We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
One skipper seems to have given up the fight. Maybe the 'great deal' will tempt him back, assuming he can squeeze some grants out of somewhere.
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
Poor benighted recipients of GBP238k gifts. If only they could turn their hand to seed potatoes.
It certainly suggests branded grants do not inculcate gratitude, something for HMG to ponder when the flow of UJ wrapped beneficence starts flowing northwards.
So you'd be happy to stop the free money then from England? Just until we can settle what's fair.
Labour voting for it is absolutely the right choice, and overwhelmingly in their political interests. It reassures Leavers that they've accepted Brexit whilst they can say to Remainers they were avoiding No Deal and will build on it (a lot) in future.
It's astonishing that there's even much internal debate in the shadow cabinet about this.
I think that's probably right, though originally I favoured abstention on the basis that "It's not what we'd have done but rejecting it would be irresponsble." But I think you've summed up the case for "Yes" well.
A practical problem raised by Alastair's piece: undoubtedly there will be errors in a document of this length, and things which don't work quite as the negotiators expected. Is there an agreed UK/EU procedure for revision that doesn't take forever?
Cyclefree is, by the way, correct that EU directives were subject to detailed scrutiny procedures in Parliament, through European Standing Committees A, B and C (for different areas). Typically each Directive would have 90 minutes of discussion, often with notably high-quality contributions which seemed genuinely helpful to the Ministers who ewould be implementing and/or seeking to amend them.
It was a quirk of politics that Conservative MPs, often critical of European legislation in general, tended not to turn up for these sessions -often there were no Conservatives present at all, or only one or two of the 10 or so on the committee. Since we were discussing legislation already signed off by the British Government, it's true that we weren't voting on them, and I think the Tories felt they were therefore wasating their times - but you could say that about every Bill committee where you do vote as well, since the votes are normally a formality if the Government has a majority.
Media coverage was zero, in the same way that adjournment debates (which also don't have votes) are almost never reported - the idea of having a constructive discussion withouit a vote is alien to British media culture.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
If they do want to do it, why are so many crews made up of Filipinos?. Note that they can only get visas if no qualified Briton applies for the job.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
I have no idea why you think this is invective and righteous indignation Casino. It seems a fairly fair representation of the way many young people feel.
Politicians who fail to listen to those views and chose to dismiss them instead are in for a difficult ride with the young.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
BigG - you do realise that (a) some of us have miners in their family trees and that (b) without them whole communities would have frozen to death? And that fishing in the old sense was never wholly sustainable? it's quite clear that permanent damage was done to the ecosystem over the decades and centuries.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
One skipper seems to have given up the fight. Maybe the 'great deal' will tempt him back, assuming he can squeeze some grants out of somewhere.
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
Poor benighted recipients of GBP238k gifts. If only they could turn their hand to seed potatoes.
It certainly suggests branded grants do not inculcate gratitude, something for HMG to ponder when the flow of UJ wrapped beneficence starts flowing northwards.
So you'd be happy to stop the free money then from England? Just until we can settle what's fair.
Is there a subject upon which you can comment intelligently/amusingly/informatively? If so I implore you to do so.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You realise that the SNP is a pure protest party?
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
I expect that post independence that the SNP will split into several parties but at the moment it is a centrist social Democrat party. Something sorely lacking South of the border.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
I'm up for an argument.
The Tories don't get to define patriotism and love of country. They don't get to call Labour unpatriotic simply because Labour loves different aspects of this country, aspects which many in the Tory party have sneered at or ignored.
Patriotism is not a party political matter and those parties who try to make it so are playing a dangerous and silly game. Let's look, for instance, at how much dodgy Russian money finances the Tory party. Were I to reveal some of what I know about that - which my confidentiality obligations prohibit me from doing - your hair would stand on end. So I view the Tory party's claims to be the patriotic party with a jaundiced eye.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
BigG - you do realise that (a) some of us have miners in their family trees and that (b) without them whole communities would have frozen to death? And that fishing in the old sense was never wholly sustainable? it's quite clear that permanent damage was done to the ecosystem over the decades and centuries.
Mining played a role as does fishing and both are very dangerous occupations
My late father in law, a highly successful north east fisherman, used to say to me as we chatted all things fishing in the sixties that while both mining and fishing saw lives lost he admired miners so much as he could never have gone down a colliery
Mining and coal are over but sustainable fishing is not
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The point about quotas in the film industry as a symbol of many broader policies that are forgotten is a very, very good one. The post-Thatcherite Right, and in fact the post-Thatcherite centre, saw this sort of this thing as somehow irredeemably French and alien, the sort of thing that could never have happened, and would never happen, here. Whereas in fact, you're right ; without the quotas getting the British music hall and other traditions into cinema, the Carry On films and many others of many other genres would never have happened, and Britain probably wouldn't still have had anything like the technical expertise to get films like Star Wars made here in the 1970s.
Has anyone on the Internet posted a summary of the aviation part of the agreement yet?
I'm both interested and not motivated enough to read the full text
"99.The Agreement builds on existing precedent and sets out the arrangements for the operation of air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines that are majority owned and controlled by UK and/ or EU/EEA/EFTA nationals at the end of December 2020 may continue to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. EU airlines that are majority owned and controlled by EU/EEA/EFTA nationals may also continue to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. 100. The Agreement provides operational flexibilities for UK and EU airlines. For example, UK airlines may lease aircraft and crew from UK or EU airlines and other providers to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines will also have extensive opportunities to cooperate with other airlines to offer a wide range of tickets to consumers. 101. The Agreement reflects the shared ambition of both the UK and the EU to cooperate in future, including commitments for continued cooperation and consultation on air traffic management, aviation security and consumer protection. 102. The Agreement also sets out the conditions under which the operation of air transport services between the UK and EU would not be permitted. Grounds for such action include reasons of aviation safety and security. Title II - Aviation safety 103. The Agreement is largely in line with precedent and sets out a framework for cooperation on aviation safety, and a process for agreeing Annexes to the agreement that will facilitate recognition of UK and EU certificates, approvals and licences. Areas where the UK and EU could agree Annexes in future include: monitoring of maintenance organisations; personnel licences and training; operation of aircraft; and air traffic management. 104. The airworthiness Annex to the Agreement sets out the conditions for the UK and EU to recognise each other’s aeronautical products and designs. For example, minor changes and repairs to aeronautical products and designs that are approved in the UK will be automatically accepted by the EU. In addition, the Annex foresees the possibility of the EU extending their scope of automatic recognition of UK aeronautical products and designs once it gains confidence in the UK’s capability for overseeing design certification. 105. The Annex also provides for the recognition of production certificates and regulatory oversight. For example, UK production certificates and oversight will be automatically recognised by the EU providing that the relevant aeronautical products were subject to UK oversight before the end of December 2020."
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
BigG - you do realise that (a) some of us have miners in their family trees and that (b) without them whole communities would have frozen to death? And that fishing in the old sense was never wholly sustainable? it's quite clear that permanent damage was done to the ecosystem over the decades and centuries.
Mining played a role as does fishing and both are very dangerous occupations
My late father in law, a highly successful north east fisherman, used to say to me as we chatted all things fishing in the sixties that while both mining and fishing saw lives lost he admired miners so much as he could never have gone down a colliery
Mining and coal are over but sustainable fishing is not
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
If they do want to do it, why are so many crews made up of Filipinos?. Note that they can only get visas if no qualified Briton applies for the job.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
And if a Scot wants independence in the hope of regaining a sense of nation, is that not patriotism, or the wrong kind of patriotism?
In this instance, Casino wasn't criticising Scots wanting Scottish independence, he was criticising English people wanting it as Brexit-revenge.
