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A Trump branded TV channel being by the end of next month? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK case summary

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK hospitals

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK deaths

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  • Jesus fecking wept

    https://twitter.com/GaryBurgessCI/status/1335622212133515265?s=20

    That's the UK equivalent of 66,000 new cases per day. It will be distorted because yesterday's figures were low (23) because of a technical issue - but even averaging them still leaves you with a UK equivalent of 41,000 cases/day for each of the last 3 days......

    Guernsey new cases: zero (despite testing all arrivals and being in peak "student returns")
    Guernsey total cases: four
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    RobD said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Why is it not acceptable for a private company to restrict who can travel on their planes when the passenger may be a risk to others?
    Plenty of businesses are going to want to see either a very recent test or a vaccine certificate. Airlines, sports stadiums, theatres, nightclubs, festivals, conferences - all the things that have remained closed up until now, because of the impossibility of social distancing. If they can open up six months earlier than would otherwise be the case, they’ll be making money and not relying on government support.

    It’s also a great way to get the young, especially young men who often drop off the NHS radar, to come forward for vaccination.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK R

    From case data

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    From hospitalisation date

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    What's your definition of an Empire?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Jesus fecking wept

    https://twitter.com/GaryBurgessCI/status/1335622212133515265?s=20

    That's the UK equivalent of 66,000 new cases per day. It will be distorted because yesterday's figures were low (23) because of a technical issue - but even averaging them still leaves you with a UK equivalent of 41,000 cases/day for each of the last 3 days......

    Guernsey new cases: zero (despite testing all arrivals and being in peak "student returns")
    Guernsey total cases: four

    What's the population ratio (roughly)?
  • What a finish by Son.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    What a finish by Son.

    Assist stats can be misleading. Not complaining, though (Fantasy Football perspective anyway).
  • tlg86 said:

    What a finish by Son.

    Assist stats can be misleading. Not complaining, though (Fantasy Football perspective anyway).
    Indeed, could be worse.

    https://twitter.com/conorlowe13/status/1335598063386206208
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    What a finish by Son.

    Assist stats can be misleading. Not complaining, though (Fantasy Football perspective anyway).
    Indeed, could be worse.

    https://twitter.com/conorlowe13/status/1335598063386206208
    Been there, got the t-shirt.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-internal-market-bill-scotland-wales_uk_5fca9911c5b63a153451b9bb?kf

    Interesting piece arguing that someone in the "UK" Cabinet is actually using a small portion of brain to consider the implications of the IMB's attack on devolution in Scotland and Wales. Not sure I buy it, giuven the inherent improbability, but it's not Mr J who is being fingered. And we will see what happens.
  • On topic, I think there are several problems with "Trump TV":

    1. It's a tricky one for advertisers and many of the big ones will take a pass. That's a problem for revenues.

    2. It's a competitive market and channels need to respond to their audience to prosper, not to an audience of one in Mar-a-Largo. Trump has many fans, but in six months or a year, they won't still be watching unless the service is as good as or better than Fox from their point of view. Pandering to the whims and obsessions of one peculiar man as he gets older and still odder just doesn't produce popular TV.

    3. Trump has become notorious as President for appointing people then throwing them under a bus within 18 months. Which quality candidates want to seriously damage their career for the sake of a humiliating stint as an exec or "journalist" with Trump TV? That in turn adversely affects quality.

    This, if it happens, is going the way of Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Casino etc - fanfare launch, fairly quickly into a spiral of decline.
  • HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    What's your definition of an Empire?
    American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Philippines, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, Hawaii and Palau, say hello.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited December 2020
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    What a finish by Son.

