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Leave looks like…Has Brexit met Vote Leave’s prospectus? – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    This is very petty stuff. The histrionics over the government trumpeting the one success it seems to have had is so very phoney and not remotely convincing.

    I dont believe any government anywhere does not overegg their successes, painting it as some horror story is lame as well.

    As other places accelerate their programmes we shall see relative performance, but of course the government emphasises early success. I dont believe people are genuinely outraged by that.
    Otto English is a fair and unbiased arbiter, just like Paul J Watson
    The government will overdo its self praise. But if I'm to believe its shocking or egregious that any government does that? Pull the other one.
  • kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    Hey, when you get 3 patriotic parrots in quick succession, what’s a boy to do?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    Comparisons between countries regarding deaths or vaccination policy or whatever seem to me to be quite fair.

    Different countries are trying different things. The only way we find out what works is by looking at country to country comparisons.

    We are all guinea pigs in a live experiment between 193 countries.

    E.g., I think it is good from a scientific point of view that Sweden tried a different policy. It is unfortunate from Sweden's point of view that it failed.

    It is obvious now that Sweden's policy has failed by looking at comparisons between similar European countries, but I don't think it was obvious a priori that it would fail.

    Some of the COVID triumphalism is unnecessary, but we absolutely need to do country by country comparisons.

    And in the UK, I think it is good that we are looking at the performance of E, W, S and NI separately. We all benefit from such healthy competition.

    I don't disagree, but in your first sentence you mention 'comparisons between countries regarding deaths or vaccination policy'.

    While we boast, patriotically and with justification, about our vaccine rollout, we are more reticent about our deaths.

    I can't imagine a Conservative tweet saying: Highest death toll in Europe! In Western Europe, only Belgium and Italy have a higher death rate (per million) than the UK! How's about that for world-beating!

    I just wish we had a bit more dignity, and a bit more balance, instead of this embarrassing and rather petty triumphalism. It's in all our interests that everybody, globally, gets vaccinated as soon as possible. And as I've said before, it's rather early to be celebrating vaccine uptake.
    It's a function of the Gotcha! system of political debate.

    Since the negative side is from opponents trying to get another one-line Gotcha!.. The natural reaction is a string of one-line Awesomes!
  • kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    This is very petty stuff. The histrionics over the government trumpeting the one success it seems to have had is so very phoney and not remotely convincing.

    I dont believe any government anywhere does not overegg their successes, painting it as some horror story is lame as well.

    As other places accelerate their programmes we shall see relative performance, but of course the government emphasises early success. I dont believe people are genuinely outraged by that.
    Otto English is a fair and unbiased arbiter, just like Paul J Watson
    The government will overdo its self praise. But if I'm to believe its shocking or egregious that any government does that? Pull the other one.
    Which governments have used the terms world beating and no.1 in relation to COVID?
  • Michael R. Sherwin, the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, called the investigation into the attack on the Capitol “unmatched” in scope and said it had already resulted in more than 170 cases involving 100,000 digital tips. He pledged that prosecutors could file charges of seditious conspiracy, murder and other serious felonies in the weeks ahead.

    NYTimes

    Some of the whackos are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail.

    Considering five people are dead (6, but 5 directly) then they could all theoretically be charged with felony murder.
    Can they be charged with the murder of the guy who tasered his own bollocks and had a heart attack...?
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013

    Mango said:

    Alastair you are so embittered about Brexit. As a remainer I've had the good grace to drop it and move on. You should too.

    It's done. Finished. Over. We left the EU and for good or ill we have to get on with it.

    There are other more important things for us now to focus on.

    No. This is how we have ended up in the zero-accountability country.
    By 2024 the UK will have had an election where you can kick the buggers out.

    How does that compare with the timetable for chucking out the EU ruling class - those who fucked up their vaccine programme, at the cost of how many tens of thousand dead?
    We can't kick the buggers out, despite the vast majority of people not voting for them. Nor can we do anything about the upper house, or quangos, or the media, or the old boy network.

    We live in an oligarchy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Who do we think the holy 17 Republican Senators might be then?

    I've seen two definites on here this morning, and three more probables.

    The rest?

    (PS. Success also depends on Pelosi and her acolytes making this all about America and her constitution, with precisely zero partisan attacks on the Reps and Democrat grandstanding - I'm not holding my breath on that.)
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited January 2021

    Michael R. Sherwin, the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, called the investigation into the attack on the Capitol “unmatched” in scope and said it had already resulted in more than 170 cases involving 100,000 digital tips. He pledged that prosecutors could file charges of seditious conspiracy, murder and other serious felonies in the weeks ahead.

    NYTimes

    Some of the whackos are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail.

    Considering five people are dead (6, but 5 directly) then they could all theoretically be charged with felony murder.
    Can they be charged with the murder of the guy who tasered his own bollocks and had a heart attack...?
    Um according to Snopes and his wife he didn't
    https://twitter.com/verla_bond/status/1349229524228063233

    Although that does ask the question of when his wife will be charged with illegal trespass as she is now claiming to be there.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Currently facing the dilemma of how much water to drink before an exam. Too little and i’ll be dehydrated but too much and i’ll need the toilet pretty rapidly. This is almost as stressful as the exam itself. 😱
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    It is a competition.

    It is a competition against the virus. Do you get T-cells etc from having been infected, or from having been vaccinated.

    This isn't something to dawdle about with. Every day wasted when we have a vaccine is potentially extra avoidable deaths and more economic disruption.
    Are any other metrics worth competing over, or shall we just stick with the good one and pretend the rest didn't/won't happen?

    Thought so, fair enough.
  • Has Brexit met my expectations? Yes, it has indeed. It has been totally shit, it continues to be shit and it will carry on being shit. Pretty much everything that those of us that thought it was a pointless waste of time have come to pass, and it has not benefitted the UK one iota. Ultimately some people will have to pay the price. It probably won't be those that bullshitted their way to "victory".

    That said, we have to move on Mr. Meeks. We have to make the best of a bad lot. We have an incompetent buffoon as PM, but as many have said, though the bar is very low, at least he is not Corbyn! We have an economy that will certainly massively damaged by the double whammy of Covid and the stupidity of Brexit, but at least we are not Zimbabwe. We have a level political leadership that is pretty awful on all sides, but at least we are not China.

