Something is still supporting that Trump price at around 3. I thought he'd be tracking towards 4 by now but no. Lots of punters must think either the polls are badly wrong or that he can turn this thing around somehow.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
I spend a few days away on a research project and when I get tired and log on what do I find? Yet again, this year, it's even some of the southern Tories who are standing up for democracy in Scotland! The indy debate really has changed ...
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Oh dear, I had begun to like some of your posts, and thought that maybe I had you wrong. This latest one really marks you out for the nationalistic dullard I originally thought you were. Those of us that think Brexit is a pile of shit and Boris Johnson is an even greater pillock than you are going nowhere. We love our country, and quite of few of us have served our country in various ways. We just think that such a wonderful place with a great history shouldn't be left to the lowest political denominator that is represented by anyone who could write the petty minded divisive bollox that you vomited up above. If you don't like people that have different views to you, or those who might express loyalties beyond the nation state then I recommend you are the person that fucks off to North Korea or other such armpit of the world where you can focus on groupthink and worshipping a leader in the way you think others should do so. Twat.
It's quite simple. If you detest the UK, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
That's not being rude. It's just a lifestyle choice that logically follows - why wouldn't you go somewhere else? I'm British and 100% loyal to Britain and the flag and will never go anywhere else. I'd be the last to leave.
On your broader point, you do have me wrong. You get reflexively insulting when the matter of Brexit comes up - a bit like how MalcolmG does over Scottish independence - so I don't take any of it personally. It's water off a duck's back.
You are clearly a very grumpy and angry old man, though.
I might kindly advise a bit of therapy?
Casino for one second please take a deep breath and repeat your opening question replacing EU with UK.
If in 2015 or before you detested the EU, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
People who live here lived in the EU until then every bit as much as they lived in Britain. People voting to change where they live is what we have democracy for. Better to settle our differences with ballots rather than bullets.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Oh dear, I had begun to like some of your posts, and thought that maybe I had you wrong. This latest one really marks you out for the nationalistic dullard I originally thought you were. Those of us that think Brexit is a pile of shit and Boris Johnson is an even greater pillock than you are going nowhere. We love our country, and quite of few of us have served our country in various ways. We just think that such a wonderful place with a great history shouldn't be left to the lowest political denominator that is represented by anyone who could write the petty minded divisive bollox that you vomited up above. If you don't like people that have different views to you, or those who might express loyalties beyond the nation state then I recommend you are the person that fucks off to North Korea or other such armpit of the world where you can focus on groupthink and worshipping a leader in the way you think others should do so. Twat.
It's quite simple. If you detest the UK, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
That's not being rude. It's just a lifestyle choice that logically follows - why wouldn't you go somewhere else? I'm British and 100% loyal to Britain and the flag and will never go anywhere else. I'd be the last to leave.
On your broader point, you do have me wrong. You get reflexively insulting when the matter of Brexit comes up - a bit like how MalcolmG does over Scottish independence - so I don't take any of it personally. It's water off a duck's back.
You are clearly a very grumpy and angry old man, though.
I might kindly advise a bit of therapy?
Same reason I didn't leave between 1997 and 2010, I still believe there's a country worth fighting for and I'm willing to play a small part in trying to change it for the better.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
The people of Scotland elected a government that pledged "that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will"
Whether Scotland needs England to allow it to be independent is a matter of debate. Norway has said it would recognise and admit to the EEA a self-declared independent Scotland, and there is the UN Charter declaring the right of people to self-determination. It would be messy, undemocratic and only ensure fracturing of the Union to ignore even the right for the Scottish people to consider independence, given the manifesto of the Scottish government.
So what, Holyrood and the Scottish government are just creations of Westminster, Madrid even shut the Catalan Parliament down for months and arrested leaders of the Catalan nationalist government when it tried to hold an illegal indyref. Legally Boris and Westminster could shut Holyrood down, more likely they just refuse indyref2 but under our constitution Westminster is sovereign and whatever the majority party at Westminster says goes
You are losing your grip
You have not mentioned the tanks and military entering the fiefdom
Yes; I was wondering about Bannockburn.
I would wonder about where the UK's boomer submarines are going. It is hard to find somewhere as good as Faslane in England.
There was talk at one time, IIRC, about Milford Haven, aka Aberdaugleddau. Although shifting them there might give a lift to the PC vote.
Can someone advise me which bit of "Aberdaugleddau" is a translation of Milf?
Aberdaugleddau means the mouth of the Cleddau. Milford Haven is derived from the Viking.
I live a few miles up the road and there was talk of subs coming here and generally it was welcomed.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
Right then, better get to CostCo to stock up for the No-Deal Brexit shortages...
We stocked up a while back for the second wave and no deal.
Glad I live in a big house.
In all honesty, still working through the first stock up and with Amazon Prime Day just been, a massive lorry of new crap is apparently on the way (according to be constant pinging on my phone and every time I go to see what Mrs U is up to, it appears to be 20 different Amazon tabs open her computer).
Italy 7332 new cases, what’s making this virus run away In many countries despite all the efforts to contain it
People are sick of living half lives. Despite whatever the polls say about support for lockdown I think the polling suffers from the phenomenon of the rules being for everyone else.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
If you aspire to the status of mindreader, rather than caricaturist, you need to discover a little empathy in yourself.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
I spend a few days away on a research project and when I get tired and log on what do I find? Yet again, this year, it's even some of the southern Tories who are standing up for democracy in Scotland! The indy debate really has changed ...
