Got to be a reasonable chance now that the 46th President of the United States is not Biden, but Pence.
Betting?
Nope the terms are quite clear, he'd be the acting President.
The only way he becomes the next President before the 20th is if Trump dies or resigns (or is impeached and convicted but I don't think there's time for that.)
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
So if this is a coup, whats Trumps next move? It’s hard to see where this can go beyond creating a mess and delaying the certification a day or two.
That is my view too. It's not like they can get rid of the President and install their man! And they can't even do anything about the changeover happening really. Effectively all they can do is urinate on the soft furnishings and be arrested. Hopefully the minimum of violence takes place before that happens.
The usual Trump late get-out, to create ambiguity and denial room. He will have known he's done enough to create real alarm and raise real questions about who's in charge.
And dragging the rest of the GOP into it (though they have it coming frankly) by directly assosciting the rioters with them - WE are the party of etc etc.
Someone on C-Span pointing out that the last time the Capitol came under attack was 1812 from the British.....
In 1932 Herbert Hoover set the US Army against the Bonus Army demonstrators, claiming self-defense. Which was just one more nail in his political coffin.
Of course the Bonus Army were PEACEFUL protesters, who had served as "Doughboys" in World War One.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
Clearly the more astute section of what remains in the White House are shitting bricks time, which is why Trumpsky has issued this typically lying tweet.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Trump really has played this whole post November thing appallingly. He threw away the Senate so any post-Presidency leverage he had was over something much less worth having leverage over, and now he is marginalising himself in his own party and emboldening GOP people who want to draw a very firm line under his time. This is all on him.
It is tragic. Difficult to see how America pulls back from this brink, but it must. Obvs.
Again one turns to Yeats' The Second Coming. Written in the immediate aftermath of Spanish Flu
Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.
Oh FFS. What sentimentalist softhead tripe.
It's Trump. He needs stopping and he will be.
Overreach. My prediction that he is over has become a certainty.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
You sound like Carole Cadwalladr. Next you'll be saying that Donald Tusk had a point about Western civilisation.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Bullshit, you pseudonymous little coward. This wasn't caused by BLM or culture war from the left, this is caused by Trump, Cruz, Hawley, Fox News and.the right wing. This is no time for whataboutery, this is a clear.and obvious coup attempt
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
Trump really has played this whole post November thing appallingly. He threw away the Senate so any post-Presidency leverage he had was over something much less worth having leverage over, and now he is marginalising himself in his own party and emboldening GOP people who want to draw a very firm line under his time. This is all on him.
Actually I thought a blown senate was great for Trump. He gets to say, back me or I'll fuck it up for you in 2022 like I screwed you now. Workshop at the altar of Trump.
If he had accepted defeat in good grace he could have won again in 2024, but he clearly cannot think/act rationally.
The phone call transcript was scary, before I assumed it was all a front to impress his hardcore supporters but he genuinely seems to believe all the crazy things he says.
For those of us reading history and wondering what it must have been like in 1930s to watch from a distance the most cultured and developed country in europe descend into fascism, I reckon we are getting a taste.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
So far there is no sign of revolting men in uniform in Washington. Though it has made me think of that failed golpe d'estado in Spain in Feb 1981. It was riveting viewing at the time, and I hadn't forgotten it.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
Utterly shameful scenes . The Trump enablers own this . And what pathetic security . Congress has lots of time to certify the results and this won’t stop Biden .
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Bullshit, you pseudonymous little coward. This wasn't caused by BLM or culture war from the left, this is caused by Trump, Cruz, Hawley, Fox News and.the right wing. This is no time for whataboutery, this is a clear.and obvious coup attempt
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Bullshit, you pseudonymous little coward. This wasn't caused by BLM or culture war from the left, this is caused by Trump, Cruz, Hawley, Fox News and.the right wing. This is no time for whataboutery, this is a clear.and obvious coup attempt
Pseudonymous? You must be new here. Oh yes, you are
Utterly shameful scenes . The Trump enablers own this . And what pathetic security . Congress has lots of time to certify the results and this won’t stop Biden .
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
You need to remember Biden won the election fair and square - 306 EVs to 232. Trump doesn't seem to know how to count!
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Trump may regret his move to Florida from New York. In Florida the death penalty is the electric chair or lethal injection. New York does not have the death penalty.
For those of us reading history and wondering what it must have been like in 1930s to watch from a distance the most cultured and developed country in europe descend into fascism, I reckon we are getting a taste.
Germany descended into Nazism because Von Papen and a small cadre of the German elite thought they were clever and believed they could control Hitler. If it wasn't for their actions, Hitler would never have become Chancellor.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.
What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
I'm happy to hear what you have to say and I'm happy to tell you what I think of you.
