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The loneliness of the long-distance leader – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 4 in General
imageThe loneliness of the long-distance leader – politicalbetting.com

Sir Keir Starmer has a lot going for him.  He is credible as a PM-in-waiting, which is more than can be said for his two predecessors.  He seems competent, thoughtful, consistent, honourable, and honest, which are not conspicuous strengths of our current PM.  Admittedly he is rather dull, and a poor public speaker, but overall voters think quite favourably of him; his net ratings were modestly positive in six out of the seven December polls.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 5,155
    He is a dull man.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    Well, it's motivating, but if they do fail to manage it the fines seem like they will compound other problems.
  • FPT
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Are we about to wish it was 2020 again?

    but.....but....

    the vaccines....

    they are our way out.....

    Philip said.....
    I don't understand your point, do you believe the vaccines will have no positive effect on things?

    This is on the same logic as claiming lockdowns fail because the virus still exists afterwards (rather than sticking to an argument about liberty or consequential impacts).
    My point is that even after the vaccines are introduced, there will still be reasons to lock us down. Already some medics are suggesting the vaccines do not protect against all of the strains. Which is a reason to maintain locking us down. As the vaccines are introduced, these people will build the case for maintaining the lockdown.

    I don't think any medic has suggested that. Some have said that further study is needed, but none have suggested it won't work.
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/coronavirus-vaccines-may-not-work-23259107

    I'm afraid you are not correct.

    Already the seeds for post vaccination lockdowns are being sown. This is not the end. For the people associated with this, there clearly is no end.
    That title is editorialising. Read the articles and the quotes.
    Here's what Sir John Bell has said

    Speaking to Times Radio on Jan 3, Sir John said he was more concerned about the South African strain than the UK one "by some margin".

    "The mutations associated with the South African form are really pretty substantial changes in the structure of the protein," he said, explaining that the strain had mutated in the part of the virus which allows antibodies to stick to it.

    Sir John added that although there was no data yet on whether it increases severity, "it's increased the infectiousness, probably by increasing its ability to bind to the human cells".

    Asked whether current Covid-19 vaccines would be able to tackle both the UK and South African variants, he said the Oxford University team was currently assessing this and there was still "room to manoeuvre" because the vaccines worked "much better than any of us thought they were going to".

    "I think it's unlikely that these mutations will turn off the effects of vaccines entirely – I think they'll still have a residual effect," he said, adding that it was "perfectly possible" to make new vaccines in a matter of weeks if necessary.

    "It might take a month, or six weeks, to get a new vaccine, so everybody should stay calm. It's going to be fine


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/03/south-african-variant-could-resistant-vaccine-expert-suggests/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 10,115
    DavidL said:
    This relates to holding back half the supplies for the second dose. By people worried about being sued if someone shows up for their second shot and they don't have it.
  • Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043
    edited January 4
    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 34,732
    Good piece (ie I agree). I think shadow chancellor is a key role in being taken seriously as a potential government and I am not sure Annelise Dodds is the answer. She seems tolerably bright but she has minimal presence and is not powerful enough. Brown, for all his many faults, came across as serious and a "big beast" who added a lot of weight to Blair's somewhat more ephemeral approach. Cameron and Osborne the same.

    As Richard points out SKS needs someone at the heart of the project who can share the load rather than increase it. If I was him I would be exploring getting Burnham back into Westminster, assuming that Ed Balls has had enough of front line politics.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 38,775
    Very good header. Thanks @Richard_Nabavi
  • The Lions tour to South Africa this summer ain't happening is it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    I think while there is always a danger of refighting past battles, Mr Nabavi has it right that in terms of operation and preparation Starmer has to look at what worked with Cameron and Blair. Corbyn was a petulant little child, desperately hoping he could ignore the doubts of his own parliamentary party and a standard way of doing things as the public would provide all. Well the public let him down, and Starmer clearly knows he has to buckle down to get it done.

    I'm not really sure how much he can do to make it a team effort as suggested though, in fairness. Things are even more presidential than they were for Cameron and Blair, and how much the public perceives there is strength beyond the leader is nebulous to define.

