As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
The right hand column is of interest with expectations that around only 10 conservatives will vote against and suggesting Labour and Starmer have a bigger problem
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
I must say I have seen quite a few politicians decide to try to stop things like mobile phone masts on health grounds 'just in case'. I don't think it would be hard to fine some non-LDs doing the same thing on 5G, not that that makes it ok.
I have sat in many planning meetings where councillors, of all parties but conservatives more than most, have voted against mast proposals faced with residents lobbying about all manner of concerns, most commonly the supposed damaging effects of the radiation particularly on children.
But, this is different. This is not a local councillor. This is the MP for Bath.
An MP, moreover, who accepts that the objections to 5G on health grounds are spurious.
But, she is not willing to say that directly to the objectors -- rather she lends them her support.
"Hobhouse was unable to return my calls, " writes Nick Cohen.
No surprise to find Wera is a LibDem MP.
Long, long, long sigh. Have the LibDems learnt nothing ? Was the lesson not painful enough ?
It's really not that different. Heck, on planning matters councillors would typically have more influence if they sit on the appropriate committee. MPs oppose planning matters all the time, as they have no real influence so they might as well oppose anything which people write to them about.
It's the same thing, for the same reason, it's just sadder as MPs have influence on other things, and if they act that way for that it is a bad sign, granted.
I think we expect higher standards from an MP than a Councillor.
I would hope we could elect 650 MPs who knew what they believed in and weren't afraid to articulate it,
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
I must say I have seen quite a few politicians decide to try to stop things like mobile phone masts on health grounds 'just in case'. I don't think it would be hard to fine some non-LDs doing the same thing on 5G, not that that makes it ok.
I have sat in many planning meetings where councillors, of all parties but conservatives more than most, have voted against mast proposals faced with residents lobbying about all manner of concerns, most commonly the supposed damaging effects of the radiation particularly on children.
But, this is different. This is not a local councillor. This is the MP for Bath.
An MP, moreover, who accepts that the objections to 5G on health grounds are spurious.
But, she is not willing to say that directly to the objectors -- rather she lends them her support.
"Hobhouse was unable to return my calls, " writes Nick Cohen.
No surprise to find Wera is a LibDem MP.
Long, long, long sigh. Have the LibDems learnt nothing ? Was the lesson not painful enough ?
It's really not that different. Heck, on planning matters councillors would typically have more influence if they sit on the appropriate committee. MPs oppose planning matters all the time, as they have no real influence so they might as well oppose anything which people write to them about.
It's the same thing, for the same reason, it's just sadder as MPs have influence on other things, and if they act that way for that it is a bad sign, granted.
I think we expect higher standards from an MP than a Councillor.
I would hope we could elect 650 MPs who knew what they believed in and weren't afraid to articulate it,
I don't think that is what the Parties want when they select candidates. Even if they say they do.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
You could earn quite a bit more overseas no? My mate tells me he doubled his salary as a junior doctor by moving to NZ.
Someone said here a while ago that there were about 10,000 GP practices in the UK. 1 million vaccinations a week is only 100 vaccinations a week per GP practice, or 20 per weekday. It would take about nine months to reach herd immunity levels.
It's a good example of a number that sounds impressively large, but is really pitifully low.
I can only assume that supply constraints prevent anything more ambitious.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
And I would take you back to the start of the discussion ; the French don't trust the self-congratulatory British concept of soft power in its current cinema and television, and when you look into the background and building blocks of much US-funded modern British TV and cinema, that's a perfectly reasonable position.
The more apt question might be : which films are sustaining France's self-confidence, cohesion and domestic industry ? Unlike the UK, they don't really care if commercially successful films like Amelie, La Vie En Rose, Amour or The Artist are, contentiously, considered influential, soft power exports, if they don't work for them.
Just watching Death of Stalin again, Malenkov is suggesting a demotion for Beria, perhaps minister of fisheries. Maybe a portakabin in Peterhead for Gav?
I’m not against Beria’s actual fate, mind
Guy playing Beria was fantastic in that movie. It's a hilarious film, but he was still a threatening presence.
The whole cast was good if not quite perfectly transferable physically (fat Beria v skinny Krushchev). The only slight disappointment was Stalin himself; I'm sure he was the coarse bully portrayed but the malevolent Sphinx aspect was lacking.
It is one of my favourite movies of recent years. Scandalously uncelebrated, maybe.
It's like the Spinal Tap of communist-politics-movies. It is so close to being actually believeable - and adheres to historical truth quite closely - yet it is still outrageously surreal and hilariously WTF.