For those of us reading history and wondering what it must have been like in 1930s to watch from a distance the most cultured and developed country in europe descend into fascism, I reckon we are getting a taste.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.
To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.
Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.
That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
Trump may regret his move to Florida from New York. In Florida the death penalty is the electric chair or lethal injection. New York does not have the death penalty.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
Your life expectancy would be a lot shorter without free speech.
What sort of keystone cops operation have they got in the states? I thought it was pretty awful that we lost a police officer outside the Palace of Westminster (he should have been armed). But this mob just walked straight in.
Trump really has played this whole post November thing appallingly. He threw away the Senate so any post-Presidency leverage he had was over something much less worth having leverage over, and now he is marginalising himself in his own party and emboldening GOP people who want to draw a very firm line under his time. This is all on him.
For those of us reading history and wondering what it must have been like in 1930s to watch from a distance the most cultured and developed country in europe descend into fascism, I reckon we are getting a taste.
Cultured and developed?
The US?
REALLY??!!!
Arthur Miller is a great playwright. And there's Woody Allen. And someone mentioned the Grateful Dead earlier.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
This is a coup attempt. It won't succeed, but if the Republican party does not want to bear forever the stain of attempting to overthrow the republic, they now have two choices: Either Pence and the Cabinet 25ths Trump now, or as soon as the Electoral Vote count is done, Congress impeaches and removes him.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
You sound like Carole Cadwalladr. Next you'll be saying that Donald Tusk had a point about Western civilisation.
Hmm. No. She's a moonbat.
We have evidence of Russian and Chinese action on this already both in the US (they will be fuelling both Antifa and the radical wing of BLM *and* the extreme Trumpers) and we had the parliamentary select committee report in the UK here a couple of months ago saying the same about Russia.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.
What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
Racism? Oh, I'm sorry, I mustn't call you a racist, as I can't indulge my right to Free Speech
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
Your life expectancy would be a lot shorter without free speech.
Of course we must uphold free speech, but free speech never included downright lying. We must find a way to stop the latter so we can keep the former.
This is a coup attempt. It won't succeed, but if the Republican party does not want to bear forever the stain of attempting to overthrow the republic, they now have two choices: Either Pence and the Cabinet 25ths Trump now, or as soon as the Electoral Vote count is done, Congress impeaches and removes him.
Do you not think they will take the third choice? Disavow the actions but say it does not represent the Republican Party, and also that the rioters are understandbly angry even though their actions are wrong?
You're on the ground more than me, but from american media generally I know which looks more likely.
Trump may regret his move to Florida from New York. In Florida the death penalty is the electric chair or lethal injection. New York does not have the death penalty.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
Stop working so hard to miss the point.
It's Trump.
Yes, Trump's the immediate trigger. We all know that. We all agree.
And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?
That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The huge decent middle of America needs to take back control from the extremes at both ends.
For that, it needs politicans who see the benefit of working the middle rather than the ends.
Comments
Pence only becomes 46 if Trump dies or resigns in the next fortnight.
The only way he becomes the next President before the 20th is if Trump dies or resigns (or is impeached and convicted but I don't think there's time for that.)
Of course the Bonus Army were PEACEFUL protesters, who had served as "Doughboys" in World War One.
2021.....hold my beer!
Shitting it.
It's Trump. He needs stopping and he will be.
Overreach. My prediction that he is over has become a certainty.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
How'd that turn out.
This is no time for whataboutery, this is a clear.and obvious coup attempt
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
The phone call transcript was scary, before I assumed it was all a front to impress his hardcore supporters but he genuinely seems to believe all the crazy things he says.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/picture/2014/mar/26/23f-coup-spain-photography
If I were in that protest, I’d be getting my selfie and then making myself scarce
As for Trump he needs to just FOAD !
Said apologists for attempted coups...
Memo to Sadiq Khan?
So in DC - they wouldn't be the biggest MAGA fans out there.
What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
Are you not enlightened?
So much for listening to the elite.
The US?
REALLY??!!!
To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.
Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.
That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
Hmmmm
https://twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/1323559228435550209
AndyJS is one of the politest and most reasoned posters on here, and we all know what @kinabalu was getting out with his post.
Only upside.
https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status/1346913549898149888?s=20
It's Trump.
We have evidence of Russian and Chinese action on this already both in the US (they will be fuelling both Antifa and the radical wing of BLM *and* the extreme Trumpers) and we had the parliamentary select committee report in the UK here a couple of months ago saying the same about Russia.
I deal in facts. Not conspiracy theories.
America's Minute-Cybermen....
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
You're on the ground more than me, but from american media generally I know which looks more likely.
And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?
That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
For that, it needs politicans who see the benefit of working the middle rather than the ends.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1276205906338824192