    He has time, but not infinite time, and now that a year has gone under Boris, more dramatic indications of progress may start to be needed to avoid worries in his ranks, given the electoral maths as noted.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 12,989
    Prof Sridhar on BBC now. Hooray!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,035

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,714
    Can’t argue with any of that Richard; I doubt he’ll be so brave as to change his Shadow Chancellor.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 3,726
    edited January 4
    This is really concerning to me, just as much as the government's non-performance on Spain and Italy flight bans in March, when other countries were putting them in place, and which many of us of all party affiliations pointed out at the time. From everything I've read since then, this is agreed by many people to have been an error, so I find the current policy, considering this strain is even more transmissible, almost completely incomprehensible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    With an 80 seat majority to lose the government would have to reallllly lose it though. A bit more than merely dull competence may be needed.

    That said I don't even think he is as dull as made out. Oh, he's not causing paroxyms of excitement in his own ranks or fear in the others, yet, but for the time being at least his softly softly approach is having an effect, and he is not offputting. He could say the same things as Corbyn and not cause people to worry as much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514


    My point is that even after the vaccines are introduced, there will still be reasons to lock us down. Already some medics are suggesting the vaccines do not protect against all of the strains. Which is a reason to maintain locking us down. As the vaccines are introduced, these people will build the case for maintaining the lockdown.

    So there might not be a complete elimination of restrictions immediately, what of it? Restrictions are not an end in themselves, and the less the public perceives the justification the less the politicians would accept it even if advised to do it, but since at various points restrictions have been relaxed we know the advisers and decision makers don't want to keep us perpetually under restriction.

    So there's nothing to worry about in their motivations. Indeed, the politicians have been slower to implement measures than the public want, so the instinctual position is clearly to relax.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,035
    Why does Dunt consistently use bad language in his tweets

    He really does himself no favours
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,714

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,466
    DavidL said:

    Good piece (ie I agree). I think shadow chancellor is a key role in being taken seriously as a potential government and I am not sure Annelise Dodds is the answer. She seems tolerably bright but she has minimal presence and is not powerful enough. Brown, for all his many faults, came across as serious and a "big beast" who added a lot of weight to Blair's somewhat more ephemeral approach. Cameron and Osborne the same.

    As Richard points out SKS needs someone at the heart of the project who can share the load rather than increase it. If I was him I would be exploring getting Burnham back into Westminster, assuming that Ed Balls has had enough of front line politics.

    Makes me wonder about Ed Miliband. He made that one good Commons speech everyone enjoyed, but as the most heavyweight member of the Shadow Cabinet he's not exactly been conspicuous.

    Is it a deliberate strategy to establish Starmer as The Leader?

    I'd suggest mistaken, if so, but if not then maybe it's just that current Labour politicians are a bit rubbish. Balls and Burnham weren't notably successful previously.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 34,732
    tlg86 said:

    Can’t argue with any of that Richard; I doubt he’ll be so brave as to change his Shadow Chancellor.

    He needs someone obviously better to change it to. I am not sure I am seeing that in the current CLP.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 63,352
    Why is Boris constantly listening to the Shapps and the Williamsons in the cabinet ?!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 4
    French Health Minister Olivier Veran has said "several thousand" people will be vaccinated against coronavirus in the country on Monday

    Well I suppose that's a but of an improvement...still going to take years at that rate.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 5,983

    The Lions tour to South Africa this summer ain't happening is it?

    Depends on what facts emerge about the SA variant. At the moment it is mainly speculation that the Saffers' virus is hardier than triffids. I'm more worried about Cheltenham in ten weeks' time.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 50,909

    French Health Minister Olivier Veran has said "several thousand" people will be vaccinated against coronavirus in the country on Monday

    The lucky few.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 23,895

    French Health Minister Olivier Veran has said "several thousand" people will be vaccinated against coronavirus in the country on Monday

    Well I suppose that's a but of an improvement...still going to take years at that rate.

    That's a very unambitious number.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 34,732

    DavidL said:

    Good piece (ie I agree). I think shadow chancellor is a key role in being taken seriously as a potential government and I am not sure Annelise Dodds is the answer. She seems tolerably bright but she has minimal presence and is not powerful enough. Brown, for all his many faults, came across as serious and a "big beast" who added a lot of weight to Blair's somewhat more ephemeral approach. Cameron and Osborne the same.

    As Richard points out SKS needs someone at the heart of the project who can share the load rather than increase it. If I was him I would be exploring getting Burnham back into Westminster, assuming that Ed Balls has had enough of front line politics.

    Makes me wonder about Ed Miliband. He made that one good Commons speech everyone enjoyed, but as the most heavyweight member of the Shadow Cabinet he's not exactly been conspicuous.

    Is it a deliberate strategy to establish Starmer as The Leader?

