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WH2020: Key state turnout as percentage of votes cast – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    kicorse said:

    Here's a question Peston and co might like to ask today:

    Can you tell me how many in the 0-19 age group have died in English hospitals during the last month ?

    The answer is zero.

    And a total of one during the last four months.

    If they ask it, they'll deserve a contemptuous response. By now, any journalist should understand that you can be a vector of a deadly disease even if you don't die from it yourself.
    So the young are to have their future destroyed to keep sick oldies alive a few more months and so that obese slobs can have their risks reduced slightly.

    Lockdown the young now because we allowed holidays to Spain in July.
    Presumably the young weren't among those taking advantage of being allowed to take holidays to Spain in July so are absolved of all responsibility.
    I don't condemn people for holidaying in Spain, or Greece. Both countries have had a really torrid time in recent years. I was astonished to learn just how important British tourism is to each of their economies (the absence of foreign holidays has been a big factor in the UK trade surplus).
    I dunno. To take a foreign holiday in the middle of a global pandemic is pretty dumb.
    It did wonders for my mental health. And I had a great time, at negligible risk to my health.
    What about the health of others?
    All good.
    The beauty of COVID is that you could have had it, completely asymptomatically, passed in on to tons of people. etc etc.

    You have no way of knowing, short of an antibody test.
    But why the theory that there is increased risk in going to the nasty dirty abroad? Except for countries with demonstrably higher rates of infection than here, who is to say that if I had stayed at home the virus might have mutated in my next door neighbour who would then have popped round and infected me, so I was actually dodging a bullet on my own behalf and those whom I might otherwise have infected by going off on holiday?
    What risk in the airport. What risk in the place? etc etc

    Staying at home, working from home, venturing out to shop with mask etc. would have been lower risk for everyone.
    Also allowing people to travel widely, impossible to track and trace. Ask somebody who they encountered during 2 weeks on holidays, well 1000s at the airport, 100s at different bars, restaurants, the beach, etc. And who those people were, no idea.

    Very different from I spent 2 weeks working from home, I went for one meal with these 2 friends, I did 2 gym classes (where everybody is signed in), and I had a pint with a mate.
    Lol. Every German hotel and restaurant I visited made me fill out a form with all my contact details and the times I visited. At home, not so much...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    It's be an interesting vote on Wednesday if the case data next week follows today's.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    It's time for the government to start giving us all heroin for free. That's the only way through this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    If I was in the Cabinet, the price of my support would be Dido being sacked and Hancock being sacked. Both of them have proved to be completely inadequate for this challenge.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    I think we've heard that nostrum before and nothing happened except £12b was pissed up a wall.

    To be fair some bright spark discovered dexamethasone helped the very ill.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    MaxPB said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    Just stay, the only thing is that everything will be shut despite the incidence rate in SW England basically being nothing.
    That is what I am hoping we can do. We came here to do nothing anyway, maybe a few long walks and some sea air.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    LadyG said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    No, you will need to return by Thursday midnight I beleive
    So, where you gonna run to this time?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    So the Govt were so "furious" that somebody leaked all this last night, that they brought forward the announcement and leaked more of it an hour in advance.

    Or did they give it to journalists and put a 4pm embargo on it to coincide with the Press Conference. Forgetting to change the embargo time when they moved the press conference?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited October 2020
    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    kicorse said:

    Here's a question Peston and co might like to ask today:

    Can you tell me how many in the 0-19 age group have died in English hospitals during the last month ?

    The answer is zero.

    And a total of one during the last four months.

    If they ask it, they'll deserve a contemptuous response. By now, any journalist should understand that you can be a vector of a deadly disease even if you don't die from it yourself.
    So the young are to have their future destroyed to keep sick oldies alive a few more months and so that obese slobs can have their risks reduced slightly.

    Lockdown the young now because we allowed holidays to Spain in July.
    Presumably the young weren't among those taking advantage of being allowed to take holidays to Spain in July so are absolved of all responsibility.
    I don't condemn people for holidaying in Spain, or Greece. Both countries have had a really torrid time in recent years. I was astonished to learn just how important British tourism is to each of their economies (the absence of foreign holidays has been a big factor in the UK trade surplus).
    I dunno. To take a foreign holiday in the middle of a global pandemic is pretty dumb.
    It did wonders for my mental health. And I had a great time, at negligible risk to my health.
    What about the health of others?
    All good.
    The beauty of COVID is that you could have had it, completely asymptomatically, passed in on to tons of people. etc etc.

    You have no way of knowing, short of an antibody test.
    But why the theory that there is increased risk in going to the nasty dirty abroad? Except for countries with demonstrably higher rates of infection than here, who is to say that if I had stayed at home the virus might have mutated in my next door neighbour who would then have popped round and infected me, so I was actually dodging a bullet on my own behalf and those whom I might otherwise have infected by going off on holiday?
    What risk in the airport. What risk in the place? etc etc

    Staying at home, working from home, venturing out to shop with mask etc. would have been lower risk for everyone.
    Also allowing people to travel widely, impossible to track and trace. Ask somebody who they encountered during 2 weeks on holidays, well 1000s at the airport, 100s at different bars, restaurants, the beach, etc. And who those people were, no idea.