    Assist stats can be misleading. Not complaining, though (Fantasy Football perspective anyway).
    Indeed, could be worse.

    https://twitter.com/conorlowe13/status/1335598063386206208
    Been there, got the t-shirt.
    I once transferred Aguero out of my team the day before he scored five against Newcastle and he was normally my captain.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    What's your definition of an Empire?
    American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Philippines, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, Hawaii and Palau, say hello.....
    Arguably the South Pole too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    Somebody proclaiming that "all lives matter" in this context is just a sly way of saying they don't give a shit about anti-black racism.
    But that’s precisely the point. It is and always has been Black Lives Matter. Capital letters as pointed out by Eustace. It’s no good trying to pretend it’s something else when it becomes awkward.
    I thought it a weasely intimation from the Ministe. Although it may turn out to be quite a useful dog whistle from Eustice.

    It seems everyone on the front bench is currently on manoeuvres.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    What's your definition of an Empire?
    American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Philippines, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, Hawaii and Palau, say hello.....
    Arguably the South Pole too.
    There’s Norway they can claim that.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited December 2020
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The Native Americans would like a word too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The Native Americans would like a word too.
    Dakota and Oklahoma were on my list.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,889

    Owen Farrell should be publicly flogged.

    Actually so should the rest of this England side.

    If they lose this match I wouldn't object if they were injected with Covid-19.

    Has Priti Patel hijacked TSE's account?
    I think it is just Mr Eagles turning up in his true colours, as a Indian thug.
  • ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The Native Americans would like a word too.
    Dakota and Oklahoma were on my list.
    The difference between the USA and most Empires is that the USA absorbed most of what they conquered as part of their nation. A few islands are the exception.

    So Dakota and Oklahoma were absorbed as part of the federal USA rather than being kept as an imperial territory subjected.

    America is more of an aggressive country than a traditional Empire.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    On topic, I think there are several problems with "Trump TV":

    1. It's a tricky one for advertisers and many of the big ones will take a pass. That's a problem for revenues.

    2. It's a competitive market and channels need to respond to their audience to prosper, not to an audience of one in Mar-a-Largo. Trump has many fans, but in six months or a year, they won't still be watching unless the service is as good as or better than Fox from their point of view. Pandering to the whims and obsessions of one peculiar man as he gets older and still odder just doesn't produce popular TV.

    3. Trump has become notorious as President for appointing people then throwing them under a bus within 18 months. Which quality candidates want to seriously damage their career for the sake of a humiliating stint as an exec or "journalist" with Trump TV? That in turn adversely affects quality.

    This, if it happens, is going the way of Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Casino etc - fanfare launch, fairly quickly into a spiral of decline.

    Farage to be the main anchor?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    Fwor what a start in the F1
  • Fwor what a start in the F1

    Loving this! Though it would be great if a Bahrain GP could complete a first lap without a safety car...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The Native Americans would like a word too.
    Dakota and Oklahoma were on my list.
    Indeed. But those were only the most egregious ones.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Header: There's no way to individually assess good bets or bad bets in that you can't know what the chance of any actual outcome was before it happened. If there was though then I'd have the header bet as one of the worst ever recommended on PB! (And in a header too)

    What do I know though. TSE hobknobs with the god and the great - it's rumored he's even met Mike!

    Empire USA: They've done it in a different way. Better mostly, although they tend to sweep many of the early wars of conquest under the carpet. There's no way to do Imperialism well other than as a bit of a fluke. There are places across the Former British Empire that can see almost no wrong in it - I presume that was true of the Romans and is likely to be true of all Empires.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The Native Americans would like a word too.
    Dakota and Oklahoma were on my list.
    Indeed. But those were only the most egregious ones.
    The point being, those were the ones annexed by the USA despite having been set aside as non-American territory in exchange for seizures elsewhere.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Stocky said:

    RobD said:

    Stocky said:

    FPT as I missed the new thread

    On topic for once, I think Alastair is being rather disingenuous regarding his introduction to this thread header. The problem with South Africa was that the conspiracy theories and anti-scientific arguments were coming from the Government themselves. Or at least from an influential part of it. This is in no way the same as idiot anti-vaxxers spouting of on the social media or on the news. Indeed the problem with Alastair's whole thesis is that what it actually means it is that it is the people in charge who decide what is acceptable debate and what is not.