Genius.
"Shoot her before him, but make sure he sees it... oh, and this one, kill him, take him to his church and dump him in the pulpit... The rest I leave up to you."
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
The Bureau is outstanding. Got a standing ovation when shown in a private viewing to the DGSE. Easiest to buy by the set from Amazon video, rather than having to sign up with Sundance.
Yes, this sort of thing will provide an easy answer for Boris on a lot of things. Same with the stuff about him wanting no deal.
Sure, people can make arguments about what he had to do to get a deal done in that time and the negatives of that in their view, but it makes it a more complicated argument than initially presented, the same as Boris promising things would continue and now having to explain why that might not be the case (though with things like Erasmus, it's minor enough to not gain much traction).
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
I think tv has displaced movies as the producer of great cultural moments/monuments, to the point of discussing films as expressions of national 'heft' being a bit of an anachronism.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
I understand Anneliese Dodds is on the brink
Who is your source? Who do you know in the Labour Party?
I must say I have seen quite a few politicians decide to try to stop things like mobile phone masts on health grounds 'just in case'. I don't think it would be hard to fine some non-LDs doing the same thing on 5G, not that that makes it ok.
I have sat in many planning meetings where councillors, of all parties but conservatives more than most, have voted against mast proposals faced with residents lobbying about all manner of concerns, most commonly the supposed damaging effects of the radiation particularly on children.
But, this is different. This is not a local councillor. This is the MP for Bath.
An MP, moreover, who accepts that the objections to 5G on health grounds are spurious.
But, she is not willing to say that directly to the objectors -- rather she lends them her support.
"Hobhouse was unable to return my calls, " writes Nick Cohen.
No surprise to find Wera is a LibDem MP.
Long, long, long sigh. Have the LibDems learnt nothing ? Was the lesson not painful enough ?
It's really not that different. Heck, on planning matters councillors would typically have more influence if they sit on the appropriate committee. MPs oppose planning matters all the time, as they have no real influence so they might as well oppose anything which people write to them about.
It's the same thing, for the same reason, it's just sadder as MPs have influence on other things, and if they act that way for that it is a bad sign, granted.
I think we expect higher standards from an MP than a Councillor.
I would hope we could elect 650 MPs who knew what they believed in and weren't afraid to articulate it,
I don't think that is what the Parties want when they select candidates. Even if they say they do.
How many votes is Wera going to lose over this?
There are 2 universities in Bath, packed with science departments.
No one who is a scientist, or who has any scientific training, is going to be impressed by Wera Hobhouse, Friend of the Whack-Jobs.
Wera will lose many more votes than she gains. It is very stupid & short-sighted.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
You could earn quite a bit more overseas no? My mate tells me he doubled his salary as a junior doctor by moving to NZ.
When I worked in NZ, medical salaries were much the same as in the UK. They still are.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
I understand Anneliese Dodds is on the brink
Who is your source? Who do you know in the Labour Party?
Now that would be telling, you may be surprised
But like so much it is no doubt part of the rumour mill
And I was very good personal friends with an important Labour minister in the seventies
I sort of feel for the Labour frontbenchers, in not wanting to vote for a Tory deal which I am sure they think it terrible, but whilst I don't think Starmer need whip a vote necessarily, and could have abstained, it also doesn't seem the sort of thing that matters so much you'd need to resign over it.
I mean, the 'damage' some of them might fear from Labour backing it will already occur as Starmer and presumably most of the MPs will back it, so tactically there's not much point in resigning or getting sacked, and on moral grounds, well, few will believe no deal is better than a bad deal and there's no point in seeing it as a vote 'for' Brexit at this point as that's already happened.
So while I'd not feel great about being whipped to vote for it, it isn't that big a deal.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
I understand Anneliese Dodds is on the brink
Who is your source? Who do you know in the Labour Party?
Now that would be telling, you may be surprised
But like so much it is no doubt part of the rumour mill
And I was very good personal friends with an important Labour minister in the seventies
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
You could earn quite a bit more overseas no? My mate tells me he doubled his salary as a junior doctor by moving to NZ.
Then let him move to NZ we can employ a spanish doctor for half the price....sadly though they have a monopoly and if we get a spanish doctor who would accept less we still have to pay him the same. Foxy has never had to compete with people who will do the same service for lower prices like most of us.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
My point is that most Frontbenchers are not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
I understand Anneliese Dodds is on the brink
Who is your source? Who do you know in the Labour Party?
