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Is Biden going honour his commitment to make Washington DC a state in its own right? – politicalbett

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    ydoethur said:

    Siri, show me an example of total commitment

    As Root, fresh from 186 yesterday and clearly struggling with stiffness, brings himself on.

    Edit - and fuck me, gets a wicket!

    And another. All out 126.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    DC has about the same population as Delaware, slightly less, so if it did become a state that means it would have only 1 US House Representative as Delaware does anyway and 3 EC votes as Delaware does, so unlikely to make much difference at the House and Presidential level.

    The main difference would be in the Senate if it got 2 out of 102 Senators in an expanded Senate

    Bigger population than Vermont or Wyoming. Just saying.
    Who also have only 1 US Representative but 2 US Senators, so that does not change the point

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    It is, given Brown seems to think that the Kilbrandon Commission initiated in the 60s was the last considered examination of the constitution and devolution. That he had the opportunity to do similar in his 11 years as chancellor and then pm seems not to have occurred to him.
    That is true.

    But he is right, we don need to rethink the whole system of government from the guts up. Local government is a mess, national government is a bigger mess, and the devolutionary settlement is a complete failure. Removing the House of Lords, on its own, is an urgent matter and yet it's not the most serious problem.

    And that's true whether or not Scotland becomes independent.
    Not sure that there’s a great record for ex PMs getting anything much done (aside from writing crappy, self excusing memoirs) let alone root and branch constitutional reform of the UK.

    Oops, I forgot about the Middle East peace envoy.
    I'm not saying he should chair it. But I'm saying one is needed, preferably chaired by a senior non-party or at least independently minded figure. Betty Boothroyd would have been ideal, but is probably too old. The problem is I can't think of an obvious alternative. It couldn't be combined with the Speakership, which lets out Hoyle.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314

    IanB2 said:

    A beautiful if very cold morning. Nice to see the sun up already; fifteen minutes earlier than in December which, added to the forty five minutes in the evening, means already an hour’s extra daylight. Spring is coming!

    It happened like that last year as well
    Evidence please ?
    https://www.suntoday.org/sunrise-sunset/2020/january.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Siri, show me an example of total commitment

    As Root, fresh from 186 yesterday and clearly struggling with stiffness, brings himself on.

    Edit - and fuck me, gets a wicket!

    And another. All out 126.
    Why did they need the extra hundred?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
  • ydoethur said:

    Siri, show me an example of total commitment

    As Root, fresh from 186 yesterday and clearly struggling with stiffness, brings himself on.

    Edit - and fuck me, gets a wicket!

    And another. All out 126.
    Root on a hattrick?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Win or lose this test, this tour is a personal triumph for Joe Root. Averaging over a hundred, managing a weak spin attack like they're Warne and Laker, and superb outfielding except he dropped a couple himself this morning.

    He's answered every doubter about as emphatically as it's possible to do.

    And Chris Silverwood should be pretty smug as well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    DC has about the same population as Delaware, slightly less, so if it did become a state that means it would have only 1 US House Representative as Delaware does anyway and 3 EC votes as Delaware does, so unlikely to make much difference at the House and Presidential level.

    The main difference would be in the Senate if it got 2 out of 102 Senators in an expanded Senate

    "unlikely to make much difference at the House and Presidential level" - especially true at Presidential level where it is already covered by the EC
    Yes you are correct it already has 3 EC votes, so the only difference of any relevance would be in the US Senate and hence McConnell will remain strongly opposed as it would be a safe Democratic state
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Root 1.5 overs, 2 wickets, no runs.

    England need 164 to win. Can Crawley and Sibley hang in there for a bit this time?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Root 1.5 overs, 2 wickets, no runs.

    England need 164 to win. Can Crawley and Sibley hang in there for a bit this time?

    Who needs Ben Stokes?

    We can but hope. Their problem is they're great against seam but spin obviously came as a big surprise to them. Have they ever played in the subcontinent before? It doesn't look like it.

    Again, Lawrence looked very organised against spin in the last Test, which is unusual and encouraging for an English player.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
  • The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    ydoethur said:

    Siri, show me an example of total commitment

    As Root, fresh from 186 yesterday and clearly struggling with stiffness, brings himself on.

