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A Trump branded TV channel being by the end of next month? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited December 2020 in General
A Trump branded TV channel being by the end of next month? – politicalbetting.com

I expect on the day of Biden’s inauguration Trump will do something spectacular, whilst I wouldn’t rule out Trump nuking Iran just before power transfers to Biden, I do expect something political. One of these things might be Trump announcing his intention to run for the GOP nomination in 2024 but if he might (also) announce plans for a Trump television channel.

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Comments

  • Chapeau To Ydoethur for his help with this thread
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    It just occurred to me the President in the West Wing was Josiah Bartlett and the next President will be Joseph Biden - I wonder if Sorkin et al modelled Bartlett on Biden?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,340
    stodge said:

    It just occurred to me the President in the West Wing was Josiah Bartlett and the next President will be Joseph Biden - I wonder if Sorkin et al modelled Bartlett on Biden?

    He did represent a small, Eastern State.
    NH rather than Delaware.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited December 2020
    stodge said:

    It just occurred to me the President in the West Wing was Josiah Bartlett and the next President will be Joseph Biden - I wonder if Sorkin et al modelled Bartlett on Biden?

    He based him on a few Presidents.

    The idealism of JFK and FDR, the personal integrity of Truman and Carter, the hardheaded pragmatism of Clinton, and the folksy charm of Reagan.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,134
    Perhaps the most ridiculous controversy of all time:

    "Parents fight war of words over Eton headmaster's culture change as critics are labelled 'old, white men'
    English teacher Will Knowland sacked over controversial lecture, sparking a row
    Head Master Simon Henderson has denied that he wanted to ‘shut down debate’
    Students are 'almost unanimously supportive of Simon' says a student's mother"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9022207/Parents-fight-war-words-Eton-headmasters-culture-change.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    stodge said:

    It just occurred to me the President in the West Wing was Josiah Bartlett and the next President will be Joseph Biden - I wonder if Sorkin et al modelled Bartlett on Biden?

    No, the character was based on the best qualities of Clinton and Reagan.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    It just occurred to me the President in the West Wing was Josiah Bartlett and the next President will be Joseph Biden - I wonder if Sorkin et al modelled Bartlett on Biden?

    No, the character was based on the best qualities of Clinton and Reagan.
    Apposite, as those were partly fictional, too.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    (FPT) Link to a terrific article on Dave Brubeck, whose centenary it is today.
    (Incidentally, Gioia is a very good writer.)

    https://twitter.com/tedgioia/status/1334956385226862597
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited December 2020
    We're losing to the French reserves, this might be the greatest national humiliation since the siege of Orléans.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
  • Fpt

    Another twattish snowflake melted by a tv programme.

    https://twitter.com/GerardBattenUK/status/1335561161991970817?s=20

    His twitter account appears to be a mess of abusive anti lockdown, anti vaxxing, anti Soros, anti BLM, anti EU, pro Trump ranting. What are the chances of these disparate views being held by one person?!!!

    On topic, he'll be gagging to get on Trump TV.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
  • We're losing to the French reserves, this might be the greatest national humiliation since the siege of Orléans.

    Barnier isn't French reserves, he's first XV all the way.

    Oh, you mean...
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Chapeau To Ydoethur for his help with this thread

    Can I claim that as a ‘first?’

    About the only way I’ll ever get one given I go through the VF website...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.
    Ummmm...seriously?

    Are you talking mass murder or just bollocks?
  • ydoethur said:

    Chapeau To Ydoethur for his help with this thread

    Can I claim that as a ‘first?’

    About the only way I’ll ever get one given I go through the VF website...
    Well the paragraph just above the tweet about Fox News is better than any first for you I reckon.
  • MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Well this is what happens when the GOP loses the popular vote in the seven of the last eight Presidential elections.

    Will of the people.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    Those 20m are a good reason Biden will not win the Georgia seats. They are a good reason the Senate will oppose Biden at every step.

    They are the one thing he could do to bring the disparate wings of the Republican Party together to fight in common cause.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,270
    edited December 2020
    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited December 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Chapeau To Ydoethur for his help with this thread

    Can I claim that as a ‘first?’

