In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
A government buying something is not the same as an export ban. That is like saying that there is an export ban on the fuel in the PM’s plane.
A government buying something that has already been sold to someone else might be similar, but that was not the case here.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
Contracted was open to everyone, the EU could have contracted with AZ that the initial doses made in the UK went to the EU.
Imposed, by some form of law, was only open to the UK govt.
So it is quite a big difference, although I take your point that the EU political view is unlikely to care about that difference.
Sowing the wind, as Boris did over 'we'll break the law if we think it's right to do so', generally leads to reaping the whirlwind. That's not to say that I think any Government, or supranational body, has behaved particularly well, certainly in hindsight, over the pandemic.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?
Pillock.
Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.
Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
Have a look at Malcy's post. It's fairly pithily expressed but perfectly reasonably argued.
Carnyx, I was not doffing my cap to Boris enough for allowing us a few vials of vaccine, as ever they pull out the Little Englander inferiority complex and try to say I am being anti-English. They don't like the truth as you see and lash out when their odious behaviour is pointed out to them.
For work, I'm helping a small business to launch a food brand. I was wondering if anyone (particularly our legal beagles) knew of a good source of info online (or a book potentially) on trademark law. The person's name is already a registered trade mark, and I am exploring whether we can add some supplementary words to be able to register our brand name. This is not a request for free legal advice - we will get professional help in due course.
I think it depends on what sectors the existing trademark already covers.
If his name is used for food you are going to be on a losing battle to begin with.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
"The rules also back-date to three months ago, giving Brussels the ability to snoop on past vaccine shipments after Brussels accused AstraZeneca of sending doses meant for Europe to Britain."
What's the betting they find that the UK has already had more than its fair share...by the nature we approved it faster, we will have been getting more deliveries.
I'm not taking that bet - we know that Pfizer has reduced production in February as they are scaling up and the only stock that is available for the EU to take is Pfizer's because we were never due to receive anything else.
Which means either EU are going to try and ignore the rules they created yesterday or its really going to blow up and all our papers will be accusing the EU of killing our pensioners.
Which might actually be true if the second dose is required and people don't receive it.
My guess is the UK will now have to implement a safety first strategy and stop using Pfizer for first jabs, saving whatever we have left for 2nd jabs and so it will directly affect the maximum number of jabs we can do per day.
A move that will kill more grannys. All because the EU want a distraction from their own failings
Guardian reported that the 'audits' had not found anything.
They really are determined to make themselves look really stupid, how thick can they actually be.
It wsa a very strange move if they did not have genuine reason for suspicion, and apparently they didn't. I mean, a war of words is just that, with words, you don't take action unless it will support your position if you can help it.
Would that not be the EU version of the so-called "Security Theatre". You know - Blair's tanks at Heathrow, police helos where they can't be relevant and so on?
This is a serious diplomatic incident caused by a supply problem. We are seeing more and more vaccines come on line and production will increase. With the underlying cause gone then the diplomatic tension will ease.
The problem is that this will not happen quickly. In addition, the vaccine distribution chain in Europe has simply not been setup (apart from Germany, to an extent) to do a rapid roll out.
This structure has been planned and setup in the UK since the vaccine ordering started. It can't just be magic'd up in 10 minutes.
One of the problems of good governmental action is that it makes it look easy. Take American foreign policy after Bush I.....
The more immediate problem is that there risks being a massive ramp up in deaths before anyone in the EU see that ramp up in vaccines. Already Portugal is looking horrendous, Spain not far behind. It is difficult to see much soothing balm being poured on the underlying cause for the EU going bat-shit crazy this week.
For work, I'm helping a small business to launch a food brand. I was wondering if anyone (particularly our legal beagles) knew of a good source of info online (or a book potentially) on trademark law. The person's name is already a registered trade mark, and I am exploring whether we can add some supplementary words to be able to register our brand name. This is not a request for free legal advice - we will get professional help in due course.
I think Kerly's Law of Trademarks and Trade Names is still the go to text. Its now in its 16th edition and no doubt there will be another one post Brexit. Its more a field I have come across than know a lot about though and there may be more "user friendly" texts that can be recommended.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?
Pillock.
Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.
Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
Have a look at Malcy's post. It's fairly pithily expressed but perfectly reasonably argued.
Carnyx, I was not doffing my cap to Boris enough for allowing us a few vials of vaccine, as ever they pull out the Little Englander inferiority complex and try to say I am being anti-English. They don't like the truth as you see and lash out when their odious behaviour is pointed out to them.
"a few vials of vaccine" = your pro rata share.
We know your Scottish exceptionalism dictates you should have way more than England, but you'll have to make do with your fair share.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
And that is where this months Pfizer delivery gets interesting.
We want and are expecting X amount, the EU is expecting Y amount, but combined production and deliveries this month is less than Y.
So will the EU let Pfizer export anything to us?
That is the unknown question, some people on here say the EU will let Pfizer export to the UK, others on here (and some papers) say the EU will block Pfizer's export.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
That's unkind Malcolm. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country as wonderful as the United Kingdom. We should recognise our blessings and not be so smug about it.
Cute the way you turn the Brexit arguments against us.
Are you actually saying that the EU just is so mega powerful that we'll essentially be in it for ever, even after leaving, so what was the point?
Launching my new service of explaining one poster's post to another poster -
It is highlighting the irony of leavers continuing to blame the EU for our problems after we have left the EU when one of the main arguments used by leavers for leaving was that we would no longer be able to blame the EU for our problems.
Service is free of charge for 90 days, after which a modest direct debit will be required.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Except that one was before the fact, written into the contract, and justified by substantial upfront investment and taking on of financial risk.
The other was after the fact, and (if imposed) independent of any contractual agreement.
The EU's entire approach has been to try to prioritise low cost through exploitation of buying power, with little pro-active engagement to advance the production of the vaccine. The UK even provided the cash up front. The EU is paying on delivery.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
Are you sure? Wasn't that what this weeks announcement of the production site in Livingston was?
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?
Pillock.
Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.
Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
Have a look at Malcy's post. It's fairly pithily expressed but perfectly reasonably argued.
Carnyx, I was not doffing my cap to Boris enough for allowing us a few vials of vaccine, as ever they pull out the Little Englander inferiority complex and try to say I am being anti-English. They don't like the truth as you see and lash out when their odious behaviour is pointed out to them.
It is not even a Little Englander complex, it is the notion that incumbent good fortune has to be heralded as Johnson genius, and a moment of "Johnson genius" allows him a free pass for what has gone on before.
Government's normally take the rough with the smooth, but it seems for Johnson we can only claim the smooth and discard the rough (even if he has had a direct and personal hand in a failure).
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
We know that the PROCESS of STARTING production of vaccines has commenced in Scotland. The UK Prime Minister came up to Scotland this week - presumably to check you weren't fucking it up.....
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
You weren't on my "naughty list".
He is the fool from your previous post Pete. A moron who complains and yet has gone to live in the EU, you could not make it up.
Maybe he was there before the EU was ever a "thing" ?
He must be some age then given how he went on about spending his life teaching here before retiring to get the benefits of the EU. Suppose he could have retired at 50 and be in his 90's but highly unlikely as in those days it would have meant no pension.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
You are right that England has no production of its own. The UK, on the other hand, does have because it paid for it.
