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Is Biden going honour his commitment to make Washington DC a state in its own right? – politicalbett

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    eekeek Posts: 25,028

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    If that was the tone of the conversation I wouldn't be rushing to provide the EU with any favours down the line - just instructing people to ensure they have all allowable excuses lined up for the next time things went slightly wrong.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,950

    Leon said:

    It’s been said before, but nobody at all is talking about the Brexit upside, Brexit dividend, etc.

    Last known references were before Christmas when govt advertising was telling small businesses to prepare for “Brexit opportunities”. Presume that campaign has been chopped.

    The only debate is on how bad the damage is, potential mitigation, and why Remainers are to blame.

    Covid is still masking everything and keeping it off the the leads of many news items, but I have a strong feeling that part of the recent dropping of Tory support in many polls is first-hand small business experience, then passed on to friends and associates who are undecided voters, in a subcultural strand still unnoticed by the media.
    Citation required for 'dropping of Tory support'
    Labour have been ahead in several of the recent polls of about the last two weeks - I expect HYUFD can verify as he's posted up several of the polls that are specifically relevant to this, I think.
    The two parties are essentially tied, as they have been for months.
    AFAIK there were no Labour leads in polls late last year, whereas now there are.
    "Labour moves ahead in opinion polls - 8 Nov 2020"

    There have been three GB opinion polls published over the last few days –

    YouGov/Times (4th/5th Nov) – CON 35%(-3), LAB 40%(+2), LDEM 7%(+1) (tabs)
    Opinium/Observer (5th/6th Nov) – CON 38%(nc), LAB 42%(+2), LDEM 7%(+1) (tabs)
    Survation (5th/6th Nov) – CON 39%(-2), LAB 37%(nc), LDEM 9%(+2) (tabs)

    https://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/10151

    Basically exactly what we have seen over the past month. Tories and Labour bounce around the high 30%, upto 40%, mark.
    Hm I wouldn't be sure about that at all. It looks like we're at the beginning of a trend to me, combining lockdown fatigue and the depressing persistence of casualty rates from the virus with increasing stories about Brexit in the media.
    The wish is father to the thought....
    This could also be a motto for many centre-right posts on PB, ofcourse. I do think the fact that Labour leads are being duplicated by different pollsters is genuinely cause for thought, but obviously the proof of the pudding will be if these leads are sustained.
    I remain genuinely astonished that this Government isn't double digits behind in the polls.
    The vast majority of the population, in sharp contrast to a majority of people obsessed by politics, are willing to give the government a huge amount of slack in the middle of a once-in-a-century global pandemic. A fast and successful vaccination programme might even see them exit the pandemic with higher approval than at the start of it. At least until the £450bn has to start being paid back.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited January 2021
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Telegrpah bleating about how it will cost families thousands. Well, err.. how about not going on holiday?
    It is like all the twats at the airports moaning...its not fair, not fair....I am coming back from Barbados and it is taking 2hrs to get through passport control....sorry Barbados, what exactly were you doing there....erhhhhh errhhhh business, yes thats it, business.
    Yeahbut the hotel said if I tag them in three Instagram posts while I’m there, they’ll give me 10% off my room for the week. That’s work, innit?
    I saw a video of a influencer who found a super cheap first class flight and claimed taking that flight was "business" and thus in the rules, because he was reviewing how good the service was during the pandemic.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,179
    Sandpit said:

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A lower currency is good news for domestic industry and exporters.
    Because it is a wage cut. The idea that a fall in the currency is something to be welcomed is a popular misconception among armchair economists. Mercantilism is one of those surprisingly persistent discredited ideas.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news on a Monday morning. Lotus Cars announce £100m investment into Hethel facility, with 250 extra jobs working on new sports car to replace existing Elise, Exige and Evora models.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/lotus-pistonheads/lotus-confirms-type-131-sports-car-for-2021/43660

    Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

    I've always wanted a 2.2 Series 2 Esprit but then when I go to look at one I always recoil from the Morris Marina interior and sub-Marina build quality. They remind me very much of 2CVs; there is an amazing amount of engineering genius in them but 95% of that genius is channeled into making them as cheap as possible to build.
    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Two airlines in the region at the time:

    TACA - take a chance airways; and
    SAHSA - stay at home, stay alive.

    Planes had a habit of driving into the mountain range at the end of the runway at Tegucigalpa.
    The same for Pakistan International Airlines was Please Inform Allah....

    There was a Russian pilot that used to fly out of Bioko Island, Equatorial Guinea, with a parrot on his shoulder. Sadly, he slammed into the volcano there....
    It was quite sobering to see the mountain range at the end of the runway as you were taxiing ready for take off...

    My nearest miss? Happily minding my own business dozing/reading the paper in an Air China BAe146 as we flew through some fog in northern China. Suddenly the plane just changed direction and flew upwards at a near vertical angle, engines roaring (did I imagine that?). And when I looked out of the window we were flying through and amongst a mountain range with the buggers all around.

    Didn't have time to be scared as it was over before anyone realised but have pondered that at moments since.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Looking back spanish flu caused 228k deaths in this country, so based on a pop of 43 million it'd be 5,300 deaths per million.
    USA 675,000 / 103,208,000 = 6540

    Global deaths 50 million vs 1.8 bill pop = 27,778 / 1 mill pop though !!
    India @ 17 million/250 mill = 68000/1 mill looks like it was incredibly hard hit, and provides a means of squaring the low western/high global death toll if similar was happening in the rest of the developing world.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    In total, the UK and US have each spent about seven times more upfront, per capita, on vaccine development, procurement and production than the European bloc, according to data gathered by Airfinity, a London-based life sciences analytics company. 

    While the figures include different types of funding and might not be exactly comparable, the data suggest EU member states should have used more economic firepower earlier to finance upgrades of factories and vaccine raw materials suppliers, said Rasmus Bech Hansen, Airfinity’s chief executive. 

    “It’s tricky but I just think there are special circumstances in a pandemic,” he said. “Everything is a trade-off and timing is just so critical — weeks and months mean a lot.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/c9bbc753-97fb-493a-bbb6-dd97a7c4b807


    Why exactly were people clamouring for the UK to join the EU scheme?
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    eekeek Posts: 25,028
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Telegrpah bleating about how it will cost families thousands. Well, err.. how about not going on holiday?
    It is like all the twats at the airports moaning...its not fair, not fair....I am coming back from Barbados and it is taking 2hrs to get through passport control....sorry Barbados, what exactly were you doing there....erhhhhh errhhhh business, yes thats it, business.
    Yeahbut the hotel said if I tag them in three Instagram posts while I’m there, they’ll give me 10% off my room for the week. That’s work, innit?
    Which chain so I can avoid the one that allow z class celebs in.

    Sandy lane has a problem with that but I usually only end up walking through it when I've got the tides wrong on the walk up to Hole Town.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Piers Morgan is also wrong to say we have the highest death rate in the world. Of non micro-countries, Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia are all higher, in terms of deaths per M.

    Still not great, however.

    We will be in front of Czechia by the end of today. Belgium and Slovenia are some way off but we're closer to our current peak than they are so might be able to overtake them.
    I must say I find the eagerness of some people to discuss how the UK might fall a few places further down the deaths league than country X (especially EU country X) rather distasteful. The fact is that tens of thousands of people in the UK have died unnecessarily, and the reason they have died is the incompetence of our government.
    People and PB-ers have been comparing countries in and out of the EU, in terms of pandemic performance, since Covid kicked off. And for a very good reason: if a country is doing well, compared to us, we can learn from it: see Taiwan, or New Zealand. We can see what works.

    Comparing countries and checking deaths also tells us where new mutations might be causing extra problems. Which is also crucial.

    I get that you might find this distasteful, but plagues are horribly distasteful. Millions have died and will die. That's just the way it is.
    Funny how the media were obsessed with comparisons, charts every day showing how crap the UK was doing on everything from cases to testing....now don't seem so interested, especially one to do with vaccinations.
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    HYUFD said:

    Wonderful stuff from @HYUFD this morning pledging "razor wire" along Hadrians Wall. A finer advocate for Scottish Independence you will not find. And he plays it so deliciously deadpan, like he doesn't understand that what he says and what he claims he believes (e.g. in the Union) are diametrically opposed.

