And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
At least Macron undermined confidence in only one particular vaccine. Kate Bingham undermined confidence in the vaccines in general with her bizarre statement about not wanting to vaccinate the whole population because of side effects.
1. Fundamentally Macron has failed. Whether he was trying to do the right things or not, or in the right way, on the main metrics, on the economy and Covid, he has failed.
2. One of the features of Macron's failure is that he's failed to stand up ideologically against the fringes of the right. He fawned over Trump. He speaks the words of anti-vaxxers. This has acted to normalize the politics of Le Pen.
3. There's no-one else. Maybe someone will emerge, but I think not. Hollande came to office with the enthusiasm that the centre-left had the answers to French malaise, after the failures of the centre-right. He failed. Macron is the failure of the radical centre. This leaves only the Left vs the Right - and my sense is that, as with Corbyn, the Left in France is still mired in the arguments of the past, and doesn't have a story about the future to tell the voters. And so, Le Pen.
Don't say that, the next few years are already going to be terrible with the COVID recovery being slower than expected all over the world. The last thing we need is Le Pen to win in France. Macron has been a bit useless lately but that's still so much better than Le Pen. That family and their values should not be allowed anywhere near the levers of power.
It wouldn't be Trumpism. It would be worse. The worst of his values combined with the ability to actually get the policies done.
And at thr time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
And yet again these are supposed to be actions of "friends and allies"?
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
I think your understanding is wrong. AZN is being used for all age groups. Most intitially were Pfizer as this was what they had. AZN has been approved for use by the MHRA and the EMA for all ages.
Yes, it seems pretty random (unfortunately IMO, Olly's policy would be better, since Pfizer has the higher effectiveness so it makes sense to use it for the most vulnerable groups). A friend who is 75 got the AZ vaccine yesterday.
I get mine on Tuesday (don't know which). The enquiry was curiously tentative - "We could now offer you a vaccination. Would you be interested in doing that?" "Yes, of course." "It'll be at 8.27 on Tuesday, I know that's awfully earlky, will that be OK?" "Yes!" Just a very polite volunteer, I guess.
Didn't you ask? You wont want to get the wrong one when it comes to the second jab.
Yes, she said she didn't know. I'll ask when I get it.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
I think your understanding is wrong. AZN is being used for all age groups. Most intitially were Pfizer as this was what they had. AZN has been approved for use by the MHRA and the EMA for all ages.
Yes, it seems pretty random (unfortunately IMO, Olly's policy would be better, since Pfizer has the higher effectiveness so it makes sense to use it for the most vulnerable groups). A friend who is 75 got the AZ vaccine yesterday.
I get mine on Tuesday (don't know which). The enquiry was curiously tentative - "We could now offer you a vaccination. Would you be interested in doing that?" "Yes, of course." "It'll be at 8.27 on Tuesday, I know that's awfully earlky, will that be OK?" "Yes!" Just a very polite volunteer, I guess.
If they asked you to stay for 15 minutes after the jab to make sure you didn't have an allergic reaction it was Pfizer. If you were in and out quickly it was AZ.
Yes, thanks - it's next Tuesday, I should have been clearer.
And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
No, there's no connection between those two things. Pfizer was used first because it was available first, and the first people to be vaccinated were older people.
A very good article on the EU vaccine situation. 3 takeaways:
1) The EU seemed a little fixated on being anti-Trump 2) They wanted companies producing the vaccine to be criminally liable for problems 3) The need to continually get agreement of 27 members is very cumbersome
On the issue of liability I'm rather ashamed to say I do not know who has been responsible for the clinical trials. Is it the vaccine producers themselves? If so that doesn't seem right. Government should have verified the efficacy independently.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Michael Gove isn't English Malc. And he is very much 'the brains' (God help us - everyone) behind the current Government.
There is a shortage of people making their name in devolved-country politics and then moving into UK politics though. In a properly functioning devolved state this would be the norm.
EVEL put paid to that even though the principle had been in place for a time before that. Tories always hated devolution and moved to make sure they would not have Scots in high places again , I personally don't count a reptile like Gove as being Scottish as he is a conniving slimeball who would take on any mantle to promote himself. Hence the drift to certain Independence as they have marginalised anything Scottish at Westminster and actively worked against devolution and Scotland. Acted very like the EU are acting at the moment trying to browbeat everyone. Basically I totally agree with you.