    Under different circumstances and in a situation more like that of South Africa we could well find ourselves in a position where the 'right' arguments as he and I might see them (since I agree with him regarding the importance of vaccines and the medical consensus on the pandemic) are considered wrong by the people in charge and it is we who have our views censored.

    This is why, in the end, platform denial is the wrong way to go and education and dialogue must always be the route to take to ensure people are properly informed, even if some still choose to believe something else.

    Anti-vaxxers should be free to choose to not get vaccinated.

    However, I then have absolutely no problem with anti-vaxxers being denied access to services.

    If an airline company wants to make it a precondition of flying that passengers have a certificate of vaccination, that is fine by me. Similarly, schools or shops or health services. I have no problem with vaccine passports. In fact, I believe that is where we will inevitably end up.

    It will be interesting to see which way politicians will jump on vaccine passports, as it cuts across party politics.

    As far as I can see, LibDem, SNP and the more Libertarian wing of the Tory Party have declared against them.

    Labour in Wales seem to be edging towards them (Gething has already said "Those receiving a COVID-19 vaccination will be given a credit card-sized NHS Wales immunisation card which will have the vaccine name, date of immunisation and batch number of each of the doses given handwritten on them.")

    Nadhim Zahawi & some of the English Tories also seem to be edging towards them. If SKS has said anything on the subject, I can't find it.
    Nothing there from you that I disagree with really. I am not sure at all of the logic of Libertarians opposing vaccine 'passports'. The whole point of their movement is freedom of choice. That should apply to those they disagree with as much as those they agree with. They are really big on Christians being allowed to make choices based on their religion so why shouldn't I be allowed to make choices based on science? And of course the important part about libertarianism is the right to do what you want free of government interference as long as it doesn't harm others. That last qualifier seems very important in this instance.

    But as I said in the comment you are answering I don't believe we should be no platforming such people. That is a step too far.


    I think we`re in danger of getting into a pickle over this.

    I recall travelling to an African country (I can`t remember which) and a condition of entry was providing a certificate to evidence vaccination against yellow fever, That is right and proper.

    Note that it is the country of destination that decides this not the country of departure.

    Likewise, if Australia decides to insist on evidence of Covid vaccination as a condition of entry that is fine too.

    What is NOT acceptable is for the UK government to ban UK subjects from travelling - and it is absolutely not acceptable for a corporate entity, such as Quantas, to do so.
    Why is it not acceptable for a private company to restrict who can travel on their planes when the passenger may be a risk to others?
    Because we should not be dictated to by private companies. They serve us. The extent, or not, of the liberties we enjoy is the business of elected governments.
    They just ask for proof up front and refuse to sell you a ticket, simple. Your contract is subject to you having such proof.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The Native Americans would like a word too.
    Dakota and Oklahoma were on my list.
    Indeed. But those were only the most egregious ones.
    The point being, those were the ones annexed by the USA despite having been set aside as non-American territory in exchange for seizures elsewhere.
    Ah I see. Fair enough then.
    It seems America asserts it isn't an Empire rather more frequently and loudly than any other non-empire finds necessary.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    edited December 2020
    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    So it looks like London, Wales, Northern Ireland and the South East are heading for more severe measures.

    image
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    edited December 2020
    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    Don't be a pillock. When you say "save the whales" you don't mean "fuck all other marine life". "All lives matter" is just what bigots and racists say to devalue the statement that "black lives matter".
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    I noticed that at that Millwall game one of the players didn't kneel. Instead he stood and raised a fist.

    I think that is what I would do. Show solidarity, but on your own terms.

