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Cockney Covid: is it already everywhere? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited December 2020 in General
imageCockney Covid: is it already everywhere? – politicalbetting.com

The gods have clearly decided that they’ve not done enough to us yet this year? Christmas? Pah. You develop a vaccine? Here’s a boosted version of the virus – which mutated in the same country that was the first to deploy a vaccine. Coincidence? Well, maybe.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Is it too late to give the priest his daughter back?
  • Crikey, scary numbers in Lewisham. Certainly seems to have been a surge locally, a friend and neighbour now has it and my daughter has been told to self isolate until the 25th having been in close contact with a positive case at school. Luckily we had no plans for Christmas anyway.
  • tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    If you live south of the Watford Gap you're all Cockney Sparrows and Soft Arse Southerners to the desolate North.

    But given the epicentre is in Kent and Nigel Farage has been gallivanting all over the world are we sure he's not patient zero/the super spreader for the Cockney Covid?
  • Stocky said:

    No Deal will not be Labour's responsibility, it will be entirely on the Tories. They got the majority, they got the Government. Their problem now

    Why did you say Starmer has made a mistake earlier then?
    Because I personally think Brexit transition should be extended, I can see the logic of their position but I can't support it.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570
    Surely this is Commuter Covid?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone who denies the right of self determination to the Scots is an enemy of democracy and democracy is more important than party politics or the future of the union.

    So Philip has now confirmed he is closer to the SNP not only than the Tories but now Labour too, and has no respect for the vote of 55% of Scots to stay in the UK just 6 years ago.

    I am sure TUD can arrange to get you your SNP membership card while you continue to be perfectly happy to deny the majority of UK voters who oppose No Deal a say in your Zeal for WTO terms!
    I respect the will of the Scottish voters in 2021.

    It is their choice. Not yours. Not 2014s. 2021 trumps 2014.
    I find myself agreeing with you and at least you are being consistent (cf. your remarks on Northern Ireland) unlike HYUFD who simply bends everything he can to backup his view. The result in HYUFD's case is breathtaking inconsistency.
    Thank you.

    For me democracy is the most important principle we have.

    More important than left or right.
    More important than leave or remain.
    More important than success or failure.
    More important than boom or bust.
    More important than war or peace.

    If we lose democracy we lose the ability to change course. Nothing is more important than that.
    No it isn't, otherwise you would not be trying to impose a No Deal Brexit when not a single poll shows a majority of UK voters want one and when the winning 2019 Tory manifesto promised a basic trade deal with the EU
    Spot on Sir.
  • Anyone pretending the Tories offered No Deal in 2019 is lying. End of story.
  • R4 - U.K. should go Tier 4 now because this strain is so contagious - Prof Andrew Hayward
  • Anyone pretending the Tories offered No Deal in 2019 is lying. End of story.

    The Tories promised to take back full control of our laws, money, fish, courts etc etc etc

    If there's no deal where that is possible then so be it. It takes two to tango. We can't force a deal on the EU if they won't accept our terms.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited December 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    Arguably more Cockneys and Cockney descendants now live in East Kent and the Medway Towns and South Essex than live in the East End of London
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,340

    R4 - U.K. should go Tier 4 now because this strain is so contagious - Prof Andrew Hayward

    Can't help but very reluctantly agree with him. The cases across the North are a worry. We were falling. But then I've witnessed the Christmas shopping orgy.
    We really need to be considering What we do about schools too as an urgent priority.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    So by the time Bozo has got round to convening a COBRA meeting France has already got the freight problem sorted.

    Wor Lass suggested he might have been too busy taking care of Baby Bozo this morning.
  • Fingers crossed that the end of the school term last week helps to counter the spread of the new bug.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    "In times past, such a crisis would call for a show of penitence and prayer before a loving God; or before that, an act of sacrifice to appease the more capricious Olympians or their counterparts."

    It is time to propitiate the dark Gods of Unreason.