    As my Irish mother would say, let us be grateful for small mercies.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Who do we think the holy 17 Republican Senators might be then?

    I've seen two definites on here this morning, and three more probables.

    The rest?

    (PS. Success also depends on Pelosi and her acolytes making this all about America and her constitution, with precisely zero partisan attacks on the Reps and Democrat grandstanding - I'm not holding my breath on that.)

    When it comes down to it, very little chance of either a bunch of Republican Senators risking a primary, nor of Pelosi not going over the top in her partisanship.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574

    Currently facing the dilemma of how much water to drink before an exam. Too little and i’ll be dehydrated but too much and i’ll need the toilet pretty rapidly. This is almost as stressful as the exam itself. 😱

    The trick is to hydrate a sufficient amount of time (at least an hour) before the exam so you need to pee before it starts.
    This advice may come too late, so good luck.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Dura_Ace said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Only one fleg. I question their patriotism.
    Keir has snookered himself again, now it turns out that the flag is the emblem of the Conservative Party. If he continues to appear with his he is just endorsing them (again) and if he stops, that proves he was a commie internationalist all along.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally Mango here is a European political scientist, author and former politician who is saying the same thing with regards to vaccines. That the UK is doing better because of the constant pressure on the government to perform is probably correct.

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349100962997272576
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349103017971298311

    That is what democracy does. It holds our government's to account.

    That is what Brexit does. It holds removes the canard of "Europe makes us do it that way" and ensures there is no hiding space for failure.

    If the UK was in the EU's procurement scheme who would have been held to account for its failings? If the UK fails, who is held to account?

    That is the power of democracy.

    No it is just the banal point that most European countries are not very good at vaccinating adults for other things either.


    What's that got to do with the slowness of their rollout? The rates there not hugely down from the UK number.
    Not good for them, but why are there only 17 EU countries on that chart? Where are the Netherlands etc?
    Read the small print at the bottom of the chart.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    This is an excellent article delving into the details of the various vaccines.
    https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/genetic-code-of-covid-19-vaccines/

    Note the (potentially significant) difference between the AZN and Johnson & Johnson vaccines:
    ...Most SARS-CoV-2 vaccines have chosen to use a slightly modified S gene where two amino acids have been changed into Prolines, adding a lot of stability. In lab testing, this increased expression by a factor of fifty. Further ‘HexaPro’ modifications are even more impressive.

    The Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine contains the unmodified Spike, and we don’t know if that has been a factor in the somewhat disappointing performance as reported so far. We may wonder if intellectual property considerations have played a role in foregoing the use of the modification.

    Note: AZD1222 might function well when administered intranasally. When taken nasally, it outperformed its injected performance in this study.
    The Janssen Ad26 vaccine does contain the ‘2PP’ modification, and we anxiously await their numbers, supposedly due January 21st.

    It may be possible that the Janssen vaccine ends up as a very stable single shot solution, and that would simply be wonderful...
  • eek said:

    Michael R. Sherwin, the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, called the investigation into the attack on the Capitol “unmatched” in scope and said it had already resulted in more than 170 cases involving 100,000 digital tips. He pledged that prosecutors could file charges of seditious conspiracy, murder and other serious felonies in the weeks ahead.

    NYTimes

    Some of the whackos are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail.

    Considering five people are dead (6, but 5 directly) then they could all theoretically be charged with felony murder.
    Can they be charged with the murder of the guy who tasered his own bollocks and had a heart attack...?
    Um according to Snopes and his wife he didn't
    https://twitter.com/verla_bond/status/1349229524228063233

    Although that does ask the question of when his wife will be charged with illegal trespass as she is now claiming to be there.
    Pity. That story made me howl with laughter.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Who do we think the holy 17 Republican Senators might be then?

    I've seen two definites on here this morning, and three more probables.

    The rest?

    (PS. Success also depends on Pelosi and her acolytes making this all about America and her constitution, with precisely zero partisan attacks on the Reps and Democrat grandstanding - I'm not holding my breath on that.)

    I doubt we'll get 17 but will be pleasantly surprised.

    I love the idea that if it fails it is Pelosi's fault.
  • Michael R. Sherwin, the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, called the investigation into the attack on the Capitol “unmatched” in scope and said it had already resulted in more than 170 cases involving 100,000 digital tips. He pledged that prosecutors could file charges of seditious conspiracy, murder and other serious felonies in the weeks ahead.

    NYTimes

    Some of the whackos are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail.

    Considering five people are dead (6, but 5 directly) then they could all theoretically be charged with felony murder.
    Can they be charged with the murder of the guy who tasered his own bollocks and had a heart attack...?
    Interesting question, but if it was a death caused by the felony, while they were engaged in the felony, then yes as far as I understand it.

    People can and have been accused of the 'murder' of their accomplices in the past, even where the accomplice died because they were shot in self-defence by a homeowner or were shot by the Police. Felony happened, someone died, felony murder is the general rule.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Quite wrong, they should randomly suspend payments to half the lawmakers involved and assess the outcome relative to their primary endpoints.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    I find the boasting distasteful. I also find the ridiculous comparison with New Zealand to be stupid.
  • A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Well, the Conservatives have been taken over for the time being by small minded and petty nationalists who like to sow division and pathetically wrap themselves in a flag . Eventually the idiots will lose their influence because the party is not founded on small minded, divisive and irrational nationalism. The SNP on the other hand.....
  • John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    edited January 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Quite wrong, they should randomly suspend payments to half the lawmakers involved and assess the outcome relative to their primary endpoints.
    ...And the random suspension of payments should be hidden from them (the payers) to make it a properly blind trial.

    Not sure how we get around the problem that the recipients will notice that they are getting placebo money.... Perhaps if we use alternately real bills and Monopoly money in the brown paper bags?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,919
    edited January 2021
    “Every panic button in my office had been torn out — the whole unit,” she said, though they could come up with no rationale as to why. She had used them before and hadn’t switched offices since then.“ https://archive.is/gQN20

    Yeah, I’m sure there’s a totally innocent explanation for why the panic buttons had been ripped out of a representative’s offices on Jan 6th. Is anyone still trying to hold the line that this was a random mob that got out of hand?
  • A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    It is a competition.

    It is a competition against the virus. Do you get T-cells etc from having been infected, or from having been vaccinated.