    Edit - and fuck me, gets a wicket!

    2 for 0. If you want something done right, do it yourself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Hadrian's Wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    To please @Gallowgate ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    ydoethur said:

    Root 1.5 overs, 2 wickets, no runs.

    England need 164 to win. Can Crawley and Sibley hang in there for a bit this time?

    Who needs Ben Stokes?

    We can but hope. Their problem is they're great against seam but spin obviously came as a big surprise to them. Have they ever played in the subcontinent before? It doesn't look like it.

    Again, Lawrence looked very organised against spin in the last Test, which is unusual and encouraging for an English player.
    Nets with Simon Harmer, of course.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    Root 1.5 overs, 2 wickets, no runs.

    England need 164 to win. Can Crawley and Sibley hang in there for a bit this time?

    Who needs Ben Stokes?

    We can but hope. Their problem is they're great against seam but spin obviously came as a big surprise to them. Have they ever played in the subcontinent before? It doesn't look like it.

    Again, Lawrence looked very organised against spin in the last Test, which is unusual and encouraging for an English player.
    Nets with Simon Harmer, of course.
    Yes - that would make total sense.

    Although Sibley must have had nets against Jeetan Patel.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hopefully the British negotiating team have learned something from the EU and their sequencing of talks, so the first two items on the agenda would be the debt and the border.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,353
    Floater said:
    Have to take some comfort that two nuclear powers are resolving matters with a fist-fight.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hopefully the British negotiating team have learned something from the EU and their sequencing of talks, so the first two items on the agenda would be the debt and the border.
    What about the currency? That's much the thorniest issue for an independent Scotland however you cut it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Sandpit, one more reason to throw the Number Ten duffer out: he signed a withdrawal agreement he didn't understand.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:



    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?

    At that point the bitterness would be such that both sides would welcome it. The English will be vindictive in the extreme in the separation negotiations and the Scots will exercise their legendary capacity for taking umbrage.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    The remaining part of D.C. used to be part of Maryland. Until the 1860s the District was a square, but the half south of the Potomac was retroceded back to Virginia. I would have thought the historical precedent would be to return what is left to Maryland - save for the small Federal area proposed. Puerto Rico has a far more obvious claim to statehood - it is hard to describe the island as anything but a US colony.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    Such borders are only necessary as long as they are needed in the Irish Sea and at Dover.

    The Anglo-Scottish border is only a nightmare if England chooses for it to be a nightmare elsewhere.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    DougSeal said:

    The remaining part of D.C. used to be part of Maryland. Until the 1860s the District was a square, but the half south of the Potomac was retroceded back to Virginia. I would have thought the historical precedent would be to return what is left to Maryland - save for the small Federal area proposed. Puerto Rico has a far more obvious claim to statehood - it is hard to describe the island as anything but a US colony.

    I just said that!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    And now a fantastic opening partnership from England. Dare we dream of double figures?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Mr. Sandpit, one more reason to throw the Number Ten duffer out: he signed a withdrawal agreement he didn't understand.

    We knew that from the moment he started talking about it.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    The Romans did. Their influence extended beyond the Wall, which was more designed as a customs post and linear barracks than a boundary
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    R4 Professor Finn on the BMA “might be better to understand before making pronouncements” on extending gap between vaccinations.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Disturbing graphic.

    The highest successful chase at Galle is 268-4 by Sri Lanka.

    The second highest is 99-3.

    The highest by a touring side is, er, 76.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hopefully the British negotiating team have learned something from the EU and their sequencing of talks, so the first two items on the agenda would be the debt and the border.
    What about the currency? That's much the thorniest issue for an independent Scotland however you cut it.
    Maybe, but that’s an entirely Scottish problem that doesn’t require the rest of the U.K. to agree anything.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,353

    IanB2 said:

    A beautiful if very cold morning. Nice to see the sun up already; fifteen minutes earlier than in December which, added to the forty five minutes in the evening, means already an hour’s extra daylight. Spring is coming!

    It happened like that last year as well
    Any predictions for next year?
    Aye - the sun won't be seen again in Scotland. Unless there's independence.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    DavidL said:

    And now a fantastic opening partnership from England. Dare we dream of double figures?

