Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.
It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.
Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.
What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.
If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.
If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.
Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
FFS - it's even more simple than that. The LIbDems offered people a choice to change their minds, they rejected it. No comparison at all.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.
Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.
Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
No, it is whataboutery.
And by the way, I have not accused you or any other PB poster of being a racist. I am careful not to do so.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
You can have this debate once these loons are ejected and the elected government is in situ.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.
What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
Racism? Oh, I'm sorry, I mustn't call you a racist, as I can't indulge my right to Free Speech
What have I said that's racist, Sunil?
BLM have NEVER attempted a coup, unless I'm very much mistaken.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The problem is that the US is not a 50-50 nation. The 50 Democratic Senators collectivley have won 45 million more votes than the 50 Republican Senators. Clinton won over 3 million votes more than Trump and Biden has won with a margin of over 6 million votes and his clear victory is still being disputed. The GOP has benefited from being the rural party to an extent that is undemocratic, yet despite all of this, the far right are currently attempting to stage a coup.
The backlash is going to be very stern indeed.
You seem to be sanguine about a backlash to the backlash?
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Just make Lincoln president until Biden is inaugurated, he'd do a better job.
Lincoln who ran a civil war which killed over half a million Americans?
The point was Lincoln as he is now - deceased - would be doing less damage.
Not eligible though as he was elected twice.
I wonder if the grandfathering clause in the 22nd amendment could be held to apply to him as well.
Not that it mattered, as the only living former president at the time it was enacted was Hoover, who had served only one term and would very clearly never serve another.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.
We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.
If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
Colston was a scumbag who profited from the greatest crime in human history. His statue should have been torn down decades ago. To claim some kind of moral equivalence between that and the violent assault on US democracy we're seeing tonight is grotesque.
All this talk about the 25th Amendment is poppycock.
What is needed NOW is
A. Congress to resume certifying the Electoral Vote, this time with adequate defense against mob attack. > let Cruz & Co go through their charade, let them spend hours at it, let them dig their own political graves > sit it out then certify the election of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, then keep lid on things until
B. Inaugurate Joe Biden & Kamala Harris with minimum of fuss & mess
Indeed. Rise above. Hopefully he will face legal consequences for oh so many things later.
If you were able to pull just one finger out of your prepubescent arse you'll notice that both me and @MarqueeMark made that same point several hours ago.
You acknowledged that white privilege does exist? Cool. We're making progress.
We both said that the protestors would have been treated differently if they were black.
You know my views on the phrase "white privilege".
Oh, and having a three-month transition of power. Not a great idea...
It used to be five months!
US presidential transition period was NOT a problem UNTIL we elected our first Nazi president.
OK, was maybe a BIT of a problem in 1860, when the gap between November election and March inauguration was period of danger drift toward Civil War.
Also problematic in 1932, when the US economy was hitting close to rock bottom, and Herbert Hoover kept pressuring Franklin Roosevelt to endorse the outgoing administrations (already failed) policies; which in fact is why inauguration date was moved up from March to January.
THIS time, the crisis is NOT slavery, or depression, or even Black Lives Matter - it is DONALD TRUMP.
These guys posing for and posting pics of themselves in the chamber and pelosi’s office and the like are going to have plenty of time to repent at leisure
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.
We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.
If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
I certainly judge your posts, and am keen that others do so too. Equally I have not even mentioned race, so if you have a guilty conscience, well that is a good sign of repentance.
Trump is busted - yes, this is nasty, dangerous, lives could be lostt, but it is not ultimately going to be an unsolvable problem. And in many ways, ithis will lead quickly to resolution of the immediate problem.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.
What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
I think we all know the answer to that, no need to spell it out.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.
Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.
Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.
To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.
Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.
That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.
You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).
All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.
I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
No, there really are not "two sides to this".
That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.
You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
Agreed, this looks like a coup, ableit an ill-organised and not very effective one. But what about the past four years when we had claims from the top of the Democrat party that Trump was not legitimately elected, was a Russian stooge who liked wet showers and where they looked to impeach him.
Was that not an attempted coup or it was ok because nobody likes Trump anyway?
The attempted impeachment was by democratic means. No one stormed Congress or the Whitehouse. The two are not comparable, except for coup apologists.
Yes, just like the story in a Very British Coup. All done in a nice way, respecting the formalities. But still a coup.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.
Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.
Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
I don't think people are sanguin about the scale of the challenge, certainly after today.
No, dealing with Trump will not solve things completely. But is is a damn good start.
As for whether he should be locked up, it really looks to a layman as though has committed many crimes, but that will be a matter for the courts, not political consideration of the impact of doing so.
The problem is that the US is not a 50-50 nation. The 50 Democratic Senators collectivley have won 45 million more votes than the 50 Republican Senators.
It is not a problem. It is performing exactly as it was created by the Founding Fathers - as the Senate providing checks and balances between the larger and much smaller states - and House of Representatives working on the basis of vote equality.
Your lack of understandig in cranking this up does not help.
Surely it's time for Congress to discuss the 25th amendment.
It's for the cabinet.
Anything Congress can do then? Impeach and remove him from power?
Yes, it'd be feasible for the House to convene and pass (by a simple majority) articles of impeachment in short order, putting the ball into the Senate's court. There would have to be a formal trial of impeachment in the Senate, and it would a require 2/3 majority of the Senators present. Whether enough Republicans will have been appalled enough by this to vote for conviction, or at least find a pressing need to review their stamp collections at home instead, is another matter. Probably not right now, but who knows what will happen over the next few days.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.
To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.
Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.
That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.
You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).
All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.
I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
No, there really are not "two sides to this".
That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.
You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
I'm on the side of democracy. Unequivocally.
That doesn't mean we can't discuss the broader political and culture schisms in America at the same time. We have ample evidence for it now.
More likely playing the Scottish version of the mouth harp, and publicising it very loudly, to cover over any google hits for Bojo + Trump. As with the model buses and the Brexit bus.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.
We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.
If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
Before mobile phones became ubiquitous the phone box in my parents' tiny village was repeatedly vandalised. That caused significantly more distress and inconvenience than the vandalism against Coulston's statue caused anyone.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
There were good people on both sides...
Said apologists for attempted coups...
Except I haven't apologised for it.
Making excuses for them is apologism and collusion.
Nonsense. I haven't made excuses for them and nor am I colluding.
You need to cool your posts down. You crossed a line with your Blackshirts one.
Another one like that and I'll be contacting the editors privately about you.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
I disagree, if it's a threat to life.
You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.
My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.
I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.
To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.
Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.
That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.
You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).
All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.
I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
No, there really are not "two sides to this".
That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.
You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
I'm on the side of democracy. Unequivocally.
That doesn't mean we can't discuss the broader political and culture schisms in America at the same time. We have ample evidence for it now.
That's exactly the point @Casino_Royale. Well done to you for putting your head above the parapet.
The problem is that the US is not a 50-50 nation. The 50 Democratic Senators collectivley have won 45 million more votes than the 50 Republican Senators.
It is not a problem. It is performing exactly as it was created by the Founding Fathers - as the Senate providing checks and balances between the larger and much smaller states - and House of Representatives working on the basis of vote equality.
Your lack of understandig in cranking this up does not help.
Agreed, I wish people would stop wittering on about how un-representative the Senate is. Yes, it is, but that is literally the only part of the US Constitution that cannot be amended. It is theoretically possible for the 2/3 of the Congress and 3/4 of the states to delete the "republican form of government" clause and invite the House of Windsor back. Changing the composition of the Senate is not.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.
We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.
If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
Aren't you a member of the Free Speech Union? Apologies if not.
Surely it's time for Congress to discuss the 25th amendment.
It's for the cabinet.
Anything Congress can do then? Impeach and remove him from power?
Yes, it'd be feasible for the House to convene and pass (by a simple majority) articles of impeachment in short order, putting the ball into the Senate's court. There would have to be a formal trial of impeachment in the Senate, and it would a require 2/3 majority of the Senators present. Whether enough Republicans will have been appalled enough by this to vote for conviction, or at least find a pressing need to review their stamp collections at home instead, is another matter. Probably not right now, but who knows what will happen over the next few days.
Trump out before end of term is now down to 12 on BF.
