Didn't this vaccine story come up earlier, in that it seems like it would, at worst, take a single plan a week?
I presume you meant “plane”; we do at least have one of those already.
It’s being produced in batches, and needs special temperature control to transport it. Bunging the whole lot inside a military transport plane isn’t going to cut the ice, assuming there is any.
I'd always assumed it would come by plane. Much less chance of anything going wrong. Remember that this is being carried in special boxes with dry ice, so no actual refrigeration is required. You might keep the box in a freezer to lower the heat transfer rate but I'd be surprised if there are lorries operating at -70C. Speed is the thing.
I saw the A400M practising landings into Doncaster (Finningley) airport last week (and then Norwich, via Flight Radar). The same plane flew PPE in to Finningley (there's an NHS distribution centre near the M62).
My understanding is that the vaccine in question is sensitive to motion in addition to the temperature issues.
So a flight is better in terms of time, and the jolting around.
In the US, at least, there was some special testing/certification to allow a larger quantity of dry ice onto a given flight (so that they can get more of the vaccine on a given flight).
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
On topic I'd be on the other side of this bet if it were available. I would also back Trump to play golf on inauguration day at anywhere north of 10/1.
Regarding Millwall, the footballers were entitled to make the gesture of taking the knee at the beginning of their match, and the fans were entitled to demonstrate their disapprobation about it. Neither is hateful or hurtful.
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
Terrible. And by no means all unavoidable. Has such a massive crisis ever met with a leader so ill equipped to deal with it?
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
It will. There's a strong consensus of 330,000 by Christmas.
Test and trace starting to work? Lateral flow testing finding more cases against a falling number?
Anybody seen information on how the lateral flow tests are being handled? Do they go directly into the numbers, or are positive tests followed up with PCR tests that then go into the numbers? The former would decrease the positivity rate, whereas the latter would increase it.
From the gov website:
Daily and cumulative numbers of cases
Number of people with a positive COVID-19 virus test (either lab-reported or lateral flow device) on or up to the specimen date or reporting date (depending on availability).
Thanks. Looking at the testing page, I'm getting a bit confused. Lateral flow tests are not the same as the antibody tests separated out there, right?
For December 3, I see 389k tests overall, 354k PCR tests and around 4k antibody tests, which I guess leaves 31k lateral flow tests? Probably not enough yet to have much impact on the case numbers, especially as they should have lower positivity than the people tested due to symptoms in the PCR tests.
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
It will. There's a strong consensus of 330,000 by Christmas.
330k by Christmas seems quite plausible.
But from there about 500k tops I can see happening realistically. From late January America will have a sane POTUS and a vaccine rollout so I don't foresee 2021 being as deadly as 2020.
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
Has anything been said about the plans for delivering the vaccine in the US? Will people need to pay for it at the point of delivery?
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
Let's translate this: it means the EU get to catch 50%+ of fish in British waters as opposed to 90%+ they do now.
I've said (for weeks) the zone for a deal is in the 30-40% range.
Here's why: it quadruples the British catch, so allowing the UK to say it "won" as the EU position was originally status quo, it allows the EU to say it "won" as it still has more than half of the fish and it allows Macron to say he "won" as his carefully choreographed strop will have downsized the ratio (from 50% to 40%) and increased the transition duration (from 3-5 years by threatening 10 years).
Now, depending on your views on Brexit you will tend to highlight one of these and ignore the rest. Scott, for example, will highlight the EU victory and say it's a capitulation.
In truth both sides have moved (the EU more on fish) and it's been a hard fought negotiation.
Regarding Millwall, the footballers were entitled to make the gesture of taking the knee at the beginning of their match, and the fans were entitled to demonstrate their disapprobation about it. Neither is hateful or hurtful.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Regarding Millwall, the footballers were entitled to make the gesture of taking the knee at the beginning of their match, and the fans were entitled to demonstrate their disapprobation about it. Neither is hateful or hurtful.
