Re the LibDems, they have to vote against the deal.
The Conservative and Labour Party have monopolised the centre on this. They can't outflank UKIP or the Tory Right. They will probably make EEA their future policy, and they want to be in the position to say "well, of course we voted against the deal because we wanted EEA." That's a hell of a lot easier message to sell than "of course, we voted for the Deal because really we were voting against No Deal, and actually we want EEA."
Especially as there is no actual risk of No Deal happening.
Plus given every single current LD held constituency voted Remain there is nothing for them to lose unlike the Tories and Labour from being the party of diehard Remainers at Westminster anyway
It's a no brainer for the LDs to oppose anything with "Brexit" in the title.
And as the only major British party not tortured by the issue they will be hoping it retains its juice.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Fewer Brits rely on the fishing industry for employment than on Harrods. Or House of Fraser. Or pretty much any high street retail name most people have heard of.
But a lot more French people do, which was, after all, the point.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Over half the British quota has been sold to EU fleets by British fishermen themselves.
Yes because a lot of those fisherman had no choice, they were catching x before we joined. On joining immediately half the british fish got allocated to other countries as part of the common fishing policies. Leaving us with half x.
Over the next decade or so due to the crapness of the common fishing policy more and more species became overfished and x decreased.
If you care to suggest how an independent skipper can keep a boat and crew running when they are only allowed to fish 6 weeks of the year then feel free to expound.
Selling something when your choice is either go bankrupt or sell is not a choice.
That's not the only issue.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
No, LD heartlands are now SW London, West Oxford and West Edinburgh not the SW of England
It will depend how badly the sell out of British fishermen goes down. I would expect large parts of the SW to feel that they have been used by the government. The SW will be badly damaged by brexit and the failure to get the single benefit we were told we would get is unlikely to go down well.
I think that there is a misconception that people wanted Brexit for the sake of it. They wanted Brexit because they were told it would make their life better. If life in the SW does not improve the Tories are likely to be in trouble.
If those SW fishermen dislike the Deal they will go to Farage or UKIP now, not the LDs
UKIP? Would they even find the candidates? In 2013 in Wiltshire there was something like 55 candidates for UKIP, by 2017 it was about 8. Given the former I imagine Farage can find some candidates for his lot though.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Do you keep up with fishing events as it's difficult to relate events of 35 years ago to today.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Over half the British quota has been sold to EU fleets by British fishermen themselves.
Yes because a lot of those fisherman had no choice, they were catching x before we joined. On joining immediately half the british fish got allocated to other countries as part of the common fishing policies. Leaving us with half x.
Over the next decade or so due to the crapness of the common fishing policy more and more species became overfished and x decreased.
If you care to suggest how an independent skipper can keep a boat and crew running when they are only allowed to fish 6 weeks of the year then feel free to expound.
Selling something when your choice is either go bankrupt or sell is not a choice.
That's not the only issue.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
Isn't that partly because the government took a dim view if supertrawlers and pulse fishing? Not an expert and tbh, I'm pleased that the government prioritised a good settlement on the LPF and governance over fishing so I'm not fussed either way.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Fewer Brits rely on the fishing industry for employment than on Harrods. Or House of Fraser. Or pretty much any high street retail name most people have heard of.
But a lot more French people do, which was, after all, the point.
Yes and because of that we've got huge concessions elsewhere (LPF, governance, arbitration, third country status, no ECJ etc...) in the deal allowing Macron his big victory on fishing. It's bloody great. We're in the exact opposite position of what many remainers predicted that we'd get all the fish but nothing else we wanted. We gave away the fish and got everything else.
I also keep reading about this "future leverage" the EU supposedly has over us from certain posters but I've yet to read about it or have this leverage identified other than "it's in the future, stop asking". If anything the five yearly review which also ends around the time the French will once again be panicking over fishing rights is leverage for the UK. We're in a great position over our trading relationship with the EU for the first time since the Lisbon treaty was signed and we gave away all of our vetoes.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Well even if it isn't I don't know how high risk it is, they are around 5-8%, which the last 10 years would seem to show is their core. They need to be different than Labour (I suppose that might have been a problem once Labour went for a referendum, as the LDs needed to escalate to differentiate), so not that many options on the Brexit issue.
Apologies if this is very old news, but is it true that the Oxford/AZN vaccine is a 'Coronavirus' vaccine rather than a 'Covid-19' vaccine, making it efficacious against all mutations and indeed all coronaviruses?
Is your answer, that there is no evidence it helps against other coronaviruses, or that there is evidence it makes no difference? (And could this vary by vaccine type?)
There's no evidence, rather than evidence of no difference.
There are two mechanisms: having any kind of vaccination may boost the nonspecific immune system a bit, which is probably behind the flu jab effect. However the study that found this effect is poorly controlled and I wouldn't read too much into it until it's replicated. It's possible that, simply, those who got the flu jab were also the type to practice better infection control.
The other mechanism is that there might be some cross-immunity to other coronaviruses, because they share enough proteins on their shell for the COVID antibodies to recognize other coronaviruses. That's entirely possible, but it's very unlikely to be complete protection. It hasn't been tested yet, as they have been focusing the studies very narrowly on COVID protection (quite sensibly!). There's no particular reason to think this would vary between vaccine type, as far as I know. I recall that cross-immunity between seasonal coronaviruses is known to be fairly weak.
Of course, the amazing promise of mRNA vaccines is that we might be able to design vaccines for the other coronaviruses very easily (if not particularly cheaply), should we wish to. Influenza, with its rapidly-mutating shell, would be a tougher target.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Unusally, I'm not sure I agree with you on that at all, HorseBattery. If Brexit is perceived as a success, I think that particular policy is more likely to likely to be irrelevant and forgotten than the party themselves ; they would still have personal liberty issues to take on Starmer with, for instance, if he goes after the Red Wall voters very hard on law and order or many other related areas, taking either a New Labour or Blue Labour approach.