    Better than being a sheep.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    So it looks like London, Wales, Northern Ireland and the South East are heading for more severe measures.

    image

    Was just about to ask you your opinion on exactly that point.
    Meanwhile, here in Tier 3 Tyneside we have no LA in the Top 50 on the per capita cases measure. And they are falling in real and relative terms daily.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    I don't understand Jersey. The nation only has a population of 100k. Can't they just lockdown and test everyone?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Oh well, only fifty years,* that’s all right then. Even if ‘being Given independence’ was not to put it mildly a very generous assessment of what happened to the Philippines after 1946.

    If you ever want to throw up, read Taft’s report on the Philippines, where he says how very lucky these ignorant savages are to be ruled by nice Americans rather than horrid Europeans. Even Kipling would have blushed on reading it.

    Edit - as for your last point, like the Yanks did in the later nineteenth century (and before, of course).

    *To be exact, 48 years.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Owen Farrell should be publicly flogged.

    Actually so should the rest of this England side.

    If they lose this match I wouldn't object if they were injected with Covid-19.

    Don't worry. Brace saw you over the line.
  • HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Puerto Rico hasn't been granted Statehood despite repeatedly voting for it, including last month.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823
    edited December 2020

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831

    So it looks like London, Wales, Northern Ireland and the South East are heading for more severe measures.

    image

    Very concerning that parts of England are already above 1 before the end of the lockdown can have affected the numbers.

    Today's reported cases for England was 14,294 vs 10,054 last Sunday.

    Also worth noting that most of the population of Scotland is in level 3 or 4 measures, yet it's only enough for cases to very slowly drift down. That doesn't bode well for Wales, where the latest measures apparently are roughly equivalent to level 3.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    Somebody proclaiming that "all lives matter" in this context is just a sly way of saying they don't give a shit about anti-black racism.
    But that’s precisely the point. It is and always has been Black Lives Matter. Capital letters as pointed out by Eustace. It’s no good trying to pretend it’s something else when it becomes awkward.
    A movement against anti black racism should not have to declare a wider scope in order to command support. If this is your point I have no problem with it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Puerto Rico hasn't been granted Statehood despite repeatedly voting for it, including last month.
    It still has a resident commissioner within Congress and is a US territory, not a colony
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    edited December 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Puerto Rico hasn't been granted Statehood despite repeatedly voting for it, including last month.
    It still has a resident commissioner within Congress and is a US territory, not a colony
    You just don't want to class the USA as an empire because it might get in the way of your British Empire wank-a-thon.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    What's your definition of an Empire?
    American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico the U.S. Virgin Islands, the Philippines, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, Hawaii and Palau, say hello.....
    What is the continental US if not occupied territory ?
    Though admittedly some chunks of it before the states united.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Puerto Rico hasn't been granted Statehood despite repeatedly voting for it, including last month.

    You would hope that is one long standing injustice and anomaly that Biden will look to correct. But he would need the votes in the Senate.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    edited December 2020
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
    You're moving the goalposts for @HYUFD.

    If an Empire means you don't integrate colonial possessions then France doesn't count. If it does, then the USA does count.

    This is just @HYUFD HYUFD-splaining the definition of Empire. Typical.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That said, Priyamvada Gopal is still an obnoxious pillock at the very least for saying ‘white lives don’t matter, as white lives.‘
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
    You're moving the goalposts for @HYUFD.

    If an Empire means you don't integrate colonial possessions then France doesn't count. If it does, then the USA does count.

    This is just @HYUFD HYUFD-splaining the definition of Empire. Typical.
    I'm not moving anything. Only a few areas of France's colonial empire was integrated into France proper. I don't think it is comparable to the US, where the vast majority was.
  • ydoethur said:

    Puerto Rico hasn't been granted Statehood despite repeatedly voting for it, including last month.

    You would hope that is one long standing injustice and anomaly that Biden will look to correct. But he would need the votes in the Senate.
    He should have the votes in the Senate if it comes to a vote, since many Republicans like Rubio are longstanding advocates of PR statehood, but I can see McConnell refusing to allow the vote. That is a warped system they have.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    MaxPB said:

    Vaccine passports - in favour. Once again the PM is weak and stupid to not be pushing this right now as a benefit of having been vaccinated. We should be encouraging pubs, bars, restaurants etc... to insist on having been vaccinated to get entrance unless there are specific health conditions which prevent vaccination that also gives you a different kind of ID for entrance in these places.