There was a case to be made for the UK to leave the EU and that could have been made civilly, but but for years UKIP, the Tory right and their media cheerleaders chose to vilify and insult the EU, spreading misinformation and lies in the process.
It is the manner in which the Brexiteers won that has resulted in far more hostility than was necessary from the other 27 members. Bashing Britain now plays well all over the rest of Europe as the vaccination row has shown.
We are where we are and I doubt the EU would ever accept us rejoining even if we were ever to ask. For better or worse we have burnt our bridges. Perhaps that was the intention all along.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
It would be a whole lot easier and equitable if vaccine companies licensed other companies all over the world to make the vaccines. This would be so much more effective and take the xenophobia out of the mix.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
Contracted was open to everyone, the EU could have contracted with AZ that the initial doses made in the UK went to the EU.
Imposed, by some form of law, was only open to the UK govt.
So it is quite a big difference, although I take your point that the EU political view is unlikely to care about that difference.
The EU could have got a far greater supply from Astrazeneca, and probably still could, if it invested in production facilities on the continent. They could have used some of the theoretical vast saving due to the price difference between AZN and Pfizer.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
That is utter desperate bollocks from someone so wedded to the EU that they cannot bear to conceive that they could be in the wrong over this. There is no comparison at all between a contract signed well in advance and a ban targeting a specific country to cover for the fact that those enacting the ban have been utterly inept at getting a vaccine programme in place.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
I think it's more that the EC do know that there's a difference, but in an attempt to deflect blame are whipping up populist outrage to try to justify their position. And naturally a substantial body of opinion is choosing to believe them. Although it is notable that they are being undermined somewhat by a fair bit of the serious press.
The EU is definitely being populist. It's something of a role reversal. They are supposed to be aloof and technocratic. Out of interest, I did a couple of surveys of the EU press on this. In general very negative to Astrazeneca. The Article 16 thing played badly in Ireland, but I think on the whole, the EC looks like it's getting support for shoring up its supplies.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Michael Gove isn't English Malc. And he is very much 'the brains' (God help us - everyone) behind the current Government.
Strange though it may seem as a Brexiteer, I do feel a little bit of sympathy for the Commission right now. Boris has had a large number of U-turns in the last year or so but most of them have been so rapid that they fall into the category of no harm done. This lack of vaccines situation will run and run.
Robert Smithson thinks the delay will only cost them 2 months but that has a huge impact. We know the new variant is spreading on the continent and Spain and Portugal in particular are really bad now. And there is the economic cost as well - if we can start opening up our economy in April while Europe is in lockdown.
What makes it so much worse for the Commission is:
1) The Spahn letter - Without this they could say they tried their best but weren't successful 2) The fact that Brexit Britain is doing so well - if it was Norway or Switzerland there wouldn't be the same edge to it.
While Eurocrats don't normally resign my view is that someone will have to go. Maybe Kyriakides will be pushed under the bus to save Ursula. It is worth remembering that the parliament were not keen on VDL as they wanted the Spitzenkandidat system to continue
I don't feel any sympathy for Macron or the Germans. They must know that we will likely get real world evidence in the next month or so for AZ. They should have said they will hang on for this. Without AZ, how exactly do they plan to vaccinate all their over 65s in good time?
At the moment we have the 3rd worst deaths per capita in Europe (after Belgium and Slovenia). I can't help but feel that with the anti-vaxxers that France will end up top of the pile in 6 months or so.
Mr. G, not sure a post with the phrases "I did not and have not ever been anti-English" and "Little Englander complex" is brimming with consistency.
MD, Can you deny that there are little Englanders abroad and particularly that many spend time on here. Unless blind , deaf and dumb I know the answer.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Of course you are anti-English. It runs through every comment you ever make on here. I am certainly anti-UK as I believe it is holding Scotland in an unwanted relationship but I fail to see how that makes me a Little Englander when everything I say on here is in support of Scottish Independence.
But like I say when you get to the point when even your friends and political allies are calling you out for your diatribes I would suggest it might be time to look to your own behaviour.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
It would be a whole lot easier and equitable if vaccine companies licensed other companies all over the world to make the vaccines. This would be so much more effective and take the xenophobia out of the mix.
For sure and you would wonder why not , easy money for them if they get a payment for each vial without having the hassle of having to produce it.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
It would be a whole lot easier and equitable if vaccine companies licensed other companies all over the world to make the vaccines. This would be so much more effective and take the xenophobia out of the mix.
They have done this - setting up plants all over the place, both owned directly by the parent companies and by partners. The ones in India are vast, for example.
The problem is that early production is uniformly patchy, due to the complexities of getting a bio-chemical process to scale to industrial volumes. When everything is up and running, the world will be awash with COVID vaccine production.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
You are right that England has no production of its own. The UK, on the other hand, does have because it paid for it.
Absolutely , hence my comment to MM on his odious post that "we" should stop providing Scotland with our vaccines was reprehensible and tantamount to encouraging killing of Scottish people because they had previously shown a preference to be part of the EU. One can wonder on who he classes as the "we".
For work, I'm helping a small business to launch a food brand. I was wondering if anyone (particularly our legal beagles) knew of a good source of info online (or a book potentially) on trademark law. The person's name is already a registered trade mark, and I am exploring whether we can add some supplementary words to be able to register our brand name. This is not a request for free legal advice - we will get professional help in due course.
I think Kerly's Law of Trademarks and Trade Names is still the go to text. Its now in its 16th edition and no doubt there will be another one post Brexit. Its more a field I have come across than know a lot about though and there may be more "user friendly" texts that can be recommended.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
A government buying something is not the same as an export ban. That is like saying that there is an export ban on the fuel in the PM’s plane.
A government buying something that has already been sold to someone else might be similar, but that was not the case here.
Unless all UK produced fuel goes to the PM's plane and fuel is in extreme shortage worldwide, the comparison doesn't really work, I'm afraid. The difference, if any, is between the UK government as the sole customer in the UK saying all UK production of this product needs to go to us as a customer - and the EU as a government authority saying all EU production of this product needs to go to us as a customer.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
You are repeatedly, obsessively and explicitly anti-English, Malc. Then, when you get called out on it, you make these same excuses "hate Unionists not the English", "don't understand the difference between England and the UK", "I'm not anti-English because Scottish Nationalists are not anti-Englis". There are plenty of Scottish Nationalists on here, like Carynx, who are not anti-English. You, on the other hand, most definately, without a shadow of a doubt, are. Examples occur every week. Then you launch into some ad-hominem tirade when you get called out on it or anything else.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
We know that the PROCESS of STARTING production of vaccines has commenced in Scotland. The UK Prime Minister came up to Scotland this week - presumably to check you weren't fucking it up.....
So now you admit to lying as well as promoting murder , it gets worse. Have you been gorging on cherry liquers or something.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
I think it's more that the EC do know that there's a difference, but in an attempt to deflect blame are whipping up populist outrage to try to justify their position. And naturally a substantial body of opinion is choosing to believe them. Although it is notable that they are being undermined somewhat by a fair bit of the serious press.
The EU is definitely being populist. It's something of a role reversal. They are supposed to be aloof and technocratic. Out of interest, I did a couple of surveys of the EU press on this. In general very negative to Astrazeneca. The Article 16 thing played badly in Ireland, but I think on the whole, the EC looks like it's getting support for shoring up its supplies.
