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Some extraordinary “storming the Capitol” polling from YouGov US – politicalbetting.com

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  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335

    Anthony Scaramucci has tweeted 'Donald Trump is going to jail.'

    Odds on rather than odds against.
  • kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Linsey Graham saying lethal force should have been used against those storming the Capitol.

    It was...
  • Yokes said:

    Barnesian said:

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Moscow would be a better bet for him. He'd be among friends and no extradition.
    I cannot begin to stress how much that the story of Trump and Russia is not over.
    Ladbrokes offers 33/1 against Trump To be in Russia on 1st Feb 2021
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Scott_xP said:
    Yeah but Alanbrooke knows some forklift truck drivers who haven't noticed any difference.
    Yes, is that a problem for you ?
    You supported Brexit because you thought the political elite needed to be taught a lesson because they took people for granted and didn't care about the microeconomic impact of their policies, and now you have exactly the same attitude.
    of course and as Ill happily point out the microeconomic impact of brexit is diddlysquat compare to CV19 where HMG is basically bankrolling the nation.

    but keep fighting the old battles.

    2016 twinned with 1690
  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    You see, its interesting. How high up the democrats' political agenda is 'going after' Trump, Trumpism and Trumpists? Above the economy? above foreign policy? above immigration? above climate change? Above everything?

    It remains to be seen, too, whether 'going after' is a euphemism. How far will the Biden regime go? Some are highlighting articles talking about 'cleansing' Trumpists. That's not a nice term.
    Other people talked about "draining the swamp". How does that strike you?
  • Scott_xP said:

    Linsey Graham saying lethal force should have been used against those storming the Capitol.

    It was...
    He meant on a much wider scale...he said warning shots should have been fired, then anybody who refused to move should have had lethal force used.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,441
    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    No, he hasn't. He looms. I wish he would go away, but I fear he won't.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The thing I'm looking for forward to in a few years in 2024 primary season is Marc Rubio going for it again and the return of Cromwell.
  • kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    Biden has a chance to heal the centre and put common sense back in to US policy, but he's fluffed it. Pelosi needed to go for a clean break and to give him a chance, He decided on business as usual.
    You've written words but I don't understand them.

    What is Biden supposed to be healing?
    ask Joe, theyre his words

    https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/11/08/biden-urges-healing-and-cooperation-after-defeating-trump-for-u/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANGhth2qn_M689NHtuELAq6bIrd-9s6wujkNI5hV4CfFRIjn8Bm9-JTFrTFq2kuMGtGRlh2PBDD3QLdRlh9pdHlgbMAjWfC5-FyLdL461vERFEvDVwJvJUWFX9OnOcvj-RiVPMgahVtiziCopOwfvP3UDLnw7ri-4OlS_9Euz0pT
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
  • If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
  • kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited January 2021
    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps the refrigerated lorries no longer driving fish to Spain can be used to distribute vaccines around Scotland. This would provide a third option besides the army and supermarkets explored earlier in this thread. ETA does the army have many refrigerated lorries? Maybe supermarkets would be a better bet.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Leon said:

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    Quite so.

    I have basically accepted that Brexit will be WORSE than forecast. And will result in a pretty immediate drop in GDP. Maybe 1-3%. Normally the stuff of crisis. And with ongoing damage.

    But Covid is so much worse, it utterly dwarfs Brexit. Many economies around the world, especially the tuourist economies, are going to plunge by 10% of GDP or more. Including EU economies reliant on a shite EU vaccine roll-out.

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    If Boris and the Tories can successfully manage the vaccine roll out, they could win a handsome second majority in 2024.
    Indeed
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    edited January 2021

    Anthony Scaramucci has tweeted 'Donald Trump is going to jail.'

    Edit - ok others got there first.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    Scott_xP said:
    Yeah but Alanbrooke knows some forklift truck drivers who haven't noticed any difference.
    "IT problems on the French side".

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Would the world be better off if all politicians were banned from social media?

    Let’s ban all the politicians and journalists from Twitter - would make the public discourse so much better almost overnight.
    The world would be an infinitely sweeter, nicer place if Twitter and Facebook were banned altogether, and not reinvented.

    Remember when the internet meant Friends Reunited? Literally and nominally?

