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Cockney Covid: is it already everywhere? – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    I get that.

    Which makes a deal less valuable doesn't it?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Is there any way of hiding a particular individual's posts on this site?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid
    If you had been around in 1945, would you have told the Indians they couldn't be independent because a bunch of Tory MPs at Westminster said No? It was the British EMPIRE in gold glittering balls, after all, it said so on the thruppeny bits.
    Well Churchill did not agree to Indian independence no, it was only with the consent of the Attlee government that India was able to become independent
    I asked YOU what you would have done. But to clarify, as you correctly raise: when WSC was PM.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Is there any way of hiding a particular individual's posts on this site?

    Sadly not, I have asked before.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    Indeed. A referendum to leave the European Union. It's when Brexiteers decided that the EEA and CU were the EU that it started to wobble. The UK in EFTA with a customs deal would have honoured the referendum.
    It could have.

    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the referendum.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2017 election.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2019 election.
    A majority of people voted against leaving the single market in both 2017 and 2019.
    We elect our government by FPTP as confirmed by 2/3rds of voters in the last referendum on that.

    80 seat majority for leaving the Single Market.

    If leaving the Single Market goes badly then the public can overturn that in 2024 if they choose to do so.
    The UK can't unilaterally choose its relationship with the rest of Europe.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586

    Amid all the really very depressing news, a little light relief...

    The Orange Idiot still thinks he won 🤣

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1340996686257254403?s=20

    It's not light relief, this is getting rather scary.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1340915047225319424
    I accept it's all relative.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    Indeed. A referendum to leave the European Union. It's when Brexiteers decided that the EEA and CU were the EU that it started to wobble. The UK in EFTA with a customs deal would have honoured the referendum.
    It could have.

    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the referendum.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2017 election.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2019 election.
    A majority of people voted against leaving the single market in both 2017 and 2019.
    We elect our government by FPTP as confirmed by 2/3rds of voters in the last referendum on that.

    80 seat majority for leaving the Single Market.

    If leaving the Single Market goes badly then the public can overturn that in 2024 if they choose to do so.
    The UK can't unilaterally choose its relationship with the rest of Europe.
    It can unilaterally choose WTO.

    Anything else takes two to tango.
  • IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

    Affected by Tier 3.

    A lot of us are, but that doesn't answer the question. You do seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on here. I just strikes me that with your level of in-depth knowledge and experience of international trade patterns, just-in-time cross-border supply chains and high-level negotiation strategy you'd be rushed off your feet right now. But you don't seem to be.

  • IshmaelZ said:

    Is there any way of hiding a particular individual's posts on this site?

    If you want a FBPE echo chamber can I suggest Twitter?
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020
    I think Ishmael might have been referring to my posts, to be honest! Always nice to have a fan
  • Can you imagine if Trump actually does find hard evidence of fraud, even in one state?

    The little orange boy who cried wolf?

    (Not the NI sort)
  • In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    I get that.

    Which makes a deal less valuable doesn't it?

    Absolutely. Whatever happens, our businesses will be far less free to do the business they want to do, while the cost of doing business in our single biggest export market will be much higher.

  • IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

    Affected by Tier 3.

    A lot of us are, but that doesn't answer the question. You do seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on here. I just strikes me that with your level of in-depth knowledge and experience of international trade patterns, just-in-time cross-border supply chains and high-level negotiation strategy you'd be rushed off your feet right now. But you don't seem to be.

    I'd rather not get into my own personal business dealings on a public forum where I post in my own name to be frank.
  • Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    MLE is anyway the main lower class accent in those parts these days. It has elbowed Cockney out since urban London has been improved by diversity.

    In any case, it could have been spotted first in Brazil last spring. In which case it's Carioca or Paulista COVID?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/21/supercharged-covid-mutation-spotted-brazil-last-spring/

    MLE. A truly hideous accent. Worse than Strine or South African. Makes Americans sound like the Queen

    Happily, MLE seems to be transient. Teenspeak. Aspirational Londoners realise it is a handicap and a problem, and lose it as they mature.
    Chattin bear shit fam. MLE is peng.
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    I get that.

    Which makes a deal less valuable doesn't it?

    Absolutely. Whatever happens, our businesses will be far less free to do the business they want to do, while the cost of doing business in our single biggest export market will be much higher.

    Indeed. That is why I nearly voted to Remain.

