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WH2020: Key state turnout as percentage of votes cast – politicalbetting.com

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  • Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Is there any evidence the Welsh lockdown worked?
    Nobody can actually say yet if the Welsh lockdown "worked". Nor in fact whether the Tier system is "working". They haven't been in place long enough to feed into the data that the scientists are working with.

    All the data given to the Government in recent days basically predates the Tier system. When they say it isn't working that comes out of a belief that it wouldn't work that they stated 2-3 weeks ago. But it's not based on any new data. We do know that the official Govt "R" numbers are falling. But this inconvienient statistic is ignored.

    And as the Govt scientists control the data, they can make it say whatever they want.
    I am guessing that what has forced their hand is that SAGE produced a model of how the whole winter would pan out and that the data so far is exceeding this.
    What I am finding strange is that the number of reported cases is a small proportion of the "not a projection" chart, 10% according to @another_richard . Given that how can it be that the results are "worse" than the model? Does this mean that the model underestimated the level of hospitalisations by more than an order of magnitude? If so, how on earth can we have confidence in it?
    Sage were warning that the number of cases would be doubling every week, when the rate of increase is nothing like as rapid as that. The R number nationally has come down in the past week to 1.1. to 1.3. The introduction of Tier 2 in the North East and Tier 3 in Merseyside appears to be working as intended. The government is being panicked into taking a really damaging decision, on the basis that "something must be done."
    Was it Imperial College who claimed that infections were doubling in London every 3.3 days with an R of 2.86.

    For that to happen mask wearing and home working must have stopped plus Arsenal and Spurs playing to full crowds.
    Yes, the REACT 1 study, but with Confidence Intervals of 1.47 to 4.87, so may just be doubling every 7 days or so.
    But its not been doing that either.

    And, as usual, its the more extreme possibility which gets the headlines.
  • Scott_xP said:
    I have this funny feeling we are going to get a non-announcement. Cases not looking good, we urge people to stick to the rules, we are looking to take further action, we will announce detailed plan next week.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited October 2020
    HYUFD said:

    RIP Sir Sean Connery

    Just seen it. Sad. 90's a good age though, and IIRC he was pretty fit most of the time.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Second recount at Bury and Radcliffe - Trump ahead by 538 according to sources .... :sunglasses:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Scott_xP said:
    Do you think the hint is in the timing. 4pm means tier 4? I can read Boris like a book.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    HYUFD said:

    RIP Sir Sean Connery

    A fellow Scot and a great one. He had a good run, made it to 90 but a sad day indeed. For me still the best Bond (though Craig has been excellent too)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    I have this funny feeling we are going to get a non-announcement. Cases not looking good, we urge people to stick to the rules, we are looking to take further action, we will announce detailed plan next week.

    We can only dream that BoZo is as competent as Hugh Abbott...
  • Mal557 said:

    HYUFD said:

    RIP Sir Sean Connery

    A fellow Scot and a great one. He had a good run, made it to 90 but a sad day indeed. For me still the best Bond (though Craig has been excellent too)
    This is my favourite ever bond scene. I nearly died in the cinema laughing and struggling to breath when I saw it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE1evIbc3mw
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    National Tracker - USC Dornsife - B/C rated - 5343 LV - 17-30 Oct

    Biden 54 .. Trump 42

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    edited October 2020

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as bad at ignoring rules, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,874
    Scott_xP said:

    I have this funny feeling we are going to get a non-announcement. Cases not looking good, we urge people to stick to the rules, we are looking to take further action, we will announce detailed plan next week.

    We can only dream that BoZo is as competent as Hugh Abbott...
    BoZo is as competent as Diane Abbott.
  • Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    Calling a short notice press conference at 4pm on Saturday smacks a bit of panic. I suspect that today's data on cases or deaths, or more likely both, is awful and has pushed them into thinking that they can't wait till Monday.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Florida - Atlasintel - B/C rated - 788 LV - 28-29 Oct

    Biden 49 .. Trump 49

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/20201031_FL_AtlasIntel.pdf
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    Calling a short notice press conference at 4pm on Saturday smacks a bit of panic. I suspect that today's data on cases or deaths, or more likely both, is awful and has pushed them into thinking that they can't wait till Monday.

    Starmer demanding one will not have helped...
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507
    edited October 2020
    I'm looking at a betvictor market. Trump EV total. 200-249. 4/1.

    The minimum I think Biden is likely to get is 2016 plus Az, Mi, Wi and Pa. Which rather neatly takes Trump down to 249, just in the target window.

    The next two most likely to fall, according to the betting at least I think, are SC and Fl. If Biden takes both of these Trump is down to 205 but we're still in the money. Any more then we're sunk but i think Dems are 11/8 and bigger for those.