"Full list of rebels 12 Conservative MPs rebelled to oppose the lockdown regulations:
Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West Philip Davies (Shipley) Richard Drax (South Dorset) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) Esther McVey (Tatton) Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) Andrew Rosindell (Romford) Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) Robert Syms (Poole) Charles Walker (Broxbourne) David Warburton (Somerton and Frome)
4 DUP MPs also voted against the lockdown:
Paul Girvan (South Antrim) Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) Ian Paisley (North Antrim) Sammy Wilson (East Antrim)
Two Tory MPs acted as tellers for the noes - Christopher Chope (Christchurch) and Chris Green (Bolton West)"
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.
And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.
I mean, what the fuck?
What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.
What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
I'm happy to hear what you have to say and I'm happy to tell you what I think of you.
I see - you have nothing to offer but insinuation and innuendo.
Don't reply to any more of my posts.
Aren't you a member of the Free Speech Union?
I am. That doesn't mean I want to engage in dialogue with a troll.
Oh, not more 'too slow to respond' nonsense. We got that when Biden was elected and it was silly then and is silly now.
The only people who seem to care about this is journalists, who spend way too much time on twitter for their own good.....twitter is to journalists, what the crackberry was to the business-man back in the day.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
Stop working so hard to miss the point.
It's Trump.
Yes, Trump's the immediate trigger. We all know that. We all agree.
And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?
That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
Hurrah for the Blackshirts say the fellow travellers.
Oh, calm yourself, you big girl's blouse.
It's also worth remembering that societies born of revolution are ALWAYS more violent, thereafter, than countries that "peacefully" evolve.
France and America are both formed by Revolutions that gave them their birth. In France, they have the gilets jaune, and a long history of quite violent opposition to, and suspicion of, government. Their national day is Bastille Day, when they literally celebrate the violent, bloody overthrowing of the government. This infuses their DNA. It explains much of the French political character and their tendency to very extravagant protest.
In America they have July 4, the Tea Party, the Minutemen, and a Constitution which arms the people so they can resist an overweening government: again, it is in their DNA.
In contrast we have countries like Japan or the UK which have evolved more gently - even if they have been very violent towards other countries, in defence or attac -, they generally expect their political elite to respond to their desires without the need for insurrection, and the need for an armed populace is absent.
One history is not necessarily better than the other. The USA and France are both very rich, successful countries. They are just different to others.
Again, for the hard of hearing, I am not exonerating these cretins at the Capitol. But it does serve us well to observe the historical context.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.
Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.
Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
I don't think people are sanguin about the scale of the challenge, certainly after today.
No, dealing with Trump will not solve things completely. But is is a damn good start.
As for whether he should be locked up, it really looks to a layman as though has committed many crimes, but that will be a matter for the courts, not political consideration of the impact of doing so.
Unfortunately, I think many are sanguine about this or, worse, see these people as second class citizens whose views should be ignored and disdained. You only have to look on this site for evidence of this.
Locking him up is irrelevant in one way. Someone else will come along and pick up the baton. The thing is they are likely to learn the lessons from Trump's Presidency and be a lot smarter.
Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.
It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.
Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.
What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.
If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.
If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.
Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
FFS - it's even more simple than that. The LIbDems offered people a choice to change their minds, they rejected it. No comparison at all.
There’s plenty to say about the staggering scenes coming out of the US. We have seen their Parliament stormed and trashed by armed protestors, and we as good as saw an innocent woman shot before our eyes. You might comment on the implications for Trump personally, for the Republican Party, for American politics, even for democracy and America’s standing around the world. You might search for betting opportunities or speculate on how it might affect the markets.
There is every chance that some future generation of American school-kids might one day be writing exam essays about it.
We can be reasonably confident that when the history books come to be written, no-one is going to be drawing a parallel with Jo Swinson’s election campaign.
Our resident fool has simply demonstrated why he is so regarded.
Oh, and having a three-month transition of power. Not a great idea...
It used to be five months!
US presidential transition period was NOT a problem UNTIL we elected our first Nazi president.
OK, was maybe a BIT of a problem in 1860, when the gap between November election and March inauguration was period of danger drift toward Civil War.
Also problematic in 1932, when the US economy was hitting close to rock bottom, and Herbert Hoover kept pressuring Franklin Roosevelt to endorse the outgoing administrations (already failed) policies; which in fact is why inauguration date was moved up from March to January.
THIS time, the crisis is NOT slavery, or depression, or even Black Lives Matter - it is DONALD TRUMP.
Err 1876 and the end of Reconstruction say hello.
That deal was done during the transition.