    This isn't something to dawdle about with. Every day wasted when we have a vaccine is potentially extra avoidable deaths and more economic disruption.
    Are any other metrics worth competing over, or shall we just stick with the good one and pretend the rest didn't/won't happen?

    Thought so, fair enough.
    Other metrics are entirely relevant yes, like genomic sequencing for instance.

    The UK has done half of the planet's genomic sequencing of Covid variants, which enabled us to warn the world about the B117 variant which has caused people to change behaviour and countries to change rules. That probably saved in the UK and globally tens of thousands more deaths by promptly identifying and alerting the world about this new variant that would have just been buried in the sand elsewhere because nobody else was looking for things like that.
  • John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    Redwood believed the Prime Minister when he said there'd be no border down the Irish Sea. Probably so did Boris, given his usual inattention to detail.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    Should have voted through May's deal...

    Numpty
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    kamski said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally Mango here is a European political scientist, author and former politician who is saying the same thing with regards to vaccines. That the UK is doing better because of the constant pressure on the government to perform is probably correct.

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349100962997272576
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349103017971298311

    That is what democracy does. It holds our government's to account.

    That is what Brexit does. It holds removes the canard of "Europe makes us do it that way" and ensures there is no hiding space for failure.

    If the UK was in the EU's procurement scheme who would have been held to account for its failings? If the UK fails, who is held to account?

    That is the power of democracy.

    No it is just the banal point that most European countries are not very good at vaccinating adults for other things either.


    Hopefully those stats bode well for the U.K. vaccine uptake.
    Yes, I think it is the existing health infrastructure In primary care that will benefit the vaccination scheme in the UK. Government is best served by keeping out of their way.
    The UK has managed to get their ducks in a row better than most countries with vaccination:
    Nabbing some of the early supplies
    Getting early approval (I think the 3 weeks or whatever it was wouldn't have made much difference here in Germany because there were no supplies...)
    Having a relatively successful rollout - I'm guessing because of the relatively centralised system and experience with a relatively high number of flu vaccines every year.

    Nabbing early supplies is a bit of a zero sum game, I am glad if the UK got a bit ahead of the EU: both my parents in England (80+) have had their first shots, whereas if the EU had got ahead they would probably still be waiting...
    It's probably for the best that the UK is vaccinating so many more of the most vulnerable, as the UK seems to have had the misfortune to be one of the first places with this more infectious new variant, so potentially lots of lives have been saved. The situation in Ireland might be a lot worse.

    In Germany yesterday 19600 new cases, which is a lot, but I am surprised it is not more. Maybe the new variants haven't really taken off here yet, maybe the lockdown is working a bit. The number in ICU with Covid has been down a little bit the last few days (5230 reported yesterday, compared with 5678 one week ago), which is also somewhat surprising.

    I have the feeling that schools are more closed here than in England. Those children who get "emergency childcare" in the schools aren't taught in the schools but sit distanced with masks taking part in the same online lessons as the children at home (at least locally) - not sure if that is the case in England?
    As I said yesterday I am finding these comparisons between countries as exemplified by that flag advert to be pretty offensive given that the background to this is people dying whether it is in the UK, Germany or Spain.

    The only reasons for making comparisons is to try and identify if some countries can learn from others and do better. The aim should be for everyone to be vaccinated equally in every country as soon as possible so we are all safer.

    Stupid rankings - for all they can add a frisson of excitement - really don't help anyone and only invite mindless attacks in reverse when, as inevitably happens, someone here in the UK also drops the ball.

    I like the graphs showing progress because that is what is happening - progress. But their aim should be to inform and educate so we can get better not to do stupid points scoring or prop up political parties.
    I agree with this. The important thing is to learn the right lessons, and European governments certainly have a lot of lessons to learn as they have nearly all done really badly. Britain in some ways worse than some others because it started with the big advantage of being an island (except N. Ireland). Making it all about Brexit or whatever is unlikely to help learn the right lessons.
    The British government does seem to be worse than some others in terms of the jingoism throughout this pandemic, and generally I think it's less likely for discussions in Britain to be comfortable with the idea that Britain has anything to learn from anywhere else.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    Pity. That story made me howl with laughter.

    right


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,770
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    Whilst the development is welcome and it teaches the very important lesson we try to impress our kids before they are 5, namely that actions have consequences, it does rather highlight the complete corruption of the American system.

    Why on earth are all these companies giving money to random congressmen and senators? Is it for the good of their health? Yes it is. They do it because it gives them protection from state level interference, awkward questions and embarrassment. Its a disgrace. Defunding American politics across the board would undoubtedly improve it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Sandpit said:

    Who do we think the holy 17 Republican Senators might be then?

    I've seen two definites on here this morning, and three more probables.

    The rest?

    (PS. Success also depends on Pelosi and her acolytes making this all about America and her constitution, with precisely zero partisan attacks on the Reps and Democrat grandstanding - I'm not holding my breath on that.)

    When it comes down to it, very little chance of either a bunch of Republican Senators risking a primary, nor of Pelosi not going over the top in her partisanship.
    That's my fear.

    The trouble is, when it comes to impeachment, if not now, when?

    This is as clear a prima facie case for it as one could ever imagine.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    "When in doubt Republican senators tend to follow their leader. And Mr McConnell, not Mr Trump, is their leader."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/13/mitch-mcconnells-cold-fury-means-donald-trump-could-convicted/

    Trump's going down folks. Happy days!

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1349138131233222661
    Agree with Dan on this. In the end, only one GOP member of the House voted for the (milder) resolution requesting Pence to act. Republicans will generally do just enough to give themselves an "ultimately a good guy" ticket, while arguing that anything substantive would be distressingly divisive, time to move on, etc

    It might change a few months down the line if Trump really pushes the "leader in exile" thing and starts demanding primary deselection for everyone except his loyalists. There would come a point when Republicans decide he needs to be squashed - but right now they reckon they can get away "Hey, he'll be gone this month, let's not aggravate things further". It's even arguable that they're right in terms of US political stability, not creating martyrs etc.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    If money from big corporations' lobbyists isn't part of the deep state swamp, then I don't know what is!
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Scott_xP said:

    John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    Should have voted through May's deal...