    Time to bring forth the Fatted Johnson and put him atop the burning Wicker Pyre.
  • Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,419
    Scott_xP said:
    This doesn’t make sense. The EP has said they will not ratify any deal before the end of the year.

    Assuming they’re not fibbing, it’s either provisional application or no deal. So what’s the game here?
  • Scott_xP said:

    This doesn’t make sense. The EP has said they will not ratify any deal before the end of the year.

    Assuming they’re not fibbing, it’s either provisional application or no deal. So what’s the game here?

    BoZo is a fucking idiot.
    Keep going Scott, you're pissing off all the right people today
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Case rates in Essex commuterland and South Wales valleys are horrendous. Well north of 1000 per 100 000 per week.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Don't know if this has been posted already ?

    The NERVTAG report:
    https://khub.net/documents/135939561/338928724/SARS-CoV-2+variant+under+investigation,+meeting+minutes.pdf/962e866b-161f-2fd5-1030-32b6ab467896?t=1608470511452
    ...Four analytic approaches were reviewed regarding the transmissibility of VUI-202012/01
    o Growth rate from genomic data: which suggest a growth rate of VUI-202012/01 that is 71% (95%CI: 67%-75%) higher than other variants.
    o Studies of correlation between R-values and detection of the variant: which suggest an absolute increase in the R-value of between 0.39 to 0.93.
    o PCR ct values: which suggest a decrease of ct value of around 2 associated with the new variant.
    o Viral load inferred from number of unique genome reads: which suggests 0.5 increase in median log10 inferred viral load in Y501 versus N501.
    • It was noted that variations in observed ct values can change with epidemiology since the stage of illness at which infection is detected can vary with incidence of cases, awareness of transmission, and the availability of tests.
    • It was noted that VUI-202012/01 can be challenging to sequence so estimates of frequency of this variant may be underestimates.
    • It was noted that whilst previous variants have successfully emerged in periods of low prevalence without clear evidence of having a selective advantage, the emergence and subsequent dominance of VUI-202012/01 in a period of relatively high prevalence suggests VUI-202012/01 does have a selective advantage over other variants.
    • It was noted that VUI-202012/01 has demonstrated exponential growth during a period when national lockdown measures were in place.
    • In summary, NERVTAG has moderate confidence that VUI-202012/01 demonstrates a substantial increase in transmissibility compared to other variants...
  • Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
  • Scott_xP said:
    This doesn’t make sense. The EP has said they will not ratify any deal before the end of the year.

    Assuming they’re not fibbing, it’s either provisional application or no deal. So what’s the game here?
    It makes perfect sense. Calling the EPs bluff.

    It's all a part of negotiations.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited December 2020

    "In times past, such a crisis would call for a show of penitence and prayer before a loving God; or before that, an act of sacrifice to appease the more capricious Olympians or their counterparts."

    It is time to propitiate the dark Gods of Unreason.

    Time to bring forth the Fatted Johnson and put him atop the burning Wicker Pyre.

    Didn’t take long for the Welsh to resort to type.
  • Somebody should perhaps point out to the PM that his job is to decide what he's going to do.

    It's no good being firm on things you aren't doing.

    Only this morning I resolved to absolutely not slay any dragons today, and I refused to countenance the possibility of growing a third nipple. Sadly, despite the firmness of my resolutions, they didn't help me get any work done...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,308
    Alistair said:
    Christmas Eve will be the announcement that we’re definitely doing No Deal, and Boxing Day will be the announcement that we’ve agreed an extension.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Afternoon all :)

    I'm not sure there are a great number of cockneys in Epping Forest - @HYUFD would know far better than I. It's an unnecessary term which will no doubt catch on.

    Why we need to label something (and simultaneously demonise it) is a mystery. Human nature I suppose. It's easy to deal with something if you can couch it in hostile or unfamiliar terms.

    That aside, the unpalatable truth is we probably need a March-style lockdown to have any effect on this new strain of the virus. As we've seen (or we are told), that is politically and economically acceptable. I don't consider 75,000 or more deaths acceptable but you only have to read the harrowing accounts of @Cyclefree and others to appreciate how grossly simplistic "health vs wealth" is as well.