    I'd suggest mistaken, if so, but if not then maybe it's just that current Labour politicians are a bit rubbish. Balls and Burnham weren't notably successful previously.
    Ed Miliband would be a better choice than Dodds.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 38,775
    DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    Can’t argue with any of that Richard; I doubt he’ll be so brave as to change his Shadow Chancellor.

    He needs someone obviously better to change it to. I am not sure I am seeing that in the current CLP.
    They need Balls and a by-election.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,466
    Pulpstar said:

    Why is Boris constantly listening to the Shapps and the Williamsons in the cabinet ?!

    Because they tell him what he wants to hear.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    edited January 4
    RobD said:

    French Health Minister Olivier Veran has said "several thousand" people will be vaccinated against coronavirus in the country on Monday

    The lucky few.
    I wonder when we will start hearing stories of the rich French heading elsewhere to get their jab?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 81,377
    To be fair to Starmer even on today's post Brexit Deal Datapoll Labour are still 6% up on GE19 and with the Tories unchanged on the general election voteshare that means Labour would gain seats helped especially by the fact more 2019 LD voters now back Labour than they do the LDs.

    However a more heavyweight frontbench team would help eg Ed Miliband replacing Anneliese Dodds and Yvette Cooper replacing Lisa Nandy for example, Thomas Symonds being the only heavyweight besides Starmer in Labour's top team.

    It should be remembered though that we are only 10 years into a Tory government ie the equivalent of Kinnock 1989 for Starmer, Blair took over in 1994 after 15 years of the Tories in power
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 53,302
    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 17,156
    IshmaelZ said:

    He is a dull man.

    Nabavi? You're not kidding.

    But he makes some decent points here.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,035
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Good piece (ie I agree). I think shadow chancellor is a key role in being taken seriously as a potential government and I am not sure Annelise Dodds is the answer. She seems tolerably bright but she has minimal presence and is not powerful enough. Brown, for all his many faults, came across as serious and a "big beast" who added a lot of weight to Blair's somewhat more ephemeral approach. Cameron and Osborne the same.

    As Richard points out SKS needs someone at the heart of the project who can share the load rather than increase it. If I was him I would be exploring getting Burnham back into Westminster, assuming that Ed Balls has had enough of front line politics.

    Makes me wonder about Ed Miliband. He made that one good Commons speech everyone enjoyed, but as the most heavyweight member of the Shadow Cabinet he's not exactly been conspicuous.

    Is it a deliberate strategy to establish Starmer as The Leader?

    I'd suggest mistaken, if so, but if not then maybe it's just that current Labour politicians are a bit rubbish. Balls and Burnham weren't notably successful previously.
    Ed Miliband would be a better choice than Dodds.
    Rachel Reeves
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 44,520

    Prof Sridhar on BBC now. Hooray!

    Does the word "Oxford" pass her lips?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    There's a problem with the header, they appear to have typed 'male politician' into a stock photo website and just gone with that.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,992
    Pulpstar said:

    Why is Boris constantly listening to the Shapps and the Williamsons in the cabinet ?!

    Why does he always undermine and restriction announcement he makes with unkeepable promises about things returning to normal soon?

    Because he doesn't want to do lockdown so will always listen to the no lockdown proponent.
  • tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 34,793
    I find it astonishing that to fly to Hawaii from the rest of the US, you need a CV19 PCR negative test from the previous 48 hours. Yet, we don't even impose that.

    PCR negative test 48 hours before (otherwise no flying)
    +
    Antigen prior to boarding (otherwise no flying)
    +
    Antigen at airport on arrival (in case of confirmed positive, entire plane is quarantined in an airport hotel for two weeks)

    That's less intrusive that most places, but would reduce by 99% the number of imported cases.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 38,775
    Zoe guy is sceptical on tonight's 8pm announcement:

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,992

    The Lions tour to South Africa this summer ain't happening is it?

    If I was a competent Rugby Administrator I would be moving the 6Ns to June and saying "fuck the lions tour".

    Instead the Lions committee won't even make a decision till Feb. Only a week or so before the 6N is due to kick off.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,152
    A very fair article. Starmer needs to look carefully at his shadow cabinet, which was assembled to reflect the balance of power within the Labour party at the time of his election, rather than as an alternative government. There are big hitters on the backbenches - Yvette Cooper, Hillary Benn, Stella Creasey, for example - who could do a lot of what Richard quite rightly says is needed. The far-left has decided to go to war against him, so there is very little need to appease them.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,992
    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    Quality gag that will go over many peoples' heads.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,182

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
    It used to be 'something in Brussels' but sadly no more.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    DIdn't Labour used to vote who would be in the Shadow Cabinet rather than it being a matter purely for the Leader? That must have been very exciting.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 2,119
    kle4 said:

    Well, it's motivating, but if they do fail to manage it the fines seem like they will compound other problems.
    Then they'll have to introduce fines for giving it to the 'wrong' people, then fines for falsifying record-keeping, then fines for ...