Conversely, if Brexit is perceived as a disaster, the LD's will now be uniquely well-placed, with their new distinction of having voted against. The potential benefits far outweigh the risks.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Over half the British quota has been sold to EU fleets by British fishermen themselves.
Yes because a lot of those fisherman had no choice, they were catching x before we joined. On joining immediately half the british fish got allocated to other countries as part of the common fishing policies. Leaving us with half x.
Over the next decade or so due to the crapness of the common fishing policy more and more species became overfished and x decreased.
If you care to suggest how an independent skipper can keep a boat and crew running when they are only allowed to fish 6 weeks of the year then feel free to expound.
Selling something when your choice is either go bankrupt or sell is not a choice.
That's not the only issue.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
Isn't that partly because the government took a dim view if supertrawlers and pulse fishing? Not an expert and tbh, I'm pleased that the government prioritised a good settlement on the LPF and governance over fishing so I'm not fussed either way.
Being a fisherman sucks. Because of farmed fish, the price you'll get for your produce is down. Because your vessel is small, your variable costs are high. Because of quotas and overfishing, the number of days you can work each year is small.
You earn less than minimum wage for a backbreaking job.
The only people who make an economic return are those who get big vessels that spend weeks at sea, and who can afford to buy quotas from others.
Let's put this in context for a second. The Danish fishing fleet lands around 800,000 tonnes of fish a year. The British one, 700,000.
There are 12,000 fishermen in the UK, and about 1,600 in Denmark.
Getting our quotas back doesn't solve the problem that the UK fishing fleet has outdated equipment and ridiculously high marginal costs.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Unusally, I'm not sure I agree with you on that at all, HorseBattery. If Brexit is perceived as a success, I think that particular policy is more likely to likely to be irrelevant and forgotten, than the party themselves ; they would still have personal liberty issues to take on Starmer with, for instance, if he goes after the Red Wall voters very hard on law and order and other related issues, taking either a New Labour or Blue Labour approach.
Conversely, if Brexit is perceived as a disaster, the LD's will now be uniquely well-placed with their new distinction of having voted against. The potential benefits far outweigh the risks.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
Apologies if this is very old news, but is it true that the Oxford/AZN vaccine is a 'Coronavirus' vaccine rather than a 'Covid-19' vaccine, making it efficacious against all mutations and indeed all coronaviruses?
Is your answer, that there is no evidence it helps against other coronaviruses, or that there is evidence it makes no difference? (And could this vary by vaccine type?)
There's no evidence, rather than evidence of no difference.
There are two mechanisms: having any kind of vaccination may boost the nonspecific immune system a bit, which is probably behind the flu jab effect. However the study that found this effect is poorly controlled and I wouldn't read too much into it until it's replicated. It's possible that, simply, those who got the flu jab were also the type to practice better infection control.
The other mechanism is that there might be some cross-immunity to other coronaviruses, because they share enough proteins on their shell for the COVID antibodies to recognize other coronaviruses. That's entirely possible, but it's very unlikely to be complete protection. It hasn't been tested yet, as they have been focusing the studies very narrowly on COVID protection (quite sensibly!). There's no particular reason to think this would vary between vaccine type, as far as I know. I recall that cross-immunity between seasonal coronaviruses is known to be fairly weak.
Of course, the amazing promise of mRNA vaccines is that we might be able to design vaccines for the other coronaviruses very easily (if not particularly cheaply), should we wish to. Influenza, with its rapidly-mutating shell, would be a tougher target.
--AS
Thanks, your posts are amongst the most informative here and much appreciated.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Fewer Brits rely on the fishing industry for employment than on Harrods. Or House of Fraser. Or pretty much any high street retail name most people have heard of.
But a lot more French people do, which was, after all, the point.
According to Google, there are fewer than 8,000 FTE fishermen in France, against 12,000 in the UK.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
No, LD heartlands are now SW London, West Oxford and West Edinburgh not the SW of England
It will depend how badly the sell out of British fishermen goes down. I would expect large parts of the SW to feel that they have been used by the government. The SW will be badly damaged by brexit and the failure to get the single benefit we were told we would get is unlikely to go down well.
I think that there is a misconception that people wanted Brexit for the sake of it. They wanted Brexit because they were told it would make their life better. If life in the SW does not improve the Tories are likely to be in trouble.
If those SW fishermen dislike the Deal they will go to Farage or UKIP now, not the LDs
UKIP? Would they even find the candidates? In 2013 in Wiltshire there was something like 55 candidates for UKIP, by 2017 it was about 8. Given the former I imagine Farage can find some candidates for his lot though.
Mebyon Kernow. Why not? If there is no other option ...
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Unusally, I'm not sure I agree with you on that at all, HorseBattery. If Brexit is perceived as a success, I think that particular policy is more likely to likely to be irrelevant and forgotten, than the party themselves ; they would still have personal liberty issues to take on Starmer with, for instance, if he goes after the Red Wall voters very hard on law and order and other related issues, taking either a New Labour or Blue Labour approach.
Conversely, if Brexit is perceived as a disaster, the LD's will now be uniquely well-placed with their new distinction of having voted against. The potential benefits far outweigh the risks.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Fewer Brits rely on the fishing industry for employment than on Harrods. Or House of Fraser. Or pretty much any high street retail name most people have heard of.
But a lot more French people do, which was, after all, the point.