    The mental health recovery challenge is as great as the vaccination challenge. It will last a deal longer and require more time and resources but it's no less significant. It's as much about saving the living as the vaccine and it needs that kind of priority but all I hear is how we're going to have vaccinated 10 million people by Easter. Where are the resources for the mental health recovery challenge - who is even thinking about that in Government?

    Instead, we're seeing flailing and flapping like a fish out of water on Brexit - yes, I know. For those who comment on how well it's all going, the truth is we are at this point, not because of "remoaners" or the obstructive nature of the Opposition but because of the internal factionalism of the Conservative Party. Had the Party been united, a Deal could and would have been done swiftly and been through parliament. The problem is the Tories are split from stem to stern over the post-EU future and the struggle which dethroned one Prime Minister cost this country valuable negotiating time.

    It all goes back to the fundamental problem of 2016 - all that united the LEAVE campaign was the desire to leave the EU which, to be fair, was pretty important in the referendum campaign but the problem was, once the battle was won, the contradictions within LEAVE came out into the open. It is those contradictions and the resolution of those within the Conservative Party (mainly) which has got us to this point.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,419
    Again, the EU cannot ratify the deal. So how is this position tenable?

    Unless the Government thinks that the EP can push it through if knelt on?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    The biggest question is whether the new strain is already established in the US. There is documented comment that the US isn’t that good at tracking virus mutations, and having the strain there would explain the explosions in states like California, where mask wearing - despite all the media reporting - is more broadly observed than in the UK (cf. also Sopel’s recent tweet on returning from the US expressing surprise at how more casually the precautions are being observed here).
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,419

    Scott_xP said:
    This doesn’t make sense. The EP has said they will not ratify any deal before the end of the year.

    Assuming they’re not fibbing, it’s either provisional application or no deal. So what’s the game here?
    It makes perfect sense. Calling the EPs bluff.

    It's all a part of negotiations.
    Assuming it is a bluff of course.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited December 2020
    Positivity rates worrying level...

    The percentage of tests being done that produce positive results is also 22.7% in Wales, meaning more than a fifth of people getting tested have the virus.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
  • Anyone pretending the Tories offered No Deal in 2019 is lying. End of story.

    Indeed, BoJo confidently dismissed the possibility.

    The trouble is that the Conservatives made various promises in 2019, some of which contradicted each other (e.g. WA Deal and Union-strengthening) and others weren't theirs to promise (the nature of the long-term trade deal).

    Making foolish promises is a good way to pick up votes, but eventually you have to decide which promises you are going to break.

    Which is roughly where the government is now.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,239
    edited December 2020

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    I think it might be fair to say that the Leave campaign was deliberately obfuscatory about the real choice that was being made by the country in the 2016 referendum. Fudging the reality of Brexit & denying the truth of statements made by the EU has been their modus operandi since day 1.

    Likewise, at the GE Johnson promised everyone at “oven ready deal” that would respect the Conservatives red lines. That no such deal was ever possible was quietly glossed over.

    I’m not sure who I’d choose to /blame/ for this outcome however - a populace who wanted to believe easy lies over hard truths? A press-pack determined to never, ever ask the awkward questions? A self-serving Prime Minister who will do & say whatever it takes in order to get elected? Take your pick...
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,578

    Somebody should perhaps point out to the PM that his job is to decide what he's going to do.

    It's no good being firm on things you aren't doing.

    Only this morning I resolved to absolutely not slay any dragons today, and I refused to countenance the possibility of growing a third nipple. Sadly, despite the firmness of my resolutions, they didn't help me get any work done...

    Boris is firm on the things he isn't going to do... and still ends up doing them.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,946
    tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    MLE is anyway the main lower class accent in those parts these days. It has elbowed Cockney out since urban London has been improved by diversity.

    In any case, it could have been spotted first in Brazil last spring. In which case it's Carioca or Paulista COVID?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/21/supercharged-covid-mutation-spotted-brazil-last-spring/

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Scott_xP said:

    This doesn’t make sense. The EP has said they will not ratify any deal before the end of the year.