    The sooner we get 80-90% of people vaccinated the better off we'll all be and personal choice can take a running jump right now.

    Yep agree entirely.

    Edit.

    I am afraid some of our freedom espousing libertarian types forget that the basic principle of their creed (my creed as it happens) is that it is as much about individual personal responsibility as individual personal rights. They want the rights but don't seem to be interested in the responsibilities. They are a poor advert for their supposed beliefs and it is sad to see how many of them there are out there.
    I think that we will find that vaccination passports will be created by default - GPs letters that x has been vaccinated on day y.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
    You're moving the goalposts for @HYUFD.

    If an Empire means you don't integrate colonial possessions then France doesn't count. If it does, then the USA does count.

    This is just @HYUFD HYUFD-splaining the definition of Empire. Typical.
    I'm not moving anything. Only a few areas of France's colonial empire was integrated into France proper. I don't think it is comparable to the US, where the vast majority was.
    Exactly - the definiton of "Empire" is blurry. It isn't obvious and clear cut as @HYUFD wants us to think.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
    You're moving the goalposts for @HYUFD.

    If an Empire means you don't integrate colonial possessions then France doesn't count. If it does, then the USA does count.

    This is just @HYUFD HYUFD-splaining the definition of Empire. Typical.
    I'm not moving anything. Only a few areas of France's colonial empire was integrated into France proper. I don't think it is comparable to the US, where the vast majority was.
    Those areas of the empire closest to France (Corsica, Algeria) were integrated, albeit badly, and they correspond most closely to the US expansion across the continent.

    Or Britain and Ireland, perhaps.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
    You're moving the goalposts for @HYUFD.

    If an Empire means you don't integrate colonial possessions then France doesn't count. If it does, then the USA does count.

    This is just @HYUFD HYUFD-splaining the definition of Empire. Typical.
    I'm not moving anything. Only a few areas of France's colonial empire was integrated into France proper. I don't think it is comparable to the US, where the vast majority was.
    Exactly - the definiton of "Empire" is blurry. It isn't obvious and clear cut as @HYUFD wants us to think.
    How does that prove it is blurry if the argument is that the US isn't an empire?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    That might be true for the North African colonies, but was it true for mandates like in the middle east?
    You're moving the goalposts for @HYUFD.

    If an Empire means you don't integrate colonial possessions then France doesn't count. If it does, then the USA does count.

    This is just @HYUFD HYUFD-splaining the definition of Empire. Typical.
    I'm not moving anything. Only a few areas of France's colonial empire was integrated into France proper. I don't think it is comparable to the US, where the vast majority was.
    Exactly - the definiton of "Empire" is blurry. It isn't obvious and clear cut as @HYUFD wants us to think.
    Argentina, the classic banana republics, and so on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That said, Priyamvada Gopal is still an obnoxious pillock at the very least for saying ‘white lives don’t matter, as white lives.‘
    Challenge -

    - Find any cause in the history of the world
    - You will find at least one obnoxious arse who, using said cause, has advocated all kind of horrible shite.
    - I am not aware of any cause/belief system for which this is not true.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That said, Priyamvada Gopal is still an obnoxious pillock at the very least for saying ‘white lives don’t matter, as white lives.‘
    100% agreed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Let's not forget the Empire of Brazil also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Brazil
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That said, Priyamvada Gopal is still an obnoxious pillock at the very least for saying ‘white lives don’t matter, as white lives.‘
    Fake news.

    https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/20190
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Nope, included within my original definition 'To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries which are not part of your home nation'
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    These things;

    "All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice."

    Wildly ambiguous - I certainly agree with the first - no idea what it equates to though. I worry about what justice means in the second.