    My gut feeling is 4/1 is value but plenty of other permutations could see it win or lose so hard to be sure.

    Also, Betvictor's o/u handicap line is Trump +81.5 which falls almost exactly in the middle of the band.
  • As much as I loved Sir Sean Connery as James Bond, this is my absolute favourite scene featuring him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAM2Q7Sqlbk
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    RH1992 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    GNU the price for Starmer's support?
    He’d be mad to, and he isn’t mad. At the moment, he can put forward proposals knowing that if he’s proved right everyone will be awed by his prescience and if he’s wrong everyone will be worrying about something else. Win/win.

    And in any case, the price for a GNU should at the very least be Johnson’s job and Cummings’ prosecution, and Johnson will not agree to that.
    Yes. A great time to be in opposition.

    In the RoI, Sinn Fein have hit the jackpot -- with all 3 parties (Greens, FF and FG) tarred with the problems of governing.
    I know it's early and could be honeymoon period polling (although how this happens in a pandemic is beyond me), but Ireland seems to have bucked the trend of the junior partner always getting the flak. FG are well up on their GE performance and FF have nosedived, despite having the most seats and the Taoiseach. SF seem steady.
    Well, the Greens are the smaller partner, and there's a steady erosion of elected representatives leaving the Green Party, so it looks like they will suffer at the next election. FF and FG were even enough to be taking turns being Taoiseach, and at the moment it looks like it was a smart move from Varadker to let Martin go first and be in charge for the second wave.

    I would have thought that Varadker would suffer from going after the Chief Medical Officer, but I think the comparison with Martin is helping him. Martin is apparently well known as a ditherer from his previous time in government as a minister, and it is being shown again now.
  • I am trying to think of the worst possible plan, so i am ready for the announcement...a negotiable localized Tier 4 system....
  • Is he trying to impersonate Trump?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    I am trying to think of the worst possible plan, so i am ready for the announcement...a negotiable localized Tier 4 system....

    Tier 4 for all Westminster constituencies that elected Labour MPs.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Yes, I’ve been struck when I’ve been out seeing people of all ages meeting up and hugging each other. I think the problem was 1) (as noted below) the messaging over the summer that things were getting back to normal; and 2) the Cummins episode told people that it doesn’t really matter if you break the rules.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    A very considerable number of people in America believe that if everyone wore a mask & distancing was enforced, the virus would rapidly die out, without lockdowns.
  • Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Yes, I’ve been struck when I’ve been out seeing people of all ages meeting up and hugging each other. I think the problem was 1) (as noted below) the messaging over the summer that things were getting back to normal; and 2) the Cummins episode told people that it doesn’t really matter if you break the rules.
    There is definitely a weird belief that if you are outside you are safe to act normally.
  • Calling a short notice press conference at 4pm on Saturday smacks a bit of panic. I suspect that today's data on cases or deaths, or more likely both, is awful and has pushed them into thinking that they can't wait till Monday.

    Isn't it more the case that someone (I suspect from Sunak's side of the wall in Downing Street) leaked, and Johnson cannot afford damaging speculation over the weekend and a spooked financial market on Monday. That's what I suspect has forced Downing Street's hand.

    If it is Sunak, that's a dangerous game. He must feel very secure given his stock is high in the Conservative Party just now... but stocks can go down as well as up.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    How is that the remotest bit populist?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    More good polls for Biden today. He's looking very solid. In fact, not much has shifted throughout the campaign.

    It's entirely possible that the US may hit the psychologically horrible figure of 100,000 coronavirus cases a day by Tuesday - it's up to 94,000 today.

    I'm more confident on Florida than I am on Texas. As for PA, that's in the bag for Biden. Not even GOP shenanigans trying to discount postal ballots will help Trump and, by then, anyway I expect it to all be over. Biden will cross 270 before PA is required.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Calling a short notice press conference at 4pm on Saturday smacks a bit of panic. I suspect that today's data on cases or deaths, or more likely both, is awful and has pushed them into thinking that they can't wait till Monday.

    Isn't it more the case that someone (I suspect from Sunak's side of the wall in Downing Street) leaked, and Johnson cannot afford damaging speculation over the weekend and a spooked financial market on Monday. That's what I suspect has forced Downing Street's hand.

    If it is Sunak, that's a dangerous game. He must feel very secure given his stock is high in the Conservative Party just now... but stocks can go down as well as up.
    I guess it comes down to which of Johnson or Sunak you think is the biggest blundering idiot ever to have graced Downing Street. I know who my money is on.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 434
    https://labourlist.org/2020/10/exclusive-unions-release-joint-statement-on-labour-suspension-of-corbyn/

    Hmm, looks like kinabalu was right and I was wrong about the severity of the consequences of Corbyn's suspension.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited October 2020

    Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Yes, I’ve been struck when I’ve been out seeing people of all ages meeting up and hugging each other. I think the problem was 1) (as noted below) the messaging over the summer that things were getting back to normal; and 2) the Cummins episode told people that it doesn’t really matter if you break the rules.
    There is definitely a weird belief that if you are outside you are safe to act normally.
    Indeed.

