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Some extraordinary “storming the Capitol” polling from YouGov US – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    RobD said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    struck by brigadier's supermarket chain analogy as it is my area. mmm. so a super will have 40,000 SKU (lines) and the vaccine effort has er two. If gov did want efficient distribution they would have used the big 6 not the bloody army.

    How many SKUs do you think Army logistics has?
    off the top of my head i would guess about 10,000. your point being?
    my point (in case you were wondering) is that if you want an infrastructure that can get XXX stuff to the UK general pop under YYY conditions (temp, time, distance) would you use the army or the supers. one set do it for a living 24/7 365 the other not so much
    You seemed to be impugning in your comment the Army's ability to do logistics and implying that the Supermarkets would be better. Or did I get you wrong?
    military logisticians are some of the best in the world. but they aren't good at what they are being asked to do. get lots of stuff to everyone really quickly. not military. that is what supers do. the whole brigadier in a uniform schtick is bullshit straight from the nudge unit.
    Aren't the supermarkets busy stocking, you know, supermarkets? Army logistics is there for situations exactly like these.
    they are (and thank god they are or you would be starving). and army logistics is to get fighty killy stuff to the front line. the other bits are incidental. feeding an army vs feeding a nation. vaccinate a nation vs vaccinate an army.
    OK, what percentage of Army logistics do you think are fighty killy stuff vs food, water, fuel, living accommodations and medicine? Your assumptions appear to be a little off to me.
    There is a story which I have heard, but not been able to confirm, that during WWII the British, worried by German bombing of some warehouses in London bought all the tea that year to supply the troops. By "all the tea" I mean the entire world supply.
    There is a school of thought that the British military policy in the Far East was essentially, "whatever", until the Japanese threatened to take control of the world tea supply. Then the knuckledusters came out....
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    'Explores how the penny is dropping' - clearly some really professional dispassionate journalism rhey've done there.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    ydoethur said:

    stjohn said:

    Text from a friend.

    It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'état region of France otherwise it's sparkling white terrorism.

    It's only a coup if it's successful. This wasn't. More of a coop. Where the chickens are coming home to roost.
    No it isn’t. You can have a failed or attempted coup - Turkey springs to mind. Or Spain 1981 for that matter.
    e.g. Mad Mike Hoare and the Seychelles

    Also the wonderful Dogs of War story by Frederick Forsyth that he didn't have to invent ... https://www.nytimes.com/1978/04/18/archives/writer-of-novel-on-africa-coup-said-to-have-attempted-real-one.html
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    Floater said:

    "Hello, is that Rod Crosby? I hear you're good with numbers, we have a 'they've got a number of votes more than us' problem here."

    https://twitter.com/kreuzberged/status/1347238751697854464?s=20

    What the actual fuck?



    Rod ‘Roddy’ Crosby still has his fans on PB.

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    This polling shows Trumpism has got hold of the GOP for at least a decade, Republican voters narrowly support the actions last night and overwhelmingly think Trump should not be impeached in total contrast to the rest of the US electorate.

    Also this is only the first presidential election defeat post Trump for the GOP, it took Labour 4 general election defeats to elect a centrist leadership candidate post Blair.

    Even if Trump does not run again in 2024 then another Trumpite like Cruz or Hawley or his son will run again and VP Pence by condemning the protestors and allowing Biden's confirmation last night will probably end up being the moderate candidate for the GOP nomination next time so populist and rightwing has the GOP core base now become.

    Many voters who would comfortably have defined themselves as Republican in the Reagan and Bush era now clearly define themselves as Independents too, so the GOP base left is more conservative and more populist

    Registered Voters are opposed 71-21 suggesting the Republican pro-Trump base is diminishing in the light of yesterday's events.

    The question, if the Trump base still controls the GOP in 2024, is how big they will lose to the Democrats - a 60-40 defeat might well lead to the end of the Trump base in its current form.

    Another possibility is the GOP will schism as it did before 1912 with the Trump faction emulating Theodore Roosevelt - that ended well for the Democrats but the Republicans won again eight years later and were in for twelve years after.
    Correct. Trumpism will wither on the vine with Trumpton himself. After yesterday, the coalition is done. Will become like the Palinistas, an irrelevance. I expect Romney and the Lincoln Project to slowly but surely take control of the party.
    I'm not sure I agree there. The underlying social and economic reasons, and ethnic and cultural conflicts made the most of to redirect attention away from them, inherent in rightwing radical populism, won't go away so easily as that.
    We’ll see. I don’t expect the underlying conflicts to disappear. But I do expect Trump and Trumpism to deflate very rapidly. As I have said on here repeatedly (before yesterday) I think the idea that he will continue to be a force is overblown. And I think he’s done after yesterday: he is a spearhead and a hero for a hardcore following, yes, but his wider coalition is broken.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    isam said:

    Daily Mail sticking the boot into the Premier League, & the govt

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1347249189852475393?s=21

    What twats. People need entertainment, and some alternative to 24 hour covid and bloody clap for heroes bollocks.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore

    Let them eat Sovereignty...

    https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/1347263660155154436
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    ydoethur said:

    stjohn said:

    Text from a friend.

