?
    Yes, it might play well for a few days with some EU citizens. So I agree, there is method in the madness

    But, it is still madness. It will unravel in multiple ways. eg if it happens it breaks global supply chains and everyone suffers, because there is no way the USA or UK can yield to unlawful, hostile threats. There are many other dire consequences should they do this (once you think it through).

    So it probably won’t happen, and it is just bluster, and it just makes the EU look insane, incompetent and ridiculous. Again.
This discussion has been closed.