    But that argument lost the referendum and two subsequent General Elections. Time to move on now.
  • US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.
  • There are two meetings going on in Brussels, which could ultimately determine whether or not UK travellers will have to face the same set of restrictions no matter where they travel to in the EU.

    The first is a meeting of health officials, focused on examining this new mutated virus variant, using data sent from UK scientists.

    Then, officials in the EU’s crisis response team will meet to try and co-ordinate a single set of rules that every country can apply to UK travellers.

    But no decision is expected today. That’s the job for EU ambassadors when they meet via video conference tomorrow morning.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Or worse, vaccines not effective on mutant covid...
    Don't even go there please. Because so long as the vax does still work this is in the grand scheme of things a manageable blip in the story of the pandemic.
  • MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Is there any way of hiding a particular individual's posts on this site?

    If you want a FBPE echo chamber can I suggest Twitter?
    I had to google FBPE to see what it means. I did say "an individual," but if you choose to self-identify as the sort of repetitive loudmouthed bore that requires technological unpersoning, I am not going to argue with you.
  • MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.
    Indeed.

    Part of why the majority of our exports are global - despite being in the Single Market, despite democracy and despite the fact even timezones should mean we should trade more with our closest market.

    Even on WTO we will still trade with our neighbours on our continent and on comparable timezones just as we do trade with those half a world away on a different timezone on WTO terms.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I think Ishmael might have been referring to my posts, to be honest! Always nice to have a fan

    Nope. Not all about you.
  • IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

    Affected by Tier 3.

    A lot of us are, but that doesn't answer the question. You do seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on here. I just strikes me that with your level of in-depth knowledge and experience of international trade patterns, just-in-time cross-border supply chains and high-level negotiation strategy you'd be rushed off your feet right now. But you don't seem to be.

    I'd rather not get into my own personal business dealings on a public forum where I post in my own name to be frank.

    Fair enough. But you are on here a hell of a lot, aren't you? I dip in and out these days, and you are almost always around when I do drop in. I hope it all works out for you.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid

    Contrary to some on here, I entirely agree with you.

    Boris Johnson has made his position on Scottish Independence completely clear and the position is as you describe it until either he changes his position or he is no longer Prime Minister.

    Should there be a majority in the Commons after the next election for a second referendum, so be it. The Conservatives would presumably vote against any legislation empowering such a referendum but if they don't have the votes, that's democracy.

    The question I would pose is this - IF, in a future referendum, Scotland voted for independence but the process had not been completed before the next Westminster GE, do you think the Conservatives should campaign on a pledge to cancel the referendum result if they win a majority or do you think the Conservatives should respect the result of the referendum and work for a constructive separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

    It is F all to do with them and they can vote on what they want. It is for the people of Scotland to decide, we are not prisoners. At least arseholes like you and HYFUD show your contempt openly and don't try to pretend it is a union rather than a colonial hostage situation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    I get that.

    Which makes a deal less valuable doesn't it?

    Absolutely. Whatever happens, our businesses will be far less free to do the business they want to do, while the cost of doing business in our single biggest export market will be much higher.

    Indeed. That is why I nearly voted to Remain.

    But that argument lost the referendum and two subsequent General Elections. Time to move on now.
    The last GE was won on the lie of an 'oven-ready deal' though wasn't it?
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    edited December 2020
    I watched a presentation by Professor David Robertson, University of Glasgow here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CT9N89L-c&feature=youtu.be

    at 2:24:40. It does seem that COVID-19 has the tendency to accumulate mutations (this is normal in evolution and viruses can evolve much faster than elephants, say).

    It seems to me (science background but not a biologist) that humanity can only defeat a virus with vaccines if the vaccines can be rolled out and updated faster than the virus can evolve. We will probably push the virus back in 2021 initially with vaccination, but this could be stalled or go into reverse if the virus evolves further. I do not think the UK economy can last through the whole of 2021 in Tier 4 without serious damage which would affect the NHS.

    To defeat an evolving virus the world would ideally have the capacity to modify an existing vaccine and manufacture and deliver enough doses for everyone in the world in two or three months. If it is slower than this the virus could just evolve again making previous vaccines ineffective.

    This will require a ten-fold increase in vaccine manufacturing capacity. Licencing and testing regimes will have to adapt to live with this. Finally, vaccination will have to be compulsory for everyone who is breathing and who does not have a medical or other exemption.