    It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'état region of France otherwise it's sparkling white terrorism.

    It's only a coup if it's successful. This wasn't. More of a coop. Where the chickens are coming home to roost.
    No it isn’t. You can have a failed or attempted coup - Turkey springs to mind. Or Spain 1981 for that matter.
    But failed coup and attempted coup = not a coup. And Turkey springs? They must be related to chickens.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    RobD said:

    Wearing your work ID to a riot? Jeez they are cretins.
    In a way its very lucky they were unorganised cretins...organized, trained and ruthless and we could have been looking at Die Hard does Government Coup.
    Worse than that. There is (I assume?) significant overlap between the rioters yesterday, and Second Amendment zealots. And one of their favourite interpretations of the Second Amendment is that it exists precisely in case citizens need to protect themselves from their own government. Which presumably includes if the establishment has "stolen an election" from them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited January 2021
    I guess we have to be thankful that the sort of people who believe the election was stolen and all that QAnon rubbish and think covid is a hoax aren't the sharpest tools in the box.

    What Biden / America needs to be concerned about more subtle methods that are used / can be used to weaponize the people and results in far better trained and organized outfits
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:

    That's a very stupid tweet by d'ancona for a number of reasons.
    The media's myopic focus on a single number is returning?
    Tbf, at least this number actually means something, testing numbers meant and still mean nothing because there's no follow up with isolation measures.
    Up to a point, it does matter who is being vaccinated.
    If you do 4-5m per week it probably doesn't. The sheer numbers being immunised will have a massive downwards effect on the R very quickly.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    RobD said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    struck by brigadier's supermarket chain analogy as it is my area. mmm. so a super will have 40,000 SKU (lines) and the vaccine effort has er two. If gov did want efficient distribution they would have used the big 6 not the bloody army.

    How many SKUs do you think Army logistics has?
    off the top of my head i would guess about 10,000. your point being?
    my point (in case you were wondering) is that if you want an infrastructure that can get XXX stuff to the UK general pop under YYY conditions (temp, time, distance) would you use the army or the supers. one set do it for a living 24/7 365 the other not so much
    You seemed to be impugning in your comment the Army's ability to do logistics and implying that the Supermarkets would be better. Or did I get you wrong?
    military logisticians are some of the best in the world. but they aren't good at what they are being asked to do. get lots of stuff to everyone really quickly. not military. that is what supers do. the whole brigadier in a uniform schtick is bullshit straight from the nudge unit.
    Aren't the supermarkets busy stocking, you know, supermarkets? Army logistics is there for situations exactly like these.
    they are (and thank god they are or you would be starving). and army logistics is to get fighty killy stuff to the front line. the other bits are incidental. feeding an army vs feeding a nation. vaccinate a nation vs vaccinate an army.
    OK, what percentage of Army logistics do you think are fighty killy stuff vs food, water, fuel, living accommodations and medicine? Your assumptions appear to be a little off to me.
    There is a story which I have heard, but not been able to confirm, that during WWII the British, worried by German bombing of some warehouses in London bought all the tea that year to supply the troops. By "all the tea" I mean the entire world supply.
    And another one that Churchill sent a destroyer to escort the Seville orange ship in winter 1940-1on the basis that you can't fight a war without marmalade, and the Spanish took this as proof that the English really use the oranges to make some kind of secret weapon.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Scott_xP said:

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore

    Let them eat Sovereignty...

    https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/1347263660155154436
    Simon who ? Friend of yours ? I can introduce you to a couple of fork lift truck drivers who say it has made no difference to them whatsoever.
  • Betfair have paid out on my Sportsbook 3/1 (boosted) bets on Jon Ossoff. I pushed the tip hard on here and I hope those who took it up are enjoying the win.

    I'm afraid that this won't be the last time you see me mention his name on here :smiley::wink: He's a very good debater and I can see him rising far and fast.

    Well done, Mystic, but please observe the Site tradition of maintaining a gracious modesty about one's successes.
  • Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Daily Mail sticking the boot into the Premier League, & the govt

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1347249189852475393?s=21

    What twats. People need entertainment, and some alternative to 24 hour covid and bloody clap for heroes bollocks.
    Indeed, the Americans have gone to great lengths to give us their political soap opera, as over the top as it is, the least we can do is return the favour with some premier league.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    Floater said:

    "Hello, is that Rod Crosby? I hear you're good with numbers, we have a 'they've got a number of votes more than us' problem here."

    https://twitter.com/kreuzberged/status/1347238751697854464?s=20

    What the actual fuck?



    At least he translated the "Arbeit macht frei" for US viewers.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Daily Mail sticking the boot into the Premier League, & the govt

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1347249189852475393?s=21

    What twats. People need entertainment, and some alternative to 24 hour covid and bloody clap for heroes bollocks.
    Yep I agree. Football, Cricket, the Arts. These should be incentivised to continue with as much protective bubbling as possible.