    There would be customs posts and a hard border with Scotland if it rejoined the EU, the EEA or an EU Customs Union now having voted to leave the UK.

    That is inevitable and that would not have been the case in 2014 when the UK was still in the EU
    There aren't customs posts, razor wire or a hard border along the Irish border. Your party foamed on about digital solutions for such things, yet here you are gleefully threatening them for Scotland.

    Your petty bigotry towards anyone who isn't you is self-evident. Don't vote Tory? You opinion has no value. Not English? Off with you. Which group is next. Gayers? Darkies?

    You truly are a reprehensible excuse for a Unionist. A marvellous advocate for the ending of the UK every time you speak.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Telegrpah bleating about how it will cost families thousands. Well, err.. how about not going on holiday?
    It is like all the twats at the airports moaning...its not fair, not fair....I am coming back from Barbados and it is taking 2hrs to get through passport control....sorry Barbados, what exactly were you doing there....erhhhhh errhhhh business, yes thats it, business.
    Yeahbut the hotel said if I tag them in three Instagram posts while I’m there, they’ll give me 10% off my room for the week. That’s work, innit?
    I saw a video of a influencer who found a super cheap first class flight and claimed taking that flight was "business" and thus in the rules, because he was reviewing how good the service was during the pandemic.
    Cretins.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,439

    'NO justice' if my son's killer dies from Covid: Agony of Lee Rigby's mother as Michael Adebowale 'fights for breath' on ventilator – prompting fears his death from the virus would spare him spending rest of his life in jail

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9182307/Lee-Rigby-killer-Michael-Adebowale-29-oxygen-hospital-contracting-coronavirus.html

    I kinda of take the bit in bold as a given.

    Uhhh...if he dies of it, he will have spent the rest of his life in prison?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited January 2021

    There is surprisingly little backlash that we have (essentially) the highest number of deaths in the world.

    While Britain was always going to be hard-hit for factors beyond our control, poor leadership and execution has played its part.

    This is not hindsight, either.
    With the exception of the care homes debacle earlier this year, most of the governments failures have been anticipated on this Board.

    That we have a world-leading vaccination programme does not obscure these facts.

    Our vaccination programme and France's lack of an effective one however means France could soon overtake us on both overall deaths and deaths per head.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited January 2021
    Interesting video...by the time we get to autumn, could easily have be getting jabbed with a different vaccine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sbqXgWzhEU
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,039
    TOPPING said:



    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Never. 1417 (TGA) Flt was a Crab Air Harrier exclusive.

    My only Central America experience was a hell of a run ashore in Panama City. There was an establishment that combined a whorehouse and a go-kart track in the same facility. We were accompanied on this program of cultural exploration by a member of "The Regiment" who was there doing some nebulous anti drugs nonsense. They made him check his Browning HP at the door and gave him a ticket like a cloakroom. In the damp tropical dawn when he went to get it back with empty balls as flat as bats' wings they handed him a rusty Bulgarian copy of a Makarov PM in exchange for his ticket. Fucking LOL.
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    DougSeal said:

    There is no surge in "al fresco defacation" here in Kent. We have been quite relieved (no pun intended) TBH. That is because the expecation we were given was of complee gridlock but what we have ended up with is not anywhere near that. That may change but the increase in people releiving themselves on the M20 has not happened (yet). There is a new lorry park but mostly Manston Airport has been repurposed.

    Indeed. Kent has largely been saved thanks to the almost total collapse of trade across the channel. Hurrah!
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,277
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Piers Morgan is also wrong to say we have the highest death rate in the world. Of non micro-countries, Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia are all higher, in terms of deaths per M.

    Still not great, however.

    We will be in front of Czechia by the end of today. Belgium and Slovenia are some way off but we're closer to our current peak than they are so might be able to overtake them.
    This plague is still accelerating, globally. By the end of 2021, or the middle of 2022, that table could look completely different, and the UK could be 10th, 20th, whatever. Or we could be top.
    "This plague is still accellerating globally". Well, I know that Worldometers is far from perfect, but...


    I was looking at the death chart. The case rate is much less reliable as an indicator, as testing varies so much from country to country. Deaths are still surging, as you can see. We also know that new, nastier, more infectious and more dangerous mutations have recently emerged, which is a bad augury.

    But I hope you are right and I am wrong.
    South Africa's death chart (below) hardly shows an accelleration though. Also, while testing varies from nation to nation, they are consistent within nations, and Worldometers reports those variations accross countries consistently and adds them up in aggregate for their global total rather than comparing apples with oranges.


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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,734
    RobD said:
    We already know that her views on closing the borders are ignored.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A lower currency is good news for domestic industry and exporters.
    Because it is a wage cut. The idea that a fall in the currency is something to be welcomed is a popular misconception among armchair economists. Mercantilism is one of those surprisingly persistent discredited ideas.
    It depends what proportion of one's purchases are in a foreign currency. The impact of a fall in the currency is reflected in the rate of inflation. The pound has lost 75% of its value compared to the dollar since 1945, but no one would say that UK real wages are lower now than they were in 1945.

    Conversely, the value of sterling soared in 1979-80, but no one would say the UK was getting richer in that period.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,016
    HYUFD said:

    There is surprisingly little backlash that we have (essentially) the highest number of deaths in the world.

    While Britain was always going to be hard-hit for factors beyond our control, poor leadership and execution has played its part.

    This is not hindsight, either.
    With the exception of the care homes debacle earlier this year, most of the governments failures have been anticipated on this Board.

    That we have a world-leading vaccination programme does not obscure these facts.

    Our successful vaccination programme and France's lack of an effective one however means France could soon overtake us on both overall deaths and deaths per head.
    Vaccinating almost 1% of adults every day is a stunning national achievement. Let's hope supplies can keep up.
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    ydoethur said:

    'NO justice' if my son's killer dies from Covid: Agony of Lee Rigby's mother as Michael Adebowale 'fights for breath' on ventilator – prompting fears his death from the virus would spare him spending rest of his life in jail

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9182307/Lee-Rigby-killer-Michael-Adebowale-29-oxygen-hospital-contracting-coronavirus.html

    I kinda of take the bit in bold as a given.

    Uhhh...if he dies of it, he will have spent the rest of his life in prison?
    He's in hospital, not prison.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Telegrpah bleating about how it will cost families thousands. Well, err.. how about not going on holiday?
    It is like all the twats at the airports moaning...its not fair, not fair....I am coming back from Barbados and it is taking 2hrs to get through passport control....sorry Barbados, what exactly were you doing there....erhhhhh errhhhh business, yes thats it, business.
    Yeahbut the hotel said if I tag them in three Instagram posts while I’m there, they’ll give me 10% off my room for the week. That’s work, innit?
    I saw a video of a influencer who found a super cheap first class flight and claimed taking that flight was "business" and thus in the rules, because he was reviewing how good the service was during the pandemic.
    Cretins.
    Imagine the engagement that would be created if they faced a
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    eekeek Posts: 25,028

    HYUFD said:

    Wonderful stuff from @HYUFD this morning pledging "razor wire" along Hadrians Wall. A finer advocate for Scottish Independence you will not find. And he plays it so deliciously deadpan, like he doesn't understand that what he says and what he claims he believes (e.g. in the Union) are diametrically opposed.

    There would be customs posts and a hard border with Scotland if it rejoined the EU, the EEA or an EU Customs Union now having voted to leave the UK.

    That is inevitable and that would not have been the case in 2014 when the UK was still in the EU
    There aren't customs posts, razor wire or a hard border along the Irish border. Your party foamed on about digital solutions for such things, yet here you are gleefully threatening them for Scotland.

    Your petty bigotry towards anyone who isn't you is self-evident. Don't vote Tory? You opinion has no value. Not English? Off with you. Which group is next. Gayers? Darkies?

    You truly are a reprehensible excuse for a Unionist. A marvellous advocate for the ending of the UK every time you speak.
    The irony is that as someone who understands what digital can and can't do the digital solutions don't exist and really can't as manual intervention is required (see fish exports for details).
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Would a politician who still wants to be loved want to go down as someone who caused civil strife ? I doubt that. Johnson has been a part-time Trump, not the full-fat version especially since Cummings left.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170

    HYUFD said:

    Wonderful stuff from @HYUFD this morning pledging "razor wire" along Hadrians Wall. A finer advocate for Scottish Independence you will not find. And he plays it so deliciously deadpan, like he doesn't understand that what he says and what he claims he believes (e.g. in the Union) are diametrically opposed.

