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Dramatic scenes in Washington as Trump supporters try to stop Congress approving Biden’s victory – p

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  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't the police kneel on some (red) necks?

    Why do you say such a stupid thing?
    Not as stupid as when you said last summer that Covid would burn itself out.

    How'd that turn out.
    I'd put incitement to murder as more of a stupid thing to say than express hope a disease burns out, but each to their own
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    This whole day is pure Trump, at the last.

    Work up his supporters into a frenzy, but not too explicitly. Wait to create real fear and disruption, to demonstate his power.

    Attempt to pull back later on to create menacing ambiguity, just as his strikingly late defence department pick may or may not be holding up crucial National Guard reinforcements, and somewhat calling into question the whole stability of the system.

    Trolling is often seen as a relatively mild modern word, but here it's like a sort of ambiguous, mass provocation and bullying. He really is a very dark soul.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    The us president is called the leader of the free world. Not tonight. That role lies elsewhere in London and Paris. Will the UNSC condemn this?

    Speaking of which has Boris condemned this yet?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    If you were able to pull just one finger out of your prepubescent arse you'll notice that both me and @MarqueeMark made that same point several hours ago.
  • isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't the police kneel on some (red) necks?

    Why do you say such a stupid thing?
    Not as stupid as when you said last summer that Covid would burn itself out.

    How'd that turn out.
    I'd put incitement to murder as more of a stupid thing to say than express hope a disease burns out, but each to their own
    Evening, I am shocked you disagree with me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    Andy_JS said:

    What are the defund the police supporters saying now? Have they changed their mind?

    Defund the police is a stupid slogan. Concerns about ability of the police may well intensify as a result of this.
  • Alistair said:

    Trump really has played this whole post November thing appallingly. He threw away the Senate so any post-Presidency leverage he had was over something much less worth having leverage over, and now he is marginalising himself in his own party and emboldening GOP people who want to draw a very firm line under his time. This is all on him.

    Actually I thought a blown senate was great for Trump. He gets to say, back me or I'll fuck it up for you in 2022 like I screwed you now. Workshop at the altar of Trump.
    I think you're very wrong. Trump is really reliant on continuing to make the political weather over the next four years. He can only do that if the GOP remains powerful. Otherwise he spends at least two and very possibly four years with people shrugging and saying "Okay Karen". Meanwhile he grows older, he has legal problems, and he's not really in the debate. When power drains away, it really drains away.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    This whole day is pure Trump, at the last.

    Work up his supporters into a frenzy, but not too explicitly. Wait to create real fear and disruption, to demonstate his power.

    Attempt to pull back later on to create menacing ambiguity, just as his defence department pick may or may not be holding up crucial National Guard reinforcements.

    Trolling is often seen as a relatively mild modern word, but it's a form of lethal mass "trolling" and provocation. He really is a very dark soul.

    Steve Bannon (after being thrown out) said the Trump presidency would end very very badly.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Mmm. The provocation of certifying the election results.

    FFS. C'mon.

    This is Trump. Don't cloud the waters with "context" and "balance".
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    ydoethur said:

    slade said:

    Trump may regret his move to Florida from New York. In Florida the death penalty is the electric chair or lethal injection. New York does not have the death penalty.

    That will give him a nasty shock.
    Can we volt on that?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    If you were able to pull just one finger out of your prepubescent arse you'll notice that both me and @MarqueeMark made that same point several hours ago.
    You acknowledged that white privilege does exist?
    Cool. We're making progress.
  • The only possible upside is that this has to be the end. Even the cowardly GOPers have shat it now, on one will defend Trump.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    That does work both ways, of course.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.

    Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder

    We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.

    I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
    Stop working so hard to miss the point.

    It's Trump.
    Its Trump and Satans little helpers in the GOP.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cruz or Pence or McConnell could buy a place in history by being the one to go live on air now and condemn this. Why aren't they?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    For those of us reading history and wondering what it must have been like in 1930s to watch from a distance the most cultured and developed country in europe descend into fascism, I reckon we are getting a taste.

    Cultured and developed?

    The US?