According to Google, there are fewer than 8,000 FTE fishermen in France, against 12,000 in the UK.
I read over 5k work in the fishing industry in Boulogne alone. Mainly processing UK fish.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Over half the British quota has been sold to EU fleets by British fishermen themselves.
Yes because a lot of those fisherman had no choice, they were catching x before we joined. On joining immediately half the british fish got allocated to other countries as part of the common fishing policies. Leaving us with half x.
Over the next decade or so due to the crapness of the common fishing policy more and more species became overfished and x decreased.
If you care to suggest how an independent skipper can keep a boat and crew running when they are only allowed to fish 6 weeks of the year then feel free to expound.
Selling something when your choice is either go bankrupt or sell is not a choice.
That's not the only issue.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
Isn't that partly because the government took a dim view if supertrawlers and pulse fishing? Not an expert and tbh, I'm pleased that the government prioritised a good settlement on the LPF and governance over fishing so I'm not fussed either way.
Being a fisherman sucks. Because of farmed fish, the price you'll get for your produce is down. Because your vessel is small, your variable costs are high. Because of quotas and overfishing, the number of days you can work each year is small.
You earn less than minimum wage for a backbreaking job.
The only people who make an economic return are those who get big vessels that spend weeks at sea, and who can afford to buy quotas from others.
Let's put this in context for a second. The Danish fishing fleet lands around 800,000 tonnes of fish a year. The British one, 700,000.
There are 12,000 fishermen in the UK, and about 1,600 in Denmark.
Getting our quotas back doesn't solve the problem that the UK fishing fleet has outdated equipment and ridiculously high marginal costs.
Couldnt we just have bought them some shiny new boats instead of surrendering 4% of GDP?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Fewer Brits rely on the fishing industry for employment than on Harrods. Or House of Fraser. Or pretty much any high street retail name most people have heard of.
But a lot more French people do, which was, after all, the point.
According to Google, there are fewer than 8,000 FTE fishermen in France, against 12,000 in the UK.
I read over 5k work in the fishing industry in Boulogne alone. Mainly processing UK fish.
Sorry, my figure was for fishermen.
As you and I both agree, the fish processing industry is probably 10x more important than the actual fishing industry from an economic benefit perspective.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
LibDems not so much banking on Brexit being a disaster so much as plenty being able to recognize that it is a failure.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I can't really think what a sane right of centre patriotic policy looks like either, other than blue passports. Patriotism is great, as is luuurving one's mother, but it isn't a policy driver that I can see, and it's just embarrassing to go on about it.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
Would it not be easier if Fluffy had a tragic waterskiing accident? Or something.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
How many fridges does BoJo possess?
Matt Hancock was the biggest buyer of fridges in the world.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
I read that travelling with pets will require not much more than evidence of a rabies vaccination? If that's a "disaster" then it might undermine claims about more serious issues. It wasn't so long ago it wasn't possible to take pets abroad at all.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
LibDems not so much banking on Brexit being a disaster so much as plenty being able to recognize that it is a failure.
They'll need a bit more than that. What is their future policy response going to be to that? Rejoining the EU? Or do they think that "being right" will be enough?
The polling at the 2019 election suggested that a majority though Brexit was a mistake. At a time when it could still theoretically be stopped. Where did that get them?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Over half the British quota has been sold to EU fleets by British fishermen themselves.
Yes because a lot of those fisherman had no choice, they were catching x before we joined. On joining immediately half the british fish got allocated to other countries as part of the common fishing policies. Leaving us with half x.
Over the next decade or so due to the crapness of the common fishing policy more and more species became overfished and x decreased.
If you care to suggest how an independent skipper can keep a boat and crew running when they are only allowed to fish 6 weeks of the year then feel free to expound.
Selling something when your choice is either go bankrupt or sell is not a choice.
That's not the only issue.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
Isn't that partly because the government took a dim view if supertrawlers and pulse fishing? Not an expert and tbh, I'm pleased that the government prioritised a good settlement on the LPF and governance over fishing so I'm not fussed either way.
Being a fisherman sucks. Because of farmed fish, the price you'll get for your produce is down. Because your vessel is small, your variable costs are high. Because of quotas and overfishing, the number of days you can work each year is small.
You earn less than minimum wage for a backbreaking job.
The only people who make an economic return are those who get big vessels that spend weeks at sea, and who can afford to buy quotas from others.
Let's put this in context for a second. The Danish fishing fleet lands around 800,000 tonnes of fish a year. The British one, 700,000.
There are 12,000 fishermen in the UK, and about 1,600 in Denmark.
Getting our quotas back doesn't solve the problem that the UK fishing fleet has outdated equipment and ridiculously high marginal costs.
Couldnt we just have bought them some shiny new boats instead of surrendering 4% of GDP?
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
Tbf the regime for travelling with pet isn’t a disaster, as it might have been under no deal with titre tests months in advance. Rather bizarrely, the EU pet passport, in European blue with its yellow stars, will no longer be recognised by the EU, so you need to go see a vet in the UK, which does recognise the passport, to write the same information on a piece of paper, and charge you for it, ten days before you travel. Which is a small hassle and small extra cost. No one will check this piece of paper, because no-one checks the passport now when entering the EU.
Before return, you need to go see a vet in the EU, which doesn’t recognise the old passport, to nevertheless fill it in, before showing it to officials in the UK, which does, to gain re-entry.
I don’t really understand why we couldn’t simply continue with mutual recognition and the same arrangements as currently, which (I believe) some non-EU countries already have. But it’s not a disaster.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
How many fridges does BoJo possess?
Matt Hancock was the biggest buyer of fridges in the world.