    People may have to be called in to be revaccinated once or twice a year against the latest mutation. If you have a Windows computer you must update the operating system regularly to protect against viruses, and this is often done automatically. Eventually the fight against COVID 19 may have to be done in a similar way.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

    Affected by Tier 3.

    A lot of us are, but that doesn't answer the question. You do seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on here. I just strikes me that with your level of in-depth knowledge and experience of international trade patterns, just-in-time cross-border supply chains and high-level negotiation strategy you'd be rushed off your feet right now. But you don't seem to be.

    I'd rather not get into my own personal business dealings on a public forum where I post in my own name to be frank.
    If you're posting in your own name you are NOT being frank, are you?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited December 2020

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    He also makes this point.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010728392794116?s=20

    However people said the same about Quebec in the 1990s but despite 49% of Quebec voters voting for independence from Canada in the 1995 referendum, devomax for the Quebec Parliament has resolved the issue
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    C'est la democracy.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:



    There are plenty of Cockneys in Epping Forest now, though more in Waltham Abbey and Loughton and the less well off bits of Chigwell than Epping

    Quite - I have heard a little of the cockney patter down Epping High Street in my time but I've never associated it with Theydon Bois for example.
    Theydon Bois, Theydon Bois,
    Lace up boots and corduroys
    Theydon Bois, Theydon Bois,
    They call us the Cockney cowboys
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2020
    fox327 said:

    I watched a presentation by Professor David Robertson, University of Glasgow here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CT9N89L-c&feature=youtu.be

    at 2:24:40. It does seem that COVID-19 has the tendency to accumulate mutations (this is normal in evolution and viruses can evolve much faster than elephants, say).

    It seems to me (science background but not a biologist) that humanity can only defeat a virus with vaccines if the vaccines can be rolled out and updated faster than the virus can evolve. We will probably push the virus back in 2021 initially with vaccination, but this could be stalled or go into reverse if the virus evolves further. I do not think the UK economy can last through the whole of 2021 in Tier 4 without serious damage which would affect the NHS.

    To defeat an evolving virus the world would ideally have the capacity to modify an existing vaccine and manufacture and deliver enough doses for everyone in the world in two or three months. If it is slower than this the virus could just evolve again making previous vaccines ineffective.

    This will require a ten-fold increase in vaccine manufacturing capacity. Licencing and testing regimes will have to adapt to live with this. Finally, vaccination will have to be compulsory for everyone who is breathing and who does not have a medical or other exemption.

    People may have to be called in to be revaccinated once or twice a year against the latest mutation. If you have a Windows computer you must update the operating system regularly to protect against viruses, and this is often done automatically. Eventually the fight against COVID 19 may have to be done in a similar way.

    There seems to be very little, or no, concrete information as yet, though, on whether the new strain responds substantially differently to the existing vaccines, or indeed whether it's more or less dangerous, or the same danger level, rather than just being more transmissible. We still in the dark in so many crucial areas.
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    I get that.

    Which makes a deal less valuable doesn't it?

    Absolutely. Whatever happens, our businesses will be far less free to do the business they want to do, while the cost of doing business in our single biggest export market will be much higher.

    Indeed. That is why I nearly voted to Remain.

    But that argument lost the referendum and two subsequent General Elections. Time to move on now.
    The last GE was won on the lie of an 'oven-ready deal' though wasn't it?
    That deal was implemented in January.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Yet you don't mention all the red tape that goes with trading in that free market nor do you talk about vaccine procurement - can't think why......
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    HYUFD said:

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    He also makes this point.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010728392794116?s=20

    However people said the same about Quebec in the 1990s but despite 49% of Quebec voters voting for independence from Canada in the 1995 referendum, devomax for the Quebec Parliament has resolved the issue
    Not with tanks and troops, did you notice?
  • malcolmg said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid

    Contrary to some on here, I entirely agree with you.

    Boris Johnson has made his position on Scottish Independence completely clear and the position is as you describe it until either he changes his position or he is no longer Prime Minister.

    Should there be a majority in the Commons after the next election for a second referendum, so be it. The Conservatives would presumably vote against any legislation empowering such a referendum but if they don't have the votes, that's democracy.