    Assuming they’re not fibbing, it’s either provisional application or no deal. So what’s the game here?

    BoZo is a fucking idiot.
    Elect a Clown and act surprised when its a Circus
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,340
    This one goes to 11.
  • Phil said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    I think it might be fair to say that the Leave campaign was deliberately obfuscatory about the real choice that was being made by the country in the 2016 referendum. Fudging the reality of Brexit & denying the truth of statements made by the EU has been their modus operandi since day 1.

    Likewise, at the GE Johnson promised everyone at “oven ready deal” that would respect the Conservatives red lines. That no such deal was ever possible was quietly glossed over.

    I’m not sure who I’d choose to /blame/ for this outcome however - a populace who wanted to believe easy lies over hard truths? A press-pack determined to never, ever ask the awkward questions? A self-serving Prime Minister who will do & say whatever it takes in order to get elected? Take your pick...
    That's democracy for you. The voters made their choice.

    Time for the Government to honour it's red lines in the way it best sees fit. Then no later than 2024 the public can vote to continue down this path or change course. Reversing completely 2016 if that is their choice. No Parliament can bind it's successors.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Alistair said:
    Christmas Eve will be the announcement that we’re definitely doing No Deal, and Boxing Day will be the announcement that we’ve agreed an extension.
    Hers what I know is going to happen.

    The Optimal moment to avoid scrutiny of the deal and get it voted on with insane haste would be to announce/publish this Thursday.

    So this is going to happen.

    Thursday, shortly after noon it is announced and published.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited December 2020
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    I'm not sure there are a great number of cockneys in Epping Forest - @HYUFD would know far better than I. It's an unnecessary term which will no doubt catch on.

    Why we need to label something (and simultaneously demonise it) is a mystery. Human nature I suppose. It's easy to deal with something if you can couch it in hostile or unfamiliar terms.

    That aside, the unpalatable truth is we probably need a March-style lockdown to have any effect on this new strain of the virus. As we've seen (or we are told), that is politically and economically acceptable. I don't consider 75,000 or more deaths acceptable but you only have to read the harrowing accounts of @Cyclefree and others to appreciate how grossly simplistic "health vs wealth" is as well.

    The mental health recovery challenge is as great as the vaccination challenge. It will last a deal longer and require more time and resources but it's no less significant. It's as much about saving the living as the vaccine and it needs that kind of priority but all I hear is how we're going to have vaccinated 10 million people by Easter. Where are the resources for the mental health recovery challenge - who is even thinking about that in Government?

    Instead, we're seeing flailing and flapping like a fish out of water on Brexit - yes, I know. For those who comment on how well it's all going, the truth is we are at this point, not because of "remoaners" or the obstructive nature of the Opposition but because of the internal factionalism of the Conservative Party. Had the Party been united, a Deal could and would have been done swiftly and been through parliament. The problem is the Tories are split from stem to stern over the post-EU future and the struggle which dethroned one Prime Minister cost this country valuable negotiating time.

    It all goes back to the fundamental problem of 2016 - all that united the LEAVE campaign was the desire to leave the EU which, to be fair, was pretty important in the referendum campaign but the problem was, once the battle was won, the contradictions within LEAVE came out into the open. It is those contradictions and the resolution of those within the Conservative Party (mainly) which has got us to this point.

    There are plenty of Cockneys in Epping Forest now, though more in Waltham Abbey and Loughton and the less well off bits of Chigwell than Epping
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    The sort of move we should have brought in, ages ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid
  • "In times past, such a crisis would call for a show of penitence and prayer before a loving God; or before that, an act of sacrifice to appease the more capricious Olympians or their counterparts."

    It is time to propitiate the dark Gods of Unreason.

    Time to bring forth the Fatted Johnson and put him atop the burning Wicker Pyre.