    Auf Deutsch:

    Nine.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Hadrian's Wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    And it’s 65 miles from Wallsend to Berwick....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    IanB2 said:

    A beautiful if very cold morning. Nice to see the sun up already; fifteen minutes earlier than in December which, added to the forty five minutes in the evening, means already an hour’s extra daylight. Spring is coming!

    It happened like that last year as well
    Any predictions for next year?
    Aye - the sun won't be seen again in Scotland. Unless there's independence.....
    Why? Has it finally decided to go into a prolonged sulk and leave the SNP line to the National?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?

    At that point the bitterness would be such that both sides would welcome it. The English will be vindictive in the extreme in the separation negotiations and the Scots will exercise their legendary capacity for taking umbrage.
    The Scots could also take umbrage on their own 8% deficit, which the English would leave them to deal with without a penny more from the Treasury if they voted for independence
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Dr. Foxy, the NI situation is brought out about to avoid a land border, effectively. Scotland leaving the UK would create one, unless it stayed more closely tied to the UK than EU member states.

    If it didn't, the NI situation might rear its ugly head as people wonder why it is that the UK gave ground to try and ease tensions whereas the EU doesn't for Scotland.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    The Romans did. Their influence extended beyond the Wall, which was more designed as a customs post and linear barracks than a boundary
    The Romans also built the Antonine Wall across the central belt
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    DC has about the same population as Delaware, slightly less, so if it did become a state that means it would have only 1 US House Representative as Delaware does anyway and 3 EC votes as Delaware does, so unlikely to make much difference at the House and Presidential level.

    The main difference would be in the Senate if it got 2 out of 102 Senators in an expanded Senate

    "unlikely to make much difference at the House and Presidential level" - especially true at Presidential level where it is already covered by the EC
    Yes you are correct it already has 3 EC votes, so the only difference of any relevance would be in the US Senate and hence McConnell will remain strongly opposed as it would be a safe Democratic state
    It will make a difference though since aren't the 3 EC votes from DC in addition to the others at the moment, whereas if it becomes a State it's votes will be calculated as number of Representatives + Senators. So the number of EC votes will decrease by one to 537 (102 Senators + 435 Representatives).

    Some other State will lose a Representative and an EC vote (though they will be reapportioning these soon anyway).

    No more possibility of a tie in the Electoral College.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    eek said:


    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)

    That wouldn't exactly help the Scottish deficit, would it?
  • MattW said:

    Uh-oh.

    New word report on Radio 5.

    "Opportunitism".

    It seems to be Adrian Giles' fault.

    Good morning all.

    I have no problem with coining new words providing they're not execrable. That's a good example of the latter.

    I have a number of other pet hates. 'Connectivity' is the kind of geek-speak I loathe and 'optics' is another as in, 'the optics of this don't look good.' Yuck.

    Oh and another which really grates is the waffly and self-important phrase, 'That said,' beloved of some thread writers on here.

    The art of good prose is not to cause the reader to stop and think about the writer.
    agreed on optics.

    search back for its use on here and see how many situations where 'the optics of this don't look good' had any affect on absolutely anything.
    When several Welsh assembly members were having their recent naughty drink? Bad optics....
    -_-

    Christ, weak lemon drink of a post.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    edited January 2021
    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    Actually most Cumbria MPs and most Northumberland MPs and indeed most Scottish border MPs are now Tory
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Dr. Foxy, the NI situation is brought out about to avoid a land border, effectively. Scotland leaving the UK would create one, unless it stayed more closely tied to the UK than EU member states.

    If it didn't, the NI situation might rear its ugly head as people wonder why it is that the UK gave ground to try and ease tensions whereas the EU doesn't for Scotland.

    In fairness, Scotland may be politically turbulent right now but it didn't have an 83-year actual civil war on the subject of union or independence.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    edited January 2021

    IanB2 said:

    A beautiful if very cold morning. Nice to see the sun up already; fifteen minutes earlier than in December which, added to the forty five minutes in the evening, means already an hour’s extra daylight. Spring is coming!