    But not in Asia where they comprehend that a respiratory virus can still spread outdoors.

    People in this country are unbelievably ignorant [god I had to restrain how I put that] when it comes to this virus. Sorry. No other way to put it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    How would you feel if Boris Johnson used those words at 4pm today?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_xP said:

    HEY BOZO, THIS IS WHAT PROFESSIONAL POLITICS LOOKS LIKE...

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322501925682761728

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322502716191657984

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322503145298272256

    Imagine being a SNP politician who believes you need to get rid of Sturgeon just now.

    Absolute mentalists.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    Once again, nobody has explained what lockdown 2 is going to solve. We're run by a government of c***s. Absolutely fucking clueless and they're going to destroy what's left of the economy and we will be back where we are today a few weeks after it ends or in a more realistic scenario it doesn't end in 4 weeks, it ends in April because the government haven't got a clue.

    What it is presumably meant to solve is a crisis in the NHS once again as the number of hospitalisations increases sharply and wards get close to capacity. For me, this is something that lockdowns are justified for, as an emergency break when we are being overwhelmed. Looking at the charts from yesterday that must be imminent.

    The government is trying to mitigate economic damage within that parameter. Acknowledging that further restrictions are likely or inevitable causes damage of itself and depresses activity. I am not at all surprised or even disappointed that Ministers say that they have no plans to do things until they have to. I don't really see an alternative.

    This is all enormously frustrating and difficult but I think your criticism of the government is way overdone.
    The government has had months to solve the actual problem of people who have the virus interacting with people who don't. It has done nothing to solve it and believes the only way to prevent that is with a lockdown, either local or national. The government has had months to build a testing and tracking system that can seek out the virus, yet we're still waiting for people to become symptomatic and book a test. We're still allowing people to self certify their isolation and quarantine.

    The government has had enough time to resolve these issues and honestly, I don't give a fuck about how European countries have also failed. We shouldn't be aiming to be just as bad as everyone else.
    I think that you are being a bit ridiculous. The government threw billions at a track and trace system for the reasons you described. It doesn't work. It doesn't work for a variety of reasons. Off the top of my head these include our reluctance to allow ourselves to be adequately traced, the very bad advice the government got from the scientists about the need for testing to be pretty much 100% accurate before it was any good, the complexity and uncertainty of what is needed for infection to occur (is sitting on a bus for 10 mins enough, sitting 2 tables away in a cafe, etc etc), an increasing disregard for the rules with far more house parties and groupings than in the first wave which are far more likely to be indoors as the weather has changed, I could go on all day.

    Your criticism seems to imply that there is an easy or even difficult solution here that the government is wilfully ignoring. There isn't. There just isn't. So we need to muddle along as well as we can and pray for a vaccine. In that muddle many of the short term tactical decisions can be criticised, too late, too early, to severe, not severe enough but the reality is that we cannot operate as a society with this virus in our community anywhere like we did before without huge numbers of deaths and a complete crisis in the NHS. That is where we are and swearing at the government really doesn't change a thing.
    Biggest reason it did not work David is the Tory graft and chicanery of giving it all to their thick greedy grasping chums. The only thing they managed to do well was line their own pockets to a great amount. A worse bunch of crooks have yet to be seen, they make the Mafia look like amateurs.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited October 2020
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    It’s both vacuous nonsense, and a great sound bite. I wouldn’t criticise him at all for it. At least, it isn’t wilfully offensive.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    Its playing to a large group of Americans who believe that masks & a bit of distancing will stop COVID. Plus some honesty in reporting/The White House. Closing down the economy not required.
  • Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Slightly different calculation for OAPs. Certainly their risk of dying is higher if they get COVID. But they also have fewer years left anyway. There are some older people who simply think it isn't worth cowering inside for a year in order to enhance their chances of eeking out another five years in the late autumn of their life.

    There are also older people who are very set in their ways. The only people who've tried to shake my hand since March have been pensioners and I'm fairly sure that's been forgetfulness/habit of a lifetime rather than simply being cavalier.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210

    Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Maybe you feel you've had your three score years and ten and prefer to take the risk and enjoy life, rather than spend a year or two locked in. Once you reach a certain age you presumably accept you could pop your clogs at any time.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Agreed
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Except...

    Dominic Cummings, addressing staff gathered in “mission control” on Tuesday morning, was blunt about the motivation behind Downing Street’s new outpost in the heart of the Cabinet Office.