You've never met Millwall fans have you?
They have a long history of racism, bigotry, and violence.
It's possible HMG are denying because they're using it as leverage on LPF and regression and still haven't closed those bits yet - so it's provisional.
It's possible HMG are denying because they're using it as leverage on LPF and regression and still haven't closed those bits yet - so it's provisional.
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
Has anything been said about the plans for delivering the vaccine in the US? Will people need to pay for it at the point of delivery?
It will be free, for the 50 something percent who are going to accept it. Anti vaxxing plus the we definitely won't wear masks/isolate now there's a vaccine school of thought plus time to roll out all drastically reduce the short term value of having a vaccine.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
Example: I'd be happy to agree not to lower the minimum statutory leave for UK full-time workers from 20 days annual leave. Level playing field base. And no-one here really wants to cut it.
But, if the EU increased that in future to, say, 30 days minimum I see no reason why we should be obliged to follow or lose trading privileges.
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
Has anything been said about the plans for delivering the vaccine in the US? Will people need to pay for it at the point of delivery?
It will be free, for the 50 something percent who are going to accept it. Anti vaxxing plus the we definitely won't wear masks/isolate now there's a vaccine school of thought plus time to roll out all drastically reduce the short term value of having a vaccine.
Yikes, that would leave plenty of breeding ground for the virus, particularly as there'd be large regional variations in the take-up, probably roughly in line with the political divide.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
No, both sides compromised, as is normal in negotiations. Quite why the going to seven years from UK's three year and EU's ten year demand is somehow Boris blinking and not the EU is beyond me.
Entirely sane compromise. Nobody sane would object to that.
Choreographed mutual blink. Like I keep trying to tell everyone.
Yeah, this is precisely how negotiations with the EU go when a deadline is involved.
Yep. No Deal = Eat my shorts.
Me, I mean.
I'm curious as to something I think you said yesterday.
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
Possibly a case of "nothing agreed until everything is agreed"?
I've thought of several scenarios in the last few minutes..
One is that the EU is tactically leaking it to calm down the EU fishing states so they can get ready to address the level-playing field issues that are the real blocker for a deal with the UK.
They might use that win as an argument to concede elsewhere tomorrow.
Another is they're trying to generate momentum and put pressure on the UK. Another is that it's true but HMG don't want to admit it as they have the ERG to manage (some of whom will view *any* deal with the EU as a betrayal).
Example: I'd be happy to agree not to lower the minimum statutory leave for UK full-time workers from 20 days annual leave. Level playing field base. And no-one here really wants to cut it.
But, if the EU increased that in future to, say, 30 days minimum I see no reason why we should be obliged to follow or lose trading privileges.
There will be lots of little things like this.
No we shouldn't be tied to anything like that unless they are tied to our minimum wage laws and maternity rights etc...
Example: I'd be happy to agree not to lower the minimum statutory leave for UK full-time workers from 20 days annual leave. Level playing field base. And no-one here really wants to cut it.
But, if the EU increased that in future to, say, 30 days minimum I see no reason why we should be obliged to follow or lose trading privileges.
There will be lots of little things like this.
Especially when we know the EU are planning new regulation on financial services, and that loose lips have in the past proffered the idea that every new piece of EU legislation should have a “Screw the UK Clause” in it.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
It will. There's a strong consensus of 330,000 by Christmas.
If there is going to be a "Thanksgiving Turbocharger" it should be manifesting in the coming weeks figures.
It is the make or break moment for how fucked the USA is.
And this of course puts the UK in contrast because currently the UK has a higher deaths per million than the US.
No, both sides compromised, as is normal in negotiations. Quite why the going to seven years from UK's three year and EU's ten year demand is somehow Boris blinking and not the EU is beyond me.
Entirely sane compromise. Nobody sane would object to that.
Choreographed mutual blink. Like I keep trying to tell everyone.
Yeah, this is precisely how negotiations with the EU go when a deadline is involved.