    There would be customs posts and a hard border with Scotland if it rejoined the EU, the EEA or an EU Customs Union now having voted to leave the UK.

    That is inevitable and that would not have been the case in 2014 when the UK was still in the EU
    There aren't customs posts, razor wire or a hard border along the Irish border. Your party foamed on about digital solutions for such things, yet here you are gleefully threatening them for Scotland.

    Your petty bigotry towards anyone who isn't you is self-evident. Don't vote Tory? You opinion has no value. Not English? Off with you. Which group is next. Gayers? Darkies?

    You truly are a reprehensible excuse for a Unionist. A marvellous advocate for the ending of the UK every time you speak.
    Ireland is different as Northern Ireland has a land border with an EU member state, there are still customs checks and border posts between GB and NI effectively now, even if the UK and EU trade deal has reduced them.

    Scotland has no border with an EU member state, so Scexit would mean a hard border with England if Scotland rejoined the EU.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,983

    There is surprisingly little backlash that we have (essentially) the highest number of deaths in the world.

    While Britain was always going to be hard-hit for factors beyond our control, poor leadership and execution has played its part.

    This is not hindsight, either.
    With the exception of the care homes debacle earlier this year, most of the governments failures have been anticipated on this Board.

    That we have a world-leading vaccination programme does not obscure these facts.

    It's less surprising when you factor in how openly propagandistic much of the print media is compared to the continent ; which is also why it's less surprising how the religious nature of much of the Brexit belief can be waved through.
    Most people cut the government quite a lot of slack, at times like this, as in wartime.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    Sandpit said:

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A lower currency is good news for domestic industry and exporters.
    Not necessarily, and decreasingly so in the modern economy.

    A lot of exports are now relatively price-insensitive, which means that when the pound drops, exporters simply earn less.

    Our exports did not massively benefit from the drop in the pound.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,016

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Its as if they have been on their sunshine breaks and now have nothing to look forward to for several months.

    I await the screeching for the removal of what they claim is a "racist and discriminatory policy, that hits the poor the hardest", when we get to June.

    Most of the media weren't interested at all when passengers from Milan were arriving at Heathrow and Gatwick last March and April without any checks whatsoever on their health condition despite the fact that that was the epicentre of the pandemic at the time.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,734
    I'm disappointed that HY hasn't (yet) suggested gunboats in the Tweed.
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    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Piers Morgan is also wrong to say we have the highest death rate in the world. Of non micro-countries, Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia are all higher, in terms of deaths per M.

    Still not great, however.

    We will be in front of Czechia by the end of today. Belgium and Slovenia are some way off but we're closer to our current peak than they are so might be able to overtake them.
    I must say I find the eagerness of some people to discuss how the UK might fall a few places further down the deaths league than country X (especially EU country X) rather distasteful. The fact is that tens of thousands of people in the UK have died unnecessarily, and the reason they have died is the incompetence of our government.
    People and PB-ers have been comparing countries in and out of the EU, in terms of pandemic performance, since Covid kicked off. And for a very good reason: if a country is doing well, compared to us, we can learn from it: see Taiwan, or New Zealand. We can see what works.

    Comparing countries and checking deaths also tells us where new mutations might be causing extra problems. Which is also crucial.

    I get that you might find this distasteful, but plagues are horribly distasteful. Millions have died and will die. That's just the way it is.
    Funny how the media were obsessed with comparisons, charts every day showing how crap the UK was doing on everything from cases to testing....now don't seem so interested, especially one to do with vaccinations.
    The same was true with the government if you remember - happy to show comparison data right up until that data showed how bad a job they were doing, at which point the comparisons stopped.

    Two things are true. One - the government has done a horrendous job of managing the pandemic which has directly killed tens of thousands of people unnecessarily. Two - the government has done a great job at ramping up vaccinations. It is a relief that we're doing so well getting needles in arms as its the only thing they have got right so far.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    DougSeal said:

    There is no surge in "al fresco defacation" here in Kent. We have been quite relieved (no pun intended) TBH. That is because the expecation we were given was of complee gridlock but what we have ended up with is not anywhere near that. That may change but the increase in people releiving themselves on the M20 has not happened (yet). There is a new lorry park but mostly Manston Airport has been repurposed.

    Indeed. Kent has largely been saved thanks to the almost total collapse of trade across the channel. Hurrah!
    Isn't it at 70% of previous? That's not a total collapse.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    Andy_JS said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Its as if they have been on their sunshine breaks and now have nothing to look forward to for several months.

    I await the screeching for the removal of what they claim is a "racist and discriminatory policy, that hits the poor the hardest", when we get to June.

    Most of the media weren't interested at all when passengers from Milan were arriving at Heathrow and Gatwick last March and April without any checks whatsoever on their health condition despite the fact that that was the epicentre of the pandemic at the time.
    It is terrifying our badly the media has performed.

    I would judge the media failure as worse than the government’s - and unlike the government, we cannot vote them out.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,557

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
    Also, it's the EU Commission, so, if you're a furious EU citizen and want to punish them for their incompetence, by voting them out of power, you can't. They are unelected. They are under zero political pressure.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited January 2021
    Sean_F said:

    There is surprisingly little backlash that we have (essentially) the highest number of deaths in the world.

    While Britain was always going to be hard-hit for factors beyond our control, poor leadership and execution has played its part.

    This is not hindsight, either.
    With the exception of the care homes debacle earlier this year, most of the governments failures have been anticipated on this Board.

    That we have a world-leading vaccination programme does not obscure these facts.

    It's less surprising when you factor in how openly propagandistic much of the print media is compared to the continent ; which is also why it's less surprising how the religious nature of much of the Brexit belief can be waved through.
    Most people cut the government quite a lot of slack, at times like this, as in wartime.
    I think quite a lot of that has dissipated since last spring, though. I think it's more intermittent and conditional now, depending on the gravity of the figures people are informed about from month to month.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Would a politician who still wants to be loved want to go down as someone who caused civil strife ? I'm not sure about that. Johnson has been a part-time Trump, not the full-fat version especially since Cummings left.
    If the alternative is being forced to resign and lose his premiership and go down as a 21st century Lord North after granting a legal indyref2 on current polls he would narrowly lose, certainly short of devomax he is still ruling out.

    In any case I suspect civil strife from hardcore Nats would turn off moderates in Scotland
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Not because it's a manifesto commitment then.

    I'm also very taken with the idea that our present PM would resign because of a matter of principle. Always the chance of a leopard chasing it's spots, I suppose, but it doesn't seem likely.
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    eekeek Posts: 25,028

    I'm disappointed that HY hasn't (yet) suggested gunboats in the Tweed.

    They are needed to protect our fishing waters although I'm at a loss as to how you tell the difference between a foreign flagged boat with permission to fish in our waters and a foreign flagged boat without permission.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,096
    edited January 2021

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A lower currency is good news for domestic industry and exporters.
    Because it is a wage cut. The idea that a fall in the currency is something to be welcomed is a popular misconception among armchair economists. Mercantilism is one of those surprisingly persistent discredited ideas.
    In my previous job in biopharm the drop in GBP after 2016 was good for our manufacturing costs but it was offset by the increased cost of imports of raw materials.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:



    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Never. 1417 (TGA) Flt was a Crab Air Harrier exclusive.

    My only Central America experience was a hell of a run ashore in Panama City. There was an establishment that combined a whorehouse and a go-kart track in the same facility. We were accompanied on this program of cultural exploration by a member of "The Regiment" who was there doing some nebulous anti drugs nonsense. They made him check his Browning HP at the door and gave him a ticket like a cloakroom. In the damp tropical dawn when he went to get it back with empty balls as flat as bats' wings they handed him a rusty Bulgarian copy of a Makarov PM in exchange for his ticket. Fucking LOL.
    They used to do that at MPH. Two pretty nurses in a booth next to hospital reception would take your weaponry and give you cloakroom tickets.

    Sadly I never came out with anything more exciting than what I had put in.
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    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wonderful stuff from @HYUFD this morning pledging "razor wire" along Hadrians Wall. A finer advocate for Scottish Independence you will not find. And he plays it so deliciously deadpan, like he doesn't understand that what he says and what he claims he believes (e.g. in the Union) are diametrically opposed.