Malc, that's not a valid argument and you know it. 'There are no Scottish people in power and that Scottish person doesn't count because I don't like him'.
Regarding the lack of Scottish politicians holding high positions in the UK parties, isn't it more a symptom of the popularity of the SNP, and the decline of the LDs, Labour, and to some extent the Tories in Scotland? The SNP in WM are, by choice, a permanent opposition. So you don't get the Browns, the Kennedys, the Darlings etc. that you once did. Hard to argue anyone else has marginalised you if you have done it yourself.
True as they have little to no MP's apart from the brown nosers like Gove that have English seats it is difficult. However the fact that they treat the SNP MP's so badly is shocking and explains perfectly why people want Independence. Though I would contend the unionists have done it to themselves by being so crap that all the MP's are SNP.
And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
I believe the German's did their side deal before this was signed. I don't know what the repercussions for the Poles doing one after will be.
And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
Well it does say "unlike EU member states". Not surprising it'd be less flexible for non-members.
That's priced in. Who suspected Macron was a mini Trumper?
Well don't forget he made an even bigger play for Trumps attention when he got elected than even the UK, and made a big song and dance about giving him the full red carpet treatment for a visit before the any other European country.
1. Fundamentally Macron has failed. Whether he was trying to do the right things or not, or in the right way, on the main metrics, on the economy and Covid, he has failed.
2. One of the features of Macron's failure is that he's failed to stand up ideologically against the fringes of the right. He fawned over Trump. He speaks the words of anti-vaxxers. This has acted to normalize the politics of Le Pen.
3. There's no-one else. Maybe someone will emerge, but I think not. Hollande came to office with the enthusiasm that the centre-left had the answers to French malaise, after the failures of the centre-right. He failed. Macron is the failure of the radical centre. This leaves only the Left vs the Right - and my sense is that, as with Corbyn, the Left in France is still mired in the arguments of the past, and doesn't have a story about the future to tell the voters. And so, Le Pen.
I really hope you're wrong.
But if you're right I'm not sure what would change.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
Yes, I find the suggestion that we should withhold vaccines from Scotland extremely distasteful this morning. We should all be celebrating our success and hopeful exit from this bastard lockdown in a few months not sniping at each other.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
The Scottish government led vaccine procurement for Scotland?
Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
The Scottish government led vaccine procurement for Scotland?
Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Does your neck hurt, trying to face in two directions at once ?
I've only been on PB for a few months, yet your aggression and deliberate mischaracterisation of other people stands out like a sore thumb to me. You do so much harm to your cause by the manner in which you debate here.
I’m sure* that following this, plus all the mutations that have happened where spread was rampant, and the hospitalisation figures for younger age groups, coupled with the evidence of long-term damage from Covid in all age groups, the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration will be withdrawing it immediately.
*By “sure”, I mean “absolutely certain that they, in fact, will completely ignore all of this”, unfortunately.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
That's unkind Malcolm. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country as wonderful as the United Kingdom. We should recognise our blessings and not be so smug about it.
David, UK is a political concept , not a country. However as you say all countries of the political concept are indeed wonderful and it is a joy to live in one of them, especially today when the sun is shining and sky is blue. PS: hard to take him seriously when he chooses to live in EU and then whines about it, why not emigrate back to England if he thinks it is so bad there.
As you keep talking about my life choices so much without a clue as to my background why don't you shove another turnip right up where the sun doesn't shine like in the rest of Scotland and stop telling posters what they can and cannot post. Wherever they live.
Away and get a life you numpty. Stick your life where the sun shines , as stated I have no interest in you other than you are always whining about the EU but choose to live there. If you are that stupid Jog on loser.
For all your lack of interest you seem strangely obsessed about where people live and what rights it gives them to post on here. I note with some amusement that you don't like people whining on here about things - there must be a mirror shortage in your gaff.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
That's one part of the debt at least that we can put you down for taking on post Independence then?
As long as we get our fair share of all assets we will take on a fair share of the debts. No share of all the assets , infrastructure , buildings , ships , embassies etc that we have paid for then as per the last time rUK will choose to keep its debt.
Do you want your share of buildings as the buildings in Scotland? Or do you want 9% of the buildings in England - and for England to have 90% of the buildings in Scotland?