    We need them. The stakes are relatively low.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Forget the supermarkets and the army, we should get Amazon involved with the vaccine rollout.

    Everybody would be vaccinated by a week on Saturday whilst Prime members would be vaccinated by Wednesday.

    Yes but we'd all be bombarded with adverts for other vaccines: 'Recommended for you: two for one offer on Yellow Fever and Meningitis..'
    And you press on the wrong button once and for weeks after your partner is commenting on the frequency of salvarsan and HIV tests in Your Recommendations.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,327
    edited January 2021
    They were protestors last night and some clearly were having for a big day out but not not for a revolution. This was something I speculated early on about and thankfully proved to be the case.
    'Domestic terrorist' is just utter bullshit and is a phrase, if used relation to yesterday, is from people who have no sense of perspective.

    As a note, I mentioned last night that we have no idea whether those involved and those who support from the sidelines considered yesterday a success. From people who keep an eye on these things, the answer appears to be yes they did consider it a success. There is a bit of a high there

    Ipso facto its encouragement not disappointment. Disappointment takes two forms , the 'its a waste of time' disappointment and 'it needs something more because it isn't getting through' disappointment ' Let them have their sense of success, because you really don't want more of the latter type of disappointment


  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861

    Betfair have paid out on my Sportsbook 3/1 (boosted) bets on Jon Ossoff. I pushed the tip hard on here and I hope those who took it up are enjoying the win.

    I'm afraid that this won't be the last time you see me mention his name on here :smiley::wink: He's a very good debater and I can see him rising far and fast.

    Well done, Mystic, but please observe the Site tradition of maintaining a gracious modesty about one's successes.
    Yes. Well done. Good tip. Spend your winnings frivolously. :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Why is him not being in office going to stop them?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Daily Mail sticking the boot into the Premier League, & the govt

    https://twitter.com/mailsport/status/1347249189852475393?s=21

    What twats. People need entertainment, and some alternative to 24 hour covid and bloody clap for heroes bollocks.
    Yep I agree. Football, Cricket, the Arts. These should be incentivised to continue with as much protective bubbling as possible.

    We need them. The stakes are relatively low.
    I also think it's pretty silly to ban golf, as much as I feel about the sport. If you can insist that golfers don't touch each other's balls (!) keep 2 metres apart, and obviously don't mix after the 18th, all of which is perfectly possible, then there's no real reason to ban it. It's a form of exercise.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Endillion said:

    RobD said:

    Wearing your work ID to a riot? Jeez they are cretins.
    In a way its very lucky they were unorganised cretins...organized, trained and ruthless and we could have been looking at Die Hard does Government Coup.
    Worse than that. There is (I assume?) significant overlap between the rioters yesterday, and Second Amendment zealots. And one of their favourite interpretations of the Second Amendment is that it exists precisely in case citizens need to protect themselves from their own government. Which presumably includes if the establishment has "stolen an election" from them.
    100% overlap, I'd have thought. The saving grace is that they are pussies (though it might be unwise to taunt them with the fact on a forum where they might hear me). They know what horrific things their SARs are (not the virtually harmless toys they look like in Hollywood films) and that if they start shooting they will be shot back at and killed by people who are a lot better at it than they are.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Moscow would be a better bet for him. He'd be among friends and no extradition.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    You will want to ignore it. But it is a cogent analysis backed up by actual quotations from firms.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    stjohn said:

    ydoethur said:

    stjohn said:

    Text from a friend.

    It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'état region of France otherwise it's sparkling white terrorism.

    It's only a coup if it's successful. This wasn't. More of a coop. Where the chickens are coming home to roost.
    No it isn’t. You can have a failed or attempted coup - Turkey springs to mind. Or Spain 1981 for that matter.
    But failed coup and attempted coup = not a coup. And Turkey springs? They must be related to chickens.
    ‘Coup d’etat’ just means ‘a strike at the state.’ I’ve seen it used for both successful and unsuccessful attempts to overthrow a government.

    Not that it’s terribly important either way. They key thing at this moment is that it has failed.
  • BEST OXFORD VACCINE JOKE

    Pfizer vaccine: effective, protective and safe
    Moderna vaccine: effective, protective and safe
    Oxford vaccine: effective, protective, and safe

    Roy "TSE" Brown will be along in a few minutes to tell you which of your commas are acceptable
  • Barnesian said:

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Moscow would be a better bet for him. He'd be among friends and no extradition.
    Bit obvious though. Plus he's swapping golf for golden showers
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    ydoethur said:

    stjohn said:

    ydoethur said:

    stjohn said:

    Text from a friend.

    It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'état region of France otherwise it's sparkling white terrorism.