    Punishing people for not being perfect while overworked, stressed out and dead tired does not seem helpful in this circumstance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 10,115

    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
    The problem they have identified is, that in a modern, technological world, the people shaping that world are very largely science and engineering based.

    Many of these science and engineering people use a strange, exclusionary language. Maths.

    Also they claim to know answers with absolute truth.

    If you are from the dumb zone in the arts, this is very, very scary.

    You are excluded from shaping the world
    You have no idea how this works
    You don't want to know how this works
    Someone stop it now!!!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,280
    Nor does there seem to be any loyal Team Starmer acting behind the scenes in support of the leader and acting as a trusted sounding-board; he cuts a lonely figure, running his electoral marathon and making some personal impact, but without the team support needed to win in 2024. Where are the equivalents of Brown, Mandelson, Campbell, supported by Jack Straw, Robin Cook, David Blunkett, and the other New Labour figures?


    Excellent article. Unless the interesting question highlighted can be answered the chance of Starmer being PM is very slight. His only chance would be the Tories being so bad that they manage to come second to a carthorse. Ed Miliband is not a heavyweight. His brother is. They have never recovered from rejecting DM.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 50,909

    Zoe guy is sceptical on tonight's 8pm announcement:

    Whether he likes it or not the numbers are going up everywhere.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,702

    Why does Dunt consistently use bad language in his tweets

    He really does himself no favours
    My theory is that having a surname that rhymes with a particularly bad word meant that he was referred to using said word relentlessly as a child and has become desensitised as a result.
    Swearing doesn't bother me, but then I grew up in Fife.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 81,377

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    Heath 1970 too, at least he was seen as dull and competent until he got the job
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,152
    kle4 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    With an 80 seat majority to lose the government would have to reallllly lose it though. A bit more than merely dull competence may be needed.

    That said I don't even think he is as dull as made out. Oh, he's not causing paroxyms of excitement in his own ranks or fear in the others, yet, but for the time being at least his softly softly approach is having an effect, and he is not offputting. He could say the same things as Corbyn and not cause people to worry as much.

    It's an 80 seat majority, but the Tories only need to fall below 40% to run the risk of losing it - even with the new boundaries. For now, the fact that the parties are within MoE of each other is working against Starmer and Labour. But the longer it continues, the more of a problem it becomes for the Tories as they will be the ones losing seats.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,714

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    I didn’t realise Major won from opposition...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 3,730
    Alistair said:

    The Lions tour to South Africa this summer ain't happening is it?

    If I was a competent Rugby Administrator I would be moving the 6Ns to June and saying "fuck the lions tour".

    Instead the Lions committee won't even make a decision till Feb. Only a week or so before the 6N is due to kick off.
    We agree on something
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043
    edited January 4

    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
    She seems to be a grad student doing a long-running PhD in UC, Dublin.

    The paper is submitted to the Danish Journal of Women, Gender and Research

    I recommend her earlier arXiv postings on Robot Rights and Algorithmic Injustices should you need a second or third helping.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 44,520

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    I think the best comparison is Attlee - a bit dull, but confident enough to surround himself with "big beasts". I don't think Starmer lacks the confidence to have "big beasts" round the table - just the paucity of them in the PLP. Miliband for SCoE would be a good start, and I'd get Cooper (SHS) and Benn onto the front bench too.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 3,726
    edited January 4
    The organisational theme in the article is important ; who provides that help is important too, though. A key problem for Starmer is that many of those who do have this organisational experience are not going to provide Starmer with the political route to power ; the electorate is not waiting for 1997 reassurances on Labour, but something quite different. His main problem in that respect is that figures from the 1960s and '70s Soft Left with governmental experience are long since dead.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,182
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    Heath 1970 too, at least he was seen as dull and competent until he got the job
    After which he was seen as dull and incompetent.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    I didn’t realise Major won from opposition...
    That's why I said it was an inelegant example, but an example where dull and competent beat exciting and personality.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514

    Why does Dunt consistently use bad language in his tweets

    He really does himself no favours
    As these things go that one is relatively tame, and used sparingly it can have effective impact, though personally I find liberal such use to be detrimental. Where do you go when you need to make a really strong point if you already use it a lot?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 34,494
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    Heath 1970 too, at least he was seen as dull and competent until he got the job
    Well, he certainly got rid of one of those labels with skill and panache.