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
I literally can't think of any reason why the Government might have wanted to promote/publicise positive outcomes viz the EU in early January.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
That's one part of the debt at least that we can put you down for taking on post Independence then?
Sure they will be piling it on , given they claim it is all ours at present
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
The Scottish government led vaccine procurement for Scotland?
Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
I'll take that as a no.
We would be in far better shape if they had been running the show for sure and much less largesse for the chumocracy.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Michael Gove isn't English Malc. And he is very much 'the brains' (God help us - everyone) behind the current Government.
There is a shortage of people making their name in devolved-country politics and then moving into UK politics though. In a properly functioning devolved state this would be the norm.
EVEL put paid to that even though the principle had been in place for a time before that. Tories always hated devolution and moved to make sure they would not have Scots in high places again , I personally don't count a reptile like Gove as being Scottish as he is a conniving slimeball who would take on any mantle to promote himself. Hence the drift to certain Independence as they have marginalised anything Scottish at Westminster and actively worked against devolution and Scotland. Acted very like the EU are acting at the moment trying to browbeat everyone. Basically I totally agree with you.
Malc, that's not a valid argument and you know it. 'There are no Scottish people in power and that Scottish person doesn't count because I don't like him'.
Regarding the lack of Scottish politicians holding high positions in the UK parties, isn't it more a symptom of the popularity of the SNP, and the decline of the LDs, Labour, and to some extent the Tories in Scotland? The SNP in WM are, by choice, a permanent opposition. So you don't get the Browns, the Kennedys, the Darlings etc. that you once did. Hard to argue anyone else has marginalised you if you have done it yourself.
True as they have little to no MP's apart from the brown nosers like Gove that have English seats it is difficult. However the fact that they treat the SNP MP's so badly is shocking and explains perfectly why people want Independence. Though I would contend the unionists have done it to themselves by being so crap that all the MP's are SNP.
Have they been treated particularly badly?
This would be partially solved imo if there were a 'Scotland first' party, for and run in Scotland and not affiliated to the main parties but wishing to remain in the UK. A DUP for Scotland. They would be able to enter coalition with any other party, and the chances are they would be in power more than out of it. However, we are where we are. Even the latest party in Scotland 'Reform UK' is a Farage offshoot. That won't do anything.
As someone who is usually quite fastidious about language, if that were your intent I feel you would have included the definite article and not capitalised sturgeon.
As someone who is usually quite fastidious about language, if that were your intent I feel you would have included the definite article and not capitalised sturgeon.
After you decapitalised Johnson, I thought it a fair trade.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
That's one part of the debt at least that we can put you down for taking on post Independence then?
As long as we get our fair share of all assets we will take on a fair share of the debts. No share of all the assets , infrastructure , buildings , ships , embassies etc that we have paid for then as per the last time rUK will choose to keep its debt.
Do you want your share of buildings as the buildings in Scotland? Or do you want 9% of the buildings in England - and for England to have 90% of the buildings in Scotland?
Philip, as you well know 90% of next to nothing is almost nothing, happy to give you 90% of our meagre fair for 10% of your opulence including the tax havens.
It is taking place - just without any sense of urgency......
Apart from the several places where it is currently stopped.
Is it completely stopped, or just new first doses? I guess the benefit of being continent wide is the situation is so varied from place to place any statement will be at least partly true.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
Your statement that there was a decision to use Pfizer for over 65s and AZN for the rest is wrong. Anecdotes here alone proves it.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
I think your understanding is wrong. AZN is being used for all age groups. Most intitially were Pfizer as this was what they had. AZN has been approved for use by the MHRA and the EMA for all ages.
Yes, it seems pretty random (unfortunately IMO, Olly's policy would be better, since Pfizer has the higher effectiveness so it makes sense to use it for the most vulnerable groups). A friend who is 75 got the AZ vaccine yesterday.
I get mine on Tuesday (don't know which). The enquiry was curiously tentative - "We could now offer you a vaccination. Would you be interested in doing that?" "Yes, of course." "It'll be at 8.27 on Tuesday, I know that's awfully earlky, will that be OK?" "Yes!" Just a very polite volunteer, I guess.
Didn't you ask? You wont want to get the wrong one when it comes to the second jab.
Yes, she said she didn't know. I'll ask when I get it.
Did they tell you to get the Eurostar and pick it up from a Belgian contact? If so it's Pfizer.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
The Scottish government led vaccine procurement for Scotland?
Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
I'll take that as a no.
We would be in far better shape if they had been running the show for sure and much less largesse for the chumocracy.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
Only the government knows, but we know the policy in England is that the AZN is the preferred option to be used in care homes and for the housebound, due to the characteristics of the two vaccines.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
Not ones that accuse their mates of starting a war when things go wrong for them?
Wow, he really didn't like that poll about him and Le Pen, did he?
Seriously, I don't take comments from a French President about the UK PM, or vice versa, seriously, since it's such an easy way to play to the crowd. If I were French I'd be immediately suspcious when I heard such talk.
“Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible."
I mean, there's truth in that. But there's no way he's dumb enough to not see that he does the same thing.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
That's one part of the debt at least that we can put you down for taking on post Independence then?
As long as we get our fair share of all assets we will take on a fair share of the debts. No share of all the assets , infrastructure , buildings , ships , embassies etc that we have paid for then as per the last time rUK will choose to keep its debt.
Do you want your share of buildings as the buildings in Scotland? Or do you want 9% of the buildings in England - and for England to have 90% of the buildings in Scotland?
Philip, as you well know 90% of next to nothing is almost nothing, happy to give you 90% of our meagre fair for 10% of your opulence including the tax havens.
Well I am ok with that if that is what you want.
Though I doubt that the Scottish Government will want to negotiate the rump UK Government owning 90% of Holyrood. If they do then fair enough.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
I expect the distribution of the Pfizer vaccine comes down to where they can store it adequately. AZ will be filling all of the gaps.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
It is taking place - just without any sense of urgency......
Apart from the several places where it is currently stopped.
Is it completely stopped, or just new first doses? I guess the benefit of being continent wide is the situation is so varied from place to place any statement will be at least partly true.
Hopefully things pick up next week.
With numbers going through the roof right now we are in for a very difficult few weeks. The aim is for 70% of older groups done by the summer. Their is pessimism as to whether even that can be achieved.
I have just had my 1st AZN dose. By the end of today 650 doses will have been administered to Group 5 patients at my practice. If this is in any way representative of other areas, then I can see light at the end of the tunnel for the first time.
The owner of this site described it as a great post so I thought it was worth seeing again.
You did right. Flawed but at the same time articulate and insightful. Ditto their follow up post when they got tumbling with the energetic and diligent Philip Thompson construct. It's certainly a useful counterview to what has been something of an orgy of "We're great, they're shit. Thank fuck we're out!" sentiment. The main point is a good one, I think. There is a disturbing amount of nationalistic propaganda pumped out these "Boris" and "Brexity" days, and there is a disturbingly large and receptive domestic audience for it. I personally don't think it's in the same ballpark as the Trumpian side of America, nevertheless it is something all those who are not sold on National Populism as the way forward should be anxious about.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
I think your understanding is wrong. AZN is being used for all age groups. Most intitially were Pfizer as this was what they had. AZN has been approved for use by the MHRA and the EMA for all ages.
Yes, it seems pretty random (unfortunately IMO, Olly's policy would be better, since Pfizer has the higher effectiveness so it makes sense to use it for the most vulnerable groups). A friend who is 75 got the AZ vaccine yesterday.
I get mine on Tuesday (don't know which). The enquiry was curiously tentative - "We could now offer you a vaccination. Would you be interested in doing that?" "Yes, of course." "It'll be at 8.27 on Tuesday, I know that's awfully earlky, will that be OK?" "Yes!" Just a very polite volunteer, I guess.
Didn't you ask? You wont want to get the wrong one when it comes to the second jab.
Yes, she said she didn't know. I'll ask when I get it.
Did they tell you to get the Eurostar and pick it up from a Belgian contact? If so it's Pfizer.
Did the nurse emerge out of a dry ice fog, like (Not) in Ice Station Zebra?
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
Because everyone else has been saying how much better things would have been in we had stayed in the EU. We have had some examples of those tweets reposted yesterday showing how utterly wrong they were.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
Basically there is no preference for one over the other, except that
- Pfizer vaccinations commenced earlier - The logistics of Pfizer are harder so there are limitations on its use (so for example, AZ is used for vaccinations in carehomes etc)
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
I think your understanding is wrong. AZN is being used for all age groups. Most intitially were Pfizer as this was what they had. AZN has been approved for use by the MHRA and the EMA for all ages.