    It's only a coup if it's successful. This wasn't. More of a coop. Where the chickens are coming home to roost.
    No it isn’t. You can have a failed or attempted coup - Turkey springs to mind. Or Spain 1981 for that matter.
    But failed coup and attempted coup = not a coup. And Turkey springs? They must be related to chickens.
    ‘Coup d’etat’ just means ‘a strike at the state.’ I’ve seen it used for both successful and unsuccessful attempts to overthrow a government.

    Not that it’s terribly important either way. They key thing at this moment is that it has failed.
    Agreed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    BEST OXFORD VACCINE JOKE

    Pfizer vaccine: effective, protective and safe
    Moderna vaccine: effective, protective and safe
    Oxford vaccine: effective, protective, and safe

    Roy "TSE" Brown will be along in a few minutes to tell you which of your commas are acceptable
    He definitely has the comman touch.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Betfair have paid out on my Sportsbook 3/1 (boosted) bets on Jon Ossoff. I pushed the tip hard on here and I hope those who took it up are enjoying the win.

    I'm afraid that this won't be the last time you see me mention his name on here :smiley::wink: He's a very good debater and I can see him rising far and fast.

    Well done, Mystic, but please observe the Site tradition of maintaining a gracious modesty about one's successes.
    Good point.

    My humility can always be reinstated if you remind me of the complete and utter cock-up I made of the 2019 General Election.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    Yokes said:

    They were protestors last night and some clearly were having for a big day out but not not for a revolution. This was something I speculated early on about and thankfully proved to be the case.
    'Domestic terrorist' is just utter bullshit and is a phrase, if used relation to yesterday, is from people who have no sense of perspective.

    As a note, I mentioned last night that we have no idea whether those involved and those who support from the sidelines considered yesterday a success. From people who keep an eye on these things, the answer appears to be yes they did consider it a success. There is a bit of a high there

    Ipso facto its encouragement not disappointment. Disappointment takes two forms , the 'its a waste of time' disappointment and 'it needs something more because it isn't getting through' disappointment ' Let them have their sense of success, because you really don't want more of the latter type of disappointment


    There was a big mixture of people there, Whoever bought the truck full of weapons and whoever left the pipe bombs, and the group inside the Capitol with combat gear, hadn't come for a picnic. Conversely, quite a few others seemed to be relatively harmless cranks, people along for the ride and swept up in the moment, and frightened kids.

    Like a random cross-section of people watching Fox News on any one night over the last few years with their meal on their lap, probably.
  • blairfblairf Posts: 98

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    RobD said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    struck by brigadier's supermarket chain analogy as it is my area. mmm. so a super will have 40,000 SKU (lines) and the vaccine effort has er two. If gov did want efficient distribution they would have used the big 6 not the bloody army.

    How many SKUs do you think Army logistics has?
    off the top of my head i would guess about 10,000. your point being?
    my point (in case you were wondering) is that if you want an infrastructure that can get XXX stuff to the UK general pop under YYY conditions (temp, time, distance) would you use the army or the supers. one set do it for a living 24/7 365 the other not so much
    You seemed to be impugning in your comment the Army's ability to do logistics and implying that the Supermarkets would be better. Or did I get you wrong?
    military logisticians are some of the best in the world. but they aren't good at what they are being asked to do. get lots of stuff to everyone really quickly. not military. that is what supers do. the whole brigadier in a uniform schtick is bullshit straight from the nudge unit.
    Aren't the supermarkets busy stocking, you know, supermarkets? Army logistics is there for situations exactly like these.
    they are (and thank god they are or you would be starving). and army logistics is to get fighty killy stuff to the front line. the other bits are incidental. feeding an army vs feeding a nation. vaccinate a nation vs vaccinate an army.
    OK, what percentage of Army logistics do you think are fighty killy stuff vs food, water, fuel, living accommodations and medicine? Your assumptions appear to be a little off to me.
    There is a story which I have heard, but not been able to confirm, that during WWII the British, worried by German bombing of some warehouses in London bought all the tea that year to supply the troops. By "all the tea" I mean the entire world supply.
    There is a school of thought that the British military policy in the Far East was essentially, "whatever", until the Japanese threatened to take control of the world tea supply. Then the knuckledusters came out....
    would make sense. i get earlier thing down thread on military being good at reacting to change. i don't buy it. they are crap at that. dynamic response is not a military feature. the whole who runs the response thing is pretty much a wash. we are hosed. due to shit response from twats. not even sure response makes much odds. look at poland/germany vs uk. not much diff in the outrun. any how. supper time
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I don't understand this point. You have the largest peacetime military the world has ever known, and you can't guarantee to establish a secure perimeter more than a rifle shot away from the action and stop people bringing too many pipebombs through it?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,359

    time to leave the EU and get some vaccine
    Expect a tide of Irish residents heading north of the border for the jab?
  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    Biden has a chance to heal the centre and put common sense back in to US policy, but he's fluffed it. Pelosi needed to go for a clean break and to give him a chance, He decided on business as usual.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    RobD said:

    Wearing your work ID to a riot? Jeez they are cretins.
    In a way its very lucky they were unorganised cretins...organized, trained and ruthless and we could have been looking at Die Hard does Government Coup.
    Worse than that. There is (I assume?) significant overlap between the rioters yesterday, and Second Amendment zealots. And one of their favourite interpretations of the Second Amendment is that it exists precisely in case citizens need to protect themselves from their own government. Which presumably includes if the establishment has "stolen an election" from them.
    100% overlap, I'd have thought. The saving grace is that they are pussies (though it might be unwise to taunt them with the fact on a forum where they might hear me). They know what horrific things their SARs are (not the virtually harmless toys they look like in Hollywood films) and that if they start shooting they will be shot back at and killed by people who are a lot better at it than they are.
    May be wrong about this, Ish, but I think much of the weaponry in civilian hands is superior to some of the crap given to ordinary soldiers.

    Not sure it would be safe to assume all the citizens don't know how to use it either.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    Isn't NI a counterpoint?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Sandpit said:

    Would the world be better off if all politicians were banned from social media?

    Let’s ban all the politicians and journalists from Twitter - would make the public discourse so much better almost overnight.
    The world would be an infinitely sweeter, nicer place if Twitter and Facebook were banned altogether, and not reinvented.

    Remember when the internet meant Friends Reunited? Literally and nominally?

    We are a long way from there. Social media will be the downfall of western democracy
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    If there are interruptions markets fix themselves, supply chains change every day and the world moves on.

    And the UK is left in its wake..
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Republic of Ireland:

    https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1347259867573215233?s=20

    That's doubling roughly every 5 days

    I imagine the RoI health care system can't cope with that sort of rate of increase for very long.
    I think that it's possible that they're past the point of no return now. Even if cases start to decline from now, they will only do so gradually at best, and there are so many admissions on the way from recent cases. It's extraordinarily bad.

    The 7-day case incidence rate (per 100,000) is 753.5
    For the week before that it was 182.9

    So that has increased by a factor of more than four in a week.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Scott_xP said:

    If there are interruptions markets fix themselves, supply chains change every day and the world moves on.

    And the UK is left in its wake..
    How disappointing I was expecting Simon Nixon to tell you what to say
  • IshmaelZ said:

    I don't understand this point. You have the largest peacetime military the world has ever known, and you can't guarantee to establish a secure perimeter more than a rifle shot away from the action and stop people bringing too many pipebombs through it?
    The Secret Service/Capitol Police/Park Police are responsible for security inside the inauguration zone.

    It would be up to Trump to allow the armed forces to back up the security.

    You can see him agreeing to it, then withdrawing it on the morning, whilst telling his supporters to make their voices heard in Washington.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't understand this point. You have the largest peacetime military the world has ever known, and you can't guarantee to establish a secure perimeter more than a rifle shot away from the action and stop people bringing too many pipebombs through it?
    Not if the person in charge refuses to give the necessary orders you can’t.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Barnesian said:

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Moscow would be a better bet for him. He'd be among friends and no extradition.
    If he pardons Edward Snowden, they could swap places!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551
    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.
  • Barnesian said:

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Moscow would be a better bet for him. He'd be among friends and no extradition.
    Bit obvious though. Plus he's swapping golf for golden showers
    A would-be pedant who is too damn lazy to look it up vaguely recalls the allegation was not that Trump enjoyed golden showers but that Trump paid some of the best sex workers in the world to wet the bed previously occupied by President Obama.
  • Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,327
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    Isn't NI a counterpoint?
    No it is not. Terrorism with strategic intent was left with a situation where they could not succeed. Terrorism without strategic intent still exists in NI.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited January 2021

    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    RobD said:

    Wearing your work ID to a riot? Jeez they are cretins.
    In a way its very lucky they were unorganised cretins...organized, trained and ruthless and we could have been looking at Die Hard does Government Coup.
    Worse than that. There is (I assume?) significant overlap between the rioters yesterday, and Second Amendment zealots. And one of their favourite interpretations of the Second Amendment is that it exists precisely in case citizens need to protect themselves from their own government. Which presumably includes if the establishment has "stolen an election" from them.
    100% overlap, I'd have thought. The saving grace is that they are pussies (though it might be unwise to taunt them with the fact on a forum where they might hear me). They know what horrific things their SARs are (not the virtually harmless toys they look like in Hollywood films) and that if they start shooting they will be shot back at and killed by people who are a lot better at it than they are.
    May be wrong about this, Ish, but I think much of the weaponry in civilian hands is superior to some of the crap given to ordinary soldiers.

    Not sure it would be safe to assume all the citizens don't know how to use it either.
    I am sure they can hit a target with it, but I know where the clever money is in a well regulated Militia vs actual police or military standoff, and I suspect so do they. There must be a reason why US gun atrocities are always lone-shooter-on-unarmed-innocents rather than actual gunfights.