Personally, were I a Scottish supporter of indy, I'd be a bit queasy about the new cohort of Brexit-crazed Sindy sympathisers from Cheam and Richmond, feverishly pressing matches into my hand and urging me toward the lighter fluid, but there we go.
I am not sure there are such people, I am fairly sure none of them are posting here. You mustn't buy in to spiteful, paranoid nonsense on the say-so of one poster.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
One skipper seems to have given up the fight. Maybe the 'great deal' will tempt him back, assuming he can squeeze some grants out of somewhere.
'Trawlerman Jimmy Buchan is no longer the proud owner of the Peterhead-registered Amity II
...The 65-year-old refused to say how much he paid for his new boat, but one industry source suggested it may have changed hands for £500,000-£600,000. According to the same source, Mr Buchan, 59, has also sold valuable fish quota for about £500,000. Another leading industry figure said the vessel sale was “good news” as Mr Buchan had been looking to sell it for a while.
....It is just over seven years since he completed a £750,000 overhaul of the Amity II, helped by £238,000 in grants from Scottish Government and EU funds, plus lending from Bank of Scotland, in a show of faith in the industry’s future.'
Poor benighted recipients of GBP238k gifts. If only they could turn their hand to seed potatoes.
It certainly suggests branded grants do not inculcate gratitude, something for HMG to ponder when the flow of UJ wrapped beneficence starts flowing northwards.
So you'd be happy to stop the free money then from England? Just until we can settle what's fair.
Is there a subject upon which you can comment intelligently/amusingly/informatively? If so I implore you to do so.
Labour voting for it is absolutely the right choice, and overwhelmingly in their political interests. It reassures Leavers that they've accepted Brexit whilst they can say to Remainers they were avoiding No Deal and will build on it (a lot) in future.
It's astonishing that there's even much internal debate in the shadow cabinet about this.
I think that's probably right, though originally I favoured abstention on the basis that "It's not what we'd have done but rejecting it would be irresponsble." But I think you've summed up the case for "Yes" well.
A practical problem raised by Alastair's piece: undoubtedly there will be errors in a document of this length, and things which don't work quite as the negotiators expected. Is there an agreed UK/EU procedure for revision that doesn't take forever?
Cyclefree is, by the way, correct that EU directives were subject to detailed scrutiny procedures in Parliament, through European Standing Committees A, B and C (for different areas). Typically each Directive would have 90 minutes of discussion, often with notably high-quality contributions which seemed genuinely helpful to the Ministers who ewould be implementing and/or seeking to amend them.
It was a quirk of politics that Conservative MPs, often critical of European legislation in general, tended not to turn up for these sessions -often there were no Conservatives present at all, or only one or two of the 10 or so on the committee. Since we were discussing legislation already signed off by the British Government, it's true that we weren't voting on them, and I think the Tories felt they were therefore wasating their times - but you could say that about every Bill committee where you do vote as well, since the votes are normally a formality if the Government has a majority.
Media coverage was zero, in the same way that adjournment debates (which also don't have votes) are almost never reported - the idea of having a constructive discussion withouit a vote is alien to British media culture.
If we roll forward to the next general election the brexit party will be selling a vision that Brexit would have been great but for the dreadful 'establishment' deal which was stitched up by the Tories (less the ERG) and the Labour Party. They will be selling a vision that the people need to swing further to the right because only they can get us 'properly away from the evil empire'. By voting for the deal I suspect that the Labour party will end up getting a large slice of the blame for Brexit if it goes badly but if it goes well they will get no credit.
Johnson has a majority of 80 and if he cannot get his bill through parliament without them they should take the view that it will be his problem.
My view would be different if I felt it was a good deal, but I do not.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
@MarqueeMark lives in Torquay and his forecasts for the constituency have proven prescient over the years.
2024 is a long time way away in political terms. To suggest 3 years out that any constituency (particularly one which has changed hands within the last 10 years) is out of reach is, in my view, stupid. If brexit delivers real benefits for coastal communities the Tories will do well. If it goes badly the Tories will get a kicking and in Torbay that will benefit the LDs.
Torbay also has the added complication of having a not very well liked local MP. In that context Totnes is probably safer for the Tories.
Kevin Foster may not be very popular with Torbay's LibDem members. That I could believe.....
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
If they do want to do it, why are so many crews made up of Filipinos?. Note that they can only get visas if no qualified Briton applies for the job.
"The largest numbers of foreign workers were in the white fish fleet and prawn trawlers, and more were found in the North Sea fleet than the west coast."
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
You are nothing but invective and righteous indignation so those in glass houses...
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
BigG - you do realise that (a) some of us have miners in their family trees and that (b) without them whole communities would have frozen to death? And that fishing in the old sense was never wholly sustainable? it's quite clear that permanent damage was done to the ecosystem over the decades and centuries.
Mining played a role as does fishing and both are very dangerous occupations
My late father in law, a highly successful north east fisherman, used to say to me as we chatted all things fishing in the sixties that while both mining and fishing saw lives lost he admired miners so much as he could never have gone down a colliery
Mining and coal are over but sustainable fishing is not
Sustainable mining is not over, actually. In fact there is an opencast mine within 5 minutes of my house.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
And if a Scot wants independence in the hope of regaining a sense of nation, is that not patriotism, or the wrong kind of patriotism?
In this instance, Casino wasn't criticising Scots wanting Scottish independence, he was criticising English people wanting it as Brexit-revenge.
Personally, were I a Scottish supporter of indy, I'd be a bit queasy about the new cohort of Brexit-crazed Sindy sympathisers from Cheam and Richmond, feverishly pressing matches into my hand and urging me toward the lighter fluid, but there we go.
I am not sure there are such people, I am fairly sure none of them are posting here. You mustn't buy in to spiteful, paranoid nonsense on the say-so of one poster.
They tend to be all on twitter. Not a healthy place to be I find.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
If they do want to do it, why are so many crews made up of Filipinos?. Note that they can only get visas if no qualified Briton applies for the job.
This seems to refer to inshore shellfish whereas I am talking of the Scottish fleets fishing out of Peterhead and Kinlochbervie
Very different
It says that the visa requirements for outside the 12 mile limit are less onerous, so hiring Filipino crews are much less of an issue.
"Bigger east-coast vessels that work outside 12 miles do not have a problem, as foreign crews can be given work visas because the boats work outside UK territorial waters."
Do you not see that the problem is a capitalist system that has driven down payrates for Scottish crews to such a point that no one wants to do so?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You realise that the SNP is a pure protest party?
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
The issue with a lot of English admirers of the SNP is that they think they're the best thing since sliced bread because (a) they wave the EU flag at regular intervals and (b) they're the only political party not of the Right that has had any significant degree of success in Great Britain during the last fifteen years.
To truly assess whether or not an independent Scotland would be the shining beacon on a hill that fed-up English left-liberals imagine it would be, then we need only imagine the third thing a post-independence SNP administration would do, after burning every remaining Union Jack in the country and starting the EU accession process. Bring back the Named Persons Scheme, which intended to impose a social worker on every family in Scotland (presumably so that any parent caught voting Tory could have their children seized, or something very like it,) and which was only frustrated by the intervention of the UK Supreme Court.
There's a temptation, for some of us, because the regime under which we live is very flawed and we don't like it very much, to look elsewhere - to the leaders of lands who make noises with which we agree, but of whose rule we in fact know almost nothing - and to leap to the conclusion that life must be so much better over there. This is not necessarily the case.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
BigG - you do realise that (a) some of us have miners in their family trees and that (b) without them whole communities would have frozen to death? And that fishing in the old sense was never wholly sustainable? it's quite clear that permanent damage was done to the ecosystem over the decades and centuries.