    I think society is more about unwritten pacts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited December 2020

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    The Austro-Hungarian Empire; the Kaiser's Empire; The Holy Roman and plain Roman Empire; the Byzantines; and the Third Reich all say Heil/Ave/Chairete.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Nope, included within my original definition 'To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries which are not part of your home nation'
    So you agree the USA was an Empire then. Glad we agree.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That is the post of the day for me, well said philip.
    Good to hear the Spurs fans clap, when the players took the knee.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That said, Priyamvada Gopal is still an obnoxious pillock at the very least for saying ‘white lives don’t matter, as white lives.‘
    Challenge -

    - Find any cause in the history of the world
    - You will find at least one obnoxious arse who, using said cause, has advocated all kind of horrible shite.
    - I am not aware of any cause/belief system for which this is not true.
    Undoubtedly. But that’s separate from the question of whether she should have played the race card to get away with a fairly blatant act of racism, and indeed whether Cambridge should have let her.

    Admittedly, compared to the wider issue it’s a small point. But equally, since many leading BLM activists are themselves pretty nasty human beings, her addition toor subtraction from the movement would make little difference to that.

    The problem with Gopal was that it distracted from the legitimate message - that black lives matter - and gave huge amounts of ammunition to those saying they were all just nuts.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    Is England under HYUFD an Empire? He did say how much he apprtoved of General Franco the other day.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    I literally used the definition from the first sentence in the wikipedia article.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    Don't be a pillock. When you say "save the whales" you don't mean "fuck all other marine life". "All lives matter" is just what bigots and racists say to devalue the statement that "black lives matter".
    F*** you as well. What kind of idiot gets from save the whales to "f*** all other marine life". If you cannot answer a question civilly then don't make an arse of yourself.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    edited December 2020
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    I literally used the definition from the first sentence in the wikipedia article.
    You're going round in circles.

    If Russia was an Empire, If Brazil was an Empire, if Austria-Hungary was an Empire, then the USA was an Empire. The fact that the continuous USA is still one nation state is neither here nor there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265
    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    Is England under HYUFD an Empire? He did say how much he apprtoved of General Franco the other day.
    No, England is a country, the UK a sovereign country and union
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    Don't be a pillock. When you say "save the whales" you don't mean "fuck all other marine life". "All lives matter" is just what bigots and racists say to devalue the statement that "black lives matter".
    F*** you as well. What kind of idiot gets from save the whales to "f*** all other marine life". If you cannot answer a question civilly then don't make an arse of yourself.
    If you intend to devalue the statement that "black lives matter" then I have nothing but contempt for you anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    It is but it's also obnoxious and unnecessary, only said to cause offence and stir trouble.

    It's like if Liverpool fans hold a minute's silence for the 96, or say Justice for the 96, then people interrupt that with a counterprotest banners saying "it should be justice for everyone".

    All lives do matter. Everyone should get justice. The reason people said Justice for the 96 was because the 96 were denied justice though. The reason people say Black Lives Matter is because black lives are treated like they don't matter.
    That said, Priyamvada Gopal is still an obnoxious pillock at the very least for saying ‘white lives don’t matter, as white lives.‘
    Fake news.

    https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/20190
    That was a different tweet the Daily Mail got pulled up over, as the article makes clear:

    The Daily Mail’s clarifications recognised this, saying: “We also partially quoted another tweet from Professor Gopal as saying: ‘White lives don’t matter.’ The tweet in fact continued: ’As white lives.’” Making it quite clear that “Professor Gopal’s actual view is that all lives should be valued

    That last sentence is pretty disingenuous, in fact, but that again is a different story.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265
    edited December 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Nope, included within my original definition 'To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries which are not part of your home nation'
    So you agree the USA was an Empire then. Glad we agree.
    No as the USA did not take control of large numbers of countries not part of the home nation, at most the Philippines being the only exception
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    I literally used the definition from the first sentence in the wikipedia article.
    You're going round in circles.