    Numpty
    I note that Redwood hasn't got any possible solutions to the problem - just that the problem needs to be fixed.
  • OT the Telegraph story on Israel's digital notification system has been updated from "While GPs lick stamps" to "While the NHS franks stamps". Presumably the original sub-editor did not send any Christmas cards.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    eek said:

    I note that Redwood hasn't got any possible solutions to the problem - just that the problem needs to be fixed.

    So he would be open to rejoining the EU then...
  • A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    It is a competition.

    It is a competition against the virus. Do you get T-cells etc from having been infected, or from having been vaccinated.

    This isn't something to dawdle about with. Every day wasted when we have a vaccine is potentially extra avoidable deaths and more economic disruption.
    Are any other metrics worth competing over, or shall we just stick with the good one and pretend the rest didn't/won't happen?

    Thought so, fair enough.
    Other metrics are entirely relevant yes, like genomic sequencing for instance.

    The UK has done half of the planet's genomic sequencing of Covid variants, which enabled us to warn the world about the B117 variant which has caused people to change behaviour and countries to change rules. That probably saved in the UK and globally tens of thousands more deaths by promptly identifying and alerting the world about this new variant that would have just been buried in the sand elsewhere because nobody else was looking for things like that.
    Blimey you have been busy on Wiki today. You almost sound knowledgeable, except that as usual it is an attempt to advance your nationalist English exceptionalism nonsense. Seriously, stop talking shit about stuff you that you really have no knowledge about PLEASE!
  • johntjohnt Posts: 86

    John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    The Tories won an election saying they would sign a deal which was clearly going to deliver this outcome. They then signed the deal. It seems a bit late to be moaning that they are getting what they voted for.

    The more troublesome problem for the Tories is the sell out of the fishermen which is not going down well in the fishing areas. Fishermen have not only been given the catch they believe they were told they would get but they are also seeing stocks going to rot as the mountain of paperwork leaves their main market effectively closed to them.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667

    Currently facing the dilemma of how much water to drink before an exam. Too little and i’ll be dehydrated but too much and i’ll need the toilet pretty rapidly. This is almost as stressful as the exam itself. 😱

    You sound as though yoou had never sat an exam before, Mr Gallowgate. That surely cannot be the case.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally Mango here is a European political scientist, author and former politician who is saying the same thing with regards to vaccines. That the UK is doing better because of the constant pressure on the government to perform is probably correct.

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349100962997272576
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349103017971298311

    That is what democracy does. It holds our government's to account.

    That is what Brexit does. It holds removes the canard of "Europe makes us do it that way" and ensures there is no hiding space for failure.

    If the UK was in the EU's procurement scheme who would have been held to account for its failings? If the UK fails, who is held to account?

    That is the power of democracy.

    No it is just the banal point that most European countries are not very good at vaccinating adults for other things either.


    Also, the MHRA was the EU's de facto vaccine regulator. When we fucked off we took our toys with us and inhibited the EU in so doing.
    Too proud to just go with our regulator's decision? Diddums.

    @Philip_Thompson makes a very good point. Is their an opposition in the EU Parliament laying into the Commission for their piss-poor performance?
    We are in DIRE need of a new political party. All this fire fighting from one CATASTROPHY to another makes us look WEAK I suggest a new PARTY 'The ENGLISH Exceptionalists'. T.E.E for short.

    Thompson's with us RobD's with us Tig86 is with us Tyndall's with us as and we can rely on the support of EX PATS Felix and Sandpit.

    What are we waiting for......LET'S GET IT ON!
    I see you are playing the man not the ball. The point about the lack of accountability is a genuine one.
    When you watch a band of England supporters walking through the streets chanting TWO WORLD WARS AND ONE WORLD CUP it's not unreasonable to draw conclusions. But if the cap doesn't fit take it off!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    rkrkrk said:

    Who do we think the holy 17 Republican Senators might be then?

    I've seen two definites on here this morning, and three more probables.

    The rest?

    (PS. Success also depends on Pelosi and her acolytes making this all about America and her constitution, with precisely zero partisan attacks on the Reps and Democrat grandstanding - I'm not holding my breath on that.)

    I doubt we'll get 17 but will be pleasantly surprised.

    I love the idea that if it fails it is Pelosi's fault.
    Rather than work behind the scenes with Republican senators first, and line them up first before going public, she decided to initiate it herself at a mini press conference and threaten unilateral Democrat action unless the Republicans fell into line. She knows full well that it will start in the House almost automatically due to the Dems being in control and only a simply majority needed, but it's the Senate where it actually happens. And she needs the Republicans on side.

    Of course I give some blame to Pelosi. I also blame numbskull Republican Senators too, but given she knows that she has (yet again) played the ultra-partisan game for which she's well-known rather than act skilfully and constructively to build an alliance in the greater interests of the republic and its constitution.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    It will quite interesting to see what happens at the next election cycle. Conventional wisdom is that the money=political life.

    Congress members in particular, are in continuous fund raising. They even (both parties) have call centres in Washington where the politicians sit and call people to solicit donations.

    Yes, pretty much cold calling. Something they spend more time on than that whole voting on laws thing. They need to raise 5 figures *a day* to stay in the game.... Senators, much much more.

    If this goes forward, there will be a number of politicians running without money, for a change.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    Whilst the development is welcome and it teaches the very important lesson we try to impress our kids before they are 5, namely that actions have consequences, it does rather highlight the complete corruption of the American system.

    Why on earth are all these companies giving money to random congressmen and senators? Is it for the good of their health? Yes it is. They do it because it gives them protection from state level interference, awkward questions and embarrassment. Its a disgrace. Defunding American politics across the board would undoubtedly improve it.
    Talk to the conservative Supreme Court Justices.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    CNN - Coronavirus in the UK: Second deadliest day ever, morgues are filling up, hospitals overwhelmed, tsunami of new cases....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    Good morning, everyone.

    I find the boasting distasteful. I also find the ridiculous comparison with New Zealand to be stupid.

    Yes, agreed. The UK should simply let the stats speak for themselves.

    The virus itself won't go away until virtually the whole-world is inoculated so we should quietly get it done here, and then help others around the world get it done with Ox-AZN and our knowledge of roll-out.

    Let that be the soft-power success.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    If money from big corporations' lobbyists isn't part of the deep state swamp, then I don't know what is!

