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Speed reading – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4 said:

    Speaking of books, I have been gifted this holiday season with the Ian Dale edited book on Prime Ministers (there was time for Boris to write a brief forward), and a history of the Popes by John Julius Norwich. Should be fun stuff.

    Saw JJN talking about popes at a literary festival a few years ago. There was a pious catholic lady in the audience and I was afraid she might expire when he started describing their unseemly personal habits in meticulous detail.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    MaxPB said:

    A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.

    As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.

    Yes, the people taking about this as the beginning of a new war are kidding themselves. This is the beginning of a new chapter, one that is hopefully going to be much more peaceful era of relations for both parties.

    With the political heat taken out of the relationship there will now be a lot of opportunities to build on the deal outside of the spotlight now that no one cares.
    Amazing how Remainers don't want to hear this.....
  • Some revealing quotes:

    "But who cares about them." for those who continuously complain about remainers not caring about everyone else, and

    "Had we left without a deal, and the country been plunged into an even deeper crisis by the combination of that and the pandemic, I honestly don’t think I would have been able to live with myself. And I think if they’re honest with themselves, so would many other of my fellow Brexiteers." for those who think we were ever serious about no deal or that it would have been fine.
    ‘if they’re honest with themselves’

    Don’t hold your breath, luv.
    Actually..
  • Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
  • Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    Just watched DIG, with Ralph Fiennes and Carey Mulligan, about the Sutton Hoo dig and discoveries (one of the Good Lady WIfi's few BAFTA screeners). It starts with some terribly leaden expositional dialogue, but looks beautiful with great period detail and improves as it goes along. Seems quite faitful to reality, as far as I can tell.

    I think it comes out on Netflix next month.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    MaxPB said:

    A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.

    As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.

    Yes, the people taking about this as the beginning of a new war are kidding themselves. This is the beginning of a new chapter, one that is hopefully going to be much more peaceful era of relations for both parties.

    With the political heat taken out of the relationship there will now be a lot of opportunities to build on the deal outside of the spotlight now that no one cares.
    Amazing how Remainers don't want to hear this.....
    Politics runs in cycles.

    I don't see why former Remainers can't spend the next few years making a positive argument for future harmonisation with the EU. It is the same argument that allowed Bill Cash and his chums to make the opposite point of view over the last forty years, rather successfully, as it happens.

    Maybe, there will be a lazy newspaper columnist in the next few years, who is constantly late with his copy, and to compensate, quickly makes up positive comedic stories about the EU.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    No doubt, I am sure. But win we must.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    IanB2 said:

    Some food for thought

    - on December 20th, 521,594 people had received their first jab
    - 366,715 of those were over 80
    - So 70%
    - the number vaccinated now stands at over 800k - so assuming the proportion holds, 560k over 80s
    - There are 3.2 million over 80s in the UK
    - They made up 54% of the death toll of COVID
    - for 17.5% of the over 80s have received their first shot
    - Estimates for the protection from the first shot range from 50-70%

    So if the efficacy is 50% I make it that would mean a 4.7% drop in the fatality rate. Already.

    6.6% if it is 70% effective on the first shot.

    So slow. Like Blair says, they need to get a move on.
    That's possibly a little churlish: it's still early days and the difficulties of using the BioNTech shot are well-rehearsed.

    Let's wait and see if the Oxford project gets the green light and comes into use at the start of the New Year. If they're not up to at least a million jabs a week (though, granted, we could really do with two million) by the end of next month, then we might start to cluck over the pedestrian nature of the effort.
  • 2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    The Government know this very well, and it will be interesting to see the strategy for engaging with it over the next 6 months. I'd put almost all HMG attention on it once the back of Covid is broken - hopefully, by Easter - and there will certainly be cats to be pulled out of bags.