    Very different from I spent 2 weeks working from home, I went for one meal with these 2 friends, I did 2 gym classes (where everybody is signed in), and I had a pint with a mate.
    Lol. Every German hotel and restaurant I visited made me fill out a form with all my contact details and the times I visited. At home, not so much...
    Well we supposed you have to do now that with the QR code app. But that fine they did in while you travelled in Germany, does the contact tracer in the UK have access to that info and vice versa, does the German version know you got the plague when you test positive back in the UK?

    Lets everybody from all over Europe head to Spanish beaches, bars and restaurants was insanity, and every country is now paying the price.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Bob, has produced a bingo card for 5.00 pm.

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1322562692771696640

    Boris will as usual just copy Sturgeon.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    No, you will need to return by Thursday midnight I beleive
    Didn't you just book a foreign holiday?
    I was joking. Even the Canaries require a negative test, and organising all that AND a flight and hotel by Wednesday will be tricky.

    I will just have to do this one alone with my newts. And several hundred bottles of Rioja Gran Reserva
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Utterly predictable we would end up in national lockdown. Boris has wasted weeks dithering and kidding himself all would be fine.

    Not sure Drakeford is wise either to promise what will happen post- firebreak.

    At some point politicians need to understand - the virus sets the timetable, not them.

    Yep Drakeford is trying to get political "credit" for acting early. But come next week Wales is going to be on a par, at best, with middle of the road English regions. So quite why they will be in a position to say a decisive "no" to a longer lockdown, as England enters one, isn't clear.

    Sturgeon also seems to be claiming that she might not need to follow England because "the signs are that transmission in Scotland is coming down". Well exactly the same is true in England on their published data. R number falling. Almost below 1 in the North West - the area with the harshest restrictions. Quite why we are publishing data in England when the scientists seems to dismiss everything it is saying in favour of their own models, who knows?
    Drakeford deserves a bit of credit for recognising the obvious a few weeks earlier than Boris (or Sturgeon...)

    I suspect the firebreak will have a big impact and will reduce infections substantially. Time will tell.

    Unless Drakeford has data to back him up we haven't seen, it's foolish to promise what he will do after the firebreak.
    And then what? We stay in those measures forever because as soon as they are relaxed we're back to where we are now in a few short weeks.
    If we can get cases down to the point where track, trace, isolate can cope, then we can control the epidemic and we won't need more lockdowns.

    In addition - more time gives us chance to improve TTI system, gets us closer to a vaccine and better treatments, AND prevents the inevitable Christmas increase in contacts from being quite so devastating.
    So the system magically fixes itself? If it was possible to do it then it would have happened by now.
    The system has a capacity it can handle and a capacity it cannot.

    If there was 1 covid case in the UK, I suspect even Dido Harding could manage to trace all of those contacts in 24 hours and get enough of them to isolate to keep R under 1.

    Presumably the continuing efforts to improve capacity are having some positive effect.

    So capacity is continually growing, unfortunately it is lagging the virus. Circuit break for 3 weeks could plausibly reduce cases by 40-50%.

    That *might* be enough to get things back under control.
    What a load of rubbish. It's the same system that had plenty of capacity in August and we ended up in this situation.

    Testing capacity isn't a problem, it's keeping the people who have the virus separate from those who don't. You like many others have completely misunderstood what the problem actually is. More of the same testing capacity won't change anything and we're going to be back where we are today within a couple of weeks at best, or more realistically nothing is actually going to change.
    Testing capacity is more than just numbers of tests.
    *The speed is key*. Turnaround time meets the 24 hour target in less than half of cases.
    That needs to be 100%. We don't currently have the capacity to do that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Utterly predictable we would end up in national lockdown. Boris has wasted weeks dithering and kidding himself all would be fine.

    Not sure Drakeford is wise either to promise what will happen post- firebreak.

    At some point politicians need to understand - the virus sets the timetable, not them.

    Yep Drakeford is trying to get political "credit" for acting early. But come next week Wales is going to be on a par, at best, with middle of the road English regions. So quite why they will be in a position to say a decisive "no" to a longer lockdown, as England enters one, isn't clear.

    Sturgeon also seems to be claiming that she might not need to follow England because "the signs are that transmission in Scotland is coming down". Well exactly the same is true in England on their published data. R number falling. Almost below 1 in the North West - the area with the harshest restrictions. Quite why we are publishing data in England when the scientists seems to dismiss everything it is saying in favour of their own models, who knows?
    Drakeford deserves a bit of credit for recognising the obvious a few weeks earlier than Boris (or Sturgeon...)

    I suspect the firebreak will have a big impact and will reduce infections substantially. Time will tell.

    Unless Drakeford has data to back him up we haven't seen, it's foolish to promise what he will do after the firebreak.
    And then what? We stay in those measures forever because as soon as they are relaxed we're back to where we are now in a few short weeks.
    Look at the graph of UK Covid deaths* on, say, Worldometer:

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

    The up-curve of each wave is steep, the down-curve is shallow, the valley bottom was broad. For the UK those stages were approximately 3 weeks, 10 weeks and 10 weeks. One week's increase takes approximately 3 weeks to remove.

    It therefore makes sense to apply lock-down very early in the rise of each wave, since it can be applied for less time. Each week earlier a lockdown is applied, saves three weeks of lockdown.

    Of course, we have missed that chance in wave 2 despite the scientists proposing it.

    (*Sadly, deaths are more useful here than cases because case numbers are afftected by testing levels.)
    Well, the earlier you apply a new lockdown the less time you have spent out of lockdown. The earlier you impose a new lockdown the closer you get to being in lockdown all the time.

