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Jupiter in eclipse? Macron looks a very weak odds-on favourite – politicalbetting.com

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  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?

    Pillock.
    Malcy wasn't talking about the Scots specifically, as is quite clear from his posting (he plainly references the 100K dead landmark of this week, which applies to the UK). It's you who introduced the notion that he was, and got all anti-Scottish Indy about it. I'm not the pillock.
  • felix said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    The UK govt is completely confident the deliveries will come through. The EU rules, drafted yesterday, say the deliveries will come through. The deliveries will come!

    That the press get mileage out of pretending they won't is hardly surprising. For once it is PM Johnson who is the grown up in the room......
    It still puts Government in a bind though. Do you have your vaccines roll-out predicated on the basis that the EU will now do the decent thing and let the Pfizer deliveries through - and keep on with the 12 weeks gap between doses? The risk is the Pfizer doesn't arrive - and you have to rejab a couple of million who have had one dose of Pfizer already with something else. Which is a couple of million folk pushed further down the chain.

    Not a doctor or a scientist, but there has been plenty of speculation that a mix of two jabs is better than two jabs of the same one anyway.

    However, the govt will press ahead with first Pfizer jabs, as Pfizer deliveries will continue to arrive. Remember we will be a big vaccine exporter, the EU are simply not going to stop 7m Pfizer jabs when we will be net exporting hundreds of millions of jabs later in the year.
    You are basing this on the EU acting rationally....this week they certainly haven't.
    They have acted politically. They have not banned a single vaccine being exported to the UK, and the UK govt are confident that they won't do. For once, trust what the PM is saying!
    Smashing through the Good Friday Agreement without consulting the parties involved is just politics in your world. Okeeey! Rational is as rational does I think.
    I completely condemn the EU actions this week as I did the Internal Markets Bill. Both were politics rather than changing trade realities though, we were never going to no deal and the EU are not going to block our vaccines.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!

    But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    edited January 2021

    Sir John Bell, a professor who is part of the Oxford University vaccine team, has accused French president Emmanuel Macron of "demand management" over his claims the AstraZeneca vaccine is "quasi-ineffective" for the over-65s.

    The professor told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I'm not sure where he got that from."

    He acknowledged an original study only had small numbers of elderly people, with many shielding themselves from the pandemic, but added: "The numbers still pointed toward a very highly effective vaccine but the numbers were small, in fairness, we always accepted that."

    But he said other studies proved "elderly people responded just as well in other age groups" and that "there's really persuasive evidence that this is a protective vaccine in those populations".

    "I suspect this is a bit of demand management from Mr Macron," he added. Pressed if he thinks he is trying to reduce demand, Sir John said: "Well, if he didn't have any vaccine the best thing you could do is reduce demand."

    To believe what the German press, German regulators, and Macron seem to believe you essentially have to think that either the vaccine or virus is asking a person if they receive a pension. It is a ludicrous misreading of the data. Nor does it accord with what we expect from vaccines normally, with what has been seen with similar immune repsonses for the other vaccines, or what we are seeing in antibody data, or tentatively in infection and hospitalisation data.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.

    However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
    I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
    Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
    Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
    We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
    I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
  • EU 'bureaucracy' sees fish rejected at border because of forms filled out in wrong colour

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/29/eu-bureaucracy-sees-fish-rejected-border-forms-filled-wrong/
  • I can't believe the whole GameStonk thing is still going on....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?

    Pillock.
    Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.

    Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.

    However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
    I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
    Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
    Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
    We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
    I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
    You weren't on my "naughty list".
  • Dura_Ace said:

    EU 'bureaucracy' sees fish rejected at border because of forms filled out in wrong colour

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/29/eu-bureaucracy-sees-fish-rejected-border-forms-filled-wrong/

    𝘈𝘍𝘛𝘌𝘙 𝘉𝘙𝘌𝘟𝘐𝘛 𝘞𝘌 𝘞𝘖𝘕'𝘛 𝘉𝘌 𝘈𝘉𝘓𝘌 𝘛𝘖 𝘉𝘓𝘈𝘔𝘌 𝘛𝘏𝘌 𝘌𝘜 𝘍𝘖𝘙 𝘖𝘜𝘙 𝘗𝘙𝘖𝘉𝘓𝘌𝘔𝘚
    Cute the way you turn the Brexit arguments against us.

    Are you actually saying that the EU just is so mega powerful that we'll essentially be in it for ever, even after leaving, so what was the point?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    I think you are right - the question then becomes will the EU actually follow through on it's actions or not.

    But if the EU does block a delivery it really wouldn't surprise me if Boris

    1) Announced the issue with regret
    2) a while later extend the lockdown further due to vaccination issues

    and let the papers put 2 and 2 together as to where the blame was.
    He's already pre-emptively extended lockdown - frankly when the stats were looking so good that one can only assume he is determined to be exceptionally cautious (/reckless if you include the economy as a consideration) and saw it was going to be very hard to extend if he waited another 2 weeks for the current trend to continue.
    The stats aren't looking so good yet.

    The daily death count was 1245 on the 29th, and the 7 day daily average is around the same.

    That's a very thin basis to unlock anything.
  • Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?

    Pillock.
    Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.

    Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
    Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Scottish independence?
    Northern Irish cessation?

    It’s just possible I was being a bit facetious, and having a laugh at the hyperbole in “won’t survive”.

    As often happens, there’s an underlying assumption that a plurality in England or Wales even cares whether Scotland or NI stay in the Union.
    That's true - and Northern Ireland might very well go eventually, regardless of the EU situation, because of a combination of demographic change and its special status under international treaty.

    HOWEVER - what nobody writing here seems to have appreciated yet, although you can be bloody certain that the First Minister of Scotland has, is that the worse relations between the UK and the EU become, the more remote the prospect of Scottish independence becomes also.

    It's quite simple really. When you get down to brass tacks, the sole purpose of the Act of Union was to strip Scotland of its ability to make common cause with a hostile foreign power and surround England. The rest of it - including free trade, the equivalent money, and unrestricted access to the colonies - was just about providing generous enough terms and guarantees to persuade the Scottish Parliament to accept. Thus, each time the EU becomes that little bit less friendly, the greater the incentive becomes for Westminster to hold on to Scotland at all costs.