    REALLY??!!!
    Arthur Miller is a great playwright. And there's Woody Allen. And someone mentioned the Grateful Dead earlier.
    Arthur Miller is dead.

    Woody Allen is a creepy scumbag.

    The Grateful Dead disbanded 25 years ago.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    We will find out in 18 months time that Russia, China and Iran were fuelling this online and on the darkweb behind the scenes - possibly paying some of the key players off too.

    Of course. We in the west are being expertly manipulated by mainly Russian but some Chinese bots on social media, fomenting this disorder

    We need to regulate the internet. Sadly. Absolute free speech does not work in the age of social media, which can be faked and stoked.

    I say this with great regret. Free speech was the greatest achievement of the Enlightenment. But what is the alternative?
    Stop working so hard to miss the point.

    It's Trump.
    Yes, Trump's the immediate trigger. We all know that. We all agree.

    And? Do you not think there's a deeper cultural malaise here? The causes? The underlying fissures? The ructions?

    That's what we're exploring here. It's what we do on this site.
    Hurrah for the Blackshirts say the fellow travellers.
  • All this talk about the 25th Amendment is poppycock.

    What is needed NOW is

    A. Congress to resume certifying the Electoral Vote, this time with adequate defense against mob attack.
    > let Cruz & Co go through their charade, let them spend hours at it, let them dig their own political graves
    > sit it out then certify the election of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, then keep lid on things until

    B. Inaugurate Joe Biden & Kamala Harris with minimum of fuss & mess
  • Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    So what you're saying is that the UK left did everything they could via democratic processes to reverse a decision?
    And if they had suceeded, then the UK right would have taken action such as we're seeing now in washington?
    Yep, could be right there.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Cruz or Pence or McConnell could buy a place in history by being the one to go live on air now and condemn this. Why aren't they?

    Possibly locked down in the Capitol at the moment?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:
    So get on the fcking telly then and stop twatting about on twitter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Now there’s one man who was on the wrong end of a coup.

    And sadly, survived it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870

    kle4 said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Just make Lincoln president until Biden is inaugurated, he'd do a better job.
    Lincoln who ran a civil war which killed over half a million Americans?
    The point was Lincoln as he is now - deceased - would be doing less damage.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cruz or Pence or McConnell could buy a place in history by being the one to go live on air now and condemn this. Why aren't they?

    Possibly locked down in the Capitol at the moment?
    With a shedload of reporters...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    rpjs said:

    This is a coup attempt. It won't succeed, but if the Republican party does not want to bear forever the stain of attempting to overthrow the republic, they now have two choices: Either Pence and the Cabinet 25ths Trump now, or as soon as the Electoral Vote count is done, Congress impeaches and removes him.

    Trump leaving before of term down to 13.5 now.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021
    Exactly what I was expecting to happen in very short order. It's manna from heaven for Erdogan, Putin, the Chinese, and the whole gang.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    I always believed Trump was clinically insane.

    The absolute priority must be to remove him from the White House immediately. Peacefully if possible; if not by force.

    He is a dangerous, cornered man.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.

    To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.

    Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.

    That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
    A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.

    You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).

    All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.

    I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,123
    edited January 2021
    tlg86 said:

    What sort of keystone cops operation have they got in the states? I thought it was pretty awful that we lost a police officer outside the Palace of Westminster (he should have been armed). But this mob just walked straight in.

    That's a very different situation of onecextremely dangerous intruder (or perhaps a tiny handful - they didn't know). If you're underpowered against a large mob, you have to fall back. You don't defend a line that can't be defended without major bloodshed, so they did the only thing they could do.

    There's a huge question to be asked about why they were underpowered when this was so predictable, but it isn't the same as the Westminster Bridge attack at all.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    So, the darling of the UK hard right is now attempting a coup in the US
    https://twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1346897651451748353

    Don’t be silly, Joff.

    I despise the man, but no way is Gove responsible for this.

    Gove is not responsible. But he knew exactly what Trump was. He didn't care.