    And, in any case, it's not like we were able to enjoy life out of lockdown in between. We didn't have mass spectator sport back as they do in Australia and New Zealand. What proportion of the time do you think we'd have to spend in lockdown?

    I just don't see it as a sustainable plan. The longer it goes on the more wild the excesses will be in the windows between lockdown, and the faster a new lockdown would have to be imposed.

    Isolate the infectious instead of isolating everyone.
    It's not an either or - I'd advocate both. Unfortunately HMG have put a numpty in charge of test and trace (but hey, at least she's 'one of us').

    Also, you miss the point that we ran for 10-12 weeks through the summer with low levels of infection. No reason to think we wouldn't have had a similar 'quiet' period if we had locked down at the start of March and reduced the peak, and therefore the time to get the nubers right back down, by half or two-thirds.

    Instead of 3 weeks rise, 9 weeks fall and 10-12 weeks relative abeyance, we could have had a pattern of 1:3:10. So say 4 weeks in lock down out of 14 rather than 12 out of 24.

    And btw, anyone who thinks this next lockdown is now going to be just a few weeks is deluded.
    I'm going to try and understand it with a very simple model, where the case rate increases by 30% a week in between lockdowns, and decreases by 20% a week during lockdown. Lockdown is released when the case rate declines to below 10 (per 100k). In the Early version lockdown is imposed when the case rate goes above 100 and in the Late version lockdown is not imposed until the case rate goes above 1000. Cases start at 10.

    Early. After 9 weeks without lockdown the case rate reaches 106 and lockdown is imposed. After 11 weeks the case rate declines to 9.1 and lockdown is released. After 10 weeks the case rate reaches 126 and lockdown is imposed again. This time it takes 12 weeks to reduce the case rate to 8.6. 10 more weeks without lockdown, 12 with. So 29 weeks without lockdown and 35 with, 55% of the time in lockdown.

    Late. 18 weeks without lockdown, 22 weeks with lockdown. 19 without, 22 with lockdown. Then another cycle of 18 without and 21 with lockdown. So 55 weeks without and 65 with, 54% of the time in lockdown.

    Imposing lockdown early doesn't make much difference to the amount of time you spend in lockdown, if lockdown is your only method of controlling the spread of the virus. What it will do is avoid a greater number of deaths.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    On government data, I think the R is more reliably calculated from hospital admissions data, but unfortunately it runs 12-17 days behind the true R, specimen day cases run around 7-10 days behind the true R. I think the specimen day R values are no longer representative of what's actually happening in the country even if they do tell a better story than they were two weeks ago with many regions and countries now showing a negative R value.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463
    edited October 2020

    All well and good to say that, but what...We have 500k a day testing capacity, thats plenty. "Improve Track and Trace", how?....what other systems can be put in place in a month?

    Its dead easy to claim better handling, but much harder to come up with plans that a) can be implemented within a few weeks and b) people, especially the media, will accept e.g sending people to gulags to quarantine (as they would phrase it).
    Relation of mine had a test last Saturday, got the result Tuesday. Positive, as she expected.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    edited October 2020
    o
    LadyG said:

    What a monumentally dismal prospect we face

    Lanzarote isn't that bad. Take a few books, I think SK Tremayne does some popular airport thrillers.

    😎🌞
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    .
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    No, you will need to return by Thursday midnight I beleive
    Didn't you just book a foreign holiday?
    I was joking. Even the Canaries require a negative test, and organising all that AND a flight and hotel by Wednesday will be tricky.

    I will just have to do this one alone with my newts. And several hundred bottles of Rioja Gran Reserva
    Several hundred bottle? I hate to break it to you, but this is going to be longer than a week. ;)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    Remember when I said that there were in effect 5 tiers of Shagger's 3 tier plan? That as well the missing "Low" tier we would have to have an "Extremely High" tier because Whitty said 3 wouldn't be enough? I remember some (like Philip) doggedly insisting that wasn't true.

    And yet here we are with Tier 4. Don't forget folks. It is NOT a national lockdown. Merely a new very high regional tier shutting pubs and shops and banning travel being applied to all regions at once.

    Oh how they scoffed when Sturgeon announced a Tier 4.
    How much fury was there in Wales?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355

    Mortimer said:

    Sky reporting from Liverpool just now showing a queue for a Halloween fancy dress shop.

    The reporter commented that on speaking to those in the queue they want to get their fancy dress for their parties tonight and have no intention of following the rules

    No matter what Boris does or anyone else fighting this pandemic until a strictly policed stay at home curfew is introduced this pandemic will continue unchecked

    So rather than lockdown the shops, have a strictly policed curfew? For someone who needed regular inhalations of smelling salts just 'cos of the great Drakeford repression of toaster sales, you have a strangely inconsistent position on authoritarian measures.
    In the areas that need it...
    So allow shops to stay open but use (scarce) police resources to keep people off the streets so those shops don't make sales anyway?

    I'm sure Boris wouldn't mind floating a shoot-to-kill policy to enforce a curfew for mawkishly sentimental Scousers and 'a society that has become hooked on grief and likes to wallow in a sense of vicarious victimhood’.
    Not sure you understand the curfew

    It is designed to stop people socialising in the evening but allowing normal social distancing shopping

    France has introduced one between 9.00pm and 6.00am
    In France you can't leave your home without telling the government online where you are going, when and why.