    Noticed it so much at the weekend - sunset roughly 1700, i.e. if we'd been at the football, it wouldn't have got dark until *after* the match.
    Or, if I was still working in the office, I could leave in daylight and get home before it got fully dark.
    TP2 2019, I didn't commute in daylight until the last week of the term :/

    Bruising.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Double figures opening stand and Embuldeniya has just bowled a no-ball.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    Such borders are only necessary as long as they are needed in the Irish Sea and at Dover.

    The Anglo-Scottish border is only a nightmare if England chooses for it to be a nightmare elsewhere.
    Whole point of discussing it first, would be to get agreement that there will not be a physical border between England and Scotland.

    That’s not a problem for England, but is a potential problem for Scotland if they wish to join the EU.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,898
    The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep
    " I smiled to see that Roger Daltrey, the Leave-supporting lead singer of the Who, has joined the chorus of rock stars furious that the post-Brexit visa rules will ruin their prospects of touring across the Channel. Mr Daltrey will have to sing Won’t Get Fooled Again to himself before moving on to Boris the Spider and I Can’t Explain."
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/24/bill-for-boris-johnson-brexit-is-coming-punishingly-steep?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR03LEJKoBoVe79XJ4XfRon8tdzdGpHTq-LjtTiifUkkR9LckKIfElG47qA
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Hadrian's Wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    St James Park is north of the wall; you may see this as an acceptable casualty of course.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    If Scotland does vote for independence there will be a lot of money not being sent north of the border the day after the vote....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    Actually most Cumbria MPs and most Northumberland MPs and indeed most Scottish border MPs are now Tory
    Isn't there just one non-Tory - Tim Farron?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    Actually most Cumbria MPs and most Northumberland MPs and indeed most Scottish border MPs are now Tory
    Isn't there just one non-Tory - Tim Farron?
    He is the sole non Tory Cumbrian MP but on current polls even that could go Tory given the collapse in the LD polling since GE19
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Meanwhile, another Indian-Chinese border clash:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55793112
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Good morning, everyone.

    'Pre-planning' is intensely irritating. Although not quite as stupidly irksome as 'pre-prepared'.

    What other kind of sodding prepared is there? The prefix is already in the damned word!

    Etymology is not really on your side. "Paro" means "prepare," and there's a perfectly good word praeparo meaning, prepare in advance. The example given by Lewis and Short is Livy "praeparaverat ante naves," "he had pre-prepared the ships in advance." Nothing wrong with a bit of recursion.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited January 2021
    And normal service resumes.

    At least he scored a few runs first.

    Edit - I can only find 7 scores of above 170 in the fourth innings at Galle. This is a tough ask.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    edited January 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    Such borders are only necessary as long as they are needed in the Irish Sea and at Dover.

    The Anglo-Scottish border is only a nightmare if England chooses for it to be a nightmare elsewhere.
    Whole point of discussing it first, would be to get agreement that there will not be a physical border between England and Scotland.

    That’s not a problem for England, but is a potential problem for Scotland if they wish to join the EU.
    Indeed, England could correctly say that if Scotland wishes to stay part of the UK single market and stay out of the EU and EEA and EU Customs Union a hard border could be avoided.

    However if Scotland voted for independence to rejoin the EU, the EEA or Customs Union, the border guards and razor wire would be sent to Berwick the next day
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    Actually most Cumbria MPs and most Northumberland MPs and indeed most Scottish border MPs are now Tory
    Isn't there just one non-Tory - Tim Farron?
    No. Wansbeck is in Northumberland and that has a Labour MP.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Z, Latin and English are famous for being different languages, however.

    I'd agree with you if we were speaking (well, typing) in Latin.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    ydoethur said:

    And normal service resumes.

    At least he scored a few runs first.

    Best opening partnership of the series. The night watchman is still there as well.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?

    At that point the bitterness would be such that both sides would welcome it. The English will be vindictive in the extreme in the separation negotiations and the Scots will exercise their legendary capacity for taking umbrage.
    We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender the home of the Archers to the porridge w*gs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    So what? You said there would be a hard border along "Hadrian's Wall" with customs posts and border guards which is total crock.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    Actually most Cumbria MPs and most Northumberland MPs and indeed most Scottish border MPs are now Tory
    Isn't there just one non-Tory - Tim Farron?
    No. Wansbeck is in Northumberland and that has a Labour MP.
    My original quote was referring to Cumbria, not Northumberland. Hyufd edited his after I posted.