    We are a long way from there. Social media will be the downfall of western democracy
    Sadly, I think that's true.
  • The DC police surely must know who Viking man is....everybody knows who he is.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9123277/Capitol-hill-arrests-victims-wanted-suspects.html
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited January 2021
    US marks deadliest day of Covid-19 pandemic as experts mull expanding vaccine distribution

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/07/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

    3,865 in the day.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    IshmaelZ said:

    US marks deadliest day of Covid-19 pandemic as experts mull expanding vaccine distribution

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/07/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

    They are mulling it?

    "Hmm, should we expand vaccine distribution?.... Na"

  • No good for my bet on Trump standing down in order for Pence to pardon him.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
    You mean hes a normal American. We let millions of them come over here why discriminate ?
  • Leon said:

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    Quite so.

    I have basically accepted that Brexit will be WORSE than forecast. And will result in a pretty immediate drop in GDP. Maybe 1-3%. Normally the stuff of crisis. And with ongoing damage.

    But Covid is so much worse, it utterly dwarfs Brexit. Many economies around the world, especially the tuourist economies, are going to plunge by 10% of GDP or more. Including EU economies reliant on a shite EU vaccine roll-out.

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    If Boris and the Tories can successfully manage the vaccine roll out, they could win a handsome second majority in 2024.
    Indeed
    So you think Covid is a problem for the economy?
    What happened to "If there are interruptions markets fix themselves, supply chains change every day and the world moves on."?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,441
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
    One of the biggest challenges the West has over the next 50 years IMHO is moving peacefully to societies where Whites are no longer the majority.

    Professor Eric Kaufman has written convincingly about this in his book Whiteshift.

    Basically, right now many Whites feel threatened by that - and we're in a transition period where we have a large minority of minorities but still a clear white majority - but with little mixing.

    We will get to a majority mixed race population by 2100, with whites at c.10-15% only of the population, and the key there is for that population to successfully inherit the cultural and political traditions of the national story *notwithstanding* its racial heritage.

    This is a very delicate subject but it's one we don't talk enough about.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Where did I say that, or even imply it. TSE mentioned the lady who was shot and I posted a link that shows unfortunately she has a very troubled past since coming out of the military.

    We were talking about Plato heading down a very scary path from sensible poster (who won POTY) to somebody who by the end was flooding the forum with links to crazy conspiracy stuff.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    edited January 2021

    No good for my bet on Trump standing down in order for Pence to pardon him.
    25th Amendment now closes that down. Pence ain't playing that game of pardons if he goes along with the 25th.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Leon said:

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    Quite so.

    I have basically accepted that Brexit will be WORSE than forecast. And will result in a pretty immediate drop in GDP. Maybe 1-3%. Normally the stuff of crisis. And with ongoing damage.

    But Covid is so much worse, it utterly dwarfs Brexit. Many economies around the world, especially the tuourist economies, are going to plunge by 10% of GDP or more. Including EU economies reliant on a shite EU vaccine roll-out.

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    If Boris and the Tories can successfully manage the vaccine roll out, they could win a handsome second majority in 2024.
    Indeed
    So you think Covid is a problem for the economy?
    What happened to "If there are interruptions markets fix themselves, supply chains change every day and the world moves on."?
    Its the difference between a pandcemic and a trade deal. I could explain it but I cant be arsed.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
    I agree with all of that except for climate change.

    Covid has shown us both that we need to take scientific emergencies seriously and that it is possible to tackle them when we put our minds to it. It has also led to a decades of advances in remote communications etc in one year as an alternative to travel for the same thing.

    Covid has made it easier and more credible to tackle climate change.
  • kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    Very sad.

    I remember a couple of years ago I was YouTube looking at some trailers and after I watched one YouTube suggested some Sandy Hook was a hoax videos.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited January 2021
    Gaussian said:

    An update to the reported case graphs, with London as special guest, because that's where we'll first see whether the lockdown is enough to contain the new strain.

    Looking hopeful, but as @Malmesbury points out, the flattening off could turn out to be a mirage due to delayed testing after Christmas, which caused a drop before exaggerated growth.

    I'm not that convinced by the argument that the flattening off is a mirage resulting from comparisons with a delayed post Christmas surge.

    Looking at the 7 day UK average, today is 7th Jan so today's published cases (52k) are replacing those of 31st December (55k). The surge from a post Christmas low on 27th Dec (30k) is very apparent up to 29th Dec (53k) but after that daily increases have been quite small. So I'm inclined to think that 31st Dec is past the point where figures have been artificially inflated by Christmas testing or reporting delays.