    The question I would pose is this - IF, in a future referendum, Scotland voted for independence but the process had not been completed before the next Westminster GE, do you think the Conservatives should campaign on a pledge to cancel the referendum result if they win a majority or do you think the Conservatives should respect the result of the referendum and work for a constructive separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

    It is F all to do with them and they can vote on what they want. It is for the people of Scotland to decide, we are not prisoners. At least arseholes like you and HYFUD show your contempt openly and don't try to pretend it is a union rather than a colonial hostage situation.
    If Westminster Parliament denies you a referendum then you are prisoners.

    In which case you can and should continue to do whatever is necessary to break out of that prison. That is what he seems to want to encourage.

    If Scots can't leave the UK via ballots should they turn to bullets? What a horrifying concept. Democracy is the way we resolve our concerns for a reason.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    He also makes this point.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010728392794116?s=20

    However people said the same about Quebec in the 1990s but despite 49% of Quebec voters voting for independence from Canada in the 1995 referendum, devomax for the Quebec Parliament has resolved the issue
    Not with tanks and troops, did you notice?
    And by respecting the Quebecois right to have a second referendum when they unilaterally chose to do so, at a time of their unilateral choosing. Did he notice that?
  • I hope that the efforts to develop treatments to combat the effects of the virus are continuing full pelt. Vaccines may be thwarted by virus evolution and so being pessimistic it may be a more drawn out battle with phases and generations of vaccines. If the mortality rate is driven down further we can return to semi-normal (some distancing, face masks etc.) even if infections wax and wane.
  • Aside from your unrelenting insistence in comparing an ex colonial province to a sovereign state that 'voluntarily' went into union with another sovereign state, what were the polling figures for indy among the young Quebecois six years after the '95 referendum, and when is Devo Max going to be enacted in Scotland?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    fox327 said:

    I watched a presentation by Professor David Robertson, University of Glasgow here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CT9N89L-c&feature=youtu.be

    at 2:24:40. It does seem that COVID-19 has the tendency to accumulate mutations (this is normal in evolution and viruses can evolve much faster than elephants, say).

    It seems to me (science background but not a biologist) that humanity can only defeat a virus with vaccines if the vaccines can be rolled out and updated faster than the virus can evolve. We will probably push the virus back in 2021 initially with vaccination, but this could be stalled or go into reverse if the virus evolves further. I do not think the UK economy can last through the whole of 2021 in Tier 4 without serious damage which would affect the NHS.

    To defeat an evolving virus the world would ideally have the capacity to modify an existing vaccine and manufacture and deliver enough doses for everyone in the world in two or three months. If it is slower than this the virus could just evolve again making previous vaccines ineffective.

    This will require a ten-fold increase in vaccine manufacturing capacity. Licencing and testing regimes will have to adapt to live with this. Finally, vaccination will have to be compulsory for everyone who is breathing and who does not have a medical or other exemption.

    People may have to be called in to be revaccinated once or twice a year against the latest mutation. If you have a Windows computer you must update the operating system regularly to protect against viruses, and this is often done automatically. Eventually the fight against COVID 19 may have to be done in a similar way.

    First, that's making a large assumption about Covid. The existing vaccines almost all target the spike protein - and get the immune system to produce many different antibodies against it. The likelihood is that they will remain effective against this and other mutations (though for now, that's not a certainty).
    We certainly have the capacity to produce new vaccines (especially the mRNA ones) very quickly indeed. It's an interesting question as to how fast we might shorten the clinical trials process if what you surmise were ever to come about.

    Coronaviruses do not mutate anywhere near as quickly as flu (for example), so the likelihood of having to be vaccinated more often than the annual flu jab is very low.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    edited December 2020
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    He also makes this point.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010728392794116?s=20

    However people said the same about Quebec in the 1990s but despite 49% of Quebec voters voting for independence from Canada in the 1995 referendum, devomax for the Quebec Parliament has resolved the issue
    Not with tanks and troops, did you notice?
    I don't want to encourage HYFUD but they did bring in troops during the October Crisis in 1970 and activated the War Measures Act.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,410
    Floater said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Yet you don't mention all the red tape that goes with trading in that free market nor do you talk about vaccine procurement - can't think why......
    Compared with the red tape incurred from traiding outside the free market?

    As for vaccine procurement, we could have done this ourselves whilst in the EU
  • Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited December 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid

    Contrary to some on here, I entirely agree with you.

    Boris Johnson has made his position on Scottish Independence completely clear and the position is as you describe it until either he changes his position or he is no longer Prime Minister.