    Whether it's enough to make it competitive or not, I'm not sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Four cases of new strain of covid in Madrid, spreading around Europe, where and who is traveling?
  • Finally, Edinburgh gets what it always wanted.

    https://twitter.com/magicalplaces4/status/1342790311047794688?s=21
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    .
    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    So they are going to vote for no deal? :D
  • Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Some food for thought

    - on December 20th, 521,594 people had received their first jab
    - 366,715 of those were over 80
    - So 70%
    - the number vaccinated now stands at over 800k - so assuming the proportion holds, 560k over 80s
    - There are 3.2 million over 80s in the UK
    - They made up 54% of the death toll of COVID
    - for 17.5% of the over 80s have received their first shot
    - Estimates for the protection from the first shot range from 50-70%

    So if the efficacy is 50% I make it that would mean a 4.7% drop in the fatality rate. Already.

    6.6% if it is 70% effective on the first shot.

    So slow. Like Blair says, they need to get a move on.
  • 2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    The Government know this very well, and it will be interesting to see the strategy for engaging with it over the next 6 months. I'd put almost all HMG attention on it once the back of Covid is broken - hopefully, by Easter - and there will certainly be cats to be pulled out of bags.

    Whether it's enough to make it competitive or not, I'm not sure.

    Slightly over four months actually, though if BJ and his crew want to be aiming at 26/06/21 that’ll be just dandy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    Mostly, governments lose elections
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    No doubt, I am sure. But win we must.
    Ok, good. I agree one-party states aren't good for democracy.

    Sure, you'll never win over my vote (I'm a core Conservative bedrock voter) but I am well aware what could reduce us to the floor of c.30% or less, and peel away our soft voters, and you're not doing it.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    MaxPB said:

    A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.

    As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.

    Yes, the people taking about this as the beginning of a new war are kidding themselves. This is the beginning of a new chapter, one that is hopefully going to be much more peaceful era of relations for both parties.

    With the political heat taken out of the relationship there will now be a lot of opportunities to build on the deal outside of the spotlight now that no one cares.
    Amazing how Remainers don't want to hear this.....
    Politics runs in cycles.

    I don't see why former Remainers can't spend the next few years making a positive argument for future harmonisation with the EU. It is the same argument that allowed Bill Cash and his chums to make the opposite point of view over the last forty years, rather successfully, as it happens.

    Maybe, there will be a lazy newspaper columnist in the next few years, who is constantly late with his copy, and to compensate, quickly makes up positive comedic stories about the EU.
    Who's going to generate positive propaganda for the EU? And, more to the point, who (apart from the already converted, who aren't the essential audience for such things) will want to listen?

    Rejoining is going to be a project like republicanism - the kind of thing that might score 20% or even 30% approval in opinion polls conducted on that specific subject, but will, in reality, be a fringe part of the political discourse of real interest only to hardcore obsessives. Somewhere below, to pluck an example out of thin air, fishing quotas in terms of the extent to which it animates average Joe Public.
  • 2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    The Government know this very well, and it will be interesting to see the strategy for engaging with it over the next 6 months. I'd put almost all HMG attention on it once the back of Covid is broken - hopefully, by Easter - and there will certainly be cats to be pulled out of bags.

    Whether it's enough to make it competitive or not, I'm not sure.

    Slightly over four months actually, though if BJ and his crew want to be aiming at 26/06/21 that’ll be just dandy.
    The aftermath will also be important.

    The Scottish Parliamentary elections themselves are a foregone conclusion.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,728

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
  • RobD said:

    .

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    So they are going to vote for no deal? :D
    He's the smug class squirt that no-one speaks to in the playground and has no friends, isn't he?

    Sure, that's unkind and unfair - as is politics all over - but I also suspect that it's true.
  • Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    You are right that for Corbyn's Labour patriotism was their weakest link and made them very unlikely to win.

    Under Starmer it is probably still a weakness but nowhere near as problematic. Their biggest problems are now Scotland where they have no answer, and that England is essentially a politically right of centre conservative space, so if the govt is doing well they have no chance regardless.