How does any of that help people suffering and dying of COVID in the EU?
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
It would be a whole lot easier and equitable if vaccine companies licensed other companies all over the world to make the vaccines. This would be so much more effective and take the xenophobia out of the mix.
For sure and you would wonder why not , easy money for them if they get a payment for each vial without having the hassle of having to produce it.
Sadly, producing vaccines is not a simple as that. Scaling such processes from the lab to industrial plant volumes requires a lot of hard work. You can't simply give someone a formula and say "make that".
Your last comment about easy money is a common mistake - outsourcing like that only makes sense if you are producing a standardised, commodity product. In this case the vaccine creators have to work closely with the production organisations. Otherwise no vaccine....
The various companies have partnered with production companies and governments around the world to build new facilities and adapt old ones. If all of them work, the world will have a surplus of COVID vaccine.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Michael Gove isn't English Malc. And he is very much 'the brains' (God help us - everyone) behind the current Government.
There is a shortage of people making their name in devolved-country politics and then moving into UK politics though. In a properly functioning devolved state this would be the norm.
As a postscript, I think this also shows how appearances can be deceptive. A few months back people were saying how VDL was so well dressed and professional, and comparing against Frost and Johnson.
I sometimes feel that some of the hatred for Boris on he remainer side comes from the fact that he doesn't look like a typical politician. He looks like a buffoon therefore he must be a buffoon. And so when things go his way he must be "lucky". My view is that Boris is a very smart guy who plays the buffoon so his opponents underestimate him.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
Are you sure? Wasn't that what this weeks announcement of the production site in Livingston was?
Unless all the press reports were false .......... Large-scale coronavirus vaccine manufacturing begins in Scotland
Valneva begins large-scale vaccine manufacturing at its Livingston site in West Lothian.
For work, I'm helping a small business to launch a food brand. I was wondering if anyone (particularly our legal beagles) knew of a good source of info online (or a book potentially) on trademark law. The person's name is already a registered trade mark, and I am exploring whether we can add some supplementary words to be able to register our brand name. This is not a request for free legal advice - we will get professional help in due course.
I think Kerly's Law of Trademarks and Trade Names is still the go to text. Its now in its 16th edition and no doubt there will be another one post Brexit. Its more a field I have come across than know a lot about though and there may be more "user friendly" texts that can be recommended.
Brilliant, TY.
Bagged a copy on Amazon for 10 quid, one seller is charging £850!
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Thank you for confirming that Scotland does not yet have any production of its own, and so has to be sent the vaccines from eleswhere.
The idea that Scotland is benefitting from some patronising charity from England is what is so risible. We have throughout treated the UK as four entities each getting their pro rata share of what limited vaccine supply we have. Each administration can answer for how they have rolled that out. Some better than others.
You absolute bellend , England does not either. Private companies produce the vaccine not ENGLAND. Also just to highlight further your total and utter ignorance , vaccines are produced in Scotland.
Are you sure? Wasn't that what this weeks announcement of the production site in Livingston was?
Unless all the press reports were false .......... Large-scale coronavirus vaccine manufacturing begins in Scotland
Valneva begins large-scale vaccine manufacturing at its Livingston site in West Lothian.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
That's unkind Malcolm. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country as wonderful as the United Kingdom. We should recognise our blessings and not be so smug about it.
David, UK is a political concept , not a country. However as you say all countries of the political concept are indeed wonderful and it is a joy to live in one of them, especially today when the sun is shining and sky is blue. PS: hard to take him seriously when he chooses to live in EU and then whines about it, why not emigrate back to England if he thinks it is so bad there.
Mr. G, as I said during the referendum campaign, amid the tittering of some (not you in mind), the use of terms like 'little England' is just plain stupid. It's antagonistic and does nothing to enlighten a debate or point out flaws in a position. [As an aside, when you mentioned that Scotch was offensive to Scots I desisted using the expression which I think I'd only used once after reading it here].
It's a more insulting version of the equally content-free 'progressive' which (excepting a specific meaning regarding taxation) is a barely grown-up version of 'goodies'.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Fuck off, your humourless twat. We are supposed to treat malcy's "the few left" with reverence now are we?
Pillock.
Posts like yours are a good reason to vacate this site for a while.
Unpleasant, to say the least, and what fool has given it a like?
Interesting that you make that comment about MM's understandable reply and not about Malcolm's original post.
Have a look at Malcy's post. It's fairly pithily expressed but perfectly reasonably argued.
Carnyx, I was not doffing my cap to Boris enough for allowing us a few vials of vaccine, as ever they pull out the Little Englander inferiority complex and try to say I am being anti-English. They don't like the truth as you see and lash out when their odious behaviour is pointed out to them.
"a few vials of vaccine" = your pro rata share.
We know your Scottish exceptionalism dictates you should have way more than England, but you'll have to make do with your fair share.
We Scots are scrupulously fair and would never like some expect to get any more than our fair and equal share.
A question for those arguing that the EU's vaccine procurement would have been much better if only we were still in it. It always occurred to me that one could argue that the Windrush Scandal could partly be attributed to our membership of the EU. The inability of the Tory government to control immigration from the EU resulted in their hardline approach to anyone else who could be kicked out the country if they didn't have the correct documents.
Personally, I wouldn't argue that. I'd argue that the Windrush Scandal was a result of a pretty odious politician (Theresa May) positioning herself for a future leadership bid. But just wondered how others see it.
Absolutely , hence my comment to MM on his odious post that "we" should stop providing Scotland with our vaccines was reprehensible and tantamount to encouraging killing of Scottish people because they had previously shown a preference to be part of the EU. One can wonder on who he classes as the "we".
As a postscript, I think this also shows how appearances can be deceptive. A few months back people were saying how VDL was so well dressed and professional, and comparing against Frost and Johnson.
I sometimes feel that some of the hatred for Boris on he remainer side comes from the fact that he doesn't look like a typical politician. He looks like a buffoon therefore he must be a buffoon. And so when things go his way he must be "lucky". My view is that Boris is a very smart guy who plays the buffoon so his opponents underestimate him.
No - the hatred comes from the fact that many thought he was a EuroSceptic, but a Remainer. They believe that his "defection" to the Leaver camp was the reason for Leave winning the referendum. So Boris is *personally* responsible for Brexit, in this view.
Strange though it may seem as a Brexiteer, I do feel a little bit of sympathy for the Commission right now. Boris has had a large number of U-turns in the last year or so but most of them have been so rapid that they fall into the category of no harm done. This lack of vaccines situation will run and run.
Robert Smithson thinks the delay will only cost them 2 months but that has a huge impact. We know the new variant is spreading on the continent and Spain and Portugal in particular are really bad now. And there is the economic cost as well - if we can start opening up our economy in April while Europe is in lockdown.
What makes it so much worse for the Commission is:
1) The Spahn letter - Without this they could say they tried their best but weren't successful 2) The fact that Brexit Britain is doing so well - if it was Norway or Switzerland there wouldn't be the same edge to it.
While Eurocrats don't normally resign my view is that someone will have to go. Maybe Kyriakides will be pushed under the bus to save Ursula. It is worth remembering that the parliament were not keen on VDL as they wanted the Spitzenkandidat system to continue
I don't feel any sympathy for Macron or the Germans. They must know that we will likely get real world evidence in the next month or so for AZ. They should have said they will hang on for this. Without AZ, how exactly do they plan to vaccinate all their over 65s in good time?