    Regardless, today has seen the first fall for a month in what was until then a rapidly rising 7 day case average. It might be a mirage, or a blip, but taken with the modest daily increases in 2021 so far I'm more inclined to the view that it's indicative of at least a general slowing of the increase in case numbers.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
    One of the biggest challenges the West has over the next 50 years IMHO is moving peacefully to societies where Whites are no longer the majority.

    Professor Eric Kaufman has written convincingly about this in his book Whiteshift.

    Basically, right now many Whites feel threatened by that - and we're in a transition period where we have a large minority of minorities but still a clear white majority - but with little mixing.

    We will get to a majority mixed race population by 2100, with whites at c.10-15% only of the population, and the key there is for that population to successfully inherit the cultural and political traditions of the national story *notwithstanding* its racial heritage.

    This is a very delicate subject but it's one we don't talk enough about.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_suicide
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I think she would have followed James Delingpole into bonkerslands.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    For now. That's because the alternatives haven't reached critical mass.

    What if we get a situation where all the liberals are on Twitter and all the conservatives (US language here) on Parler and both have similar reach?

    Would that be better or worse than them being all on the same platform but at least being able to nominally engage with one another?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,441
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
    No, we are not, but America is a society born of revolution, and with a populace armed by its Constitution. And with a poisonous leftwing which seems intent on deliberately riling the worst of the lunatic right, by tearing down precious American symbols like Lincoln statues. And all of it is racialised, to boot.

    If you want to turn a culture war into an actual civil war, that is the pretty much perfect recipe.

    Somebody yesterday said the Storming of the Capitol was, potentially, Munich 1923, which led to Berlin 1933. It seemed prescient.


  • Linsey Graham saying lethal force should have been used against those storming the Capitol.

    God help me, but it's toooooooo damn bad one of the mob did NOT give Little Lindsay the good stomping he richly deserves.

    Bet Cindy McCain feels the same way.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335
    edited January 2021
    Just something to understand right wing militias. There are plenty of them with very different motivations but the ones who are most likely to carry out actual acts of terror tend to be strongly based on an underlying race ideology.

    Just going to leave that one with you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    You see, its interesting. How high up the democrats' political agenda is 'going after' Trump, Trumpism and Trumpists? Above the economy? above foreign policy? above immigration? above climate change? Above everything?

    It remains to be seen, too, whether 'going after' is a euphemism. How far will the Biden regime go? Some are highlighting articles talking about 'cleansing' Trumpists. That's not a nice term.
    If the Dems have any sense, they'll let the Republicans have a bloodbath by themselves.

    "Never interrupt your opponent when they're making a mistake."
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
    Climate change increases the chances of epidemics and pandemics, on top of its more direct effects.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,092
    edited January 2021

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    Very sad.

    I remember a couple of years ago I was YouTube looking at some trailers and after I watched one YouTube suggested some Sandy Hook was a hoax videos.
    YouTube algorithm is totally broken. You watch a single video, without subing, liking, or commmenting, and it still thinks you loved it so much you must want loads more of it.

    I watched a rerun of Starmer give his address and am now getting recommended loads of Gordon Brittas videos....
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    No, he hasn't. He looms. I wish he would go away, but I fear he won't.
    He may well just return online to post some unrelated nonsense and videos first, in a few days, when it won't be as obviously humiliating if he doesn't reference what he said in his preceding tweets about the Struggle.
  • If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
    As a private citizen? Sure. But as President of the United States?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
    I agree with all of that except for climate change.

    Covid has shown us both that we need to take scientific emergencies seriously and that it is possible to tackle them when we put our minds to it. It has also led to a decades of advances in remote communications etc in one year as an alternative to travel for the same thing.

    Covid has made it easier and more credible to tackle climate change.
    I don't think climate change is really a political issue in the UK or Europe in the way it still is in the USA.

    Of course that might change if the Vegan loons get the upper hand.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    Carnyx said:

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    You will want to ignore it. But it is a cogent analysis backed up by actual quotations from firms.
    Oh FFS the BBC were running a headline on European firms refusing to supply the UK post Brexit. It was bike shop in Holland. The FT are still sulking and feeding their jusquaboutiste readership some click bait.

    If there are interruptions markets fix themselves, supply chains change every day and the world moves on.
    Stop complaining, you won.
  • kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Where did I say that, or even imply it. TSE mentioned the lady who was shot and I posted a link that shows unfortunately she has a very troubled past since coming out of the military.