I suppose we'll need to find something to do with them once the vaccine is distributed. They can't all go on Gumtree.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
Would it not be easier if Fluffy had a tragic waterskiing accident? Or something.
She watches me like a hawk around that bloody dog. She's even taught it not to play fetch with me.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
LibDems not so much banking on Brexit being a disaster so much as plenty being able to recognize that it is a failure.
They'll need a bit more than that. What is their future policy response going to be to that? Rejoining the EU? Or do they think that "being right" will be enough?
It could be, in terms of perceptions. The Iraq War wasn't possible to be reversed, but they gained huge credit on the back of that issue, for daring to break with the consensus.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Unusally, I'm not sure I agree with you on that at all, HorseBattery. If Brexit is perceived as a success, I think that particular policy is more likely to likely to be irrelevant and forgotten, than the party themselves ; they would still have personal liberty issues to take on Starmer with, for instance, if he goes after the Red Wall voters very hard on law and order and other related issues, taking either a New Labour or Blue Labour approach.
Conversely, if Brexit is perceived as a disaster, the LD's will now be uniquely well-placed with their new distinction of having voted against. The potential benefits far outweigh the risks.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
@MarqueeMark lives in Torquay and his forecasts for the constituency have proven prescient over the years.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Over half the British quota has been sold to EU fleets by British fishermen themselves.
Yes because a lot of those fisherman had no choice, they were catching x before we joined. On joining immediately half the british fish got allocated to other countries as part of the common fishing policies. Leaving us with half x.
Over the next decade or so due to the crapness of the common fishing policy more and more species became overfished and x decreased.
If you care to suggest how an independent skipper can keep a boat and crew running when they are only allowed to fish 6 weeks of the year then feel free to expound.
Selling something when your choice is either go bankrupt or sell is not a choice.
That's not the only issue.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
Isn't that partly because the government took a dim view if supertrawlers and pulse fishing? Not an expert and tbh, I'm pleased that the government prioritised a good settlement on the LPF and governance over fishing so I'm not fussed either way.
Being a fisherman sucks. Because of farmed fish, the price you'll get for your produce is down. Because your vessel is small, your variable costs are high. Because of quotas and overfishing, the number of days you can work each year is small.
You earn less than minimum wage for a backbreaking job.
The only people who make an economic return are those who get big vessels that spend weeks at sea, and who can afford to buy quotas from others.
Let's put this in context for a second. The Danish fishing fleet lands around 800,000 tonnes of fish a year. The British one, 700,000.
There are 12,000 fishermen in the UK, and about 1,600 in Denmark.
Getting our quotas back doesn't solve the problem that the UK fishing fleet has outdated equipment and ridiculously high marginal costs.
Couldnt we just have bought them some shiny new boats instead of surrendering 4% of GDP?
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
How many fridges does BoJo possess?
Matt Hancock was the biggest buyer of fridges in the world.
I suppose we'll need to find something to do with them once the vaccine is distributed. They can't all go on Gumtree.
Freezing Waitrose ready meals at -70C is perhaps overkill, in any event?
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
Would it not be easier if Fluffy had a tragic waterskiing accident? Or something.
She watches me like a hawk around that bloody dog. She's even taught it not to play fetch with me.
Only two minutes' distraction would be required. Just say "Oh look, *********** (insert name of favourite TV personality, or something) just went jogging past the house!" Then, when she comes back from having a look, "I'm sorry dear, Fluffy was just dragged off by a leopard seal. I tried to save her but it was too quick for me." Job done.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
How many fridges does BoJo possess?
How many does he need? Does he have as many kitchens as Ed Miliband?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Thanks BigG
Let's hope a few more find opportunity.
(I hadn't realised until very recently that part of the awkwardness about these discussions was just that our fishermen sold the rights)
You realised wrong. The discussion s had nothing to do with UK quotas that had been sold by British fishermen.
LibDems backing a second referendum a year ago, now No Deal?
Brexit has made for strange politics.
I really don't understand why the LDs should be quite so bad.
What happened to the middle-class responsible nice people? Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams, not so much David Owen though
The modern politician who perhaps seems most like them is Nandy. I can't see her seeking them out though.
Just stupid from Davey if he votes against.
Maybe he thinks that the deal is a bad deal for the UK. That would be a sensible reason to vote against it.
It gives the EU what it needs in terms of access for manufacturing but sells out the UK service sector.
Compared to No Deal?
Ah, the old would you like to be poisoned or would you prefer to be shot argument? I assume that Davy would vote against no deal as well.
The question before MPs is fairly simple, do you agree this is a good deal or not. Given the usual Tory approach he is in an impossible situation anyway. If he votes for it in years to come his support will be thrown in his face as it goes badly. If he votes against then he will perversely described as being in favour of a no deal. It is the typical Tory approach of giving people two bad choices and then bullying them into supporting the least worst.
It is a game that I think he is sensible not to play. If you think the deal is bad vote against it, if you think it is good support it. That way, at least we know where people stand.
There is a certain clarity in voting against what happens, if you anticipate it won’t turn out well and intend to oppose it.
Labour faces the greater challenge, having to explain, “ yes, well I know we are the opposition and all, but we voted in favour of what happened, not because we wanted it to happen, oh no, but because had we not voted for what happened, something else might have happened which we wanted even less than what happened, so we voted for what we didn’t want to happen to avoid what would otherwise have happened from happening. But we oppose it all the same, just not quite as much as we would have opposed the other thing.”
Labour voting for it is absolutely the right choice, and overwhelmingly in their political interests. It reassures Leavers that they've accepted Brexit whilst they can say to Remainers they were avoiding No Deal and will build on it (a lot) in future.