    Should there be a majority in the Commons after the next election for a second referendum, so be it. The Conservatives would presumably vote against any legislation empowering such a referendum but if they don't have the votes, that's democracy.

    The question I would pose is this - IF, in a future referendum, Scotland voted for independence but the process had not been completed before the next Westminster GE, do you think the Conservatives should campaign on a pledge to cancel the referendum result if they win a majority or do you think the Conservatives should respect the result of the referendum and work for a constructive separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

    The Tories should oppose independence and any referendum they have not agreed to hold until separation was achieved.

    If however Starmer became PM after 2024 and Labour granted a legal indyref2 and Scots voted for independence despite a devomax offer from Starmer and the Tories returned to power straight after as Starmer was reliant on SNP MPs to stay in power and once they left the Commons he had to resign, then the Tories would have to be as tough as possible in the trade negotiations for any trade deal with the Scottish government. The new Tory government would have to ensure that the needs of the remainder of the UK and particularly England were put first after Scotland had left the Union, much as the EU is doing with the UK now.

    Of course if an independent Scotland rejoined the EU it would trade with England and the rUK on WTO terms or the terms of any basic trade deal the EU had agreed with the rUK

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,457
    edited December 2020

    I hope that the efforts to develop treatments to combat the effects of the virus are continuing full pelt. Vaccines may be thwarted by virus evolution and so being pessimistic it may be a more drawn out battle with phases and generations of vaccines. If the mortality rate is driven down further we can return to semi-normal (some distancing, face masks etc.) even if infections wax and wane.

    The last "update" I watched from a front line medic in the UK, they basically said other than the steroid, all the other fancy new stuff that people had hoped might be effective* have been a bust. It is basically dexamethasone and that is about it.

    * I don't think they were including Trump's special treatment in that.
  • This is indeed truly amazing, assuming it's true (and Bellingcat has a good record). And grimly funny:

    https://twitter.com/hopisen/status/1341012549341487104
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

  • HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid

    Contrary to some on here, I entirely agree with you.

    Boris Johnson has made his position on Scottish Independence completely clear and the position is as you describe it until either he changes his position or he is no longer Prime Minister.

    Should there be a majority in the Commons after the next election for a second referendum, so be it. The Conservatives would presumably vote against any legislation empowering such a referendum but if they don't have the votes, that's democracy.

    The question I would pose is this - IF, in a future referendum, Scotland voted for independence but the process had not been completed before the next Westminster GE, do you think the Conservatives should campaign on a pledge to cancel the referendum result if they win a majority or do you think the Conservatives should respect the result of the referendum and work for a constructive separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

    The Tories should oppose independence and any referendum they have not agreed to hold until separation was achieved.

    If however Starmer became PM after 2024 and Labour granted a legal indyref2 and Scots voted for independence despite a devomax offer from Starmer and the Tories returned to power straight after as Starmer was reliant on SNP MPs to stay in power and once they left the Commons he had to resign, then the Tories would have to be as tough as possible in the trade negotiations for any trade deal with the Scottish government. The new Tory government would have to ensure that the needs of the remainder of the UK and particularly England were put first after Scotland had left the Union, much as the EU is doing with the UK now.

    Of course if an independent Scotland rejoined the EU it would trade with England and the rUK on WTO terms or the terms of any basic trade deal the EU had agreed with the rUK

    If democracy can't work through the ballot box would you prefer bombs and bullets instead?
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    He also makes this point.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010728392794116?s=20

    However people said the same about Quebec in the 1990s but despite 49% of Quebec voters voting for independence from Canada in the 1995 referendum, devomax for the Quebec Parliament has resolved the issue
    Not with tanks and troops, did you notice?
    I don't want to encourage HYFUD but they did bring in troops during the October Crisis in 1970 and activated the War Measures Act.
    You've just given someone the repression horn, or should that be truncheon?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Floater said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Yet you don't mention all the red tape that goes with trading in that free market nor do you talk about vaccine procurement - can't think why......
    Compared with the red tape incurred from traiding outside the free market?