    I don't like their motivations any more than I like those of Mitch McConnell.
    That they are set to ostracise Trump is nonetheless preferable to the alternative.
  • John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    Redwood believed the Prime Minister when he said there'd be no border down the Irish Sea. Probably so did Boris, given his usual inattention to detail.
    This is the alt facts reality we have with Brexit. It doesn't matter that his own government stuck a border down the Irish Sea. The political dialectic insists there can be no such thing hence the denials from people like Brandon Lewis whose NI Office deal with the border literally every day.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    johnt said:

    The more troublesome problem for the Tories is the sell out of the fishermen which is not going down well in the fishing areas. Fishermen have not only been given the catch they believe they were told they would get but they are also seeing stocks going to rot as the mountain of paperwork leaves their main market effectively closed to them.

    Were it not for Covid, we might have seen piles of rotting fish dumped at Westminster
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    DavidL said:

    Story in the Courier yesterday showed that Scotland had 2.99% of the population inoculated compared with 4.15% in England and 4.85% in NI. Only the perpetual laggards in Wales are doing worse at 2.73%. Gove pointed out that the Scottish government had been given 500k more doses of vaccine than it had used. Jennie Freeman (health minister) denied that but Sturgeon subsequently admitted that this number was "broadly accurate".

    The rate of vaccination in Scotland still needs to significantly more than doubled if the somewhat modest targets are to be met. Last week Scotland managed to inoculate 7,143 a day. They will need to increase that by 11,756 to meet their targets.

    I am not sure why this would be. It may be that the bigger focus on care homes slows things down a bit because it is not as fast as it would be running a conventional clinic. It may be that the Scottish NHS is just a bit more bureaucratic and has been slow to address the urgency (they never really kept up with England on testing either). What is crystal clear is that accelerating the roll out is absolutely critical to Scotland's recovery. Boris is right to be on the warpath with the English NHS as reported in the FT. Sturgeon needs to be doing likewise.

    I am broadly in favour of comparison for rollout for the vaccine - however we should acknowledge the hindrances such as geography in Scotland and I assume high levels of self isolation of staff in Wales.

    I am not in favour of comparative death rates without much more analysis and consideration. Were we better at keeping people alive with severe respiratory diseases before the crisis? If so this would have a big impact on excess deaths. How healthy were the rest of the cohort of susceptible people? This would be so diverse over a range of countries that it would need proper investigation and analysis. This is not to say that mistakes were not made around discharge from hospitals into care home for example.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    He's saying 'Triggered' a lot because he himself has been triggered over the fact this is a wholehearted British success story, and so he wants to draw others onto his own territory instead.

    Scottish Nationalists know that if they were in the EU they'd (still) be waiting for a vaccine, rather than benefiting from the UK Government's foresightedness and superb pharmaceutical industry, hence the attacks.

    He feels vulnerable.
  • City friend of mine asks - is there an update on the fate of the 10,000 Sex Arses stuck at Calais as reported in the Sunday Sport?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083

    City friend of mine asks - is there an update on the fate of the 10,000 Sex Arses stuck at Calais as reported in the Sunday Sport?

    Customs are still sitting on them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574

    Michael R. Sherwin, the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, called the investigation into the attack on the Capitol “unmatched” in scope and said it had already resulted in more than 170 cases involving 100,000 digital tips. He pledged that prosecutors could file charges of seditious conspiracy, murder and other serious felonies in the weeks ahead.

    NYTimes

    Some of the whackos are going to spend the rest of their lives in jail.

    Considering five people are dead (6, but 5 directly) then they could all theoretically be charged with felony murder.
    Can they be charged with the murder of the guy who tasered his own bollocks and had a heart attack...?
    Interesting question, but if it was a death caused by the felony, while they were engaged in the felony, then yes as far as I understand it....
    That would depend on what felony they are charged with.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule#United_States
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    johnt said:

    John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    The Tories won an election saying they would sign a deal which was clearly going to deliver this outcome. They then signed the deal. It seems a bit late to be moaning that they are getting what they voted for.

    The more troublesome problem for the Tories is the sell out of the fishermen which is not going down well in the fishing areas. Fishermen have not only been given the catch they believe they were told they would get but they are also seeing stocks going to rot as the mountain of paperwork leaves their main market effectively closed to them.
    But that is what the deal they voted for created.

    The fact that the Government didn't understand what they were creating is one that the Government needs to own but is trying to avoid (see the Brexit committee being disbanded just as the consequences of the decisions made become clear).
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    If money from big corporations' lobbyists isn't part of the deep state swamp, then I don't know what is!

    I don't like their motivations any more than I like those of Mitch McConnell.
    That they are set to ostracise Trump is nonetheless preferable to the alternative.
    Sure, but it does highlight mainstream Democrats' complicity in the rotten system - one of the reasons for Trump in the first place
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,770
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    Whilst the development is welcome and it teaches the very important lesson we try to impress our kids before they are 5, namely that actions have consequences, it does rather highlight the complete corruption of the American system.

    Why on earth are all these companies giving money to random congressmen and senators? Is it for the good of their health? Yes it is. They do it because it gives them protection from state level interference, awkward questions and embarrassment. Its a disgrace. Defunding American politics across the board would undoubtedly improve it.
    Talk to the conservative Supreme Court Justices.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC
    Yes a terrible decision, one of many in this area. The problem with the American system is that even if Congress passed further laws restricting such expenditure the ruling would strike them down as contrary to the First Amendment.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    It will quite interesting to see what happens at the next election cycle. Conventional wisdom is that the money=political life.

    Congress members in particular, are in continuous fund raising. They even (both parties) have call centres in Washington where the politicians sit and call people to solicit donations.

    Yes, pretty much cold calling. Something they spend more time on than that whole voting on laws thing. They need to raise 5 figures *a day* to stay in the game.... Senators, much much more.

    If this goes forward, there will be a number of politicians running without money, for a change.
    The Reps, with their two year election cycles, are in constant campaign mode. There was a story of a newbie a couple of years ago, being horrified when he arrived in Washington that he was expected to spend three or four hours a day on the phone bank.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Only one fleg. I question their patriotism.
    Keir has snookered himself again, now it turns out that the flag is the emblem of the Conservative Party. If he continues to appear with his he is just endorsing them (again) and if he stops, that proves he was a commie internationalist all along.
    He could change to using the English flag as he has no real hope in Scotland or NI anyway?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336
    OT
    OMG, Jeremy Vine has got a Jab-o-meter. What an arse. Then again perhaps he is being tongue-in-cheek?

  • kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    He's saying 'Triggered' a lot because he himself has been triggered over the fact this is a wholehearted British success story, and so he wants to draw others onto his own territory instead.

    Scottish Nationalists know that if they were in the EU they'd (still) be waiting for a vaccine, rather than benefiting from the UK Government's foresightedness and superb pharmaceutical industry, hence the attacks.

    He feels vulnerable.
    Ooh, I love a bit of amateur psychology in the morning!

    My amateur diagnosis is that having a pretty pishy go at someone in the third person via a third party shows you’re a bit of a fearty.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,770

    DavidL said:

    Story in the Courier yesterday showed that Scotland had 2.99% of the population inoculated compared with 4.15% in England and 4.85% in NI. Only the perpetual laggards in Wales are doing worse at 2.73%. Gove pointed out that the Scottish government had been given 500k more doses of vaccine than it had used. Jennie Freeman (health minister) denied that but Sturgeon subsequently admitted that this number was "broadly accurate".

    The rate of vaccination in Scotland still needs to significantly more than doubled if the somewhat modest targets are to be met. Last week Scotland managed to inoculate 7,143 a day. They will need to increase that by 11,756 to meet their targets.

    I am not sure why this would be. It may be that the bigger focus on care homes slows things down a bit because it is not as fast as it would be running a conventional clinic. It may be that the Scottish NHS is just a bit more bureaucratic and has been slow to address the urgency (they never really kept up with England on testing either). What is crystal clear is that accelerating the roll out is absolutely critical to Scotland's recovery. Boris is right to be on the warpath with the English NHS as reported in the FT. Sturgeon needs to be doing likewise.

    I am broadly in favour of comparison for rollout for the vaccine - however we should acknowledge the hindrances such as geography in Scotland and I assume high levels of self isolation of staff in Wales.

    I am not in favour of comparative death rates without much more analysis and consideration. Were we better at keeping people alive with severe respiratory diseases before the crisis? If so this would have a big impact on excess deaths. How healthy were the rest of the cohort of susceptible people? This would be so diverse over a range of countries that it would need proper investigation and analysis. This is not to say that mistakes were not made around discharge from hospitals into care home for example.
    I think if the discrepancy grows any larger than this it risks becoming a hot political potato for Sturgeon. Whilst the geography point is true this is reflected in higher NHS spending in Scotland meaning that there should be more capacity.
  • johnt said:

    John Boy calling for urgent action from the government about a situation brought about by the government.

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1349242523206737920?s=21

    The Tories won an election saying they would sign a deal which was clearly going to deliver this outcome. They then signed the deal. It seems a bit late to be moaning that they are getting what they voted for.

    The more troublesome problem for the Tories is the sell out of the fishermen which is not going down well in the fishing areas. Fishermen have not only been given the catch they believe they were told they would get but they are also seeing stocks going to rot as the mountain of paperwork leaves their main market effectively closed to them.
    That's the government's problem. They have delivered roughly the Vote Leave plan from 2016. Their problem is that at least some of the problems (foreseeable, foreseen, confidently denied) look like coming in as well.

    In 1990, the Conservative government delivered on its manifesto commitment to introduce the Community Charge. That delivery did not work out to their advantage, even as it was reversed.

    And if Johnson's Brexit turns out to be a temporary aberration, the long term costs will be bigger. Some of the lost business won't return, even if the UK did return to the EU...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    He's saying 'Triggered' a lot because he himself has been triggered over the fact this is a wholehearted British success story, and so he wants to draw others onto his own territory instead.

    Scottish Nationalists know that if they were in the EU they'd (still) be waiting for a vaccine, rather than benefiting from the UK Government's foresightedness and superb pharmaceutical industry, hence the attacks.

    He feels vulnerable.
    Ooh, I love a bit of amateur psychology in the morning!

    My amateur diagnosis is that having a pretty pishy go at someone in the third person via a third party shows you’re a bit of a fearty.
    Triggered..
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    Peak years for EU8 nationals entering the Labour force, measured by NINo issuance (2005-08), corresponded to the period of highest pay growth in the construction sector in the last 20 years. The migration from Romania and Bulgaria (2014-19) has been accompanied by a steady rise in construction sector pay growth. The data don't support the argument that construction sector wages were pushed down by EU migration, at least based on this eyeballing of the numbers. (following up on discussion last night with the benefit of data).
  • IanB2 said:

    CNN - Coronavirus in the UK: Second deadliest day ever, morgues are filling up, hospitals overwhelmed, tsunami of new cases....

    We're Number One!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Reckon we would have seen much more of this by now if it weren't for Covid.
  • kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    He's saying 'Triggered' a lot because he himself has been triggered over the fact this is a wholehearted British success story, and so he wants to draw others onto his own territory instead.

    Scottish Nationalists know that if they were in the EU they'd (still) be waiting for a vaccine, rather than benefiting from the UK Government's foresightedness and superb pharmaceutical industry, hence the attacks.

    He feels vulnerable.
    Ooh, I love a bit of amateur psychology in the morning!

    My amateur diagnosis is that having a pretty pishy go at someone in the third person via a third party shows you’re a bit of a fearty.
    Triggered..
    Are you feeling vulnerable?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited January 2021

    kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    He's saying 'Triggered' a lot because he himself has been triggered over the fact this is a wholehearted British success story, and so he wants to draw others onto his own territory instead.

    Scottish Nationalists know that if they were in the EU they'd (still) be waiting for a vaccine, rather than benefiting from the UK Government's foresightedness and superb pharmaceutical industry, hence the attacks.

    He feels vulnerable.
    Ooh, I love a bit of amateur psychology in the morning!

    My amateur diagnosis is that having a pretty pishy go at someone in the third person via a third party shows you’re a bit of a fearty.
    Triggered..
    When Cameron said "Call me Dave" was he asking to be Triggered?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited January 2021
    Labour controlled Exeter council votes to remove statute of General Buller


    https://twitter.com/_SaveOurStatues/status/1349137277956591621?s=20
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653

    "When in doubt Republican senators tend to follow their leader. And Mr McConnell, not Mr Trump, is their leader."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/13/mitch-mcconnells-cold-fury-means-donald-trump-could-convicted/

    Trump's going down folks. Happy days!