Yep. No Deal = Eat my shorts.
Me, I mean.
I'm curious as to something I think you said yesterday.
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
'Any questioning of the gender-affirming model – and the role that trauma, internalised hostility to same-sex attraction or misleading online material may play in gender dysphoria in teenagers – is dismissed as transphobic. This is a chilling state of affairs that is detrimental to child safety.'
I'm surprised they would be as bold as that though fair play to them.
Possibly a case of "nothing agreed until everything is agreed"?
I've thought of several scenarios in the last few minutes..
One is that the EU is tactically leaking it to calm down the EU fishing states so they can get ready to address the level-playing field issues that are the real blocker for a deal with the UK.
They might use that win as an argument to concede elsewhere tomorrow.
Another is they're trying to generate momentum and put pressure on the UK. Another is that it's true but HMG don't want to admit it as they have the ERG to manage (some of whom will view *any* deal with the EU as a betrayal).
If the end deal is the UK conceding more on fish and the EU giving in on the LPF/Governance then it would be a very good deal for us. Not sure it's on the table though. I get the feeling France would rather veto and no deal because they have this stupid idea that Paris will become London overnight and that the government won't put in a bunch of defensive regulations and tax rates to keep businesses in the UK.
No, both sides compromised, as is normal in negotiations. Quite why the going to seven years from UK's three year and EU's ten year demand is somehow Boris blinking and not the EU is beyond me.
Entirely sane compromise. Nobody sane would object to that.
Choreographed mutual blink. Like I keep trying to tell everyone.
Yeah, this is precisely how negotiations with the EU go when a deadline is involved.
Yep. No Deal = Eat my shorts.
Me, I mean.
I'm curious as to something I think you said yesterday.
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
While the vast majority will move on with a sigh of relief
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
Possibly a case of "nothing agreed until everything is agreed"?
I've thought of several scenarios in the last few minutes..
One is that the EU is tactically leaking it to calm down the EU fishing states so they can get ready to address the level-playing field issues that are the real blocker for a deal with the UK.
They might use that win as an argument to concede elsewhere tomorrow.
Another is they're trying to generate momentum and put pressure on the UK. Another is that it's true but HMG don't want to admit it as they have the ERG to manage (some of whom will view *any* deal with the EU as a betrayal).
If the end deal is the UK conceding more on fish and the EU giving in on the LPF/Governance then it would be a very good deal for us. Not sure it's on the table though. I get the feeling France would rather veto and no deal because they have this stupid idea that Paris will become London overnight and that the government won't put in a bunch of defensive regulations and tax rates to keep businesses in the UK.
We'll see. The Macron/Johnson relationship is good and we just struck a Deal with them last week on boats so I don't think it's particularly rancourous - yet.
I might buy some more UK equity if it looks positive tomorrow as I think the markets love any deal now.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
As you wish but attacking posters as trolls may be better avoided
Leaked government no deal planning documents says that:
"Police will dedicate "significant amounts" of their time responding to "public disorder and community tensions" as protests break out across the UK, it says..." due to shortages of meds (possibly as high as 60-80% short fall) and fresh food.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
As you wish but attacking posters as trolls may be better avoided
Yes, I'd hate to acquire the opprobrium of the real arbiter.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
Perhaps avoiding going on a tirade against other posters make the experience a more pleasant one for everyone.
No, both sides compromised, as is normal in negotiations. Quite why the going to seven years from UK's three year and EU's ten year demand is somehow Boris blinking and not the EU is beyond me.
Entirely sane compromise. Nobody sane would object to that.
Choreographed mutual blink. Like I keep trying to tell everyone.
Yeah, this is precisely how negotiations with the EU go when a deadline is involved.
Yep. No Deal = Eat my shorts.
Me, I mean.
I'm curious as to something I think you said yesterday.