    About the only way I’ll ever get one given I go through the VF website...
    Well the paragraph just above the tweet about Fox News is better than any first for you I reckon.
    Possibly - but don’t you think you’re just a tad unfair to vipers there? They tend not to stab people in the back and if you let them alone, they’ll leave you alone.

    Gove and Cummings, however, are *MODERATED*
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    Republicans control the Senate and are likely to continue to do so after the Georgia elections, even if they don't it will only take Bob Menendez to block a Democrat bill. They control most state legislatures. And even if Biden wants to give 20 million people citizenship (and I'd be surprised given his position on radical change generally) I highly doubt he can.

    Funnily enough I have the opposite fear: That gerrymandering and voter suppression means the Dems are running out of time to avoid being permanently disadvantaged to an almost insurmountable degree. The popular vote tipping point was 3.5% or so, if it rises any more the Dems will really struggle to ever win.

    Republicans do have a split party problem, and it is likely to hurt them in 2024. But they are far from finished.
  • dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    It just occurred to me the President in the West Wing was Josiah Bartlett and the next President will be Joseph Biden - I wonder if Sorkin et al modelled Bartlett on Biden?

    He did represent a small, Eastern State.
    NH rather than Delaware.
    Catholic as well.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,306

    Fpt

    Another twattish snowflake melted by a tv programme.

    His twitter account appears to be a mess of abusive anti lockdown, anti vaxxing, anti Soros, anti BLM, anti EU, pro Trump ranting. What are the chances of these disparate views being held by one person?!!!

    On topic, he'll be gagging to get on Trump TV.

    At least he doesn't seem to have a problem with female vicars.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,801
    edited December 2020

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Don't you remember how people were saying that the Tories would never ever win a majority again?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473

    Fpt

    Another twattish snowflake melted by a tv programme.

    His twitter account appears to be a mess of abusive anti lockdown, anti vaxxing, anti Soros, anti BLM, anti EU, pro Trump ranting. What are the chances of these disparate views being held by one person?!!!

    On topic, he'll be gagging to get on Trump TV.

    At least he doesn't seem to have a problem with female vicars.
    I wonder how often he sees a vicar at their place of work. Certainly little evidence of Christianity in his postings
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,473
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Don't you remember how people were saying that the Tories would never ever win a majority again?
    Also said about Labour at the moment...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,801
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Don't you remember how people were saying that the Tories would never ever win a majority again?
    Also said about Labour at the moment...
    Except that is true.

    ;)
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    edited December 2020
    Wales reporting 1,916 cases today, which is shocking for a Sunday, after 1,004 last Sunday and 808 the one before. The single day high before the "circuit breaker" was 1,737.

    The 7-day average now is 300 per 100,000, and hence has almost reached the pre circuit breaker high of 302. Still a week to go until the measures that kicked in on Friday can be expected to affect the numbers.




  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,825

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    As MaxPB says, they'll get tired of losing. Nature abhors a vacuum, and given how much support Trump gets and how close it still was in key states, I don't think even if Biden tries to reweight the scales he could do so for all time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    The debate on post-Trump politics makes the assumptions both Democrats and Republicans are solid homogenous blocks and I don't think that's the case.

    Biden is, I suspect, entirely relaxed at the prospect of the GOP controlling the Senate. It will allow him to reach out to the anti-Trump elements and look bi-partisan and conciliatory and that don't do him or the Democrats any harm in either 2022 or 2024.

    There's a not insubstantial constituency of anti-Trump Republicans who could well vote for a Biden-style Democratic Party which is obviously centrist and has muted AOC and the more "progressive" elements. That will mean keeping some parts of the Trump legislative agenda (just as Blair retained certain aspects of Conservative legislation post 1997).

    They will be crucial IF the GOP remains a pro-Trump party. The other possibility is some form of schism with Trump and his acolytes leaving the GOP and setting up their own Party and running their own candidates in 2022 and 2024. That would be Christmas come early for the Democrats of course.

    As others have said, parties which get tired of losing eventually find a way to start winning again and I can certainly envisage a moderate centrist Republican regaining the White House in 2028 and hopefully by then Trump and all he stood for will either be forgotten, marginalised or an accepted part of the political mainstream (and the three aren't mutually exclusive).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    On the subject of vaccine passports, if we bring them in for COVID, is there any reason why we can’t bring them in for MMR and any other vaccines?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,825
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Don't you remember how people were saying that the Tories would never ever win a majority again?
    Also said about Labour at the moment...
    Not anymore it isn't. Might as well say the Tories will never win again after Brexit and Covid, which I'm sure someone has claimed.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited December 2020
    Owen Farrell should be publicly flogged.