    If he’d only found a way to ditch the ‘dull’ part...
  • Alistair said:

    The Lions tour to South Africa this summer ain't happening is it?

    If I was a competent Rugby Administrator I would be moving the 6Ns to June and saying "fuck the lions tour".

    Instead the Lions committee won't even make a decision till Feb. Only a week or so before the 6N is due to kick off.
    The issue is that financially the tour needs to happen but delaying it to 2022 isn't an option as the national teams don't want a Lions Tour a year before a world cup.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,182
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    Heath 1970 too, at least he was seen as dull and competent until he got the job
    Well, he certainly got rid of one of those labels with skill and panache.

    If he’d only found a way to ditch the ‘dull’ part...
    You said it better than me.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 2,119

    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
    The problem they have identified is, that in a modern, technological world, the people shaping that world are very largely science and engineering based.

    Many of these science and engineering people use a strange, exclusionary language. Maths.

    Also they claim to know answers with absolute truth.

    If you are from the dumb zone in the arts, this is very, very scary.

    You are excluded from shaping the world
    You have no idea how this works
    You don't want to know how this works
    Someone stop it now!!!
    We can't participate in the conversation as we don't speak the language (but we have our own incomprehensible language). So,
    We are excluded from shaping the world
    We have no idea how this works
    We don't want to know how this works
    Someone stop it now!!!


    To be fair, I think maths is over-rated in understanding complexity.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 81,377

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    I think the best comparison is Attlee - a bit dull, but confident enough to surround himself with "big beasts". I don't think Starmer lacks the confidence to have "big beasts" round the table - just the paucity of them in the PLP. Miliband for SCoE would be a good start, and I'd get Cooper (SHS) and Benn onto the front bench too.
    I would keep Thomas Symonds, as a former commercial barrister he is one of the few Shadow Cabinet Ministers more heavyweight than their Cabinet counterparts, in his case Priti Patel
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,280
    edited January 4
    What would the ordinary voter think Labour was passionate and committed about? Are they passionate about the aspirational working class, disaffected white young men, engineering, entrepreneurs, The Union of GB and NI, Brexit, getting bogus rubbish out of top tier universities, getting rid of teachers who can't teach, lowering taxes for middling sorts, freedom of speech (used to be a left of centre issue...)?

    I don't feel convinced enough yet. They still feel like the defenders of mediocrity and the place man.

    And the ranting left tendency is still around.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,002
    Hurrah - it's not 2020.... and Spurs are 100% winners this year. Until tomorrow night anyway.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514
    kle4 said:

    DIdn't Labour used to vote who would be in the Shadow Cabinet rather than it being a matter purely for the Leader? That must have been very exciting.

    Having a look, at the very last such elections the person who received the fewest votes of those who stood was...Eric Joyce. Probably a good call.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 6,003

    Pulpstar said:

    Why is Boris constantly listening to the Shapps and the Williamsons in the cabinet ?!

    Because they tell him what he wants to hear.
    Because he believes they are even more stupid than he is? First among equals where equality is close to stupidity.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,966
    algarkirk said:

    What would the ordinary voter think Labour was passionate and committed about? Are they passionate about the aspirational working class, disaffected white young men, engineering, entrepreneurs, The Union of GB and NI, Brexit, getting bogus rubbish out of top tier universities, getting rid of teachers who can't teach, lowering taxes for middling sorts, freedom of speech (used to be a left of centre issue...)?

    I don't feel convinced enough yet. They still feel like the defenders of mediocrity and the place man.

    And the ranting left tendency is still around.

    Kneeling. They've really cornered the market in that. Plays to their strengths.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,002
    On thread - it's never too late to Bring Back Burgon.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043

    kle4 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    With an 80 seat majority to lose the government would have to reallllly lose it though. A bit more than merely dull competence may be needed.

    That said I don't even think he is as dull as made out. Oh, he's not causing paroxyms of excitement in his own ranks or fear in the others, yet, but for the time being at least his softly softly approach is having an effect, and he is not offputting. He could say the same things as Corbyn and not cause people to worry as much.