    The response to the Covid-19 crisis had too often been a “shitshow”, he said. This new unit would try to put an end to any “miscommunication” between the political and administrative arms of government.
    I don’t know what’s weirdest about Cummings - his bizarre imagination, his total inability to understand anything more complex than how much a ten pound note is worth or his utter lack of self awareness.
    The weirdest thing about Dominic Cummings is whether or not he wears glasses. Even cartoonists are divided on this crucial point.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Apologies for the wrong data. The US has indeed just set a world record for daily infections: 100,233 cases.

    Horrendous timing for Trump, who continues to mock people for wearing masks.
  • Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HEY BOZO, THIS IS WHAT PROFESSIONAL POLITICS LOOKS LIKE...

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322501925682761728

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322502716191657984

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322503145298272256

    Imagine being a SNP politician who believes you need to get rid of Sturgeon just now.

    Absolute mentalists.
    Alex Salmond = Tory sleeper agent.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    JACK_W said:
    That's about where I expect the final % to be , perhaps a fraction more for each.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Where is Philip when you need him for reassurance.

    Recalled to CCHQ for reprogramming
  • A very considerable number of people in America believe that if everyone wore a mask & distancing was enforced, the virus would rapidly die out, without lockdowns.
    Isn't that what Europe has mostly been doing in the last few months?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357

    I am trying to think of the worst possible plan, so i am ready for the announcement...a negotiable localized Tier 4 system....

    ...with no MP involvement.

    And no new money.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Alistair said:

    Imagine being a SNP politician who believes you need to get rid of Sturgeon just now.

    Absolute mentalists.

    It's a comparative analysis.

    Just cos Nippy makes BoZo look like the clown he is, that doesn't mean Wee Eck might not be even better... (If you're into that sort of thing)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    IshmaelZ said:

    It really doesn't make any difference, though. If we ignore the Sweden bores, and discount the US because Trump, and a handful of inscrutable nations waaay East of Suez of which we know little, that leaves close on 200 governments earnestly wondering whether rigid straight lines, or more informal clusters, are the way to go deckchair-wise. To look no further, the failure of Drakeford and Sturgeon to outperform gives Johnson a fig leaf the size of a cricket square.

    Pray tell how Sturgeon has failed, mistakes early on , far from perfect but doing a good job and Stellar results compared to England.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,357
    edited October 2020

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    It’s both vacuous nonsense, and a great sound bite. I wouldn’t criticise him at all for it. At least, it isn’t wilfully offensive.
    It also means Biden is going to have wretched numbers very early in his Presidency, when Nothing Much Changes on the Covid numbers...
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662

    As much as I loved Sir Sean Connery as James Bond, this is my absolute favourite scene featuring him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAM2Q7Sqlbk

    His role in the Untouchables is often forgotten, he , Costner and De Niro were all fantastic in what was a cracking film.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Apologies for the wrong data. The US has indeed just set a world record for daily infections: 100,233 cases.

    Horrendous timing for Trump, who continues to mock people for wearing masks.

    Slightly more than that, I think. Not great timing for Trumpy-pumpy.

    https://twitter.com/Breaking24Seven/status/1322505994757431307?s=20
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Calling a short notice press conference at 4pm on Saturday smacks a bit of panic. I suspect that today's data on cases or deaths, or more likely both, is awful and has pushed them into thinking that they can't wait till Monday.

    Isn't it more the case that someone (I suspect from Sunak's side of the wall in Downing Street) leaked, and Johnson cannot afford damaging speculation over the weekend and a spooked financial market on Monday. That's what I suspect has forced Downing Street's hand.

    If it is Sunak, that's a dangerous game. He must feel very secure given his stock is high in the Conservative Party just now... but stocks can go down as well as up.
    There are the panic merchants ... apparently led by Imperial, No. 10 and the BBC ... and there are the others

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/30/covid-19-rates-not-surging-reveals-kings-college-research/
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The problem with all the modelling/forecasting is that fundamentally you are almost inevitably going to be wrong, but you still have to try.

    Like tipping the winner for the National.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    National Tracker - IBD/TIPP - A/B rated - 1047 LV - 26/30 Oct

    Biden 50 .. Trump 44
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
    Thing is. He can get away with it. Why?
    Because most of the USA hasn't really properly tried to suppress the virus.
    So, that it is a trade off is not immediately apparent.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    Calling a short notice press conference at 4pm on Saturday smacks a bit of panic. I suspect that today's data on cases or deaths, or more likely both, is awful and has pushed them into thinking that they can't wait till Monday.

    Isn't it more the case that someone (I suspect from Sunak's side of the wall in Downing Street) leaked, and Johnson cannot afford damaging speculation over the weekend and a spooked financial market on Monday. That's what I suspect has forced Downing Street's hand.