    That's a level of lockdown we never had even in March.
    I doubt that is correct , you have to print off a template and fill it in with times, places you are going and why and carry it with you. Given you are allowed an hour for shopping , if you are stopped and your signed paper does not match you are huckled.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    MaxPB said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    Just stay, the only thing is that everything will be shut despite the incidence rate in SW England basically being nothing.
    That is what I am hoping we can do. We came here to do nothing anyway, maybe a few long walks and some sea air.
    But I am pretty sure hotels will be told to enforce the law: this will be policed. And you are only allowed to stay overnight outside your home for work from Thursday on, No more holidays.

    Of course if you are in some self catering or, even better, a 2nd home you'll probably be fine. You will be breaking the rules but no one will check.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    LadyG said:

    What a monumentally dismal prospect we face

    Have you tried microdosing psychedelics? I absolutely would never recommend such a thing, but a friend of mine finds it the most effective way of tackling major depression he has encountered in 30 years of research. Or rather he thinks it might be, if only it were legal to give it a try.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    All those publicans who spent fortunes getting equipped for outdoor winter drinking will be fuming
  • rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Utterly predictable we would end up in national lockdown. Boris has wasted weeks dithering and kidding himself all would be fine.

    Not sure Drakeford is wise either to promise what will happen post- firebreak.

    At some point politicians need to understand - the virus sets the timetable, not them.

    Yep Drakeford is trying to get political "credit" for acting early. But come next week Wales is going to be on a par, at best, with middle of the road English regions. So quite why they will be in a position to say a decisive "no" to a longer lockdown, as England enters one, isn't clear.

    Sturgeon also seems to be claiming that she might not need to follow England because "the signs are that transmission in Scotland is coming down". Well exactly the same is true in England on their published data. R number falling. Almost below 1 in the North West - the area with the harshest restrictions. Quite why we are publishing data in England when the scientists seems to dismiss everything it is saying in favour of their own models, who knows?
    Drakeford deserves a bit of credit for recognising the obvious a few weeks earlier than Boris (or Sturgeon...)

    I suspect the firebreak will have a big impact and will reduce infections substantially. Time will tell.

    Unless Drakeford has data to back him up we haven't seen, it's foolish to promise what he will do after the firebreak.
    And then what? We stay in those measures forever because as soon as they are relaxed we're back to where we are now in a few short weeks.
    If we can get cases down to the point where track, trace, isolate can cope, then we can control the epidemic and we won't need more lockdowns.

    In addition - more time gives us chance to improve TTI system, gets us closer to a vaccine and better treatments, AND prevents the inevitable Christmas increase in contacts from being quite so devastating.
    So the system magically fixes itself? If it was possible to do it then it would have happened by now.
    The system has a capacity it can handle and a capacity it cannot.

    If there was 1 covid case in the UK, I suspect even Dido Harding could manage to trace all of those contacts in 24 hours and get enough of them to isolate to keep R under 1.

    Presumably the continuing efforts to improve capacity are having some positive effect.

    So capacity is continually growing, unfortunately it is lagging the virus. Circuit break for 3 weeks could plausibly reduce cases by 40-50%.

    That *might* be enough to get things back under control.
    What a load of rubbish. It's the same system that had plenty of capacity in August and we ended up in this situation.

    Testing capacity isn't a problem, it's keeping the people who have the virus separate from those who don't. You like many others have completely misunderstood what the problem actually is. More of the same testing capacity won't change anything and we're going to be back where we are today within a couple of weeks at best, or more realistically nothing is actually going to change.
    Testing capacity is more than just numbers of tests.
    *The speed is key*. Turnaround time meets the 24 hour target in less than half of cases.
    That needs to be 100%. We don't currently have the capacity to do that.
    24hrs still too long, if you think you can test your way out of it. South Korea, they have automated AI system with works out who needs the tests, what order they need to do the tests, which type of test to book you in for, and they get results with a few hours. Again, not possible without huge technological infrastructure.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    edited October 2020

    That's how bad the government have handled things, that Piers Morgan is the voice of reason.
    PM for PM!!
    I wouldn't go that far.
    How about Patrick McGoohan? Presumably, he could keep the libertarians onside.
  • LadyG said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    No, you will need to return by Thursday midnight I beleive
    Didn't you just book a foreign holiday?
    Yes. To Kernow
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    One thing to get you through the winter.

    If you can make it, next year there will be elections. Locals, true, but just the same.

    IF you have the chance to vote, remember how you feel now. Remember Whitty and Vallance, Johnson and Starmer and that awful halloween.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    IshmaelZ said:

    LadyG said:

    What a monumentally dismal prospect we face

    Have you tried microdosing psychedelics? I absolutely would never recommend such a thing, but a friend of mine finds it the most effective way of tackling major depression he has encountered in 30 years of research. Or rather he thinks it might be, if only it were legal to give it a try.
    I have friends doing that who approve, likewise

    My secret tipple, apart from red wine and Plymouth gin, is cannabis tincture. I have quite a few bottles. Just a few drops at night are very relaxing.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    Not much sign of the Welsh case numbers stabilising from the specimen date data.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RP131/status/1322573030292393984
    Northern Ireland looking promising.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Utterly predictable we would end up in national lockdown. Boris has wasted weeks dithering and kidding himself all would be fine.