I have lived with the debate most of my 76 years
The polling is excellent for the SNP at present but there is a lot of water to flow along the 'Spey' before this is resolved
"If you wished to create a prime minister to make Scottish independence more popular, you could hardly create a more perfect monster than Johnson.
...
. Many of them would still vote no, but with markedly less enthusiasm than before; others suggest they are too depressed to vote at all; some find themselves surprised, and perhaps even a little alarmed, to discover they can imagine voting yes. Some have already changed their mind, deciding getting out is the only realistic way forward. These are company directors, farmers, lawyers, academics and if Boris Johnson is losing people like this — folk with plenty to lose from independence — then you may imagine how he’s faring with other kinds of voter.
... For this is a three-legged crisis for Unionism. Covid is one leg and Johnson is another but the third, and most significant, leg is Brexit. It cannot be repeated too frequently that Brexit is the sole reason this argument has substance right now. No Brexit, no material change in circumstances that might justify revisiting the national question while the embers of 2014 still glow. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP would still campaign for independence but they wouldn’t have any good argument for demanding a second referendum. Well, however disagreeable you may think it, they have a decent one now. (It remains decent even if you also think 'once in a generation' should mean something too.) "?
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
The only questions on this that remain are will the u-turn be next week or the following week, and what glorious optimistic sunny name can Cummings & Johnson come up with to pretend their proposal is their own and not the SAGE/Starmer one.
As I just said, it's superficial. Lockdown is for everyone else, just like self isolation. If you polled people on whether they think people should self isolate if they test positive you'd get near 100% of people saying yes, and yet only 20% of people actually do it.
A 2 week circuit breaker is still a bloody stupid idea.
2 weeks will do nothing. If you're going to circuit break then do it properly, do it for a month. At least that will do something. 2 weeks is nothing, all the economic damage and no health advantage. Worst idea of all.
Liverpool politicians announce 'local furlough' scheme to top up 'inadequate' Government payments as Andy Burnham rejects Tier 3 lockdown and backs Keir Starmer's nationwide circuit breaker
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
Blair was very voteable-for. I know it's incredible now. There was a slight blindness to his brilliance at the time. He managed to blind us a bit to Brown's somewhat poor activities for example.
I can't imagine voting Labour though, and Big G's upcoming border duty seems a just punishment.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
You could say the same about people on the island of Ireland still being Irish, even if they were on the UK side of the partition line, but that doesn't stop a lot of people being unhappy about the partition of that island.
Why would we look at the precedent of putting in a border on a moderately-sized island and think that it was a remotely good idea?
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
I spend a few days away on a research project and when I get tired and log on what do I find? Yet again, this year, it's even some of the southern Tories who are standing up for democracy in Scotland! The indy debate really has changed ...
I have lived with the debate most of my 76 years
The polling is excellent for the SNP at present but there is a lot of water to flow along the 'Spey' before this is resolved
Quite so. But the Spey flows in one direction - it's not like standing on the bridge over Cuan Sound.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
I have never voted for the winning party. 😎
2005 was the only time I didn't (nationally, locally I've often lost).
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
More like six months. And then another six while the vaccine 'beds in'
Economy?
15% smaller than before covid pretty much permanently.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
Hmm. I`m going to ponder on this further. I`ve enjoyed this thread because I`ve never understood how someone can attach identity to a political project rather than an entity with national borders and democracy within. Voting to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons - I can understand that - I`m in their number - but voting remain for emotional reasons I don`t get at all because we are still European.
I don't feel much of a European identity. I feel British and English in about equal measure, perhaps English slightly stronger. Nevertheless my Remain vote was more than pragmatism. There was emotion there too because I strongly approve of the EU as a project. For all its flaws I see it as an essentially noble undertaking. A binding together of the continent with certain common enlightened values, cooperation in lieu of aggressive nationalism, outward looking not insular, a bulwark against political extremism, just generally a vast improvement on what went before and what imo is the alternative now. You may say I'm a dreamer - and perhaps I'm the only one - but that's in all honesty how I felt about it. I would have voted Remain even if I knew it would make us poorer.
One thing I can agree with you on here: this "no-one voted to be poorer" argument is an awful one.
Cash calculations aren't the only factor in people's political decision-making. However, they often *are* for many centrist liberals (who care about little else so long as their consensus isn't up-ended).
Given they keep making this argument it's possible the strongest show of how disconnected their worldview is from the bulk of the populace.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
Interesting. Is it because 2010 was the first time you could confidently vote negatively, against Gordon Brown?
Right then, better get to CostCo to stock up for the No-Deal Brexit shortages...
We stocked up a while back for the second wave and no deal.
Glad I live in a big house.
In all honesty, still working through the first stock up and with Amazon Prime Day just been, a massive lorry of new crap is apparently on the way (according to be constant pinging on my phone and every time I go to see what Mrs U is up to, it appears to be 20 different Amazon tabs open her computer).
If I didn't know better, your wife sounds like my father.
I regret letting him have access to my Amazon account.
I look forward to HYUFD being dispatched north of the Border to campaign for remain. He personally will generate a further 2% switch to leave.
I have already made a contribution to Scottish Conservative funds, I have no plans to personally go up as yet as will be busy with local elections here next May as branch chairman
Something is still supporting that Trump price at around 3. I thought he'd be tracking towards 4 by now but no. Lots of punters must think either the polls are badly wrong or that he can turn this thing around somehow.
Good spot by TimT (I think) of RCP summary of swing stakes which compared Biden's position now with Clinton 2016. They're in virtualy identical positions.