    People cosying up even to an odious politician cannot be expected to be able to foresee that that person will one day engage in what amounts to a coup, don't be absurd. The licence to criticise someone for cosying up to someone they can reasonable foresee will do awful political things does not extend that far, since virtually no one would think a stable democracy like the US might lead to this in 4 years.
    HYUFD said:
    It's a coordinated mob, urged on by an individual and tacitly (though not directly) supported by many many many members of Congress, storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out, and some of them are armed.

    It isn't close to a coup attempt, it is a coup attempt.
    Your moderating influence is normally pretty accurate, but it was never difficult to see a man who praised Putin, Kim, Xi, Duterte, Erdogan and criticised May, Merkel, Trudeau might be a fan of coups.
    This is exactly where the Trump presidency has been headed since day one and particularly since he lost the election but many chose to turn a blind eye. Hopefully those people get held to account
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So get on the fcking telly then and stop twatting about on twitter.
    Trump disowned Pence earlier.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Exactly what I was expecting to happen in very short order. It's manna from heaven for Erdogan, Putin, the Chinese, and the whole gang.
    Next they’ll be offering to send peacekeeping troops
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
    If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.

    What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
    I'm happy to hear what you have to say and I'm happy to tell you what I think of you. :)
    I see - you have nothing to offer but insinuation and innuendo.

    Don't reply to any more of my posts.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Surely it's time for Congress to discuss the 25th amendment.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    There were good people on both sides...

    Said apologists for attempted coups...
    Except I haven't apologised for it.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    DavidL said:

    This has to be the last day Trump spends as President. 25th amendment should be implemented today. Remove him.

    Yep. Anyone advocating "wait and see if cooler heads prevail" is taking one hell of a risk. Trump can do a lot of extremely dangerous stuff in the next two weeks if he's allowed to do so. Far better to end it now.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    IanB2 said:

    Exactly what I was expecting to happen in very short order. It's manna from heaven for Erdogan, Putin, the Chinese, and the whole gang.
    Next they’ll be offering to send peacekeeping troops
    along with the election observers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    So what you're saying is that the UK left did everything they could via democratic processes to reverse a decision?
    And if they had suceeded, then the UK right would have taken action such as we're seeing now in washington?
    Yep, could be right there.
    I'm saying: respect the vote. Respect democracy. Do not attempt to revoke clear democratic decisions. Trump is an insane asshole who is encouraging "Revoke". This is what happens.

    Extreme Remainers and Lib Dems are just Trumpites who buy too much Sumac and lack weaponry.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.

  • MaxPB said:

    Surely it's time for Congress to discuss the 25th amendment.

    It's for the cabinet.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Can't the police kneel on some (red) necks?

    Why do you say such a stupid thing?
    Not as stupid as when you said last summer that Covid would burn itself out.

    How'd that turn out.
    I'd put incitement to murder as more of a stupid thing to say than express hope a disease burns out, but each to their own
    Don't be a dick, Isam, or I'll do a post mocking Enoch.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    There were good people on both sides...

    Said apologists for attempted coups...
    Except I haven't apologised for it.
    Making excuses for them is apologism and collusion.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The problem is that the US is not a 50-50 nation. The 50 Democratic Senators collectivley have won 45 million more votes than the 50 Republican Senators. Clinton won over 3 million votes more than Trump and Biden has won with a margin of over 6 million votes and his clear victory is still being disputed. The GOP has benefited from being the rural party to an extent that is undemocratic, yet despite all of this, the far right are currently attempting to stage a coup.

    The backlash is going to be very stern indeed.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Jonathan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So get on the fcking telly then and stop twatting about on twitter.
    Trump disowned Pence earlier.
    And?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    So what you're saying is that the UK left did everything they could via democratic processes to reverse a decision?
    And if they had suceeded, then the UK right would have taken action such as we're seeing now in washington?
    Yep, could be right there.
    I'm saying: respect the vote. Respect democracy. Do not attempt to revoke clear democratic decisions. Trump is an insane asshole who is encouraging "Revoke". This is what happens.

    Extreme Remainers and Lib Dems are just Trumpites who buy too much Sumac and lack weaponry.
    What is Sumak? Isn't he that Chancellor chap?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.

    To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.

    Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.

    That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
    A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.

    You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).

    All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.

    I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
    No, there really are not "two sides to this".

    That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.

    You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
    Agreed, this looks like a coup, ableit an ill-organised and not very effective one. But what about the past four years when we had claims from the top of the Democrat party that Trump was not legitimately elected, was a Russian stooge who liked wet showers and where they looked to impeach him.

    Was that not an attempted coup or it was ok because nobody likes Trump anyway?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830


    I always believed Trump was clinically insane.

    The absolute priority must be to remove him from the White House immediately. Peacefully if possible; if not by force.

    He is a dangerous, cornered man.

    Creating a martyr...
  • Just imagine if Betfair hadn't settled already and was waiting for today's certification procedure to pay.

    They'd have probably voided the market.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Insanely the S&P is up 0.6%
  • tlg86 said:

    Oh, and having a three-month transition of power. Not a great idea...

    It used to be five months!
    US presidential transition period was NOT a problem UNTIL we elected our first Nazi president.

    OK, was maybe a BIT of a problem in 1860, when the gap between November election and March inauguration was period of danger drift toward Civil War.

    Also problematic in 1932, when the US economy was hitting close to rock bottom, and Herbert Hoover kept pressuring Franklin Roosevelt to endorse the outgoing administrations (already failed) policies; which in fact is why inauguration date was moved up from March to January.

    THIS time, the crisis is NOT slavery, or depression, or even Black Lives Matter - it is DONALD TRUMP.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I get your point @kle4 but @Casino_Royale also has a good point. Both sides have fuelled this for their own ends - Trump with this rhetoric and the Democrats claiming that Trump was an illegitimate President for the past 4 years.

    I also suspect that there might not be much sympathy for politicians fleeing the Capitol when many of those same politicians were perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to cities being torched and many small businesses being looted with the Police doing sweet FA
    The atmosphere of extremism may have been fuelled by both sides, but where I fundamentally disagree is the insinuation, therefore, that this very much not inevitable event can be suggested to be the fault of those other Trump and his cohorts.

    People are responsible for their own actions, and to a degree actions they incite and encourage. Any indirect factoring arising from leftish political escalation on other matters is pretty irrelevant to the very direct incitement and encourgement by Trump and co today, and feels like an unnecessary distraction.

    I don't think it should be controversial to suggest that even in a febrile atmosphere that many will have contibuted to, the focus should be on those directing and encouraging the ongoing criminal activity, and that such a focus does not mean an endorsement of past criminal acts by others.
    The thing is, now and for the past four years, both sides have sought the same thing, namely to nullify the results which had the other side winning. The way they have gone about that reflects where they have their strengths and where they feel comfortable. For the Democrats, it was constantly seeding exposes and stories in the NYT, WP and others about Putin getting Trump elected etc etc and then impeachment when they won the House. Sure, it's not an armed and crazy mob storming Congress but, while it may have been done digitally and in fine rhetoric, the aim was exactly the same as the protestors here are doing - delegitimise am elected President and force him out of office by whichever means possible, regardless of whether the claims were true or not.

    Even if that is so, as you point it out it is not an armed and crazy mob, they used/abused the processes set out under the law and constitution of the United States. Even the bullcrap lawsuits and Senator crap ahead of today can claim that distinction.

    Trump just pushed well past that. He is not stupid enough to not know what the results of telling people what he told them and telling them to do what he did could be. Nothing anyone else did before today, however poor that behaviour was in contributing to a denigration of the political culture of the United States, has a bearing on keeping the focus on the most significant cause of the escalation.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    What sort of keystone cops operation have they got in the states? I thought it was pretty awful that we lost a police officer outside the Palace of Westminster (he should have been armed). But this mob just walked straight in.

    That's a very different situation of onecextremely dangerous intruder (or perhaps a tiny handful - they didn't know). If you're underpowered against a large mob, you have to fall back. You don't defend a line that can't be defended without major bloodshed, so they did the only thing they could do.