    Not sure Drakeford is wise either to promise what will happen post- firebreak.

    At some point politicians need to understand - the virus sets the timetable, not them.

    Yep Drakeford is trying to get political "credit" for acting early. But come next week Wales is going to be on a par, at best, with middle of the road English regions. So quite why they will be in a position to say a decisive "no" to a longer lockdown, as England enters one, isn't clear.

    Sturgeon also seems to be claiming that she might not need to follow England because "the signs are that transmission in Scotland is coming down". Well exactly the same is true in England on their published data. R number falling. Almost below 1 in the North West - the area with the harshest restrictions. Quite why we are publishing data in England when the scientists seems to dismiss everything it is saying in favour of their own models, who knows?
    Drakeford deserves a bit of credit for recognising the obvious a few weeks earlier than Boris (or Sturgeon...)

    I suspect the firebreak will have a big impact and will reduce infections substantially. Time will tell.

    Unless Drakeford has data to back him up we haven't seen, it's foolish to promise what he will do after the firebreak.
    And then what? We stay in those measures forever because as soon as they are relaxed we're back to where we are now in a few short weeks.
    If we can get cases down to the point where track, trace, isolate can cope, then we can control the epidemic and we won't need more lockdowns.

    In addition - more time gives us chance to improve TTI system, gets us closer to a vaccine and better treatments, AND prevents the inevitable Christmas increase in contacts from being quite so devastating.
    So the system magically fixes itself? If it was possible to do it then it would have happened by now.
    The system has a capacity it can handle and a capacity it cannot.

    If there was 1 covid case in the UK, I suspect even Dido Harding could manage to trace all of those contacts in 24 hours and get enough of them to isolate to keep R under 1.

    Presumably the continuing efforts to improve capacity are having some positive effect.

    So capacity is continually growing, unfortunately it is lagging the virus. Circuit break for 3 weeks could plausibly reduce cases by 40-50%.

    That *might* be enough to get things back under control.
    What a load of rubbish. It's the same system that had plenty of capacity in August and we ended up in this situation.

    Testing capacity isn't a problem, it's keeping the people who have the virus separate from those who don't. You like many others have completely misunderstood what the problem actually is. More of the same testing capacity won't change anything and we're going to be back where we are today within a couple of weeks at best, or more realistically nothing is actually going to change.
    Testing capacity is more than just numbers of tests.
    *The speed is key*. Turnaround time meets the 24 hour target in less than half of cases.
    That needs to be 100%. We don't currently have the capacity to do that.
    That isn't capacity related, though. It's structural. The turnaround time in the UK is bad because we have a centralised system requiring swabs to be collected from regional satellites to be processed at hub labs, that add 1-2 days of lag by itself. Capacity isn't the issue and tbh, our testing system is has basically turned into a very expensive monitoring system given that people who have the virus don't isolate it really makes no difference whether they know they have it or not.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,773
    MaxPB said:

    If I was in the Cabinet, the price of my support would be Dido being sacked and Hancock being sacked. Both of them have proved to be completely inadequate for this challenge.

    Dido Harding is so useless she was just meant to fail. (total setup)

    I'd radically disagree about Hancock. I think he's doing quite well.

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    London published numbers falling. But the published numbers can be safely ignored of course.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    MaxPB said:

    If I was in the Cabinet, the price of my support would be Dido being sacked and Hancock being sacked. Both of them have proved to be completely inadequate for this challenge.

    I would consider that a start.
    Cummings, Shapps, Williamson?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,592
    "Our leaders should admit they’re totally lost

    Britain isn’t suffering from lockdown fatigue, it has just lost faith in the cocksure claims of politicians and scientists

    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/our-leaders-should-admit-theyre-totally-lost-gtpjzkr9p
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    rkrkrk said:

    alex_ said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Utterly predictable we would end up in national lockdown. Boris has wasted weeks dithering and kidding himself all would be fine.

    Not sure Drakeford is wise either to promise what will happen post- firebreak.

    At some point politicians need to understand - the virus sets the timetable, not them.

    Yep Drakeford is trying to get political "credit" for acting early. But come next week Wales is going to be on a par, at best, with middle of the road English regions. So quite why they will be in a position to say a decisive "no" to a longer lockdown, as England enters one, isn't clear.

    Sturgeon also seems to be claiming that she might not need to follow England because "the signs are that transmission in Scotland is coming down". Well exactly the same is true in England on their published data. R number falling. Almost below 1 in the North West - the area with the harshest restrictions. Quite why we are publishing data in England when the scientists seems to dismiss everything it is saying in favour of their own models, who knows?
    Drakeford deserves a bit of credit for recognising the obvious a few weeks earlier than Boris (or Sturgeon...)

    I suspect the firebreak will have a big impact and will reduce infections substantially. Time will tell.

    Unless Drakeford has data to back him up we haven't seen, it's foolish to promise what he will do after the firebreak.
    And then what? We stay in those measures forever because as soon as they are relaxed we're back to where we are now in a few short weeks.
    If we can get cases down to the point where track, trace, isolate can cope, then we can control the epidemic and we won't need more lockdowns.

    In addition - more time gives us chance to improve TTI system, gets us closer to a vaccine and better treatments, AND prevents the inevitable Christmas increase in contacts from being quite so devastating.
    So the system magically fixes itself? If it was possible to do it then it would have happened by now.
    The system has a capacity it can handle and a capacity it cannot.