    It's an 80 seat majority, but the Tories only need to fall below 40% to run the risk of losing it - even with the new boundaries. For now, the fact that the parties are within MoE of each other is working against Starmer and Labour. But the longer it continues, the more of a problem it becomes for the Tories as they will be the ones losing seats.

    The longer neck-and-neck continues, the more it is a problem for SKS (not the Tories).

    Remember, Ed Miliband was +12 two years after the GE that brought the Coalition to power.

    SKS needs to show some some good poll leads this year.

    It is not an easy year for him outside England. I suspect there are middling to bad results waiting for him in Scotland and Wales.

    He really needs to line most of the leadership of the Welsh and Scottish Labour parties against a wall, and ...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 8,690

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
    I think BigG. was alluding to the new Conservative Ed. Sec. in Paul Davies' first cabinet. Not beyond the realms of probability.

    Starmer's defeat in Wales will not look good against a resurgent Johnson and the Conservatives nationally, post Brexit, and post vaccine.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 8,498
    DavidL said:

    Good piece (ie I agree). I think shadow chancellor is a key role in being taken seriously as a potential government and I am not sure Annelise Dodds is the answer. She seems tolerably bright but she has minimal presence and is not powerful enough. Brown, for all his many faults, came across as serious and a "big beast" who added a lot of weight to Blair's somewhat more ephemeral approach. Cameron and Osborne the same.

    As Richard points out SKS needs someone at the heart of the project who can share the load rather than increase it. If I was him I would be exploring getting Burnham back into Westminster, assuming that Ed Balls has had enough of front line politics.

    Burnham would be the best addition he can make, dont know if he would be interested though?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 44,520
    The EU’s attempts at securing more doses of the only COVID-19 vaccine it has authorised come amid concern in some capitals that a separate German order for the same shot might compete with broader supplies for the 27-country bloc.

    Germany said on Monday that it had agreed with BioNTech last September to supply an additional 30 million doses on a bilateral basis........

    The bilateral German deal predates by two months the EU contract for the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine that was signed in November after talks that had been going on at least since July.


    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-eu-pfizer-idUKKBN2991WF?taid=5ff353405b2aa000013649c0&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,992

    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
    She seems to be a grad student doing a long-running PhD in UC, Dublin.

    The paper is submitted to the Danish Journal of Women, Gender and Research

    I recommend her earlier arXiv postings on Robot Rights and Algorithmic Injustices should you need a second or third helping.
    The field of AI is absolutely rife with systemic racism.

    There is a certain class of AI researcher who is simply adament that AI cannot be racist as it is "just data and algorithms" the idea that humans have crafted both of them seems to completely slip their mind.

    Which leads you to having facial recognition systems that have a 5 times false positive rate on black faces or chat bots that spew put Racial slurs because their source corpus is full of racist texts
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
    I think BigG. was alluding to the new Conservative Ed. Sec. in Paul Davies' first cabinet. Not beyond the realms of probability.

    Starmer's defeat in Wales will not look good against a resurgent Johnson and the Conservatives nationally, post Brexit, and post vaccine.
    We will have to swap notes with YDoethur and BigG about what we think will happen, a little closer to the elections :)

    I expect, though, the next Welsh Govt will be a Labour + Plaid combo.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 23,895

    The EU’s attempts at securing more doses of the only COVID-19 vaccine it has authorised come amid concern in some capitals that a separate German order for the same shot might compete with broader supplies for the 27-country bloc.

    Germany said on Monday that it had agreed with BioNTech last September to supply an additional 30 million doses on a bilateral basis........

    The bilateral German deal predates by two months the EU contract for the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine that was signed in November after talks that had been going on at least since July.


    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-eu-pfizer-idUKKBN2991WF?taid=5ff353405b2aa000013649c0&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

    The whole EU scheme is such a fucking disaster. One of my italian colleagues is worried that his family back home will be waiting until the end of the year to get jabbed while he'll get it by the end of June.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 81,377
    edited January 4

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
    I think BigG. was alluding to the new Conservative Ed. Sec. in Paul Davies' first cabinet. Not beyond the realms of probability.

    Starmer's defeat in Wales will not look good against a resurgent Johnson and the Conservatives nationally, post Brexit, and post vaccine.
    Any Labour defeat or more likely seats lost in Wales will be down to Drakeford, as poor performance for SLab in Scotland can be blamed on Leonard, both are Corbynites so not part of the Starmer project.