    Watch what happens over the next few years. If the UK-EU relationship continues along the trajectory established by this month's disastrous events then it's very easy to envision an end point at which, after a report from a constitutional commission or some such thing, Westminster passes legislation that creates a federal or quasi-federal system - probably entailing yet more devolution, especially with respect to tax-raising powers - but which also declares Great Britain a perpetual union and rules secession to be illegal forever.

    Going right back to pre-devolution days and the "Independence in Europe" campaign, the vision of the independence movement has always been of Scotland and the remainder of the UK sitting peaceably side by side within a wider community of friendly powers. If most of the other powers cease to be friendly then that vision evaporates. It's that simple.
    Yes, there are increasing signs that Brexit will be quite a hostile one, with the Brexiteers eager to deflect any criticism of their pet project. The EU meanwhile is demonstrating what third country status means, and has no interest in reversing Brexit. They are glad to be rid of us, and I don't blame them.

    While I think Scotland would have quite a lot to deal with on a hostile border at Gretna Green, I think the Scottish attitude to the Auld Alliance is quite different to the English one.

    There was a poll too this week that showed a Welsh majority for Rejoin, and that would have even more complex problems.

    The problem is that Brexit was always a project of English Nationalism, so as inevitably the sunlight uplands are shown to be barren, inevitably the English government will be blamed. That is why the United Kingdom is doomed. It is only a matter of when and how now.
    Desperate stuff.

    The last 48 hours must have hit you hard.
    There was a case to be made for the UK to leave the EU and that could have been made civilly, but but for years UKIP, the Tory right and their media cheerleaders chose to vilify and insult the EU, spreading misinformation and lies in the process.

    It is the manner in which the Brexiteers won that has resulted in far more hostility than was necessary from the other 27 members. Bashing Britain now plays well all over the rest of Europe as the vaccination row has shown.

    We are where we are and I doubt the EU would ever accept us rejoining even if we were ever to ask. For better or worse we have burnt our bridges. Perhaps that was the intention all along.
  • I've realised that Remainiac is no longer a strong enough word to describe those defending fruit loop Macron's pronouncements.

    They seem to be a subset of Remainiacs, but it's now a psychosis.

    I'll have to work on a new word.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    Sir John Bell, a professor who is part of the Oxford University vaccine team, has accused French president Emmanuel Macron of "demand management" over his claims the AstraZeneca vaccine is "quasi-ineffective" for the over-65s.

    The professor told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I'm not sure where he got that from."

    He acknowledged an original study only had small numbers of elderly people, with many shielding themselves from the pandemic, but added: "The numbers still pointed toward a very highly effective vaccine but the numbers were small, in fairness, we always accepted that."

    But he said other studies proved "elderly people responded just as well in other age groups" and that "there's really persuasive evidence that this is a protective vaccine in those populations".

    "I suspect this is a bit of demand management from Mr Macron," he added. Pressed if he thinks he is trying to reduce demand, Sir John said: "Well, if he didn't have any vaccine the best thing you could do is reduce demand."

    A fable of Aesop comes to mind, involving foxes and tails.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    MattW said:

    maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    I think you are right - the question then becomes will the EU actually follow through on it's actions or not.

    But if the EU does block a delivery it really wouldn't surprise me if Boris

    1) Announced the issue with regret
    2) a while later extend the lockdown further due to vaccination issues

    and let the papers put 2 and 2 together as to where the blame was.
    He's already pre-emptively extended lockdown - frankly when the stats were looking so good that one can only assume he is determined to be exceptionally cautious (/reckless if you include the economy as a consideration) and saw it was going to be very hard to extend if he waited another 2 weeks for the current trend to continue.
    The stats aren't looking so good yet.

    The daily death count was 1245 on the 29th, and the 7 day daily average is around the same.

    That's a very thin basis to unlock anything.
    Also R... R is below 1 in *most* areas, but not vastly. Given the stability of the numbers, it strongly suggests that this is R we get from the current lockdown. Which in turn means that any lifting of the lockdown will bring R back above 1.

    R from hospitalisation

    image

    R from cases

    image
    image
  • Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!

    But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
    Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,152
    edited January 2021
    Just catching up with developments,

    So the mighty, all powerful EU have made complete and utter fools of themselves basically (and at the end of the week and after all the threats, and huffing and puffing they are still critically short of vaccines)

    Has UVL resigned yet?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited January 2021
    How do we think Macron is going to react, when the border closures turn around in the summer - as the UK is vaccinated and the French still have a big virus problem?
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    I think you are right - the question then becomes will the EU actually follow through on it's actions or not.

    But if the EU does block a delivery it really wouldn't surprise me if Boris

    1) Announced the issue with regret
    2) a while later extend the lockdown further due to vaccination issues

    and let the papers put 2 and 2 together as to where the blame was.
    That's incredibly costly political posturing...£10bn a week worth.
    What else would you have him do? If the EU is willing to kill British citizens (by blocking vaccine supplies) to cover up their own failings then from one perspective the only measured response would be to declare war - which clearly isn't measured either so is not worth considering.

    All Johnson can do at that point as far as immediate response is take measures internally to try and limit the damage whilst making the EU the pariah on the world stage. Of course he can also make approaches to all the drugs companies pointing out how nice it would be to be operating in a country that doesn't accuse you of murdering people for profit and slag off your product as useless.

    The alternative to simply announce the issue would be to retaliate.... Which is in no-ones interest - the vaccine supply chains are complicated and delicate.
    Absolutely. We should definitely not do anything that puts lives at risk on either side of the channel.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    The UK govt is completely confident the deliveries will come through. The EU rules, drafted yesterday, say the deliveries will come through. The deliveries will come!