At the moment we have the 3rd worst deaths per capita in Europe (after Belgium and Slovenia). I can't help but feel that with the anti-vaxxers that France will end up top of the pile in 6 months or so.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the people of the EU countries but none for the EU itself nor, in the main the governments or the member countries. They have, not for the first time, attempted to get vital services and products on the cheap (just as they do with failing to support their own defence in NATO) and have singularly failed to play their part in supporting the rest of the world by putting their hands sufficiently deeply into their pockets to pay for vaccines (just as they did during the Syrian refugee crisis). They have fallen back on the old monolithic habits of threats and bullying to try and get their way when they failed to get it by proper planning and investment. And they have added incompetence and arrogance to their list of failings.
The EU as an institution deserves all it gets and far more as a consequence of their idiocy. The people of the EU do not.
This in no way excuses the failings of our own Government which have been as bad if not worse but just because one government does stupid things doesn't mean everyone else is supposed to follow them. Managing to make Johnson look good takes a real expert in idiocy.
I think what should concern us most now is not that EU leaders have made mistakes, that is clear enough, but that the UK now lives in a separate information space. The way the UK is processing information is increasingly irrational. The feral British press continues to launch wild and inaccurate claims that are not based on objective facts but the hostility of black propaganda. Playing a zero sum game with the EU is crazy when the Tories have managed to undermine the entire network of alliances we have relied on for decades, both in the EU and beyond. So, by all means create a hullabaloo about vaccines and ignore the staggering 100,000+ UK death toll the total ineptitude of the UK Covid response and of course the increasingly catastrophic economic numbers. Whip up hatred of whoever you choose, but understand you are being manipulated by black propaganda and the price of this may well be fatal to your entire democratic tradition. There is no real hostility in the EU towards the UK, but there is increasingly a mixture of pity and alarm at the unhinged way huge sections of the UK media are determined to use any excuse to trash the UK/EU relationship. It is now a significant working assumption in several EU capitals that the UK will not survive the next decade. Beyond a few whiny articles from the likes of Gordon Brown, I don't see much alarm about the existential threat to your whole country. You might have thought that the Political/PR-Media complex of the likes of Gove, Cummings and - Yes- Johnson have caused sufficient damage. It seems not. Rabble rousing rubbish now seems the default option and I now genuinely fear that black propaganda is going to destroy the country. Trump is gone, but the increasingly unhinged way the UK media shapes the debate is destroying courtesy and even truth and that is a sure-fire way to a very dark place.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
Don't disagree with this in general. Although the European argument with Astrazeneca was that the EU did provide a lot of upfront money to make capacity available only for that company to turn round and say, sorry we can't provide the doses as stated because we are prevented by an exclusivity clause with the UK government. I suspect there will be lessons learnt on that.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
As a postscript, I think this also shows how appearances can be deceptive. A few months back people were saying how VDL was so well dressed and professional, and comparing against Frost and Johnson.
I sometimes feel that some of the hatred for Boris on he remainer side comes from the fact that he doesn't look like a typical politician. He looks like a buffoon therefore he must be a buffoon. And so when things go his way he must be "lucky". My view is that Boris is a very smart guy who plays the buffoon so his opponents underestimate him.
He certainly plays the buffoon so his opponents underestimate him. Is he very smart? Probably not, but he is an expert on politics and acting.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Is there any indication how long this "pause" is going to last? It seems to affecting more and more EU countries and is presumably the source of yesterday's panic.
Possibly another week. I think people here are very resigned sadly. There is scandal about people queue-jumping but little else.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Michael Gove isn't English Malc. And he is very much 'the brains' (God help us - everyone) behind the current Government.
Lucky , that does totally prove my point that it is only the worst and most stupid of English people who reach the top in politics, given they put that reptile in charge of anything.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
Don't disagree with this in general. Although the European argument with Astrazeneca was that the EU did provide a lot of upfront money to make capacity available only for that company to turn round and say, sorry we can't provide the doses as stated because we are prevented by an exclusivity clause with the UK government. I suspect there will be lessons learnt on that.
If that's the European Commission's argument (it's not the one i've been hearing) then they've not been making it very loudly or convincingly or with evidence to back it up.
A question for those arguing that the EU's vaccine procurement would have been much better if only we were still in it. It always occurred to me that one could argue that the Windrush Scandal could partly be attributed to our membership of the EU. The inability of the Tory government to control immigration from the EU resulted in their hardline approach to anyone else who could be kicked out the country if they didn't have the correct documents.
Personally, I wouldn't argue that. I'd argue that the Windrush Scandal was a result of a pretty odious politician (Theresa May) positioning herself for a future leadership bid. But just wondered how others see it.
I think your assessment of May is spot on and the EU have no blame at all in the Windrush scandal. The scandal was not in being concerned about immigration but in being so utterly incompetent and vindictive as to target innocent people to try and hide her failings in other directions.
And no, the EU's vaccine procurement would not have been better if we were still a member. Either we would have gone our own way - which would have meant things developing exactly the same way as they have for the rest of the EU - or we would have joined in with ceding our control to the EU as the other countries have done and would have suffered in the same way they have.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
Don't disagree with this in general. Although the European argument with Astrazeneca was that the EU did provide a lot of upfront money to make capacity available only for that company to turn round and say, sorry we can't provide the doses as stated because we are prevented by an exclusivity clause with the UK government. I suspect there will be lessons learnt on that.
The EU money was spent on the EU plants. That was specified in the contracts. The UK government money was spent, surprisingly (not), on the plant(s) in the UK.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
That's unkind Malcolm. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country as wonderful as the United Kingdom. We should recognise our blessings and not be so smug about it.
David, UK is a political concept , not a country. However as you say all countries of the political concept are indeed wonderful and it is a joy to live in one of them, especially today when the sun is shining and sky is blue. PS: hard to take him seriously when he chooses to live in EU and then whines about it, why not emigrate back to England if he thinks it is so bad there.
Blue skies? Lucky Ayrshire. We are getting snow showers again and had another 2-3 inches overnight.
The UK's standing as a political concept seems to me much enhanced by recent developments. It will be interesting to see if this is reflected in the polling.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
You are repeatedly, obsessively and explicitly anti-English, Malc. Then, when you get called out on it, you make these same excuses "hate Unionists not the English", "don't understand the difference between England and the UK", "I'm not anti-English because Scottish Nationalists are not anti-Englis". There are plenty of Scottish Nationalists on here, like Carynx, who are not anti-English. You, on the other hand, most definately, without a shadow of a doubt, are. Examples occur every week. Then you launch into some ad-hominem tirade when you get called out on it or anything else.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
Don't disagree with this in general. Although the European argument with Astrazeneca was that the EU did provide a lot of upfront money to make capacity available only for that company to turn round and say, sorry we can't provide the doses as stated because we are prevented by an exclusivity clause with the UK government. I suspect there will be lessons learnt on that.
Um no. If that were the case then it would indicate that the EU were relying on the investment made by the British Government in vaccine development and production rather than investing enough money themselves. They may have provided some money but it should be patently obvious from just looking at the raw figures that they were not investing anywhere near enough. When the UK and US are investing 7 times more per head than the EU the the obvious question is what the hell did they think was going to happen?