    There would be customs posts and a hard border with Scotland if it rejoined the EU, the EEA or an EU Customs Union now having voted to leave the UK.

    That is inevitable and that would not have been the case in 2014 when the UK was still in the EU
    There aren't customs posts, razor wire or a hard border along the Irish border. Your party foamed on about digital solutions for such things, yet here you are gleefully threatening them for Scotland.

    Your petty bigotry towards anyone who isn't you is self-evident. Don't vote Tory? You opinion has no value. Not English? Off with you. Which group is next. Gayers? Darkies?

    You truly are a reprehensible excuse for a Unionist. A marvellous advocate for the ending of the UK every time you speak.
    The irony is that as someone who understands what digital can and can't do the digital solutions don't exist and really can't as manual intervention is required (see fish exports for details).
    "Digital" was the preferred "solution" to the Castlefield Corridor rail crisis (which caused the massive timetable difficulties a couple of years back). "Lets have a digital railway like on Thameslink" said Grayling.

    Yes, because a Thameslink Core where all the trains are the same type and only of two lengths is exactly the same as Castlefield where there are a multitude of types both passenger and freight.

    When it comes to the detail of how things work in the real world this government have demonstrated time and time again just how clueless they are. No wonder they had enough of experts, they were fed up with having their utter stupidity highlighted.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,950
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Telegrpah bleating about how it will cost families thousands. Well, err.. how about not going on holiday?
    It is like all the twats at the airports moaning...its not fair, not fair....I am coming back from Barbados and it is taking 2hrs to get through passport control....sorry Barbados, what exactly were you doing there....erhhhhh errhhhh business, yes thats it, business.
    Yeahbut the hotel said if I tag them in three Instagram posts while I’m there, they’ll give me 10% off my room for the week. That’s work, innit?
    Which chain so I can avoid the one that allow z class celebs in.

    Sandy lane has a problem with that but I usually only end up walking through it when I've got the tides wrong on the walk up to Hole Town.

    There’s been some funny stories in Dubai about all these ‘influencers’. They’ve been spotted coming out of 3-star hotels and heading for the public beach, or spotted taking photos in a dozen different outfits in one day, having bought a leisure day-pass to one of the nice hotels - then spending the next month giving the impression that they’re staying in a five-star resort that costs $500 a night. Also, giving the stewardess a £20 tip to spend five minutes in a business-class seat for the selfies, or doing so when everyone’s leaving the plane.

    It’s all a mirage and a fantasy, and sadly a whole load of young people are completely taken in by this culture.
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    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    There is no surge in "al fresco defacation" here in Kent. We have been quite relieved (no pun intended) TBH. That is because the expecation we were given was of complee gridlock but what we have ended up with is not anywhere near that. That may change but the increase in people releiving themselves on the M20 has not happened (yet). There is a new lorry park but mostly Manston Airport has been repurposed.

    Indeed. Kent has largely been saved thanks to the almost total collapse of trade across the channel. Hurrah!
    Isn't it at 70% of previous? That's not a total collapse.
    Reported as 15% of previous. People posting from Euroshuttle trains that are almost entirely empty etc etc.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Sterling being "too high" is bad news if you're an exporter but the drop from say 1.20€ to €1.10€ doesn't really help. Of course a rise to say €1.35 would be an issue. What you want is currency stability.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
    Also, it's the EU Commission, so, if you're a furious EU citizen and want to punish them for their incompetence, by voting them out of power, you can't. They are unelected. They are under zero political pressure.
    This is not really true, though.

    The real power in the EU is in the Council, which is composed of duly elected heads of government.

    The analog to the Commission is Whitehall.
    You cannot vote out Whitehall, either.
    Granted you can vote for a Boris Johnson who utilises a Dom Cummings to “fix” Whitehall.

    But as of 2021, Dom is gone and Whitehall is still there.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    There is no surge in "al fresco defacation" here in Kent. We have been quite relieved (no pun intended) TBH. That is because the expecation we were given was of complee gridlock but what we have ended up with is not anywhere near that. That may change but the increase in people releiving themselves on the M20 has not happened (yet). There is a new lorry park but mostly Manston Airport has been repurposed.

    Indeed. Kent has largely been saved thanks to the almost total collapse of trade across the channel. Hurrah!
    Isn't it at 70% of previous? That's not a total collapse.
    Reported as 15% of previous. People posting from Euroshuttle trains that are almost entirely empty etc etc.
    Down 29% on average - https://www.coastfm.co.uk/news/business/freight-traffic-slumps-and-costs-soar-as
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Not because it's a manifesto commitment then.

    I'm also very taken with the idea that our present PM would resign because of a matter of principle. Always the chance of a leopard chasing it's spots, I suppose, but it doesn't seem likely.
    Boris would be toppled by his MPs if he granted a legal indyref2 and lost the Union, he knows he could not stay in office as Cameron knew the same had he lost in 2014.

    He can stay in office however ignoring Sturgeon, most Tory MPs could not care about her whinging or that of the SNP

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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,557
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Piers Morgan is also wrong to say we have the highest death rate in the world. Of non micro-countries, Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia are all higher, in terms of deaths per M.

    Still not great, however.

    We will be in front of Czechia by the end of today. Belgium and Slovenia are some way off but we're closer to our current peak than they are so might be able to overtake them.
    This plague is still accelerating, globally. By the end of 2021, or the middle of 2022, that table could look completely different, and the UK could be 10th, 20th, whatever. Or we could be top.
    "This plague is still accellerating globally". Well, I know that Worldometers is far from perfect, but...


    I was looking at the death chart. The case rate is much less reliable as an indicator, as testing varies so much from country to country. Deaths are still surging, as you can see. We also know that new, nastier, more infectious and more dangerous mutations have recently emerged, which is a bad augury.

    But I hope you are right and I am wrong.
    South Africa's death chart (below) hardly shows an accelleration though. Also, while testing varies from nation to nation, they are consistent within nations, and Worldometers reports those variations accross countries consistently and adds them up in aggregate for their global total rather than comparing apples with oranges.


    Fair enough. I'll grant you there is some very tentative evidence that the global case-load might be slowing. I still fear the worst is yet to come, especially in poorer countries, as they yield to the new variants without vaccines to defend them.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,146
    Congrats to Dom Sibley on his 50.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Leon said:

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
    Also, it's the EU Commission, so, if you're a furious EU citizen and want to punish them for their incompetence, by voting them out of power, you can't. They are unelected. They are under zero political pressure.
    This is not really true, though.

    The real power in the EU is in the Council, which is composed of duly elected heads of government.

    The analog to the Commission is Whitehall.
    You cannot vote out Whitehall, either.
    Granted you can vote for a Boris Johnson who utilises a Dom Cummings to “fix” Whitehall.

    But as of 2021, Dom is gone and Whitehall is still there.
    Is that true? I thought the commission was the sole body that could propose laws, for example.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,345
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    My late father was the Deputy Head of a Comprehensive School. He worked like a dog. The Headmaster was more like the figurehead, pressing flesh and schmoozing with the great and the good of Hereford and Worcester County (as was).

    My late mother was a music teacher and later Head of Music at a grammar school. When I was at university and living at home she used to pay me to do her marking. I had NFI what I was doing.
    Another reason to abolish Grammar Schools!
    Far from it, we should have more of them if parents want them
    You can never persuade me over this subject. I went to both a fantastic Comprehensive School and a dreadful Grammar School.
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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,179
    Sean_F said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A lower currency is good news for domestic industry and exporters.
    Because it is a wage cut. The idea that a fall in the currency is something to be welcomed is a popular misconception among armchair economists. Mercantilism is one of those surprisingly persistent discredited ideas.
    It depends what proportion of one's purchases are in a foreign currency. The impact of a fall in the currency is reflected in the rate of inflation. The pound has lost 75% of its value compared to the dollar since 1945, but no one would say that UK real wages are lower now than they were in 1945.