    That the press get mileage out of pretending they won't is hardly surprising. For once it is PM Johnson who is the grown up in the room......
    It still puts Government in a bind though. Do you have your vaccines roll-out predicated on the basis that the EU will now do the decent thing and let the Pfizer deliveries through - and keep on with the 12 weeks gap between doses? The risk is the Pfizer doesn't arrive - and you have to rejab a couple of million who have had one dose of Pfizer already with something else. Which is a couple of million folk pushed further down the chain.

    Not a doctor or a scientist, but there has been plenty of speculation that a mix of two jabs is better than two jabs of the same one anyway.

    However, the govt will press ahead with first Pfizer jabs, as Pfizer deliveries will continue to arrive. Remember we will be a big vaccine exporter, the EU are simply not going to stop 7m Pfizer jabs when we will be net exporting hundreds of millions of jabs later in the year.
    You'ld hope, wouldn't you? Not that hope would have got you far with the EU this week.
    Allegedly the EU don't actually have the power to ban vaccine exports. National competence. Which is both reassuring given the actions of the past few days, but also means that their "promises" aren't actually something they can keep.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!

    But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
    Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?

    Pillock.
    Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.

    Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
    Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
    Have a look at Malcy's post. It's fairly pithily expressed but perfectly reasonably argued.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    OllyT said:

    There was a case to be made for the UK to leave the EU and that could have been made civilly, but but for years UKIP, the Tory right and their media cheerleaders chose to vilify and insult the EU, spreading misinformation and lies in the process.

    It is the manner in which the Brexiteers won that has resulted in far more hostility than was necessary from the other 27 members. Bashing Britain now plays well all over the rest of Europe as the vaccination row has shown.

    We are where we are and I doubt the EU would ever accept us rejoining even if we were ever to ask. For better or worse we have burnt our bridges. Perhaps that was the intention all along.

    Exactly this

    https://twitter.com/GuitarmoogMusic/status/1355292951296028673
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    alex_ said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    The UK govt is completely confident the deliveries will come through. The EU rules, drafted yesterday, say the deliveries will come through. The deliveries will come!

    That the press get mileage out of pretending they won't is hardly surprising. For once it is PM Johnson who is the grown up in the room......
    It still puts Government in a bind though. Do you have your vaccines roll-out predicated on the basis that the EU will now do the decent thing and let the Pfizer deliveries through - and keep on with the 12 weeks gap between doses? The risk is the Pfizer doesn't arrive - and you have to rejab a couple of million who have had one dose of Pfizer already with something else. Which is a couple of million folk pushed further down the chain.

    Not a doctor or a scientist, but there has been plenty of speculation that a mix of two jabs is better than two jabs of the same one anyway.

    However, the govt will press ahead with first Pfizer jabs, as Pfizer deliveries will continue to arrive. Remember we will be a big vaccine exporter, the EU are simply not going to stop 7m Pfizer jabs when we will be net exporting hundreds of millions of jabs later in the year.
    You'ld hope, wouldn't you? Not that hope would have got you far with the EU this week.
    Allegedly the EU don't actually have the power to ban vaccine exports. National competence. Which is both reassuring given the actions of the past few days, but also means that their "promises" aren't actually something they can keep.
    The can of worms they have opened is creating the export regime and, effectively green lighting such restrictions. Unless they row this back, all it takes is *one* stupid, desperate government in the EU to kick off a chain reaction.
  • Sandpit said:

    How do we think Macron is going to react, when the border closures turn around in the summer - as the UK is vaccinated and the French still have a big virus problem?

    Last summer cases were very low everywhere in Europe, hopefully the seasonal pattern repeats and by the late autumn when it would spike up again those who want to be vaccinated will have been, even in the EU. That is my expectation as well as hope. For France the problem by then might be getting more than 50% to take the vaccine.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    For me, Macron was always a candidate born of despair with the political system and the dinosaurs burdened with excessive baggage that dominated it. As David points out by far his greatest strength was that he was not them. He was also something of a blank sheet onto which those who wished to could paint their own wishes. Was he left, centre, right, a bit of all 3? Who knew?

    This ambiguity has been maintained throughout his Presidency. He has tried hard to reform pensions but also maintained restrictive work practices including the 35 hour week. Its still not exactly clear what he stands for but he now has a record to defend and the disaster that is vaccination in France is going to kill a lot of French men and women and make him look incompetent.

    I can't see France ever going for Le Pen. She is less divisive (racist) than her father but she is still too extreme for any normal circumstance. If she turns out to be his opponent he wins, however reluctantly. But can someone else do a Macron and be the new shiny thing? That has to be possible.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    The true Tory despots shining through, and then reasonable educated people wonder why Scotland wants to be independent from people like this. Tanks from HYFUD and kill Scottish people with Covid to bring them to heel from this ghoul, would make you vomit, just how low can people stoop. Nazi's were angels compared to these types of lowlifes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,349
    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.

    The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    edited January 2021

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    I think you are right - the question then becomes will the EU actually follow through on it's actions or not.

    But if the EU does block a delivery it really wouldn't surprise me if Boris

    1) Announced the issue with regret
    2) a while later extend the lockdown further due to vaccination issues

    and let the papers put 2 and 2 together as to where the blame was.
    That's incredibly costly political posturing...£10bn a week worth.
    What else would you have him do? If the EU is willing to kill British citizens (by blocking vaccine supplies) to cover up their own failings then from one perspective the only measured response would be to declare war - which clearly isn't measured either so is not worth considering.

    All Johnson can do at that point as far as immediate response is take measures internally to try and limit the damage whilst making the EU the pariah on the world stage. Of course he can also make approaches to all the drugs companies pointing out how nice it would be to be operating in a country that doesn't accuse you of murdering people for profit and slag off your product as useless.

    The alternative to simply announce the issue would be to retaliate.... Which is in no-ones interest - the vaccine supply chains are complicated and delicate.
    Absolutely. We should definitely not do anything that puts lives at risk on either side of the channel.
    *IF* any such action were taken, I think that the best reaction from this country would be... nothing. Perhaps a statement with lots of "regrets" and "sorrow".