It's astonishing that there's even much internal debate in the shadow cabinet about this.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
On fishing, there's another things that never gets talked about which is absolute death for traditional fishermen.
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
And that highlights the challenge for the UK government going forward.
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
How many fridges does BoJo possess?
Matt Hancock was the biggest buyer of fridges in the world.
I suppose we'll need to find something to do with them once the vaccine is distributed. They can't all go on Gumtree.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Fewer Brits rely on the fishing industry for employment than on Harrods. Or House of Fraser. Or pretty much any high street retail name most people have heard of.
But a lot more French people do, which was, after all, the point.
According to Google, there are fewer than 8,000 FTE fishermen in France, against 12,000 in the UK.
I think it's very complicated. It depends what type of fish you're catching, and where, and what price you get for them by species.
There's certainly some niche hyperlocal fishing that goes on in some Cornish fishing villages that I'm aware of, for example.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Thanks BigG
Let's hope a few more find opportunity.
(I hadn't realised until very recently that part of the awkwardness about these discussions was just that our fishermen sold the rights)
You realised wrong. The discussion s had nothing to do with UK quotas that had been sold by British fishermen.
Hang on.
While there's a lot of discussion about the quota setting works, it's completely untrue to suggest that there has been nothing about existing holders of British quotas and whether they would be reclaimed and resold by UK Government.
Voting against the deal is an absolute no-brainer for both the LDs and SNP. Most voters are against, it isn't the magic bullet as claimed so best case for the hard leavers is that its a big disappointment and worse case scenario its a disaster.
Either way, nothing at all to lose by voting against. Labour on the other hand probably need to abstain and talk about something else. Didn't work for Corbyn, then again Keith is suitably safe enough not to scare people the way the Jeremy did.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
Tbf the regime for travelling with pet isn’t a disaster, as it might have been under no deal with titre tests months in advance. Rather bizarrely, the EU pet passport, in European blue with its yellow stars, will no longer be recognised by the EU, so you need to go see a vet in the UK, which does recognise the passport, to write the same information on a piece of paper, and charge you for it, ten days before you travel. Which is a small hassle and small extra cost. No one will check this piece of paper, because no-one checks the passport now when entering the EU.
Before return, you need to go see a vet in the EU, which doesn’t recognise the old passport, to nevertheless fill it in, before showing it to officials in the UK, which does, to gain re-entry.
I don’t really understand why we couldn’t simply continue with mutual recognition and the same arrangements as currently, which (I believe) some non-EU countries already have. But it’s not a disaster.
p.s. the other change, which I missed, is that visits will in future be time limited - I can’t recall whether it’s three or four months, from the date of seeing the UK vet. Which will only be a problem for people spending many months abroad in the EU (who would have visa issues also, if they stay that long),
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
No, LD heartlands are now SW London, West Oxford and West Edinburgh not the SW of England
It will depend how badly the sell out of British fishermen goes down. I would expect large parts of the SW to feel that they have been used by the government. The SW will be badly damaged by brexit and the failure to get the single benefit we were told we would get is unlikely to go down well.
I think that there is a misconception that people wanted Brexit for the sake of it. They wanted Brexit because they were told it would make their life better. If life in the SW does not improve the Tories are likely to be in trouble.
If those SW fishermen dislike the Deal they will go to Farage or UKIP now, not the LDs
UKIP? Would they even find the candidates? In 2013 in Wiltshire there was something like 55 candidates for UKIP, by 2017 it was about 8. Given the former I imagine Farage can find some candidates for his lot though.
Mebyon Kernow. Why not? If there is no other option ...
One nationalist movement we've successfully vanquished.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
To be honest, there isn't much point in reading it before the vote. It's not as if it can be modified.
On that basis you may as well abolish Parliamentary votes on most things. Is that really what you want?
Those on the Leave side who have shouted loudest about Parliamentary sovereignty and democracy are those who have done the most to ensure the sidelining of Parliament and the minimum of scrutiny for this, the most important of agreements and one which is intended to set Britain's course in the world for the next few years.
Whatever they are they are not true democrats.
If they were they would want to spell out exactly what this means for this country: not just the advantages - and there will be some for some people anyway, but the costs and trade-offs, who wins and who loses within this country. They would want to do what they often accuse the pro-Common Market side of not doing all those decades ago, of spelling out what departure really means. Instead they will rely on exhaustion and relief and our worries about Covid to slip this through, unread, unscrutinised, barely understood and hope to have departed for more lucrative roles before people realise the reality.
It is shaming that a country which likes to boast about having the mother of Parliaments behaves in this way. But the reality is that we now have government by decree, with little debate, even less scrutiny and as little accountability as it can get away with.
I was rather tongue in cheek!
There is no point in dissecting the deal as no matter how crap, there is no choice but No Deal.
Indeed that is why Johnson held it so late. He doesn't like scrutiny or accountability.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
@MarqueeMark lives in Torquay and his forecasts for the constituency have proven prescient over the years.
2024 is a long time way away in political terms. To suggest 3 years out that any constituency (particularly one which has changed hands within the last 10 years) is out of reach is, in my view, stupid. If brexit delivers real benefits for coastal communities the Tories will do well. If it goes badly the Tories will get a kicking and in Torbay that will benefit the LDs.
Torbay also has the added complication of having a not very well liked local MP. In that context Totnes is probably safer for the Tories.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The tell tale signs this is complete bullshit are:
(1) It's obviously not true (2) There's no actual link to a news article, just a photoshopped image (3) There are 666 comments (4) The author of the piece is "Gordon Hangman"
Oh yeah, and the date and time when the story was allegedly published had not actually happened yet when the Tweet was posted.
