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Dramatic scenes in Washington as Trump supporters try to stop Congress approving Biden’s victory – p

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  • "borders on sedition" - Biden

    Borders?

    Ah, the Brexit Deal :lol:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
    No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.

    We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.

    If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
    Before mobile phones became ubiquitous the phone box in my parents' tiny village was repeatedly vandalised. That caused significantly more distress and inconvenience than the vandalism against Coulston's statue caused anyone.

    Yet the guy who was doing it all probably thinks he has graduated to the big league.
    I promise it wasn't me. Graffitti on desks was about as far as I got in the vandalism stakes.
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 257
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
    There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.

    Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
    FFS - it's even more simple than that. The LIbDems offered people a choice to change their minds, they rejected it. No comparison at all.
    There’s plenty to say about the staggering scenes coming out of the US. We have seen their Parliament stormed and trashed by armed protestors, and we as good as saw an innocent woman shot before our eyes. You might comment on the implications for Trump personally, for the Republican Party, for American politics, even for democracy and America’s standing around the world. You might search for betting opportunities or speculate on how it might affect the markets.

    There is every chance that some future generation of American school-kids might one day be writing exam essays about it.

    We can be reasonably confident that when the history books come to be written, no-one is going to be drawing a parallel with Jo Swinson’s election campaign.

    Our resident fool has simply demonstrated why he is so regarded.
    Great post. Drawing a direct comparison between an armed coup and the Lib Dems... well, where to start...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Biden calling on Trump to go on national TV now and defend the constitution

    Actually quite good from Biden. Simple and direct
    Agreed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Biden very impressive here.

    Plenty on here said he was the wrong candidate for Dems.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited January 2021

    A disappointing lack of gun-toting bikini-clad Milf in the ranks of the revolutionaries.

    That's the second wave.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Quite a speech from Biden. Impressed.
  • Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
    There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.

    Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
    We had a referendum. Then we had a general election. Then we had another general election.

    You sadly have just had a series of regenerations and have become more of a cockmunch every time.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    A disappointing lack of gun-toting bikini-clad Milf in the ranks of the revolutionaries.

    Yeah, that Tarantino machine gun false leg thing would have been good.

    Mistake by Trump to give Biden the opportunity to make this speech.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Alistair said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.

    Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.

    Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
    He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
    They should try being less racist. Then people wouldn't treat them like they are racists.
    Many of these people are ones who voted for Obama. Do you think they thought he wasn't Black?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited January 2021
    Jonathan said:

    Trump ain’t running in 2024 now.

    But someone with his surname or the surname Kushner might.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,451
    edited January 2021
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1346926138057220103?s=20

    Disgraceful, he took far too long to tweet, or something.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
    No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.

    We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.

    If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
    Aren't you a member of the Free Speech Union? Apologies if not.
    Yes I am. You played a big part in that by accusing me of being a racist.

    Of course, you can say what you like and I can defend myself accordingly.

    You know full well that such a smear in itself can destroy a career. So given you and I had met (and I thought got on rather well in person) I took it very seriously.
  • Biden is very Presidential.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.

    Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.

    Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
    He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
    Trump is not the first politician to listen to racist homophobic hicks. But he is the first American president in modern times to empower and celebrate those views.

    He's blown any chance of staying a player in US politics now. Cloud. Silver lining.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
    No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.

    We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.

    If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
    Colston was a scumbag who profited from the greatest crime in human history. His statue should have been torn down decades ago. To claim some kind of moral equivalence between that and the violent assault on US democracy we're seeing tonight is grotesque.
    Congratulations for winning the non sequitur of the thread award.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.

    Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder

    We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.

    I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
    Stop working so hard to miss the point.

    It's Trump.
    Yes, Trump's the immediate trigger. We all know that. We all agree.

    And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?

    That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
    Hurrah for the Blackshirts say the fellow travellers.
    Oh, calm yourself, you big girl's blouse.

    It's also worth remembering that societies born of revolution are ALWAYS more violent, thereafter, than countries that "peacefully" evolve.

    France and America are both formed by Revolutions that gave them their birth. In France, they have the gilets jaune, and a long history of quite violent opposition to, and suspicion of, government. Their national day is Bastille Day, when they literally celebrate the violent, bloody overthrowing of the government. This infuses their DNA. It explains much of the French political character and their tendency to very extravagant protest.