    Cyclefree wrote a very insightful reply to one of your posts on patriotism, it comes across that you see it in too narrow a way, only your version of patriotism is appropriate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    Mostly, governments lose elections
    But wobbly Governments can survive with the help of an enfeebled Opposition. See 2017.
    nichomar said:

    Four cases of new strain of covid in Madrid, spreading around Europe, where and who is traveling?

    Could easily be a case of the exact same mutation arising de novo in more than one place (the same thing happens with genetic diseases) or it could've been present in Spain for some time and this is simply the first occasion on which it has actually been detected.

    As has recently been discussed on PB, most countries have such low capacity for genomic sequencing that their surveillance systems are essentially blind to the range of viral strains in circulation.
  • RobD said:

    Finally, Edinburgh gets what it always wanted.

    https://twitter.com/magicalplaces4/status/1342790311047794688?s=21

    HYUFD has been quite successful on his lightning strike of the central belt I see. Excellent work, comrade chairman.
    Edinburgh, part (as was) of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria :lol:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_xP said:
    Placeholder numbers if there isn't any renegotiation of the quotas. They aren't exactly going to put EU: 0, are they, because the figures will be subject to the annual negotiation on fishing quotas, as with any other costal state.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    Because grievance is their main weapon and they'll keep using it because it works. Realpolitik.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    Because grievance is their main weapon and they'll keep using it because it works. Realpolitik.
    Doesn't mean she isn't right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    RobD said:

    Finally, Edinburgh gets what it always wanted.

    https://twitter.com/magicalplaces4/status/1342790311047794688?s=21

    HYUFD has been quite successful on his lightning strike of the central belt I see. Excellent work, comrade chairman.
    Today, Edinburgh. Tomorrow...actually, that's plenty.
  • It's a good point actually. If you want to understand the implications Treaty (TCA or TACA, whatever you prefer to call it) read the annexes.

    That's where the detail of what things mean, and how they will take effect, really is.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Finally, Edinburgh gets what it always wanted.

    https://twitter.com/magicalplaces4/status/1342790311047794688?s=21

    HYUFD has been quite successful on his lightning strike of the central belt I see. Excellent work, comrade chairman.
    Today, Edinburgh. Tomorrow...actually, that's plenty.
    Should have seen the bombers as they took off from RAF Epping Forest. A glorious sight.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Lady.
  • kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nearly time for the Family Zoom, so time for a little joke:

    Breaking News: The whole of Cornwall has been placed into tier 4 lockdown after hundreds of pirates returned home to Penzance to celebrate Christmas with their families.

    Apparently the Arrrrr rate has increased dramatically.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9ojK9Q_ARE
    Barbossa was the best part of that movie. Silly, yes, but not as self consciously 'quirky' as Jack Sparrow.
    The entrance by Jack Sparrow into Port Royal was magnificent.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rWai38hti8
    Hold up there, you. It's a shilling to tie up your boat at the dock... and I shall need to know your name.

    What do you say to three shillings and we forget the name.

    Welcome to Port Royal, Mr. Smith.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Omnium said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Lady.
    Yeah, HYUFD's wording was indeed clumsy there. But the outrage is ridiculous when you compare it to what is said of Johnson on here.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2020
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just annoyed with the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    In fairness, a bit edge-judgement, but the more HYUFD posts like that, the more hostages to fortune in the future, as both I and others have reminded him. That was the tenor of my comment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
  • The uplifts in fish appear to be in anglerfish, cod, saithe, hake, herring and whiting, particularly off the west coast of Scotland and North Sea.

    Much more stable in the Channel (i.e. very little change) which presumably is grist to Macron.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
    There are people who love the guy and people who hate the guy who both simply call him Boris, outside of out and out insults I don't think how one refers to him denotes specific levels of respect.
  • RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
    Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.

    That should tell us a lot.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
    Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.

    That should tell us a lot.
    To be fair I was the one being too sensitive there.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    HYUFD said:
    Attracting the votes, en masse, of the educated is a bad thing?
    Also. He should look up what a Brahmin actually is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
  • Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    You are right that for Corbyn's Labour patriotism was their weakest link and made them very unlikely to win.