HOWEVER, the length of the transition had ZERO to do with the fact that the 1876 presidential election was VERY close. Nor with the fact that the results were tainted by electoral skullduggery on BOTH sides.
Unless you have some facts to cite showing that the transition period WAS the culprit?
You seem to be suggesting that a transition period MUST be a bad thing, because sometimes bad things happen during transitions.
I know you like seeing the rascals voted out (or in) and the loser immediately turfed out. But that is actually NOT the way the British system works ALL THE TIME. Study your history.
We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.
Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder
We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.
I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
Stop working so hard to miss the point.
It's Trump.
Yes, Trump's the immediate trigger. We all know that. We all agree.
And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?
That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
He is not the trigger. After carefully loading the gun he has PULLED the trigger.
That is the story. That is what's happening.
It's time for clear unambiguous condemnation of a monstrous individual not pseudo deep wankery about "cultural malaise" and "it's complex".
It isn't complex. This isn't complex.
I've already said he's crossed a line and should be prosecuted.
You just can't handle broader analysis of the schisms in America at the same time and can't see how both sides are up to their necks in it.
Your post (upthread) suggesting the police should do a George Floyd on the protestors is ample evidence.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.
Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.
Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
I don't think people are sanguin about the scale of the challenge, certainly after today.
No, dealing with Trump will not solve things completely. But is is a damn good start.
As for whether he should be locked up, it really looks to a layman as though has committed many crimes, but that will be a matter for the courts, not political consideration of the impact of doing so.
Unfortunately, I think many are sanguine about this or, worse, see these people as second class citizens whose views should be ignored and disdained. You only have to look on this site for evidence of this.
Locking him up is irrelevant in one way. Someone else will come along and pick up the baton. The thing is they are likely to learn the lessons from Trump's Presidency and be a lot smarter.
What is needed is a change in the way western democracy works.
Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.
It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.
Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.
What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.
If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.
If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.
Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
FFS - it's even more simple than that. The LIbDems offered people a choice to change their minds, they rejected it. No comparison at all.
There’s plenty to say about the staggering scenes coming out of the US. We have seen their Parliament stormed and trashed by armed protestors, and we as good as saw an innocent woman shot before our eyes. You might comment on the implications for Trump personally, for the Republican Party, for American politics, even for democracy and America’s standing around the world. You might search for betting opportunities or speculate on how it might affect the markets.
There is every chance that some future generation of American school-kids might one day be writing exam essays about it.
We can be reasonably confident that when the history books come to be written, no-one is going to be drawing a parallel with Jo Swinson’s election campaign.
Our resident fool has simply demonstrated why he is so regarded.
I don't get it - from what I can tell you're agreeing with me. I think calling me the "resident fool" a bit harsh in those circumstances.
Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.
It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.
Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.
What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.
If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.
If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.
Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
Jesus, man. People go on about Remainers being obsessed with Brexit, but while people are literally storming the Capitol, trying to install a dictator, and driving the US Senate and Congress to run in fear, you’re wittering on about trying to make it all about Brexit and how the side you didn’t like are exactly the same as this.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.
We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.
If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
Before mobile phones became ubiquitous the phone box in my parents' tiny village was repeatedly vandalised. That caused significantly more distress and inconvenience than the vandalism against Coulston's statue caused anyone.
Yet the guy who was doing it all probably thinks he has graduated to the big league.
I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.
Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
Spot on.
The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.
The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.
It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
No, it is whataboutery.
And by the way, I have not accused you or any other PB poster of being a racist. I am careful not to do so.
Um. You drew a direct equivalence between me and the Blackshirts.
If you are happy to withdraw this I would graciously accept your apology.
Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.
These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.
The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.
Both sides are a disgrace.
Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.
Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?
That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.
You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.
I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.
I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.
People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.
I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.
Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.
Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
He's definitely fuelled it but what people on here forget a lot is that Trump is not the cause of this, he is the vehicle of the frustration. If you are happy with life, you don't go across the country for a protest to storm Congress. These people feel like normal politicians disdain them, ignore them, treat them as racist homophobic hicks and that Trump was the first politician who listened to their views. This is not going away with Trump. The idea you lock him up and then it all goes back to normal is pure fantasy.
They should try being less racist. Then people wouldn't treat them like they are racists.
Comments
And by the way, I have not accused you or any other PB poster of being a racist. I am careful not to do so.
Until then there are more important matters.