    Apart from introducing a law that all officials from the government concerned, when in the UK, will have to use an Approved Walk from the Ministry of Silly Walks.
  • I've realised that Remainiac is no longer a strong enough word to describe those defending fruit loop Macron's pronouncements.

    They seem to be a subset of Remainiacs, but it's now a psychosis.

    I'll have to work on a new word.

    HYUFD likes the term diehard remainers, and not just at Christmas.
  • Sandpit said:

    How do we think Macron is going to react, when the border closures turn around in the summer - as the UK is vaccinated and the French still have a big virus problem?

    Border closures are not an issue. They will not stop France being able to vaccinate should they choose to. And if we are vaccinated and sending vaccine to other countries (though that whole scenario is still by no means assured) then really we don't care what Macron thinks. All the UK can do is continue to try and do the right thing as far as vaccinations are concerned both for ourselves and the rest of the world.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Jonathan said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Well we know what will be written now...The EU, willing to throw your Granny under this, rather than admit a mistake.

    But they did admit it was a mistake, and reversed it within hours.

    How many mistakes has BoZo admitted while 100,000 people died?
    The EU have NOT admitted to mistakes on their approach to vaccines. Their policies and horrendous bureaucratic bungling are going to continue to wreak havoc in the EU for the rest of this year and probably well into next.
    They have made a complete horlicks of it for sure, they are as badly run as the UK.
    If only everyone was as good as the SNP think they are.
    You absolute numpty , show me anyone that thinks SNP is any good. You really don't have the brain power to read and understand posts do you.
  • OllyT said:

    Foxy said:

    FPT

    Scottish independence?
    Northern Irish cessation?

    It’s just possible I was being a bit facetious, and having a laugh at the hyperbole in “won’t survive”.

    As often happens, there’s an underlying assumption that a plurality in England or Wales even cares whether Scotland or NI stay in the Union.
    That's true - and Northern Ireland might very well go eventually, regardless of the EU situation, because of a combination of demographic change and its special status under international treaty.

    HOWEVER - what nobody writing here seems to have appreciated yet, although you can be bloody certain that the First Minister of Scotland has, is that the worse relations between the UK and the EU become, the more remote the prospect of Scottish independence becomes also.

    It's quite simple really. When you get down to brass tacks, the sole purpose of the Act of Union was to strip Scotland of its ability to make common cause with a hostile foreign power and surround England. The rest of it - including free trade, the equivalent money, and unrestricted access to the colonies - was just about providing generous enough terms and guarantees to persuade the Scottish Parliament to accept. Thus, each time the EU becomes that little bit less friendly, the greater the incentive becomes for Westminster to hold on to Scotland at all costs.

    Watch what happens over the next few years. If the UK-EU relationship continues along the trajectory established by this month's disastrous events then it's very easy to envision an end point at which, after a report from a constitutional commission or some such thing, Westminster passes legislation that creates a federal or quasi-federal system - probably entailing yet more devolution, especially with respect to tax-raising powers - but which also declares Great Britain a perpetual union and rules secession to be illegal forever.

    Going right back to pre-devolution days and the "Independence in Europe" campaign, the vision of the independence movement has always been of Scotland and the remainder of the UK sitting peaceably side by side within a wider community of friendly powers. If most of the other powers cease to be friendly then that vision evaporates. It's that simple.
    Yes, there are increasing signs that Brexit will be quite a hostile one, with the Brexiteers eager to deflect any criticism of their pet project. The EU meanwhile is demonstrating what third country status means, and has no interest in reversing Brexit. They are glad to be rid of us, and I don't blame them.

    While I think Scotland would have quite a lot to deal with on a hostile border at Gretna Green, I think the Scottish attitude to the Auld Alliance is quite different to the English one.

    There was a poll too this week that showed a Welsh majority for Rejoin, and that would have even more complex problems.

    The problem is that Brexit was always a project of English Nationalism, so as inevitably the sunlight uplands are shown to be barren, inevitably the English government will be blamed. That is why the United Kingdom is doomed. It is only a matter of when and how now.
    Desperate stuff.

    The last 48 hours must have hit you hard.
    There was a case to be made for the UK to leave the EU and that could have been made civilly, but but for years UKIP, the Tory right and their media cheerleaders chose to vilify and insult the EU, spreading misinformation and lies in the process.

    It is the manner in which the Brexiteers won that has resulted in far more hostility than was necessary from the other 27 members. Bashing Britain now plays well all over the rest of Europe as the vaccination row has shown.

    We are where we are and I doubt the EU would ever accept us rejoining even if we were ever to ask. For better or worse we have burnt our bridges. Perhaps that was the intention all along.
    Good.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    GIN1138 said:

    Just catching up with developments,

    So the mighty, all powerful EU have made complete and utter fools of themselves basically (and at the end of the week and after all the threats, and huffing and puffing they are still critically short of vaccines)

    Has UVL resigned yet?

    It is my understanding that she can't resign, since unlike her previous failures, there isn't a position to promote her to.

    Apparently the Pope has been making difficulties about making a space for her.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MattW said:

    maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    I think you are right - the question then becomes will the EU actually follow through on it's actions or not.

    But if the EU does block a delivery it really wouldn't surprise me if Boris

    1) Announced the issue with regret
    2) a while later extend the lockdown further due to vaccination issues

    and let the papers put 2 and 2 together as to where the blame was.
    He's already pre-emptively extended lockdown - frankly when the stats were looking so good that one can only assume he is determined to be exceptionally cautious (/reckless if you include the economy as a consideration) and saw it was going to be very hard to extend if he waited another 2 weeks for the current trend to continue.
    The stats aren't looking so good yet.

    The daily death count was 1245 on the 29th, and the 7 day daily average is around the same.

    That's a very thin basis to unlock anything.
    It's beginning to look like the deaths have finally started to come back down, but yes, it's going to take a while to get back into a better place.

    Some other grounds for cautious optimism elsewhere. Quite aside from the fact that the situation should ease a little more for every week that the vaccination programme proceeds smoothly, I have also read some suggestions that the test and trace system might finally be starting to work somewhere close to properly. And, largely unnoticed amongst everything that is going on, the testing capacity has grown very large. About three quarters of a million tests were carried out on Thursday.