    There's a huge question to be asked about why they were underpowered when this was so predictable, but it isn't the same as the Westminster Bridge attack at all.
    I wasn't making that comparison - just pointing out that we aren't perfect. There's no way a mob would get into either Downing Street or the Palace of Westminster.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
    If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.

    What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
    Racism? Oh, I'm sorry, I mustn't call you a racist, as I can't indulge my right to Free Speech :lol:
    What have I said that's racist, Sunil?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited January 2021

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    But look back to the Trump rallies in early 2016, and the intimidation of journalists and violence around the edges of them.

    That was all before BLM.
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 257
    Wow, certain poster showing their true colours this evening. Fingers crossed this is ended peacefully.
  • kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    What is wrong with you? Showing your true colours today.
    If you want an echo chamber you might find Twitter to your liking, where you can follow people who only say what you want to hear in the way you want to hear it.

    What "true colours" do you think I am showing?
    I'm happy to hear what you have to say and I'm happy to tell you what I think of you. :)
    I see - you have nothing to offer but insinuation and innuendo.

    Don't reply to any more of my posts.
    Aren't you a member of the Free Speech Union?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
    There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.

    Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    On the positive side IanB2 may have set the most likes for any post in PB history.
    Nicola, at least, would not encourage illegal actions I think.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    So what you're saying is that the UK left did everything they could via democratic processes to reverse a decision?
    And if they had suceeded, then the UK right would have taken action such as we're seeing now in washington?
    Yep, could be right there.
    I'm saying: respect the vote. Respect democracy. Do not attempt to revoke clear democratic decisions. Trump is an insane asshole who is encouraging "Revoke". This is what happens.

    Extreme Remainers and Lib Dems are just Trumpites who buy too much Sumac and lack weaponry.
    More charming delusion from the far right.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    CNN says the DC National Guard is being deployed. I've seen a claim that CSPAN reported that Congress will be reconvened at a secret location to complete the count.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Mmm. The provocation of certifying the election results.

    FFS. C'mon.

    This is Trump. Don't cloud the waters with "context" and "balance".
    What I mean is the crippling fear and distrust they have of the Democrats taking office again - which is the pyre that Trump added to and then burnt.

    Have you seen The Social Dilemma documentary on Netflix?

    This has been building for years.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    tlg86 said:

    Oh, and having a three-month transition of power. Not a great idea...

    It used to be five months!
    US presidential transition period was NOT a problem UNTIL we elected our first Nazi president.

    OK, was maybe a BIT of a problem in 1860, when the gap between November election and March inauguration was period of danger drift toward Civil War.

    Also problematic in 1932, when the US economy was hitting close to rock bottom, and Herbert Hoover kept pressuring Franklin Roosevelt to endorse the outgoing administrations (already failed) policies; which in fact is why inauguration date was moved up from March to January.

    THIS time, the crisis is NOT slavery, or depression, or even Black Lives Matter - it is DONALD TRUMP.
    It would have been quite a problem had Wilson lost in 1916, given the US joined the war on April 6th 1917.

    Although Wilson, who may have been naive but was not stupid, had privately decided to use the Presidential Succession Act to hand over power sooner if he lost,
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    But look back to the Trump rallies in early 2016, and the intimidation of journalists and violence around the edges of them.

    That was all before BLM.
    Yes, fair point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357


    I always believed Trump was clinically insane.

    The absolute priority must be to remove him from the White House immediately. Peacefully if possible; if not by force.

    He is a dangerous, cornered man.

    Worrying that Trump still has the nuclear football. The US state needs to come together to do something about that.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited January 2021
    MrEd said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Gaussian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Trump declares martial law by end of today?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/04/leave-military-out-of-it-former-defence-secretaries-tell-trump

    Turn out to have known what they were talking about. Bit of a worry that half the military votes Trump.
    Even more of a worry that half the country votes Trump.
    Indeed. And America is polarising FURTHER not less, and it is clearly polarising on racial lines.

    These disgraceful scenes are, to an extent, the payback for all the more extreme BLM marches pulling down statues of Lincoln etc.

    The cops should have stopped those riots, just as they have to stop this utter sadness
    Pelosi was saying only the other days that statues should be pulled out of the US Capitol, thus pouring fuel on the fire and fanning their deepest fears.