Mining played a role as does fishing and both are very dangerous occupations
My late father in law, a highly successful north east fisherman, used to say to me as we chatted all things fishing in the sixties that while both mining and fishing saw lives lost he admired miners so much as he could never have gone down a colliery
Mining and coal are over but sustainable fishing is not
Now that is fair enough.
Thank you and I would never belittle a miner
I understood my late father in laws views on this and many other subjects
He was simply the best, kindest, and most generous person you could ever want as a father in law and we spoke many times into the wee small hours about his life and times at sea
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
I'm up for an argument.
The Tories don't get to define patriotism and love of country. They don't get to call Labour unpatriotic simply because Labour loves different aspects of this country, aspects which many in the Tory party have sneered at or ignored.
Patriotism is not a party political matter and those parties who try to make it so are playing a dangerous and silly game. Let's look, for instance, at how much dodgy Russian money finances the Tory party. Were I to reveal some of what I know about that - which my confidentiality obligations prohibit me from doing - your hair would stand on end. So I view the Tory party's claims to be the patriotic party with a jaundiced eye.
Under Corbyn, Labour had a genuine massive patriotism problem. But, however inconvenient it is, Jezza's gone, and his acolytes are largely sidelined.
People may not like the sort of patriotism Starmer espouses. But it clearly exists and is coherent, and is closer to reality than "every Victorian statue reflects things we want to think about ourselves now". Because apart from statues and snarling cultural cringe, what exactly is the patriotism of this iteration of the Conservative Party?
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
This the one that vomited on you ?
It was Diego, one of our three cats, who chose to vomit on our bed at 4am on Christmas morning.
He is a Sir, he did public service for a long time on behalf of the country, believes in democracy, believes in the army and the Monarchy. He is a supporter of the Armed Forces.
He is a Sir, he did public service for a long time on behalf of the country, believes in democracy, believes in the army and the Monarchy. He is a supporter of the Armed Forces.
That is patriotic to me.
Nah, because @Casino_Royale has labeled him as "woke" so he can't possibly be a patriot. Next.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
This the one that vomited on you ?
It was Diego, one of our three cats, who chose to vomit on our bed at 4am on Christmas morning.
I was woken up very early on 1st January by the dog vomiting up luminous bile.
That should have been sufficient warning to stay in bed all year through 2020.....
My patience with folk who dribble out clichés & ill-informed, passive aggressive drivel and who then get all huffy when their 'banter' isn't appreciated has become minimal. Don't engage with my posts if you can't hack that.
My patience with folk who dribble out clichés & ill-informed, passive aggressive drivel and who then get all huffy when their 'banter' isn't appreciated has become minimal. Don't engage with my posts if you can't hack that.
Lib Dem policy is high risk, if Brexit is successful they'll be irrelevant. They're clearly banking on it being a disaster.
Brexit is already a disaster if you run a service company, want to travel with a pet, want to stay in the EU for a period, want to learn abroad or get medical treatment. On that basis they have plenty of opportunity.
On the other hand, if your pet is a vicious chihuahua that your wife is somehow attached to, then her not being able to travel with it is an enormous benefit.
This the one that vomited on you ?
It was Diego, one of our three cats, who chose to vomit on our bed at 4am on Christmas morning.
I was woken up very early on 1st January by the dog vomiting up luminous bile.
That should have been sufficient warning to stay in bed all year through 2020.....
Was it really glow in the dark, or merely greenish when you put the bedside light on? I'm fascinated ...
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You realise that the SNP is a pure protest party?
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
The issue with a lot of English admirers of the SNP is that they think they're the best thing since sliced bread because (a) they wave the EU flag at regular intervals and (b) they're the only political party not of the Right that has had any significant degree of success in Great Britain during the last fifteen years.
To truly assess whether or not an independent Scotland would be the shining beacon on a hill that fed-up English left-liberals imagine it would be, then we need only imagine the third thing a post-independence SNP administration would do, after burning every remaining Union Jack in the country and starting the EU accession process. Bring back the Named Persons Scheme, which intended to impose a social worker on every family in Scotland (presumably so that any parent caught voting Tory could have their children seized, or something very like it,) and which was only frustrated by the intervention of the UK Supreme Court.
There's a temptation, for some of us, because the regime under which we live is very flawed and we don't like it very much, to look elsewhere - to the leaders of lands who make noises with which we agree, but of whose rule we in fact know almost nothing - and to leap to the conclusion that life must be so much better over there. This is not necessarily the case.
Golly, haven't you noticed the level of Scotch expertise on PB?
Looking at it from the outside, the problem for any Party actively choosing to vote against the current Draft Trade Deal is no one will be interested in hearing why.
The current mood is pre-occupied with Coronavirus and will be one of relief we have escaped the likely chaos of "No Deal". The Draft Deal may be very good, it may not but for the vast majority it won't be an issue. It will simply be one less thing to worry about or to obsess over.
Obviously, this will work to the Government's advantage in the short term. A Deal has been done, Brexit has been "delivered" as promised but it's the virus that is in more people's minds right now and the fact remains there is a huge amount still to do.
The medium term issue then becomes as the virus and Brexit fade into memory, we will move into "business as usual" (BAU) Government. As I've always said, it's not the big things - many will rally to the Government in times of crisis and the Opposition is in a difficult position because they would have probably done the same - but the small things. The Government "by cock-up" day to day little incidents which become crises and cost a Minister.
Governments fail not if they get the big things wrong but if they get the small things wrong. Basic competence and the failure to exhibit that is far more damaging than ant national crisis. The test of Johnson was never going to be Brexit or Coronavirus but how he governs on a day-to-day basis and how he deals with the little things that pop up from nowhere.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Perhaps, or perhaps that is an indicator that far greater success is possible.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
It's about values.
Or about covering gaps in substance with symbols.
Voters need to know you value the same things they do before they'll vote for you.
Quite. And it is why I cannot vote Tory. The current Tory party does not value integrity. It does not value honesty. It values doing favours for friends over getting the best person for the job. It values lies over being honest with the electorate. It values the already rich over young entrepreneurs trying to build a business.
You need to look at the beams in the eyes of the party you support before criticising the motes in other parties.
What will happen to SW Lib Dem voters now Brexit is done? Any chance they reclaim their former heartlands now?
I am not an expert on the Lib Dems!
I think there's only one seat in the South West where the LDs have a meaningful chance of winning in the next two election cycles: St Ives. (Which is rather more "Remainy" than most of the rest of the SW.)
It will be interesting to see how the local elections play out in 2021
In the Cornwall Unitary Authority the LDs were about seven points behind the Conservatives in 2017, getting 29% of the vote. In Devon (at the County Council level), the LDs were second with a fairly feeble 21%. Right now, you'd expect the LDs to fall back a bit, but who knows what's happening on the ground.
The Lib Dems took the council in Torquay at the local elections and would expect to mount a challenge to the parliamentary constituency next time. A lot will depend on how badly the fishing sell out goes in Brixham. That is in Torbay council but the Totnes constituency and the LDs will hope to do well there as well.
Funniest, least informed post of the year!
What a stupid response Mark. Torbay was a LD constituency until relatively recently and they will certainly be aiming to retake it at some point. Totnes is also a target. If brexit fails to deliver the coastal communities fantasy the voters are likely to want to find someone to blame. Of course if brexit does solve the problems of coastal poverty the tories will be fine. But lets be honest, it won't.
@MarqueeMark lives in Torquay and his forecasts for the constituency have proven prescient over the years.