    Surely honour and fealty demand that his entourage accompany him into the inferno (I'll except PNN, the sprog and the dog since it's Christmas)?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited December 2020

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,419
    edited December 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The sort of move we should have brought in, ages ago.
    The likes of Germany closed their borders during first wave. And lots of countries restricted movement to within only your locality. Then it all went bonkers...

    Why the UK never did the same is still unfathomable to this day.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    It's Tier 5 already while the schools are closed. If the numbers don't turn soon after New Year, there isn't much left in the armoury.
  • dixiedean said:

    This one goes to 11.
    Got a few candidates for who I'd like to choke on someone else's vomit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    But look at how people actually voted.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,308
    edited December 2020
    “Israel shuts down its airspace and bans entry of all foreigners, except for exceptional cases and diplomats due to the new covid19 strain. The suspension is valid until 10 days from now - PM Netanyahu’s Spox. Ofir”
  • Or worse, vaccines not effective on mutant covid...
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    Indeed. A referendum to leave the European Union. It's when Brexiteers decided that the EEA and CU were the EU that it started to wobble. The UK in EFTA with a customs deal would have honoured the referendum.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    HYUFD said:



    There are plenty of Cockneys in Epping Forest now, though more in Waltham Abbey and Loughton and the less well off bits of Chigwell than Epping

    Quite - I have heard a little of the cockney patter down Epping High Street in my time but I've never associated it with Theydon Bois for example.
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Here’s what I know has happened.

    There is a mutant strain, i am not a sceptic of this.
    But what ever it brings to the party, winter, Christmas shopping and movement, vigilance fatigue, tiers and 2.0 that kept gyms, shops, pubs, participant and spectator sport open, hawkish scientists and politicians trying to bounce sceptic politicians and scientists, and media ramping all bad news are already at that party.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    Indeed. A referendum to leave the European Union. It's when Brexiteers decided that the EEA and CU were the EU that it started to wobble. The UK in EFTA with a customs deal would have honoured the referendum.
    It could have.

    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the referendum.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2017 election.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2019 election.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,308

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    Indeed. A referendum to leave the European Union. It's when Brexiteers decided that the EEA and CU were the EU that it started to wobble. The UK in EFTA with a customs deal would have honoured the referendum.
    It could have.

    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the referendum.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2017 election.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2019 election.
    A majority of people voted against leaving the single market in both 2017 and 2019.
  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    But look at how people actually voted.
    Yes they voted to give the Tories an 80 seat majority to elect its manifesto of taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources and courts.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    HYUFD said:


    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid

    Contrary to some on here, I entirely agree with you.

    Boris Johnson has made his position on Scottish Independence completely clear and the position is as you describe it until either he changes his position or he is no longer Prime Minister.

    Should there be a majority in the Commons after the next election for a second referendum, so be it. The Conservatives would presumably vote against any legislation empowering such a referendum but if they don't have the votes, that's democracy.

    The question I would pose is this - IF, in a future referendum, Scotland voted for independence but the process had not been completed before the next Westminster GE, do you think the Conservatives should campaign on a pledge to cancel the referendum result if they win a majority or do you think the Conservatives should respect the result of the referendum and work for a constructive separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK?

  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,062

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    But look at how people actually voted.
    Yes they voted to give the Tories an 80 seat majority to elect its manifesto of taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources and courts.
    Well a plurality of those who voted is not a majority. Johnson is in deep deep shit.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    Indeed. A referendum to leave the European Union. It's when Brexiteers decided that the EEA and CU were the EU that it started to wobble. The UK in EFTA with a customs deal would have honoured the referendum.
    It could have.

    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the referendum.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2017 election.
    But it wouldn't have honoured the promises made during the 2019 election.
    A majority of people voted against leaving the single market in both 2017 and 2019.
    We elect our government by FPTP as confirmed by 2/3rds of voters in the last referendum on that.

    80 seat majority for leaving the Single Market.