    Under Starmer it is probably still a weakness but nowhere near as problematic. Their biggest problems are now Scotland where they have no answer, and that England is essentially a politically right of centre conservative space, so if the govt is doing well they have no chance regardless.

    Cyclefree wrote a very insightful reply to one of your posts on patriotism, it comes across that you see it in too narrow a way, only your version of patriotism is appropriate.
    Not at all, and you if read my original blog you'll see I highlighted the importance of accommodating multiple and overlapping identities.

    But, that's not an either or choice - if you want that you have to (must) accept the English and British ones, fully and wholeheartedly, too.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_xP said:
    He said this before the negotiations had started. After they had, he found out the ridiculous demands the EU were putting on membership. Hard to get worked up about that to be honest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:
    Attracting the votes, en masse, of the educated is a bad thing?
    Also. He should look up what a Brahmin actually is.
    Pointing out that it happens is not necessarily stating it is a bad thing. Though over reliance on any one group can be a bad thing if it distorts your relationship with other groups or leads you to think that group is all you need to focus on. Fortunately that didn't happen with the Democrats this time around, but it was still too close for comfort in several states.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries

    The fishing industry doesn't agree with you - especially as it remembers Ted Heath's betrayal.

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    Because grievance is their main weapon and they'll keep using it because it works. Realpolitik.
    Doesn't mean she isn't right.
    Ah, but the more important fact is that it doesn't matter whether she's right or not. She could just as easily claim that the Evil Tories were planning to tow the entire Scottish fishing fleet out to sea and burn it in one massive floating bonfire. With all the fishermen tied up onboard. And be believed.

    We are well past the point at which reality has any meaning to any argument involving independence, which is essentially any political argument that takes place in Scotland. That will continue until there is independence. The game's up, and the Minister for the Union knows it. That's why the next referendum is coming, but not until he's out of the way.

    Scottish secession is the hemlock that the next (minority) Labour Government is going to be forced to drink.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
    Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.

    I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.

    There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.

    Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,728
    RobD said:

    He said this before the negotiations had started. After they had, he found out the ridiculous demands the EU were putting on membership. Hard to get worked up about that to be honest.

    The important point is that people round the World know he's a liar, and are pointing it out.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
    Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.

    That should tell us a lot.
    To be fair I was the one being too sensitive there.
    Fair enough.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    He said this before the negotiations had started. After they had, he found out the ridiculous demands the EU were putting on membership. Hard to get worked up about that to be honest.

    The important point is that people round the World know he's a liar, and are pointing it out.
    It's quite ridiculous frankly. He can't be held accountable for the stupidity of the EU's demands. Given he has already announced a replacement scheme, I fail to see what the outrage is all about.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    HYUFD said:
    Alternatively the decline of the educated right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    He said this before the negotiations had started. After they had, he found out the ridiculous demands the EU were putting on membership. Hard to get worked up about that to be honest.

    The important point is that people round the World know he's a liar, and are pointing it out.
    And still deal with him, because that's life and politics. Mr Bildt was a Prime Minister, I'm sure he had to deal with other leaders who were liars, at home or abroad, in his time. If you want to argue Boris is egregiously bad, fine, but having an online orgasm every time a foreign politician shows they dislike him is a little over the top.

    It's too exhausing for a start.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
    I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.

    What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though :)

    The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.

    Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    Because grievance is their main weapon and they'll keep using it because it works. Realpolitik.
    Doesn't mean she isn't right.
    Ah, but the more important fact is that it doesn't matter whether she's right or not. She could just as easily claim that the Evil Tories were planning to tow the entire Scottish fishing fleet out to sea and burn it in one massive floating bonfire. With all the fishermen tied up onboard. And be believed.

    We are well past the point at which reality has any meaning to any argument involving independence, which is essentially any political argument that takes place in Scotland. That will continue until there is independence. The game's up, and the Minister for the Union knows it. That's why the next referendum is coming, but not until he's out of the way.