2024 is a long time way away in political terms. To suggest 3 years out that any constituency (particularly one which has changed hands within the last 10 years) is out of reach is, in my view, stupid. If brexit delivers real benefits for coastal communities the Tories will do well. If it goes badly the Tories will get a kicking and in Torbay that will benefit the LDs.
Torbay also has the added complication of having a not very well liked local MP. In that context Totnes is probably safer for the Tories.
Kevin Foster may not be very popular with Torbay's LibDem members. That I could believe.....
I have no intention of sinking to personal abuse Mark. I find that those that do tend to already know they have a very weak argument. I have talked to many about Foster, including many who voted for him, and know what they think. I suggest you do the same. You might learn something.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.
The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
Do you have any source for that?
I'd have guessed 10k.
In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.
Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.
When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.
He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.
Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄
When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?
Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious
You do know they are 'skippers'
Who cares?
Failing to address the points I raise though.
Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?
Answer came there none...
You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned
You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work
BigG - you do realise that (a) some of us have miners in their family trees and that (b) without them whole communities would have frozen to death? And that fishing in the old sense was never wholly sustainable? it's quite clear that permanent damage was done to the ecosystem over the decades and centuries.
Mining played a role as does fishing and both are very dangerous occupations
My late father in law, a highly successful north east fisherman, used to say to me as we chatted all things fishing in the sixties that while both mining and fishing saw lives lost he admired miners so much as he could never have gone down a colliery
Mining and coal are over but sustainable fishing is not
Sustainable mining is not over, actually. In fact there is an opencast mine within 5 minutes of my house.
There is one in Leicestershire too.
Not much employment though. Indeed that is a feature of most primary producing industries. A friend of mine runs a 2000 acre mixed farm with just himself, his son and one farmhand. A century or so ago it would have employed 10 times that.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
You are nothing but invective and righteous indignation so those in glass houses...
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You realise that the SNP is a pure protest party?
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
The issue with a lot of English admirers of the SNP is that they think they're the best thing since sliced bread because (a) they wave the EU flag at regular intervals and (b) they're the only political party not of the Right that has had any significant degree of success in Great Britain during the last fifteen years.
To truly assess whether or not an independent Scotland would be the shining beacon on a hill that fed-up English left-liberals imagine it would be, then we need only imagine the third thing a post-independence SNP administration would do, after burning every remaining Union Jack in the country and starting the EU accession process. Bring back the Named Persons Scheme, which intended to impose a social worker on every family in Scotland (presumably so that any parent caught voting Tory could have their children seized, or something very like it,) and which was only frustrated by the intervention of the UK Supreme Court.
There's a temptation, for some of us, because the regime under which we live is very flawed and we don't like it very much, to look elsewhere - to the leaders of lands who make noises with which we agree, but of whose rule we in fact know almost nothing - and to leap to the conclusion that life must be so much better over there. This is not necessarily the case.
IIRC, the UKSC were happy with the [edit] basic aims and approach of the bill itself - it was technical legal problems over data sharing that killed it.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Perhaps, or perhaps that is an indicator that far greater success is possible.
The reliance on Britain as a base for technical expertise might also never have happened in the first place without the effect of the quota system.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
I'm up for an argument.
The Tories don't get to define patriotism and love of country. They don't get to call Labour unpatriotic simply because Labour loves different aspects of this country, aspects which many in the Tory party have sneered at or ignored.
Patriotism is not a party political matter and those parties who try to make it so are playing a dangerous and silly game. Let's look, for instance, at how much dodgy Russian money finances the Tory party. Were I to reveal some of what I know about that - which my confidentiality obligations prohibit me from doing - your hair would stand on end. So I view the Tory party's claims to be the patriotic party with a jaundiced eye.
And look at some of the things that Britain and Brits are respected for in today’s world - the BBC, our independent legal system, our apolitical officials, our promotion and respect for international law - and you find today’s Conservatives undermining them all.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
You are nothing but invective and righteous indignation so those in glass houses...
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
Here we need to differentiate between the old left and the modern left. This is what many on the modern Labour left say, but their actions and freak outs reveal otherwise. Great British heroes like Churchill need to be torn down as they were supposedly bad people, the Proms needs to be overhauled as it is too "white" (and therefore ghastly), Brexit is appalling "English nationalism" (and therefore worse as being English is ghastly - the Welsh can be excused), there's no such thing as native Brits because we are all immigrants if you go far enough back (unlike native Americans or Australians), preferring the English language to be spoken around you in your English home town is racist (unlike Welsh, Gaelic or Irish which is cultural heritage) etc etc.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The point about quotas in the film industry as a symbol of many broader policies that are forgotten is a very, very good one. The post-Thatcherite Right, and in fact the post-Thatcherite centre, saw this sort of this thing as somehow irredeemably French and alien, the sort of thing that could never have happened, and would never happen, here. Whereas in fact, you're right ; without the quotas getting the British music hall and other traditions into cinema, the Carry On films and many others of many other genres would never have happened, and Britain probably wouldn't still have had anything like the technical expertise to get films like Star Wars made here in the 1970s.
I agree. And we do bung film companies a lot of taxpayers' and lottery players' cash to film here, which is no different in practise.
I am also quite intrigued by internationally successful British TV shows like The Avengers, Thunderbirds, The Saint etc., and the economics behind those.
'Cry betrayal' makes me thinking of someone 'crying wolf' as if they are claiming betrayal which doesn't exist, or not yet, which I doubt is the intention. Though as betrayal is in quotations, perhaps it is.
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You realise that the SNP is a pure protest party?
The SNP's antics are precisely the sort of thing that give Farage a platform.
If you were Scottish you'd be mad to dive off the cliff.
The issue with a lot of English admirers of the SNP is that they think they're the best thing since sliced bread because (a) they wave the EU flag at regular intervals and (b) they're the only political party not of the Right that has had any significant degree of success in Great Britain during the last fifteen years.
To truly assess whether or not an independent Scotland would be the shining beacon on a hill that fed-up English left-liberals imagine it would be, then we need only imagine the third thing a post-independence SNP administration would do, after burning every remaining Union Jack in the country and starting the EU accession process. Bring back the Named Persons Scheme, which intended to impose a social worker on every family in Scotland (presumably so that any parent caught voting Tory could have their children seized, or something very like it,) and which was only frustrated by the intervention of the UK Supreme Court.
There's a temptation, for some of us, because the regime under which we live is very flawed and we don't like it very much, to look elsewhere - to the leaders of lands who make noises with which we agree, but of whose rule we in fact know almost nothing - and to leap to the conclusion that life must be so much better over there. This is not necessarily the case.
Golly, haven't you noticed the level of Scotch expertise on PB?
We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.
But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.
The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.
Apart from that...
How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!
The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
And misogyny too. You need to watch your wording.
So let me get this straight. It's okay to call Johnson a c***, but not okay to call Sturgeon a woman?
Me?! I always (almost) call him Mr Johnson, which is a sight more than most people on PB.
Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you directly. Just the general tone of debate when it comes to Johnson on here.
Our Scottish Nationalist posters are very upset and sensitive on here today.
That should tell us a lot.
Always a bit wounding when the touchiest, most thin skinned poster on PB by some distance describes us as upset and sensitive.
Yeah. Unionist patriotism flagwavingly wonderful and compulsory, Scottish patriotism unacceptable.
If I were Scots, I would vote independence 100%. These Brexiteer jingos make me embarrassed* to be British.
"Though of course, being embarrassed and offended by my countrymen shows what an authentic Brit I am! 🤣
You want Scottish independence because you think Britons must be made to pay a price for Brexit that directly strikes at the sense of nation they were hoping to regain.
I understand that point of view. I don't respect it.