Now that would be telling, you may be surprised
But like so much it is no doubt part of the rumour mill
And I was very good personal friends with an important Labour minister in the seventies
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
I understand Anneliese Dodds is on the brink
Who is your source? Who do you know in the Labour Party?
Now that would be telling, you may be surprised
But like so much it is no doubt part of the rumour mill
And I was very good personal friends with an important Labour minister in the seventies
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
I'm told that Immortals Fenyx Rising is a decent game, basically AC Odyssey with jumping and platforming.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
Feels like it will come back to bite them eventually. I loved 'the Ubisoft game' when they were getting into merging various elements together, around Black Flag, but I don't think I've bought one since Far Cry 4 since the same thing with a bland story is not worth paying for.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
I think tv has displaced movies as the producer of great cultural moments/monuments, to the point of discussing films as expressions of national 'heft' being a bit of an anachronism.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
Its for oldies.
YouTube is bigger and better.
At many things. But scripted entertainment?
Plenty of that as well.
Maybe not new stuff but most new stuff is crap in any case.
Someone said here a while ago that there were about 10,000 GP practices in the UK. 1 million vaccinations a week is only 100 vaccinations a week per GP practice, or 20 per weekday. It would take about nine months to reach herd immunity levels.
It's a good example of a number that sounds impressively large, but is really pitifully low.
I can only assume that supply constraints prevent anything more ambitious.
Also: "In the 2019-20 season, more than 14 million adults and children were vaccinated against flu across the UK."
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
My point is that most Frontbenchers are not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
If you google Labour frontbencher the first result is the Labour page for its Shadow Cabinet. If we're talking shadow junior ministers, I don't see what difference it makes, the point is the same which is why you can substitute them if you wish to be pedantic about it.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
Feels like it will come back to bite them eventually. I loved 'the Ubisoft game' when they were getting into merging various elements together, around Black Flag, but I don't think I've bought one since Far Cry 4 since the same thing with a bland story is not worth paying for.
Yeah I tend to buy one AC game per generation which is fine for me. I got Odyssey last time, think I'll probably get the one after the next one if the subject matter is interesting. I'm not interested to play as a murderous rapist Viking being told by the game that I'm the good guy and that Vikings were all lovely and just misunderstood.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
I'm told that Immortals Fenyx Rising is a decent game, basically AC Odyssey with jumping and platforming.
Open world Ubisoft game where you open up areas by climbing towers and go to little icons on the map to perform repetitive tasks.
But with cutesy graphics.
I quite enjoyed Watch Dogs Legion, until the utterly ridiculous plot wore me down. (The Oval Cricket ground was converted into the European Processing Centre, which was a concentration camp full of immigrants.)
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Not movies, but Spiral and The Bureau are fantastic and kick the arses of the UK's rough equivalents, Line of Duty and Spooks.
Spiral was rather good, haven't seen The Bureau. I shall watch! (partly on your recommendation)
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
Its for oldies.
YouTube is bigger and better.
At many things. But scripted entertainment?
Plenty of that as well.
Maybe not new stuff but most new stuff is crap in any case.
Well there's only so many people actually decent at writing things, but a lot more content being produced, so the ratio is not great. But I confess I was not aware of things being made by or for Youtube in that manner.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
You could earn quite a bit more overseas no? My mate tells me he doubled his salary as a junior doctor by moving to NZ.
Then let him move to NZ we can employ a spanish doctor for half the price....sadly though they have a monopoly and if we get a spanish doctor who would accept less we still have to pay him the same. Foxy has never had to compete with people who will do the same service for lower prices like most of us.
On the contrary, at almost every interview in my career, I was appointed against stiff competition.
But I am glad to see that you have come around to free movement of European immigrant Labour. We will make a Europhile of you yet.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
You could earn quite a bit more overseas no? My mate tells me he doubled his salary as a junior doctor by moving to NZ.
Then let him move to NZ we can employ a spanish doctor for half the price....sadly though they have a monopoly and if we get a spanish doctor who would accept less we still have to pay him the same. Foxy has never had to compete with people who will do the same service for lower prices like most of us.
On the contrary, at almost every interview in my career, I was appointed against stiff competition.
But I am glad to see that you have come around to free movement of European immigrant Labour. We will make a Europhile of you yet.
You never got examined on cost though did you, merely had to prove you were the best man for the job. Never I may not be the best man but someone else will do it for half the cost which is what your eu gave most of us.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
I'm told that Immortals Fenyx Rising is a decent game, basically AC Odyssey with jumping and platforming.