    France wasn't "born" in 1789! I would say Joan of Arc helped found the modern country we call France (yes, that long ago).
  • https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1346926138057220103?s=20

    Disgraceful, he took far too long to tweet, or something.

    Well done Boris!
  • Trump is going to speak apparently in a bit.
  • Jonathan said:

    Trump ain’t running in 2024 now.

    Could still be running....from the law....
    If Kenny Rogers taught us anything, it was that you can't outrun the long arm of the law.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    You can have this debate once these loons are ejected and the elected government is in situ.

    Until then there are more important matters.
    Ok, that's a fair point. I would be happy to wait until the waters have calmed. At least enough for us to have a civilised debate on here amongst fellow intelligent posters.

    I'll leave it for now.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1346926138057220103?s=20

    Disgraceful, he took far too long to tweet, or something.

    I hope Trump's lot don't win this battle...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    DougSeal said:

    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
    There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.

    Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
    FFS - it's even more simple than that. The LIbDems offered people a choice to change their minds, they rejected it. No comparison at all.
    There’s plenty to say about the staggering scenes coming out of the US. We have seen their Parliament stormed and trashed by armed protestors, and we as good as saw an innocent woman shot before our eyes. You might comment on the implications for Trump personally, for the Republican Party, for American politics, even for democracy and America’s standing around the world. You might search for betting opportunities or speculate on how it might affect the markets.

    There is every chance that some future generation of American school-kids might one day be writing exam essays about it.

    We can be reasonably confident that when the history books come to be written, no-one is going to be drawing a parallel with Jo Swinson’s election campaign.

    Our resident fool has simply demonstrated why he is so regarded.
    I don't get it - from what I can tell you're agreeing with me. I think calling me the "resident fool" a bit harsh in those circumstances.
    I had hoped it self-evident that this referred to the OP
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.

    Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.

    Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
    He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
    Trump is not the first politician to listen to racist homophobic hicks. But he is the first American president in modern times to empower and celebrate those views.

    He's blown any chance of staying a player in US politics now. Cloud. Silver lining.
    Be careful what you wish for. The next reiteration will be a lot smarter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    It's backwards day as the Leader of North Korea...admits failure

    North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un has admitted his five-year economic plan for the isolated country failed to meet its targets in "almost every sector"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55563598

    ALthough apparently he is a humble kind of despot

    It is not unusual for Mr Kim to admit mistakes - in fact, it is quickly becoming one of his trademarks, the BBC's Laura Bicker in Seoul reports
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Shit just got real.

    Mike Pence has just unfollowed President Trump on Twitter.

    That is brilliant.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1346926138057220103?s=20

    Disgraceful, he took far too long to tweet, or something.

    You would have to say his support of Trump over three years, as well as Gove's and Farage's, has been pretty disgraceful for the UK, really.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Trump is going to speak apparently in a bit.

    If somebody’s put a bit on him, it’s a great idea but he’ll not be able to speak very well (which is why it’s a great idea).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    "Female Trump supporter is shot inside the Capitol and pipe bomb found as President's mob storm and loot Congress to stop Biden victory confirmation: National Guard is deployed, 6pm DC curfew is declared and violence spreads nationwide"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9119427/Mike-Pence-REFUSES-follow-Donald-Trumps-demand-overturn-Joe-Bidens-victory.html
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    We didn't think they wanted it this time. But come tomorrow most of those who supported him today will still do so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    MrEd said:
    Damn, that would have been hilarious.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    OllyT said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
    If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.

    What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
    I think we all know the answer to that, no need to spell it out.
    No, you need to spell it out so we can all examine the evidence otherwise you are simply trying to rebut an unwelcome contribution to the debate by insinuation, innuendo and smear.
  • kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Biden calling on Trump to go on national TV now and defend the constitution

    Actually quite good from Biden. Simple and direct
    He was never as bad as some thought, he has his moments, and he is good at coming across as human and sincere.
    His 2016 DNC speech was excellent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.

    Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder

    We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.

    I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
    Stop working so hard to miss the point.

    It's Trump.
    Yes, Trump's the immediate trigger. We all know that. We all agree.

    And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?

    That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
    Hurrah for the Blackshirts say the fellow travellers.
    Oh, calm yourself, you big girl's blouse.