    Conversely, the value of sterling soared in 1979-80, but no one would say the UK was getting richer in that period.
    Of course real wages have risen since 1945, because of real productivity growth. Successful export economies tend to achieve that success by becoming more productive and competitive, and often have quite strong currencies as a result, not by trying to engineer pay cuts through a devalued currency, which tends to result only in inflation over the long run. Certainly exchange rates can diverge from their long run equilibrium level for some time, as GBP did in the early 1980s as a result of inappropriately tight monetary policy (monetarism being the stupid religion of the Tory right at that point). The fall in GBP since the EU referendum first emerged as a serious prospect has persisted long enough to appear like an equilibrium phenomenon. The idea that it is anything other than a bad sign about the real impact of Brexit on the UK's competitiveness is fantasy, in my opinion.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wonderful stuff from @HYUFD this morning pledging "razor wire" along Hadrians Wall. A finer advocate for Scottish Independence you will not find. And he plays it so deliciously deadpan, like he doesn't understand that what he says and what he claims he believes (e.g. in the Union) are diametrically opposed.

    There would be customs posts and a hard border with Scotland if it rejoined the EU, the EEA or an EU Customs Union now having voted to leave the UK.

    That is inevitable and that would not have been the case in 2014 when the UK was still in the EU
    There aren't customs posts, razor wire or a hard border along the Irish border. Your party foamed on about digital solutions for such things, yet here you are gleefully threatening them for Scotland.

    Your petty bigotry towards anyone who isn't you is self-evident. Don't vote Tory? You opinion has no value. Not English? Off with you. Which group is next. Gayers? Darkies?

    You truly are a reprehensible excuse for a Unionist. A marvellous advocate for the ending of the UK every time you speak.
    Ireland is different as Northern Ireland has a land border with an EU member state, there are still customs checks and border posts between GB and NI effectively now, even if the UK and EU trade deal has reduced them.

    Scotland has no border with an EU member state, so Scexit would mean a hard border with England if Scotland rejoined the EU.
    You sir are a xenophobic cretin. Scotland would be the EU state. I truly hope that you are running to be an MP, your kind of parochial bigotry truly is an asset to the Conservative Party.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,439
    edited January 2021

    Congrats to Dom Sibley on his 50.

    Very fine innings. Without him, England would be more screwed than an intern in the Clinton White House. But he's taken them to the very brink of an absolutely sensational victory. Not quite India at the Gabbatoir, but still an achievement to savour if they pull it off.

    Edit - and Buttler's had a fabulous match as well.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,146
    5 to win.
  • Options

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Of course the border is actually more than 2 miles north of Berwick. You have to go past the lovely Morrisons first.

    I passed my driving test on my 17th birthday, (My father had taught me for months on an old disused airfield) and to celebrate I drove his Austin Westminster on my own of course at a very fast speed (speed not admitted) along the stretch from Berwick and over the border only stopping when I arrived at Eyemouth
    How did you get an Austin Westminster up to a very fast speed?

    Was it downhill? :smile:
    It was amazingly powerful

    This was in 1961 and it exceeded 100mph
    That's interesting, and more than the specs claim.
    It was a very heavy car and it was being pushed on the flat to its maximum

    I did not tell my Father, obviously !!!!!
    My first car was my father's old Westminster. 3 litre engine with a 3 speed gearbox (kickdown overdrive on 3rd gear). I took possession of it just as the 1970s oil crisis drove petrol prices up to 50p a gallon, which was unfortunate as I was still living on a postgraduate grant at the time.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Funny how the media are now obsessed with hotel quarantine.....in a way they weren't over the summer or Christmas holidays.

    Telegrpah bleating about how it will cost families thousands. Well, err.. how about not going on holiday?
    It is like all the twats at the airports moaning...its not fair, not fair....I am coming back from Barbados and it is taking 2hrs to get through passport control....sorry Barbados, what exactly were you doing there....erhhhhh errhhhh business, yes thats it, business.
    Yeahbut the hotel said if I tag them in three Instagram posts while I’m there, they’ll give me 10% off my room for the week. That’s work, innit?
    Which chain so I can avoid the one that allow z class celebs in.

    Sandy lane has a problem with that but I usually only end up walking through it when I've got the tides wrong on the walk up to Hole Town.

    There’s been some funny stories in Dubai about all these ‘influencers’. They’ve been spotted coming out of 3-star hotels and heading for the public beach, or spotted taking photos in a dozen different outfits in one day, having bought a leisure day-pass to one of the nice hotels - then spending the next month giving the impression that they’re staying in a five-star resort that costs $500 a night. Also, giving the stewardess a £20 tip to spend five minutes in a business-class seat for the selfies, or doing so when everyone’s leaving the plane.

    It’s all a mirage and a fantasy, and sadly a whole load of young people are completely taken in by this culture.
    I think that's the worst bit about it. That so many young people see all this and think it is real and easily achievable, in fact it isn't fair if they don't have it. When in reality, you either have to get incredibly lucky or work your arse off or normally both.
  • Options

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A fall in the pound doesn't make the British people poorer. Inflation makes the British people poorer, but inflation is below target.

    Setting aside Brexit and looking at the economic fundamentals we have below target inflation, a current account deficit, a balance of payments deficit and low savings ratio. If you don't have savings, you have a balance of payments deficit etc then your currency falling is what should happen - not a bad thing.

    The pound has fallen consistently not just in recent years but for the whole of the last century. The last century has been a story of the pound falling. It is falling because we don't save enough, we import too much and export too little. Save more, import less, export more and the pound will stabilise instead of continuing its century-long period of decline.

    But for so long as we have insufficient savings ratio, a balance of payments deficit and the rest of the fundamentals then falling sterling is a good thing not a bad thing. It is a natural stabiliser and when you remove natural stabilisers the pressures on the system go somewhere else they don't go away. Fix savings, fix balance of payments, fix everything else and the pound will stop falling.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news on a Monday morning. Lotus Cars announce £100m investment into Hethel facility, with 250 extra jobs working on new sports car to replace existing Elise, Exige and Evora models.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/lotus-pistonheads/lotus-confirms-type-131-sports-car-for-2021/43660

    Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

    I've always wanted a 2.2 Series 2 Esprit but then when I go to look at one I always recoil from the Morris Marina interior and sub-Marina build quality. They remind me very much of 2CVs; there is an amazing amount of engineering genius in them but 95% of that genius is channeled into making them as cheap as possible to build.
    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Two airlines in the region at the time:

    TACA - take a chance airways; and
    SAHSA - stay at home, stay alive.

    Planes had a habit of driving into the mountain range at the end of the runway at Tegucigalpa.
    The same for Pakistan International Airlines was Please Inform Allah....

    There was a Russian pilot that used to fly out of Bioko Island, Equatorial Guinea, with a parrot on his shoulder. Sadly, he slammed into the volcano there....
    It was quite sobering to see the mountain range at the end of the runway as you were taxiing ready for take off...

    My nearest miss? Happily minding my own business dozing/reading the paper in an Air China BAe146 as we flew through some fog in northern China. Suddenly the plane just changed direction and flew upwards at a near vertical angle, engines roaring (did I imagine that?). And when I looked out of the window we were flying through and amongst a mountain range with the buggers all around.

    Didn't have time to be scared as it was over before anyone realised but have pondered that at moments since.
    Flying into Alderney across the cliffs in a high, gusty, wind wasn't fun.
  • Options

    5 to win.

    Buttler 6 to get his 50?
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    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Spain and China are not British democracies.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
    Also, it's the EU Commission, so, if you're a furious EU citizen and want to punish them for their incompetence, by voting them out of power, you can't. They are unelected. They are under zero political pressure.
    This is not really true, though.

    The real power in the EU is in the Council, which is composed of duly elected heads of government.

    The analog to the Commission is Whitehall.
    You cannot vote out Whitehall, either.
    Granted you can vote for a Boris Johnson who utilises a Dom Cummings to “fix” Whitehall.

    But as of 2021, Dom is gone and Whitehall is still there.
    Is that true? I thought the commission was the sole body that could propose laws, for example.
    Yes, but they essentially do so within the tolerance allowed by the Council.

    If the Council wants something done, it is done.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    My late father was the Deputy Head of a Comprehensive School. He worked like a dog. The Headmaster was more like the figurehead, pressing flesh and schmoozing with the great and the good of Hereford and Worcester County (as was).