    If Russia was an Empire, If Brazil was an Empire, if Austria-Hungary was an Empire, then the USA was an Empire. The fact that the continuous USA is still one nation state is neither here nor there.
    From the same article:

    The United States is not traditionally recognized as an empire, in part because the U.S. adopted a different political system from those that previous empires had used. Despite these systematic differences, the political objectives and strategies of the United States government have been quite similar to those of previous empires.[67]
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    I literally used the definition from the first sentence in the wikipedia article.
    You're going round in circles.

    If Russia was an Empire, If Brazil was an Empire, if Austria-Hungary was an Empire, then the USA was an Empire. The fact that the continuous USA is still one nation state is neither here nor there.
    From the same article:

    The United States is not traditionally recognized as an empire, in part because the U.S. adopted a different political system from those that previous empires had used. Despite these systematic differences, the political objectives and strategies of the United States government have been quite similar to those of previous empires.[67]
    And?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    Is England under HYUFD an Empire? He did say how much he apprtoved of General Franco the other day.
    No, England is a country, the UK a sovereign country and union
    I will remind you of that next time you argue that English Tory MPs should always be allowed to override the democratically expressed will of the Scottish people.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,427
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Nope, included within my original definition 'To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries which are not part of your home nation'
    So you agree the USA was an Empire then. Glad we agree.
    No as the USA did not take control of large numbers of countries not part of the home nation, at most the Phillippines being the only exception

    No, you've made it clear that we agree, so thank you for that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    Don't be a pillock. When you say "save the whales" you don't mean "fuck all other marine life". "All lives matter" is just what bigots and racists say to devalue the statement that "black lives matter".
    F*** you as well. What kind of idiot gets from save the whales to "f*** all other marine life". If you cannot answer a question civilly then don't make an arse of yourself.
    Yes Malcolm, you are the benchmark of civility that we all aspire to.
    He is the one who has Ayrs and graces.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,823

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    I literally used the definition from the first sentence in the wikipedia article.
    You're going round in circles.

    If Russia was an Empire, If Brazil was an Empire, if Austria-Hungary was an Empire, then the USA was an Empire. The fact that the continuous USA is still one nation state is neither here nor there.
    From the same article:

    The United States is not traditionally recognized as an empire, in part because the U.S. adopted a different political system from those that previous empires had used. Despite these systematic differences, the political objectives and strategies of the United States government have been quite similar to those of previous empires.[67]
    And?
    You are saying the US was an empire, but that view is apparently not widespread.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tres said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/millwall-fans-who-booed-players-taking-a-knee-should-be-respected-says-eustice

    Sanjay Bhandari, the chair of the football anti-discrimination body Kick It Out, accused Eustice of a “lazy conflation of taking a knee with a specific political movement” in his criticism of BLM.

    Looks like someone needs to educate Mr Bhandari about this.

    Eustice is the man for whitesplaining.
    He certainly knows more than those trying to argue it’s about anti-racism in general. Remember how much pushback there was when anyone said “all lives matter”?
    "All lives matters" is just another trope for racists.
    Can you explain why on that, serious question. Surely everyone's life is equal.
    Don't be a pillock. When you say "save the whales" you don't mean "fuck all other marine life". "All lives matter" is just what bigots and racists say to devalue the statement that "black lives matter".
    F*** you as well. What kind of idiot gets from save the whales to "f*** all other marine life". If you cannot answer a question civilly then don't make an arse of yourself.
    Yes Malcolm, you are the benchmark of civility that we all aspire to.
    He is the one who has Ayrs and graces.
    Now now, don't be neepy.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Central African Empire .... :wink:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,265
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    The republicans won;t win in 2024 or ever again, no matter who they put up.

    The party is now totally divided between the Trump wing and the McCain/Romney rump. The former now loathe the latter more than the democrats for not fighting with Trump against what they see as widespread vote rigging.