Open world Ubisoft game where you open up areas by climbing towers and go to little icons on the map to perform repetitive tasks.
But with cutesy graphics.
I quite enjoyed Watch Dogs Legion, until the utterly ridiculous plot wore me down. (The Oval Cricket ground was converted into the European Processing Centre, which was a concentration camp full of immigrants.)
Yeah, I'm going to wait until it's down to £15 or £25 including all the DLC. No way I'd ever pay full price for an Ubisoft game. I'm not completely stupid.
Yeah the story in a lot of these games are quite eye roll worthy. AC Valhalla suffers from that for me, play as a Viking, raid villages and kill civilians, constantly get painted as the good guy, completely ignore that Vikings were the cause of a lot of suffering around Northern Europe. I don't mind games having no social commentary, but I'm not on board with them just completely rewriting history to suit their storyline.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
They seem to punch above their weight on video games though.
Because of Ubisoft, though most of their games are no longer made in France. Per capita Japan is way out in front, the UK is well ahead of France though, our games industry is huge in comparison both in revenue and games developed. Generally in media the UK is out in front across Europe, creative is something the UK does amazingly well.
Ubisoft have been superb at exploiting subsidies (it's not coincidence their Montreal studio generates so much), and at outsourcing lower value work outside Europe and North America.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
Feels like it will come back to bite them eventually. I loved 'the Ubisoft game' when they were getting into merging various elements together, around Black Flag, but I don't think I've bought one since Far Cry 4 since the same thing with a bland story is not worth paying for.
Yeah I tend to buy one AC game per generation which is fine for me. I got Odyssey last time, think I'll probably get the one after the next one if the subject matter is interesting. I'm not interested to play as a murderous rapist Viking being told by the game that I'm the good guy and that Vikings were all lovely and just misunderstood.
AC3, whilst boring, was interesting due to the prologue playing as the Templars doing the same crap you do (though the game was really confused about the bad guys' plan tying into the revolution, seeming to forget they had a finger in each camp), and Unity was interesting as well for showing cooperation even between them. But honestly I was the only person on earth who liked the framing device of the first few, which obviously had to be ditched once it became a yearly thing for the most part.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
My point is that most Frontbenchers are not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
If you google Labour frontbencher the first result is the Labour page for its Shadow Cabinet. If we're talking shadow junior ministers, I don't see what difference it makes, the point is the same which is why you can substitute them if you wish to be pedantic about it.
Losing a Frontbencher outside the Shadow Cabinet is akin to Johnson losing a Junior Minister.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
I'm not on board with them just completely rewriting history to suit their storyline.
Isn't that the framing device's claim about what Absertgo are supposed to be doing - making games with phony presentations of history to spread propaganda? C'est irony, Ubisoft.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
My point is that most Frontbenchers are not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
If you google Labour frontbencher the first result is the Labour page for its Shadow Cabinet. If we're talking shadow junior ministers, I don't see what difference it makes, the point is the same which is why you can substitute them if you wish to be pedantic about it.
Losing a Frontbencher outside the Shadow Cabinet is akin to Johnson losing a Junior Minister.
To be honest, I really don't have a clue what point you are trying to make. Are you under the impression I am trying to play up the significance of any resignations from Starmer's team? I was making the point that people resigning from his team, at any level, is not as big a deal as under Corbyn because he can more easily replace them.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
Which bit are you disputing @benpointer, spanish gp's get paid a lot less? Doctors here get paid the same regardless of origin country?
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
I'm impressed that there's someone in the world who thinks the French model of movie making is one that should be followed. Not even French people think that and have been trying extremely hard to ape our model.
Be all this as it may, the fact remains that Whispering Oracle's endorsement of the French system was based on national self-confidence and self-perception - he said nothing about international success, hence Sean's attempted 'gotcha' about international acclaim for French films was completely fatuous.
I'm not sure where I stand on the quota topic - I raised it as an example of a left wing populist policy, but the fact remains that whilst it is good that British acting and production talent is in demand, the investment comes from the US and the profit goes back there. Nike is considered a successful American trainer company, although most of the trainers are made in China and Vietnam.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
I'm not sure I really agree there. This article is largely rooted in American-financed British productions, and secondarily US-funded European ones. The really interesting cases are the genuine internationally balanced collaborations, and many recent 'British', or UK-made films, fall neither into that or any separate, genuinely national category. The French model of a confident domestic focus, balanced every now and then by breakout international hits, has plenty to show for it.