    ETA and guns are only a small part of it anyway; only one side has the killer drones and the choppers.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    which makes the great point we should just close down Twitter
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,828
    Yokes said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    Isn't NI a counterpoint?
    No it is not. Terrorism with strategic intent was left with a situation where they could not succeed. Terrorism without strategic intent still exists in NI.
    Thats a very fair point.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Whoa. Did Boris Johnson actually just condemn Donald Trump for subverting democracy?

    He did. Shocked he was so candid, but it was needed.
    I think he broke my jaw. There was a sharp pain as it hit the floor.

    You’re right he needed to, but I never thought he’d do it.
    Trump is a nobody now. A dangerous nobody, but a nobody. I think he knows perfectly well how people only respected him because he was the President, but will still be shocked when people start condemning him. People who disliked him still having to kiss his arse seems like the primary perk of the job for a man like him.
    Dangerously naive. The polling above seems like the perfect recipe for a civil war, to me. Many MILLIONS of Americans - generally white, highly armed - agree with the attempted storming of the Capitol
    Millions of Brits supported the riots that led to the defacing of the Cenotaph.

    Civil wars usually require (a) an actual attack on the rights of a minority of the populations, and (b) a charismatic an organised leader.

    I don't think we're there yet in the US, although that might change.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,327
    Barnesian said:

    If you were Trump and the Family, you have to now be finalising your thinking about where to go once you leave office.

    As the chance of arrest is increasing from a number of fronts, perhaps the speculated flounce to Turnberry is a sane option. If the Americans want him back they'd have to secure his extradition - would they push it that far and would a UK court grant it?

    Moscow would be a better bet for him. He'd be among friends and no extradition.
    I cannot begin to stress how much that the story of Trump and Russia is not over.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Yup. It was his life, and now he can't post on it for fear of either being restricted and thus humiliated in what he says, or banned for life. What a power Twitter has had.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    RobD said:

    Why is him not being in office going to stop them?
    It will stop him, or his family, from leaking information about the security, or from obstructing Federal resources from being properly deployed.
  • Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    which makes the great point we should just close down Twitter
    My boy Dave (pbuh) was right on Twitter.
  • HYUFD said:

    This polling shows Trumpism has got hold of the GOP for at least a decade, Republican voters narrowly support the actions last night and overwhelmingly think Trump should not be impeached in total contrast to the rest of the US electorate.

    Also this is only the first presidential election defeat post Trump for the GOP, it took Labour 4 general election defeats to elect a centrist leadership candidate post Blair.

    Even if Trump does not run again in 2024 then another Trumpite like Cruz or Hawley or his son will run again and VP Pence by condemning the protestors and allowing Biden's confirmation last night will probably end up being the moderate candidate for the GOP nomination next time so populist and rightwing has the GOP core base now become.

    Many voters who would comfortably have defined themselves as Republican in the Reagan and Bush era now clearly define themselves as Independents too, so the GOP base left is more conservative and more populist

    I agree with that.
    Not sure I do. Americans - including Trumpsky supporters - are still in a state of shock. It will take more than a few hours for the full impact to sink in. Wait for it.

    Note that when Joe McCarthy bit the Big Weenie, his downfall did NOT happen overnight. Took a wee bit longer. But happen it did.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Scott_xP said:
    Yeah but Alanbrooke knows some forklift truck drivers who haven't noticed any difference.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    which makes the great point we should just close down Twitter
    My boy Dave (pbuh) was right on Twitter.
    yes, spot on
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    Scott_xP said:
    Yeah but Alanbrooke knows some forklift truck drivers who haven't noticed any difference.
    Yes, is that a problem for you ?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    edited January 2021

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Yup. It was his life, and now he can't post on it for fear of either being restricted and thus humiliated in what he says, or banned for life.
    I wish Twitter could ban itself somehow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Gaussian said:

    An update to the reported case graphs, with London as special guest, because that's where we'll first see whether the lockdown is enough to contain the new strain.

    Looking hopeful, but as @Malmesbury points out, the flattening off could turn out to be a mirage due to delayed testing after Christmas, which caused a drop before exaggerated growth.

    This is about as pure as anecdata gets, in its uselessness, but a week ago the ambulances were shrieking around London.

    Today I went for a mulled-wine, stop-and-drink, legally-licensed, socially-distanced walk down the South Bank with an old mate.

    We stood by Waterloo Bridge at about 4pm. A beautiful, slanted light illuminated the Shard, the Eye, Westminster and the City. Lots of people were out jogging, cycling, flirting, dating. At a cautious distance. There was not a siren to be heard. London looked absolutely magnificent. Earth has not many things that look more fair.

    Let us pray. Hard.
  • Anthony Scaramucci has tweeted 'Donald Trump is going to jail.'
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    RobD said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    blairf said:

    TimT said:

    blairf said:

    struck by brigadier's supermarket chain analogy as it is my area. mmm. so a super will have 40,000 SKU (lines) and the vaccine effort has er two. If gov did want efficient distribution they would have used the big 6 not the bloody army.