Well, the story may be false, but what's matters is what it teaches us about Priti Patel.
--AS
Stewart Lee has a fantastic routine about David Cameron based on the same premise.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
But only in terms of making sure we were - as the saying goes - obeying the rules correctly.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
Tbf the regime for travelling with pet isn’t a disaster, as it might have been under no deal with titre tests months in advance. Rather bizarrely, the EU pet passport, in European blue with its yellow stars, will no longer be recognised by the EU, so you need to go see a vet in the UK, which does recognise the passport, to write the same information on a piece of paper, and charge you for it, ten days before you travel. Which is a small hassle and small extra cost. No one will check this piece of paper, because no-one checks the passport now when entering the EU.
Before return, you need to go see a vet in the EU, which doesn’t recognise the old passport, to nevertheless fill it in, before showing it to officials in the UK, which does, to gain re-entry.
I don’t really understand why we couldn’t simply continue with mutual recognition and the same arrangements as currently, which (I believe) some non-EU countries already have. But it’s not a disaster.
p.s. the other change, which I missed, is that visits will in future be time limited - I can’t recall whether it’s three or four months, from the date of seeing the UK vet. Which will only be a problem for people spending many months abroad in the EU (who would have visa issues also, if they stay that long),
I was being illustrative rather than literal Ian. But I think you make my point. The thing is that there are leavers who see Brexit as an answer in itself. Having left the EU was the only thing that mattered. But for the leavers I know that misses the point. They voted for things to get better (and to have no downsides, they were project fear). If they get what they think they voted for they will be very happy indeed. But if they get no benefits and experience bad outcomes they will become very angry indeed.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
On Torbay, Kevin Foster is more LibDem than any LibDem in securing that constituency. It was won by the LibDems because of many, many years of neglect by the Conservatives. Kevin isn't making that mistake again. He has a very visible constituency presence, with a very detailed and interactive weekly newsletter that goes out to thousands of his voters. He put his salary increases into a fund that gets dispensed to local charities. He is VERY active with the various local church communities.
The LibDem majority in 2010 was over 4,000. The Tory majority has ratcheted up from 3,286 in 2015 to 17,749 in 2019. Now, if LibDem High Command wants to throw money at Torbay, well take however much they want to waste - and still have a five figure majority.
As for the Torbay Council - the Goodrington with Roselands by-election in late 2019 saw the LibDems lose the seat to a Conservative with a majority of 250. The relationship between the LibDems and Labour in Torbay is quite complicated. The Tories have had a history of recent infighting in factions. That has since been resolved and they will come out as a unified force at the next election - a novelty in recent elections.
As for Totnes - Anthony Mangnall is 31 and will keep that seat for 50 years if he wants it.* The LibDems threw the kitchen sink and an open chequebook at keeping Sarah Wollaston in place. We Tories fought tooth and nail though - we visted over three quarters of the houses in a constituency with a large rural hinterland. Our canvass returns calculated the day before polling were within 0.1% of the final result for our vote.
And I assume you didn't try to door-knock in Brixham in 2019 with a LibDem rosette? Because you are still here to post.....
*EDIT: He was the first of the new 2019 intake to swear the oath. So if he does stick around that long, he will probably be Father of the House....
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
One skipper seems to have given up the fight. Maybe the 'great deal' will tempt him back, assuming he can squeeze some grants out of somewhere.
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
It's about values.
Or about covering gaps in substance with symbols.
Voters need to know you value the same things they do before they'll vote for you.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
And if a Scot wants independence in the hope of regaining a sense of nation, is that not patriotism, or the wrong kind of patriotism?
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
On Torbay, Kevin Foster is more LibDem than any LibDem in securing that constituency. It was won by the LibDems because of many, many years of neglect by the Conservatives. Kevin isn't making that mistake again. He has a very visible constituency presence, with a very detailed and interactive weekly newsletter that goes out to thousands of his voters. He put his salary increases into a fund that gets dispensed to local charities. He is VERY active with the various local church communities.
The LibDem majority in 2010 was over 4,000. The Tory majority has ratcheted up from 3,286 in 2015 to 17,749 in 2019. Now, if LibDem High Command wants to throw money at Torbay, well take however much they want to waste - and still have a five figure majority.
As for the Torbay Council - the Goodrington with Roselands by-election in late 2019 saw the LibDems lose the seat to a Conservative with a majority of 250. The relationship between the LibDems and Labour in Torbay is quite complicated. The Tories have had a history of recent infighting in factions. That has since been resolved and they will come out as a unified force at the next election - a novelty in recent elections.
As for Totnes - Anthony Mangnall is 31 and will keep that seat for 50 years if he wants it.* The LibDems threw the kitchen sink and an open chequebook at keeping Sarah Wollaston in place. We Tories fought tooth and nail though - we visted over three quarters of the houses in a constituency with a large rural hinterland. Our canvass returns calculated the day before polling were within 0.1% of the final result for our vote.
And I assume you didn't try to door-knock in Brixham in 2019 with a LibDem rosette? Because you are still here to post.....
*EDIT: He was the first of the new 2019 intake to swear the oath. So if he does stick around that long, he will probably be Father of the House....
The tell tale signs this is complete bullshit are:
(1) It's obviously not true (2) There's no actual link to a news article, just a photoshopped image (3) There are 666 comments (4) The author of the piece is "Gordon Hangman"
Oh yeah, and the date and time when the story was allegedly published had not actually happened yet when the Tweet was posted.
Well, the story may be false, but what's matters is what it teaches us about Priti Patel.