    My late mother was a music teacher and later Head of Music at a grammar school. When I was at university and living at home she used to pay me to do her marking. I had NFI what I was doing.
    Another reason to abolish Grammar Schools!
    Far from it, we should have more of them if parents want them
    You can never persuade me over this subject. I went to both a fantastic Comprehensive School and a dreadful Grammar School.
    Fine but it still does not change the fact grammar school pupils are overrepresented at Oxbridge and Russell Group universities and in the top professions like law and medicine and comprehensive school pupils underrepresented. We have also had plenty of ex grammar PMs, we have yet to have a PM who was educated solely at a comprehensive school. May and Brown our only comprehensive educated PMs so far but she also attended an independent school and a grammar and he was in an exclusive academic hothouse stream in separate classes, effectively a grammar in all but name.

    At present you can only ballot to close one of the few remaining grammars, you should still be able to ballot to open new ones as well
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news on a Monday morning. Lotus Cars announce £100m investment into Hethel facility, with 250 extra jobs working on new sports car to replace existing Elise, Exige and Evora models.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/lotus-pistonheads/lotus-confirms-type-131-sports-car-for-2021/43660

    Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

    I've always wanted a 2.2 Series 2 Esprit but then when I go to look at one I always recoil from the Morris Marina interior and sub-Marina build quality. They remind me very much of 2CVs; there is an amazing amount of engineering genius in them but 95% of that genius is channeled into making them as cheap as possible to build.
    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Two airlines in the region at the time:

    TACA - take a chance airways; and
    SAHSA - stay at home, stay alive.

    Planes had a habit of driving into the mountain range at the end of the runway at Tegucigalpa.
    The same for Pakistan International Airlines was Please Inform Allah....

    There was a Russian pilot that used to fly out of Bioko Island, Equatorial Guinea, with a parrot on his shoulder. Sadly, he slammed into the volcano there....
    It was quite sobering to see the mountain range at the end of the runway as you were taxiing ready for take off...

    My nearest miss? Happily minding my own business dozing/reading the paper in an Air China BAe146 as we flew through some fog in northern China. Suddenly the plane just changed direction and flew upwards at a near vertical angle, engines roaring (did I imagine that?). And when I looked out of the window we were flying through and amongst a mountain range with the buggers all around.

    Didn't have time to be scared as it was over before anyone realised but have pondered that at moments since.


    Always struck me as one fo the macabre Farside cartoons.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited January 2021

    twitter.com/DarrenEuronews/status/1353659837935136770?s=20
    https://twitter.com/DarrenEuronews/status/1353660458604109824?s=20

    September of which year? Current rate, 2024 (and no that isn't hyperbolic).
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,146
    Well done England.

    The cricket seems largely unaffected as a sporting contest in this era of Covid.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,096
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    My late father was the Deputy Head of a Comprehensive School. He worked like a dog. The Headmaster was more like the figurehead, pressing flesh and schmoozing with the great and the good of Hereford and Worcester County (as was).

    My late mother was a music teacher and later Head of Music at a grammar school. When I was at university and living at home she used to pay me to do her marking. I had NFI what I was doing.
    Another reason to abolish Grammar Schools!
    Far from it, we should have more of them if parents want them
    You can never persuade me over this subject. I went to both a fantastic Comprehensive School and a dreadful Grammar School.
    Fine but it still does not change the fact grammar school pupils are overrepresented at Oxbridge and Russell Group universities and in the top professions like law and medicine and comprehensive school pupils underrepresented. We have also had plenty of ex grammar PMs, we have yet to have a PM who was educated solely at a comprehensive school. May is our only comprehensive educated PM so far but she also attended an independent school and a grammar.

    At present you can only ballot to close one of the few remaining grammars, you should still be able to ballot to open new ones as well
    Are the remaining grammar schools in nice middle class areas by any chance?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,439
    And England win.

    I think the most remarkable thing about this is they've chased the highest score by a visiting side here and they made it look actually quite easy.
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    Have we established whether the razor wire will be needed to keep the Scots out or the English in?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    England win, and Sibley scores the winning run.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    I'm disappointed that HY hasn't (yet) suggested gunboats in the Tweed.

    He'd probably send them up the Tyne.......
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    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    There is no surge in "al fresco defacation" here in Kent. We have been quite relieved (no pun intended) TBH. That is because the expecation we were given was of complee gridlock but what we have ended up with is not anywhere near that. That may change but the increase in people releiving themselves on the M20 has not happened (yet). There is a new lorry park but mostly Manston Airport has been repurposed.

    Indeed. Kent has largely been saved thanks to the almost total collapse of trade across the channel. Hurrah!
    Isn't it at 70% of previous? That's not a total collapse.
    Reported as 15% of previous. People posting from Euroshuttle trains that are almost entirely empty etc etc.
    Down 29% on average - https://www.coastfm.co.uk/news/business/freight-traffic-slumps-and-costs-soar-as
    So do you have any relevant data on Dover - Calais? You have just posted "Daily truck volumes between Britain and European Union countries, including France, Ireland and the Netherlands" which isn't remotely what we are talking about.

    The Road Haulage Association are quoted in the Mail that traffic has now recovered to 33% of normal. 2,000 trucks a day each way as opposed to the usual 6,000. That's trucks - significant volumes go by van for JIT deliveries. Van hauliers reporting almost entire absences of other vans.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9170335/Government-warns-worsening-chaos-Britains-ports-lorry-traffic-returns-normal-levels.html
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,439

    England win, and Sibley scores the winning run.

    If Sibley becomes a half decent player of spin, that would be a result and a half. Would make him a pretty complete opener.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Have we established whether the razor wire will be needed to keep the Scots out or the English in?

    A little from column A, a little from column B.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,146

    5 to win.

    Buttler 6 to get his 50?
    No. Sadly.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Not because it's a manifesto commitment then.

    I'm also very taken with the idea that our present PM would resign because of a matter of principle. Always the chance of a leopard chasing it's spots, I suppose, but it doesn't seem likely.
    Boris would be toppled by his MPs if he granted a legal indyref2 and lost the Union, he knows he could not stay in office as Cameron knew the same had he lost in 2014.

    He can stay in office however ignoring Sturgeon, most Tory MPs could not care about her whinging or that of the SNP

    Re your last sentence is arrogant and it is time for the party to give consideration to a genuine issue

    If I was Boris I would allow a free vote on section 30 and would expect the HOC to reject it leaving the SNP to decide how to resolve the issue
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Wonderful stuff from @HYUFD this morning pledging "razor wire" along Hadrians Wall. A finer advocate for Scottish Independence you will not find. And he plays it so deliciously deadpan, like he doesn't understand that what he says and what he claims he believes (e.g. in the Union) are diametrically opposed.

    There would be customs posts and a hard border with Scotland if it rejoined the EU, the EEA or an EU Customs Union now having voted to leave the UK.

    That is inevitable and that would not have been the case in 2014 when the UK was still in the EU
    There aren't customs posts, razor wire or a hard border along the Irish border. Your party foamed on about digital solutions for such things, yet here you are gleefully threatening them for Scotland.

    Your petty bigotry towards anyone who isn't you is self-evident. Don't vote Tory? You opinion has no value. Not English? Off with you. Which group is next. Gayers? Darkies?

    You truly are a reprehensible excuse for a Unionist. A marvellous advocate for the ending of the UK every time you speak.
    Ireland is different as Northern Ireland has a land border with an EU member state, there are still customs checks and border posts between GB and NI effectively now, even if the UK and EU trade deal has reduced them.

    Scotland has no border with an EU member state, so Scexit would mean a hard border with England if Scotland rejoined the EU.
    You sir are a xenophobic cretin. Scotland would be the EU state. I truly hope that you are running to be an MP, your kind of parochial bigotry truly is an asset to the Conservative Party.
    Then Scotland would have the same hard border we have with the EU now, tough
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,439
    Permission for mouth to water at the thought of England v India.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Have we established whether the razor wire will be needed to keep the Scots out or the English in?

    A little from column A, a little from column B.
    Razor wire is needed around Epping. To keep HYUFD away from civilisation.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news on a Monday morning. Lotus Cars announce £100m investment into Hethel facility, with 250 extra jobs working on new sports car to replace existing Elise, Exige and Evora models.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/lotus-pistonheads/lotus-confirms-type-131-sports-car-for-2021/43660

    Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

    I've always wanted a 2.2 Series 2 Esprit but then when I go to look at one I always recoil from the Morris Marina interior and sub-Marina build quality. They remind me very much of 2CVs; there is an amazing amount of engineering genius in them but 95% of that genius is channeled into making them as cheap as possible to build.
    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Two airlines in the region at the time:

    TACA - take a chance airways; and
    SAHSA - stay at home, stay alive.