    We were talking about Plato heading down a very scary path from sensible poster (who won POTY) to somebody who by the end was flooding the forum with links to crazy conspiracy stuff.
    The former air force officer died because she was shot but surely the other three deaths from other causes is suspiciously high in a crowd of just a couple of hundred people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    He seems to have missed that this week is apparently going twice as fast as last week.

    Nothing ever *starts* at rate x - it always builds up.
    Yes, it was very oddly worded. Being nowhere near 2m now isn't the issue, it's whether the increase is on track to reach that soon enough that the overal target is reached.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
  • Leon said:

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    Quite so.

    I have basically accepted that Brexit will be WORSE than forecast. And will result in a pretty immediate drop in GDP. Maybe 1-3%. Normally the stuff of crisis. And with ongoing damage.

    But Covid is so much worse, it utterly dwarfs Brexit. Many economies around the world, especially the tuourist economies, are going to plunge by 10% of GDP or more. Including EU economies reliant on a shite EU vaccine roll-out.

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    If Boris and the Tories can successfully manage the vaccine roll out, they could win a handsome second majority in 2024.
    Indeed
    So you think Covid is a problem for the economy?
    What happened to "If there are interruptions markets fix themselves, supply chains change every day and the world moves on."?
    Its the difference between a pandcemic and a trade deal. I could explain it but I cant be arsed.
    Ok. One is something you wanted, therefore we'll adapt, and the other is something you didn't (well, I assume, you can never be sure) so we can't.
    There, you're right, you didn't need to explain.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    edited January 2021
    IanB2 said:

    In other news:

    World's unluckiest burglars' arrested after calling police by accident: Staffordshire police arrest two men on suspicion of burglary after one sits on phone and dials 999


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/07/suspected-burglars-arrested-after-calling-police-by-accident

    Did they subsequently stand on some micro machines and fall down the stairs, before being hit on the head by a paint can on a rope released by a small boy?
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
    I agree with all of that except for climate change.

    Covid has shown us both that we need to take scientific emergencies seriously and that it is possible to tackle them when we put our minds to it. It has also led to a decades of advances in remote communications etc in one year as an alternative to travel for the same thing.

    Covid has made it easier and more credible to tackle climate change.
    I don't think climate change is really a political issue in the UK or Europe in the way it still is in the USA.

    Of course that might change if the Vegan loons get the upper hand.
    Indeed, I don't think its ever been that much of a political issue in the UK despite some extremists wanting to make it one. Thatcher, Cameron and Boris have all made a very big point about dealing with humanity changing the climate, ozone layer etc

    Vegans are just loons. Probably don't get enough protein, addles their brain, they should try a hamburger for their mental health.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    A newly elected member of the West Virginia House of Delegates was seen in a video as part of the group of pro-Trump rioters who forced their way into the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
    Obviously, though one might argue a simple arrest might have been more appropriate.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    You see, its interesting. How high up the democrats' political agenda is 'going after' Trump, Trumpism and Trumpists? Above the economy? above foreign policy? above immigration? above climate change? Above everything?

    It remains to be seen, too, whether 'going after' is a euphemism. How far will the Biden regime go? Some are highlighting articles talking about 'cleansing' Trumpists. That's not a nice term.
    Trumpists ain't good people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Perhaps that sort of question should be reserved to where someone actually said something that could be interpreted that way, rather than simply quoting of an article's contents.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
    As a private citizen? Sure. But as President of the United States?
    With one day left. To "play golf". During COVID.

    Talk to Biden, talk to the ambassador, square it as best you can but, sure, deny him entry.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
    One of the biggest challenges the West has over the next 50 years IMHO is moving peacefully to societies where Whites are no longer the majority.

    Professor Eric Kaufman has written convincingly about this in his book Whiteshift.

    Basically, right now many Whites feel threatened by that - and we're in a transition period where we have a large minority of minorities but still a clear white majority - but with little mixing.

    We will get to a majority mixed race population by 2100, with whites at c.10-15% only of the population, and the key there is for that population to successfully inherit the cultural and political traditions of the national story *notwithstanding* its racial heritage.

    This is a very delicate subject but it's one we don't talk enough about.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_suicide
    The key is to decouple political and cultural identity from race, so national unity can be maintained throughout any change in racial composition, together with clear racial equality so all feel secure and reassured at all times.

    Want to know why I get so frustrated by Woke?

    It's because I fear some fanatics are trying to reintroduce aspects of racialisation into our politics and culture when we should be trying to eliminate it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    Very sad.