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
While the vast majority will move on with a sigh of relief
Indeed. The hardcore Remainers (Lib Dems) will say whatever the deal is it is not as good remaining. The hardcore Brexiteers (new Farage party) will say whatever the deal is it is a sell out. Both parties will probably get around 10% next time around. The 80% in the middle will be happy to move on.
The 7 year fishing compromise is interesting as it would be set to coincide with the end of Macron's second term, leaving the next president to deal with the angry fishermen!
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
Perhaps avoiding going on a tirade against other posters make the experience a more pleasant one for everyone.
No, both sides compromised, as is normal in negotiations. Quite why the going to seven years from UK's three year and EU's ten year demand is somehow Boris blinking and not the EU is beyond me.
Entirely sane compromise. Nobody sane would object to that.
Choreographed mutual blink. Like I keep trying to tell everyone.
Yeah, this is precisely how negotiations with the EU go when a deadline is involved.
Yep. No Deal = Eat my shorts.
Me, I mean.
I'm curious as to something I think you said yesterday.
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
While the vast majority will move on with a sigh of relief
Indeed. The hardcore Remainers (Lib Dems) will say whatever the deal is it is not as good remaining. The hardcore Brexiteers (new Farage party) will say whatever the deal is it is a sell out. Both parties will probably get around 10% next time around. The 80% in the middle will be happy to move on.
The 7 year fishing compromise is interesting as it would be set to coincide with the end of Macron's second term, leaving the next president to deal with the angry fishermen!
The French Presidential term is only 5 years these days.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
Perhaps avoiding going on a tirade against other posters make the experience a more pleasant one for everyone.
Another "non-arbiter"?
Post whatever you want, I was just saying what might make the experience a more enjoyable one.
The British demand here for a future review in the event of meaningful divergence and proportionate action accordingly really does look rather modest.
I really would be astonished if that isn't conceded, as opposed to a blind open-book lock in with no limit on penalty - which clearly isn't reasonable:
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
You can guarantee like clockwork those who are apologists for the Prime Minister and his Government will claim it's a triumph and how he has outsmarted the EU no matter what the detail is.
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
Of course. Which is why the UK going from three years to 5-7 was always in line with reasonable expectations for how this would end.
The most important principle, if the reports are true, is that the UK is getting what it asked for while the EU is getting a face saving transition to what we asked for.
Considering our fishermen will need to invest in new infrastructure it makes perfect sense to allow a transition anyway so they can get prepared.
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
Maybe not but at least better than asking for nothing and getting nothing which was the Blair and Cameron approach to EU negotiations.
It may be that in the modern world that negotiating is increasingly difficult with every haggling concession claimed in the media as a 'surrender' or a 'U turn'.
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
Of course. Which is why the UK going from three years to 5-7 was always in line with reasonable expectations for how this would end.
The most important principle, if the reports are true, is that the UK is getting what it asked for while the EU is getting a face saving transition to what we asked for.
Considering our fishermen will need to invest in new infrastructure it makes perfect sense to allow a transition anyway so they can get prepared.
"Which is exactly why there are no US tanks in Baghdad as we speak"
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
It will. There's a strong consensus of 330,000 by Christmas.
If there is going to be a "Thanksgiving Turbocharger" it should be manifesting in the coming weeks figures.
It is the make or break moment for how fucked the USA is.
And this of course puts the UK in contrast because currently the UK has a higher deaths per million than the US.
15 individual states have a higher deaths per million figure than the UK and it sounds as if things are under control and trending downwards here, for the time being. The US sounds out of control.
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
Of course. Which is why the UK going from three years to 5-7 was always in line with reasonable expectations for how this would end.
The most important principle, if the reports are true, is that the UK is getting what it asked for while the EU is getting a face saving transition to what we asked for.
Considering our fishermen will need to invest in new infrastructure it makes perfect sense to allow a transition anyway so they can get prepared.
A triumph for the negotiating tactics of Lord Cummings of Barnard Castle?