    So it does look like the Government probably will be able to start bringing the schools back on March 8th, but I hope to goodness they're careful and stick to the primaries to begin with. Looking forward, I'm wondering if a more substantial easing of restrictions might be delayed until after the whole of phase one of the JCVI scheme has been completed (or, at the very least, until three weeks after the last of them has had the first dose, which is of course the logic to the March 8th date - three weeks after February 15th.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,847
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    OllyT said:

    There was a case to be made for the UK to leave the EU and that could have been made civilly, but but for years UKIP, the Tory right and their media cheerleaders chose to vilify and insult the EU, spreading misinformation and lies in the process.

    It is the manner in which the Brexiteers won that has resulted in far more hostility than was necessary from the other 27 members. Bashing Britain now plays well all over the rest of Europe as the vaccination row has shown.

    We are where we are and I doubt the EU would ever accept us rejoining even if we were ever to ask. For better or worse we have burnt our bridges. Perhaps that was the intention all along.

    Exactly this

    https://twitter.com/GuitarmoogMusic/status/1355292951296028673
    Bad behaviour on one side does not make bad behaviour on the other. That the EU is acting like some of the worst elements of the UK is precisely the point, as they really did use to hold some high ground here. The former situation doesn't need to be ignored, nor is a focus on things happening now mean it will.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited January 2021

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.

    The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
    Edit: the very notion of cutting off supply is - effectively - the same as dispensing vaccine as charity rather than right.

    But tempers are warming up.

    So I'm off now for the weekend - have a nice time everyone.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Just catching up with developments,

    So the mighty, all powerful EU have made complete and utter fools of themselves basically (and at the end of the week and after all the threats, and huffing and puffing they are still critically short of vaccines)

    Has UVL resigned yet?

    It is my understanding that she can't resign, since unlike her previous failures, there isn't a position to promote her to.

    Apparently the Pope has been making difficulties about making a space for her.
    Is it still the case that the only way for a Commissioner to resign is if the whole Commission resigns? I know that was what happened with the Santer Commission but then last year the EU Trade Commissioner Phil Hogan resigned so it seems the rules have changed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,847
    edited January 2021
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Wake up, thought I had the weirdest dream about our supposed friends and allies going absolutely ape shit to cover up their shortcomings - even to the point of putting huge pressure on the Western security system.

    Turns on pc - turns out it wasn't a dream.

    Still, at least we know exactly where we stand with them and can plan and act accordingly.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    GIN1138 said:

    Just catching up with developments,

    So the mighty, all powerful EU have made complete and utter fools of themselves basically (and at the end of the week and after all the threats, and huffing and puffing they are still critically short of vaccines)

    Has UVL resigned yet?

    It is my understanding that she can't resign, since unlike her previous failures, there isn't a position to promote her to.

    Apparently the Pope has been making difficulties about making a space for her.
    Is it still the case that the only way for a Commissioner to resign is if the whole Commission resigns? I know that was what happened with the Santer Commission but then last year the EU Trade Commissioner Phil Hogan resigned so it seems the rules have changed.
    Possibly it's the only way for the Head of the Commission to resign.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Christ alive...you want to know how footballers can't stop getting Covid, despite their privileged position.

    Just watched Ben Foster video (Watford GK), Watford gone to COVID central aka London, for a match. They are staying in a hotel isolated from us the plebs, with everything they needs, but he goes pottering off to a coffee shop.

    They continually prove they are not too bright.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    MattW said:

    maaarsh said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    I think you are right - the question then becomes will the EU actually follow through on it's actions or not.

    But if the EU does block a delivery it really wouldn't surprise me if Boris

    1) Announced the issue with regret
    2) a while later extend the lockdown further due to vaccination issues

    and let the papers put 2 and 2 together as to where the blame was.
    He's already pre-emptively extended lockdown - frankly when the stats were looking so good that one can only assume he is determined to be exceptionally cautious (/reckless if you include the economy as a consideration) and saw it was going to be very hard to extend if he waited another 2 weeks for the current trend to continue.
    The stats aren't looking so good yet.

    The daily death count was 1245 on the 29th, and the 7 day daily average is around the same.

    That's a very thin basis to unlock anything.
    It's beginning to look like the deaths have finally started to come back down, but yes, it's going to take a while to get back into a better place.

    Some other grounds for cautious optimism elsewhere. Quite aside from the fact that the situation should ease a little more for every week that the vaccination programme proceeds smoothly, I have also read some suggestions that the test and trace system might finally be starting to work somewhere close to properly. And, largely unnoticed amongst everything that is going on, the testing capacity has grown very large. About three quarters of a million tests were carried out on Thursday.

    So it does look like the Government probably will be able to start bringing the schools back on March 8th, but I hope to goodness they're careful and stick to the primaries to begin with. Looking forward, I'm wondering if a more substantial easing of restrictions might be delayed until after the whole of phase one of the JCVI scheme has been completed (or, at the very least, until three weeks after the last of them has had the first dose, which is of course the logic to the March 8th date - three weeks after February 15th.)
    On testing, my local news always seem to be announcing some new rapid testing centre in the region. So seems there is a ramping up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    I've realised that Remainiac is no longer a strong enough word to describe those defending fruit loop Macron's pronouncements.

    They seem to be a subset of Remainiacs, but it's now a psychosis.

    I'll have to work on a new word.

    HYUFD likes the term diehard remainers, and not just at Christmas.
    Right, I'm triggggggggggggered

    Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

    Plus it is topical - most of the bad guys are carrying H&K MP-5, a leading product of Heckler & Koch. Which was the company who VDL took on in a contract dispute and failed spectacularly. Which is part of the reason she ended up being booted upstairs out of German politics......
  • DavidL said:

    For me, Macron was always a candidate born of despair with the political system and the dinosaurs burdened with excessive baggage that dominated it. As David points out by far his greatest strength was that he was not them. He was also something of a blank sheet onto which those who wished to could paint their own wishes. Was he left, centre, right, a bit of all 3? Who knew?