That isn't the end of the argument of course but there are punters who will look at that, look at the odds, and back the outsider.
Something is still supporting that Trump price at around 3. I thought he'd be tracking towards 4 by now but no. Lots of punters must think either the polls are badly wrong or that he can turn this thing around somehow.
I tend to agree with you - the fundamentals don't support the price. But I guess their reasoning is simply that relatively few punters have got rich betting against Trump, or populists in general, over the past few years... and that's clearly true.
But Burnham backs a complete lockdown as long as it's called a circuit break?
Burnham wants to circuit break the whole of England no matter the levels of covid
Plus he wants 80% furlough for everyone and self employed reimbursement of earnings
Politician doesn't want to see his own area singled out for restrictions on movement, and politician wants money for his people that he isn't responsible for raising from them.
Can anybody answer the question of why closing businesses in the South West, where there is no Covid, helps save lives in the North West, where there are a lot of positive tests?
Are Labour suggesting doing so because there are few Labour seats in the SW?
If we want to keep the Welsh out, just keep releasing sheep into Wales, that'll keep the Welsh occupied.
baaah
Sheep shagging keeps us very happy.
I prefer mint sauce! For some reason it's only the Doric northeast of Scotland that attracts the slur hereabouts, though there are plenty of woollybacks on the hills behind me.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
Independence will never be allowed under a Conservative Government so it is not an issue, if a future Labour government granted an indyref and Yes won then the Tory policy would still be not to give in to the SNP by taking as tough a line with them in independence negotiations as possible
Why would you want to take a tough line against people you consider to be your fellow countrymen?
If Scotland voted for independence Scots would no longer be by fellow countrymen, they would be foreigners of no more emotional connection to me than the French (in fact less as some of my ancestors were Huguenots and I have no Scottish blood).
And the same goes for Scottish Tories?
They would be a separate party in that instance, no different to the Australian Liberal and National Party or the New Zealand Nationals or the Canadian Conservatives or Fine Gael in Ireland ie a sister party of the Tories but not part of the same party anymore
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
Indeed, that's one reason we shouldn't be reacting to today's numbers.
The next step should be taken in 3 weeks (from yesterday) when we'll get the first signs of how effective the Tiering of England has been.
A 2 week circuit breaker is still a bloody stupid idea.
2 weeks will do nothing. If you're going to circuit break then do it properly, do it for a month. At least that will do something. 2 weeks is nothing, all the economic damage and no health advantage. Worst idea of all.
Chris Green was asked about this and about the postbag that prompted him to quit. He said his constituency response was nothing like the polls and he had very few objections to his stance.
Right then, better get to CostCo to stock up for the No-Deal Brexit shortages...
We stocked up a while back for the second wave and no deal.
Glad I live in a big house.
In all honesty, still working through the first stock up and with Amazon Prime Day just been, a massive lorry of new crap is apparently on the way (according to be constant pinging on my phone and every time I go to see what Mrs U is up to, it appears to be 20 different Amazon tabs open her computer).
If I didn't know better, your wife sounds like my father.
I regret letting him have access to my Amazon account.
Wow, that's how I sold the false beard on my Amazon merchant account for 10k! I wondered about the insistence on the 'Mrs' in the address.
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
Indeed, that's one reason we shouldn't be reacting to today's numbers.
The next step should be taken in 3 weeks (from yesterday) when we'll get the first signs of how effective the Tiering of England has been.
Not before.
Hasn't it already been declared a failure, days before the restrictions were actually implemented?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
If you aspire to the status of mindreader, rather than caricaturist, you need to discover a little empathy in yourself.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
Interesting. Is it because 2010 was the first time you could confidently vote negatively against Gordon Brown?
I've always been right wing, but put what I think is best for the country over party politics.
2001 I disliked William Hague and thought the Tories were not ready for Government. I also felt New Labour wasn't doing a bad job, so voted for them so the Tories would remain in opposition and sort themselves out.
2005 I still felt the Tories were not ready for Government, but I felt that Brown was trashing the economy (something he wasn't in 2001) so I voted Tory because Labour was worse, but I was not enthusiastic for the Tories.
2010 Labour absolutely had to go and Cameron's Tories were ready for Government. I was for the first time happy with my vote, as I was in 2015 and 2019.
2017 I disliked May but Corbyn was far worse, so despite having quit the party I still voted Tory. No enthusiasm for May though.
I look forward to HYUFD being dispatched north of the Border to campaign for remain. He personally will generate a further 2% switch to leave.
He might get the Imperial March played at him - as with his fellow British natrionalist MPs despatched to Glasgow in 2014 to lecture the natives on the glories of the Henrician settlement, sorry the British empire.
Italy 7332 new cases, what’s making this virus run away In many countries despite all the efforts to contain it
People are sick of living half lives. Despite whatever the polls say about support for lockdown I think the polling suffers from the phenomenon of the rules being for everyone else.
It's IMBY polling.
In my back yard (only) polling - trust myself and no-one else.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
Independence will never be allowed under a Conservative Government so it is not an issue, if a future Labour government granted an indyref and Yes won then the Tory policy would still be not to give in to the SNP by taking as tough a line with them in independence negotiations as possible
Why would you want to take a tough line against people you consider to be your fellow countrymen?
If Scotland voted for independence Scots would no longer be by fellow countrymen, they would be foreigners of no more emotional connection to me than the French (in fact less as some of my ancestors were Huguenots and I have no Scottish blood).