    Scottish secession is the hemlock that the next (minority) Labour Government is going to be forced to drink.
    This Tory government will never allow a legal indyref2, Starmer Labour might but only as part of a Federal UK with devomax for Holyrood and regional assemblies for England
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    You're imaging a scenario of the UK being under the SNP? I'm getting a sense of the wilder reaches of HYUFD world.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    She's talking about execution by beheading? With an axe...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited December 2020
    This just arrived from the Mirror. Idiots guide to the deal. I must say I've never seen less enthusiasm from anything a governments done since the illegal invasion of Iraq.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/eu-releases-brutal-graphic-shows-23218056?__twitter_impression=true&utm_campaign=exchange&utm_medium=display&utm_source=taboola
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:
    Attracting the votes, en masse, of the educated is a bad thing?
    Also. He should look up what a Brahmin actually is.
    Pointing out that it happens is not necessarily stating it is a bad thing. Though over reliance on any one group can be a bad thing if it distorts your relationship with other groups or leads you to think that group is all you need to focus on. Fortunately that didn't happen with the Democrats this time around, but it was still too close for comfort in several states.
    The words Mr Goodwin used "Rise of the Brahmin left". Suggest he sees it negatively.
    He could have said "Collapse of the intelligent Right", for example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2020
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries

    The fishing industry doesn't agree with you - especially as it remembers Ted Heath's betrayal.

    'Barrie Deas, the chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations (NFFO)....said the government had been successful in “having fought off EU’s attempts to tie the UK back into common fisheries policy-like arrangements”. He said this would allow the UK to “develop and apply its own fisheries management systems, tailored to its own fisheries.”

    'The UK Fisheries chief executive, Jane Sandell, said: “We’re pleased that the UK-EU deal will bring some kind of certainty to parts of our industry''

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    He said this before the negotiations had started. After they had, he found out the ridiculous demands the EU were putting on membership. Hard to get worked up about that to be honest.

    The important point is that people round the World know he's a liar, and are pointing it out.
    It's quite ridiculous frankly. He can't be held accountable for the stupidity of the EU's demands. Given he has already announced a replacement scheme, I fail to see what the outrage is all about.
    I say again, surely there is a better example to use here? There has to be something that we have lost and are not getting a replacement for?
    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
    I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.

    What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though :)

    The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.

    Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.

    I imagine the issue is one of differentiation. If Labour are backing it, messily or otherwise, the LDs can get some attention by being against it.

    Unfortunately for them, the SNP make for a better headline in opposition as they can speak as the dominant force in Scotland. Add to that if the LDs could not do well during a bad result for Corbyn, and I worry what differentiation can even work.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,728
    kle4 said:

    If you want to argue Boris is egregiously bad, fine, but having an online orgasm every time a foreign politician shows they dislike him is a little over the top.

    All I did was post the tweet.

    You guys seem to be the ones "worked up" about it...
  • Hey, it's pretty unfair to knock Patel for being willing to perform the beheadings herself when Eddard Stark got nothing but praise for the same policy.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    HYUFD said:

    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing ...

    Well, bile is her stock in trade.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    RobD said:

    He said this before the negotiations had started. After they had, he found out the ridiculous demands the EU were putting on membership. Hard to get worked up about that to be honest.

    The important point is that people round the World know he's a liar, and are pointing it out.
    It's quite ridiculous frankly. He can't be held accountable for the stupidity of the EU's demands. Given he has already announced a replacement scheme, I fail to see what the outrage is all about.
    I say again, surely there is a better example to use here? There has to be something that we have lost and are not getting a replacement for?
    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
    I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.

    What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though :)

    The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.

    Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.

    I imagine the issue is one of differentiation. If Labour are backing it, messily or otherwise, the LDs can get some attention by being against it.