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
You can guarantee like clockwork those who are apologists for the Prime Minister and his Government will claim it's a triumph and how he has outsmarted the EU no matter what the detail is.
Not me though. I've criticised the PM and called for u turns many times this year.
I've also said in advance what I would consider a good deal and what I would consider a bad deal.
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
Of course. Which is why the UK going from three years to 5-7 was always in line with reasonable expectations for how this would end.
The most important principle, if the reports are true, is that the UK is getting what it asked for while the EU is getting a face saving transition to what we asked for.
Considering our fishermen will need to invest in new infrastructure it makes perfect sense to allow a transition anyway so they can get prepared.
Bunging the fishermen a few million in tax rebates for new boats etc would allow them to put their own money where their mouths have been.
I've always been suspicious that UK fishermen would be happier to flog any extra fishing quotas than use them themselves.
No, both sides compromised, as is normal in negotiations. Quite why the going to seven years from UK's three year and EU's ten year demand is somehow Boris blinking and not the EU is beyond me.
Entirely sane compromise. Nobody sane would object to that.
Choreographed mutual blink. Like I keep trying to tell everyone.
Yeah, this is precisely how negotiations with the EU go when a deadline is involved.
Yep. No Deal = Eat my shorts.
Me, I mean.
I'm curious as to something I think you said yesterday.
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
Looking for a specific litmus test on "sovereignty". For example, can we slash business tax and regs. Or will the deal be along the lines of future divergence is possible bla bla but details tba. Many years of "status quo". All bollox in other words. FOM ended and that's mostly it. Brexit = Immigration. Not bollox, come to think of it, since in truth that WAS it.
Example: I'd be happy to agree not to lower the minimum statutory leave for UK full-time workers from 20 days annual leave. Level playing field base. And no-one here really wants to cut it.
But, if the EU increased that in future to, say, 30 days minimum I see no reason why we should be obliged to follow or lose trading privileges.
There will be lots of little things like this.
As I understand the EU proposal, the EU could move to 30 days holidays and the UK say to 23 days (or any number as long as it doesn't go backwards from the current 20). Neither side is allowed to change from this (30 days EU, 23 days UK) in order to offer competitive advantage to their businesses, and this would be enforced through arbitration.
I would think it a grey area about what is gaining competitive advantage and what is normal divergence. Having said that, this is absolutely the kind of arbitration that the WTO does. It's not new.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
As you wish but attacking posters as trolls may be better avoided
Yes, I'd hate to acquire the opprobrium of the real arbiter.
Compromise would be a better way to describe it. Alternatively, you could say Johnson and the EU simultaneously blinked.
EU boats get to catch more fish in British waters.
yeah, some compromise from them...
No they don't. Learn the facts before you embarrass yourself.
What was the EUs original demand?
Wasn't the EU's original demand 10 years and the UK's 0?
No. The EU's original demand was no change. 10 years was their latest proposal and a compromise from them.
You can’t judge a negotiation solely using the yardstick of the stated opening position. Your way, every tourist who buys a carpet in a Moroccan market is a negotiating genius.
Maybe not but at least better than asking for nothing and getting nothing which was the Blair and Cameron approach to EU negotiations.
It may be that in the modern world that negotiating is increasingly difficult with every haggling concession claimed in the media as a 'surrender' or a 'U turn'.
Possibly those realistic worst case scenario planning documents were leaked to show the political will is there.
I'm so glad I'm not responsible for negotiations like these.
On fish, the EU wanted 10, the, the UK 3, "splitting the difference" would get you to 6.5 - so I don't know where you get "7" as a great "blink" from
The EU wanted infinity originally. Their original demand was for there to be no change in perpetuity.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
Phullofshit Thompson and the art of straw clutching strikes again: "We'll throw throw EU fishermen out of UK waters" - sometime in the 2020's.
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I am astonished you set yourself up as the arbiter of who posts here
I have no problem with anyone posting on this site - it is not my remit
Cool, is it ok with you if I post from time to time though?