The only possible connection would be the monarchy but if that went too zero. I like visiting the Republic of Ireland occasionally but do not consider the Irish my fellow countrymen
So why are you bothered about “keeping Scotland” if you don’t care about them whatsoever?
As we are stronger as one united Kingdom on the world stage and a hard border is best avoided
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
Indeed, that's one reason we shouldn't be reacting to today's numbers.
The next step should be taken in 3 weeks (from yesterday) when we'll get the first signs of how effective the Tiering of England has been.
Not before.
The North East has been in “Tier 2” for a month already.
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
Indeed, that's one reason we shouldn't be reacting to today's numbers.
The next step should be taken in 3 weeks (from yesterday) when we'll get the first signs of how effective the Tiering of England has been.
Not before.
Seems obvious to me that Boris introduced the Tiers because he had been told todays numbers would be similar to what has been announced. So why should he change his strategy because Starmer wants to lock up everyone, rather than just those in relatively more danger?
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
I respect the SNP.
I loathe anyone who thinks its acceptable to use the military or police to suppress voters in a free society.
Yes, well you are not a Tory anyway nor even a Unionist so no wonder you respect the SNP
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
I have never voted for the winning party. 😎
2005 was the only time I didn't (nationally, locally I've often lost).
I've voted at every GE since 1959, and (I think) every local election. At GE's I've only voted for a winning candidate once and only on two more occasions for the winning party. My Local record isn't much better, although I did manage to vote for a winner at the last one.
I look forward to HYUFD being dispatched north of the Border to campaign for remain. He personally will generate a further 2% switch to leave.
I have already made a contribution to Scottish Conservative funds, I have no plans to personally go up as yet as will be busy with local elections here next May as branch chairman
For a bunch of people whom you consider you have no affinity with? Only if England retains its imperial domination? I must say however you are showing a very healthy disregard for the usual blood and race rhetoric one gets from british nationalists such as Mr Cameron in 2014 (I am not heing ironic, it is an unusual reaction from an English Tory).
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
I feel like you’re massively projecting here.
Err, nope.
Your argument might have more salience had I not conceded the subtle trade-offs with Brexit, acknowledged the risks and downsides, and argued vociferously for Theresa May's deal, but that's probably a bit too complicated for you.
@williamglenn by contrast thinks every 'event' (no matter what it is) proves the case for Ever Closer Union, which is also the answer to every conceivable policy question. He also likes to pose weird hypotheticals in which he tries to steer people to answer in a way that he thinks will support his case too.
Almost 20,000 o_O. Not great when wednesday is higher than tuesday
It's still a slowing down of the case growth rate. My eye spies an 11 day doubling time, maybe just under that, last week it was just under 9 days. We're not very far from equilibrium and the new tier system has just come into place.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
I feel like you’re massively projecting here.
Err, nope.
Your argument might have more salience had I not conceded the subtle trade-offs with Brexit, acknowledged the risks and downsides, and argued vociferously for Theresa May's deal, but that's probably a bit too complicated for you.
@williamglenn by contrast thinks every 'event' (no matter what it is) proves the case for Ever Closer Union, which is also the answer to every conceivable policy question. He also likes to pose weird hypotheticals in which he tries to steer people to answer in a way that he thinks will support his case too.
That's the mark of the fanatic.
No, the mark of a fanatic is getting unreasonably triggered by an emoji.
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
I think there's a case to be made for doing the first, but I don't see the political or societal will to make the sacrifices involved. I personally would plump for something along the lines of the 2nd given where we are. The government seem to be a bit lost, and going for the middle ground.
The problem with 2 is that the economy won't survive OK and life won't return to normality for most if large numbers of people are dying. In addition to it being extremely inhumane, of course.
The reason it keeps coming up is that while it's a mirage, it appeals to the "For God's sake, let's just get it over with!" impulse within our brains.
We want there to be a straightforward choice, even if it would cost. A or B, which is it? Make a choice!
If it turns out not to be a straightforward A or B where we can weigh them up and make a choice to get it over with - we don't like it. That's why it keeps coming up.
- The economy and public health are inextricably linked. It's not one or the other. It's always both, and every approach will fuck both up to one degree or another, and it's not a seesaw. - If restrictions aren't legally applied, they'll be unofficially applied. It happens everywhere. It just means that more deaths are incurred. - Herd immunity ain't coming without a vaccine. If Manaus didn't get there, even with "let it rip" and burying so many thousands of their (primarily young) population, nowhere's getting there through the virus. - Follow that route, and as well as extra deaths, the economy will very likely get screwed even worse.
There's no good route out without a vaccine. Or ubiquitous near-instant testing.
You're absolutely right. I think the strand of anti-lockdown commentary which argues we are being too blanket risk averse, or that the restrictions should be more "trust the people" a la Sweden, is respectable (albeit wrong), but the more extreme stuff, which is a lot of it, is simply howling at the moon.
I get it, there's no straightforward choice, only trade-offs. A middle ground between health, the economy, and civil liberties has to be found.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what the government's strategy for dealing with the pandemic is, since it's been around for going on 9 months now. I sketched out two potential strategies, and Nigel added a third.
I guess I should have added the default option of continuing with the current set of restrictions indefinitely. Maybe it's sustainable, and preferable to the other ones - I honestly don't know.
I used to think it was controlling infections via lockdown until a vaccine turned up. Johnston stood up in the commons the other day and said there may never be one. I realise the current lot are pretty damn rubbish at the whole running the country thing, but really, is some sort of articulated plan too much to ask?