    If it is Sunak, that's a dangerous game. He must feel very secure given his stock is high in the Conservative Party just now... but stocks can go down as well as up.
    I guess it comes down to which of Johnson or Sunak you think is the biggest blundering idiot ever to have graced Downing Street. I know who my money is on.
    I agree it could be Johnson, but there's a clear motive for Sunak as his Treasury have been particularly strongly opposed to a further lockdown for economic reasons, and this may well have been the best way to force Johnson's hand if, as seems likely, his plan was to present as a fait accompli on Monday. This way, the media and Tory MPs may scare him off it before it's too late (from Sunak's perspective).

    The others who knew appear to be Hancock (too weedy and no particular motive), and Gove (has form but motive unclear).
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662

    A very considerable number of people in America believe that if everyone wore a mask & distancing was enforced, the virus would rapidly die out, without lockdowns.
    I'd me happier voting for someone who says 'Im going to shut down the virus' as opposed to ' We have beaten the Virus already' 100.000 cases geez.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
    What makes it populist is that he is posing as the man with a simple solution that will avoid the need to address those trade odds, and the implied denigration of experts who think otherwise.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Tony Benn wearing a yellow rosette.

    Seems strange today, but Labour used to use different colours in different parts of the country back then.
  • OT re James Bond & Goldfinger (1964) -- it is easy to forget that lasers were new then.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Is Scotland performing better than England? It would be reassuring to me if it were, as I will soon be returning to Scotland after eight months in Ireland.

    Deaths seem like the most reliable measure, as case numbers will depend on testing rates. Taking the seven day period centred on 23rd October, we get these figures.

    Scotland - 116 deaths - 2.1 deaths per 100k
    England - 1220 deaths - 2.2 deaths per 100k

    The Scottish figure is certainly lower than the English figure, but not by enough to signify any practical difference. For the sake of completeness, these are the figures for Northern Ireland and Wales

    Wales - 89 deaths - 2.8 deaths per 100k
    Northern Ireland - 43 deaths - 2.3 deaths per 100k

    It is, perhaps, not surprising that Drakeford imposed his "firebreak" before the rest of the UK.

    Not sure where you get your numbers but if I look at yesterday , the best region in England had as many cases as whole of Scotland, rate overall was about 18 times that of Scotland and deaths over 9 times. Unless you are going to Lanarkshire you will be miles safer in Scotland.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Missouri - Remington Research - C- rated - 1010 LV - 26/29 Oct

    Biden 45 .. Trump 50
  • dixiedean said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
    Thing is. He can get away with it. Why?
    Because most of the USA hasn't really properly tried to suppress the virus.
    So, that it is a trade off is not immediately apparent.
    I will generally forgive a bit of glibness on Twitter as the form doesn't lend itself to nuanced debate.

    And I'll concede that evidence-based policy making, consistency, and leading by example are in themselves relatively low cost ideas that haven't really been deployed at all by the White House over the past four years.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662

    I'm looking at a betvictor market. Trump EV total. 200-249. 4/1.

    The minimum I think Biden is likely to get is 2016 plus Az, Mi, Wi and Pa. Which rather neatly takes Trump down to 249, just in the target window.

    The next two most likely to fall, according to the betting at least I think, are SC and Fl. If Biden takes both of these Trump is down to 205 but we're still in the money. Any more then we're sunk but i think Dems are 11/8 and bigger for those.

    My gut feeling is 4/1 is value but plenty of other permutations could see it win or lose so hard to be sure.

    Also, Betvictor's o/u handicap line is Trump +81.5 which falls almost exactly in the middle of the band.

    I think you may have meant NC and FL, not SC, despite how well Bidens doing nationally he has no chance in SC, NC is certainly a swing state similar to FL. I actually think he has more chance in NC than FL so the 4/1 with the 4 you listed plus SC sounds a fair bet
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    A very considerable number of people in America believe that if everyone wore a mask & distancing was enforced, the virus would rapidly die out, without lockdowns.
    Isn't that what Europe has mostly been doing in the last few months?
    Yes - but, remember, in America you've had Donald Fucking Trump sneering at masks and recommending bleach.

    Just wearing masks and staying 2m apart seems doable, sensible and 1000x better.

    When you add in the economic precariousness for people - lose your job *and* your healthcare - well, nearly no one wants lockdowns.

    Yes, it is not enough.

  • Slightly different calculation for OAPs. Certainly their risk of dying is higher if they get COVID. But they also have fewer years left anyway. There are some older people who simply think it isn't worth cowering inside for a year in order to enhance their chances of eeking out another five years in the late autumn of their life.

    There are also older people who are very set in their ways. The only people who've tried to shake my hand since March have been pensioners and I'm fairly sure that's been forgetfulness/habit of a lifetime rather than simply being cavalier.