    This ambiguity has been maintained throughout his Presidency. He has tried hard to reform pensions but also maintained restrictive work practices including the 35 hour week. Its still not exactly clear what he stands for but he now has a record to defend and the disaster that is vaccination in France is going to kill a lot of French men and women and make him look incompetent.

    I can't see France ever going for Le Pen. She is less divisive (racist) than her father but she is still too extreme for any normal circumstance. If she turns out to be his opponent he wins, however reluctantly. But can someone else do a Macron and be the new shiny thing? That has to be possible.

    At some stage, surely the French will get fed up with every presidential election boiling down to “vote for me, the alternative is the fascist” in the runoff. Something has to give eventually, surely?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
    Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Yes, there is much to repay the student of language on this forum if that student is equipped with the requisite skills.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    Sandpit said:

    How do we think Macron is going to react, when the border closures turn around in the summer - as the UK is vaccinated and the French still have a big virus problem?

    Last summer cases were very low everywhere in Europe, hopefully the seasonal pattern repeats and by the late autumn when it would spike up again those who want to be vaccinated will have been, even in the EU. That is my expectation as well as hope. For France the problem by then might be getting more than 50% to take the vaccine.
    Without a much, much bigger take up the virus continues and has millions more opportunities to mutate. That is why Macron's remarks are so utterly reckless. He is not some anonymous loon on a forum like most of us - he is the leader of a major world power. Apart from the latest clusterfuck in Europe the EU has also failed spectacularly to make any significant gestures to help solve the global vaccination crisis - barely giving in hard cash what the UK has done. Everyone wants this thing gone - we have been on virtual lockdown now since Xmas was over. These measures only go so far to control things.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,152
    Floater said:

    Wake up, thought I had the weirdest dream about our supposed friends and allies going absolutely ape shit to cover up their shortcomings - even to the point of putting huge pressure on the Western security system.

    Turns on pc - turns out it wasn't a dream.

    Still, at least we know exactly where we stand with them and can plan and act accordingly.

    According to Scott and Olly the EU's behaviour is all our fault? Who knew!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.

    However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
    I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
    Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
    Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
    We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
    I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
    Is there any indication how long this "pause" is going to last? It seems to affecting more and more EU countries and is presumably the source of yesterday's panic.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Scott_xP said:

    OllyT said:

    There was a case to be made for the UK to leave the EU and that could have been made civilly, but but for years UKIP, the Tory right and their media cheerleaders chose to vilify and insult the EU, spreading misinformation and lies in the process.

    It is the manner in which the Brexiteers won that has resulted in far more hostility than was necessary from the other 27 members. Bashing Britain now plays well all over the rest of Europe as the vaccination row has shown.

    We are where we are and I doubt the EU would ever accept us rejoining even if we were ever to ask. For better or worse we have burnt our bridges. Perhaps that was the intention all along.

    Exactly this

    https://twitter.com/GuitarmoogMusic/status/1355292951296028673
    Of course - it just had to be our fault.......
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,152
    The Lib-Dems have strategists? :open_mouth:
  • FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    GIN1138 said:

    Floater said:

    Wake up, thought I had the weirdest dream about our supposed friends and allies going absolutely ape shit to cover up their shortcomings - even to the point of putting huge pressure on the Western security system.

    Turns on pc - turns out it wasn't a dream.

    Still, at least we know exactly where we stand with them and can plan and act accordingly.

    According to Scott and Olly the EU's behaviour is all our fault? Who knew!
    It is victim blaming.

    It is the political equivalent of "She was wearing a miniskirt. She deserved all she got."
  • To be in charge of LD strategy would actually be a great job, to follow the current lot very dull.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    edited January 2021
    Morning all!

    For work, I'm helping a small business to launch a food brand. I was wondering if anyone (particularly our legal beagles) knew of a good source of info online (or a book potentially) on trademark law. The person's name is already a registered trade mark, and I am exploring whether we can add some supplementary words to be able to register our brand name. This is not a request for free legal advice - we will get professional help in due course.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    GIN1138 said:

    According to Scott and Olly the EU's behaviour is all our fault? Who knew!

    Floater said:

    Of course - it just had to be our fault.......

    Bollocks

    Neither of you read or understood it, obviously.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    How do we think Macron is going to react, when the border closures turn around in the summer - as the UK is vaccinated and the French still have a big virus problem?

    Last summer cases were very low everywhere in Europe, hopefully the seasonal pattern repeats and by the late autumn when it would spike up again those who want to be vaccinated will have been, even in the EU. That is my expectation as well as hope. For France the problem by then might be getting more than 50% to take the vaccine.
    Without a much, much bigger take up the virus continues and has millions more opportunities to mutate. That is why Macron's remarks are so utterly reckless. He is not some anonymous loon on a forum like most of us - he is the leader of a major world power. Apart from the latest clusterfuck in Europe the EU has also failed spectacularly to make any significant gestures to help solve the global vaccination crisis - barely giving in hard cash what the UK has done. Everyone wants this thing gone - we have been on virtual lockdown now since Xmas was over. These measures only go so far to control things.
    The other game changer is the Kent variant which is increasingly becoming dominant. Many of the restrictions which worked against the original variant no longer work and what we can do is impossibly limited with huge economic and educational effects. Vaccination is the only way out and Macron's comments are unbelievably irresponsible and self defeating. If David thought he was a lay before...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
    Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
    I think they actually believed the Perfidious Brits and Perfidious Brit Company narrative.

    The alternative was to believe that the situation is not quick to fix, not cheap to fix, and they will be taking the blame for months. While the indications are that they are in the shit.

    Look at the graph below. What this tells me, is that with the new variants etc, lockdown holds R below 1, but not very much. Any relaxation and it will go back above 1.

    Without mass vaccination, lockdowns won't be ending. Unless you go all Toby Young.

    image
  • GIN1138 said:

    Just catching up with developments,

    So the mighty, all powerful EU have made complete and utter fools of themselves basically (and at the end of the week and after all the threats, and huffing and puffing they are still critically short of vaccines)

    Has UVL resigned yet?