--AS
Stewart Lee has a fantastic routine about David Cameron based on the same premise.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
Would it not be easier if Fluffy had a tragic waterskiing accident? Or something.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
One skipper seems to have given up the fight. Maybe the 'great deal' will tempt him back, assuming he can squeeze some grants out of somewhere.
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
Build fancy viaducts and join the euro?
Fancy viaducts certainly. Joining any Europe-wide projects would only be allowed if we had an unshakeable confidence that our own importance within the overall set up would mean we could get our own way on most things, and a quiet determination simply to ignore the rules whenever we didn't.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You want the SNP but you don't want the SNP but you do want the SNP because Farage and you want to join the SNP in a boat.. or something.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
But only in terms of making sure we were - as the saying goes - obeying the rules correctly.
Yes, that's not meaningful scrutiny - just box-ticking. I was involved professionally in negotiating several EU Directives many years ago and the substance, which I helped negotiate, was usually not even discussed. Most comments (including in the Committee stage) were on the legal drafting, which nobody I worked with cared much about. (I was thought exceptional because I occasionally commented on the turgid stuff the lawyers provided).
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Pretty much every winning politician or campaign thinks they've won decisively and there will be no turning back yada yada.
Sometimes it works like that, often it doesn't. What's curious and somewhat creepy is the determination that some have (here and more widely) to insist that this pendulum will never ever swing back fully.
Que sera, sera Whatever will be, will be The future's not ours to see (not yet anyway) Que sera, sera What will be, will be
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
On Torbay, Kevin Foster is more LibDem than any LibDem in securing that constituency. It was won by the LibDems because of many, many years of neglect by the Conservatives. Kevin isn't making that mistake again. He has a very visible constituency presence, with a very detailed and interactive weekly newsletter that goes out to thousands of his voters. He put his salary increases into a fund that gets dispensed to local charities. He is VERY active with the various local church communities.
The LibDem majority in 2010 was over 4,000. The Tory majority has ratcheted up from 3,286 in 2015 to 17,749 in 2019. Now, if LibDem High Command wants to throw money at Torbay, well take however much they want to waste - and still have a five figure majority.
As for the Torbay Council - the Goodrington with Roselands by-election in late 2019 saw the LibDems lose the seat to a Conservative with a majority of 250. The relationship between the LibDems and Labour in Torbay is quite complicated. The Tories have had a history of recent infighting in factions. That has since been resolved and they will come out as a unified force at the next election - a novelty in recent elections.
As for Totnes - Anthony Mangnall is 31 and will keep that seat for 50 years if he wants it.* The LibDems threw the kitchen sink and an open chequebook at keeping Sarah Wollaston in place. We Tories fought tooth and nail though - we visted over three quarters of the houses in a constituency with a large rural hinterland. Our canvass returns calculated the day before polling were within 0.1% of the final result for our vote.
And I assume you didn't try to door-knock in Brixham in 2019 with a LibDem rosette? Because you are still here to post.....
*EDIT: He was the first of the new 2019 intake to swear the oath. So if he does stick around that long, he will probably be Father of the House....
If you say so Mark. Still what you seem to fail to realise is that swings go both ways. All the big brexit swing to Foster says is that the electorate of Torbay can change their mind. Foster may be visible but that does not necessarily make him popular. Even large parts of his own party do not to like or respect him. As you will know one reason the Tories lost the council was all the internal party fighting between the mayor and the different factions on the council. But if you believe that Foster and Mangnall are safe for life then you hold on to that view.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
One skipper seems to have given up the fight. Maybe the 'great deal' will tempt him back, assuming he can squeeze some grants out of somewhere.
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
Poor benighted recipients of GBP238k gifts. If only they could turn their hand to seed potatoes.
It certainly suggests branded grants do not inculcate gratitude, something for HMG to ponder when the flow of UJ wrapped beneficence starts flowing northwards.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
I am not sneering at them, just questioning the capitalist system that has casualised and marginalised them.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You realise that the SNP is a pure protest party?
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You want the SNP but you don't want the SNP but you do want the SNP because Farage and you want to join the SNP in a boat.. or something.
Ok.
Wanting grown up government, in place of the lazy and dishonest student politician currently in office, isn’t so bad, or difficult to understand.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
And if a Scot wants independence in the hope of regaining a sense of nation, is that not patriotism, or the wrong kind of patriotism?
In this instance, Casino wasn't criticising Scots wanting Scottish independence, he was criticising English people wanting it as Brexit-revenge.
Personally, were I a Scottish supporter of indy, I'd be a bit queasy about the new cohort of Brexit-crazed Sindy sympathisers from Cheam and Richmond, feverishly pressing matches into my hand and urging me toward the lighter fluid, but there we go.
Comments
And as the only major British party not tortured by the issue they will be hoping it retains its juice.
From the mid 1970s onwards, the average tonnage of most other fishing fleets increased markedly, while in the UK it remained the same. Because smaller fishing vessels use so much more fuel per catch relative to a big vessel (that has bought up a bunch of quotas) that means that rising fuel prices absolutely crippled the UK fishing fleet.
What about now?
In 1970, farmed fish in Europe were a curiosity.
In 2019, Norway alone produced 1.3 million tonnes of farmed fish. That is more than twice what the French fishing fleet catches every year (0.6m tonnes).
I also keep reading about this "future leverage" the EU supposedly has over us from certain posters but I've yet to read about it or have this leverage identified other than "it's in the future, stop asking". If anything the five yearly review which also ends around the time the French will once again be panicking over fishing rights is leverage for the UK. We're in a great position over our trading relationship with the EU for the first time since the Lisbon treaty was signed and we gave away all of our vetoes.