    As for vaccine procurement, we could have done this ourselves whilst in the EU
    I'm not sure what would have happened had we been in the EU wrt vaccines. Germany and other countries now believe they would have been better off going it alone because the EU commission has bungled it so badly. I'm not sure we'd have had much choice but to participate, saying no as we're leaving is a nothing thing to do, saying no to it while being in and then being the first country to approve it and the nation's with the best deliveries in the whole EU would have led to seriously difficult conversations within the EU over UK procurement competing with the EU scheme.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    I remember the criticism that we got for approving it 3 weeks ago.
  • Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,893

    I hope that the efforts to develop treatments to combat the effects of the virus are continuing full pelt. Vaccines may be thwarted by virus evolution and so being pessimistic it may be a more drawn out battle with phases and generations of vaccines. If the mortality rate is driven down further we can return to semi-normal (some distancing, face masks etc.) even if infections wax and wane.

    The last "update" I watched from a front line medic in the UK, they basically said other than the steroid, all the other fancy new stuff that people had hoped might be effective* have been a bust. It is basically dexamethasone and that is about it.

    * I don't think they were including Trump's special treatment in that.
    The plasma idea looks to be a terrible one for society - medical thread on twitter reckons it can accelerate mutations.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Pulpstar said:
    He was planning to fly on five separate flights at the same time.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This summary of why many in the UK dislike Trump so much is spot on imo:

    https://londondaily.com/british-writer-pens-the-best-description-of-trump-i-ve-read
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

    Surely it's the reverse. You have experience in one tiny part of it that might be badly effected by business visas (but probably won't) so you think the whole sector is in trouble. It isn't.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    edited December 2020

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    Xx
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In one of my occasional attempts to give Unionists unsolicited helpful advice on how to save their Union, this short thread unemotionally puts a finger on an (I feel) under discussed aspect of the constitutional debate. Despite the evidence on PB, I certainly don't believe that people's political views are fixed permanently early on, but I think the points about what is socialised/normalised are important.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010031043604482?s=20

    He also makes this point.

    https://twitter.com/HzBrandenburg/status/1341010728392794116?s=20

    However people said the same about Quebec in the 1990s but despite 49% of Quebec voters voting for independence from Canada in the 1995 referendum, devomax for the Quebec Parliament has resolved the issue
    Not with tanks and troops, did you notice?
    I don't want to encourage HYFUD but they did bring in troops during the October Crisis in 1970 and activated the War Measures Act.
    You've just given someone the repression horn, or should that be truncheon?
    A flint one perhaps
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

    Surely it's the reverse. You have experience in one tiny part of it that might be badly effected by business visas (but probably won't) so you think the whole sector is in trouble. It isn't.

    Nope - we'll be fine. We will just open an office in the single market and staff it with locals. Not a problem for us, just less income for the UK government and fewer opportunities for UK citizens based in the UK. Many other businesses will be doing the same - if they haven't already.

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2020

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

    Surely it's the reverse. You have experience in one tiny part of it that might be badly effected by business visas (but probably won't) so you think the whole sector is in trouble. It isn't.

    Nope - we'll be fine. We will just open an office in the single market and staff it with locals. Not a problem for us, just less income for the UK government and fewer opportunities for UK citizens based in the UK. Many other businesses will be doing the same - if they haven't already.

    So what's the problem? People do that then life goes on.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    One of these days we will be able to estimate how many lives the EU's lethargy and incompetence have cost.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586

    I remember the criticism that we got for approving it 3 weeks ago.
    From whom?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

    Surely it's the reverse. You have experience in one tiny part of it that might be badly effected by business visas (but probably won't) so you think the whole sector is in trouble. It isn't.

    Nope - we'll be fine. We will just open an office in the single market and staff it with locals. Not a problem for us, just less income for the UK government and fewer opportunities for UK citizens based in the UK. Many other businesses will be doing the same - if they haven't already.

    Loads of banks and other industries said this and then realised that the staff and expertise is here, not there. I fear you are oversimplifying it because it suits whatever political point you're trying to make.
  • Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    I've just had to Google 'MLE' innit.

    Every day is a school day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,893
    Fishing said:

    One of these days we will be able to estimate how many lives the EU's lethargy and incompetence have cost.
    How is the UK at 350k if England is only at 108k and so on ?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2020

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
    Truly shocking and an appalling turn of events.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    One of these days we will be able to estimate how many lives the EU's lethargy and incompetence have cost.
    How is the UK at 350k if England is only at 108k and so on ?
    Look at the dates. The national data is newer.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Surely they were both simultaneously?

    Reminers warned about it. Leavers called it "Project Fear". But the public voted for it. They voted to take the chance that the Leavers were right and it was Project Fear - and they voted to take the chance that the Remainers were right and it happens.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    That tweet does sound like it's fish and French though..
  • Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
    Truly shocking, an appalling turn of events.
    Why?