    Unfortunately for them, the SNP make for a better headline in opposition as they can speak as the dominant force in Scotland. Add to that if the LDs could not do well during a bad result for Corbyn, and I worry what differentiation can even work.
    The LDs got 11% in 2019 and 11 seats and won 4 MPs in Scotland compared to just 1 for Labour
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries

    The fishing industry doesn't agree with you - especially as it remembers Ted Heath's betrayal.

    'Barrie Deas, the chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations (NFFO)....said the government had been successful in “having fought off EU’s attempts to tie the UK back into common fisheries policy-like arrangements”. He said this would allow the UK to “develop and apply its own fisheries management systems, tailored to its own fisheries.”

    'The UK Fisheries chief executive, Jane Sandell, said: “We’re pleased that the UK-EU deal will bring some kind of certainty to parts of our industry''

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries
    You should read the rest of that piece - all about the sacrifice of fishing.
  • Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries

    The fishing industry doesn't agree with you - especially as it remembers Ted Heath's betrayal.

    As someone wisely observed on here last week(sorry, forgotten who), winning manifestos are the ones that have to be defended, losing manifestos are pixels lost in time, like tears in the rain. In the great rightwing tradition of avoiding responsibility for everything, Tory Unionism's m.o. is harping on what might have happened under alternative stewardship while studiously avoiding their own record. Seems to be working a treat so far.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:
    Attracting the votes, en masse, of the educated is a bad thing?
    Also. He should look up what a Brahmin actually is.
    Pointing out that it happens is not necessarily stating it is a bad thing. Though over reliance on any one group can be a bad thing if it distorts your relationship with other groups or leads you to think that group is all you need to focus on. Fortunately that didn't happen with the Democrats this time around, but it was still too close for comfort in several states.
    The words Mr Goodwin used "Rise of the Brahmin left". Suggest he sees it negatively.
    He could have said "Collapse of the intelligent Right", for example.
    Yes, he probably does, which is why I put in the bits about how it could lead to bad things even if not a bad thing in itself. The 'Oh, so we need to be racist and stupid to win elections' reaction that is, hopefully, pretty rare, is an example of how it might be possible to focus on one group to the overall detriment.

    I'm not about to buy everything Goodwin sells, but 'attracting the votes, en masse, of the educated is a bad thing?' seems like the wrong question, since getting a lot of support with any group is not bad in itself, but can have unintended effects if it were the only group votes were being attracted in. Though as I said, fortunately that wasn't the case with the Democrats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries

    The fishing industry doesn't agree with you - especially as it remembers Ted Heath's betrayal.

    'Barrie Deas, the chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations (NFFO)....said the government had been successful in “having fought off EU’s attempts to tie the UK back into common fisheries policy-like arrangements”. He said this would allow the UK to “develop and apply its own fisheries management systems, tailored to its own fisheries.”

    'The UK Fisheries chief executive, Jane Sandell, said: “We’re pleased that the UK-EU deal will bring some kind of certainty to parts of our industry''

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries
    You should read the rest of that piece - all about the sacrifice of fishing.
    Under Sturgeon all Scottish fishing would have been sacrificed to the EU with not a single Scottish fish reclaimed from Scottish waters for Scottish boats
  • Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    If you want to argue Boris is egregiously bad, fine, but having an online orgasm every time a foreign politician shows they dislike him is a little over the top.

    All I did was post the tweet.

    You guys seem to be the ones "worked up" about it...
    And here is a tweet that shows the extent to which you have failed

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1342873077852626944?s=19
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    Hey, it's pretty unfair to knock Patel for being willing to perform the beheadings herself when Eddard Stark got nothing but praise for the same policy.

    Inventive questioning and honest answers I guess.

    If you think that there is any appropriate occasion for execution then a corollary has to be that you'd be prepared to execute the sentence.

  • johntjohnt Posts: 86
    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
    I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.

    What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though :)

    The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.

    Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.

    Maybe he thinks that the deal is a bad deal for the UK. That would be a sensible reason to vote against it.