    Starmer however is likely to make gains in England though regardless, for example last time the county council seats were up in 2017 the Tories were 11% ahead, even with Deltapoll's post Deal poll today they are only 5% ahead. Labour are also likely to win big in London in both the Mayoral and Assembly polls
  • On topic, I think the article romanticises the standing of leading shadow cabinet members pre-1997 (and indeed pre-2010).

    There's a big aspect of hindsight here. At the time, they were pretty widely derided as political lightweights with sod all government experience (which inevitably was true after more than a decade in opposition). Gordon Brown was a fairly capable performer but simply hadn't evolved into anything like the Big Clunking Fist in 1996, let alone the likes of Straw and Blunkett. Similar with Cameron's Tory front bench.

    That said, he will need to reshuffle later in the year as there are fairly clear strengths and weaknesses. Anneliese Dodds just hasn't carved out a clear and consistent line of attack on Rishi Sunak for example.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 63,352
    MAGA backers are losing faith, price has headed into 1.02

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.138799270
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,035

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
    I think BigG. was alluding to the new Conservative Ed. Sec. in Paul Davies' first cabinet. Not beyond the realms of probability.

    Starmer's defeat in Wales will not look good against a resurgent Johnson and the Conservatives nationally, post Brexit, and post vaccine.
    Actually I was referring to her announced retirement from office
  • Hurrah - it's not 2020.... and Spurs are 100% winners this year. Until tomorrow night anyway.

    I'm cheering for Tottenham tomorrow.

    Turns out Brentford have a massive racism problem, they hired a security who is the boyfriend of an employee, and said steward used the N Word. Turns out the steward is a convicted football hooligan.

    But lots of Brentford fans have been banned for being massive racists.

    Who could have predicted people who screamed 'White Lives Matter' were massive racists and antisemites?

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/brentford-employed-racist-who-was-a-convicted-football-hooligan-9lqvmcqvw
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 63,352
    edited January 4
    This isn't actually terrible thinking from Shapps



    One or two actually in Kent and up toward East Anglia would be a good idea though.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 44,520
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    Examples?
    Attlee 1945.

    Wilson 1964.

    Major 1992 might be an inelegant example.
    I think the best comparison is Attlee - a bit dull, but confident enough to surround himself with "big beasts". I don't think Starmer lacks the confidence to have "big beasts" round the table - just the paucity of them in the PLP. Miliband for SCoE would be a good start, and I'd get Cooper (SHS) and Benn onto the front bench too.
    I would keep Thomas Symonds, as a former commercial barrister he is one of the few Shadow Cabinet Ministers more heavyweight than their Cabinet counterparts, in his case Priti Patel
    Just had to google him - which may not be the greatest of starts. In fairness I think Ashworth (Health) has acquitted himself well - asking probing questions, not lurching into an endless TOREEEEES ARE EVILLLLL rant like some of his peers (in several parties).

    Here's the cavalcade of wit & beauty:

    https://labour.org.uk/people/shadow-cabinet-2/
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 3,726
    edited January 4
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
    She seems to be a grad student doing a long-running PhD in UC, Dublin.

    The paper is submitted to the Danish Journal of Women, Gender and Research

    I recommend her earlier arXiv postings on Robot Rights and Algorithmic Injustices should you need a second or third helping.
    The field of AI is absolutely rife with systemic racism.

    There is a certain class of AI researcher who is simply adament that AI cannot be racist as it is "just data and algorithms" the idea that humans have crafted both of them seems to completely slip their mind.

    Which leads you to having facial recognition systems that have a 5 times false positive rate on black faces or chat bots that spew put Racial slurs because their source corpus is full of racist texts
    This is quite an interesting area. On the one hand you have the kind of fatuousness when some cultural studies critics and post-structuralists apply themselves to science that led to the Sokal case, and on the other hand you have the kind of smug scientism that is under the false impression that cultural questions play no part on science.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 60,514

    kle4 said:

    Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

    Being dull and competent may well work, it has in the past.

    With an 80 seat majority to lose the government would have to reallllly lose it though. A bit more than merely dull competence may be needed.

    That said I don't even think he is as dull as made out. Oh, he's not causing paroxyms of excitement in his own ranks or fear in the others, yet, but for the time being at least his softly softly approach is having an effect, and he is not offputting. He could say the same things as Corbyn and not cause people to worry as much.

    It's an 80 seat majority, but the Tories only need to fall below 40% to run the risk of losing it - even with the new boundaries. For now, the fact that the parties are within MoE of each other is working against Starmer and Labour. But the longer it continues, the more of a problem it becomes for the Tories as they will be the ones losing seats.