No, I would much rather have an SNP type government in Westminster. I don't want Scottish independence mainly because it will condemn us South of the border to Faragite hegemony. If I were Scottish though, I wouldn't hesitate. It is just the jealousy of a nation escaping in a lifeboat, seen from those abandoned on a bleak shore.
You want the SNP but you don't want the SNP but you do want the SNP because Farage and you want to join the SNP in a boat.. or something.
Ok.
Wanting grown up government, in place of the lazy and dishonest student politician currently in office, isn’t so bad, or difficult to understand.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
The language barrier between it and Hollywood is probably a greater factor though. See how much more distinct French Canadian films are from their southern neighbour than English language ones.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
Here we need to differentiate between the old left and the modern left. This is what many on the modern Labour left say, but their actions and freak outs reveal otherwise. Great British heroes like Churchill need to be torn down as they were supposedly bad people, the Proms needs to be overhauled as it is too "white" (and therefore ghastly), Brexit is appalling "English nationalism" (and therefore worse as being English is ghastly - the Welsh can be excused), there's no such thing as native Brits because we are all immigrants if you go far enough back (unlike native Americans or Australians), preferring the English language to be spoken around you in your English home town is racist (unlike Welsh, Gaelic or Irish which is cultural heritage) etc etc.
I am a Labour member and I can tell you with confidence 99% of us do not agree at all with this and I don't recognise this characterisation of Labour members.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
Here we need to differentiate between the old left and the modern left. This is what many on the modern Labour left say, but their actions and freak outs reveal otherwise. Great British heroes like Churchill need to be torn down as they were supposedly bad people, the Proms needs to be overhauled as it is too "white" (and therefore ghastly), Brexit is appalling "English nationalism" (and therefore worse as being English is ghastly - the Welsh can be excused), there's no such thing as native Brits because we are all immigrants if you go far enough back (unlike native Americans or Australians), preferring the English language to be spoken around you in your English home town is racist (unlike Welsh, Gaelic or Irish which is cultural heritage) etc etc.
Nonsense. Try reading something other than the Daily Mail.
'Cry betrayal' makes me thinking of someone 'crying wolf' as if they are claiming betrayal which doesn't exist, or not yet, which I doubt is the intention. Though as betrayal is in quotations, perhaps it is.
The remarkable spectacle here is the SNP, moaning that the Fishing section of the deal with the EU is a treacherous act of national folly, which only keeps 75% of out fish and hands over much of our precious cod, haddock and gurnards to the evil Spaniards..... even tho SNP official policy is, as soon as indy is achieved, to go straight back into the EU, and into the Common Fisheries Policy, immediately giving ALL of Scotland's fish back to the evil Spaniards with nothing in return.
There must be a Secret SNP University, where they all do Phds in Advanced Hypocrisy. Because they carry off this ludicrous shit with notable chutzpah - tho they are aided by a cowed and abject national media.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
I have no idea why you think this is invective and righteous indignation Casino. It seems a fairly fair representation of the way many young people feel.
Politicians who fail to listen to those views and chose to dismiss them instead are in for a difficult ride with the young.
I don't take kindly to "why on earth" and similar phrases used to emotionally vent at me publicly at my expense, particularly from someone I know personally and socially.
Non-sequitur on the latter point. I have never argued for dismissing the views of young people or their concerns, and indeed I've posted my own suggestions on that.
I am aware there are no final victories in politics, but the internecine wars of the last five years are over - finished. Done.
That doesn't mean there won't be a debate over what comes next.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
Here we need to differentiate between the old left and the modern left. This is what many on the modern Labour left say, but their actions and freak outs reveal otherwise. Great British heroes like Churchill need to be torn down as they were supposedly bad people, the Proms needs to be overhauled as it is too "white" (and therefore ghastly), Brexit is appalling "English nationalism" (and therefore worse as being English is ghastly - the Welsh can be excused), there's no such thing as native Brits because we are all immigrants if you go far enough back (unlike native Americans or Australians), preferring the English language to be spoken around you in your English home town is racist (unlike Welsh, Gaelic or Irish which is cultural heritage) etc etc.
I am a Labour member and I can tell you with confidence 99% of us do not agree at all with this and I don't recognise this characterisation of Labour members.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Thousands of students will be able to study and do work placements across the world through a brand new scheme that replaces the UK’s participation in Erasmus+.
The Turing scheme will be backed by over £100 million, providing funding for around 35,000 students in universities, colleges and schools to go on placements and exchanges overseas, starting in September 2021.
The new scheme will also target students from disadvantaged backgrounds and areas which did not previously have many students benefiting from Erasmus+, making life-changing opportunities accessible to everyone across the country.
Thats about double the number of UK students who participated in Erasmus+
Although coronavirus is now affecting student mobility, figures from before the pandemic showed that about half of UK university students who studied abroad did so through Erasmus. In 2017, 16,561 UK students participated in Erasmus, while 31,727 EU nationals came to the UK.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own self-identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money and box office receipts.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
I'm up for an argument.
The Tories don't get to define patriotism and love of country. They don't get to call Labour unpatriotic simply because Labour loves different aspects of this country, aspects which many in the Tory party have sneered at or ignored.
Patriotism is not a party political matter and those parties who try to make it so are playing a dangerous and silly game. Let's look, for instance, at how much dodgy Russian money finances the Tory party. Were I to reveal some of what I know about that - which my confidentiality obligations prohibit me from doing - your hair would stand on end. So I view the Tory party's claims to be the patriotic party with a jaundiced eye.
You're arguing with a straw man.
I never said patriotism was party political. I was highlighting why voters (the crucial swing voters - soft Tories) aren't currently giving Labour an audience.
It's key to them regaining office. I was trying to be helpful.
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
Thousands of students will be able to study and do work placements across the world through a brand new scheme that replaces the UK’s participation in Erasmus+.
The Turing scheme will be backed by over £100 million, providing funding for around 35,000 students in universities, colleges and schools to go on placements and exchanges overseas, starting in September 2021.
The new scheme will also target students from disadvantaged backgrounds and areas which did not previously have many students benefiting from Erasmus+, making life-changing opportunities accessible to everyone across the country.
Thats about double the number of UK students who participated in Erasmus+
Although coronavirus is now affecting student mobility, figures from before the pandemic showed that about half of UK university students who studied abroad did so through Erasmus. In 2017, 16,561 UK students participated in Erasmus, while 31,727 EU nationals came to the UK.
This sounds like a clever and commendable evolution of Erasmus, which - in toto - was tilted to the benefit of EU students who wanted to come to good, English-speaking universities in the UK; and which cost the UK taxpayer more than was gained.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as their films doing for their heritage and identity.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
I'm up for an argument.
The Tories don't get to define patriotism and love of country. They don't get to call Labour unpatriotic simply because Labour loves different aspects of this country, aspects which many in the Tory party have sneered at or ignored.
Patriotism is not a party political matter and those parties who try to make it so are playing a dangerous and silly game. Let's look, for instance, at how much dodgy Russian money finances the Tory party. Were I to reveal some of what I know about that - which my confidentiality obligations prohibit me from doing - your hair would stand on end. So I view the Tory party's claims to be the patriotic party with a jaundiced eye.
You're arguing with a straw man.
I never said patriotism was party political. I was highlighting why voters (the crucial swing voters - soft Tories) aren't currently giving Labour an audience.
It's key to them regaining office. I was trying to be helpful.
Well clearly they are listening to Labour, and swinging to them. That is why Labour is polling 10% ahead of where it was this time last year.
Weird article. The acclaimed Asif Kapadia film that came out last year is so very powerful precisely because it does full justice to the sense of tragedy that his life exemplifies: a sublime talent brought low by a mixture of self and circumstance.