    If there was 1 covid case in the UK, I suspect even Dido Harding could manage to trace all of those contacts in 24 hours and get enough of them to isolate to keep R under 1.

    Presumably the continuing efforts to improve capacity are having some positive effect.

    So capacity is continually growing, unfortunately it is lagging the virus. Circuit break for 3 weeks could plausibly reduce cases by 40-50%.

    That *might* be enough to get things back under control.
    What a load of rubbish. It's the same system that had plenty of capacity in August and we ended up in this situation.

    Testing capacity isn't a problem, it's keeping the people who have the virus separate from those who don't. You like many others have completely misunderstood what the problem actually is. More of the same testing capacity won't change anything and we're going to be back where we are today within a couple of weeks at best, or more realistically nothing is actually going to change.
    Testing capacity is more than just numbers of tests.
    *The speed is key*. Turnaround time meets the 24 hour target in less than half of cases.
    That needs to be 100%. We don't currently have the capacity to do that.
    That isn't capacity related, though. It's structural. The turnaround time in the UK is bad because we have a centralised system requiring swabs to be collected from regional satellites to be processed at hub labs, that add 1-2 days of lag by itself. Capacity isn't the issue and tbh, our testing system is has basically turned into a very expensive monitoring system given that people who have the virus don't isolate it really makes no difference whether they know they have it or not.
    We have a system designed to test as many people as possible, rather than a system designed to reduce onward transmission of the virus. Wrong target, wrong outcome.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited October 2020
    Brave for Wales to say that the fire break is definitely going to be enough.....I of course know about lag etc, but the public (and most politicians don't seem to).

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Elq5KHrXYAAcbqv?format=png&name=large
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Sky’s Beth Rigby has also been given a briefing on what to expect.

    She said:

    I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

    The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355
    This is what happens when you surround yourself with weak lying toerags. Gove would always be number 1 suspect as the biggest lying back stabber of them all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Not much sign of the Welsh case numbers stabilising from the specimen date data.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RP131/status/1322573030292393984
    Northern Ireland looking promising.

    So does England as a whole but I'm very worried that this is a quirk of the testing system no longer picking up enough cases.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    alex_ said:

    London published numbers falling. But the published numbers can be safely ignored of course.

    What were the deaths today?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,773
    Andy_JS said:

    "Our leaders should admit they’re totally lost

    Britain isn’t suffering from lockdown fatigue, it has just lost faith in the cocksure claims of politicians and scientists

    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/our-leaders-should-admit-theyre-totally-lost-gtpjzkr9p

    Lost in the wind behind the paywall.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    I suppose it will take a while to see whether the death figures will follow the recorded case numbers.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RP131/status/1322576912577953794
  • IanB2 said:

    Sky’s Beth Rigby has also been given a briefing on what to expect.

    She said:

    I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

    The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.

    Realistically, we are going to be in this until Christmas.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    IanB2 said:

    Sky’s Beth Rigby has also been given a briefing on what to expect.

    She said:

    I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

    The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.

    That identical to the leak obtained by Peston, so that seems to be it. Here we go.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,355

    Come off it. This ISN'T a national lockdown - such a thing would be a disaster. No, it is simply an extension of the regional tier strategy. With a new tier added on top that we definitely didn't need. Applied in every region of the nation. With a travel ban to keep our country moving.
    Copying Scotland again just as predicted.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934

    IanB2 said:

    Sky’s Beth Rigby has also been given a briefing on what to expect.

    She said:

    I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

    The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.

    Realistically, we are going to be in this until Christmas.
    Except maybe the south west.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    To be fair some bright spark discovered dexamethasone helped the very ill.
    While the "Public policy" pandemic handling in the UK has been shambolic (at best) there has been some pretty impressive (dare one say "world beating") scientific work. Nowt to do with the government
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    I was just wondering, did anything happen while you were away? They do say a week is a long time in politics. Let's see... oh yes, Jeremy Corbyn was unceremoniously thrown out of the Labour Party...and CROSSOVER!

    So you didn't miss much.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Andy_JS said:

    "Our leaders should admit they’re totally lost

    Britain isn’t suffering from lockdown fatigue, it has just lost faith in the cocksure claims of politicians and scientists

    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/our-leaders-should-admit-theyre-totally-lost-gtpjzkr9p

    Nothing will happen until somebody new springs up to challenge the tories and labour.

    The only candidate right now is Farage and he has his head so far up Trump's backside he has no conception of what is going on
  • LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    No, you will need to return by Thursday midnight I beleive
    Didn't you just book a foreign holiday?
    I was joking. Even the Canaries require a negative test, and organising all that AND a flight and hotel by Wednesday will be tricky.

    I will just have to do this one alone with my newts. And several hundred bottles of Rioja Gran Reserva
    But what about the second week?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    IanB2 said:

    Sky’s Beth Rigby has also been given a briefing on what to expect.

    She said:

    I’ve been told that all of England is into tier four. It will mean that all pubs and restaurants have to close. All shops will close apart from non-essential retail, but as I understand it supermarkets will still be able to sell nonessential goods. There will be no mixing inside homes. In terms of what can continue: schools and universities and colleges all will remain open. Courts will remain open and parliament will remain open.