    Actually so should the rest of this England side.

    If they lose this match I wouldn't object if they were injected with Covid-19.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    RobD said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Why is it not acceptable for a private company to restrict who can travel on their planes when the passenger may be a risk to others?
    Because we should not be dictated to by private companies. They serve us. The extent, or not, of the liberties we enjoy is the business of elected governments.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,306
    Stocky said:

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.

    Do you think it would be acceptable for a private members' club to have a policy of only admitting people who had been vaccinated?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,053
    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    I don't really see why Qantas (or any other airline, or venue) shouldn't impose such a requirement. They have a duty of care towards their staff and other customers. They don't hesitate to eject someone who's drunk, and there's a ban on carrying weapons. Why shouldn't they take equivalent action to reduce the risk of a passenger passing on something like Covid-19?

    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    What philosophical basis for saying that Quantas is not allowed to insist on banning the non-vaccinated from it's flights?

    Are you suggesting that not getting a vaccination is a protected belief/cause?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
  • This England team is making me reconsider my views on the death penalty.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Presumably there will need to be some international standard for proof of vaccination, or else Qantas’ plan might not work.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    edited December 2020
    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    I wonder how the chaotic alternative universe, where they continued as spirited losers, is coming along under Ed Miliband?
  • FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    There are no libertarian arguments against choice like that.

    Anyone opposed to that isn't a libertarian as much as they may use the word.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,418
    I went to the Metrocentre today. It was packed so I did not stay long.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Yet Qantas may not wish to have the cost and trouble of reimporting you from Oz if the Aussies won't let you in. As when you don't have a visa - you don't get to the border post in Sydney, because you don't even get on the plane first.
  • RobD said:

    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Why is it not acceptable for a private company to restrict who can travel on their planes when the passenger may be a risk to others?
    Because we should not be dictated to by private companies. They serve us. The extent, or not, of the liberties we enjoy is the business of elected governments.
    Private companies serve the public? No, provided they aren't discriminating based on a protected characteristic they can serve whoever the hell they want.
    Companies can and should be able to refuse service, within reason.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Latest on the East Midlands superspreader event:

    Nottingham's controversial Christmas market has "temporarily" closed - just one day after it opened.

    Mellors Group, who organised the event, said it made the decision following "unprecedented high footfall".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55206779
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    But are they “abandoning” purely because of rising numbers, or because the prov
  • Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    I disagree. Corporations are there to make money and they do so by providing a service their customers want. That service may well include ensuring their customers are kept safe from potential virus carriers whilst using their services. Even if it is not a law, I would expect most sensible companies involved in services where their customers are in close contact with each other to impose rules ensuring that those services limit the ability of people to spread the virus to others.

    Even if you disdain the principles of corporate responsibility it still just makes good commercial sense.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited December 2020

    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
    I'm in sympathy - I'm not big on civil liberties just for the sake of them - but in practice I don't see there being a vax passport for anything much other than possibly international travel. That sort of regime just feels to me like something which will not be occurring in this country.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Owen Farrell should be publicly flogged.

    Actually so should the rest of this England side.

    If they lose this match I wouldn't object if they were injected with Covid-19.

    Has Priti Patel hijacked TSE's account?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    I disagree. Corporations are there to make money and they do so by providing a service their customers want. That service may well include ensuring their customers are kept safe from potential virus carriers whilst using their services. Even if it is not a law, I would expect most sensible companies involved in services where their customers are in close contact with each other to impose rules ensuring that those services limit the ability of people to spread the virus to others.

    Even if you disdain the principles of corporate responsibility it still just makes good commercial sense.
    Plus of course their responsibilities towards their employees.

    Excluding nom-vaccinated pax maximises the safety of the cabin crew.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    alex_ said:

    But are they “abandoning” purely because of rising numbers, or because the prov
    I blame the prov.