    It's also worth remembering that societies born of revolution are ALWAYS more violent, thereafter, than countries that "peacefully" evolve.

    France and America are both formed by Revolutions that gave them their birth. In France, they have the gilets jaune, and a long history of quite violent opposition to, and suspicion of, government. Their national day is Bastille Day, when they literally celebrate the violent, bloody overthrowing of the government. This infuses their DNA. It explains much of the French political character and their tendency to very extravagant protest.

    In America they have July 4, the Tea Party, the Minutemen, and a Constitution which arms the people so they can resist an overweening government: again, it is in their DNA.

    In contrast we have countries like Japan or the UK which have evolved more gently - even if they have been very violent towards other countries, in defence or attac -, they generally expect their political elite to respond to their desires without the need for insurrection, and the need for an armed populace is absent.

    One history is not necessarily better than the other. The USA and France are both very rich, successful countries. They are just different to others.

    Again, for the hard of hearing, I am not exonerating these cretins at the Capitol. But it does serve us well to observe the historical context.
    Japan evolved into a democracy after the application of 14 pounds of plutonium and a still discussed number of pounds of enriched uranium.

    Even I think that wasn't especially gentle. Justified, maybe, but verging on the terse side of polite.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1346926138057220103?s=20

    Disgraceful, he took far too long to tweet, or something.

    Just imagine the diplomatic repercussions if the coup somehow succeeds.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.

    To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.

    Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.

    That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
    A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.

    You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).

    All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.

    I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
    No, there really are not "two sides to this".

    That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.

    You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
    I'm on the side of democracy. Unequivocally.

    That doesn't mean we can't discuss the broader political and culture schisms in America at the same time. We have ample evidence for it now.
    That's exactly the point @Casino_Royale. Well done to you for putting your head above the parapet.
    Oh do stop it with that nonsense again, Ed. Nobody's going to get shot here. Snippy post from me or ilk is the worst that can happen. Maybe with a swear word.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
    If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.

    What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
    Racism? Oh, I'm sorry, I mustn't call you a racist, as I can't indulge my right to Free Speech :lol:
    What have I said that's racist, Sunil?
    BLM have NEVER attempted a coup, unless I'm very much mistaken.
    What have I said that's racist, Sunil?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Trump is going to speak apparently in a bit.

    “The election was stolen from us and was fraudulent but you must go home now, you are very special and we love you.””
  • Lets see how this ends. I assume that they are planning to retake the Capitol by force. Gubermint attacking we the people to impose a sham election by force is not what America needs right now.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Seems protestors took plenty of photos of themselves smashing into the congressional chamber for social media.

    No doubt the FBI will be very interested.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited January 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Trump is going to speak apparently in a bit.

    “The election was stolen from us and was fraudulent but you must go home now, you are very special and we love you.””
    I think it being recorded may be a sign he will have been given a very tight script to stick to, so he doesn't make things worse. If it was live he would pepper it with petulant denials that he did said anything incendiary, and by the way look at the evil democrats.

    Edit: Well, I was wrong. Still led with stolen election. He cannot say they do not represent him either, he made it clear they are his.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Biden is very good at judging the right words to use in these situations.

    Presidential.

    He's been in training his whole adult life.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    A lot of world leaders buttered up the US President.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.

    To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.

    Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.

    That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
    A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.

    You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).

    All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.

    I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
    No, there really are not "two sides to this".

    That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.

    You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
    I'm on the side of democracy. Unequivocally.

    That doesn't mean we can't discuss the broader political and culture schisms in America at the same time. We have ample evidence for it now.
    That's exactly the point @Casino_Royale. Well done to you for putting your head above the parapet.
    Oh do stop it with that nonsense again, Ed. Nobody's going to get shot here. Snippy post from me or ilk is the worst that can happen. Maybe with a swear word.
    Oh come on @kinabalu, you're not the snippiest or the nastiest of the posters by a long way
  • TRUMP ADDRESSES RIOTERS HE UNLEASHED (genuine CNN graohic): I had my landslide election stolen but you have to go home now
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Amid the carnage, NBC just declared Jon Ossoff the winner in Georgia.

    The Democrats will control the Senate, when it's released from the mob
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Shit just got real.

    Mike Pence has just unfollowed President Trump on Twitter.

    Seriously?