    The idea would be that while we all go into tier 4 for a period of a few weeks. Then we come out of it back into other [existing] tiering system. So different parts of the country will be released from this tier 4 at different periods depending on where they are with the virus.

    Realistically, we are going to be in this until Christmas.
    Christmas of which year?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    London published numbers falling. But the published numbers can be safely ignored of course.

    What were the deaths today?
    326
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    Just stay, the only thing is that everything will be shut despite the incidence rate in SW England basically being nothing.
    That is what I am hoping we can do. We came here to do nothing anyway, maybe a few long walks and some sea air.
    But I am pretty sure hotels will be told to enforce the law: this will be policed. And you are only allowed to stay overnight outside your home for work from Thursday on, No more holidays.

    Of course if you are in some self catering or, even better, a 2nd home you'll probably be fine. You will be breaking the rules but no one will check.
    Air bnb. We'll go if the owner asks us to, obvs. Let's see what the rules say.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited October 2020

    To be fair some bright spark discovered dexamethasone helped the very ill.
    While the "Public policy" pandemic handling in the UK has been shambolic (at best) there has been some pretty impressive (dare one say "world beating") scientific work. Nowt to do with the government
    Mixed bag. Fantastic scientific work on the health trials, but even then lets not forget Oxford vaccine gave the wrong dosages and have been overtaken due to better run Phase III trials from other organisations, and as for modelling....we have done that to death.

    I would give credit to the government for securing wide range of vaccine rights, quick off the mark to turbo charge the building of the production facility and being involved facilitating the health trials. Also, they have funded a number of different ways of reporting / surveying the virus.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MaxPB said:

    Not much sign of the Welsh case numbers stabilising from the specimen date data.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/RP131/status/1322573030292393984
    Northern Ireland looking promising.

    So does England as a whole but I'm very worried that this is a quirk of the testing system no longer picking up enough cases.
    The Positivity rate is 6.3% today, so it doesn't appear to be a major problem. Poor Liege in Belgium has a positivity rate of 41%!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    One thing to get you through the winter.

    If you can make it, next year there will be elections. Locals, true, but just the same.

    IF you have the chance to vote, remember how you feel now. Remember Whitty and Vallance, Johnson and Starmer and that awful halloween.

    I think we'll probably have all postal votes in May.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,773
    malcolmg said:

    Come off it. This ISN'T a national lockdown - such a thing would be a disaster. No, it is simply an extension of the regional tier strategy. With a new tier added on top that we definitely didn't need. Applied in every region of the nation. With a travel ban to keep our country moving.
    Copying Scotland again just as predicted.
    The dark ages motif sells.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    So it looks like our trip to Barnard Castle on Thursday will be off. Genuinely we were going there.

    Test your eyesjght will be fine
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    CNN - 90,035.811 early ballots cast. Approx 66% of the total 2016 vote.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Is this a massive problem 33.7m mail ballots outstanding?

    Total Early Votes: 90,012,433

    In-Person Votes: 32,663,560 •

    Mail Ballots Returned: 57,348,873 •

    Mail Ballots Outstanding: 33,680,976

    Nine states and DC automatically send out postal votes to all registered voters including some big ones. They are California, New Jersey, Vermont, Nevada, Colorado, Washington, Utah, Hawaii, and Oregon. So I'd assume all non-voters in these states would be in "mail ballots outstanding". It therefore doesn't strike me as a surprising figure (and of course some will still get there in time or be dropped off in person on the day).
    Thanks for that information. I was getting anxious about that figure but that puts my mind at rest.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682

    So it looks like our trip to Barnard Castle on Thursday will be off. Genuinely we were going there.

    Were you due to cut a SpecSavers ad ?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    Bookshops. Minefields of infection. All those crowds of people shouting.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,773
    Scott_xP said:
    Charlie Faulkner is still in post.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,592
    Omnium said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Our leaders should admit they’re totally lost

    Britain isn’t suffering from lockdown fatigue, it has just lost faith in the cocksure claims of politicians and scientists

    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/our-leaders-should-admit-theyre-totally-lost-gtpjzkr9p

    Lost in the wind behind the paywall.
    You can read a number of articles for free by registering. That's what I do.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Scott_xP said:
    Sunak has walked?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,551
    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    Very little. This is no sort of lockdown as long as 10 million people are moving and interacting every day in the education system. Sadly.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,100
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    I presume it is to minimize the reasons people would venture out. It is too easy when bored to say hey why not go to town and have a look at some clothes, which then involves a trip on the bus etc etc etc.

    However, I have to say, there are loads of things I would close before that e.g. leisure stuff like cinemas, trampoline parks.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    Bookshops. Minefields of infection. All those crowds of people shouting.
    They’ll be fine provided they stay away from trashy fiction.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,713
    alex_ said:

    London published numbers falling. But the published numbers can be safely ignored of course.

    A lot depends on the age range. If dropping in youths, but rising in the older generation, then quite compatible with a worsening epidemic. That was the pattern in a number of university cities in the North and Midlands.
  • LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    Bookshops. Minefields of infection. All those crowds of people shouting.
    Surely whilst the shops may be fine, the shoppers travelling by bus, tram, train, tube etc. are possible spreaders.

    It's like spectators at sporting events are unlikely to spread the virus at the event, much more so the travelling to and from the event.

    Shut those non-essential shops and you reduce dramatically social interaction on transport travelling to and from those shops.
  • Is this a massive problem 33.7m mail ballots outstanding?