    I remember a couple of years ago I was YouTube looking at some trailers and after I watched one YouTube suggested some Sandy Hook was a hoax videos.
    As a general rule, the algorithms on social media follow the Rod Crosby Law. Within a few links they are suggesting a little bit of Nazism was no bad thing.

    I even get Nazis suggested on TikTok now...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Where did I say that, or even imply it. TSE mentioned the lady who was shot and I posted a link that shows unfortunately she has a very troubled past since coming out of the military.

    We were talking about Plato heading down a very scary path from sensible poster (who won POTY) to somebody who by the end was flooding the forum with links to crazy conspiracy stuff.
    The former air force officer died because she was shot but surely the other three deaths from other causes is suspiciously high in a crowd of just a couple of hundred people.
    One of them died falling from a balcony they were trying to climb over. With behaviour like that, it’s not a long odds game.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    IanB2 said:

    In other news:

    World's unluckiest burglars' arrested after calling police by accident: Staffordshire police arrest two men on suspicion of burglary after one sits on phone and dials 999


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/07/suspected-burglars-arrested-after-calling-police-by-accident

    Did they subsequently stand on some micro machines and fall down the stairs, before being hit on the head by a paint can on a rope released by a small boy?
    There is a funny discussion in the TV series Ted Lasso about why 999, instead of 911, is a silly idea, based around the idea that 999, being a single digit repeated, is easier to dial by accident.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Leon said:

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    No, he hasn't. He looms. I wish he would go away, but I fear he won't.
    My hope is that he will be too distracted by legal concerns, and shellshocked by his loss of office (I think he genuinely thought until yesterday that he would remain President) and the contempt many people who had to pretend to respect him will now display, that he won't be able to effectively marshall the many many people who do indeed still adore him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
    I agree with all of that except for climate change.

    Covid has shown us both that we need to take scientific emergencies seriously and that it is possible to tackle them when we put our minds to it. It has also led to a decades of advances in remote communications etc in one year as an alternative to travel for the same thing.

    Covid has made it easier and more credible to tackle climate change.
    I don't think climate change is really a political issue in the UK or Europe in the way it still is in the USA.

    Of course that might change if the Vegan loons get the upper hand.
    Indeed, I don't think its ever been that much of a political issue in the UK despite some extremists wanting to make it one. Thatcher, Cameron and Boris have all made a very big point about dealing with humanity changing the climate, ozone layer etc

    Vegans are just loons. Probably don't get enough protein, addles their brain, they should try a hamburger for their mental health.
    Thatcher should be a hero of the environmental lobby.

    She was the first major global leader to take the issue seriously in the late 80s.

    Charles Moore's autobiography of her on this subject is utterly fascinating.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    TimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    In other news:

    World's unluckiest burglars' arrested after calling police by accident: Staffordshire police arrest two men on suspicion of burglary after one sits on phone and dials 999


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/07/suspected-burglars-arrested-after-calling-police-by-accident

    Did they subsequently stand on some micro machines and fall down the stairs, before being hit on the head by a paint can on a rope released by a small boy?
    There is a funny discussion in the TV series Ted Lasso about why 999, instead of 911, is a silly idea, based around the idea that 999, being a single digit repeated, is easier to dial by accident.
    That...actually does make some sense.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_xP said:
    Channel Island fishermen are struggling with French bureaucracy (they're entitled to land catches directly in France given 3 hours notice) and expect the problems to be ironed out. In any case with market demand collapsed because of the French lockdown they don't reckon they're losing much business.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
    Obviously, though one might argue a simple arrest might have been more appropriate.
    You saw the footage, right?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
    :lol:
  • If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
    As a private citizen? Sure. But as President of the United States?
    Yes and hell Yes. He's the "Shithole President" he abdicated any claim to honor or respect based on being POTUS yesterday.

    IF you want to preserve the Special Relationship, do NOT let him in. Instead, keep him out.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    Not really.

    Covid and Brexit will kill different parts of the economy in different ways so it will always be possible to attribute
    Nah, sorry. Covid is a global trauma on a par with a World War. That's how bad it is is (already) and it could get worse. Brexit is a painful but comparatively trivial rejigging of our trading arrangements. And it may, over time (and I think it will) allow us more freedom which might make us richer, or at least more contented.

    BUT ANYHOW IT IS IRRELEVANT. No one gives a TINY fuck any more. So we can't get Brie. So some bankers are poorer. So London is dented. MILLIONS HAVE DIED.