So, I ask you again, give us a list of these brilliant and influential French movies made since, say, 2000AD.
Nikita Leon Manon de Source Jean de Florette Cyrano de Bergerac
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension
I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
No, that is simply not true. The mutual recognition of Medical and Nursing qualifications ends in less than a weeks time. It is in Boris's Deal. Who am I to argue?
I'm not on board with them just completely rewriting history to suit their storyline.
Isn't that the framing device's claim about what Absertgo are supposed to be doing - making games with phony presentations of history to spread propaganda? C'est irony, Ubisoft.
Yeah the game basically paints Vikings as all around good guys because they had a few female warriors and glosses over the whole raping, slaving and pillaging aspect to the culture because they are "progressive" for allowing women to fight alongside men. It's one of those games where you get the feeling of "am I really playing as the good guy here?" Glad I borrowed it from a friend rather than buying it myself. Gave it back after a few days.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension
I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
Think this is actually my fight big g I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
I can see the Corbynites saying that when it happened to the great man it was displayed as a sign of weakness, but in defence of Starmer, he does not suffer the problem Corbyn had of finding those willing to serve in his Shadow Cabinet in the first place.
But the suggestion refers to Frontbenchers - not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
Potato, potahto. If you wish to substitute Shadow Cabinet for Frontbencher in my post by all means, I don't think even a slightly broader or narrower word usage affects the point.
My point is that most Frontbenchers are not members of the Shadow Cabinet.
If you google Labour frontbencher the first result is the Labour page for its Shadow Cabinet. If we're talking shadow junior ministers, I don't see what difference it makes, the point is the same which is why you can substitute them if you wish to be pedantic about it.
Losing a Frontbencher outside the Shadow Cabinet is akin to Johnson losing a Junior Minister.
To be honest, I really don't have a clue what point you are trying to make. Are you under the impression I am trying to play up the significance of any resignations from Starmer's team? I was making the point that people resigning from his team, at any level, is not as big a deal as under Corbyn because he can more easily replace them.
My comment was intended to be rather casual - informative rather than in any sense critical. There have been comments on here in the past from people who appear to assume that all Frontbenchers sit in the Shadow CAbinet.I made no assumption that that applied to yourself.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
No, that is simply not true. The mutual recognition of Medical and Nursing qualifications ends in less than a weeks time. It is in Boris's Deal. Who am I to argue?
The end of mutual recognition doesnt mean we will end recognition it merely means we can if we wish too. If we decide spanish qualifications are fine we can say so
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
Surely not enough whorehouses for, err, Leon.
The idea that we are somehow to be proud of that shitefest of a programme (appreciate it's a minority view) and it projects 'British soft power' because the programme-makers knew that Texan drawls would sound stupid coming from people in chain mail is one of the dafter ideas I've come across today.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
Which bit are you disputing @benpointer, spanish gp's get paid a lot less? Doctors here get paid the same regardless of origin country?
Since you ask, it was the part where you said of @Foxy: "You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
I'd hazard a guess that you know as little of @Foxy's actual circumstances, challenges, etc. as I do but you're happy to pass judgement.
If you want to find out more about the 'featherbedded' life of a docotr working in the NHS This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay is a good read.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
Starmer should do a walk of shame - for sitting in Corbyn's shadow cabinet as Labour (being generous) turned a blind eye to the anti-semites in their midst.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
Which bit are you disputing @benpointer, spanish gp's get paid a lot less? Doctors here get paid the same regardless of origin country?
Since you ask, it was the part where you said of @Foxy: "You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
I'd hazard a guess that you know as little of @Foxy's actual circumstances, challenges, etc. as I do but you're happy to pass judgement.
If you want to find out more about the 'featherbedded' life of a docotr working in the NHS This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay is a good read.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.
Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.
There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.
The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.
The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?
They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.
The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.
There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films
Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.
What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.
Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
Surely not enough whorehouses for, err, Leon.
The idea that we are somehow to be proud of that shitefest of a programme (appreciate it's a minority view) and it projects 'British soft power' because the programme-makers knew that Texan drawls would sound stupid coming from people in chain mail is one of the dafter ideas I've come across today.
Does the same go for most claims of TV/Film 'soft power' though? I confess whilst I think it great so much stuff gets filmed and made here, I'm not sure, for instance, if the 'soft power' of, say, Lord of the Rings being filmed in New Zealand really means anything. I mean, so was Xena, what of it?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.