    I agree, and I think it can be done, but it buys the Tories a bit more of a cushion in terms of how bad they have to be, or how good Labour need to be.
  • Off topic. Am now having a slightly heated discussion with my student son who is at home with us in Edinburgh. He wants to return to his private rented accommodation in Dundee later this week. He tells me that travel to Uni is a reasonable excuse.

    I read the legislation that such travel means to campus for face-to-face teaching. The only other reference for students seems to be the end-of-term travel home to the family household. I see nothing in the rules allowing travel up to a student flat in another council area so you can be with your mates rather than having the daily joy of your mum telling you to get up and think about having a shower and possibly tidying your room.
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2021/1/regulation/4/made

    Lockdown 2.0 is going to be a nightmare.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,992

    Alistair said:

    The Lions tour to South Africa this summer ain't happening is it?

    If I was a competent Rugby Administrator I would be moving the 6Ns to June and saying "fuck the lions tour".

    Instead the Lions committee won't even make a decision till Feb. Only a week or so before the 6N is due to kick off.
    The issue is that financially the tour needs to happen but delaying it to 2022 isn't an option as the national teams don't want a Lions Tour a year before a world cup.
    Financially it is vastly more important for SA that the tour goes ahead than the home nations.

    The choice between a 6N played behind closed doors + a probably cancelled lions tour that they will have wasted money planning vs a 6N with crowds and definitely no lions Tour they don't have to fund seems like a no brainer to me.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,043
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    Jesus Christ...I have just stumbled across this...these people must be in a permanent state of offended by everything, everyone, everywhere...

    I'm unable to grasp what their proposed solution is to the problem they have identified. Oh, there's a lot of words about what needs doing, but I couldn't really follow it.

    Thankfully I did history, and there's no concerns about cultural or structural issues there.
    I am not sure they really have one....cos solutions are racist concepts....
    She seems to be a grad student doing a long-running PhD in UC, Dublin.

    The paper is submitted to the Danish Journal of Women, Gender and Research

    I recommend her earlier arXiv postings on Robot Rights and Algorithmic Injustices should you need a second or third helping.
    The field of AI is absolutely rife with systemic racism.

    There is a certain class of AI researcher who is simply adament that AI cannot be racist as it is "just data and algorithms" the idea that humans have crafted both of them seems to completely slip their mind.

    Which leads you to having facial recognition systems that have a 5 times false positive rate on black faces or chat bots that spew put Racial slurs because their source corpus is full of racist texts
    Any AI algorithm (like a neural network) has to be trained.

    If the training set is racist, then the network output will be. E.g., if the training set is mainly composed of white-faced images, then the facial recognition system will identify black faces as white ones.

    However, if the training set is mainly composed of black faces, then white faces will be recognised as black ones.

    It is not so much the algorithm that is racist, it is the training set.

    It is the data on which the network has been trained.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,035

    FPT



    Has he told Drakeford

    It is obvious that no one -- least of all SKS -- tells Drakeford anything.

    The disparity between Starmer's proclamations & Drakeford's actions are so glaring that the only explanation is that Labour have completely forgotten that they are running Wales.

    Possibly Labour have been running Wales for so long, they just think it is the place where they can mooch around in flip-flops and nothing ever gets done there.

    It is very common. OGH was earlier fulminating about the folly of keeping the schools open.

    Apparently OGH is unaware that the last LibDem in power anywhere (darling Kirsty) is actually in charge of the Welsh education portfolio, and is busy keeping the schools in Wales open.

    I have given up expecting any consistency between what English Labour and LibDem politicians say, and what their representatives in the Welsh Government actually do.
    I totally agree and of course Kirsty, the Liberal Democrat, is the one in charge of schools but not for much longer thankfully
    Yes, dear, dim Kirsty will be gone, retiring.

    She will be going on to do whatever failed LibDems go on to do.

    Posting on pb.com, probably. :)
    I think BigG. was alluding to the new Conservative Ed. Sec. in Paul Davies' first cabinet. Not beyond the realms of probability.

    Starmer's defeat in Wales will not look good against a resurgent Johnson and the Conservatives nationally, post Brexit, and post vaccine.
    We will have to swap notes with YDoethur and BigG about what we think will happen, a little closer to the elections :)

    I expect, though, the next Welsh Govt will be a Labour + Plaid combo.
    Probably
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