    I know you are obsessed with Brexit, but emotionally speaking it now, already, history. The virus is is so dreadful and so global - tangentially causing near civil war in America - everything else shrinks into the shadows.

    Of course some nutters will continue to obsess. I accept this includes you

    I predict another victim will be climate change. As an item on the vital agenda. It will remain very important but it will no longer feel like an emergency. Covid has shown us what a REAL emergency looks like
    I agree with all of that except for climate change.

    Covid has shown us both that we need to take scientific emergencies seriously and that it is possible to tackle them when we put our minds to it. It has also led to a decades of advances in remote communications etc in one year as an alternative to travel for the same thing.

    Covid has made it easier and more credible to tackle climate change.
    I don't think climate change is really a political issue in the UK or Europe in the way it still is in the USA.

    Of course that might change if the Vegan loons get the upper hand.
    Indeed, I don't think its ever been that much of a political issue in the UK despite some extremists wanting to make it one. Thatcher, Cameron and Boris have all made a very big point about dealing with humanity changing the climate, ozone layer etc

    Vegans are just loons. Probably don't get enough protein, addles their brain, they should try a hamburger for their mental health.
    Thatcher should be a hero of the environmental lobby.

    She was the first major global leader to take the issue seriously in the late 80s.

    Charles Moore's autobiography of her on this subject is utterly fascinating.
    Crispin Tickell was a key man there.
  • IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Where did I say that, or even imply it. TSE mentioned the lady who was shot and I posted a link that shows unfortunately she has a very troubled past since coming out of the military.

    We were talking about Plato heading down a very scary path from sensible poster (who won POTY) to somebody who by the end was flooding the forum with links to crazy conspiracy stuff.
    The former air force officer died because she was shot but surely the other three deaths from other causes is suspiciously high in a crowd of just a couple of hundred people.
    One of them died falling from a balcony they were trying to climb over. With behaviour like that, it’s not a long odds game.
    Oh gravity, thou art a heartless bitch.
  • Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    Very sad.

    I remember a couple of years ago I was YouTube looking at some trailers and after I watched one YouTube suggested some Sandy Hook was a hoax videos.
    As a general rule, the algorithms on social media follow the Rod Crosby Law. Within a few links they are suggesting a little bit of Nazism was no bad thing.

    I even get Nazis suggested on TikTok now...
    Aren't you a bit old to be on TikTok?
  • Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
    Obviously, though one might argue a simple arrest might have been more appropriate.
    Probably not. When you're defending democracy against an insurrection, and you're surrounded and outnumbered, stopping to ensure the safety of the attacker might mean death for you and the institutions you're trying to defend.

    This isn't five cops arresting a lone person in the street, it's stopping a mob swarming down corridors at you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    No good for my bet on Trump standing down in order for Pence to pardon him.
    I do wonder if he was presented with two options

    1) Stand down in exchange for Trump pardoning him

    2) Stay in office and seek to pardon himself

    Whether he would go for 2 because even if it is at the least unclear whether he can do it, he would not be able to take the step of voluntarily relinquishing the top job for someone else.
  • kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Probably projecting (though just a bit) but I got the impression she was slightly disappointed that Trump had won against her prediction, and she couldn't get right into the 'he was robbed by the deep state' stuff. I think one could probably construct a handy thesis that a lot of these people have been preparing for the enraged Dolchstoßlegende psychosis for 5+ years, not 2 months.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Where did I say that, or even imply it. TSE mentioned the lady who was shot and I posted a link that shows unfortunately she has a very troubled past since coming out of the military.

    We were talking about Plato heading down a very scary path from sensible poster (who won POTY) to somebody who by the end was flooding the forum with links to crazy conspiracy stuff.
    The former air force officer died because she was shot but surely the other three deaths from other causes is suspiciously high in a crowd of just a couple of hundred people.
    I was thinking hyper excited, fat, crystal methers having heart attacks. Possibly too much stereotyping.
  • Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    For now. That's because the alternatives haven't reached critical mass.

    What if we get a situation where all the liberals are on Twitter and all the conservatives (US language here) on Parler and both have similar reach?

    Would that be better or worse than them being all on the same platform but at least being able to nominally engage with one another?
    Which side would have the cat videos?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,441
    rcs1000 said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I think she would have followed James Delingpole into bonkerslands.
    I know James. I believe he still makes a very decent living (and is a likeable guy, believe it or not).