    It gives the EU what it needs in terms of access for manufacturing but sells out the UK service sector.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    It's because your party promised and lied and didn't deliver. Especially as it excluded the Scottish Government from as much involvement in the Eu fisheries discussions before Brexit, and then also from the negotiationds after.

    It's your proud Tory Party Fishy Brexit. Go on, admit it. Take every last little bit of credit.
    Under this Deal the value of the fish caught by the EU in UK waters will be cut by 25%. The cut will be phased in over a transition period lasting five and a half years. Once the transition period is over, the UK will fully control access to its waters.

    Under the SNP there would have been no extra UK access to its waters at all
    Because there wouldn't be a UK!!

    Your party promisedf 100% fish from day 1 on year 1. The fishermen think so and have been saying so very loudly. They feel betrayed.
    Nope, the SNP would still have handed all Scottish fishing waters over to the EU, the only betrayal of fishermen was by the SNP
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries

    The fishing industry doesn't agree with you - especially as it remembers Ted Heath's betrayal.

    'Barrie Deas, the chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations (NFFO)....said the government had been successful in “having fought off EU’s attempts to tie the UK back into common fisheries policy-like arrangements”. He said this would allow the UK to “develop and apply its own fisheries management systems, tailored to its own fisheries.”

    'The UK Fisheries chief executive, Jane Sandell, said: “We’re pleased that the UK-EU deal will bring some kind of certainty to parts of our industry''

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/26/fishing-industry-brexit-deal-eu-fisheries
    You should read the rest of that piece - all about the sacrifice of fishing.
    Under Sturgeon all Scottish fishing would have been sacrificed to the EU with not a single Scottish fish reclaimed from Scottish waters for Scottish boats
    Your party won, your party made the mess, take the credit for it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    The tell tale signs this is complete bullshit are:

    (1) It's obviously not true
    (2) There's no actual link to a news article, just a photoshopped image
    (3) There are 666 comments
    (4) The author of the piece is "Gordon Hangman"

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
    Because grievance is their main weapon and they'll keep using it because it works. Realpolitik.
    Doesn't mean she isn't right.
    Ah, but the more important fact is that it doesn't matter whether she's right or not. She could just as easily claim that the Evil Tories were planning to tow the entire Scottish fishing fleet out to sea and burn it in one massive floating bonfire. With all the fishermen tied up onboard. And be believed.

    We are well past the point at which reality has any meaning to any argument involving independence, which is essentially any political argument that takes place in Scotland. That will continue until there is independence. The game's up, and the Minister for the Union knows it. That's why the next referendum is coming, but not until he's out of the way.

    Scottish secession is the hemlock that the next (minority) Labour Government is going to be forced to drink.
    This Tory government will never allow a legal indyref2, Starmer Labour might but only as part of a Federal UK with devomax for Holyrood and regional assemblies for England
    Any future Labour Government is highly likely to be in a significant Parliamentary minority and beholden to the SNP for votes. The price of the votes will be an independence referendum, which Labour will either have to concede or go back to the country again.

    We should not be fooled into thinking that a Hung Parliament with the SNP controlling the balance of power would allow Labour to issue ultimatums to them, just because the SNP cannot back the Tories instead. They could back Labour in a vote of confidence but wreck a Labour administration by sinking its legislative program one bill at a time.

    Labour returns as largest party in the Commons, Labour loses indyref 2, Labour Government destroyed, English Tories return to power stronger than before. It's the horrible fate that Starmer, or one of his successors, cannot ultimately avoid.
  • RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
    So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
    Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
    Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.

    That should tell us a lot.
    Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,705
    johnt said:

    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
    I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.

    What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though :)

    The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.

    Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.

    Maybe he thinks that the deal is a bad deal for the UK. That would be a sensible reason to vote against it.

    It gives the EU what it needs in terms of access for manufacturing but sells out the UK service sector.
    Compared to No Deal?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
    Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.

    I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.

    There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.

    Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
    Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,117
    rcs1000 said:

    The tell tale signs this is complete bullshit are:

    (1) It's obviously not true
    (2) There's no actual link to a news article, just a photoshopped image
    (3) There are 666 comments
    (4) The author of the piece is "Gordon Hangman"

    What does Gordon have to do with it? Not as if he was called 'Albert' (after Pierrepoint)/
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    johnt said:

    Omnium said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    So the LDs confirm they will join the SNP and vote against the Deal

    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1342847640871047171?s=20

    LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?

    Brexit has made for strange politics.
    I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.

    What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though :)

    The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.

    Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.

    Maybe he thinks that the deal is a bad deal for the UK. That would be a sensible reason to vote against it.

    It gives the EU what it needs in terms of access for manufacturing but sells out the UK service sector.
    It will be a bad deal for the UK. Brexit certainly entailed a step back. So far as I can see it's a modest step back.

    (I voted for Brexit and always thought it'd be bad in the short term and a bit safer and probably better in the long term)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    If you want to argue Boris is egregiously bad, fine, but having an online orgasm every time a foreign politician shows they dislike him is a little over the top.

    All I did was post the tweet.

    You guys seem to be the ones "worked up" about it...
    You have admitted in the past you post specific tweets to make a point, you aren't typically just randomly posting interesting things. And you know perfectly well that when someone criticises Boris you post such things very eagerly, with relish and enjoyment.

    Which is fine, I like your posting tweets of things. But don't insult everyone's intelligence by pretending, in this instance, that you don't agree with it's point absolutely. Not least because in a follow up to RobD you made clear why you posted it, because 'The important point is that people round the World know he's a liar, and are pointing it out'.

    So no, you didn't just 'post the tweet', you explained your interpretation of the tweet and why it was significant. Which is good. Better than simply posting it in fact. But shows it would be a lie to claim that you did not have a specific point to make by posting the tweet. You had a point, and you made it.

    I've insulted Boris repeatedly, I even said people should consider voting for Corbyn, who I loathe, so we could get a second referendum by defeating Boris, so I don't even know who you mean by 'you guys' as though there is some pro-Boris agenda at work here. There really isn't.

    My point was that people thinking Boris is a liar, which he often is, is not as significant or unique a situation as you think it is. It has nothing to do with getting worked up about it, it's that you get overexcited by mundanities.

    Disagree with that if you like, but please don't suggest you didn't have a point to make, as you did. You told us what the point was in fact. So people responding, for any reason, is not getting worked up by a tweet, it is responding to your point, whether or not you were explicit in your initial posting.

    The assumption you posted it to point out Boris is a liar was responded to, and you then confirmed that was indeed your point. So why pretend now that is not what you were doing?

    It's like you're embarrassed you were making a point, not just posting a tweet. Don't be.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869



    Any future Labour Government is highly likely to be in a significant Parliamentary minority and beholden to the SNP for votes. The price of the votes will be an independence referendum, which Labour will either have to concede or go back to the country again.

    We should not be fooled into thinking that a Hung Parliament with the SNP controlling the balance of power would allow Labour to issue ultimatums to them, just because the SNP cannot back the Tories instead. They could back Labour in a vote of confidence but wreck a Labour administration by sinking its legislative program one bill at a time.

    Labour returns as largest party in the Commons, Labour loses indyref 2, Labour Government destroyed, English Tories return to power stronger than before. It's the horrible fate that Starmer, or one of his successors, cannot ultimately avoid.

    I think that if the SNP had the imagination & vision to set up an English/Welsh partner-party, with high quality candidates who themselves had the imagination & vision for a way forward for England/Wales given an independent Scotland, they could very well find themselves with a majority of their own in Westminster.

    Whatever your politics, Ms Sturgeon is an impressive operator. I think people would welcome a genuine alternative.

    Good evening, everyone.

    (I accidentally posted this at the end of the previous thread, sorry for the duplication.)
This discussion has been closed.