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
Independence will never be allowed under a Conservative Government so it is not an issue, if a future Labour government granted an indyref and Yes won then the Tory policy would still be not to give in to the SNP by taking as tough a line with them in independence negotiations as possible
Why would you want to take a tough line against people you consider to be your fellow countrymen?
If Scotland voted for independence Scots would no longer be by fellow countrymen, they would be foreigners of no more emotional connection to me than the French (in fact less as some of my ancestors were Huguenots and I have no Scottish blood).
And the same goes for Scottish Tories?
They would be a separate party in that instance, no different to the Australian Liberal and National Party or the New Zealand Nationals or the Canadian Conservatives or Fine Gael in Ireland ie a sister party of the Tories but not part of the same party anymore
Are you saying Fine Gael were at one time part of the Conservative & Unionist Party?
The Heath Government did suspend Stormont in Spring 1972 when it decided to impose Direct Rule - despite fierce Loyalist opposition. Were the SNP to declare UDI, I could see Westminster going down that road - but have no expectation that Sturgeon would be that stupid.
Yes if Sturgeon did declare UDI after Boris refused a legal indyref2 until another generation had passed since 2014 that would be the only circumstance in which Westminster would temporarily likely vote to impose direct rule on Scotland as Madrid imposed direct rule on Catalonia after the Catalan nationalist government voted to declare UDI in 2017
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Oh dear, I had begun to like some of your posts, and thought that maybe I had you wrong. This latest one really marks you out for the nationalistic dullard I originally thought you were. Those of us that think Brexit is a pile of shit and Boris Johnson is an even greater pillock than you are going nowhere. We love our country, and quite of few of us have served our country in various ways. We just think that such a wonderful place with a great history shouldn't be left to the lowest political denominator that is represented by anyone who could write the petty minded divisive bollox that you vomited up above. If you don't like people that have different views to you, or those who might express loyalties beyond the nation state then I recommend you are the person that fucks off to North Korea or other such armpit of the world where you can focus on groupthink and worshipping a leader in the way you think others should do so. Twat.
It's quite simple. If you detest the UK, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
That's not being rude. It's just a lifestyle choice that logically follows - why wouldn't you go somewhere else? I'm British and 100% loyal to Britain and the flag and will never go anywhere else. I'd be the last to leave.
On your broader point, you do have me wrong. You get reflexively insulting when the matter of Brexit comes up - a bit like how MalcolmG does over Scottish independence - so I don't take any of it personally. It's water off a duck's back.
You are clearly a very grumpy and angry old man, though.
I might kindly advise a bit of therapy?
Same reason I didn't leave between 1997 and 2010, I still believe there's a country worth fighting for and I'm willing to play a small part in trying to change it for the better.
Which is the mark of a true patriot..
If I ever hear those sentiments (and I didn't from the poster concerned) then I will applaud them, even if I don't personally agree with the politics.
However, to just slag off Britain, insult it, and then profess loyalty to a foreign state instead. Well, there's another word for that..
Almost 20,000 o_O. Not great when wednesday is higher than tuesday
It's still a slowing down of the case growth rate. My eye spies an 11 day doubling time, maybe just under that, last week it was just under 9 days. We're not very far from equilibrium and the new tier system has just come into place.
Absolutely 100% agreed. And the Freshers Flu (Covid19 edition) effect will burn out soon.
Almost 20,000 o_O. Not great when wednesday is higher than tuesday
It's still a slowing down of the case growth rate. My eye spies an 11 day doubling time, maybe just under that, last week it was just under 9 days. We're not very far from equilibrium and the new tier system has just come into place.
Stop repeating this nonsense. The North East has been in “Tier 2” for a month already. We already have the data on whether Tier 2 is sufficient, although clearly not Tier 3.
I don’t know the answer to that question, but the data is there.
If we do have a "circuit breaker", it won't be for 2 weeks...more like 2 months. It will take at least a month for drop in case numbers to start to show up, and then the call will always be for lets just wait and see for a few more weeks, just to be sure.
Indeed, that's one reason we shouldn't be reacting to today's numbers.
The next step should be taken in 3 weeks (from yesterday) when we'll get the first signs of how effective the Tiering of England has been.
Not before.
Seems obvious to me that Boris introduced the Tiers because he had been told todays numbers would be similar to what has been announced. So why should he change his strategy because Starmer wants to lock up everyone, rather than just those in relatively more danger?
Because his government is government by media and opinion poll - where they lead we follow.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
I spend a few days away on a research project and when I get tired and log on what do I find? Yet again, this year, it's even some of the southern Tories who are standing up for democracy in Scotland! The indy debate really has changed ...
BigG is neither southern, he lives in Wales, nor a staunch Tory, he voted for Blair twice
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Oh dear, I had begun to like some of your posts, and thought that maybe I had you wrong. This latest one really marks you out for the nationalistic dullard I originally thought you were. Those of us that think Brexit is a pile of shit and Boris Johnson is an even greater pillock than you are going nowhere. We love our country, and quite of few of us have served our country in various ways. We just think that such a wonderful place with a great history shouldn't be left to the lowest political denominator that is represented by anyone who could write the petty minded divisive bollox that you vomited up above. If you don't like people that have different views to you, or those who might express loyalties beyond the nation state then I recommend you are the person that fucks off to North Korea or other such armpit of the world where you can focus on groupthink and worshipping a leader in the way you think others should do so. Twat.