    Wow.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Remove him. Now
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Amid the carnage, NBC just declared Jon Ossoff the winner in Georgia.

    The Democrats will control the Senate, when it's released from the mob
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Floater said:
    "Please don't arrest me for sedition".

  • Floater said:
    No flag badge either.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,638

    Biden is very good at judging the right words to use in these situations.

    Presidential.

    He has got it under control. As has Pence. Unlike some of the hard left bedwetters on here!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.

    To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.

    Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.

    That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
    A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.

    You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).

    All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.

    I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
    No, there really are not "two sides to this".

    That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.

    You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
    I'm on the side of democracy. Unequivocally.

    That doesn't mean we can't discuss the broader political and culture schisms in America at the same time. We have ample evidence for it now.
    That's exactly the point @Casino_Royale. Well done to you for putting your head above the parapet.
    Oh do stop it with that nonsense again, Ed. Nobody's going to get shot here. Snippy post from me or ilk is the worst that can happen. Maybe with a swear word.
    True. We should be thankful for that.

    We are not really like that in the UK.

    I would say that makes me proud to be British, but that would probably wind you up - so I'll leave it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MrEd said:

    Alistair said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.

    Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.

    Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
    He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
    They should try being less racist. Then people wouldn't treat them like they are racists.
    Many of these people are ones who voted for Obama. Do you think they thought he wasn't Black?
    A tiny percentage of Trump voters voted for Obama.

    I'm not saying all Trump voters are racists but I bet you a lot of money that a huge proportion of the twats in the Capitol building right now are.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    guybrush said:

    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
    There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.

    Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
    FFS - it's even more simple than that. The LIbDems offered people a choice to change their minds, they rejected it. No comparison at all.
    There’s plenty to say about the staggering scenes coming out of the US. We have seen their Parliament stormed and trashed by armed protestors, and we as good as saw an innocent woman shot before our eyes. You might comment on the implications for Trump personally, for the Republican Party, for American politics, even for democracy and America’s standing around the world. You might search for betting opportunities or speculate on how it might affect the markets.

    There is every chance that some future generation of American school-kids might one day be writing exam essays about it.

    We can be reasonably confident that when the history books come to be written, no-one is going to be drawing a parallel with Jo Swinson’s election campaign.

    Our resident fool has simply demonstrated why he is so regarded.
    Great post. Drawing a direct comparison between an armed coup and the Lib Dems... well, where to start...
    I am pretty sure that when the history of the 2010s-2020s is written, there will be direct comparison between Brexit and Trump. Remainers have been doing it for years, and for very good reasons, tho many of them far too complex and convoluted to go into now.

    Thankfully, British politics has enacted the will of the people, and remains calm, even as we face a once-in-a-century plague. This is a good thing. What we are witnessing in Washington is truly sad. I love America, this is awful.
  • That Trump statement was amazing. I HAD MY LANDSLIDE STOLEN. I FEEL YOUR PAIN. YOU LOVE ME. please go home.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    Amid the carnage, NBC just declared Jon Ossoff the winner in Georgia.

    The Democrats will control the Senate, when it's released from the mob

    Impeach time.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Biden is very good at judging the right words to use in these situations.

    Presidential.

    Yes, despite today's events it was very reassuring and that the USA may be back shortly.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021
    No. Three years of working with the President of the United States of America.

    Every government in the UK works with every government of the USA. That goes with the territory.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    No, it is whataboutery.

    And by the way, I have not accused you or any other PB poster of being a racist. I am careful not to do so.
    Um. You drew a direct equivalence between me and the Blackshirts.

    If you are happy to withdraw this I would graciously accept your apology.
    The Blackshirts I am aware of (Mussolini's and Mosley's) were first and foremost anti-communist (and anti-Russia) which I thought was your avowed position; any racism was in their spare time. I don't think the allegation you think has been made, has been made.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    Floater said:
    No words would have been better.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Floater said:
    Good Lord haha

    I saw a funny Wogan interview with the kid out of The Goonies who played Chunk earlier, and he was just like Trump! Interestingly he is a lawyer now
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    kle4 said:

    A lot of world leaders buttered up the US President.
    I recall a lot of ribbing of the UK when Macron secured an early State Visit.....
  • Hoo boy, that 25th Amendment is looking real good right about now, huh?
  • In what way was the election stolen, Donald?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited January 2021
    This is a truly sad day for american democracy.
    Bringing it in to a banana Republic territory.
    Trump has disgraced his county in such a terrible way.
    I truly hope it will recover.