Do you not see where this will end?
It's fake math.
Is that true?
Not that it mattered, as the only living former president at the time it was enacted was Hoover, who had served only one term and would very clearly never serve another.
You know my views on the phrase "white privilege".
Trump is busted - yes, this is nasty, dangerous, lives could be lostt, but it is not ultimately going to be an unsolvable problem. And in many ways, ithis will lead quickly to resolution of the immediate problem.
Sensible protestors might decide this is the time to exit.
https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1346923961507057664?s=20
Anyway, is this what you meant by democratic?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z0iuWh3sek
No, dealing with Trump will not solve things completely. But is is a damn good start.
As for whether he should be locked up, it really looks to a layman as though has committed many crimes, but that will be a matter for the courts, not political consideration of the impact of doing so.
Your lack of understandig in cranking this up does not help.
That doesn't mean we can't discuss the broader political and culture schisms in America at the same time. We have ample evidence for it now.
Reports of another device at Dem HQ
I’m sure that hundred bucks would make all the difference to the US national debt.
You need to cool your posts down. You crossed a line with your Blackshirts one.
Another one like that and I'll be contacting the editors privately about you.
Invoking the 25th is Pence's patriotic duty. A patriot puts his country first.
"Full list of rebels
12 Conservative MPs rebelled to oppose the lockdown regulations:
Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West
Philip Davies (Shipley)
Richard Drax (South Dorset)
Karl McCartney (Lincoln)
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage)
Esther McVey (Tatton)
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot)
Andrew Rosindell (Romford)
Desmond Swayne (New Forest West)
Robert Syms (Poole)
Charles Walker (Broxbourne)
David Warburton (Somerton and Frome)
4 DUP MPs also voted against the lockdown:
Paul Girvan (South Antrim)
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann)
Ian Paisley (North Antrim)
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim)
Two Tory MPs acted as tellers for the noes - Christopher Chope (Christchurch) and Chris Green (Bolton West)"
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/12-tory-mps-who-voted-23273152
It's also worth remembering that societies born of revolution are ALWAYS more violent, thereafter, than countries that "peacefully" evolve.
France and America are both formed by Revolutions that gave them their birth. In France, they have the gilets jaune, and a long history of quite violent opposition to, and suspicion of, government. Their national day is Bastille Day, when they literally celebrate the violent, bloody overthrowing of the government. This infuses their DNA. It explains much of the French political character and their tendency to very extravagant protest.
In America they have July 4, the Tea Party, the Minutemen, and a Constitution which arms the people so they can resist an overweening government: again, it is in their DNA.
In contrast we have countries like Japan or the UK which have evolved more gently - even if they have been very violent towards other countries, in defence or attac -, they generally expect their political elite to respond to their desires without the need for insurrection, and the need for an armed populace is absent.
One history is not necessarily better than the other. The USA and France are both very rich, successful countries. They are just different to others.
Again, for the hard of hearing, I am not exonerating these cretins at the Capitol. But it does serve us well to observe the historical context.
Locking him up is irrelevant in one way. Someone else will come along and pick up the baton. The thing is they are likely to learn the lessons from Trump's Presidency and be a lot smarter.
There is every chance that some future generation of American school-kids might one day be writing exam essays about it.
We can be reasonably confident that when the history books come to be written, no-one is going to be drawing a parallel with Jo Swinson’s election campaign.
Our resident fool has simply demonstrated why he is so regarded.
He should in a sane world, but...
HOWEVER, the length of the transition had ZERO to do with the fact that the 1876 presidential election was VERY close. Nor with the fact that the results were tainted by electoral skullduggery on BOTH sides.
Unless you have some facts to cite showing that the transition period WAS the culprit?
You seem to be suggesting that a transition period MUST be a bad thing, because sometimes bad things happen during transitions.
I know you like seeing the rascals voted out (or in) and the loser immediately turfed out. But that is actually NOT the way the British system works ALL THE TIME. Study your history.
Borders?
You just can't handle broader analysis of the schisms in America at the same time and can't see how both sides are up to their necks in it.
Your post (upthread) suggesting the police should do a George Floyd on the protestors is ample evidence.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?507663-1/joint-session-congress-counting-electoral-college-ballots
Step away from the keyboard for a while.
If you are happy to withdraw this I would graciously accept your apology.