    The trouble is, once you are alienated from the major social media platforms, or even expelled, the economic pressure is then to become even MORE extreme, to make every single column the ultimate clickbait, so you generate traffic for your newspaper/online media/podcast, who then make you higher profile,so you get even more clicks, and so on

    The internet literally incentivises insane and extreme opinions. This is true of Left or Right. That is why it is so corrosive of western liberal democracy as we know it.

    Trump was made by Twitter
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TimT said:

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
    Obviously, though one might argue a simple arrest might have been more appropriate.
    You saw the footage, right?
    yes, Im also reading the posts where the police are lifting all involved based on film evidence from yesterday and the mobbists are bricking it that they need a lawyer. Seems a much better way to me than just shooting at randon.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,893


    I agree with all of that except for climate change.

    Covid has shown us both that we need to take scientific emergencies seriously and that it is possible to tackle them when we put our minds to it. It has also led to a decades of advances in remote communications etc in one year as an alternative to travel for the same thing.

    Covid has made it easier and more credible to tackle climate change.

    I've come out of this ever more convinced there's little or nothing human ingenuity cannot resolve if it puts its mind to it. We have created a number of vaccines in barely a year and while it's too late for far too many, the hope for the majority for the future is there.

    Applying innovation and ingenuity (and supporting it wherever possible) offers far and away the best prospect of mitigating the impacts of climate change. It's preferable to eco-authoritarianism in so many ways.

    Indeed, I'd go further and say it's quite likely that in resolving the issues of climate change, technology and innovation will come up with ways not only of promoting sustainability but improving the lives of millions if not billions.


  • If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
    You mean hes a normal American. We let millions of them come over here why discriminate ?
    GO FUCK YOURSELF, YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE.

    And thanks for showing us your true stripes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?

    I fear she would have flown over to join the stop the steal protest....
    Yup, I remember some of the tweets she posted that led to her ban from PB were similar to the ones posted by Ashli Babbit.
    Airforce vet Trump rioter, 35, who was shot dead by cops while storming Capitol had charges of reckless endangerment, malicious destruction of property and tampering with a car on her rap sheet

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9122477/Trump-rioter-shot-dead-storming-Capitol-rap-sheet.html
    so youre saying she deserved to be shot ?
    Well she was climbing through a window into the Congress chamber at the time. I suspect the copper shot her for that, rather than Google her history.
    Obviously, though one might argue a simple arrest might have been more appropriate.
    As Mary_Batty lays out, it is probably much easier to suggest that not in the moment. That doesn't make every decision made in the moment correct, but a simple arrest really may not have been viable, like when people counter killing terrorists with arresting them and putting them on trial - there might still be issues with the former approach, but the latter might simply have been impossible.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    While I condemn utterly the storming of the capitol in no uncertain terms I can't help thinking a lot here are wiffling when they huff and puff about it interrupting legal things.

    All revolutions by their nature are illegal. Even the one that toppled Ceacescau and I think most would be applauding that one.

    We condemn the capitol because we see it as democracy under threat ad that is currently how we govern ourselves therefore we see it as good. We applaud Ceacescu because it was a dictatorship and we see it as bad because thats not how we do things.

    I do wonder though whether we are at the nether end of the representative democratic age, societies seem to polarised now and whoever is elected about half the country feels unrepresented. Look at america with republicans and democrats, brexit with remainers and leavers, the Johnson government where people claiming 53% of people voted against it. Macron and LePen though being french they seem to be more of the mind they don't really care who gets voted in as long as they don't try and implement any of the manifesto they got voted in for.

    Is that to say democracy is dead? No but I think representative democracy is perhaps on life support in many places
  • If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Why would any sane UK government permit Trumpsky to enter the country? He incited a mob to attack democracy, with the result that four people are dead. Thus ample grounds to deny him entry as a dangerous, racist, violent, anti-democratic (small d) extremist.
    As a private citizen? Sure. But as President of the United States?
    Yes and hell Yes. He's the "Shithole President" he abdicated any claim to honor or respect based on being POTUS yesterday.

    IF you want to preserve the Special Relationship, do NOT let him in. Instead, keep him out.
    I would agree with this, but wouldn't trust Boris Johnson to enact it.
  • Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    For now. That's because the alternatives haven't reached critical mass.

    What if we get a situation where all the liberals are on Twitter and all the conservatives (US language here) on Parler and both have similar reach?