It's quite simple. If you detest the UK, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
That's not being rude. It's just a lifestyle choice that logically follows - why wouldn't you go somewhere else? I'm British and 100% loyal to Britain and the flag and will never go anywhere else. I'd be the last to leave.
On your broader point, you do have me wrong. You get reflexively insulting when the matter of Brexit comes up - a bit like how MalcolmG does over Scottish independence - so I don't take any of it personally. It's water off a duck's back.
You are clearly a very grumpy and angry old man, though.
I might kindly advise a bit of therapy?
Casino for one second please take a deep breath and repeat your opening question replacing EU with UK.
If in 2015 or before you detested the EU, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
People who live here lived in the EU until then every bit as much as they lived in Britain. People voting to change where they live is what we have democracy for. Better to settle our differences with ballots rather than bullets.
The EU isn't our nation, so the comparison is moot.
I agree it's better to settle our differences with ballots. That isn't even in question.
Almost 20,000 o_O. Not great when wednesday is higher than tuesday
It's still a slowing down of the case growth rate. My eye spies an 11 day doubling time, maybe just under that, last week it was just under 9 days. We're not very far from equilibrium and the new tier system has just come into place.
Stop repeating this nonsense. The North East has been in “Tier 2” for a month already. We already have the data on whether Tier 2 is sufficient, although clearly not Tier 3.
I don’t know the answer to that question, but the data is there.
What makes you think a month is long enough to know already?
Especially when that month coincides with the outbreak of Covid Freshers Flu.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
Independence will never be allowed under a Conservative Government so it is not an issue, if a future Labour government granted an indyref and Yes won then the Tory policy would still be not to give in to the SNP by taking as tough a line with them in independence negotiations as possible
Why would you want to take a tough line against people you consider to be your fellow countrymen?
If Scotland voted for independence Scots would no longer be by fellow countrymen, they would be foreigners of no more emotional connection to me than the French (in fact less as some of my ancestors were Huguenots and I have no Scottish blood).
And the same goes for Scottish Tories?
They would be a separate party in that instance, no different to the Australian Liberal and National Party or the New Zealand Nationals or the Canadian Conservatives or Fine Gael in Ireland ie a sister party of the Tories but not part of the same party anymore
Are you saying Fine Gael were at one time part of the Conservative & Unionist Party?
No but they are the main centre right party in the Republic of Ireland now
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Oh dear, I had begun to like some of your posts, and thought that maybe I had you wrong. This latest one really marks you out for the nationalistic dullard I originally thought you were. Those of us that think Brexit is a pile of shit and Boris Johnson is an even greater pillock than you are going nowhere. We love our country, and quite of few of us have served our country in various ways. We just think that such a wonderful place with a great history shouldn't be left to the lowest political denominator that is represented by anyone who could write the petty minded divisive bollox that you vomited up above. If you don't like people that have different views to you, or those who might express loyalties beyond the nation state then I recommend you are the person that fucks off to North Korea or other such armpit of the world where you can focus on groupthink and worshipping a leader in the way you think others should do so. Twat.
It's quite simple. If you detest the UK, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
That's not being rude. It's just a lifestyle choice that logically follows - why wouldn't you go somewhere else? I'm British and 100% loyal to Britain and the flag and will never go anywhere else. I'd be the last to leave.
On your broader point, you do have me wrong. You get reflexively insulting when the matter of Brexit comes up - a bit like how MalcolmG does over Scottish independence - so I don't take any of it personally. It's water off a duck's back.
You are clearly a very grumpy and angry old man, though.
I might kindly advise a bit of therapy?
Casino for one second please take a deep breath and repeat your opening question replacing EU with UK.
If in 2015 or before you detested the EU, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
People who live here lived in the EU until then every bit as much as they lived in Britain. People voting to change where they live is what we have democracy for. Better to settle our differences with ballots rather than bullets.
The EU isn't our nation, so the comparison is moot.
I agree it's better to settle our differences with ballots. That isn't even in question.
Until January we were in the EU.
What you consider your nation is up to you. I consider it to be England, some say Britain - and a cultish minority considered it to be the EU.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
You really are clinging to this aren't you. The Govt has already abandoned manifesto commitments ...... on support for farmers for example ........ and if you're relying on our PM"s word......... I have a bridge in which you might be interested.
It is not just Boris, Hunt too said he would block indyref2 if he run the Tory leadership and became PM last year. The Tory majority of 80 will thus vote down permission for indyref2 whoever is PM and the PM's authority to grant indyref2 comes only from Parliament. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47484518
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
You mean Peterborouigh, as Mr Gove memorably put it once.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
I feel like you’re massively projecting here.
Err, nope.
Your argument might have more salience had I not conceded the subtle trade-offs with Brexit, acknowledged the risks and downsides, and argued vociferously for Theresa May's deal, but that's probably a bit too complicated for you.
@williamglenn by contrast thinks every 'event' (no matter what it is) proves the case for Ever Closer Union, which is also the answer to every conceivable policy question. He also likes to pose weird hypotheticals in which he tries to steer people to answer in a way that he thinks will support his case too.
That's the mark of the fanatic.
No, the mark of a fanatic is getting unreasonably triggered by an emoji.
I've basically concluded you're an idiot.
Yes, you're an idiot. Incapable of engaging in any argument that you find yourself at odds with other than to troll or provoke.
Henceforth, like 'Mango', I shall simply ignore all of your valueless and moronic posts and derive you of the oxygen of attention on which your fragile sense of worth so clearly depends.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
Interesting. Is it because 2010 was the first time you could confidently vote negatively against Gordon Brown?