Yes, it seems pretty random (unfortunately IMO, Olly's policy would be better, since Pfizer has the higher effectiveness so it makes sense to use it for the most vulnerable groups). A friend who is 75 got the AZ vaccine yesterday.
I get mine on Tuesday (don't know which). The enquiry was curiously tentative - "We could now offer you a vaccination. Would you be interested in doing that?" "Yes, of course." "It'll be at 8.27 on Tuesday, I know that's awfully earlky, will that be OK?" "Yes!" Just a very polite volunteer, I guess.
Didn't you ask? You wont want to get the wrong one when it comes to the second jab.
Yes, she said she didn't know. I'll ask when I get it.
Did they tell you to get the Eurostar and pick it up from a Belgian contact? If so it's Pfizer.
Did the nurse emerge out of a dry ice fog, like (Not) in Ice Station Zebra?
Apparently you go to the big square in Brussels to the cafe and ask for Rene..... #secretarmy
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
I expect the distribution of the Pfizer vaccine comes down to where they can store it adequately. AZ will be filling all of the gaps.
That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:
"However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."
The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.
That was an interesting read. On the one hand, encouraging that the hospital and corpse tallies should ultimately improve at a rapid pace, albeit after what will probably feel like an interminable wait.
On the other, good explanation for why we are probably going to be lumbered with something not too far off lockdown for quite a long time.
We could really, really do with a repetition of last year's Spring, weather wise: not only would it help to slaughter the Plague bug, it'd allow us to get out and have some respite from cold and rain and endless boring days stuck inside in front of screens. Because we're probably not getting most of the leisure and hospitality businesses (or what's left of them anyway) back until well into the Summer.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
Only the government knows, but we know the policy in England is that the AZN is the preferred option to be used in care homes and for the housebound, due to the characteristics of the two vaccines.
Thanks, if that is the case then I find it reassuring.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:
"However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."
The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.
The owner of this site described it as a great post so I thought it was worth seeing again.
You did right. Flawed but at the same time articulate and insightful. Ditto their follow up post when they got tumbling with the energetic and diligent Philip Thompson construct. It's certainly a useful counterview to what has been something of an orgy of "We're great, they're shit. Thank fuck we're out!" sentiment. The main point is a good one, I think. There is a disturbing amount of nationalistic propaganda pumped out these "Boris" and "Brexity" days, and there is a disturbingly large and receptive domestic audience for it. I personally don't think it's in the same ballpark as the Trumpian side of America, nevertheless it is something all those who are not sold on National Populism as the way forward should be anxious about.
He lost it when he said that America was merely "wounded" by Trump, but the UK is irretreviably broken. Not somebody who's been paying much attention to the USA is perhaps the charitable explanation.
Not ones that accuse their mates of starting a war when things go wrong for them?
Jesus he's more of a prick than one of the vaccines he doesn't want/can't have!
Anyone would think that he's up for election soon...
Not sure that playing to the crowd by piling into the British is a particularly strong play unless you feel on firm ground about the course of the next few months...
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
But the point I am making is that the two are in no way comparable. One the one hand we have a tweet from a health minister proud of the relative success of the program he is partly responsible for, on the other we have the EU threatening to ban exports and establishing a hard border in NI by accident. I just cannot see how you can equate the two.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
Only the government knows, but we know the policy in England is that the AZN is the preferred option to be used in care homes and for the housebound, due to the characteristics of the two vaccines.
Thanks, if that is the case then I find it reassuring.
The thing is at the moment, the (harsh) reality is that the vaccination scheme isn't really about one individual. We aren't trying to eliminate COVID and provide 100% protection to any one individual. In an ideal world, perhaps next year, we will.
The current approach is all geared towards squashing the prevalence of COVID as much as possible and attempting to minimize the worst outcomes among the largest number of people.
All we as individuals can do is accept a jab when offered and try to follow the rules as best we can, and realise that regardless of being given the Pfizer of AZN vaccine, we don't have an invincibility shield, and certainly not for many weeks, and it is potentially still possible to pass it on to others.
We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.
I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.
Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
I expect the distribution of the Pfizer vaccine comes down to where they can store it adequately. AZ will be filling all of the gaps.
That makes sense.