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Of course you are anti-English. It runs through every comment you ever make on here. I am certainly anti-UK as I believe it is holding Scotland in an unwanted relationship but I fail to see how that makes me a Little Englander when everything I say on here is in support of Scottish Independence.
But like I say when you get to the point when even your friends and political allies are calling you out for your diatribes I would suggest it might be time to look to your own behaviour.
You voted to leave the EU and want to get rid of Scotland from the UK, seems pretty Little Englander to me
I think what should concern us most now is not that EU leaders have made mistakes, that is clear enough, but that the UK now lives in a separate information space. The way the UK is processing information is increasingly irrational. The feral British press continues to launch wild and inaccurate claims that are not based on objective facts but the hostility of black propaganda. Playing a zero sum game with the EU is crazy when the Tories have managed to undermine the entire network of alliances we have relied on for decades, both in the EU and beyond. So, by all means create a hullabaloo about vaccines and ignore the staggering 100,000+ UK death toll the total ineptitude of the UK Covid response and of course the increasingly catastrophic economic numbers. Whip up hatred of whoever you choose, but understand you are being manipulated by black propaganda and the price of this may well be fatal to your entire democratic tradition. There is no real hostility in the EU towards the UK, but there is increasingly a mixture of pity and alarm at the unhinged way huge sections of the UK media are determined to use any excuse to trash the UK/EU relationship. It is now a significant working assumption in several EU capitals that the UK will not survive the next decade. Beyond a few whiny articles from the likes of Gordon Brown, I don't see much alarm about the existential threat to your whole country. You might have thought that the Political/PR-Media complex of the likes of Gove, Cummings and - Yes- Johnson have caused sufficient damage. It seems not. Rabble rousing rubbish now seems the default option and I now genuinely fear that black propaganda is going to destroy the country. Trump is gone, but the increasingly unhinged way the UK media shapes the debate is destroying courtesy and even truth and that is a sure-fire way to a very dark place.
A post which contains many of the same faults which are attributed to the British media.
We need a national leaders' Top Trumps deck of cards.
Who could have predicted that Macron would Top Trump even Trump?
VDL was known to be 14/10 on the Gavin Williamson Scale. Unfortunately the job she had, turned out not to be a pointless theatrical position to safely store the village idiot.
Macron was the acceptable face of populism, remember? An outsider, but the right kind of outsider. Unlike Sarkosy - who was a bit.... outside The Proper People.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
I think it's more that the EC do know that there's a difference, but in an attempt to deflect blame are whipping up populist outrage to try to justify their position. And naturally a substantial body of opinion is choosing to believe them. Although it is notable that they are being undermined somewhat by a fair bit of the serious press.
The EU is definitely being populist. It's something of a role reversal. They are supposed to be aloof and technocratic. Out of interest, I did a couple of surveys of the EU press on this. In general very negative to Astrazeneca. The Article 16 thing played badly in Ireland, but I think on the whole, the EC looks like it's getting support for shoring up its supplies.
How does any of that help people suffering and dying of COVID in the EU?
Has it been established whether the EU and the UK have contracted with the same company or with separate companies?
Even if Le Pen does win the first round next Spring, as now looks likely, Macron will still almost certainly win the runoff on the basis he is not Le Pen. Even if Le Pen gets close.
However the relatively low approval ratings for the President suggest if Les Republicains and the centre right picked a decent candidate and they managed to get to the second round against either Le Pen or Macron they would have a good chance of winning. At the moment the former Health Minister Xavier Bertrand, now President of the Regional Council of Hauts-de-France or Laurent Wauquiez, the President of Les Republicains from 2017 to 2019 or Francois Baroin, Fillon's Finance Minister, look the likeliest candidates from the centre right.
Barnier?
Not confirmed his interest so far but a Macron, Barnier and Le Pen race would be interesting
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Is there any indication how long this "pause" is going to last? It seems to affecting more and more EU countries and is presumably the source of yesterday's panic.
Possibly another week. I think people here are very resigned sadly. There is scandal about people queue-jumping but little else.
I am genuinely sorry to hear that. The delay in vaccination means more restrictions, more economic damage and more deaths. I would not wish it on anyone. The good news is that with the number of different vaccines now approved we will surely be awash with them by the middle of the year but that delay comes at a price.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Michael Gove isn't English Malc. And he is very much 'the brains' (God help us - everyone) behind the current Government.
There is a shortage of people making their name in devolved-country politics and then moving into UK politics though. In a properly functioning devolved state this would be the norm.
EVEL put paid to that even though the principle had been in place for a time before that. Tories always hated devolution and moved to make sure they would not have Scots in high places again , I personally don't count a reptile like Gove as being Scottish as he is a conniving slimeball who would take on any mantle to promote himself. Hence the drift to certain Independence as they have marginalised anything Scottish at Westminster and actively worked against devolution and Scotland. Acted very like the EU are acting at the moment trying to browbeat everyone. Basically I totally agree with you.
Wake up, thought I had the weirdest dream about our supposed friends and allies going absolutely ape shit to cover up their shortcomings - even to the point of putting huge pressure on the Western security system.
Turns on pc - turns out it wasn't a dream.
Still, at least we know exactly where we stand with them and can plan and act accordingly.
According to Scott and Olly the EU's behaviour is all our fault? Who knew!
Which is not what I said, but then again we should be used to Brexiteers playing fast and loose with the truth.
Pouring hatred and bile on our EU neighbours for years in order to achieve a political objective has consequences. Who knew!
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
Imposed or contracted? I dont know which, but there is a difference.
I don't think there is a difference. The effect is the same. More to the point I am trying to make, no-one in the EU thinks there is any difference. They just see vaccines go from the EU to the UK while they don't see them come the other way, and they don't think that's right. They are with the European Commission on this.
I think it's more that the EC do know that there's a difference, but in an attempt to deflect blame are whipping up populist outrage to try to justify their position. And naturally a substantial body of opinion is choosing to believe them. Although it is notable that they are being undermined somewhat by a fair bit of the serious press.
The EU is definitely being populist. It's something of a role reversal. They are supposed to be aloof and technocratic. Out of interest, I did a couple of surveys of the EU press on this. In general very negative to Astrazeneca. The Article 16 thing played badly in Ireland, but I think on the whole, the EC looks like it's getting support for shoring up its supplies.
How does any of that help people suffering and dying of COVID in the EU?
Has it been established whether the EU and the UK have contracted with the same company or with separate companies?
No, but as we all already know this isn't going to end up in court so I doubt we'll ever find out.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Is there any indication how long this "pause" is going to last? It seems to affecting more and more EU countries and is presumably the source of yesterday's panic.
Possibly another week. I think people here are very resigned sadly. There is scandal about people queue-jumping but little else.
Christ.
Is there anything happening to setup a mass vaccination campaign when the supplies do arrive?
We need a national leaders' Top Trumps deck of cards.
Who could have predicted that Macron would Top Trump even Trump?
VDL was known to be 14/10 on the Gavin Williamson Scale. Unfortunately the job she had, turned out not to be a pointless theatrical position to safely store the village idiot.
Macron was the acceptable face of populism, remember? An outsider, but the right kind of outsider. Unlike Sarkosy - who was a bit.... outside The Proper People.
Sarkozy was the first non ENA graduate since Mitterand who got to the Elysee and Mitterand only did not go as the ENA was founded after he had graduated.