    Meanwhile Joe Biden is intent on giving up to 20 million illegal immigrants citizenship as one of his first acts. Plus the immigration gates will be re-opened to many millions more.

    Wonder who they are going to vote for.

    Its over for the republicans. And right wing politics in America.

    No, eventually they'll get tired of losing. It took the Tory party 8 years until they made Dave leader.
    Nah the numbers are against you. A right wing coalition of any kind will be impossible after team Biden change America's demographics like they intend to.

    America today. South Africa one day. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But it would change the balance of the world enormously.
    Why do you assume Hispanic Americans will never vote conservative ?
    That’s a very odd opinion.
    @contrarian, don't despair. This is an interesting piece from the NYT

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/biden-blue-collar-voters.html

    The point: education more than ethnicity is likely to be the key determinant factor moving forwards. The news there is quite positive from a GOP standpoint: while student enrolment went up well over 40% from 1999 to 2011, it has actually been declining for the past few years and the projections are for a flatlining i.e. down as a % of the population. So, while the Democrats may have been boosted by the 1999-2011 growth, that engine of growth is slowing down.

    https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/tables/dt19_303.10.asp

    Also, the values thing is the key. Black and Hispanic voters generally have more conservative values. The shift has already started to the GOP on the Republican side and, for young Black males, it is starting (remember many older Black voters have a very strong affinity to the Democrat party).

    FWIW, I don't think that Biden will get 20m illegal immigrants made citizens - part because of the courts, part the Senate (Manchin wouldn't vote for it for a start and the AZ senators may have some qualms) and also because the political benefits may not be so great if illegal immigrants are concentrated in Democrat cities / states and such a measures means the loss of white votes.

    One other point. It can be easy to overlook the shifts. Ohio, Iowa and, crucially, Florida are looking like safer Republican bets. Yes, Georgia and Arizona have gone the other way but the Democrats in 2024 are far more stretched in terms of defence - those two states, PA, WI and MI will all require considerable defending. For the Republicans, probably NC is the only one that looks vulnerable (I doubt the Democrats will go big on Texas next time).
    Cheering the decline in educational standards for political partisanship is probably a good leading indicator for the decline of a once great empire!
    The USA has never really been an Empire, a superpower yes but not an Empire
    It’s a good job the people of Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Dakota, Oklahoma and New Mexico weren’t overwhelmed by the imperial outreach of the USA.

    Imagine how miserable their lives would have been if they had been conquered, their lands and money seized and their resources ruthlessly exploited while anyone who resisted was shot.
    The only one of those which are not part of the present USA is the Phillippines and it was only held for 50 years by the US before being given independence after being part of the Spanish Empire.

    To be an Empire you have to have taken control of large numbers of countries and territories which are not part of your home nation
    Says who? Says you?
    I thought that was a generally accepted definition of an empire? A large territory consisting of vassal states.
    So did France not have an empire because they integrated their colonial possessions into France proper?
    The French Empire covered most of North Africa, Vietnam, Syria etc it was far larger than the extent of any US overseas possessions ever was and while Algeria may have been incorporated within France, Morocco, Vietnam, Syria etc were not
    Oh, so is it only an Empire if the possessions are "overseas"? That rules out the Russian Empire I guess.
    Alaska says hello. ;)
    Did Russia cease to be an Empire when it sold Alaska?
    No, it was a large territory consisting of several distinct peoples ruled by a single authority. As I said earlier, one of the generally accepted definitions of an empire.
    "distinct peoples" is arbitrary. Is modern Spain an Empire?
    Is England under HYUFD an Empire? He did say how much he apprtoved of General Franco the other day.
    No, England is a country, the UK a sovereign country and union
    I will remind you of that next time you argue that English Tory MPs should always be allowed to override the democratically expressed will of the Scottish people.
    Scots reaffirmed their commitment to the Union in the once in a generation 2014 referendum
This discussion has been closed.