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1349138131233222661
    Agree with Dan on this. In the end, only one GOP member of the House voted for the (milder) resolution requesting Pence to act. Republicans will generally do just enough to give themselves an "ultimately a good guy" ticket, while arguing that anything substantive would be distressingly divisive, time to move on, etc

    It might change a few months down the line if Trump really pushes the "leader in exile" thing and starts demanding primary deselection for everyone except his loyalists. There would come a point when Republicans decide he needs to be squashed - but right now they reckon they can get away "Hey, he'll be gone this month, let's not aggravate things further". It's even arguable that they're right in terms of US political stability, not creating martyrs etc.
    If he is impeached and found guilty he cannot run for president again. That`s the big plus - at least from many perspectives. Looking at it from the perspective of the Dem Party, however, it would be good for them if Trump did run again wouldn`t it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    Scott_xP said:
    I'd put money on his having been driven out there, dropped off for a cycle round, and then driven back. Why he didn't go somewhere nearer like Hyde Park, who can say. Whatever, it's what police across the country are trying to stop people doing, otherwise popular spots will become crowded (as and when it ever stops raining)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Fishing said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Only one fleg. I question their patriotism.
    Keir has snookered himself again, now it turns out that the flag is the emblem of the Conservative Party. If he continues to appear with his he is just endorsing them (again) and if he stops, that proves he was a commie internationalist all along.
    He could change to using the English flag as he has no real hope in Scotland or NI anyway?
    Just - don't tell Emily.....
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912

    kle4 said:

    A good deal lower would be my immediate response.
    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1349265077288001536?s=21

    Except every one of you railing against promoting our being number one would be screaming "useless fuckers!!" if we were in the relegation zone.

    We know you would.

    And heaven help us if Scotland were more successful in getting its population vaccinated than England. That wouldn't be a contest where you'd be chanting "Scotland's number one, Scotland's number one." No sirreeeee.....
    Triggered..
    Lazy.
    He's saying 'Triggered' a lot because he himself has been triggered over the fact this is a wholehearted British success story, and so he wants to draw others onto his own territory instead.

    Scottish Nationalists know that if they were in the EU they'd (still) be waiting for a vaccine, rather than benefiting from the UK Government's foresightedness and superb pharmaceutical industry, hence the attacks.

    He feels vulnerable.
    Ooh, I love a bit of amateur psychology in the morning!

    My amateur diagnosis is that having a pretty pishy go at someone in the third person via a third party shows you’re a bit of a fearty.
    Triggered..
    PB: you come for the unique insights into the evolving political landscape in the UK and beyond. You stay for the passive aggressive feuding, world-class Whataboutery and numerous hissy fits and meltdowns.
  • Reckon we would have seen much more of this by now if it weren't for Covid.
    Trouble is it potentially weakens government accountability, which is doubtless part of its attraction to government.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Scott_xP said:
    Williamson clearly wanted to keep the schools open right to the end. Johnson wanted this too until he didn`t.

    Williamson has been undermined by Johnson but as he is still in post cannot say this. Some mealy-mouthed waffle to follow I predict.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,086
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Incidentally Mango here is a European political scientist, author and former politician who is saying the same thing with regards to vaccines. That the UK is doing better because of the constant pressure on the government to perform is probably correct.

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349100962997272576
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1349103017971298311

    That is what democracy does. It holds our government's to account.

    That is what Brexit does. It holds removes the canard of "Europe makes us do it that way" and ensures there is no hiding space for failure.

    If the UK was in the EU's procurement scheme who would have been held to account for its failings? If the UK fails, who is held to account?

    That is the power of democracy.

    No it is just the banal point that most European countries are not very good at vaccinating adults for other things either.


    Also, the MHRA was the EU's de facto vaccine regulator. When we fucked off we took our toys with us and inhibited the EU in so doing.
    Too proud to just go with our regulator's decision? Diddums.

    @Philip_Thompson makes a very good point. Is their an opposition in the EU Parliament laying into the Commission for their piss-poor performance?
    No; it was a fairly early political decision that our Medicine Regulators wouldn't have anything to do with Europe, against, I believe, the scientific advice. However, partly at least because the Europe-wide organisation was situated in London quite a lot of the staff were British, which meant that when the EMA was moved to Amsterdam new staff, particularly at lower levels, had to be recruited.
    They didn't have to move - and they certainly didn't have move quite so quickly. If Scotland does leave the union, Faslane won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
    I'm wondering whether chaos at the EMA was part of the problem with COVID vaccine approval.

    They lost a lot of staff, and had not recovered.

    Sensible solution would have been to stay in London.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited January 2021
    Stocky said:

    "When in doubt Republican senators tend to follow their leader. And Mr McConnell, not Mr Trump, is their leader."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/13/mitch-mcconnells-cold-fury-means-donald-trump-could-convicted/

    Trump's going down folks. Happy days!

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1349138131233222661
    Agree with Dan on this. In the end, only one GOP member of the House voted for the (milder) resolution requesting Pence to act. Republicans will generally do just enough to give themselves an "ultimately a good guy" ticket, while arguing that anything substantive would be distressingly divisive, time to move on, etc

    It might change a few months down the line if Trump really pushes the "leader in exile" thing and starts demanding primary deselection for everyone except his loyalists. There would come a point when Republicans decide he needs to be squashed - but right now they reckon they can get away "Hey, he'll be gone this month, let's not aggravate things further". It's even arguable that they're right in terms of US political stability, not creating martyrs etc.
    If he is impeached and found guilty he cannot run for president again. That`s the big plus - at least from many perspectives. Looking at it from the perspective of the Dem Party, however, it would be good for them if Trump did run again wouldn`t it?
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Trump has the diehard fans who will turnout to vote for him no matter what that Pence or Cruz or Haley would not have if they were the GOP nominee in 2024 instead of him, however they also have fewer voters who would turn out to vote against them than Trump would, except maybe Cruz.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574

    rkrkrk said:

    Who do we think the holy 17 Republican Senators might be then?

    I've seen two definites on here this morning, and three more probables.

    The rest?

    (PS. Success also depends on Pelosi and her acolytes making this all about America and her constitution, with precisely zero partisan attacks on the Reps and Democrat grandstanding - I'm not holding my breath on that.)

    I doubt we'll get 17 but will be pleasantly surprised.