    Wish Wansbeck had fallen, as Lavery is a nasty piece of work, but he just clung on.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    ydoethur said:

    And normal service resumes.

    At least he scored a few runs first.

    Edit - I can only find 7 scores of above 170 in the fourth innings at Galle. This is a tough ask.

    Those runs from Embuldinya might well be the difference. He frankly deserves a better team.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
    Wrong, the conservative government in Madrid refused the nationalist Catalan government even one legal independence referendum in 2017 and 4 years later Catalonia remains part of Spain. We Tories will follow the example of our PP cousins if needed.

    I do however agree with you an English Parliament within a Federal UK would be a good idea
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    And normal service resumes.

    At least he scored a few runs first.

    Edit - I can only find 7 scores of above 170 in the fourth innings at Galle. This is a tough ask.

    Those runs from Embuldinya might well be the difference. He frankly deserves a better team.
    It would be unfair to expect much from Root after the first innings. Not that he won't give it his all, but he's hardly been off the field all match.

    If we're to win, Bairstow, in what may well be his last Test, needs to come to the party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,262

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    So what? You said there would be a hard border along "Hadrian's Wall" with customs posts and border guards which is total crock.
    There would be, at Bowness that would certainly be a natural point for the border guards and razor wire, you could just move the rest a few miles north of the wall
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    The Redwood hath pronounced on the issue of the day. Can we expect a rendition of Address to a Haggis in strangled Scotchness? I wonder if the indiscriminate weird double spacing in his tweets reflects his dislocated thought processes?

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1353591535766560773?s=21

    If the idiots kept quiet for a bit it

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    I suspect the border could be south of even Hadrian's wall - there are a lot of Northern Brits who regard themselves as having little to do with the rest of England due to lack of investment.

    Boris is going to have to give Teesside and the North East a lot of money or else the boundary could be Scotch Corner (which feels appropriate)
    Actually most Cumbria MPs and most Northumberland MPs and indeed most Scottish border MPs are now Tory
    Isn't there just one non-Tory - Tim Farron?
    No. Wansbeck is in Northumberland and that has a Labour MP.
    My original quote was referring to Cumbria, not Northumberland. Hyufd edited his after I posted.

    Wish Wansbeck had fallen, as Lavery is a nasty piece of work, but he just clung on.
    He is a bit of a knob.

    But Wansbeck is my girlfriend's constituency and she's happy to still have a Labour MP!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    So what? You said there would be a hard border along "Hadrian's Wall" with customs posts and border guards which is total crock.
    There would be, at Bowness that would certainly be a natural point for the border guards and razor wire, you could just move the rest a few miles north of the wall
    As in, about sixty miles from Wallsend to Berwick.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    So what? You said there would be a hard border along "Hadrian's Wall" with customs posts and border guards which is total crock.
    There would be, at Bowness that would certainly be a natural point for the border guards and razor wire, you could just move the rest a few miles north of the wall
    As you've been told, it's a good 60 miles from Wallsend to Berwick.

    60 miles =/= "a few miles".

    Rein in the rhetoric will you?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited January 2021
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
    I do not think we politically align but I congratulate you on an excellent piece and it is time HYUFD grows up or shuts up.

    He does not represent my views as a conservative, and he is running a great risk of prejudicing any hopes he may have of a standing for election as a conservative as all his absurd quotes are going to come back and haunt him

    I listened to Gordon Brown just now on Sky and he was excellent in defending a reformed union and rejecting narrow nationalism in Scotland
  • HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
    Wrong, the conservative government in Madrid refused the nationalist Catalan government even one legal independence referendum in 2017 and 4 years later Catalonia remains part of Spain. We Tories will follow the example of our PP cousins if needed.