    If leaving the Single Market goes badly then the public can overturn that in 2024 if they choose to do so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited December 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:



    There are plenty of Cockneys in Epping Forest now, though more in Waltham Abbey and Loughton and the less well off bits of Chigwell than Epping

    Quite - I have heard a little of the cockney patter down Epping High Street in my time but I've never associated it with Theydon Bois for example.
    Theydon Bois is the most expensive part of Epping Forest that is probably why, while also being a village rather than a town like Epping.

    There are still a few East End boys who made a fortune in the City who live in Theydon Bois though as well as David Sullivan, along with Alan Sugar in Chigwell one of the 2 billionaires who live in Epping Forest, Sugar himself being an ex East Ender, though Sullivan comes from south Wales
  • Cicero said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    I agree with all of that. However it has been an endless refrain of Brexity Gammon people that a referendum in the 2015 parliament bound the hands of the 2017 and 2019 parliaments
    If a majority in the 2017 or 2019 Parliament's had been elected on a majority of overturning the 2016 Referendum then that would be democracy.

    But an overwhelming majority were elected in both elections pledged to honouring the referendum instead.

    Democracy.
    But look at how people actually voted.
    Yes they voted to give the Tories an 80 seat majority to elect its manifesto of taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources and courts.
    Well a plurality of those who voted is not a majority. Johnson is in deep deep shit.
    Its an 80 seat majority. Johnson is doing the right thing.
  • HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    I'm not sure there are a great number of cockneys in Epping Forest - @HYUFD would know far better than I. It's an unnecessary term which will no doubt catch on.

    Why we need to label something (and simultaneously demonise it) is a mystery. Human nature I suppose. It's easy to deal with something if you can couch it in hostile or unfamiliar terms.

    That aside, the unpalatable truth is we probably need a March-style lockdown to have any effect on this new strain of the virus. As we've seen (or we are told), that is politically and economically acceptable. I don't consider 75,000 or more deaths acceptable but you only have to read the harrowing accounts of @Cyclefree and others to appreciate how grossly simplistic "health vs wealth" is as well.

    The mental health recovery challenge is as great as the vaccination challenge. It will last a deal longer and require more time and resources but it's no less significant. It's as much about saving the living as the vaccine and it needs that kind of priority but all I hear is how we're going to have vaccinated 10 million people by Easter. Where are the resources for the mental health recovery challenge - who is even thinking about that in Government?

    Instead, we're seeing flailing and flapping like a fish out of water on Brexit - yes, I know. For those who comment on how well it's all going, the truth is we are at this point, not because of "remoaners" or the obstructive nature of the Opposition but because of the internal factionalism of the Conservative Party. Had the Party been united, a Deal could and would have been done swiftly and been through parliament. The problem is the Tories are split from stem to stern over the post-EU future and the struggle which dethroned one Prime Minister cost this country valuable negotiating time.

    It all goes back to the fundamental problem of 2016 - all that united the LEAVE campaign was the desire to leave the EU which, to be fair, was pretty important in the referendum campaign but the problem was, once the battle was won, the contradictions within LEAVE came out into the open. It is those contradictions and the resolution of those within the Conservative Party (mainly) which has got us to this point.

    There are plenty of Cockneys in Epping Forest now, though more in Waltham Abbey and Loughton and the less well off bits of Chigwell than Epping
    Has this chap shown up yet?

    http://viz.co.uk/2015/01/15/cockney-wanker/
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020
    The Tories have 44% of voters, Labour potentially has access to 56% of them if they work intelligently with the other parties.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid
    If you had been around in 1945, would you have told the Indians they couldn't be independent because a bunch of Tory MPs at Westminster said No? It was the British EMPIRE in gold glittering balls, after all, it said so on the thruppeny bits.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited December 2020

    Anyone pretending the Tories offered No Deal in 2019 is lying. End of story.

    Johnson knew a WTO Brexit platform would have made GE19 harder and perhaps impossible for him to win. This is why he magicked up his deal beforehand. To now go for WTO Brexit would be cynical and abusive.

    But my regular reminder - he won't be. It will be deal or fudged extension.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    MLE is anyway the main lower class accent in those parts these days. It has elbowed Cockney out since urban London has been improved by diversity.