    Total Early Votes: 90,012,433

    In-Person Votes: 32,663,560 •

    Mail Ballots Returned: 57,348,873 •

    Mail Ballots Outstanding: 33,680,976

    33 million voters thinking "Yeah, Trump is an asshat. But can I really vote for Biden...?"
    California sent a mail-in ballot to everyone in the state, which accounts for 12 million of that number.
    Note that as of a few days ago number of RETURNED ballots in CA was approx 8.5 million
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Taiwan, Complete victory over Corona

    No local cases for 202 days. GDP is growing. Life is basically normal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/hugs-sequins-and-rainbows-as-taiwan-enjoys-victory-over-virus
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,592
    edited October 2020
    Will swimming pools and gyms have to close? I get most of my exercise from swimming.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Scott_xP said:
    Sunak has walked?
    Kaboom?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    LadyG said:

    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    Bookshops. Minefields of infection. All those crowds of people shouting.
    Surely whilst the shops may be fine, the shoppers travelling by bus, tram, train, tube etc. are possible spreaders.

    It's like spectators at sporting events are unlikely to spread the virus at the event, much more so the travelling to and from the event.

    Shut those non-essential shops and you reduce dramatically social interaction on transport travelling to and from those shops.
    People are going to travel to the shops anyway. Just the essential ones. It's the only excuse to get out the house.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Andy_JS said:

    Will swimming pools and gyms have to close?

    For sure.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Or because the government are always so reactive, rather than proactive, they still haven't actually worked out what plans they want.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Omnium said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Charlie Faulkner is still in post.
    Richi?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:
    A U-turn, U -turn.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    alex_ said:

    Why shut "non essential shops". How much genuine transmission occurs in those?

    I presume it is to minimize the reasons people would venture out. It is too easy when bored to say hey why not go to town and have a look at some clothes, which then involves a trip on the bus etc etc etc.

    However, I have to say, there are loads of things I would close before that e.g. leisure stuff like cinemas, trampoline parks.
    They will all be closed as well. Everything is closing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    KABOOM
  • Scott_xP said:
    A U-turn, U -turn.
    630.

    Perhaps we will have tier 6.5 instead of tier 4.0?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    If I was in the Cabinet, the price of my support would be Dido being sacked and Hancock being sacked. Both of them have proved to be completely inadequate for this challenge.

    I would consider that a start.
    Cummings, Shapps, Williamson?
    Sacking Cummings would immeasurable improve governance. We can worry about other names once he has been escorted from the building.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Scott_xP said:
    A U-turn, U -turn.
    630.

    Perhaps we will have tier 6.5 instead of tier 4.0?
    Maybe they just realised the presser clashed with the England rugby match
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    alex_ said:

    London published numbers falling. But the published numbers can be safely ignored of course.

    I think you read too much into the headline numbers. They may be falling, but this may be, for example, because the large numbers of students testing positive are gradually falling out of the system, which you would expect by now - it has almost reached all the students who are going to get it, with the peak about a month ago.

    If the headline numbers are falling but the numbers for those who are middle-aged and above are still rising, there is a problem. I think that's where we are.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Jesus Christ. The leaks and now this. It's not the murderous incompetence that kills you, it's the sheer discourtesy.
    I'm assuming the Speaker is going to go ballistic on Monday as yet another massive announcement is made via twitter leak and press event rather than dispatch box.

  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Will swimming pools and gyms have to close?

    For sure.
    Imagine you are that Liverpool gym guy. All the fighting you did to keep your business open.

    arbitrarily shut down with a wave of a hand by a highly paid medical advisor with big salary and a huge pension. That you are trying to finance by keeping your business open and paying taxes.

    As I have said before, these people are not vassals, they are voters. When the time comes, do the politicians of today honestly think they are going to get these votes, or millions of others?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,223
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    So... On holiday in Cornwall this week. Will we have to come home before Thursday? Or can we stay until Saturday as planned and paid for?

    No, you will need to return by Thursday midnight I beleive
    Didn't you just book a foreign holiday?
    I was joking. Even the Canaries require a negative test, and organising all that AND a flight and hotel by Wednesday will be tricky.

    I will just have to do this one alone with my newts. And several hundred bottles of Rioja Gran Reserva
    Red Wine and Hard Right Twitter is a very combustible mix.
  • LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    A U-turn, U -turn.
    630.

    Perhaps we will have tier 6.5 instead of tier 4.0?
    Maybe they just realised the presser clashed with the England rugby match
    Yes Bozo probably prefers watching that than doing his job.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited October 2020
    algarkirk said:

    Does anyone else think that, sadly, without closing schools and education generally it is not a lock down? The (Peston) provisions are a national extension of Tier 3 with small additions. I wish I thought it could work, but the millions of daily movements and interactions involved in education generally are a critical factor.

    Given that the incidence of infection is greatest in secondary/university age cohort, yes.
    As published by government yesterday:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/30october2020#age-analysis-of-the-number-of-people-in-england-who-had-covid-19

    There’s a strong case for keeping primaries open - and I suspect the one for keeping universities open is entirely financial.
  • Scott_xP said:
    It's going to clash with Liverpool's match with the Spanners isn't it?

    Unless the Spanners are beating Liverpool.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Christ that was all-too-easy for England
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Arguing over how to lie to the British people
This discussion has been closed.