Arguing with Casino_Royale on this issue is so tiring. He makes a point and when responded to he just sticks fingers in ears and goes "la la la".
I agree Labour has a patriotism problem but Labour can become a patriotic party with its currently 2017-lite policy platform.
I think paying our NHS staff and carers a fair wage, ensuring social care is available to all, helping young people into affordable housing and into (cheaper) education, protecting the environment, properly funding our armed forces and supporting them after retirement, are all things a patriotic Government can do.
I think running our public services ourselves rather than foreign Governments, I think investing in our own people, I think investing in renewable energy and becoming a world leader, I think FTTP for all, are all policies of a patriotic Government.
These are all the policies of Labour, that's patriotism. We should not allow it to be defined within the narrow confines of a culture war.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
I have no idea why you think this is invective and righteous indignation Casino. It seems a fairly fair representation of the way many young people feel.
Politicians who fail to listen to those views and chose to dismiss them instead are in for a difficult ride with the young.
I don't take kindly to "why on earth" and similar phrases used to emotionally vent at me publicly at my expense, particularly from someone I know personally and socially.
Non-sequitur on the latter point. I have never argued for dismissing the views of young people or their concerns, and indeed I've posted my own suggestions on that.
I am aware there are no final victories in politics, but the internecine wars of the last five years are over - finished. Done.
That doesn't mean there won't be a debate over what comes next.
You state with some certainty that certain arguments are done. I am telling you that my children's generation are angry - very angry - about what has happened. They are not done - by any means - and those who think that they are are being complacent.
One thing the last few years has taught me - and the last year in particular - is to listen far more to my children and their views and experience and that of their friends, especially when they don't coincide with my own, because they have a stake in this country and will be living here long after I am gone.
If you think "why on earth" is invective - well I smile at that. I can do invective. I have yet to do it on PB and never will because it is pointless, as well as rude.
But let me assure you that if I did you'd be longing for the day when a reply to one of your posts only contained such a phrase.
BTW I sent you a personal VM which I hope you got.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
The movie "Les Miserables" was one of the best and most nuanced films of the last year. Very timely and topical too.
As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.
Wise words from your posts this afternoon.
My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.
Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
Let Labour point the way forward once again.
I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.
You won't like all of it.
It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.
Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.
He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.
They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.
I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.
There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.
Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.
Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.
Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
It's about values.
Or about covering gaps in substance with symbols.
Voters need to know you value the same things they do before they'll vote for you.
Quite. And it is why I cannot vote Tory. The current Tory party does not value integrity. It does not value honesty. It values doing favours for friends over getting the best person for the job. It values lies over being honest with the electorate. It values the already rich over young entrepreneurs trying to build a business.
You need to look at the beams in the eyes of the party you support before criticising the motes in other parties.
With respect, I can critique whatever I like and will continue to do so.
I have criticised aspects of the present day Tory party, including Boris, his chumocracy, his attempted proroguing of parliament in 2019, the IMB, and his appointments to the Lords. I have said I don't think he's up to the job of being PM, and I think there are others that would do better, and I have said he's damaged the Conservative brand.
I am able to do all of that. And I am also able to critique the failings of the Labour Party as well. So you don't get to "call me out" on that. Not a bit of it.
It might have escaped your attention but if Labour were a more credible and competitive opposition then it would be able to exert more pressure and influence on the Government to the benefit of us all.
That starts with showing the crucial swing voters that it shares their values. So less preaching and more listening please.
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
Doesn't the Guardian do that bit?
The Guardian is just as bad but in the opposite direction.
- Oxford virus will be approved in days, if not hours.
- A big reshuffle is coming, much sooner than expected.
- Sajid Javid to come back to a significant job.
Seems a bit pointless for Javid to resign on a matter of principle then slink back like that. Be funny if he came back as Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the job Rishi had under Javid.
But a reshuffle is always a welcome event for some interest. Often a bit disappointing though, as the big names remain in situ.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
I have no idea why you think this is invective and righteous indignation Casino. It seems a fairly fair representation of the way many young people feel.
Politicians who fail to listen to those views and chose to dismiss them instead are in for a difficult ride with the young.
I don't take kindly to "why on earth" and similar phrases used to emotionally vent at me publicly at my expense, particularly from someone I know personally and socially.
Non-sequitur on the latter point. I have never argued for dismissing the views of young people or their concerns, and indeed I've posted my own suggestions on that.
I am aware there are no final victories in politics, but the internecine wars of the last five years are over - finished. Done.
That doesn't mean there won't be a debate over what comes next.
You state with some certainty that certain arguments are done. I am telling you that my children's generation are angry - very angry - about what has happened. They are not done - by any means - and those who think that they are are being complacent.
One thing the last few years has taught me - and the last year in particular - is to listen far more to my children and their views and experience and that of their friends, especially when they don't coincide with my own, because they have a stake in this country and will be living here long after I am gone.
If you think "why on earth" is invective - well I smile at that. I can do invective. I have yet to do it on PB and never will because it is pointless, as well as rude.
But let me assure you that if I did you'd be longing for the day when a reply to one of your posts only contained such a phrase.
BTW I sent you a personal VM which I hope you got.
I have children of my own, thank you very much.
You've simply (and disrespectfully) seen me as an emblem of a "Leaver" and a "Tory" this evening and have chosen to attack me accordingly.
I won't be checking my messages for a while now. Too angry.
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
Doesn't the Guardian do that bit?
The Guardian is just as bad but in the opposite direction.
But it all evens out in the end, with both parties receiving scrutiny.
The deal is getting about as much UK Parliamentary scrutiny as most EU directives did before they were transposed into UK law. In fact more than most.
That is utter twaddle. For a period as a government lawyer I was involved in the scrutinising of EU Directives and both inside government and in Parliament they got much more scrutiny than this deal.
A review of the agreement every 5 years is baked in, just as long as we have between GEs, so if there are big issues with it on either side then they can be addressed in 2025.
As for the trench warfare idea - no. This won't be the end of UK-EU disputes, discussions or initiatives (those will never end as we are very close neighbours will different ways of doing things) but, aside from the irreconcilables on both sides, the war is over.
"War".
Why on earth do you think that, if those who were on the losing side of a referendum won by a vastly bigger margin than this one, did not give up, those on the losing side this time will? Or should?
My children felt dismayed by the Brexit referendum, have been shafted by the government's response to Covid and see little hope of getting any of the things older generations have taken for granted - a secure good job, a pension, savings, the chance to buy a home. They vote. They're not going to assume that they do not have a right to change the world we leave them to suit them better. And nor should they.
Dial down the invective and righteous indignation please.
You're at your least interesting in that mode.
I have no idea why you think this is invective and righteous indignation Casino. It seems a fairly fair representation of the way many young people feel.
Politicians who fail to listen to those views and chose to dismiss them instead are in for a difficult ride with the young.
I don't take kindly to "why on earth" and similar phrases used to emotionally vent at me publicly at my expense, particularly from someone I know personally and socially.
Non-sequitur on the latter point. I have never argued for dismissing the views of young people or their concerns, and indeed I've posted my own suggestions on that.
I am aware there are no final victories in politics, but the internecine wars of the last five years are over - finished. Done.
That doesn't mean there won't be a debate over what comes next.
You state with some certainty that certain arguments are done. I am telling you that my children's generation are angry - very angry - about what has happened. They are not done - by any means - and those who think that they are are being complacent.
One thing the last few years has taught me - and the last year in particular - is to listen far more to my children and their views and experience and that of their friends, especially when they don't coincide with my own, because they have a stake in this country and will be living here long after I am gone.