    Fortunately they’ve now sidelined him.
  • tlg86 said:

    On the subject of vaccine passports, if we bring them in for COVID, is there any reason why we can’t bring them in for MMR and any other vaccines?

    That was already proposed by Matt Hancock last autumn before the Covid kickoff. No MMR, no state school access.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    And before you get the YF vaccine and your handy little booklet certificate to take with you, you have to sign away your rights in case you get the something like 1 in 50,000 chance of a severe reaction or 1 in 250,000 chance of serious illness that can and has led to deaths.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    edited December 2020

    Owen Farrell should be publicly flogged.

    Actually so should the rest of this England side.

    If they lose this match I wouldn't object if they were injected with Covid-19.

    Has Priti Patel hijacked TSE's account?
    I get quite passionate when England play rugby, especially when we play France, Wales, or Australia.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Yet Qantas may not wish to have the cost and trouble of reimporting you from Oz if the Aussies won't let you in. As when you don't have a visa - you don't get to the border post in Sydney, because you don't even get on the plane first.
    I don’t think Quantas care about philosophical objections.
    The pragmatic ones are rather more clear cut.
    https://twitter.com/ChampChong/status/1335218340919328769
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    Oh do stop sulking for heaven's sake.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited December 2020
    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
    I'm in sympathy - I'm not big on civil liberties just for the sake of them - but in practice I don't see there being a vax passport for anything much other than possibly international travel. That sort of regime just feels to me like something which will not be occurring in this country.
    It is pretty clear from Vaughan Gething's statement that the "credit card-sized NHS Welsh immunisation card" is (or could certainly be used as) a vax passport.

    Why are they giving out a credit card?

    I expect pubs, restaurants, nightclubs could easily ask you to produce it.

    Anyhow, I think Welsh Labour have got this right. I expect the English Toris to follow suit.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Vaccine passports - in favour. Once again the PM is weak and stupid to not be pushing this right now as a benefit of having been vaccinated. We should be encouraging pubs, bars, restaurants etc... to insist on having been vaccinated to get entrance unless there are specific health conditions which prevent vaccination that also gives you a different kind of ID for entrance in these places.

    The sooner we get 80-90% of people vaccinated the better off we'll all be and personal choice can take a running jump right now.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,418
    MaxPB said:

    Vaccine passports - in favour. Once again the PM is weak and stupid to not be pushing this right now as a benefit of having been vaccinated. We should be encouraging pubs, bars, restaurants etc... to insist on having been vaccinated to get entrance unless there are specific health conditions which prevent vaccination that also gives you a different kind of ID for entrance in these places.

    The sooner we get 80-90% of people vaccinated the better off we'll all be and personal choice can take a running jump right now.

    This is my view too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited December 2020

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    Extremely far fetched claim, for starters the 46.9% Trump has got is the highest voteshare for a losing President since the 48% Ford got in 1976 and 4 years later the GOP were back in the White House. In the last 100 years the longest period out of power has been the Democrats from 1920-1932 and 1980-1992 and the GOP from 1932-1952 but even then the pendulum turned eventually and the parties got back in power.

    Trump also increased the GOP share of the minority vote even if he fell back with white voters and no reason that trend cannot continue if needed, Jeb Bush's son for instance is half Hispanic.

    In any case, even if the US did face a permanent Democrat majority against a Trumpism dominated GOP for a decade or two I suspect the South would eventually secede completing the division started by the civil war and joined by some of the border and plains states which stuck with Trump and Trumpism would become the majority in that new state leaving the McCain and Romney faction to compete with the Democrats in the remaining US
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
    I'm in sympathy - I'm not big on civil liberties just for the sake of them - but in practice I don't see there being a vax passport for anything much other than possibly international travel. That sort of regime just feels to me like something which will not be occurring in this country.
    It is pretty clear from Vaughan Gething's statement that the "credit card-sized NHS Welsh immunisation card" is (or could certainly be used as) a vax passport.

    Why are they giving out a credit card?

    I expect pubs, restaurants, nightclubs could easily ask you to produce it.

    Anyhow, I think Welsh Labour have got this right. I expect the English Toris to follow suit.
    When though? Surely only valid when everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated? Otherwise he’ll of a row for those under 50 and being excluded...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    South Africa is 79% Black African and 9% mixed race, the USA is still 61% white, even excluding Hispanics.