I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.
What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
Which bit are you disputing @benpointer, spanish gp's get paid a lot less? Doctors here get paid the same regardless of origin country?
Since you ask it was the part where you said of @Foxy: "You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
I'd hazard a guess that you know as little of @Foxy's actual circumstances, challenges, etc. as I do but you're happy to pass judgement.
If you want to find out more about the 'featherbedded' life of a docotr working in the NHS This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay is a good read.
Comments
Good, clear the deadwood
Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.
I would hope we could elect 650 MPs who knew what they believed in and weren't afraid to articulate it,
But great drama is made across Europe now, so I see no reason to single out France. Gomorrah (first two seasons) was fabulous Italian drama. We all know about The Killing (Denmark, Season 1) arguably the best single season of a TV drama ever made. Britain has made tons, from Black Mirror to Broadchurch to Peaky Blinders. Etc.
TV drama is in a golden age worldwide. It started in America - as the Renaissance started in Italy - but like the Renaissance, others have copied and even improved.
It's a good example of a number that sounds impressively large, but is really pitifully low.
I can only assume that supply constraints prevent anything more ambitious.
The more apt question might be : which films are sustaining France's self-confidence, cohesion and domestic industry ? Unlike the UK, they don't really care if commercially successful films like Amelie, La Vie En Rose, Amour or The Artist are, contentiously, considered influential, soft power exports, if they don't work for them.
Sure, people can make arguments about what he had to do to get a deal done in that time and the negatives of that in their view, but it makes it a more complicated argument than initially presented, the same as Boris promising things would continue and now having to explain why that might not be the case (though with things like Erasmus, it's minor enough to not gain much traction).
Don't think she will resign though
There are 2 universities in Bath, packed with science departments.
No one who is a scientist, or who has any scientific training, is going to be impressed by Wera Hobhouse, Friend of the Whack-Jobs.
Wera will lose many more votes than she gains. It is very stupid & short-sighted.
YouTube is bigger and better.
But like so much it is no doubt part of the rumour mill
And I was very good personal friends with an important Labour minister in the seventies
I mean, the 'damage' some of them might fear from Labour backing it will already occur as Starmer and presumably most of the MPs will back it, so tactically there's not much point in resigning or getting sacked, and on moral grounds, well, few will believe no deal is better than a bad deal and there's no point in seeing it as a vote 'for' Brexit at this point as that's already happened.
So while I'd not feel great about being whipped to vote for it, it isn't that big a deal.
Very average games (all they produce is near identical open world stuff), but a great business.
Indeed we were family friends
Maybe not new stuff but most new stuff is crap in any case.
https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/inactivated-flu-vaccine
Summat to be fervently patriotic about I should cocoa.
But with cutesy graphics.
I quite enjoyed Watch Dogs Legion, until the utterly ridiculous plot wore me down. (The Oval Cricket ground was converted into the European Processing Centre, which was a concentration camp full of immigrants.)
Gets the Brexit trade deal signed off and approved and the hit reset and select CMs on merit not purity
But I am glad to see that you have come around to free movement of European immigrant Labour. We will make a Europhile of you yet.
Yeah the story in a lot of these games are quite eye roll worthy. AC Valhalla suffers from that for me, play as a Viking, raid villages and kill civilians, constantly get painted as the good guy, completely ignore that Vikings were the cause of a lot of suffering around Northern Europe. I don't mind games having no social commentary, but I'm not on board with them just completely rewriting history to suit their storyline.
There is a poll but on covid rules over Christmas
I'm not sure where I stand on the quota topic - I raised it as an example of a left wing populist policy, but the fact remains that whilst it is good that British acting and production talent is in demand, the investment comes from the US and the profit goes back there. Nike is considered a successful American trainer company, although most of the trainers are made in China and Vietnam.
Leon
Manon de Source
Jean de Florette
Cyrano de Bergerac
Although all before 2000 I assume
It has been kind of noticable all these former politicians and fossilised backbenchers who get knighthoods and the former PMs are not.
I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
I'd hazard a guess that you know as little of @Foxy's actual circumstances, challenges, etc. as I do but you're happy to pass judgement.
If you want to find out more about the 'featherbedded' life of a docotr working in the NHS This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay is a good read.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/this-is-going-to-hurt/adam-kay/9781509858637
Do you deny all doctors have the same contract independent of where they were born?
The answer to both is no.
Therefore doctors have not been ever subject to pay competion