    I do however agree with you an English Parliament within a Federal UK would be a good idea
    You mean it hasn’t happened already?

    https://twitter.com/loveeutoo/status/1353617995235528704?s=21
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Controlling borders = sovereignty. All countries have an external border of course.
    But we can go further. The more borders within one's country, the more sovereignty. See Kent, Irish sea.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
    I do not think we politically align but I congratulate you on an excellent piece and it is time HYUFD grows up or shuts up.

    He does not represent my views as a conservative, and he is running a great risk of prejudicing any hopes he may have of a standing for election as a conservative as all his absurd quotes are going to come back and haunt him

    I listened to Gordon Brown just now on Sky and he was excellent in defending a reformed union and rejecting narrow nationalism in Scotland
    I disagree, Big G.

    He's not 'running a risk,' he's made it a stone certainty.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
    Wrong, the conservative government in Madrid refused the nationalist Catalan government even one legal independence referendum in 2017 and 4 years later Catalonia remains part of Spain. We Tories will follow the example of our PP cousins if needed.

    I do however agree with you an English Parliament within a Federal UK would be a good idea
    I agree with you on Scotland, but the constant references and comparisons to the events in Catalonia really only seek to antagonise, rather than advance the debate.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:
    Have to take some comfort that two nuclear powers are resolving matters with a fist-fight.....
    I would take more comfort if China didn't seem hell bent on pushing and pushing for advantage.


    Good job they are not expansionist or they might cause real trouble .......
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Controlling borders = sovereignty. All countries have an external border of course.
    But we can go further. The more borders within one's country, the more sovereignty. See Kent, Irish sea.
    I, for one, welcome our new Cumbrian-Northumberland sovereign entity. Newcastle United are almost certain to win something there, never-mind the SPL.
  • HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    Such borders are only necessary as long as they are needed in the Irish Sea and at Dover.

    The Anglo-Scottish border is only a nightmare if England chooses for it to be a nightmare elsewhere.
    Whole point of discussing it first, would be to get agreement that there will not be a physical border between England and Scotland.

    That’s not a problem for England, but is a potential problem for Scotland if they wish to join the EU.
    Indeed, England could correctly say that if Scotland wishes to stay part of the UK single market and stay out of the EU and EEA and EU Customs Union a hard border could be avoided.

    However if Scotland voted for independence to rejoin the EU, the EEA or Customs Union, the border guards and razor wire would be sent to Berwick the next day
    Your comments re razor wire at Berwick are obnoxious and unacceptable
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Controlling borders = sovereignty. All countries have an external border of course.
    But we can go further. The more borders within one's country, the more sovereignty. See Kent, Irish sea.
    I, for one, welcome our new Cumbrian-Northumberland sovereign entity. Newcastle United are almost certain to win something there, never-mind the SPL.
    Surely this would depend if Sunderland were also within the border of the new entity?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Controlling borders = sovereignty. All countries have an external border of course.
    But we can go further. The more borders within one's country, the more sovereignty. See Kent, Irish sea.
    I, for one, welcome our new Cumbrian-Northumberland sovereign entity. Newcastle United are almost certain to win something there, never-mind the SPL.
    Surely this would depend if Sunderland were also within the border of the new entity?
    Aren't Sunderland that small and inconsequential third division club? I forget.

    However Blyth Spartans might be the danger.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Floater said:

    Floater said:
    Have to take some comfort that two nuclear powers are resolving matters with a fist-fight.....
    I would take more comfort if China didn't seem hell bent on pushing and pushing for advantage.


    Good job they are not expansionist or they might cause real trouble .......
    The current Chinese government is beginning to remind me of MBS in Saudi Arabia - an unpleasant regime that used to be level-headily nasty, but is starting to become aggressive and a bit nutty.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
    Given he still hasn't admitted getting the EU Ref turnout in Scotland wrong yesterday I think it is safe to say it is a vanishingly rare event.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077

    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Why would we put the border inside England?
    Controlling borders = sovereignty. All countries have an external border of course.
    But we can go further. The more borders within one's country, the more sovereignty. See Kent, Irish sea.
    I, for one, welcome our new Cumbrian-Northumberland sovereign entity. Newcastle United are almost certain to win something there, never-mind the SPL.
    Surely this would depend if Sunderland were also within the border of the new entity?
    Aren't Sunderland that small and inconsequential third division club? I forget.