    Foxy said:

    Ratters said:

    The government's fatal flaw - seen across much of Europe - has been propagating for too long the message that things could return to normal with minimal change to behaviour. "Eat out in restaurants, not takeaway", "go back to the office to help Pret", "save the travel industry", "back to normal by Christmas". It was all incredibly short sighted and has now backfired.

    It is this, combined with an inadequate track and trace system back when case numbers were more manageable, which has resulted in the lockdown we are facing.

    100%...I think it comes down to the behavioural insight people continuing saying thar people won't stick to restrictions for more than a few weeks, so the messaging has always been please just stick with this for a month, then it will be good. Do lockdown, you can have you summer hols. Stick to Tiers, you can have Christmas. We will have a vaccine in September, October, Christmas, Spring...

    In reality, the Swedish message from the start has been the honest one. We are stukck with this for at least 2 years, we need a new normal and you will have to learn to live with these restrictions throughout.
    I think its impossible to make the young stick to restrictions now they know they're not at risk.
    In my experience plenty of older folk who are most definitely at risk are just as badat ignoring things, and it is only a significant minority of youngsters acting like covidiots.
    There's no shortage of oldies who seem to be on a suicide mission.
    Maybe you feel you've had your three score years and ten and prefer to take the risk and enjoy life, rather than spend a year or two locked in. Once you reach a certain age you presumably accept you could pop your clogs at any time.
    Fair enough.

    But we cannot trash the economy and the future of the young in order to minimise the risks of said oldies dying.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    Mal557 said:

    I'm looking at a betvictor market. Trump EV total. 200-249. 4/1.

    The minimum I think Biden is likely to get is 2016 plus Az, Mi, Wi and Pa. Which rather neatly takes Trump down to 249, just in the target window.

    The next two most likely to fall, according to the betting at least I think, are SC and Fl. If Biden takes both of these Trump is down to 205 but we're still in the money. Any more then we're sunk but i think Dems are 11/8 and bigger for those.

    My gut feeling is 4/1 is value but plenty of other permutations could see it win or lose so hard to be sure.

    Also, Betvictor's o/u handicap line is Trump +81.5 which falls almost exactly in the middle of the band.

    I think you may have meant NC and FL, not SC, despite how well Bidens doing nationally he has no chance in SC, NC is certainly a swing state similar to FL. I actually think he has more chance in NC than FL so the 4/1 with the 4 you listed plus SC sounds a fair bet
    Now im getting it wrong i meant with NC ofc :)
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 434
    MaxPB said:

    Once again, nobody has explained what lockdown 2 is going to solve. We're run by a government of c***s. Absolutely fucking clueless and they're going to destroy what's left of the economy and we will be back where we are today a few weeks after it ends or in a more realistic scenario it doesn't end in 4 weeks, it ends in April because the government haven't got a clue.

    We all know what "lockdown 2" is going to solve, just as we all knew what a circuit-breaker would have solved. Implying that it's hard to understand sounds a bit like the blinkered Tories on here who were pretending that circuit-breakers were a bad idea because they weren't a permanent solution, when the real reason they objected to the idea was because Starmer supported it.

    The government has certainly made plenty of mistakes, some of which are understandable because of the scale of the crisis, but others which a competent government would not have made. However, we are where we are and if they introduce much tougher measures than are currently in place, they are doing the right thing.

    That said, I do hope they finally recognise that enabling people to plan ahead on this (e.g. 4 week lockdown now; expect another one on Nth January) will do far less harm than unpredictably bouncing in and out of lockdown, or near-lockdown.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
    Isn't it populist in the sense of "Quote me happy, not realistic" politics?
  • Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HEY BOZO, THIS IS WHAT PROFESSIONAL POLITICS LOOKS LIKE...

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322501925682761728

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322502716191657984

    witter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1322503145298272256

    Imagine being a SNP politician who believes you need to get rid of Sturgeon just now.

    Absolute mentalists.
    Alex Salmond = Tory sleeper agent.
    But put in place when the Tories were a Unionist party. Whole new Politburo now...
  • Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.

    Got to give everybody opportunity for one last big few days on the lash...would be unfair not to.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.

    Got to give everybody opportunity for one last big few days on the lash...would be unfair not to.
    So Monday?

    I have some plans Tuesday so I'm asking for selfish reasons :lol:
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.

    Got to give everybody opportunity for one last big few days on the lash...would be unfair not to.
    Interesting that they’ve allowed Halloween to happen (well, sort of). But they want to get us locked in before 5 November.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.

    Got to give everybody opportunity for one last big few days on the lash...would be unfair not to.
    So Monday?

    I have some plans Tuesday so I'm asking for selfish reasons :lol:
    Early night, then up at midnight for a PB Zoom election night with popcorn?