As you wish but attacking posters as trolls may be better avoided
Yes, I'd hate to acquire the opprobrium of the real arbiter.
So the UK leaves fishing rights as they are, gets to re-negotiate trade deals to exactly where they stand now and adds several layers of bureaucracy and cost to trade with UK's the largest single trading partner in perpetuity and all for a mere £39BN?
Should the be printed on a double-decker or across two busses?
Dr. Deborah Birx warned on Sunday that the escalating coronavirus surge is likely to be the most trying event in U.S. history, as hospital systems around the country strain to combat its mounting daily death toll.
“This is not just the worst public health event. This is the worst event that this country will face, not just from a public health side,” Birx, the White House coronavirus response coordinator, said during a masked appearance on NBC’s “Meet the Press."
It's about evens that it beats the Civil War death toll (618,000).
The scale of the disaster unfolding in the USA is massively under appreciated.
I find it hard to believe it will. Not now there's a vaccine, it would need to more than double from here.
It will. There's a strong consensus of 330,000 by Christmas.
If there is going to be a "Thanksgiving Turbocharger" it should be manifesting in the coming weeks figures.
It is the make or break moment for how fucked the USA is.
And this of course puts the UK in contrast because currently the UK has a higher deaths per million than the US.
Tbf. Thanksgiving was 26 November. We are beginning to see the effects already. Increased cases. Hospitalisations this week. Deaths before Christmas. Canadian Thanksgiving was on October 12. It was not pretty.
Indeed. You can guarantee like clockwork that many (former Remainers) here will claim that Boris has caved or the deal is BINO no matter what the detail is.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
You can guarantee like clockwork those who are apologists for the Prime Minister and his Government will claim it's a triumph and how he has outsmarted the EU no matter what the detail is.
Not me though. I've criticised the PM and called for u turns many times this year.
I've also said in advance what I would consider a good deal and what I would consider a bad deal.
I think we need to establish for whom any Deal would be "good" or "bad"? There are plenty champing at the bit to hail any kind of Deal as a triumph for Boris Johnson and the Government and you'll forgive this opponent of the Government for being sceptical as to whether the short-term political needs of the Government are as important as the long-term economic needs of the country.
The devil will as always be in the detail but I imagine those wanting to paint any Deal as a triumph for the Prime Minister will find some ammunition and tactfully ignore other areas where the EU has got much the better of the negotiations.
Comments
So a flight is better in terms of time, and the jolting around.
In the US, at least, there was some special testing/certification to allow a larger quantity of dry ice onto a given flight (so that they can get more of the vaccine on a given flight).
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-united-airlines-overcame-major-limitation-to-fly-pfizer-vaccine-2020-11?r=US&IR=T
No worries - Verhoffy will catch up in a few days
Amazing...
Scott calls it "BoZo blinking"
Amazing...
yeah, some compromise from them...
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Offence - Mercedes - Car 63 incorrect use of tyres.pdf
What was the EUs original demand?
For December 3, I see 389k tests overall, 354k PCR tests and around 4k antibody tests, which I guess leaves 31k lateral flow tests? Probably not enough yet to have much impact on the case numbers, especially as they should have lower positivity than the people tested due to symptoms in the PCR tests.
But from there about 500k tops I can see happening realistically. From late January America will have a sane POTUS and a vaccine rollout so I don't foresee 2021 being as deadly as 2020.
I've said (for weeks) the zone for a deal is in the 30-40% range.
Here's why: it quadruples the British catch, so allowing the UK to say it "won" as the EU position was originally status quo, it allows the EU to say it "won" as it still has more than half of the fish and it allows Macron to say he "won" as his carefully choreographed strop will have downsized the ratio (from 50% to 40%) and increased the transition duration (from 3-5 years by threatening 10 years).
Now, depending on your views on Brexit you will tend to highlight one of these and ignore the rest. Scott, for example, will highlight the EU victory and say it's a capitulation.