    However Blyth Spartans might be the danger.
    Blyth Spartans are in trouble anyway - as their season is suspended pending cancellation.
  • Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
    Given he still hasn't admitted getting the EU Ref turnout in Scotland wrong yesterday I think it is safe to say it is a vanishingly rare event.
    And his chances of standing for an mp are also vanishing
  • Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    Mr. Divvie, it is ironic to hear Brown come out with that, given the divisions have been increased (cemented?) by the devolution Labour thought would give them a fiefdom forever, and the system they contrived is now making it easier for the SNP to retain their dominance of Holyrood.

    If the Sunday Times is right from Yesterday - the pro independence parties are going to have 2/3 of the seats come May. In the same way that HYUFD states that the Tories 80 seat majority is enough to stop a referendum, the 40 seat majority independence will have (216 if you expended to to Parliament's 650 seats) is enough to say that Scotland wants one.
    It would not matter if the SNP won every seat at Holyrood Westminster is sovereign and we have a UK Tory majority government and when Boris righly refuses a legal indyref2 any referendum Sturgeon attempts to hold will not only be illegal but will be boycotted by Unionists. Madrid showed in Catalonia illegal referendums can be ignored as will this one. Plus the latest polling has the SNP on about 51% and 46% on the constituency and list votes, which is below where it was in the autumn and the poll yesterday had 35% for the status quo and 18% for devomax and 47% for independence, so more back devomax than independence
    We already know your opinion HYFUD. Trouble is that it´s bollocks. I do not support the break of of the UK, but nothing could drive the complete rejection of the common state more than some shrill declaration from a 10 year old in Kent that the clearly expressed votes of the Scottish people should carry less weight than some self-serving Tory nonsense. You try to duck the fight by hiding behind constitutional fol-de-rols then you will get steam rollered. Scotland is mightily pissed off that ultra-hard Brexit was forced on them without a by-your-leave, and trying to force Scotland to stay in the UK would guarantee an immediate end to Westminster legitimacy.

    I suppose you would then declare war on any country-say France- that de facto recognized Scotland? Your whole uncompromising position is absurd and also highly counter productive, as is noted every time you try to open up on it. The only way now to keep the common state together is to offer a joint conversation on how the country should modernize. Offering a few fig leaves, or even devo-max will fail, if there is not reform in London too- precisely because, for example, you and other right-wingers think the unwritten constitution as you choose to interpret it over-rides the Sovereign rights of the Scottish government. A Federal Britain, with codified rights being granted to English local government or governments as much as Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and maybe overseas territories is now firmly on the agenda, whether or not our Circassian Turk PM writes pro and con columns to persuade himself or not.
    Wrong, the conservative government in Madrid refused the nationalist Catalan government even one legal independence referendum in 2017 and 4 years later Catalonia remains part of Spain. We Tories will follow the example of our PP cousins if needed.

    I do however agree with you an English Parliament within a Federal UK would be a good idea
    I agree with you on Scotland, but the constant references and comparisons to the events in Catalonia really only seek to antagonise, rather than advance the debate.
    It's also worth remembering that their hardcore stance on Catalan independence didn't do the PP much good in the 2019 elections. Neither did their approach to preserving controversial monuments, come to think of it.

    This government could really do with someone to whisper "remember you are mortal" in their ears.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    FPT:
    Leon said:

    FWIW The Univ of Washington model is now predicting 156,000+ UK deaths by May 1, 2021

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-kingdom


    I can remember when Neil Ferguson's prediction of 500,000 UK dead, if we made NO attempt to suppress the virus, was met with total derision on here

    A horrific total. Possibly the worst, per capita, in the world. Tho we will be comfortably beaten, in total numbers, by India, Mexico, Brazil and the USA

    I didn't think you were around then, Leon? There was another poster fond of posting those estimates... What many on here pointed out was that those figures were a worst case do-nothing scenario. We didn't say the estimate was wrong, we said they would not happen because the worst case 'do nothing' would not happen. And much has been done and so we are where we are.