    B)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    kicorse said:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/10/exclusive-unions-release-joint-statement-on-labour-suspension-of-corbyn/

    Hmm, looks like kinabalu was right and I was wrong about the severity of the consequences of Corbyn's suspension.

    Handbags at dawn by the looks of things
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    In space news, SpaceX is offering to take on the space debris problem.

    https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/10/27/spacex-executive-pitches-starship-for-space-debris-cleanup/

    Gwynne Shotwell: "... it’s quite possible that we could leverage Starship to go to some of these dead rocket bodies — other people’s rocket’s, of course — basically pick up some of this junk in outer space.”

    An instructional video of the proposed system is available here -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ftN0zqHtn0
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.

    With these halfwits it could be anywhere between now and Christmas. Depends how long it takes them to work out how they and their pals can profit from a shutdown.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Not sure if my neighbours are getting into Halloween or just self-isolating.


  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    Mal557 said:

    A very considerable number of people in America believe that if everyone wore a mask & distancing was enforced, the virus would rapidly die out, without lockdowns.
    I'd me happier voting for someone who says 'Im going to shut down the virus' as opposed to ' We have beaten the Virus already' 100.000 cases geez.
    That's the same as 20,000 in the UK
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Foxy said:

    Has anyone picked up when the lockdown is likely to begin? Assuming that's the announcement at 4pm.

    'As early as next week' is vague. Monday? Tuesday? etc.

    Got to give everybody opportunity for one last big few days on the lash...would be unfair not to.
    So Monday?

    I have some plans Tuesday so I'm asking for selfish reasons :lol:
    Early night, then up at midnight for a PB Zoom election night with popcorn?

    B)
    :smiley:
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
    What makes it populist is that he is posing as the man with a simple solution that will avoid the need to address those trade odds, and the implied denigration of experts who think otherwise.
    It's basically a semantic debate and if that's your definition of populism then fine - I don't own the word.

    But I don't really agree that's what populism is normally meant as being in political discussion, which is framing the debate up as People vs Elites.

    What Biden is actually doing there is trying to defuse Trump's own populist rhetoric on the subject, which posits that Biden will side with Elitist pointy heads and shut down the People's freedoms/lose them their jobs. It may be doing so in a way that glosses over the difficulty of "shutting down the virus" without some of that problem (i.e. Trump massively exaggerates but there is a kernel of truth in his point). But it isn't "populist" in itself.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Mal557 said:

    A very considerable number of people in America believe that if everyone wore a mask & distancing was enforced, the virus would rapidly die out, without lockdowns.
    I'd me happier voting for someone who says 'Im going to shut down the virus' as opposed to ' We have beaten the Virus already' 100.000 cases geez.
    That's the same as 20,000 in the UK
    And, erm 3,000 in Belgium...
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited October 2020
    EDIT: This turned out to be wrong when I checked.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    Imagine being a SNP politician who believes you need to get rid of Sturgeon just now.

    Absolute mentalists.

    It's a comparative analysis.

    Just cos Nippy makes BoZo look like the clown he is, that doesn't mean Wee Eck might not be even better... (If you're into that sort of thing)
    Miles better for sure, at least Alex would want independence.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    kicorse said:

    MaxPB said:

    Once again, nobody has explained what lockdown 2 is going to solve. We're run by a government of c***s. Absolutely fucking clueless and they're going to destroy what's left of the economy and we will be back where we are today a few weeks after it ends or in a more realistic scenario it doesn't end in 4 weeks, it ends in April because the government haven't got a clue.

    We all know what "lockdown 2" is going to solve, just as we all knew what a circuit-breaker would have solved. Implying that it's hard to understand sounds a bit like the blinkered Tories on here who were pretending that circuit-breakers were a bad idea because they weren't a permanent solution, when the real reason they objected to the idea was because Starmer supported it.

    The government has certainly made plenty of mistakes, some of which are understandable because of the scale of the crisis, but others which a competent government would not have made. However, we are where we are and if they introduce much tougher measures than are currently in place, they are doing the right thing.

    That said, I do hope they finally recognise that enabling people to plan ahead on this (e.g. 4 week lockdown now; expect another one on Nth January) will do far less harm than unpredictably bouncing in and out of lockdown, or near-lockdown.
    This is what I'm expecting , a lockdown until start of December , allow Xmas to be as 'normal' as is possible, perhaps in a kind of Tier 2 level of restrictions, then most likely another lockdown in the New Year (unless my some great fortune R is consistently back under 1 somehow) Until we get a vaccine we are going to have this kind of messy mix of things, trying to balance health against the economy again.