    Even in South Africa the Democratic Alliance, the main opposition to the ANC, got 21% of the vote at the last election

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Farrell was clearly told of TSE’s words at full time, and bucked up.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited December 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Vaccine passports - in favour. Once again the PM is weak and stupid to not be pushing this right now as a benefit of having been vaccinated. We should be encouraging pubs, bars, restaurants etc... to insist on having been vaccinated to get entrance unless there are specific health conditions which prevent vaccination that also gives you a different kind of ID for entrance in these places.

    The sooner we get 80-90% of people vaccinated the better off we'll all be and personal choice can take a running jump right now.

    We could just do it through the NHS Covid app In reverse for most people, surely? Instead of checking in for track and trace, scan to confirm you’ve been vaccinated.

    It wouldn’t need to be for ever - only maybe for 2 years, and then a vote in Parliament to abolish it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
    I'm in sympathy - I'm not big on civil liberties just for the sake of them - but in practice I don't see there being a vax passport for anything much other than possibly international travel. That sort of regime just feels to me like something which will not be occurring in this country.
    It is pretty clear from Vaughan Gething's statement that the "credit card-sized NHS Welsh immunisation card" is (or could certainly be used as) a vax passport.

    Why are they giving out a credit card?

    I expect pubs, restaurants, nightclubs could easily ask you to produce it.

    Anyhow, I think Welsh Labour have got this right. I expect the English Toris to follow suit.
    I also agree in principle and I do understand how it could operate. A little card which you only get post vax and must show to access things like entertainments, hospitality, public transport, workspaces, etc, so that in effect you need it to live a full and normal life. But I just feel in my bones (bones?) that in this country we will not, through a mixture of lack of desire and grip and competence, be going that route. Same instinctive feeling as I had about us ever having a truly useful and comprehensive Track & Trace system. For all the talk and the money and the plans, I never for a single moment doubted that it would come to nothing.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Welsh Labour's handwritten credit card seems a good enough idea. Clubs, pubs and restaurants can ask for it, and as the threat recedes, it will gradually become dog-eared and decline in importance till it's just a souvenir of 2021 like a ration book was a souvenir of WW2. I sense the UK Government and its agencies would probably prefer a more grandiose scheme, headed by Dido Harding, with the card carrying all sorts of information etc.etc.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Why is it not acceptable for a private company to restrict who can travel on their planes when the passenger may be a risk to others?
    Because we should not be dictated to by private companies. They serve us. The extent, or not, of the liberties we enjoy is the business of elected governments.
    What about my liberty to be able to get on a plane with a minimal risk of catching covid ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Vaccine passports - in favour. Once again the PM is weak and stupid to not be pushing this right now as a benefit of having been vaccinated. We should be encouraging pubs, bars, restaurants etc... to insist on having been vaccinated to get entrance unless there are specific health conditions which prevent vaccination that also gives you a different kind of ID for entrance in these places.

    The sooner we get 80-90% of people vaccinated the better off we'll all be and personal choice can take a running jump right now.

    We could just do it through the NHS Covid app In reverse for most people, surely? Instead of checking in for track and trace, scan to confirm you’ve been vaccinated.

    It wouldn’t need to be for ever - only maybe for 2 years, and then a vote in Parliament to abolish it.
    Hmm, different systems in the four nations, remember. As Mr Gething's announcement presaged. But unless the UK [sic] Gmt show an uncharacteristic efficiency, speed and concern to agree things with the other three nations, sod all will happen in the way of a common scheme - or they will hold the rest of us back. And without a common scheme it will be like trying to spend an Ulster Bank tenner in a London taxi.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,685
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
    I'm in sympathy - I'm not big on civil liberties just for the sake of them - but in practice I don't see there being a vax passport for anything much other than possibly international travel. That sort of regime just feels to me like something which will not be occurring in this country.
    It is pretty clear from Vaughan Gething's statement that the "credit card-sized NHS Welsh immunisation card" is (or could certainly be used as) a vax passport.

    Why are they giving out a credit card?

    I expect pubs, restaurants, nightclubs could easily ask you to produce it.