    Planes had a habit of driving into the mountain range at the end of the runway at Tegucigalpa.
    The same for Pakistan International Airlines was Please Inform Allah....

    There was a Russian pilot that used to fly out of Bioko Island, Equatorial Guinea, with a parrot on his shoulder. Sadly, he slammed into the volcano there....
    It was quite sobering to see the mountain range at the end of the runway as you were taxiing ready for take off...

    My nearest miss? Happily minding my own business dozing/reading the paper in an Air China BAe146 as we flew through some fog in northern China. Suddenly the plane just changed direction and flew upwards at a near vertical angle, engines roaring (did I imagine that?). And when I looked out of the window we were flying through and amongst a mountain range with the buggers all around.

    Didn't have time to be scared as it was over before anyone realised but have pondered that at moments since.
    Flying into Alderney across the cliffs in a high, gusty, wind wasn't fun.
    I loved cross wind landings on the Trislander - as a former pilot I knew the plane was supposed to fly into the wind and not "point at the runway" as my increasingly nervous companion fretted!
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,557

    Interesting video...by the time we get to autumn, could easily have be getting jabbed with a different vaccine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sbqXgWzhEU

    That's an excellent interview. He's lucid, plausible, calm, generally positive, but also soberingly honest.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    My late father was the Deputy Head of a Comprehensive School. He worked like a dog. The Headmaster was more like the figurehead, pressing flesh and schmoozing with the great and the good of Hereford and Worcester County (as was).

    My late mother was a music teacher and later Head of Music at a grammar school. When I was at university and living at home she used to pay me to do her marking. I had NFI what I was doing.
    Another reason to abolish Grammar Schools!
    Far from it, we should have more of them if parents want them
    You can never persuade me over this subject. I went to both a fantastic Comprehensive School and a dreadful Grammar School.
    Fine but it still does not change the fact grammar school pupils are overrepresented at Oxbridge and Russell Group universities and in the top professions like law and medicine and comprehensive school pupils underrepresented. We have also had plenty of ex grammar PMs, we have yet to have a PM who was educated solely at a comprehensive school. May is our only comprehensive educated PM so far but she also attended an independent school and a grammar.

    At present you can only ballot to close one of the few remaining grammars, you should still be able to ballot to open new ones as well
    Are the remaining grammar schools in nice middle class areas by any chance?
    They are needed most in poorer areas I agree, middle class parents can send their kids to Outstanding Comprehensives or Academies, frequently church schools, in nice middle class areas even if there are no grammars there.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,071
    RobD said:

    In total, the UK and US have each spent about seven times more upfront, per capita, on vaccine development, procurement and production than the European bloc, according to data gathered by Airfinity, a London-based life sciences analytics company. 

    While the figures include different types of funding and might not be exactly comparable, the data suggest EU member states should have used more economic firepower earlier to finance upgrades of factories and vaccine raw materials suppliers, said Rasmus Bech Hansen, Airfinity’s chief executive. 

    “It’s tricky but I just think there are special circumstances in a pandemic,” he said. “Everything is a trade-off and timing is just so critical — weeks and months mean a lot.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/c9bbc753-97fb-493a-bbb6-dd97a7c4b807


    Why exactly were people clamouring for the UK to join the EU scheme?
    As a one time LibDem, and therefore with an interest in bar charts, does the figure for the EU include the contributions from individual countries?
    Or is it just the EU itself?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,146

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Some good news on a Monday morning. Lotus Cars announce £100m investment into Hethel facility, with 250 extra jobs working on new sports car to replace existing Elise, Exige and Evora models.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/lotus-pistonheads/lotus-confirms-type-131-sports-car-for-2021/43660

    Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious

    I've always wanted a 2.2 Series 2 Esprit but then when I go to look at one I always recoil from the Morris Marina interior and sub-Marina build quality. They remind me very much of 2CVs; there is an amazing amount of engineering genius in them but 95% of that genius is channeled into making them as cheap as possible to build.
    LOL did you go to Belize at all?

    Two airlines in the region at the time:

    TACA - take a chance airways; and
    SAHSA - stay at home, stay alive.

    Planes had a habit of driving into the mountain range at the end of the runway at Tegucigalpa.
    The same for Pakistan International Airlines was Please Inform Allah....

    There was a Russian pilot that used to fly out of Bioko Island, Equatorial Guinea, with a parrot on his shoulder. Sadly, he slammed into the volcano there....
    It was quite sobering to see the mountain range at the end of the runway as you were taxiing ready for take off...

    My nearest miss? Happily minding my own business dozing/reading the paper in an Air China BAe146 as we flew through some fog in northern China. Suddenly the plane just changed direction and flew upwards at a near vertical angle, engines roaring (did I imagine that?). And when I looked out of the window we were flying through and amongst a mountain range with the buggers all around.

    Didn't have time to be scared as it was over before anyone realised but have pondered that at moments since.
    Flying into Alderney across the cliffs in a high, gusty, wind wasn't fun.
    Christiano Ronaldo in Madeira. That's a fun one in Funchal....
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    glwglw Posts: 9,554

    In total, the UK and US have each spent about seven times more upfront, per capita, on vaccine development, procurement and production than the European bloc, according to data gathered by Airfinity, a London-based life sciences analytics company. 

    While the figures include different types of funding and might not be exactly comparable, the data suggest EU member states should have used more economic firepower earlier to finance upgrades of factories and vaccine raw materials suppliers, said Rasmus Bech Hansen, Airfinity’s chief executive. 

    “It’s tricky but I just think there are special circumstances in a pandemic,” he said. “Everything is a trade-off and timing is just so critical — weeks and months mean a lot.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/c9bbc753-97fb-493a-bbb6-dd97a7c4b807


    Given the damage the pandemic and lockdowns cause there's really no reason to be counting the pennies when it comes to vaccines or treatments. I honestly think we should be spending more, I'd certainly want to be confident we are ready for another round of vaccinating (with new vaccines) in the coming winter, and preparing for the years ahead.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,608
    Leon said:

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
    Also, it's the EU Commission, so, if you're a furious EU citizen and want to punish them for their incompetence, by voting them out of power, you can't. They are unelected. They are under zero political pressure.
    I have the strangest idea of what the EU "suggestion" will be to make up the shortfall.

    Obvious really....
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,835
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    There is no surge in "al fresco defacation" here in Kent. We have been quite relieved (no pun intended) TBH. That is because the expecation we were given was of complee gridlock but what we have ended up with is not anywhere near that. That may change but the increase in people releiving themselves on the M20 has not happened (yet). There is a new lorry park but mostly Manston Airport has been repurposed.

    Indeed. Kent has largely been saved thanks to the almost total collapse of trade across the channel. Hurrah!
    Isn't it at 70% of previous? That's not a total collapse.
    Reported as 15% of previous. People posting from Euroshuttle trains that are almost entirely empty etc etc.
    Down 29% on average - https://www.coastfm.co.uk/news/business/freight-traffic-slumps-and-costs-soar-as
    Pretty grim report to cite in defence!
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    Have we established whether the razor wire will be needed to keep the Scots out or the English in?

    It could be our own Berlin Wall.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,403
    ydoethur said:

    England win, and Sibley scores the winning run.

    If Sibley becomes a half decent player of spin, that would be a result and a half. Would make him a pretty complete opener.
    It was a very good effort by him after an extremely disappointing series. Shows real character and that is important. An excellent result for England but Sri Lanka are nowhere near the team they were 10 years ago. They were a team that England should be beating 2-0 and they have. On to sterner things.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited January 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Talking of border guards, this potential stand-off between Johnson and Sturgeon worries me. I don't think any of us wants to see Johnson sending in the police to arrest key SNP leaders, Catalonia-style.

    Which police would he send in?
    If his only recourse was to UK-wide, centrally commanded military forces, that really would be the end of the union.
    Spain and China both responded to secessionist movements by arresting the key leaders, Catalonia remains part of Spain without its nationalist government having been given even one legal independence referendum, Hong Kong remains part of China and China has removed anti Beijing, pro democracy leaders from the Hong Kong Assembly.

    A crackdown may not be advisable but Boris is not going to grant a legal indyref2 knowing he would be more likely to lose it than say Sunak or Starmer would and if he lost it he would have to resign as PM. So why risk it?
    Not because it's a manifesto commitment then.