Macron is not only ex ENA but ex Rothschilds too so highly elite in background (though he twice failed to gain admission to the École normale supérieure)
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
Don't disagree with this in general. Although the European argument with Astrazeneca was that the EU did provide a lot of upfront money to make capacity available only for that company to turn round and say, sorry we can't provide the doses as stated because we are prevented by an exclusivity clause with the UK government. I suspect there will be lessons learnt on that.
If that's the European Commission's argument (it's not the one i've been hearing) then they've not been making it very loudly or convincingly or with evidence to back it up.
It's definitely out there, which is why the EC wanted the contract published. The European argument is more with Astrazeneca, who they think acted in bad faith, than with the UK. The issue isn't so much whether the UK was right or wrong to have the exclusivity clause. The issue is whether the EU should achieve the same effect with an export ban.
I should add that I am personally doubtful about the export ban from an EU perspective, that it causes lots of grief without diverting a lot of vaccine to the EU. But I do challenge the idea widely shared here that people in the EUare clamouring for the heads of the EC because of it. The opposite, in fact. It's a populist move.
Mr. G, as I said during the referendum campaign, amid the tittering of some (not you in mind), the use of terms like 'little England' is just plain stupid. It's antagonistic and does nothing to enlighten a debate or point out flaws in a position. [As an aside, when you mentioned that Scotch was offensive to Scots I desisted using the expression which I think I'd only used once after reading it here].
It's a more insulting version of the equally content-free 'progressive' which (excepting a specific meaning regarding taxation) is a barely grown-up version of 'goodies'.
Popped back in at coffee time and oh dear, the arguiment is still running.
FWIW - I really do not think Malcy is anti-English. He's anti-the idea that some English have that they should dominate Scots over such things as referenda. But the English bit is incidental to that. That is a crucial difference. He woiuld be just the same if it were blue aliens with pink spots from Xlephier Prime dominating the UK asnd refusing indyref "just because they said so".
I'm reminded that back in - I think - November 2013, in the arguments in the runup to indyref 1 the Tories put out a coordinated assertion in the media that it was inherently anti-English and racist to criticise Tory policies. This surprised me a lot which is why I (sort of) remember the date. What next surprised me almost as much was how very, very quickly that attack line was shut down, I can only conjecture because the Tories themselves realised it was so implausible. (Probably also because it self-identified them as a party inherently alien to Scotland, which was daft given the existence of the SCUP.)
But words have meanings and have to be carefully handled - I've been careless on occasion and rightly pulled up for it by you at least once (IIRC). More generally: the comments on linguistic tells and so on earlier were interesting. I've been struck for some time now by the asymmetry of the, for want of a better word, banter on PB. Scots are always in tartan, and so on. And the Welsh do unspeakable things to sheep. But there isn't anything the other way back as such. Is it because there is no English identity, or is it too fragmented, or what?
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
That's unkind Malcolm. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country as wonderful as the United Kingdom. We should recognise our blessings and not be so smug about it.
David, UK is a political concept , not a country. However as you say all countries of the political concept are indeed wonderful and it is a joy to live in one of them, especially today when the sun is shining and sky is blue. PS: hard to take him seriously when he chooses to live in EU and then whines about it, why not emigrate back to England if he thinks it is so bad there.
As you keep talking about my life choices so much without a clue as to my background why don't you shove another turnip right up where the sun doesn't shine like in the rest of Scotland and stop telling posters what they can and cannot post. Wherever they live.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Well, I have been horrified by the mismanagement of the pandemic by the UK government so far (with the exception of vaccination) and I am equally horrified by the mess the EU have made in providing for their own citizens to be vaccinated. I don't understand why anyone would use either one of those to excuse the other.
Roger , you have been on here long enough to have heard the constant ringing of Jingo bells. Never mind the 6 figures dead , some on here just think Tories are awesome because we have some vaccines. Happy that they kill more than anyone with their incompetence and justify it all because we can jab the few left.
Can I suggest the Government stops sending any more vaccines to Scotland? Just to see what malcy with a propoer grievance looks like.
Of course, they don't need many anyway, because he's told us there's only a few left alive...
Hang on, that is not funny. It comes over as plain spiteful. Your comment is not the sort of thing we want on PB.
Moreover, are you really a Unionist too, or an English colonialist who thinks he owns Scotland (and Wales and NI)?
We are part of the Union too for the moment, and we paid for the vaccines too. You are behaving just as the EU are in your own eyes.
Actually that's a very telling comment "THE Government stops SENDING any more vaccines to Scotland"
There you have the reason why any self respecting Scot would say enough is enough
Especially in a week when Mr J has been to a vaccine factory in Scotland!
But yes, if one is a Unionist one has to behave like one (or stop sounding as if Scotland is either a colony or a different nation state). It's a pretty pass when Malcy and I are better Unionists than some of the PBTories and anti-indy types on this site.
Look to your own side Carynx. I am strongly pro-Independence for Scotland but even I find Malcolm's constant anti-English diatribes to be offensive and self defeating. It is no wonder that those who don't actually agree with Independence find him to be beyond tolerating. Malcolm loses the Independence side a lot of support which would otherwise be forthcoming from those South of the border who feel no particular affinity for the Union.
You obviously are unable to understand the difference between UK and England Richard, a common complaint on here even by those who profess support for Scotland. I did not and have not ever been anti-English, I am anti UK. The fact that the UK is run completely by English people who when they get into power seem to believe they can dictate to other people is the issue. Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
Of course you are anti-English. It runs through every comment you ever make on here. I am certainly anti-UK as I believe it is holding Scotland in an unwanted relationship but I fail to see how that makes me a Little Englander when everything I say on here is in support of Scottish Independence.
But like I say when you get to the point when even your friends and political allies are calling you out for your diatribes I would suggest it might be time to look to your own behaviour.
You voted to leave the EU and want to get rid of Scotland from the UK, seems pretty Little Englander to me
I don't want to get rid of Scotland. I just want it to have the same opportunities to thrive that the UK was asking for outside of the EU. My opposition has always been to distant and unrepresentative Government as exemplified by the EU for us and Westminster for the Scots.
If I were a little Englander then I would oppose the break up of England as well - I don't. If Cornwall wanted independence or Northumbria preferred to be part of Scotland that would be entirely their affair. What matters is the level of representation, not the name attached to it.
I do happen to think that for me countries are a useful expression of the combined wishes of their population which is why I oppose supra-national organisations like the EU. So I am comfortable with England as it is but would be equally comfortable if it were smaller or of a different form as long as it was with the wishes of the population.
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I don't think there's an intrinsic difference between a government imposing an exclusivity clause covering all production of a vaccine in its territory and another imposing an export ban on the same product. They have the same effect. The EU is targeting the UK with its export ban? Of course it is. Only the UK is impeding imports into the EU, while there were exports going the other way from the EU.
I am pretty sure most people in the EU are with the European Commission on this precise issue.
The question for the EC is whether the export ban is wise, ie it causes lots of damage while not actually diverting a lot of vaccine for use in the EU. Invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol was certainly a big mistake, fortunately overturned.
The UK has at no time impeded vaccine imports to the EU. That is an outright lie.
As I said, the UK imposed an exclusivity clause on Astrazenica requiring all production within the UK to be supplied to the UK government. The effect is exactly the same as an export ban, given the regulating government is also the only customer.