    Both sides are a disgrace.
    Even if that is so, things, particularly at this moment, are not equally disgraceful.

    Don't US cops have tasers, truncheons and mild tear gas?

    That would seem appropriate here. Not jumping straight to handguns and shooting.

    You'd think if they were good at anything it would be beating people up, but they seemed totally off guard.

    I'm thinking of Antifa and torching and burning several major US cities. Including property. Violence. Destruction. Looting. All in the name of SJ.

    And pulling down the statue of Lincoln - the guy who ended slavery.

    I mean, what the fuck?
    And I don't disagree with that. But those crimes, and storming the legislature to prevent the law being carried out on who becomes president, though both wrong, are not equal in significance. Even one being argued to lead to the other does not distract from one being a much more serious escalation.
    I disagree, if it's a threat to life.

    You're right that it's more politically and constitutionally significant - and sickening.

    My point is I have no time for one-sided partisan condemnation that doesn't acknowledge both sides are fuelling the extreme behaviour of the other.

    I do agree Trump should be prosecuted. He's crossed the line one too many times.
    Two sides can be at fault for a developing atmosphere without being equally at fault, particularly on a specific event which is still in the process of occurring.

    To focus on the wrong of one side in the recent past whilst a more politically and constitutionally significant escalation is occuring strikes me as a strange priority.

    Because despite it being wrong to ignore rioting and other crimes committed for a cause the other side might well have supported, tacitly or otherwise, today's outcome was nevertheless not an inevitable outcome and can only be laid at the feet of those who have done it, incited it, and encouraged it.

    That does not excuse the crimes of antifa and so on. But treating today as an inevitability from that I do not think is reasonable.
    A fair post. I wouldn't say it's inevitable and nor would I say they are responsible but I do think they're contributing to a polarised climate rather than rising above it to lead Americans of all backgrounds out of it.

    You've got two sides to this. The immediate pull (Trump, in all his odiousness) and the push (the broader culture war by the hard Left).

    All I'm saying is both need to be addressed..at the same time. I'm saying it because 80%+ of posters on here seem to be just highlighting the former and how outrageous it is.

    I agree with their concerns, but quite aside from that not being the full picture it's also a little boring.
    No, there really are not "two sides to this".

    That is mendacious bullshit. This is an attempted coup.

    You are either on the side of democracy, or not. Equivocation is collusion.
    Agreed, this looks like a coup, ableit an ill-organised and not very effective one. But what about the past four years when we had claims from the top of the Democrat party that Trump was not legitimately elected, was a Russian stooge who liked wet showers and where they looked to impeach him.

    Was that not an attempted coup or it was ok because nobody likes Trump anyway?
    No.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    All this talk about the 25th Amendment is poppycock.

    What is needed NOW is

    A. Congress to resume certifying the Electoral Vote, this time with adequate defense against mob attack.
    > let Cruz & Co go through their charade, let them spend hours at it, let them dig their own political graves
    > sit it out then certify the election of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, then keep lid on things until

    B. Inaugurate Joe Biden & Kamala Harris with minimum of fuss & mess

    Well said.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,870
    guybrush said:

    Wow, certain poster showing their true colours this evening.

    Yes, sorry about that, I just cannot help myself sometimes.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Just make Lincoln president until Biden is inaugurated, he'd do a better job.
    Lincoln who ran a civil war which killed over half a million Americans?
    The point was Lincoln as he is now - deceased - would be doing less damage.
    Not eligible though as he was elected twice.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Before we Brits get too smug, let us recall that over the last four years a large proportion of our political class, and millions of our fellow citizens, have done their very best to get the biggest vote in British history - 17.4m voting for Leave - to to be simply ignored. They wanted that vote to dismissed before it was ever enacted, and a new referendum imposed, to override that vote.

    It was a gentle attempt at a Very Quiet British Coup.

    Moreover, one of our major political parties, the Lib Dems, went even further, and demanded a simple "Revoke". Simply: Cancel Democracy. Ignore the entire 17.4 million stupid voters, tell them their vote means nothing so there is no point in voting for anything ever again. If we don't like the way you vote, we will make sure your vote means nothing.