If you think "why on earth" is invective - well I smile at that. I can do invective. I have yet to do it on PB and never will because it is pointless, as well as rude.
But let me assure you that if I did you'd be longing for the day when a reply to one of your posts only contained such a phrase.
BTW I sent you a personal VM which I hope you got.
I have children of my own, thank you very much.
You've simply (and disrespectfully) seen me as an emblem of a "Leaver" and a "Tory" this evening and have chosen to attack me accordingly.
I won't be checking my messages for a while now. Too angry.
I'm really enjoying the debate between two intellectual heavyweights.
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
So basically you are only interested if it 's a tory involved - honest at least.
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
Doesn't the Guardian do that bit?
The Guardian is just as bad but in the opposite direction.
But it all evens out in the end, with both parties receiving scrutiny.
Not really, since people will typically only read one so won't hear the other side, without obfuscation or whataboutery.
But there's not much market for balance in the written press (not much in broadcast either, but a bit more there perhaps).
Barrie, Barrie, Barrie, don't look at what the actual government in actual charge of the actual UK and yer actual Brexit did, just think about what the SNP would have done. Not in Wangland of course but still, it should make you think!
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
Doesn't the Guardian do that bit?
The Guardian is just as bad but in the opposite direction.
But it all evens out in the end, with both parties receiving scrutiny.
Not really, since people will typically only read one so won't hear the other side, without obfuscation or whataboutery.
But there's not much market for balance in the written press (not much in broadcast either, but a bit more there perhaps).
Yeah, if there was appetite for a neutral newspaper there would be one.
I am aware there are no final victories in politics, but the internecine wars of the last five years are over - finished. Done.
That doesn't mean there won't be a debate over what comes next.
As indeed there should be and it should be a debate into which all views should be welcomed and encouraged. As you have said, the "uncivil" war of the last four and a half years is over and the mood must now be one of mutual reconciliation and the triumphalism and sour grapes in which some have continued to indulge has to end.
For better or worse, the decision has been taken for now and we have to try to make it work while recognising the limitations and problems the Deal still provides (the Services sector being one such).
The bigger debate over the UK's place in the world is still to happen. I'm all for "Global Britain" if I knew what that meant because, like so many other things, it seems to mean different things to different people, I've no desire to live in a low-tax, low-regulation economy pandering to the interests of billionaires and mega-corporations.
That wouldn't be a Britain I would recognise or want to recognise. We have to continue to be the best we can be not just for our citizens but for those anxious to come here to offer their skills and knowledge or to learn from us. Improving the world isn't a bad ideal to which to aspire whether through education, innovative policy-making or good governance. That requires us to be outward-looking and willing to look at other ideas.
Comments
A practical problem raised by Alastair's piece: undoubtedly there will be errors in a document of this length, and things which don't work quite as the negotiators expected. Is there an agreed UK/EU procedure for revision that doesn't take forever?
Cyclefree is, by the way, correct that EU directives were subject to detailed scrutiny procedures in Parliament, through European Standing Committees A, B and C (for different areas). Typically each Directive would have 90 minutes of discussion, often with notably high-quality contributions which seemed genuinely helpful to the Ministers who ewould be implementing and/or seeking to amend them.
It was a quirk of politics that Conservative MPs, often critical of European legislation in general, tended not to turn up for these sessions -often there were no Conservatives present at all, or only one or two of the 10 or so on the committee. Since we were discussing legislation already signed off by the British Government, it's true that we weren't voting on them, and I think the Tories felt they were therefore wasating their times - but you could say that about every Bill committee where you do vote as well, since the votes are normally a formality if the Government has a majority.
Media coverage was zero, in the same way that adjournment debates (which also don't have votes) are almost never reported - the idea of having a constructive discussion withouit a vote is alien to British media culture.
https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
Politicians who fail to listen to those views and chose to dismiss them instead are in for a difficult ride with the young.
The Tories don't get to define patriotism and love of country. They don't get to call Labour unpatriotic simply because Labour loves different aspects of this country, aspects which many in the Tory party have sneered at or ignored.
Patriotism is not a party political matter and those parties who try to make it so are playing a dangerous and silly game. Let's look, for instance, at how much dodgy Russian money finances the Tory party. Were I to reveal some of what I know about that - which my confidentiality obligations prohibit me from doing - your hair would stand on end. So I view the Tory party's claims to be the patriotic party with a jaundiced eye.
My late father in law, a highly successful north east fisherman, used to say to me as we chatted all things fishing in the sixties that while both mining and fishing saw lives lost he admired miners so much as he could never have gone down a colliery
Mining and coal are over but sustainable fishing is not
"99.The Agreement builds on existing precedent and sets out the arrangements
for the operation of air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK
airlines that are majority owned and controlled by UK and/ or EU/EEA/EFTA
nationals at the end of December 2020 may continue to operate air transport
services between the UK and the EU. EU airlines that are majority owned and
controlled by EU/EEA/EFTA nationals may also continue to operate air
transport services between the UK and the EU.
100. The Agreement provides operational flexibilities for UK and EU airlines.
For example, UK airlines may lease aircraft and crew from UK or EU airlines
and other providers to operate air transport services between the UK and the
EU. UK airlines will also have extensive opportunities to cooperate with other
airlines to offer a wide range of tickets to consumers.
101. The Agreement reflects the shared ambition of both the UK and the EU
to cooperate in future, including commitments for continued cooperation and
consultation on air traffic management, aviation security and consumer
protection.
102. The Agreement also sets out the conditions under which the operation
of air transport services between the UK and EU would not be permitted.
Grounds for such action include reasons of aviation safety and security.
Title II - Aviation safety
103. The Agreement is largely in line with precedent and sets out a
framework for cooperation on aviation safety, and a process for agreeing
Annexes to the agreement that will facilitate recognition of UK and EU
certificates, approvals and licences. Areas where the UK and EU could agree
Annexes in future include: monitoring of maintenance organisations;
personnel licences and training; operation of aircraft; and air traffic
management.
104. The airworthiness Annex to the Agreement sets out the conditions for
the UK and EU to recognise each other’s aeronautical products and designs.
For example, minor changes and repairs to aeronautical products and designs
that are approved in the UK will be automatically accepted by the EU. In
addition, the Annex foresees the possibility of the EU extending their scope of
automatic recognition of UK aeronautical products and designs once it gains
confidence in the UK’s capability for overseeing design certification.
105. The Annex also provides for the recognition of production certificates
and regulatory oversight. For example, UK production certificates and
oversight will be automatically recognised by the EU providing that the
relevant aeronautical products were subject to UK oversight before the end of
December 2020."
Very different
Johnson has a majority of 80 and if he cannot get his bill through parliament without them they should take the view that it will be his problem.
My view would be different if I felt it was a good deal, but I do not.
And this (admittedly from 2016) shows why it is a good question:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-37777168
"The largest numbers of foreign workers were in the white fish fleet and prawn trawlers, and more were found in the North Sea fleet than the west coast."
"Bigger east-coast vessels that work outside 12 miles do not have a problem, as foreign crews can be given work visas because the boats work outside UK territorial waters."
Do you not see that the problem is a capitalist system that has driven down payrates for Scottish crews to such a point that no one wants to do so?
To truly assess whether or not an independent Scotland would be the shining beacon on a hill that fed-up English left-liberals imagine it would be, then we need only imagine the third thing a post-independence SNP administration would do, after burning every remaining Union Jack in the country and starting the EU accession process. Bring back the Named Persons Scheme, which intended to impose a social worker on every family in Scotland (presumably so that any parent caught voting Tory could have their children seized, or something very like it,) and which was only frustrated by the intervention of the UK Supreme Court.