No they didn't. Guaranteeing initially ordered UK supply from UK plants (into which they put substantial upfront investment) is not an "exclusivity clause". For example, the UK couldn't go back to AZ, double their order, and have that usurp all other orders from their other customers.
Exclusive until its order is fulfilled. The EU export ban has a similar condition. Point is, the home government gets priority on a product in very limited supply until its orders are complete.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
A tit-for-tat response would have been to spend money on setting up enough vaccine production in the EU to cover their needs and contract for exclusive use of it when they did so.
Don't disagree with this in general. Although the European argument with Astrazeneca was that the EU did provide a lot of upfront money to make capacity available only for that company to turn round and say, sorry we can't provide the doses as stated because we are prevented by an exclusivity clause with the UK government. I suspect there will be lessons learnt on that.
Um no. If that were the case then it would indicate that the EU were relying on the investment made by the British Government in vaccine development and production rather than investing enough money themselves. They may have provided some money but it should be patently obvious from just looking at the raw figures that they were not investing anywhere near enough. When the UK and US are investing 7 times more per head than the EU the the obvious question is what the hell did they think was going to happen?
Fair point on Astrazeneca, although the EU including Germany did invest substantially in the Pfizer drug and that vaccine continues for the moment at least to be supplied to the UK
In my experience in life the most difficult people to deal with are those who never change their mind.
Events shift. Facts evolve. So must we.
I certainly hadn’t fully processed just how bad the EU is likely to keep looking from the outside (they might not do anything this egregious too often, but they’ll do other stuff). My slight worry we’d end up rejoining is falling away.
I would have campaigned hard to rejoin. And, personally, I was beginning to look at houses in Scotland for retirement in what I thought would become an EU country.
No more. After the disgraceful behaviour of the EU and, far worse, the manner in which they have crapped all over their own citizens there's no chance I will ever support them again. They have acted like the worst examples of an old centralist Communist dictatorship, even evoking the idea that solidarity comes before production. They have made an appalling mess of the most important job since their inception.
We got out just in time. Now we need to face out and strike trade deals around the world.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I thought Brexit was a disastrous mistake. Now I think it was the right thing to do.
I never liked the undemocratic nature of the EU. But I'd never seen a demonstration of just how dangerous the consequences could be.
How can anyone trust the EU Commission to comply with even the most minimal standards of behaviour after this? Disregard for the well-being of their own people, and contempt for everyone else.
My sentiments exactly.
And to Roger, this isn't about 'being flaky' ffs. This is people's lives we're talking about. It is the biggest crisis since the second world war, without a shadow of doubt, and the EU have flunked it. Since when they have lashed out at the British for getting on with the job of vaccinating their citizens as the EU should have done.
I was a remainer but I will never again support the EU after this. Everything that you thought could be bad about an over-centralised bureaucracy has come to the fore. Hideous red tape that is, literally, going to kill their own people.
As the country with the most deaths in Europe it ill behoves the UK to say 'the EU have flunked it'. What's the debate about if it isn't about saving lives which the the UK government have singularly failed to do
Those praising British vaccine policy are well aware of our failings early on with this pandemic. The NYT piece, like Janet Street-Porter's in yesterday's Mail, acknowledge that. Some of our deaths are undoubtedly also not down to the Gov't but our freedom aspiring recalcitrance and, continued, refusal to wear masks, socially distance and follow rules. But yes we messed it up.
However, as vaccines are the way out of this I strongly suggest you wait for the final tally rather than the one at half-time.
I just find it mind boggling to see otherwise intelligent people answer everything with a chorus of Rule Britannia
Little minds get boggled easily - Ode to Joy is little better. What is your view of Macron's anti-vax comments?
Perhaps he just got bored with the English Exceptionalists and decided to follow the old proverb "Those who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" and it seems to be working
We seem to be ok with vaccine provision, here in the UK, but have we adequate stocks of paper bags for the PB Euro-hating hyperventilators to breath into?
I voted Remain and live in Spain where vaccinations have paused. I think I'm allowed to vent a little when the authorities I rely on behave badly.
Why not complain to the Spanish rather than venting your Little Englander crap on here when you don't even live in the country.
I do and I complain about the EU as they are in charge. You could try moderating your language your nasty prejudices about where people choose to live show your true colours.
It is your choice to live there, I don't give a rat's arse where you live. I am interested in where I live.
I thought you wanted to live in the EU too? Indeed that's now one of the central arguments of the Scottish 'independence' movement. I suspect you might need an answer on the vaccine issue as if the unionists have any sense they will hammer you on it.
Somehow in our cut throat capitalist world of evil big pharma companies leaching off the poor and needy, we managed to get a very effective vaccine that was going to be given at cost price to the poorest people in the world.
Then Manny Macron comes and squeezes out a massive garlicky turd right on top of it.
It's a wonderful Saturday morning here in the Cotswolds. The sleet is turning to snow and soon the hills will be covered in snow and looking picturesque. And to add to the gaiety we have two wonderful stories to entertain us.
First is the Reddit thing. Professional traders outraged by the disgraceful behaviour of amateurs treating the stock markets like a casino. Laugh? My face nearly fell in half.
And then there is VDL, who turns out to be the bastard love child of Nigel Farage and Marine le Pen. All through the Brexit negotiations it appeared the grown ups were all on the EU side but no. The lady and her incompetent advisers have managed to cock up the vaccine programme and to boot have antagonised the EU's trading partners, and the Irish, to absolutely no purpose whatever. She'll make Brexiteers of us all yet.
Gotta busy day so must run, but do enjoy, PBers. Feels great to be alive.
PS. My personal jab due 'within a fortnite'. Yet another reason to be cheerful.
Comments
Have a good look at yourself , you seem to have more Little Englander complex than you care to profess, come out of the closet.
A government buying something that has already been sold to someone else might be similar, but that was not the case here.
Imposed, by some form of law, was only open to the UK govt.
So it is quite a big difference, although I take your point that the EU political view is unlikely to care about that difference.
That's not to say that I think any Government, or supranational body, has behaved particularly well, certainly in hindsight, over the pandemic.
They don't like the truth as you see and lash out when their odious behaviour is pointed out to them.
If his name is used for food you are going to be on a losing battle to begin with.
Should add, the EU export ban is a tit-for-tat, like-for-like respsonse to the UK exclusivity clause. Products that aren't in the EU purchase agreement aren't included in it.
We know your Scottish exceptionalism dictates you should have way more than England, but you'll have to make do with your fair share.
We want and are expecting X amount, the EU is expecting Y amount, but combined production and deliveries this month is less than Y.
So will the EU let Pfizer export anything to us?
That is the unknown question, some people on here say the EU will let Pfizer export to the UK, others on here (and some papers) say the EU will block Pfizer's export.
We just don't know.
It is highlighting the irony of leavers continuing to blame the EU for our problems after we have left the EU when one of the main arguments used by leavers for leaving was that we would no longer be able to blame the EU for our problems.
Service is free of charge for 90 days, after which a modest direct debit will be required.
The other was after the fact, and (if imposed) independent of any contractual agreement.
The EU's entire approach has been to try to prioritise low cost through exploitation of buying power, with little pro-active engagement to advance the production of the vaccine. The UK even provided the cash up front. The EU is paying on delivery.
Government's normally take the rough with the smooth, but it seems for Johnson we can only claim the smooth and discard the rough (even if he has had a direct and personal hand in a failure).