    It is my understanding that she can't resign, since unlike her previous failures, there isn't a position to promote her to.

    Apparently the Pope has been making difficulties about making a space for her.
    Is it still the case that the only way for a Commissioner to resign is if the whole Commission resigns? I know that was what happened with the Santer Commission but then last year the EU Trade Commissioner Phil Hogan resigned so it seems the rules have changed.
    Without looking it up I think it was that it was impossible to sack just one, it is all or nothing.
    This would probably date back to the time that each country had one commissioner and so sacking them would leave that country without representation at the highest level, assuming I’ve remembered the details properly.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?

    Pillock.
    Jingo Bells Jingo Bells Jingo all the way.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    DavidL said:

    For me, Macron was always a candidate born of despair with the political system and the dinosaurs burdened with excessive baggage that dominated it. As David points out by far his greatest strength was that he was not them. He was also something of a blank sheet onto which those who wished to could paint their own wishes. Was he left, centre, right, a bit of all 3? Who knew?

    This ambiguity has been maintained throughout his Presidency. He has tried hard to reform pensions but also maintained restrictive work practices including the 35 hour week. Its still not exactly clear what he stands for but he now has a record to defend and the disaster that is vaccination in France is going to kill a lot of French men and women and make him look incompetent.

    I can't see France ever going for Le Pen. She is less divisive (racist) than her father but she is still too extreme for any normal circumstance. If she turns out to be his opponent he wins, however reluctantly. But can someone else do a Macron and be the new shiny thing? That has to be possible.

    At some stage, surely the French will get fed up with every presidential election boiling down to “vote for me, the alternative is the fascist” in the runoff. Something has to give eventually, surely?
    Like in 1789 perhaps?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Yes, there is much to repay the student of language on this forum if that student is equipped with the requisite skills.
    Do let us know when you get some.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Over 25% of UK Covid deaths have happened in the last month
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,236
    edited January 2021
    Even if Le Pen does win the first round next Spring, as now looks likely, Macron will still almost certainly win the runoff on the basis he is not Le Pen. Even if Le Pen gets close.

    However the relatively low approval ratings for the President suggest if Les Republicains and the centre right picked a decent candidate and they managed to get to the second round against either Le Pen or Macron they would have a good chance of winning. At the moment the former Health Minister Xavier Bertrand, now President of the Regional Council of Hauts-de-France or Laurent Wauquiez, the President of Les Republicains from 2017 to 2019 or Francois Baroin, Fillon's Finance Minister, look the likeliest candidates from the centre right.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    When in noticed the
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
    Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
    This is a serious diplomatic incident caused by a supply problem. We are seeing more and more vaccines come on line and production will increase. With the underlying cause gone then the diplomatic tension will ease.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Scott_xP said:

    GIN1138 said:

    According to Scott and Olly the EU's behaviour is all our fault? Who knew!

    Floater said:

    Of course - it just had to be our fault.......

    Bollocks

    Neither of you read or understood it, obviously.
    The people on that feed are nuts Scot, nothing more, nothing less.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
    Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
    But a whole magnitude of order worse in terms of potential outcomes

    You do see that right?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.

    However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
    I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
    Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
    Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
    We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
    I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
    Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
    As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
    As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
    Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.

    However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
    I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
    Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
    Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
    We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
    I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
    You weren't on my "naughty list".
    He is the fool from your previous post Pete. A moron who complains and yet has gone to live in the EU, you could not make it up.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,152
    Alistair said:

    Over 25% of UK Covid deaths have happened in the last month

    This second wave with the mutated virus has been absolutely terrible.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Scott_xP said:

    GIN1138 said:

    According to Scott and Olly the EU's behaviour is all our fault? Who knew!

    Floater said:

    Of course - it just had to be our fault.......

    Bollocks

    Neither of you read or understood it, obviously.
    Coming from you that is hilarious.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Yes, there is much to repay the student of language on this forum if that student is equipped with the requisite skills.
    Do let us know when you get some.
    Now now. No need for that. I'll "study" you if you provoke me.
  • kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Yes, there is much to repay the student of language on this forum if that student is equipped with the requisite skills.
    But very few are, certainly not as many as those that think they are.

    What normally happens is that comments from those one disagrees with are examined for every nuance of meaning, particularly if offence can be taken (which it often can if one tries hard enough) while comments one agrees with are taken at face value, even assumed to be just joke if they really are offensive on the face of it.

    This is not new, or even my own idea: I’m basing it on a passage from C S Lewis in The Screwtape Letters.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Dura_Ace said:

    EU 'bureaucracy' sees fish rejected at border because of forms filled out in wrong colour

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/29/eu-bureaucracy-sees-fish-rejected-border-forms-filled-wrong/

    𝘈𝘍𝘛𝘌𝘙 𝘉𝘙𝘌𝘟𝘐𝘛 𝘞𝘌 𝘞𝘖𝘕'𝘛 𝘉𝘌 𝘈𝘉𝘓𝘌 𝘛𝘖 𝘉𝘓𝘈𝘔𝘌 𝘛𝘏𝘌 𝘌𝘜 𝘍𝘖𝘙 𝘖𝘜𝘙 𝘗𝘙𝘖𝘉𝘓𝘌𝘔𝘚
    Cute the way you turn the Brexit arguments against us.

    Are you actually saying that the EU just is so mega powerful that we'll essentially be in it for ever, even after leaving, so what was the point?
    If you used your brain you would see he is saying that if you cause problems yourself now you cannot blame it on the EU as we are not under their control.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,152
    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.

    However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
    I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
    Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
    Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
    We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
    I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
    You weren't on my "naughty list".
    He is the fool from your previous post Pete. A moron who complains and yet has gone to live in the EU, you could not make it up.
    Maybe he was there before the EU was ever a "thing" ?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    Even if Le Pen does win the first round next Spring, as now looks likely, Macron will still almost certainly win the runoff on the basis he is not Le Pen. Even if Le Pen gets close.