I've always been right wing, but put what I think is best for the country over party politics.
2001 I disliked William Hague and thought the Tories were not ready for Government. I also felt New Labour wasn't doing a bad job, so voted for them so the Tories would remain in opposition and sort themselves out.
2005 I still felt the Tories were not ready for Government, but I felt that Brown was trashing the economy (something he wasn't in 2001) so I voted Tory because Labour was worse, but I was not enthusiastic for the Tories.
2010 Labour absolutely had to go and Cameron's Tories were ready for Government. I was for the first time happy with my vote, as I was in 2015 and 2019.
2017 I disliked May but Corbyn was far worse, so despite having quit the party I still voted Tory. No enthusiasm for May though.
If you voted Labour in 2001 when 32% of British voters still voted Tory you are not really rightwing as those 32% are rightwing, centre right liberal at most
I look forward to HYUFD being dispatched north of the Border to campaign for remain. He personally will generate a further 2% switch to leave.
I have already made a contribution to Scottish Conservative funds, I have no plans to personally go up as yet as will be busy with local elections here next May as branch chairman
For a bunch of people whom you consider you have no affinity with? Only if England retains its imperial domination? I must say however you are showing a very healthy disregard for the usual blood and race rhetoric one gets from british nationalists such as Mr Cameron in 2014 (I am not heing ironic, it is an unusual reaction from an English Tory).
The difference between myself and Cameron is he does have Scottish blood, hence his surname and his father was born in Aberdeenshire, so he will always have blood ties to Scotland, I have no blood ties to Scotland and my only ties to Scotland come through the Union and the Crown
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
Interesting. Is it because 2010 was the first time you could confidently vote negatively, against Gordon Brown?
My first vote was in the general election of 1966. I voted Labour for the first and only time. Joan Lestor in Eton and Slough. I lived in Slough.
Landslide for Wilson. I then tried to join the Labour Party but they wouldn't have me because I didn't belong to a union. I joined the Liberals instead.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
Odd way to spin it. Brexit was identified up front as being a risk to the Union. If the risk now crystallizes it's hardly the fault of those who flagged it. The fault is with those who ignored the warning or did not believe it. You support both Brexit and the Union. In fact I sense you are more attached to the Union than to Brexit. Therefore when you voted Leave you must have asked yourself the question "Will this jeopardize the Union?" and reached the answer "No, not really." So you called it wrong, it seems, and I sense some denial and some guilt about that. And you won't be alone in this. It applies to every Leaver who is also a strong Unionist.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
Odd way to spin it. Brexit was identified up front as being a risk to the Union. If the risk now crystallizes it's hardly the fault of those who flagged it. The fault is with those who ignored the warning or did not believe it. You support both Brexit and the Union. In fact I sense you are more attached to the Union than to Brexit. Therefore when you voted Leave you must have asked yourself the question "Will this jeopardize the Union?" and reached the answer "No, not really." So you called it wrong, it seems, and I sense some denial and some guilt about that. And you won't be alone in this. It applies to every Leaver who is also a strong Unionist.
@Casino_Royale is the kind of person that Cameron was trying to appeal to when he said "Brits don't quit" towards the end of the campaign, but by then they held Cameron in contempt.
Something is still supporting that Trump price at around 3. I thought he'd be tracking towards 4 by now but no. Lots of punters must think either the polls are badly wrong or that he can turn this thing around somehow.
I tend to agree with you - the fundamentals don't support the price. But I guess their reasoning is simply that relatively few punters have got rich betting against Trump, or populists in general, over the past few years... and that's clearly true.
That's not true actually, various populists have been routinely too short in the betting the last few years. France, Netherlands, Austria...
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
There may be differences within the Tory Party over the format of Brexit, over Cummings or the extent of Covid restrictions but one thing that unites all us Tories from Peterhead to Bournemouth is a loathing of the SNP and we will never give into them!!
So after independence, the policy of the Conservatives will be to reconstitute the union and they will put that in their manifestos on both sides of the border?
I can understand people disliking their opponents political philosophy, but 'loathing' seems a strong word. Why take that view; seems counter-productive to me.
The SNP loathe the Tories, just the feeling is mutual that is all
Speak for yourself
This conservative does not loath the SNP or the Scots
Most of my living family outside Wales are Scots
I do not agree with the SNP but keep your loathing to yourself and your tanks, you Sassenach
Remember @Big_G_NorthWales you’re not a real Tory because you voted for Blair once. 🌚
Twice
Aha. Whilst I myself never voted for Blair. Me being too young to vote is neither here nor there.
1997 was my first vote. What a time to be alive!
2001 was my first vote and despite voting for the winner, 2010 was the first time I was happy to cast my ballot as I did.
Interesting. Is it because 2010 was the first time you could confidently vote negatively against Gordon Brown?
I've always been right wing, but put what I think is best for the country over party politics.
2001 I disliked William Hague and thought the Tories were not ready for Government. I also felt New Labour wasn't doing a bad job, so voted for them so the Tories would remain in opposition and sort themselves out.
2005 I still felt the Tories were not ready for Government, but I felt that Brown was trashing the economy (something he wasn't in 2001) so I voted Tory because Labour was worse, but I was not enthusiastic for the Tories.
2010 Labour absolutely had to go and Cameron's Tories were ready for Government. I was for the first time happy with my vote, as I was in 2015 and 2019.
2017 I disliked May but Corbyn was far worse, so despite having quit the party I still voted Tory. No enthusiasm for May though.