    Anyhow, I think Welsh Labour have got this right. I expect the English Toris to follow suit.
    I also agree in principle and I do understand how it could operate. A little card which you only get post vax and must show to access things like entertainments, hospitality, public transport, workspaces, etc, so that in effect you need it to live a full and normal life. But I just feel in my bones (bones?) that in this country we will not, through a mixture of lack of desire and grip and competence, be going that route. Same instinctive feeling as I had about us ever having a truly useful and comprehensive Track & Trace system. For all the talk and the money and the plans, I never for a single moment doubted that it would come to nothing.
    The problem is, in this country we really don’t like ID cards, and this would feel like an ID card.

    I think it’s partly because we don’t trust the government, and it’s certainly easy to see how an ID card system can be abused. Nor do I imagine they would have the same safeguards as e.g. Estonia (where you can see whoever has accessed your data and flag up any misuse).

    But it’s still the right thing to do at this moment, in some form. Apart from anything else, all the anti-vaxxers would probably suddenly change their minds when they realise everyone is having fun except them,
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    I noticed that at that Millwall game one of the players didn't kneel. Instead he stood and raised a fist.

    I think that is what I would do. Show solidarity, but on your own terms.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    Our former man in DC, Sir Christopher Meyer, comes out for No Deal

    https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1335618363909877762?s=20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    edited December 2020
    I'm hoping vaccine cards are introduced elsewhere, USA and EU as well asmajor airlines spring to mind - it forces the Gov't to have a plan to vaccinate healthy 18 - 50 yr olds here, we could become a bit of an afterthought if deaths/cases drop off into the new year.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    FPT

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.

    As China has shown us, to get a stranglehold on the virus, you need to get a stranglehold on civil liberties.😁
    I'm in sympathy - I'm not big on civil liberties just for the sake of them - but in practice I don't see there being a vax passport for anything much other than possibly international travel. That sort of regime just feels to me like something which will not be occurring in this country.
    It is pretty clear from Vaughan Gething's statement that the "credit card-sized NHS Welsh immunisation card" is (or could certainly be used as) a vax passport.

    Why are they giving out a credit card?

    I expect pubs, restaurants, nightclubs could easily ask you to produce it.

    Anyhow, I think Welsh Labour have got this right. I expect the English Toris to follow suit.
    I also agree in principle and I do understand how it could operate. A little card which you only get post vax and must show to access things like entertainments, hospitality, public transport, workspaces, etc, so that in effect you need it to live a full and normal life. But I just feel in my bones (bones?) that in this country we will not, through a mixture of lack of desire and grip and competence, be going that route. Same instinctive feeling as I had about us ever having a truly useful and comprehensive Track & Trace system. For all the talk and the money and the plans, I never for a single moment doubted that it would come to nothing.
    The problem is, in this country we really don’t like ID cards, and this would feel like an ID card.

    I think it’s partly because we don’t trust the government, and it’s certainly easy to see how an ID card system can be abused. Nor do I imagine they would have the same safeguards as e.g. Estonia (where you can see whoever has accessed your data and flag up any misuse).

    But it’s still the right thing to do at this moment, in some form. Apart from anything else, all the anti-vaxxers would probably suddenly change their minds when they realise everyone is having fun except them,
    Yes that's a part of it. Our aversion to "that sort of thing". I'll be delighted to be proved wrong - since I like the idea - but I would happily give anyone long odds against a vax passport being successfully introduced here.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,685
    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,306
    HYUFD said:

    Our former man in DC, Sir Christopher Meyer, comes out for No Deal

    https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1335618363909877762?s=20

    If only someone could have foreseen this mess.

    https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/737709196024614912
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Someone needs to tell that to Mr Bhandari.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited December 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    Somebody proclaiming that "all lives matter" in this context is just a sly way of saying they don't give a shit about anti-black racism.
  • MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    It depends on the value of the degree - engineering and medicine, not great; gender studies - mmmmm
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK cases by specimen date

    image

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK cases by specimen data and scaled to 100k population

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK local R

    image
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    Somebody proclaiming that "all lives matter" in this context is just a sly way of saying they don't give a shit about anti-black racism.
    But that’s precisely the point. It is and always has been Black Lives Matter. Capital letters as pointed out by Eustace. It’s no good trying to pretend it’s something else when it becomes awkward.
This discussion has been closed.