    How many SKUs do you think Army logistics has?
    off the top of my head i would guess about 10,000. your point being?
    my point (in case you were wondering) is that if you want an infrastructure that can get XXX stuff to the UK general pop under YYY conditions (temp, time, distance) would you use the army or the supers. one set do it for a living 24/7 365 the other not so much
    You seemed to be impugning in your comment the Army's ability to do logistics and implying that the Supermarkets would be better. Or did I get you wrong?
    military logisticians are some of the best in the world. but they aren't good at what they are being asked to do. get lots of stuff to everyone really quickly. not military. that is what supers do. the whole brigadier in a uniform schtick is bullshit straight from the nudge unit.
    Aren't the supermarkets busy stocking, you know, supermarkets? Army logistics is there for situations exactly like these.
    they are (and thank god they are or you would be starving). and army logistics is to get fighty killy stuff to the front line. the other bits are incidental. feeding an army vs feeding a nation. vaccinate a nation vs vaccinate an army.
    OK, what percentage of Army logistics do you think are fighty killy stuff vs food, water, fuel, living accommodations and medicine? Your assumptions appear to be a little off to me.
    There is a story which I have heard, but not been able to confirm, that during WWII the British, worried by German bombing of some warehouses in London bought all the tea that year to supply the troops. By "all the tea" I mean the entire world supply.
    There is a school of thought that the British military policy in the Far East was essentially, "whatever", until the Japanese threatened to take control of the world tea supply. Then the knuckledusters came out....
    i get earlier thing down thread on military being good at reacting to change. i don't buy it. they are crap at that. dynamic response is not a military feature.
    You do talk a lot of shit.

    Yes, at a mega level, you could make the case that the military are always fighting the last war, or that they are fighting the war for the equipment they have. But at the unit level, adaptability is the essence of effective militaries: ideas such as Command Intent and Line of Sight, which industry is trying to adopt from the military, provide precisely the basis for rapid change of strategy in the face of battle when events invalidate the plan under fire.

    VUCA, another approach industry is trying to adopt, comes out of the Pentagon and War Colleges too. High Reliability Organizations - US Navy in origin. Recognition-primed decision-making - US Marine Aviators.

    But even at the mega level, I don't buy your bill of sale. The two Gulf Wars stunned the world precisely because the US military had changed so much in peace time (the first since Vietnam, the second, since the first), e.g. introducing concepts based around IT, such as whole battlefield management, or around social psychology, such as 'shock and awe'. Whether they were effective or not (some were spectacularly effective), these were major innovations done out of sight of the public until the wars.
  • HYUFD said:

    This polling shows Trumpism has got hold of the GOP for at least a decade, Republican voters narrowly support the actions last night and overwhelmingly think Trump should not be impeached in total contrast to the rest of the US electorate.

    Also this is only the first presidential election defeat post Trump for the GOP, it took Labour 4 general election defeats to elect a centrist leadership candidate post Blair.

    Even if Trump does not run again in 2024 then another Trumpite like Cruz or Hawley or his son will run again and VP Pence by condemning the protestors and allowing Biden's confirmation last night will probably end up being the moderate candidate for the GOP nomination next time so populist and rightwing has the GOP core base now become.

    Many voters who would comfortably have defined themselves as Republican in the Reagan and Bush era now clearly define themselves as Independents too, so the GOP base left is more conservative and more populist

    I agree with that.
    Not sure I do. Americans - including Trumpsky supporters - are still in a state of shock. It will take more than a few hours for the full impact to sink in. Wait for it.

    Note that when Joe McCarthy bit the Big Weenie, his downfall did NOT happen overnight. Took a wee bit longer. But happen it did.
    It's something you see a lot when people predict the future. Recent events take on a far bigger significance than they should. Novelties take time to be interpreted and processed.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't understand this point. You have the largest peacetime military the world has ever known, and you can't guarantee to establish a secure perimeter more than a rifle shot away from the action and stop people bringing too many pipebombs through it?
    The Secret Service/Capitol Police/Park Police are responsible for security inside the inauguration zone.

    It would be up to Trump to allow the armed forces to back up the security.

    You can see him agreeing to it, then withdrawing it on the morning, whilst telling his supporters to make their voices heard in Washington.
    After events of yesterday and Chris Miller's statement I am confident of Trump being ignored entirely in those circumstances.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,327
    edited January 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Endillion said:

    RobD said:

    Wearing your work ID to a riot? Jeez they are cretins.
    In a way its very lucky they were unorganised cretins...organized, trained and ruthless and we could have been looking at Die Hard does Government Coup.
    Worse than that. There is (I assume?) significant overlap between the rioters yesterday, and Second Amendment zealots. And one of their favourite interpretations of the Second Amendment is that it exists precisely in case citizens need to protect themselves from their own government. Which presumably includes if the establishment has "stolen an election" from them.
    100% overlap, I'd have thought. The saving grace is that they are pussies (though it might be unwise to taunt them with the fact on a forum where they might hear me). They know what horrific things their SARs are (not the virtually harmless toys they look like in Hollywood films) and that if they start shooting they will be shot back at and killed by people who are a lot better at it than they are.
    May be wrong about this, Ish, but I think much of the weaponry in civilian hands is superior to some of the crap given to ordinary soldiers.