    I've been a defender of Ferguson's estimates, as - I think - has @Philip_Thompson and some others. The estimates (100k under a more realistic scenario with a lockdown, then easing) have been shown to be at least the right ball park. You never expect them to be right on because at least some of the assumptions are not met - we didn't lock down and lift in the way described in the 100k estimates.

    Also, as others have pointed out, the Washington model really was junk early on. Partly due to garbage in garbage out. I don't know whether it's got any better. It looks to me like an overestimate - cases are now coming down and while we'll see deaths continue high for a while due to lagging, they'll come down too. If the vaccines are anywhere near as effective as trialled at preventing severe disease, it's hard to see how we get to that figure.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Sandpit said:

    Great vaccine news, with U.K. now over 10% of population, well ahead of the whole world bar two small and rich countries.

    Israel over 40% now, and UAE over 25%, should start to see some useful data on effectiveness in the next few weeks.


    What a stunning success story by the UK.

    I do wish all my fellow remainers, who are so wont to leap on every little Brexit problem, would have the good grace to acknowledge this. And the massive contrast with the shambles in the EU.
    Usual jingoistic gloating , pretty despicable as ever. Try boasting about your topping of the death table perhaps and maybe the public corruption league.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
    Given he still hasn't admitted getting the EU Ref turnout in Scotland wrong yesterday I think it is safe to say it is a vanishingly rare event.
    And his chances of standing for an mp are also vanishing
    why do you say that?
  • TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
    Given he still hasn't admitted getting the EU Ref turnout in Scotland wrong yesterday I think it is safe to say it is a vanishingly rare event.
    And his chances of standing for an mp are also vanishing
    why do you say that?
    His comments on Scotland
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
    Given he still hasn't admitted getting the EU Ref turnout in Scotland wrong yesterday I think it is safe to say it is a vanishingly rare event.
    And his chances of standing for an mp are also vanishing
    why do you say that?
    I agree, they vanished long ago.

    Or to put it another way, would anyone be mad keen to see Hyufd in Parliament?

    Many sterling qualities - good manners, intelligence, an understanding of polling and polling methods matched by few on this board (and certainly better than mine) - but neither the flexibility of mind nor the intellectual courage to make proper policy based on evidence, because he simply refuses to see evidence that doesn't fit his theories. That's not what you want in an MP.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Gordo Brown on R4 saying the UK will endure if the argument in defence of it is made properly followed by ‘we need a constitutional commission’ & some Orwellian ‘I’m a patriot not a nationalist’ guff. This fresh, new thinking is bound to do the trick.

    The problem with the Union is that there is an ever decreasing sentiment for it, even if there is an economic case.

    Union was largely driven by external threat, either because England felt threatened by the back door, hence conquest, or by the threat from France, Germany or Soviet Union giving a more positive reason to stand together.

    There is simply little reason for it anymore other than accidents of history.
    No nothing at all except to stop Customs Posts at Berwick, inevitable in the event of Scexit or to ensure our place in the G7 and as permanent members of the UN Security Council and protect our place in the world.

    Plus of course Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland all have large deficits, only London and the SE raises more in revenue than it spends so if Scotland went independent that would mean deep spending cuts and tax rises would be required from Edinburgh to avoid Scotland going bankrupt. Dublin has also ruled out a border poll for at least 5 years as it does not want to have to fund NI anytime soon
    Having now left the EU CU, the Berwick border is going to be a feature of another Scotland referendum in a way that it wasn’t in 2014.

    If an independent Scotland were to join the EU, is there any possible way that we don’t have physical border infrastructure on the M6 and A1, and a rebuilding of Hadrian’s wall in barbed wire?
    No there isn't, there would be a hard border along Hadrian's Wall with customs posts and border guards
    Hadrian's wall is in England you pillock.

    I live north of Hadrian's wall and there's another 50 miles of England north of me.
    The wall is just 0.6 miles from the Scottish border at Bowness-on-Solway
    You can never concede a point can you?
    Given he still hasn't admitted getting the EU Ref turnout in Scotland wrong yesterday I think it is safe to say it is a vanishingly rare event.
    And his chances of standing for an mp are also vanishing
    why do you say that?
    His comments on Scotland
    He has only reiterated govt policy and explained the technicalities involved in it.
This discussion has been closed.