And remember that both are believed to be very effective at preventing hospitalisation and death. Of course time will tell but that is the reality of accelerated vaccine programmes - the alternative is to wait and hope. Where I live people would queue all night if there were any vaccines available. The whole experience has shot my belief and confidence in the EU. Sadly, Spain is one of the EU members who rely on its invincibility for obvious historical reasons.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
“We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:
"However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."
The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.
It's good to know that for all the talk, the UK Govt appear to have been very clearheaded about what was happening in the US.
I have just had my 1st AZN dose. By the end of today 650 doses will have been administered to Group 5 patients at my practice. If this is in any way representative of other areas, then I can see light at the end of the tunnel for the first time.
Interesting: for clarity, do you mean the fifth cohort, i.e. they're done with the first four priority groups and have gone on to the recently retired round your way? That would be exceptionally quick.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
It isn't crass it is contrast. Every Government and Opposition has always made contrasts when it favours themselves. Bog standard.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
But the point I am making is that the two are in no way comparable. One the one hand we have a tweet from a health minister proud of the relative success of the program he is partly responsible for, on the other we have the EU threatening to ban exports and establishing a hard border in NI by accident. I just cannot see how you can equate the two.
BDS - apparently there is no cure...or vaccine..maybe in Europe? Ask Mac.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
“We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
I think the Wellcome trust were being a bit starry-eyed about the EU, thinking that the EU would only get enough vaccine for the priority groups so that the wider world can have supplies for the same. The EU's miserly contribution to the Covax fund must have been a great disappointment to them.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
“We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
The EU's statements appear to be geared towards having been a passive purchaser of vaccines. "We'll buy what we need, but not hoard them where we don't really need it". The idea that they could have had a substantial part to play in actively investing to expand supply seems to have passed them by.
EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."
UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."
EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
“We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
The EU's statements appear to be geared towards having been a passive purchaser of vaccines. "We'll buy what we need, but not hoard them where we don't really need it". The idea that they could have had a substantial part to play in actively investing to expand supply seems to have passed them by.
To be fair I don't think the EU or UK will hoard unused supply. But that moment will come later than just having the over-65s done.
The owner of this site described it as a great post so I thought it was worth seeing again.
You did right. Flawed but at the same time articulate and insightful. Ditto their follow up post when they got tumbling with the energetic and diligent Philip Thompson construct. It's certainly a useful counterview to what has been something of an orgy of "We're great, they're shit. Thank fuck we're out!" sentiment. The main point is a good one, I think. There is a disturbing amount of nationalistic propaganda pumped out these "Boris" and "Brexity" days, and there is a disturbingly large and receptive domestic audience for it. I personally don't think it's in the same ballpark as the Trumpian side of America, nevertheless it is something all those who are not sold on National Populism as the way forward should be anxious about.
He lost it when he said that America was merely "wounded" by Trump, but the UK is irretreviably broken. Not somebody who's been paying much attention to the USA is perhaps the charitable explanation.
I did say "flawed" and that is the biggest of them. You know my feelings about Trump and the damage he has done. I yield to nobody on it. Damage not just to America, btw, but globally. I think the Role Model aspect of having such a person in the highest elected office on the planet is not discussed and appreciated as much as it ought to be. His administration's policies were the least toxic thing about Donald Trump. Indeed many can be respectably supported. His legacy is not that. His legacy is his corrupting impact on hearts & minds.
EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."
UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."
EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"
A side point on all this. How much does it in part come down to the fact that the UK have its own currency and can borrow what they want to fund things?
The EU approach to vaccine procurement has been more akin to buying a carpet in a Moroccan bizarre.....they approached it like they have time to spend playing a silly haggling game and even when told the price is now the absolute rock bottom price, they still continued, despite the trader getting out the receipts from the factory to show them that he wasn't ripping them off.
While the UK government put up a load of money for the carpet factories themselves.
EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."
UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."
EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"
That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:
"However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."
The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.
It's good to know that for all the talk, the UK Govt appear to have been very clearheaded about what was happening in the US.
Well, there's always been this lazy assumption in some quarters that Trump and Johnson are birds of a feather, but whilst they're both flawed they're clearly also different personalities. Nor is Johnson stupid.