There's a temptation, for some of us, because the regime under which we live is very flawed and we don't like it very much, to look elsewhere - to the leaders of lands who make noises with which we agree, but of whose rule we in fact know almost nothing - and to leap to the conclusion that life must be so much better over there. This is not necessarily the case.
I understood my late father in laws views on this and many other subjects
He was simply the best, kindest, and most generous person you could ever want as a father in law and we spoke many times into the wee small hours about his life and times at sea
People may not like the sort of patriotism Starmer espouses. But it clearly exists and is coherent, and is closer to reality than "every Victorian statue reflects things we want to think about ourselves now". Because apart from statues and snarling cultural cringe, what exactly is the patriotism of this iteration of the Conservative Party?
He is a Sir, he did public service for a long time on behalf of the country, believes in democracy, believes in the army and the Monarchy. He is a supporter of the Armed Forces.
That is patriotic to me.
That should have been sufficient warning to stay in bed all year through 2020.....
Pull yourself together.
Looking at it from the outside, the problem for any Party actively choosing to vote against the current Draft Trade Deal is no one will be interested in hearing why.
The current mood is pre-occupied with Coronavirus and will be one of relief we have escaped the likely chaos of "No Deal". The Draft Deal may be very good, it may not but for the vast majority it won't be an issue. It will simply be one less thing to worry about or to obsess over.
Obviously, this will work to the Government's advantage in the short term. A Deal has been done, Brexit has been "delivered" as promised but it's the virus that is in more people's minds right now and the fact remains there is a huge amount still to do.
The medium term issue then becomes as the virus and Brexit fade into memory, we will move into "business as usual" (BAU) Government. As I've always said, it's not the big things - many will rally to the Government in times of crisis and the Opposition is in a difficult position because they would have probably done the same - but the small things. The Government "by cock-up" day to day little incidents which become crises and cost a Minister.
Governments fail not if they get the big things wrong but if they get the small things wrong. Basic competence and the failure to exhibit that is far more damaging than ant national crisis. The test of Johnson was never going to be Brexit or Coronavirus but how he governs on a day-to-day basis and how he deals with the little things that pop up from nowhere.
You need to look at the beams in the eyes of the party you support before criticising the motes in other parties.
Not much employment though. Indeed that is a feature of most primary producing industries. A friend of mine runs a 2000 acre mixed farm with just himself, his son and one farmhand. A century or so ago it would have employed 10 times that.
I am also quite intrigued by internationally successful British TV shows like The Avengers, Thunderbirds, The Saint etc., and the economics behind those.
You get a different form.
The language barrier between it and Hollywood is probably a greater factor though. See how much more distinct French Canadian films are from their southern neighbour than English language ones.
"Diego Maradona was not a victim
We have no sense of the tragic, only of victimhood, says Theodore Dalrymple"
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/january-february-2021/diego-maradona-was-not-a-victim/
There must be a Secret SNP University, where they all do Phds in Advanced Hypocrisy. Because they carry off this ludicrous shit with notable chutzpah - tho they are aided by a cowed and abject national media.
Non-sequitur on the latter point. I have never argued for dismissing the views of young people or their concerns, and indeed I've posted my own suggestions on that.
I am aware there are no final victories in politics, but the internecine wars of the last five years are over - finished. Done.
That doesn't mean there won't be a debate over what comes next.
The Turing scheme will be backed by over £100 million, providing funding for around 35,000 students in universities, colleges and schools to go on placements and exchanges overseas, starting in September 2021.
The new scheme will also target students from disadvantaged backgrounds and areas which did not previously have many students benefiting from Erasmus+, making life-changing opportunities accessible to everyone across the country.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-turing-scheme-to-support-thousands-of-students-to-study-and-work-abroad
Thats about double the number of UK students who participated in Erasmus+
Although coronavirus is now affecting student mobility, figures from before the pandemic showed that about half of UK university students who studied abroad did so through Erasmus. In 2017, 16,561 UK students participated in Erasmus, while 31,727 EU nationals came to the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47293927
This strikes me as a classic own-goal by the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Blake
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/26/sadiq-khan-cronyism-row-untendered-contracts/
I never said patriotism was party political. I was highlighting why voters (the crucial swing voters - soft Tories) aren't currently giving Labour an audience.
It's key to them regaining office. I was trying to be helpful.
I would be far more interested if the Telegraph would look into the many allegations of corruption and cronyism in the Tory Party but alas, silence. Why?
http://news.sky.com/story/donor-to-brexit-backing-think-tank-in-talks-to-buy-gb-news-stake-12172737
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1342925894378270724?s=20
- Oxford virus will be approved in days, if not hours.
- A big reshuffle is coming, much sooner than expected.
- Sajid Javid to come back to a significant job.
I agree Labour has a patriotism problem but Labour can become a patriotic party with its currently 2017-lite policy platform.
I think paying our NHS staff and carers a fair wage, ensuring social care is available to all, helping young people into affordable housing and into (cheaper) education, protecting the environment, properly funding our armed forces and supporting them after retirement, are all things a patriotic Government can do.
I think running our public services ourselves rather than foreign Governments, I think investing in our own people, I think investing in renewable energy and becoming a world leader, I think FTTP for all, are all policies of a patriotic Government.
These are all the policies of Labour, that's patriotism. We should not allow it to be defined within the narrow confines of a culture war.
One thing the last few years has taught me - and the last year in particular - is to listen far more to my children and their views and experience and that of their friends, especially when they don't coincide with my own, because they have a stake in this country and will be living here long after I am gone.
If you think "why on earth" is invective - well I smile at that. I can do invective. I have yet to do it on PB and never will because it is pointless, as well as rude.
But let me assure you that if I did you'd be longing for the day when a reply to one of your posts only contained such a phrase.
BTW I sent you a personal VM which I hope you got.
https://player.bfi.org.uk/rentals/film/watch-les-miserables-2019-online
I have criticised aspects of the present day Tory party, including Boris, his chumocracy, his attempted proroguing of parliament in 2019, the IMB, and his appointments to the Lords. I have said I don't think he's up to the job of being PM, and I think there are others that would do better, and I have said he's damaged the Conservative brand.
I am able to do all of that. And I am also able to critique the failings of the Labour Party as well. So you don't get to "call me out" on that. Not a bit of it.
It might have escaped your attention but if Labour were a more credible and competitive opposition then it would be able to exert more pressure and influence on the Government to the benefit of us all.
That starts with showing the crucial swing voters that it shares their values. So less preaching and more listening please.
But a reshuffle is always a welcome event for some interest. Often a bit disappointing though, as the big names remain in situ.
You've simply (and disrespectfully) seen me as an emblem of a "Leaver" and a "Tory" this evening and have chosen to attack me accordingly.
I won't be checking my messages for a while now. Too angry.
But there's not much market for balance in the written press (not much in broadcast either, but a bit more there perhaps).
https://twitter.com/Karl_Downey/status/1342853532286930946?s=20
For better or worse, the decision has been taken for now and we have to try to make it work while recognising the limitations and problems the Deal still provides (the Services sector being one such).
The bigger debate over the UK's place in the world is still to happen. I'm all for "Global Britain" if I knew what that meant because, like so many other things, it seems to mean different things to different people, I've no desire to live in a low-tax, low-regulation economy pandering to the interests of billionaires and mega-corporations.
That wouldn't be a Britain I would recognise or want to recognise. We have to continue to be the best we can be not just for our citizens but for those anxious to come here to offer their skills and knowledge or to learn from us. Improving the world isn't a bad ideal to which to aspire whether through education, innovative policy-making or good governance. That requires us to be outward-looking and willing to look at other ideas.