    I'm also very taken with the idea that our present PM would resign because of a matter of principle. Always the chance of a leopard chasing it's spots, I suppose, but it doesn't seem likely.
    Boris would be toppled by his MPs if he granted a legal indyref2 and lost the Union, he knows he could not stay in office as Cameron knew the same had he lost in 2014.

    He can stay in office however ignoring Sturgeon, most Tory MPs could not care about her whinging or that of the SNP

    Re your last sentence is arrogant and it is time for the party to give consideration to a genuine issue

    If I was Boris I would allow a free vote on section 30 and would expect the HOC to reject it leaving the SNP to decide how to resolve the issue
    Which means Boris would then still reject it after the Commons vote and there would still be the same confrontation with Sturgeon and the SNP
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited January 2021
    Talking influencers etc. The most worrying thing is not only all these knobheads photoshopping pictures of their abs and arse, these platforms are now being used to push dodgy incredibly expense get rich quick courses on things like Forex and Amazon FBA. Yes this kind of over-priced "education" of questionable legality has existed for donkeys years, but with so many youngsters on these platforms it is targeting a much younger and more impressionable demographic.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Piers Morgan is also wrong to say we have the highest death rate in the world. Of non micro-countries, Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia are all higher, in terms of deaths per M.

    Still not great, however.

    We will be in front of Czechia by the end of today. Belgium and Slovenia are some way off but we're closer to our current peak than they are so might be able to overtake them.
    This plague is still accelerating, globally. By the end of 2021, or the middle of 2022, that table could look completely different, and the UK could be 10th, 20th, whatever. Or we could be top.
    "This plague is still accellerating globally". Well, I know that Worldometers is far from perfect, but...


    I was looking at the death chart. The case rate is much less reliable as an indicator, as testing varies so much from country to country. Deaths are still surging, as you can see. We also know that new, nastier, more infectious and more dangerous mutations have recently emerged, which is a bad augury.

    But I hope you are right and I am wrong.
    South Africa's death chart (below) hardly shows an accelleration though. Also, while testing varies from nation to nation, they are consistent within nations, and Worldometers reports those variations accross countries consistently and adds them up in aggregate for their global total rather than comparing apples with oranges.


    You have to be careful with the Worldometer charts. They are based on the datasource they can get and so are deeply inconsistent which makes their "adding up" basically nonsense for the last week at least.

    The UK deaths chart is based on day of report


    The Sweden death chart is based on date of death



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    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,179

    One thing I do respect about HYUFD is that he voted Remain and has never recanted from conceding that Brexit is economically damaging (albeit necessary, having voted for it).

    That’s actually a lot more honest than many posters who scoffed unto the end that any economic harm was just “Project Fear”.

    Virtually everything that was warned about Brexit that was dismissed as "project fear" has largely come to pass. The only real Project Fear was that used by Leave fascists who wanted the gullible to believe that they were about to be overrun by Romanians
    I’d give it about 8/10.

    Slower growth? Check.
    Fall in pound? Check.
    Increased inflation? Only a little only (so far)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check.
    Loss of rights? Check.
    Damage to relations with key allies? Check.
    Loss of U.K. influence? Check.
    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    I'd give it the following
    Fall in pound? Check. (But I'd argue in the circumstances this is a good thing)
    Increased indy sentiment? Check.
    Trade restrictions? Check. (Negligible, just paperwork not tariffs etc)
    Loss of rights? Check. (Those that were acknowkledged during the referendum)

    Slower growth? ❌
    - Objectively the UK had faster, not slower, growth than the Eurozone in the past decade "despite Brexit"

    Increased inflation? ❌
    - Objectively the UK has below-target inflation.

    Succour to populists and alt-rightest? ❌
    - Objectively opinion polls are showing reduced tolerance of alt-rightists and populists and greater acceptance of immigrants and immigration.

    Loss of U.K. influence? ❌
    - I can't see any objective way to measure this but UK has been capable of reaching agreements with those they want to do so, on a similar basis as we could before.

    Damage to relations with key allies? ❌
    - Allies have accepted Brexit and moved on. They view it as Britain being Britain and not objectively damaged.

    Fall in house prices? Not really.
    - Which is a shame but nevermind.
    A fall in the pound makes British people poorer and so cannot be considered, in itself, to be a good thing. It may be a necessary thing, given other factors (eg if you hinder your exporters and damage your productive capacity, you will need a weaker currency to restore your competitiveness). With a floating exchange rate the currency will find its level. If that level is significantly lower than before, that is telling you something, and it isn't good.
    A fall in the pound doesn't make the British people poorer. Inflation makes the British people poorer, but inflation is below target.

    Setting aside Brexit and looking at the economic fundamentals we have below target inflation, a current account deficit, a balance of payments deficit and low savings ratio. If you don't have savings, you have a balance of payments deficit etc then your currency falling is what should happen - not a bad thing.

    The pound has fallen consistently not just in recent years but for the whole of the last century. The last century has been a story of the pound falling. It is falling because we don't save enough, we import too much and export too little. Save more, import less, export more and the pound will stabilise instead of continuing its century-long period of decline.

    But for so long as we have insufficient savings ratio, a balance of payments deficit and the rest of the fundamentals then falling sterling is a good thing not a bad thing. It is a natural stabiliser and when you remove natural stabilisers the pressures on the system go somewhere else they don't go away. Fix savings, fix balance of payments, fix everything else and the pound will stop falling.
    We don't have inflation now because GBP is stable now. Following its devaluation in 2016 CPI inflation went from 0% to 3%, and inflation for heavily imported items went up even more (food inflation from - 3% to 4%). As you say, the fall in the currency is a natural stabiliser. What is it stabilising? What happened in 2016 that made FX market participants think we would be finding it harder to make our living in the world, so that we needed to make our workers cheaper to compensate? We all know the answer.
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    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Wouldn't their whinging have a little more credibility if they'd managed to get around to approving the AZ vaccine by now?
    And ordered sooner rather than taking their time haggling over the price, and invested more in production and development.

    But it's the EU, so it can't be their fault, and to criticise it means you're anti-European.
    Also, it's the EU Commission, so, if you're a furious EU citizen and want to punish them for their incompetence, by voting them out of power, you can't. They are unelected. They are under zero political pressure.
    This is not really true, though.

    The real power in the EU is in the Council, which is composed of duly elected heads of government.

    The analog to the Commission is Whitehall.
    You cannot vote out Whitehall, either.
    Granted you can vote for a Boris Johnson who utilises a Dom Cummings to “fix” Whitehall.

    But as of 2021, Dom is gone and Whitehall is still there.
    Is that true? I thought the commission was the sole body that could propose laws, for example.
    Yes, but they essentially do so within the tolerance allowed by the Council.

    If the Council wants something done, it is done.
    And the Council isn't elected at a European election on a European manifesto commitment.

    The European Parliament is but its not a real Parliament in the way we understand it. The question to ask is if the European Parliament wants to pass (or repeal) a law against the wishes of the Commission and the Council then can it do so? To which the answer is no.

    Could a European "Benn Act" opposed by the Commission President pass because Parliament wants it passing? No, it can not. It can in the UK - unlikely most of the time, but it can and has in our recent past.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited January 2021
    There are no tanks in Baghdad....I mean no wonder Italy are so pissed off, they got off to a decent start on vaccinations, but now no supply and down to 10-15k jabs a day.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Piers Morgan is also wrong to say we have the highest death rate in the world. Of non micro-countries, Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia are all higher, in terms of deaths per M.

    Still not great, however.

    We will be in front of Czechia by the end of today. Belgium and Slovenia are some way off but we're closer to our current peak than they are so might be able to overtake them.
    Spain and Portugal will be shooting upwards in terms of death rates, very soon.
    I don't get this trying to rate performance

    That only works if every country is counting deaths in exactly the same way - and even then there will be other factors in play.

    We know for sure (and a couple have admitted) that deaths are under reported in certain countries.

    I'm not excusing any mistakes our government has made but it seems to me at times that some people on here are using this purely as a stick to beat a government they don't like with



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    glwglw Posts: 9,554

    Interesting video...by the time we get to autumn, could easily have be getting jabbed with a different vaccine.

    Anyone thinking this is all over soon is just plain daft.
This discussion has been closed.