His Government, and those of his predecessors, have been walking a tightrope for the past four years - trying to maintain good relations with the Trump White House, without getting too close and becoming embroiled in any of his controversies in the process. I'm inclined to believe what the ex-head of the civil service said earlier in the month, when he claimed that Johnson would be relieved that Biden had won. The new President might not necessarily agree with the Prime Minister on everything, but they do share important common goals and Biden is stable and predictable, thank God.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Frank don't be a silly boy. Living in a member country of the EU does not mean you live in a fictional country called the EU. We have plenty of vaccines by the way , we have paid up front for them and have cast iron contracts. Toodlepip.
Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
I know where I live Max and who the government are, perhaps you should be trying to educate Frank rather than myself. He does not seem to understand that Scotland is in fact still in the UK and has paid upfront for our vaccines via our government using our money.
The Scottish government led vaccine procurement for Scotland?
Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
I'll take that as a no.
We would be in far better shape if they had been running the show for sure and much less largesse for the chumocracy.
Well the Scottish government is in charge of the roll out of the vaccine Malcolm and they are bloody slow. They were also in charge of testing where we again lagged behind the rest of the UK substantially.
And so far as I can see the chumocracy has currently provided:
The third highest level of testing per million of any large or medium sized country in the world. The first approved vaccine. A remarkably high strike rate in vaccines that we invested in. Massive domestic production created almost from scratch to protect ourselves from fools such as the EU. The best roll out of vaccines of any large country in the world and better than all except Israel of medium sized countries.
It does rather suggest to me that part of the Scottish problem is that Nicola's chums are useless twats like the last 2 health secretaries.
EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."
UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."
EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
“We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
The EU's statements appear to be geared towards having been a passive purchaser of vaccines. "We'll buy what we need, but not hoard them where we don't really need it". The idea that they could have had a substantial part to play in actively investing to expand supply seems to have passed them by.
To be fair I don't think the EU or UK will hoard unused supply. But that moment will come later than just having the over-65s done.
My point was that the EU's approach was the idea that there was a fixed supply, and they would only procure "their share". The UK's approach is that supply was ultimately unlimited, but they had to invest to bring that about. Even more so for a vaccine being delivered at cost.
And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
Well it does say "unlike EU member states". Not surprising it'd be less flexible for non-members.
It would be good to think that the government examined the fine print and weighted up the pros and cons, before making the (correct) decision that participation wasn’t in our interest.
Rather than just seeing ‘EU’ in the title of the scheme and steering clear, the right outcome being luck rather than judgement.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
“We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”
Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
No, they've ordered enough for everyone and then some.
When the Government decide to play the vaccine, one-upmanship game... where did they expect it to end?
Yes, yes it must always be our fault
You haven’t answered the question, when the Government decided to taunt the EU... what was their end-in-mind? Surely they factored in the risk of supply interruptions making the taunts even more antagonistic... so why did they do it?
So one minister pointing out how successful the vaccine program he is partly responsible for justifies banning vaccine exports? What planet do you live on?
You’re not answering the question, why did Hancock decide it was appropriate to taunt Europe? He did it more than once. It was clearly a deliberate choice... so what was their end-game?
Do you understand the word politics
Everyone does it
Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
It isn't crass it is contrast. Every Government and Opposition has always made contrasts when it favours themselves. Bog standard.
You also have to put that Tweet in the context of the media, that at the time seemed to be reporting virtually nothing on the comparative success of the UK rollout (whilst of course ghoulishly majoring on failures). This was certainly my experience when I broached it with the small circle I speak to regularly at the moment. Hardly surprising then that those concerned take to social media to trumpet the success.
Joelinton an idiot for sharing haircut photo, barber says
A barber to the stars has called a Premier League ace an "idiot" for sharing a photo of an illegal haircut.
Stylist Tom Baxter cut Newcastle United forward Joelinton's hair on Friday, but the Brazilian footballer shared a photograph of the moment on Instagram.
The celebrity crimper said it was obvious many footballers were getting professional cuts done, adding that if "I didn't do it someone else would".
"He pointed out that Joelinton's visit was part of a photoshoot which could be allowed under the rules, although the stylist said he "should not have done it" and Joelinton was an "idiot" for putting it on social media."
Yeah yeah, course it was.....just like all the Instagram models are out in the Middle East on essential business.
Comments
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/
A very good article on the EU vaccine situation. 3 takeaways:
1) The EU seemed a little fixated on being anti-Trump
2) They wanted companies producing the vaccine to be criminally liable for problems
3) The need to continually get agreement of 27 members is very cumbersome
On the issue of liability I'm rather ashamed to say I do not know who has been responsible for the clinical trials. Is it the vaccine producers themselves? If so that doesn't seem right. Government should have verified the efficacy independently.