    What we are witnessing now, tragically, in Washington, is a lesson for us here in Britain. Respect a vote. Respect the people. Respect democracy.

    If Brexit had been annulled, as so many wanted (even on this site) we might not have escaped these awful scenes.

    If Lib Dems had won an overall majority in 2019 it would have been, mathematically, because a huge number of the people who had voted for Brexit had changed their minds and were exercising democratic right to do so. There is no comparison.
    There really is a direct comparison. The only difference is that Brits don't carry guns and are - generally (cf Jo Cox RIP) - too polite/apathetic to experiment in political violence, and we don't have that terrible history of slavery which poisons everything with questions (often justified) of race.

    Brexit was a revolution, but it WAS democratic. The prime minister explicitly told us that Whatever we decided, Parliament would enact. This promise cannot be simply ignored. Nor can the choice of the people be glibly "Revoked". Doing so is not just immoral; it is dangerous. As we see.
    As I say, it would have been people democratically exercising a choice to change their mind. As it was people chose not to change their mind. So the comparison is facile. Indeen there is no comparison. I don't know why I am arguing with a troll. My Americal wife is almost in tears at the moment and I have better things to do.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,695

    this is crazy shit... us in the UK need to see this a warning right now.

    I bet Philip Thompson is feeling like a right [moderated] now when he thought the GOP/Trumpers were like Remainers.
    Yes.

    Remainers and whinging about the election is one thing, this is another level. This is an attempted coup, it is sedition. It is not in a whole different league now.
    Well said Philip.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    These guys posing for and posting pics of themselves in the chamber and pelosi’s office and the like are going to have plenty of time to repent at leisure
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    kle4 said:

    On the positive side IanB2 may have set the most likes for any post in PB history.

    Nicola, at least, would not encourage illegal actions I think.
    No.

    Some of the SNP’s supporters, however...Section 30, anyone?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    I hope that the GOP dies and the party of Lincoln comes back.

    Then tell BLM to stop tearing down statues of Lincoln. If you start a culture war, you get a culture war. This is the inevitable, awful, tragic outcome (I am not exonerating these morons in the Capitol, let alone the insane narcissist Trump)
    Spot on.

    The Foxification of the kind of the people who are in the Capitol at the moment started three decades ago. Parts, but not all of BLM, are implicated in the gradual, radical polarisation of US politics, that does span across the whole spectrum since the late 1980s and early 1990s, but that's not really it here.
    Tearing down statues of Lincoln and torching cities is insane. It strikes at the very core of the American story and identity.

    The thing is you have white liberals like @Foxy who apologise for this and suggest that any opposition to it is evidence of closet racism.

    It's that sort of madness that is fuelling the polarisation.
    Saying such nonsense at this time is a bit of a giveaway.., I think the right needs to pipe down a bit
    No it isn't. Saying anyone who disagrees with you - or has a different take - must be a racist is a sign of an idiot.

    We last had this on this site when a few of us objected to Edward Colston being hauled down by a mob. People get all worked up and throw around smears to anyone who doesn't get carried away with the moment, and echo what they want to be said.

    If you don't like my posts you can skip over them.
  • Is The Donald tuned into PB?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    Surely it's time for Congress to discuss the 25th amendment.

    It's for the cabinet.
    Anything Congress can do then? Impeach and remove him from power?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    kle4 said:

    rpjs said:

    This is a coup attempt. It won't succeed, but if the Republican party does not want to bear forever the stain of attempting to overthrow the republic, they now have two choices: Either Pence and the Cabinet 25ths Trump now, or as soon as the Electoral Vote count is done, Congress impeaches and removes him.

    Do you not think they will take the third choice? Disavow the actions but say it does not represent the Republican Party, and also that the rioters are understandbly angry even though their actions are wrong?

    You're on the ground more than me, but from american media generally I know which looks more likely.
    Sadly, you're probably correct. But there do seem to be a lot of Republicans who are genuinely horrified by this, so who knows?
This discussion has been closed.