    Not sure it would be safe to assume all the citizens don't know how to use it either.
    I am sure they can hit a target with it, but I know where the clever money is in a well regulated Militia vs actual police or military standoff, and I suspect so do they. There must be a reason why US gun atrocities are always lone-shooter-on-unarmed-innocents rather than actual gunfights.

    ETA and guns are only a small part of it anyway; only one side has the killer drones and the choppers.
    There is also the small point of intelligence, as in spying, rather than brains. A lot of these groups are very well infiltrated by authorities.

    In a society where weaponry is so readily available and the ability to associate & train with it and others of like mind is viable, the issue then comes down to will & skill. Skill can be trained. If there is will somewhere, those who have it either were not in Washington yesterday or kept a low profile. Certainly if I was in their shoes I'd be looking to cause trouble somewhere else where the cameras are not. The methodology and targets wouldn't be that difficult to work out.
  • Linsey Graham saying lethal force should have been used against those storming the Capitol.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't understand this point. You have the largest peacetime military the world has ever known, and you can't guarantee to establish a secure perimeter more than a rifle shot away from the action and stop people bringing too many pipebombs through it?
    But it is controlled by Trump. That's the issue.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314

    Barnesian said:

    It's strange. Without Twitter, Trump has disappeared.

    Somebody made the point earlier on that you don't hear much from Katie Hopkins since she was banned from Twitter.
    You could have kept it that way, but you just had to mention her didn't you, reminding me of her foulness?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Anthony Scaramucci has tweeted 'Donald Trump is going to jail.'

    I think ‘lock him up’ is a better slogan.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,359
    ydoethur said:

    Text from a friend.

    It's only a coup if it's from the coup d'état region of France otherwise it's sparkling white terrorism.

    It was a coup de twat.
    Storming of the bad steal, coup de twat...you’ve got this, Mr Glenn.
    Storming of the Ballot-steal was arguably better.....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    In other news:

    World's unluckiest burglars' arrested after calling police by accident: Staffordshire police arrest two men on suspicion of burglary after one sits on phone and dials 999


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/07/suspected-burglars-arrested-after-calling-police-by-accident
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695
    I wonder what Plato would be posting if she was still with us?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1347272899019866113

    They sent the same message to every cabinet member
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    You don't heal terrorism.
    You see, its interesting. How high up the democrats' political agenda is 'going after' Trump, Trumpism and Trumpists? Above the economy? above foreign policy? above immigration? above climate change? Above everything?

    It remains to be seen, too, whether 'going after' is a euphemism. How far will the Biden regime go? Some are highlighting articles talking about 'cleansing' Trumpists. That's not a nice term.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Lock them up.

    Intern them.

    Wasn’t interning more of a Bill Clinton thing?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:
    and in a sentence why Biden wont heal the US.
    I'm sorry, there's no healing this. These traitors need to be defeated, not coddled.
    Biden has a chance to heal the centre and put common sense back in to US policy, but he's fluffed it. Pelosi needed to go for a clean break and to give him a chance, He decided on business as usual.
    You've written words but I don't understand them.

    What is Biden supposed to be healing?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    IanB2 said:

    In other news:

    World's unluckiest burglars' arrested after calling police by accident: Staffordshire police arrest two men on suspicion of burglary after one sits on phone and dials 999


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/07/suspected-burglars-arrested-after-calling-police-by-accident

    I would have said that shows an unusual level of sophistication by burglars in Stoke. I mean, at least they had a mobile phone.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Interesting thread from Peter Foster of the FT. An increasing list of businesses and business sectors that simply don't work under the new arrangements. Having spent yonks pointing to the reality of how things work vs government rhetoric they had assumed that some common sense would now be applied.

    Nope. This is the deal. And its going to drive a lot of business abroad to stay in the EEA.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1347244528592433153

    right

    so now were not all eating grass the, world hasnt fallen apart and we're not at war with Europe the FT have decided to keep sulking and print yet more bollocks

    ignore
    Quite so.

    I have basically accepted that Brexit will be WORSE than forecast. And will result in a pretty immediate drop in GDP. Maybe 1-3%. Normally the stuff of crisis. And with ongoing damage.

    But Covid is so much worse, it utterly dwarfs Brexit. Many economies around the world, especially the tuourist economies, are going to plunge by 10% of GDP or more. Including EU economies reliant on a shite EU vaccine roll-out.

    Brexiteers are "lucky". The destruction of Brexit is going to look trivial compared to Coronavirus. And by the time the major Brexit damage is done it will all be overshadowed by ongoing struggles with the virus.

    If Boris and the Tories can successfully manage the vaccine roll out, they could win a handsome second majority in 2024.
This discussion has been closed.