    The difference this time will be schools and colleges will stay open unless things get much much worse, though perhaps a longer Xmas break of maybe 3 weeks is possible I guess as opposed to the usual 2.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Afternoon all :)

    Out and about in East Ham High Street this morning - not so much pre-Lockdown as pre-Rainstorm. Mask wearing about 60% and widespread non-compliance in shops and supermarkets.

    Many shops have the Track & Trace QR on their doors yet nobody formally "Checks In" so that makes the Track & Trace app useless. It's not the technology but the unwillingness of the public to use it.

    Back in August I said that if we got a second lockdown, the public would have no one to blame but themselves and I'm still of that view. Yes, we can have a pop or two at the Prime Minister and the Government but the overwhelming message for me of the last 3-4 months is as soon as any kind of "approval" was given for a return to a pre-Covid lifestyle, a significant minority took it.

    Guidelines, regulations, laws - call them whatever you like, if no one is willing to enforce them they are just a waste of space and that's the problem. As any liberal authoritarian will know, if you're not going to enforce a law you have to rely on consent and if those who won't consent know they will get away with it that's made the law not only an ass but a complete rear end.

    That's the thing - there are societies and countries where either through fear or through motivated self and communal interest, most laws are obeyed, most guidelines are followed, most restrictions are enforced either within society itself or in extremis via a suitably present authority.

    It doesn't seem to be the case in other countries where, one assumes, a more individualist or less community-focused culture exists. I was at the tube station this morning - the gates were open, no staff present. In a few minutes, I observed twenty people pass in and out of the gates - 12 tapped in, 8 did not. That's eight people "enjoying" free travel and eight lots of fee income missed by Transport for London. Oddly enough, mask wearing was being better observed.

    I've seen it when TfL and British Transport Police are doing fare checks - they reap a rich harvest of evaders but at a time when TfL is complaining about a drop in income, there seems no action being taken to get that to which they are entitled.

    Yet I don't believe in the need for an armed police officer on every street corner to enforce the law - we shouldn't need it. Why do people, mostly young men, choose to evade paying their fares? Those I saw didn't seem short of cash if the phone or the clothes were any guide so it can only be a conscious decision based on what's important for them and what they value - individuality, personal vanity rather than wider community values.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    JACK_W said:

    Missouri - Remington Research - C- rated - 1010 LV - 26/29 Oct

    Biden 45 .. Trump 50

    Good lord, Trump won Missouri by nearly 20 in 2016.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    How is that the remotest bit populist?
    I agree - it's a misunderstanding of the word "populism".

    It's rather glib - how are you going to "shut down the virus" without restrictions on freedom and economic consequences, Joe? But it isn't "populist" in the ordinary meaning of the word as it relates to politics.
    Isn't it populist in the sense of "Quote me happy, not realistic" politics?
    It's semantic, but "populist" generally means framing as Elite vs People.

    Simply offering to do things you can't in practice achieve, or that will have hidden bad consequences, in order to appeal to voters is reprehensible, but isn't really what is meant by the term when used by political scientists etc.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    The point about the (worsening) case numbers etc in USA isn't as a direct indication of whether Trump has done a good job or not. It is that he is wandering around the country telling everyone that the pandemic is effectively 'over' and nothing to worry about any more.

    The other point about the US is that people misrepresent how Trump has failed in response to the virus. In many ways he has little direct influence over how to combat the pandemic. The primary response comes from state governors. Those who point that out are not wrong. However, what is true is that at every stage he has undermined state efforts and contradicted the advice that he scientists are trying to send out. Where he should be leading, pushing best practice, and encouraging States to work together and learn from each other, he has... not.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    kicorse said:

    https://labourlist.org/2020/10/exclusive-unions-release-joint-statement-on-labour-suspension-of-corbyn/

    Hmm, looks like kinabalu was right and I was wrong about the severity of the consequences of Corbyn's suspension.

    Even the NUM are in the mix. Aren't they so powerful as to bring down the Heath Government...oh wait that was nearly 47 years ago.

    Starmer should stand firm. McCluskey has already stated he wouldn't support Labour under Starmer before Corbyn was shown the door, so Starmer should show McCluskey where he can find the exit too.

    What this shows to me is that none of the signatories to the letter have the first clue, as to what the ECHR concluded. They too are in denial, chuck them all out!
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 682
    Virginia - Roanoke College - B/C rated - 802 LV - 23/29 Oct

    Biden 53 .. Trump 42

    https://www.roanoke.edu/about/news/rc_poll_politics_poll_oct31
  • Mal557 said:

    JACK_W said:

    Missouri - Remington Research - C- rated - 1010 LV - 26/29 Oct

    Biden 45 .. Trump 50

    Good lord, Trump won Missouri by nearly 20 in 2016.
    That's very double-edged for Biden supporters. He doesn't want to be piling up votes uselessly in Red States he isn't going to win.
This discussion has been closed.