There are two mechanisms: having any kind of vaccination may boost the nonspecific immune system a bit, which is probably behind the flu jab effect. However the study that found this effect is poorly controlled and I wouldn't read too much into it until it's replicated. It's possible that, simply, those who got the flu jab were also the type to practice better infection control.
The other mechanism is that there might be some cross-immunity to other coronaviruses, because they share enough proteins on their shell for the COVID antibodies to recognize other coronaviruses. That's entirely possible, but it's very unlikely to be complete protection. It hasn't been tested yet, as they have been focusing the studies very narrowly on COVID protection (quite sensibly!). There's no particular reason to think this would vary between vaccine type, as far as I know. I recall that cross-immunity between seasonal coronaviruses is known to be fairly weak.
Of course, the amazing promise of mRNA vaccines is that we might be able to design vaccines for the other coronaviruses very easily (if not particularly cheaply), should we wish to. Influenza, with its rapidly-mutating shell, would be a tougher target.
--AS
Not so much "The government hides behind the EU, so it's removal will lead to better UK governance" as "Stuff happens, society and economics change, and the EU has been a handy bogeyman. Who is going to get the blame now?"
How many fridges does BoJo possess?
Conversely, if Brexit is perceived as a disaster, the LD's will now be uniquely well-placed, with their new distinction of having voted against. The potential benefits far outweigh the risks.
You earn less than minimum wage for a backbreaking job.
The only people who make an economic return are those who get big vessels that spend weeks at sea, and who can afford to buy quotas from others.
Let's put this in context for a second. The Danish fishing fleet lands around 800,000 tonnes of fish a year. The British one, 700,000.
There are 12,000 fishermen in the UK, and about 1,600 in Denmark.
Getting our quotas back doesn't solve the problem that the UK fishing fleet has outdated equipment and ridiculously high marginal costs.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
As you and I both agree, the fish processing industry is probably 10x more important than the actual fishing industry from an economic benefit perspective.
The polling at the 2019 election suggested that a majority though Brexit was a mistake. At a time when it could still theoretically be stopped. Where did that get them?
Before return, you need to go see a vet in the EU, which doesn’t recognise the old passport, to nevertheless fill it in, before showing it to officials in the UK, which does, to gain re-entry.
I don’t really understand why we couldn’t simply continue with mutual recognition and the same arrangements as currently, which (I believe) some non-EU countries already have. But it’s not a disaster.
They can't all go on Gumtree.
It's astonishing that there's even much internal debate in the shadow cabinet about this.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
There's certainly some niche hyperlocal fishing that goes on in some Cornish fishing villages that I'm aware of, for example.
While there's a lot of discussion about the quota setting works, it's completely untrue to suggest that there has been nothing about existing holders of British quotas and whether they would be reclaimed and resold by UK Government.
Mr Meeks, I'm sure you're right. This deal will be a bundled through nonsense. The saving grace of it is of course that it's a deal.
I'm not sure that given all the time in the world that the lawyers would have achieved a better deal.
Looking forwards what are your political views? I guess you're inclined to a rejoin view, but no matter it's merits it's not a runner just yet.
Either way, nothing at all to lose by voting against. Labour on the other hand probably need to abstain and talk about something else. Didn't work for Corbyn, then again Keith is suitably safe enough not to scare people the way the Jeremy did.
Huzzah.
There is no point in dissecting the deal as no matter how crap, there is no choice but No Deal.
Indeed that is why Johnson held it so late. He doesn't like scrutiny or accountability.
Torbay also has the added complication of having a not very well liked local MP. In that context Totnes is probably safer for the Tories.
You do know they are 'skippers'
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
I'm both interested and not motivated enough to read the full text
The LibDem majority in 2010 was over 4,000. The Tory majority has ratcheted up from 3,286 in 2015 to 17,749 in 2019. Now, if LibDem High Command wants to throw money at Torbay, well take however much they want to waste - and still have a five figure majority.
As for the Torbay Council - the Goodrington with Roselands by-election in late 2019 saw the LibDems lose the seat to a Conservative with a majority of 250. The relationship between the LibDems and Labour in Torbay is quite complicated. The Tories have had a history of recent infighting in factions. That has since been resolved and they will come out as a unified force at the next election - a novelty in recent elections.
As for Totnes - Anthony Mangnall is 31 and will keep that seat for 50 years if he wants it.* The LibDems threw the kitchen sink and an open chequebook at keeping Sarah Wollaston in place. We Tories fought tooth and nail though - we visted over three quarters of the houses in a constituency with a large rural hinterland. Our canvass returns calculated the day before polling were within 0.1% of the final result for our vote.
And I assume you didn't try to door-knock in Brixham in 2019 with a LibDem rosette? Because you are still here to post.....
*EDIT: He was the first of the new 2019 intake to swear the oath. So if he does stick around that long, he will probably be Father of the House....
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
https://tinyurl.com/y99y5esm
--AS
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
Classic British Cinema. Owned by the French? THIS ISN'T THE BREXIT I VOTED FOR!!!
Ok.
This deal will be debated on its substance.
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
Sometimes it works like that, often it doesn't. What's curious and somewhat creepy is the determination that some have (here and more widely) to insist that this pendulum will never ever swing back fully.
Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see (not yet anyway)
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be
I am not sneering at them, just questioning the capitalist system that has casualised and marginalised them.
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
To be honest when you read this you realise just how far apart the UK and EU world views are:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/madman-johnson-gets-his-hollywood-ending-7tw70j8zj
Personally, were I a Scottish supporter of indy, I'd be a bit queasy about the new cohort of Brexit-crazed Sindy sympathisers from Cheam and Richmond, feverishly pressing matches into my hand and urging me toward the lighter fluid, but there we go.