    However the relatively low approval ratings for the President suggest if Les Republicains and the centre right picked a decent candidate and they managed to get to the second round against either Le Pen or Macron they would have a good chance of winning. At the moment the former Health Minister Xavier Bertrand, now President of the Regional Council of Hauts-de-France or Laurent Wauquiez, the President of Les Republicains from 2017 to 2019 or Francois Baroin, Fillon's Finance Minister, look the likeliest candidates from the centre right.

    Barnier?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    felix said:

    DavidL said:

    For me, Macron was always a candidate born of despair with the political system and the dinosaurs burdened with excessive baggage that dominated it. As David points out by far his greatest strength was that he was not them. He was also something of a blank sheet onto which those who wished to could paint their own wishes. Was he left, centre, right, a bit of all 3? Who knew?

    This ambiguity has been maintained throughout his Presidency. He has tried hard to reform pensions but also maintained restrictive work practices including the 35 hour week. Its still not exactly clear what he stands for but he now has a record to defend and the disaster that is vaccination in France is going to kill a lot of French men and women and make him look incompetent.

    I can't see France ever going for Le Pen. She is less divisive (racist) than her father but she is still too extreme for any normal circumstance. If she turns out to be his opponent he wins, however reluctantly. But can someone else do a Macron and be the new shiny thing? That has to be possible.

    At some stage, surely the French will get fed up with every presidential election boiling down to “vote for me, the alternative is the fascist” in the runoff. Something has to give eventually, surely?
    Like in 1789 perhaps?
    The worry has to be that these are not normal times.

    It would take a couple of really spectacular events to make the RN candidate in the French Presidential actually win.

    Pause....

    Yes. Indeed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?

    Pillock.
    Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.

    Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
    Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
    Interesting that you are unable to tell the difference between the content and demeanour of the two.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
    As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
    No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2021

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
    As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
    Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
    I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    Floater said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
    Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
    But a whole magnitude of order worse in terms of potential outcomes

    You do see that right?
    Yes.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    EU 'bureaucracy' sees fish rejected at border because of forms filled out in wrong colour

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/01/29/eu-bureaucracy-sees-fish-rejected-border-forms-filled-wrong/

    𝘈𝘍𝘛𝘌𝘙 𝘉𝘙𝘌𝘟𝘐𝘛 𝘞𝘌 𝘞𝘖𝘕'𝘛 𝘉𝘌 𝘈𝘉𝘓𝘌 𝘛𝘖 𝘉𝘓𝘈𝘔𝘌 𝘛𝘏𝘌 𝘌𝘜 𝘍𝘖𝘙 𝘖𝘜𝘙 𝘗𝘙𝘖𝘉𝘓𝘌𝘔𝘚
    Cute the way you turn the Brexit arguments against us.

    Are you actually saying that the EU just is so mega powerful that we'll essentially be in it for ever, even after leaving, so what was the point?
    If you used your brain you would see he is saying that if you cause problems yourself now you cannot blame it on the EU as we are not under their control.
    'we are not under their control' - I like that Malc. :sunglasses:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    DougSeal said:

    When in noticed the

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    It's worth saying though as the Daily Mail is reporting that it does seem that the EU's export ban on our next delivery of Pfizer vaccines means they will be blocked. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9204361/The-EU-cocked-big-time-Brussels-ridiculed-humiliating-U-turn.html

    Which means this story isn't dead yet.

    "The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."

    What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
    I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.

    Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.

    Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
    My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.

    A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
    Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
    They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
    It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
    Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
    This is a serious diplomatic incident caused by a supply problem. We are seeing more and more vaccines come on line and production will increase. With the underlying cause gone then the diplomatic tension will ease.
    The problem is that this will not happen quickly. In addition, the vaccine distribution chain in Europe has simply not been setup (apart from Germany, to an extent) to do a rapid roll out.

    This structure has been planned and setup in the UK since the vaccine ordering started. It can't just be magic'd up in 10 minutes.

    One of the problems of good governmental action is that it makes it look easy. Take American foreign policy after Bush I.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.

    Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?

    We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.


    Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"

    There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
    Yes, there is much to repay the student of language on this forum if that student is equipped with the requisite skills.
    But very few are, certainly not as many as those that think they are.

    What normally happens is that comments from those one disagrees with are examined for every nuance of meaning, particularly if offence can be taken (which it often can if one tries hard enough) while comments one agrees with are taken at face value, even assumed to be just joke if they really are offensive on the face of it.

    This is not new, or even my own idea: I’m basing it on a passage from C S Lewis in The Screwtape Letters.
    Some truth there. But also something else. You might be equally efficacious at reading friend and foe alike, picking up the "tells", but more inclined to comment on the latter.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,349
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Chris said:

    In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.

    Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.

    I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
    I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.

    No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.

    We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.

    I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.

    How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
    My sentiments exactly.

    And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.

    I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
    As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
    Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
    Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
    Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.

    Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
    The true Tory despots shining through, and then reasonable educated people wonder why Scotland wants to be independent from people like this. Tanks from HYFUD and kill Scottish people with Covid to bring them to heel from this ghoul, would make you vomit, just how low can people stoop. Nazi's were angels compared to these types of lowlifes.
    lol. malcy, never knowingly out-outraged....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    I was just thinking this and then Owen tweeted it. Great minds -
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1355298186831781888
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Alistair said:

    Over 25% of UK Covid deaths have happened in the last month

    Alistair said:

    Over 25% of UK Covid deaths have happened in the last month

    These vaccines cannot come soon enough. This is why (sadly) we have to wait to help other nations until we have secured vaccines for our entire population.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
    As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
    Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
    I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
    I think it's more that the EC do know that there's a difference, but in an attempt to deflect blame are whipping up populist outrage to try to justify their position. And naturally a substantial body of opinion is choosing to believe them. Although it is notable that they are being undermined somewhat by a fair bit of the serious press.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.

    I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.

    The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.

    The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
    As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
    Lol. Only you would find some false equivalence. Deluded as ever I see.
This discussion has been closed.