    As for the UK we should not be to complacent.
    It could happen here the rule of international law has already been abused by our government , over an argument as mundane as EU brexit.
  • Amid the carnage, NBC just declared Jon Ossoff the winner in Georgia.

    The Democrats will control the Senate, when it's released from the mob

    No more free money available (at time of posting but check again in half an hour) on Betfair.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    A lot of world leaders buttered up the US President.
    We've been over this a few times, but very few as much aa Boris Johnson. He saw and publicly advertised a unique alliance with him, and many of his backroom staff had direct personal contacts and association's with Trump's via the Brexit referendum. There are no other world leaders in that situation, even the ones endorsed by him at more of a distance, such as Bolsonaro, Duerte, or Modi.
  • Well that Trump will calm the situation won't it....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Maybe Trump will grow into the Presidency...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Amid the carnage, NBC just declared Jon Ossoff the winner in Georgia.

    The Democrats will control the Senate, when it's released from the mob

    Impeach time.
    Time isn’t eligible, nor has it done anything wrong.

    Nor can you impeach a President without a two thirds majority.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Floater said:

    The sooner Twitter delete Trump's account the better. 1 second after Biden is inaugurated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    edited January 2021

    kle4 said:

    A lot of world leaders buttered up the US President.
    We've been over this a few times, but very few as much aa Boris Johnson. He saw an alliance with him, and many of his backroom staff had direct personal contacts with Trump's via the Brexit referendum. There are no other world leaders like that.
    We have been over it, and it is always overblown. Attempts to link Boris to Trump get overdone and make it very easy for Boris supporters to dismiss actually relevant criticisms of him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Biden is very good at judging the right words to use in these situations.

    Presidential.

    Yes, despite today's events it was very reassuring and that the USA may be back shortly.
    I just expect more of moderate Democrats to calm this down. Especially given they are now in charge.

    My fear is they'll misjudge it and push ahead with a "radical" programme.

    I really hope Biden can rein them in and lead them to a maturer place. And I hope the Republicans can expunge the rot of Trump too and respond to that.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    Biden is very good at judging the right words to use in these situations.

    Presidential.

    He has got it under control. As has Pence. Unlike some of the hard left bedwetters on here!
    'Hard left bed wetters'. Who the hell on here is 'hard left'?
  • One of the most terrifying things I have ever witnessed - sedition and terrorism in the capital of the western world, fuelled and ignited by Trump, Fox News, and the insane mob that passes for a political party and movement in the US.
    Thankfully it looks as if this is being taken down and taken apart as we watch, and without more a a handful of injuries. But the damage to American democracy could last a long time.
    What happens now?
    Will those Republican Senators and Representatives who earlier objected to the vote certification ceremony now take a long hard look at themselves and their actions, and withdraw their objections?
    Will those other Republicans - including, my god, Mitch McConnell - who supported the peaceful transition of power be able to sit next to Cruz, Hawley, Gosar and the rest, and either stay in the Republican Party with them, or let them stay in the GOP?
    Will anybody be subject to arrest, court proceedings, or anything else for the disgusting actions we've witnessed today?
    Will reasonable Republican voters look at what they've seen and realise they've been had, they've been misled, they've been manipulated?
    Let's hope something good comes out of this. Because at the moment it all looks nothing but awful.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    I remember the day when a bunch of pro-hunting clowns stormed the Commons chamber.

    It always seems to be the right who do this sort of thing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    Floater said:

    Watching live footage and one of the protesters is actually dressed as the joker - surreal

    Hollywood executives being both appalled and quietly going "Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" at being part of history....
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    Seriously how can any sensible person watch that and think "let him have another fortnight?"
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Twitter blocked Trumps latest from being retweeted, commented upon or liked - plus the usual warning over accuracy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    Whataboutery during a coup attempt.
  • 'If we go home, the gubbermint will steal the election from us and impose a communist dictator. Listen to the REAL President. Even now he is clear that he won by a landslide! This is an outrage!!!"
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,214
    All very dramatic and potentially tragic. Hopefully they will find some way to de escalate peacefully.
This discussion has been closed.