    Would that be better or worse than them being all on the same platform but at least being able to nominally engage with one another?
    Which side would have the cat videos?
    liberals -> cats
    conservatives -> dogs
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,127

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
    One of the biggest challenges the West has over the next 50 years IMHO is moving peacefully to societies where Whites are no longer the majority.

    Professor Eric Kaufman has written convincingly about this in his book Whiteshift.

    Basically, right now many Whites feel threatened by that - and we're in a transition period where we have a large minority of minorities but still a clear white majority - but with little mixing.

    We will get to a majority mixed race population by 2100, with whites at c.10-15% only of the population, and the key there is for that population to successfully inherit the cultural and political traditions of the national story *notwithstanding* its racial heritage.

    This is a very delicate subject but it's one we don't talk enough about.
    Even if most of the West eventually moves to a situation where whites are a minority we are unlikely to get to a situation where they represent only 10-15% of the population.

    For example even by 2045 non Hispanic whites are still forecast to constitute 49.7% of the US population and 70% of the UK population.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2018/03/14/the-us-will-become-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/

    https://workpermit.com/news/30-uk-population-will-be-ethnic-minority-2050-20140513

    It is though possible that by 2100 we could end up with a situation where the only white majority populations are in Russia and Eastern Europe which have barely any immigration from Asia, Africa and Latin America in comparison to western Europe, the US and Canada and Australia and New Zealand.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
    One of the biggest challenges the West has over the next 50 years IMHO is moving peacefully to societies where Whites are no longer the majority.

    Professor Eric Kaufman has written convincingly about this in his book Whiteshift.

    Basically, right now many Whites feel threatened by that - and we're in a transition period where we have a large minority of minorities but still a clear white majority - but with little mixing.

    We will get to a majority mixed race population by 2100, with whites at c.10-15% only of the population, and the key there is for that population to successfully inherit the cultural and political traditions of the national story *notwithstanding* its racial heritage.

    This is a very delicate subject but it's one we don't talk enough about.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_suicide
    The key is to decouple political and cultural identity from race, so national unity can be maintained throughout any change in racial composition, together with clear racial equality so all feel secure and reassured at all times.

    Want to know why I get so frustrated by Woke?

    It's because I fear some fanatics are trying to reintroduce aspects of racialisation into our politics and culture when we should be trying to eliminate it.
    I agree in principle. But in practice, it would help to eliminate "racialisation" in our politics and culture if we could firstly eliminate, or at least reduce further, economic, health, and many other inequalities between people of different ethnic backgrounds that persist in Western Europe and the USA (and elsewhere as well, of course). If you remove the cause of grievance, you remove the grievance.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    In other news:

    World's unluckiest burglars' arrested after calling police by accident: Staffordshire police arrest two men on suspicion of burglary after one sits on phone and dials 999


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/07/suspected-burglars-arrested-after-calling-police-by-accident

    Did they subsequently stand on some micro machines and fall down the stairs, before being hit on the head by a paint can on a rope released by a small boy?
    There is a funny discussion in the TV series Ted Lasso about why 999, instead of 911, is a silly idea, based around the idea that 999, being a single digit repeated, is easier to dial by accident.
    That...actually does make some sense.
    999 always seemed dumb back in the day when you had to stick your finger in a dial and turn it to the maximum then watch it rotate slowly back to the starting position, then repeat three times. While your heart is packing up. Given what old phones were like, 911, or even 111, would be better.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,165
    edited January 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    While I condemn utterly the storming of the capitol in no uncertain terms I can't help thinking a lot here are wiffling when they huff and puff about it interrupting legal things.

    All revolutions by their nature are illegal. Even the one that toppled Ceacescau and I think most would be applauding that one.

    We condemn the capitol because we see it as democracy under threat ad that is currently how we govern ourselves therefore we see it as good. We applaud Ceacescu because it was a dictatorship and we see it as bad because thats not how we do things.

    I do wonder though whether we are at the nether end of the representative democratic age, societies seem to polarised now and whoever is elected about half the country feels unrepresented. Look at america with republicans and democrats, brexit with remainers and leavers, the Johnson government where people claiming 53% of people voted against it. Macron and LePen though being french they seem to be more of the mind they don't really care who gets voted in as long as they don't try and implement any of the manifesto they got voted in for.

    Is that to say democracy is dead? No but I think representative democracy is perhaps on life support in many places

    Democracy needs renewal in a participatory direction, probably a radically participatory one. It's worth defending and preserving, but its flaws at the moment, in countries like the US and Britain, aren't just social and economic, but representational too.
This discussion has been closed.