    In any case, it could have been spotted first in Brazil last spring. In which case it's Carioca or Paulista COVID?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/21/supercharged-covid-mutation-spotted-brazil-last-spring/

    MLE. A truly hideous accent. Worse than Strine or South African. Makes Americans sound like the Queen

    Happily, MLE seems to be transient. Teenspeak. Aspirational Londoners realise it is a handicap and a problem, and lose it as they mature.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    If you live south of the Watford Gap you're all Cockney Sparrows and Soft Arse Southerners to the desolate North.

    But given the epicentre is in Kent and Nigel Farage has been gallivanting all over the world are we sure he's not patient zero/the super spreader for the Cockney Covid?
    Watford?! Surely Leicester Forest East. Or Shap, if you are a Scot (but that allows the Geordies to be north of that too).
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

  • The Tories have 44% of voters, Labour potentially has access to 56% of them if they work intelligently with the other parties.

    What an original concept counting all people who didn't vote for the Tories in the Labour column. Nobody has suggested that before.

    You may want to realise that non-Tory non-Labour voters are not just not-Tory voters they are not-Labour voters too.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:



    There are plenty of Cockneys in Epping Forest now, though more in Waltham Abbey and Loughton and the less well off bits of Chigwell than Epping

    Quite - I have heard a little of the cockney patter down Epping High Street in my time but I've never associated it with Theydon Bois for example.
    Theydon Bois is the most expensive part of Epping Forest that is probably why, while also being a village rather than town.

    There are still a few East End boys who made a fortune in the City who live in Theydon Bois though as well as David Sullivan, along with Alan Sugar in Chigwell one of the 2 billionaires who live in Epping Forest, Sugar himself being an ex East Ender, though Sullivan comes from south Wales
    Listening to how they pronounce it should tell you what you need to know ;)
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.
  • Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cockney? Since when has Kent been in earshot of Bow Bells?

    MLE is anyway the main lower class accent in those parts these days. It has elbowed Cockney out since urban London has been improved by diversity.

    In any case, it could have been spotted first in Brazil last spring. In which case it's Carioca or Paulista COVID?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/21/supercharged-covid-mutation-spotted-brazil-last-spring/

    MLE. A truly hideous accent. Worse than Strine or South African. Makes Americans sound like the Queen

    Happily, MLE seems to be transient. Teenspeak. Aspirational Londoners realise it is a handicap and a problem, and lose it as they mature.
    Which accent do you pretend to have?
  • IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

  • kinabalu said:

    Anyone pretending the Tories offered No Deal in 2019 is lying. End of story.

    Johnson knew a WTO Brexit platform would have made GE19 harder and perhaps impossible for him to win. This is why he magicked up his deal beforehand. To now go for WTO Brexit would be cynical and abusive.

    But my regular reminder - he won't be. It will be deal or fudged extension.
    Oh wow that changes everything. Nobody could ever accuse Boris of being cynical or abusive. 😂
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,578
    edited December 2020
    Amid all the really very depressing news, a little light relief...

    The Orange Idiot still thinks he won 🤣

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1340996686257254403?s=20
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.
    You live in a dream world, if you think we can defy our geography as easily as that. There’s a reason that English/British foreign policy has for centuries been directed toward ensuring that a dominant power didn’t emerge on the continent. Now that one has, the question is “join ‘em or leave ‘em”, and leaving is simply the wrong answer.
    Of course we can defy our geography like that. Especially since we are a world leader in exporting services that don't require geography. Why do you think that pre-Brexit the EU already forms a minority of our trade? Before we sign new deals with the rest of the world?

    We have no more need to form a political union with our neighbours than Japan or Canada do with theirs.

    It is just a coincidence that our single biggest export market for services is the single market, presumably.

    No. Its a significant bloc on our doorstep. They will continue to be a key market even on WTO terms let alone FTA terms.