In truth both sides have moved (the EU more on fish) and it's been a hard fought negotiation.
Going to 10 was already them blinking. As the old saying goes then, if you're ok with sex for a million but not a fiver then now you're just haggling over price.
They have a long history of racism, bigotry, and violence.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1335696573649575943?s=19
https://twitter.com/AntonSpisak/status/1335694992371806210?s=20
I've been reading this site for 15 years and I'm astonished you still post here as you have zero credibility - its clearly your innate desire to troll combined with a curious amount of free time that keeps you posting here.
Do keep going though I'm sure the employment market will keep waiting for you.
But, if the EU increased that in future to, say, 30 days minimum I see no reason why we should be obliged to follow or lose trading privileges.
There will be lots of little things like this.
Sometimes a little less anti may see posters more amenable to some of your tweets
And this latest comment by you is not correct
Namely that the UK agreeing to not set corporation tax at zero is BINO.
If so then that shows the triumph of the ERG in moving the overton window so far in their direction.
One is that the EU is tactically leaking it to calm down the EU fishing states so they can get ready to address the level-playing field issues that are the real blocker for a deal with the UK.
They might use that win as an argument to concede elsewhere tomorrow.
Another is they're trying to generate momentum and put pressure on the UK. Another is that it's true but HMG don't want to admit it as they have the ERG to manage (some of whom will view *any* deal with the EU as a betrayal).
It is the make or break moment for how fucked the USA is.
And this of course puts the UK in contrast because currently the UK has a higher deaths per million than the US.
The same people would have called May's deal a hard Brexit too.
Making Leavers cry seems to be a bigger objective than actually what the deal may or may not have in it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/06/the-observer-view-on-the-high-courts-ruling-on-puberty-blocking-drugs-for-children
'Any questioning of the gender-affirming model – and the role that trauma, internalised hostility to same-sex attraction or misleading online material may play in gender dysphoria in teenagers – is dismissed as transphobic. This is a chilling state of affairs that is detrimental to child safety.'
I'm surprised they would be as bold as that though fair play to them.
I might buy some more UK equity if it looks positive tomorrow as I think the markets love any deal now.
"Police will dedicate "significant amounts" of their time responding to "public disorder and community tensions" as protests break out across the UK, it says..." due to shortages of meds (possibly as high as 60-80% short fall) and fresh food.
Telegraph
The 7 year fishing compromise is interesting as it would be set to coincide with the end of Macron's second term, leaving the next president to deal with the angry fishermen!
Always go into negotiations asking more than you're prepared to give away.
I really would be astonished if that isn't conceded, as opposed to a blind open-book lock in with no limit on penalty - which clearly isn't reasonable:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/06/major-breakthrough-on-fishing-rights-brings-brexit-deal-closer?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true
Not me. It wont happen.
The most important principle, if the reports are true, is that the UK is getting what it asked for while the EU is getting a face saving transition to what we asked for.
Considering our fishermen will need to invest in new infrastructure it makes perfect sense to allow a transition anyway so they can get prepared.
It may be that in the modern world that negotiating is increasingly difficult with every haggling concession claimed in the media as a 'surrender' or a 'U turn'.
I've also said in advance what I would consider a good deal and what I would consider a bad deal.
But I remain doubtful.
I've always been suspicious that UK fishermen would be happier to flog any extra fishing quotas than use them themselves.
I would think it a grey area about what is gaining competitive advantage and what is normal divergence. Having said that, this is absolutely the kind of arbitration that the WTO does. It's not new.
I'm so glad I'm not responsible for negotiations like these.
Should the be printed on a double-decker or across two busses?
Canadian Thanksgiving was on October 12. It was not pretty.
The devil will as always be in the detail but I imagine those wanting to paint any Deal as a triumph for the Prime Minister will find some ammunition and tactfully ignore other areas where the EU has got much the better of the negotiations.