Though I would contend the unionists have done it to themselves by being so crap that all the MP's are SNP.
But if you're right I'm not sure what would change.
*By “sure”, I mean “absolutely certain that they, in fact, will completely ignore all of this”, unfortunately.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/6196499/nicola-sturgeon-popular-england-boris-johnson/
This would be partially solved imo if there were a 'Scotland first' party, for and run in Scotland and not affiliated to the main parties but wishing to remain in the UK. A DUP for Scotland. They would be able to enter coalition with any other party, and the chances are they would be in power more than out of it. However, we are where we are. Even the latest party in Scotland 'Reform UK' is a Farage offshoot. That won't do anything.
Hopefully things pick up next week.
“Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/30/half-friends-is-not-a-concept-uk-should-decide-who-its-allies-are-says-macron
Not ones that accuse their mates of starting a war when things go wrong for them?
Seriously, I don't take comments from a French President about the UK PM, or vice versa, seriously, since it's such an easy way to play to the crowd. If I were French I'd be immediately suspcious when I heard such talk.
“Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible."
I mean, there's truth in that. But there's no way he's dumb enough to not see that he does the same thing.
Though I doubt that the Scottish Government will want to negotiate the rump UK Government owning 90% of Holyrood. If they do then fair enough.
I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
- Pfizer vaccinations commenced earlier
- The logistics of Pfizer are harder so there are limitations on its use (so for example, AZ is used for vaccinations in carehomes etc)
"However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."
The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.
On the other, good explanation for why we are probably going to be lumbered with something not too far off lockdown for quite a long time.
We could really, really do with a repetition of last year's Spring, weather wise: not only would it help to slaughter the Plague bug, it'd allow us to get out and have some respite from cold and rain and endless boring days stuck inside in front of screens. Because we're probably not getting most of the leisure and hospitality businesses (or what's left of them anyway) back until well into the Summer.
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1281499566567825408?s=20
The current approach is all geared towards squashing the prevalence of COVID as much as possible and attempting to minimize the worst outcomes among the largest number of people.
All we as individuals can do is accept a jab when offered and try to follow the rules as best we can, and realise that regardless of being given the Pfizer of AZN vaccine, we don't have an invincibility shield, and certainly not for many weeks, and it is potentially still possible to pass it on to others.
Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."
UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."
EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"
https://twitter.com/TimOBrien/status/1355505534842105859
While the UK government put up a load of money for the carpet factories themselves.
His Government, and those of his predecessors, have been walking a tightrope for the past four years - trying to maintain good relations with the Trump White House, without getting too close and becoming embroiled in any of his controversies in the process. I'm inclined to believe what the ex-head of the civil service said earlier in the month, when he claimed that Johnson would be relieved that Biden had won. The new President might not necessarily agree with the Prime Minister on everything, but they do share important common goals and Biden is stable and predictable, thank God.
And so far as I can see the chumocracy has currently provided:
The third highest level of testing per million of any large or medium sized country in the world.
The first approved vaccine.
A remarkably high strike rate in vaccines that we invested in.
Massive domestic production created almost from scratch to protect ourselves from fools such as the EU.
The best roll out of vaccines of any large country in the world and better than all except Israel of medium sized countries.
It does rather suggest to me that part of the Scottish problem is that Nicola's chums are useless twats like the last 2 health secretaries.
UK bit from https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-government-vaccine-rollout-liability-costs-085553962.html
Rather than just seeing ‘EU’ in the title of the scheme and steering clear, the right outcome being luck rather than judgement.
Joelinton an idiot for sharing haircut photo, barber says
A barber to the stars has called a Premier League ace an "idiot" for sharing a photo of an illegal haircut.
Stylist Tom Baxter cut Newcastle United forward Joelinton's hair on Friday, but the Brazilian footballer shared a photograph of the moment on Instagram.
The celebrity crimper said it was obvious many footballers were getting professional cuts done, adding that if "I didn't do it someone else would".
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-55870959
"He pointed out that Joelinton's visit was part of a photoshoot which could be allowed under the rules, although the stylist said he "should not have done it" and Joelinton was an "idiot" for putting it on social media."
Yeah yeah, course it was.....just like all the Instagram models are out in the Middle East on essential business.