    The FTA the UK wants not cover services, Phil. That rules out a lot of services that are currently supplied to the single market from the UK.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited December 2020
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:
    Unionist desperation knows no bounds, tag team of the great clunking duffer and Bozo the Clown, independence will be at short odds for sure.
    Seems you are going to have a longer wait for indy2 with Brown and Starmer teaming up and refusing to support it through the HOC

    You seem to have got over your recent ‘blocking a referendum would be undemocratic’ spasm. Can we now expect you to participate in HYUFD’s baton wielding B Specials for the Union?
    I don't think indyref2 is legally dependent on a House of Commons mandate. If you read the legal arguments for a referendum, regardless of what Westminster thinks, it seems reasonably strong.

    Before anyone jumps in with 'that's what it says in law' I would point you to some of the complex arguments being advanced which may well by-pass Westminster.
    If Westminster refuses one it would have as much effect as the Catalan referendum in defiance of Madrid, ie none
    Spain is used to Franco authoritarianism.

    Britain is a proud centuries old democracy.

    If the mother of all Parliament's turns to Francoism then that would be to betray everything that is Great about Britain.
    Wrong, Spain never even allowed Catalonia one legal independence vote.

    Westminster allowed the Scots one in 2014, they voted 55% to stay in the UK in that 'once in a generation' referendum
    Under British Parliamentary Democracy there is an overriding principle quite rightly that No Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Whatever the Scottish voters elect in 2021 is their choice. Not yours. If that contradicts promises in 2014 so be it. That is why no Parliament can bind it's successors.

    Either you respect democracy or you do not. Democracy is not a once in a generation event.
    The UK constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, nothing more, nothing less.

    Without Westminster approval no decision or referendum is legally valid
    If you had been around in 1945, would you have told the Indians they couldn't be independent because a bunch of Tory MPs at Westminster said No? It was the British EMPIRE in gold glittering balls, after all, it said so on the thruppeny bits.
    Well Churchill did not agree to Indian independence no, it was only with the consent of the Attlee Labour government that had defeated Churchill's Tories in the 1945 general election that India was able to become independent
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited December 2020

    The Tories have 44% of voters, Labour potentially has access to 56% of them if they work intelligently with the other parties.

    What an original concept counting all people who didn't vote for the Tories in the Labour column. Nobody has suggested that before.

    You may want to realise that non-Tory non-Labour voters are not just not-Tory voters they are not-Labour voters too.
    Oh don't be so rotten to the poor fellow. Here on PB everyone knows DKs vote Tory (or Unionist in Scotland, same thing). It's an absolute axiom of psephology. This is a most refreshing change we are being presented with.
  • IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

    He doesn't do any work by the amount of time he spends on here, I suspect he's just playing a character
  • IanB2 said:

    Certain people only like democracy when it goes their way.

    You cannot coherently argue for No Deal from a democratic POV and then claim the Scots can get Independence Vote if they vote that way in 2021.

    It's either both or neither.

    I know the muppets in question know it doesn't make sense - and hence why like Sean, they're just here playing characters.

    Why not?

    The Tory manifesto made clear what our red lines were. Taking back control of our laws, money, borders, natural resources (eg fish) and courts.

    If the EU can't or won't agree a deal respecting those red lines then so be it.
    It is sad that Tories fail to see that absolute “control” is going to prove a mirage, if our future is to be a marginalised island on the fringes of a powerful European trading bloc. A position we haven’t been in since the reign of one of the Henries.

    It’s a shame you are so wound up about the EU. But not for that, you would have made a fine liberal troll, rather than the Brexit troll you have become.
    The EU isn't powerful. It's a tiny 6% of the globe.

    We aren't 1/27th of the EU. We are 1/5th of it.

    There's a big wide world out there. Don't be so afraid of leaving the EU.

    Out of interest, Phil, are you currently on furlough?

    Affected by Tier 3.
  • Amid all the really very depressing news, a little light relief...

    The Orange Idiot still thinks he won 🤣

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1340996686257254403?s=20

    It's not light relief, this is getting rather scary.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1340915047225319424
This discussion has been closed.