But I don’t think anyone expected the EU to turn round and put the Good Friday Agreement to the torch within a month of us finally leaving properly.
Robert Smithson thinks the delay will only cost them 2 months but that has a huge impact. We know the new variant is spreading on the continent and Spain and Portugal in particular are really bad now. And there is the economic cost as well - if we can start opening up our economy in April while Europe is in lockdown.
What makes it so much worse for the Commission is:
1) The Spahn letter - Without this they could say they tried their best but weren't successful
2) The fact that Brexit Britain is doing so well - if it was Norway or Switzerland there wouldn't be the same edge to it.
While Eurocrats don't normally resign my view is that someone will have to go. Maybe Kyriakides will be pushed under the bus to save Ursula. It is worth remembering that the parliament were not keen on VDL as they wanted the Spitzenkandidat system to continue
I don't feel any sympathy for Macron or the Germans. They must know that we will likely get real world evidence in the next month or so for AZ. They should have said they will hang on for this. Without AZ, how exactly do they plan to vaccinate all their over 65s in good time?
At the moment we have the 3rd worst deaths per capita in Europe (after Belgium and Slovenia). I can't help but feel that with the anti-vaxxers that France will end up top of the pile in 6 months or so.
But like I say when you get to the point when even your friends and political allies are calling you out for your diatribes I would suggest it might be time to look to your own behaviour.
The problem is that early production is uniformly patchy, due to the complexities of getting a bio-chemical process to scale to industrial volumes. When everything is up and running, the world will be awash with COVID vaccine production.
Your last comment about easy money is a common mistake - outsourcing like that only makes sense if you are producing a standardised, commodity product. In this case the vaccine creators have to work closely with the production organisations. Otherwise no vaccine....
The various companies have partnered with production companies and governments around the world to build new facilities and adapt old ones. If all of them work, the world will have a surplus of COVID vaccine.
I sometimes feel that some of the hatred for Boris on he remainer side comes from the fact that he doesn't look like a typical politician. He looks like a buffoon therefore he must be a buffoon. And so when things go his way he must be "lucky". My view is that Boris is a very smart guy who plays the buffoon so his opponents underestimate him.
Large-scale coronavirus vaccine manufacturing begins in Scotland
Valneva begins large-scale vaccine manufacturing at its Livingston site in West Lothian.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-30/european-union-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-shipments-australia/13105718
PS: hard to take him seriously when he chooses to live in EU and then whines about it, why not emigrate back to England if he thinks it is so bad there.
It's a more insulting version of the equally content-free 'progressive' which (excepting a specific meaning regarding taxation) is a barely grown-up version of 'goodies'.
Personally, I wouldn't argue that. I'd argue that the Windrush Scandal was a result of a pretty odious politician (Theresa May) positioning herself for a future leadership bid. But just wondered how others see it.
The EU as an institution deserves all it gets and far more as a consequence of their idiocy. The people of the EU do not.
This in no way excuses the failings of our own Government which have been as bad if not worse but just because one government does stupid things doesn't mean everyone else is supposed to follow them. Managing to make Johnson look good takes a real expert in idiocy.
And no, the EU's vaccine procurement would not have been better if we were still a member. Either we would have gone our own way - which would have meant things developing exactly the same way as they have for the rest of the EU - or we would have joined in with ceding our control to the EU as the other countries have done and would have suffered in the same way they have.
Who could have predicted that Macron would Top Trump even Trump?
The UK's standing as a political concept seems to me much enhanced by recent developments. It will be interesting to see if this is reflected in the polling.
You don't hate the English if you despise Little Englanders, just as distaste for the Nats is not anti-Scottish.
In both cases the rabid Nationalists are harmful to the nation as a whole.
They should be opposed in all cases.
Let's focus on what unites us: slagging off the French.
Macron was the acceptable face of populism, remember? An outsider, but the right kind of outsider. Unlike Sarkosy - who was a bit.... outside The Proper People.
Rather unnecessary. What kind of lunatic would willingly travel to anti vax central aka France at the moment?
Hence the drift to certain Independence as they have marginalised anything Scottish at Westminster and actively worked against devolution and Scotland.
Acted very like the EU are acting at the moment trying to browbeat everyone.
Basically I totally agree with you.
Pouring hatred and bile on our EU neighbours for years in order to achieve a political objective has consequences. Who knew!
Is there anything happening to setup a mass vaccination campaign when the supplies do arrive?
Macron is not only ex ENA but ex Rothschilds too so highly elite in background (though he twice failed to gain admission to the École normale supérieure)
I should add that I am personally doubtful about the export ban from an EU perspective, that it causes lots of grief without diverting a lot of vaccine to the EU. But I do challenge the idea widely shared here that people in the EUare clamouring for the heads of the EC because of it. The opposite, in fact. It's a populist move.
Popped back in at coffee time and oh dear, the arguiment is still running.
FWIW - I really do not think Malcy is anti-English. He's anti-the idea that some English have that they should dominate Scots over such things as referenda. But the English bit is incidental to that. That is a crucial difference. He woiuld be just the same if it were blue aliens with pink spots from Xlephier Prime dominating the UK asnd refusing indyref "just because they said so".
I'm reminded that back in - I think - November 2013, in the arguments in the runup to indyref 1 the Tories put out a coordinated assertion in the media that it was inherently anti-English and racist to criticise Tory policies. This surprised me a lot which is why I (sort of) remember the date. What next surprised me almost as much was how very, very quickly that attack line was shut down, I can only conjecture because the Tories themselves realised it was so implausible. (Probably also because it self-identified them as a party inherently alien to Scotland, which was daft given the existence of the SCUP.)
But words have meanings and have to be carefully handled - I've been careless on occasion and rightly pulled up for it by you at least once (IIRC). More generally: the comments on linguistic tells and so on earlier were interesting. I've been struck for some time now by the asymmetry of the, for want of a better word, banter on PB. Scots are always in tartan, and so on. And the Welsh do unspeakable things to sheep. But there isn't anything the other way back as such. Is it because there is no English identity, or is it too fragmented, or what?
If I were a little Englander then I would oppose the break up of England as well - I don't. If Cornwall wanted independence or Northumbria preferred to be part of Scotland that would be entirely their affair. What matters is the level of representation, not the name attached to it.
I do happen to think that for me countries are a useful expression of the combined wishes of their population which is why I oppose supra-national organisations like the EU. So I am comfortable with England as it is but would be equally comfortable if it were smaller or of a different form as long as it was with the wishes of the population.
Then Manny Macron comes and squeezes out a massive garlicky turd right on top of it.
First is the Reddit thing. Professional traders outraged by the disgraceful behaviour of amateurs treating the stock markets like a casino. Laugh? My face nearly fell in half.
And then there is VDL, who turns out to be the bastard love child of Nigel Farage and Marine le Pen. All through the Brexit negotiations it appeared the grown ups were all on the EU side but no. The lady and her incompetent advisers have managed to cock up the vaccine programme and to boot have antagonised the EU's trading partners, and the Irish, to absolutely no purpose whatever. She'll make Brexiteers of us all yet.
Gotta busy day so must run, but do enjoy, PBers. Feels great to be alive.
PS. My personal jab due 'within a fortnite'. Yet another reason to be cheerful.
Toodle pip.