    I love the idea that if it fails it is Pelosi's fault.
    Rather than work behind the scenes with Republican senators first, and line them up first before going public, she decided to initiate it herself at a mini press conference and threaten unilateral Democrat action unless the Republicans fell into line. She knows full well that it will start in the House almost automatically due to the Dems being in control and only a simply majority needed, but it's the Senate where it actually happens. And she needs the Republicans on side.

    Of course I give some blame to Pelosi. I also blame numbskull Republican Senators too, but given she knows that she has (yet again) played the ultra-partisan game for which she's well-known rather than act skilfully and constructively to build an alliance in the greater interests of the republic and its constitution.
    I simply don't buy that.
    The Republican Senate has enabled Trump for the last four years, and they needed publicly to be put on the spot over this. The signs were many of them would otherwise have sat on their hands.

    Pretending a consensus which doesn't exist is just ridiculous - and in any event, once it reaches the Senate, it is completely out of Pelosi's hands.

  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Story in the Courier yesterday showed that Scotland had 2.99% of the population inoculated compared with 4.15% in England and 4.85% in NI. Only the perpetual laggards in Wales are doing worse at 2.73%. Gove pointed out that the Scottish government had been given 500k more doses of vaccine than it had used. Jennie Freeman (health minister) denied that but Sturgeon subsequently admitted that this number was "broadly accurate".

    The rate of vaccination in Scotland still needs to significantly more than doubled if the somewhat modest targets are to be met. Last week Scotland managed to inoculate 7,143 a day. They will need to increase that by 11,756 to meet their targets.

    I am not sure why this would be. It may be that the bigger focus on care homes slows things down a bit because it is not as fast as it would be running a conventional clinic. It may be that the Scottish NHS is just a bit more bureaucratic and has been slow to address the urgency (they never really kept up with England on testing either). What is crystal clear is that accelerating the roll out is absolutely critical to Scotland's recovery. Boris is right to be on the warpath with the English NHS as reported in the FT. Sturgeon needs to be doing likewise.

    I am broadly in favour of comparison for rollout for the vaccine - however we should acknowledge the hindrances such as geography in Scotland and I assume high levels of self isolation of staff in Wales.

    I am not in favour of comparative death rates without much more analysis and consideration. Were we better at keeping people alive with severe respiratory diseases before the crisis? If so this would have a big impact on excess deaths. How healthy were the rest of the cohort of susceptible people? This would be so diverse over a range of countries that it would need proper investigation and analysis. This is not to say that mistakes were not made around discharge from hospitals into care home for example.
    I think if the discrepancy grows any larger than this it risks becoming a hot political potato for Sturgeon. Whilst the geography point is true this is reflected in higher NHS spending in Scotland meaning that there should be more capacity.
    Hope springs eternal.

    Any view on Gordon Brown’s new caper Our Scottish Future? Using Hugh ‘there will be no second wave, Scotland may not need a vaccine’ Pennington as a mouthpiece to attack the Scottish government over COVID doesn’t seem an optimal move.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Good morning, everyone.

    I find the boasting distasteful. I also find the ridiculous comparison with New Zealand to be stupid.

    Yes, agreed. The UK should simply let the stats speak for themselves.

    The virus itself won't go away until virtually the whole-world is inoculated so we should quietly get it done here, and then help others around the world get it done with Ox-AZN and our knowledge of roll-out.

    Let that be the soft-power success.
    If you're successful you generally don't need to boast about it.

    Also, we're not vaccinating people for the sake of it, but for the end of saving lives (and hopefully inhibiting transmission of the virus). So it's a bit distasteful to boast about vaccinations when so many are dying.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    As one of the replies remarks, this will be a bitter pill for them to swallow.

    https://twitter.com/ArielCohen37/status/1349141280413069312

    Understandable, but being dumped by the pharma lobby will only enhance these idiots' reputations.
    Doubt it - this is part of what seems to be a broad trend to dump these guys.
    It will quite interesting to see what happens at the next election cycle. Conventional wisdom is that the money=political life.

    Congress members in particular, are in continuous fund raising. They even (both parties) have call centres in Washington where the politicians sit and call people to solicit donations.

    Yes, pretty much cold calling. Something they spend more time on than that whole voting on laws thing. They need to raise 5 figures *a day* to stay in the game.... Senators, much much more.

    If this goes forward, there will be a number of politicians running without money, for a change.
    The Reps, with their two year election cycles, are in constant campaign mode. There was a story of a newbie a couple of years ago, being horrified when he arrived in Washington that he was expected to spend three or four hours a day on the phone bank.
    That's the one I was thinking about. Complete with a sneaky pic of the phone bank - a bog standard cube farm call centre...

    Many, many years ago, I was talking with some family members from the US. This was around the time that Ross Perot was starting to get ready to run.

    They though that the real danger to democracy would be if one of the "new" Billionaires (such as Bill Gates) took to politics.

    The old style billionaires were all debt empires - which is why, with few exceptions, the family sinks back into relative obscurity after the founders die. They have some millions - hundred even. But not the billions.

    The new guys have the money. Some of them have cashed out enough (Bill Gates had, at that point and not yet turned to massive philanthropy) that they could buy a presidential campaign *and* pay for the campaigns for a majority of Congress and the Senate for 8 years.

    What my relatives - liberal lawyers - were horrified by, was the possibility that someone could come in, with no connection or "moderation" by the Washington machine, and build their own party on a "we are not corrupt - we don't take the money" line.

    Take the Executive, 2/3rds+ of Congress and the Senate. With the Congress and Senate wholly owned by the President.

    Their *assumption* that the Washington money machine was anything other than a cancer was the interesting part to me....
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    On the header, may we do an alternative version which is "Have Remain's prophecies on what would happen under Brexit actually occurred?"
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,398
    Teesside? Barnard Castle is on the banks of the Tees...
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    MrEd said:

    On the header, may we do an alternative version which is "Have Remain's prophecies on what would happen under Brexit actually occurred?"

    The Plague? No chance
  • HYUFD said:

    Labour controlled Exeter council votes to remove statute of General Buller


    https://twitter.com/_SaveOurStatues/status/1349137277956591621?s=20

    The Wikipedia article is hilariously musty:
    "The Bullers were an old Cornish family, long seated at Morval in Cornwall until their removal to Downes."
    "By his wife he had issue an only child and daughter:"
This discussion has been closed.