    I doubt stodge, stocky or even HYUFD himself would be shocked.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    This is indeed truly amazing, assuming it's true (and Bellingcat has a good record). And grimly funny:

    https://twitter.com/hopisen/status/1341012549341487104

    That is rather remarkable. And on the face of it convincing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
    If he canvassed you he would tell you to vote Liberal Democrat.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

    Surely it's the reverse. You have experience in one tiny part of it that might be badly effected by business visas (but probably won't) so you think the whole sector is in trouble. It isn't.

    Nope - we'll be fine. We will just open an office in the single market and staff it with locals. Not a problem for us, just less income for the UK government and fewer opportunities for UK citizens based in the UK. Many other businesses will be doing the same - if they haven't already.

    Loads of banks and other industries said this and then realised that the staff and expertise is here, not there. I fear you are oversimplifying it because it suits whatever political point you're trying to make.

    There is more to services than banks. Most banks and other financial institutions already have EU offices, of course. I am not making a political point, I am making a business one.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited December 2020

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
    Given you did not even vote Tory in 1997 or 2001 but for New Labour and as a No Deal hardliner voted for the Brexit Party last May that would not surprise me or bother me one bit
  • That tweet does sound like it's fish and French though..
    "It isn't the French it is the Elysee" is one of the oddest arguments in this long process.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    He still hasn't said whether he thought it was wrong to give the Indians independence.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    One of these days we will be able to estimate how many lives the EU's lethargy and incompetence have cost.
    How is the UK at 350k if England is only at 108k and so on ?
    Different dates.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

    Not really, there's not a lot of governance on services and no tariffs.

    There is a lot of governance on work visas.

    At a national level.

    Indeed - UK services companies will be facing a lot more red tape, at the very least, when they operate inside the single market from now on.

    C'est la vie.

    C'est la reduced competitiveness and fewer opportunities.

    For what amounts to a tiny, tiny issue and assuming that business travel visas are going to be difficult to come by. I've never experienced that for either the US or Japan and none of my US or Japanese colleagues ever experienced any issues here despite neither country having trade deals with the EU let alone being in the single market. You're once again making something out of nothing because you can't think of anything else.

    I am afraid that your personal experience of a very specific part of the market does not equate to a blanket summation of how the UK services sector will fare once the transition comes to an end.

    Surely it's the reverse. You have experience in one tiny part of it that might be badly effected by business visas (but probably won't) so you think the whole sector is in trouble. It isn't.

    Nope - we'll be fine. We will just open an office in the single market and staff it with locals. Not a problem for us, just less income for the UK government and fewer opportunities for UK citizens based in the UK. Many other businesses will be doing the same - if they haven't already.

    So what's the problem? People do that then life goes on.

    The problem is that jobs that would have been created in the UK and revenues that would have fallen to the UK exchequer will now go elsewhere.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
    He does exemplify a lot that is wrong with our politics nowadays, being obsessed with the smaller picture, focused almost entirely on party advantage rather than the public interest, with questionable integrity and honesty, and who places twisting the evidence to win a point well ahead of applying himself to better understanding the world.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This summary of why many in the UK dislike Trump so much is spot on imo:

    https://londondaily.com/british-writer-pens-the-best-description-of-trump-i-ve-read
    A terrific piece. It nails the horror of the man.

    I'm cancelling Donald Trump now and moving on - for quality of life reasons - but it was great to read that before I totally do.

    Cheers for posting.
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    US democratic values really are in a bit of a crisis.

    https://twitter.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/status/1340997654470385667

    She isn't just a random internet nutter. She was an official Republican candidate for the Senate!
    This is the real danger, with the future of the Republican Party under a more plausible Trump.
    It is scary.

    Like if HYUFD were running for Parliament.
    I like to think HYUFD wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully it would just be the christian soldiers and womens' institute of Epping, rather than combined land, sea and air forces.
    If HYUFD was my local candidate I'd be sorely tempted to vote Liberal Democrat.
    Given you did not even vote Tory in 1997 or 2001 but for New Labour and as a No Deal hardliner voted for the Brexit Party last May that would not bother me one bit
    I didn't vote Tory in 1997 as I was 14 then. Do you hold that against everyone?

    Remind me which of the 2001 General or 2019 EP elections you won? 🤔
This discussion has been closed.