If you voted Labour in 2001 when 32% of British voters still voted Tory you are not really rightwing as those 32% are rightwing, centre right liberal at most
It's not as simple as that is it though. It isn't a straight line where as you move to the right you just become more right wing. It is far more mixed. Philip can speak for himself (we all know he can do that), but it is apparent from his posts that he is more to the right of you economically, although probably more socially liberal
Just to give another example - I am a liberal, I believe in individual freedoms and minimal interference from the state generally. I guess what many would call an orange booker. I would say I am definitely to the right of you economically, yet you are a Tory and I am a liberal.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Here's the problem: they're deeply worried they might be WRONG about Brexit.
Egging on Scottish independence gives them something, anything, one thing, that they can be right about over Brexit, and to them that's what it's all about.
*We* are deeply worried we might be wrong about Brexit?
Yep. And particularly you.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
I feel like you’re massively projecting here.
Err, nope.
Your argument might have more salience had I not conceded the subtle trade-offs with Brexit, acknowledged the risks and downsides, and argued vociferously for Theresa May's deal, but that's probably a bit too complicated for you.
@williamglenn by contrast thinks every 'event' (no matter what it is) proves the case for Ever Closer Union, which is also the answer to every conceivable policy question. He also likes to pose weird hypotheticals in which he tries to steer people to answer in a way that he thinks will support his case too.
That's the mark of the fanatic.
No, the mark of a fanatic is getting unreasonably triggered by an emoji.
I've basically concluded you're an idiot.
Yes, you're an idiot. Incapable of engaging in any argument that you find yourself at odds with other than to troll or provoke.
Henceforth, like 'Mango', I shall simply ignore all of your valueless and moronic posts and derive you of the oxygen of attention on which your fragile sense of worth so clearly depends.
I think you are holding back there CR. Tell us what you really think?
FPT I believe in the United Kingdom. I think we are more together than we would be apart and that Scotland in particular would lose even more than England. I am proud of our history together. We of course have made many mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and in my view the balance is comfortably in credit. My late father served in the British army for more than 20 years. I was born in Cheltenham and spent some of my youth outside Winchester. I have felt more British than Scots my entire life. I am proud to be a citizen of a country that actually matters in the world, that has a seat on the Security Council, that has a well funded and internationally respected aid program, that stands up for human rights and civilised values. I like the fact that we actually matter. If Scotland opts for independence I will feel diminished. I would be a citizen of an irrelevant backwater whose views on the issues of the day are of no moment, who would be parochial and dull. No one who has ever watched the Scottish Parliament should be in any doubt about how dull it would be. When I go down to England I feel every bit as home as I do in Scotland. It is a part of my country. I belong there as much as here. I am still at home. The economic consequences of Independence would of course be calamitous but at the end of the day who you are matters more than how much you have got. There would be a heavy price to pay as the delusions of the Nationalists were laid bare but we would survive. No one should really doubt the price but people like me are not in this for the money. The great weakness of Better Together was that it made so little of this pride in our country and yet when I was canvassing that is what I heard repeatedly. There was great frustration in the way the campaign was fought, a frustration I shared. A Labour led campaign with a Tory government in Westminster meant that there was a great reluctance to speak up for the positive aspects of the Union. It is not a mistake that can be repeated. I do not think that there is anything inevitable about independence. I, for one, will do what I can to persuade my fellow citizens that we are British and proud of it. I think we will prevail, again.
@davidl Wishful thinking David, the die is cast and nothing will stop it now. The supposedly Scottish Tories need to get some talent in and get planning for the future rather than their whole purpose being lickspittles for Westminster. Huge opportunity once independent as the SNP will explode for sure. Ross is a dire choice obviously forced on them by Westminster.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
It has and will have no obligation whatsoever other than what is in its national interest.
You put your finger on the problem with the nationalist fantasy - it will cause a lot of the issues you list, and suffering, and all the problems will be blamed on the English regardless of what transpires.
@Casino_Royale@Bournville There is no way they will push any debt onto Scotland as it means they will have to give Scotland 10% of all assets of England. It will also not be in their interests to be stupid yet again and cut off their noses to spite their faces. Far too many people have relatives either side, best for both sides to do the right thing.
Comments
However, it will not be two weeks, Tier levels are 28 days as is Northern Ireland's regulations today
If in 2015 or before you detested the EU, don't like it, identify with it, or feel any loyalty to it, why stay?
People who live here lived in the EU until then every bit as much as they lived in Britain. People voting to change where they live is what we have democracy for. Better to settle our differences with ballots rather than bullets.
Glad I live in a big house.
To channel George Smiley: it's because you are a fanatic. And the fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt.
Milford Haven is derived from the Viking.
I live a few miles up the road and there was talk of subs coming here and generally it was welcomed.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1316398198886367233
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1316398766455390208
..now even Tory voters are falling into line.
The polling is excellent for the SNP at present but there is a lot of water to flow along the 'Spey' before this is resolved
"If you wished to create a prime minister to make Scottish independence more popular, you could hardly create a more perfect monster than Johnson.
...
. Many of them would still vote no, but with markedly less enthusiasm than before; others suggest they are too depressed to vote at all; some find themselves surprised, and perhaps even a little alarmed, to discover they can imagine voting yes. Some have already changed their mind, deciding getting out is the only realistic way forward. These are company directors, farmers, lawyers, academics and if Boris Johnson is losing people like this — folk with plenty to lose from independence — then you may imagine how he’s faring with other kinds of voter.
...
For this is a three-legged crisis for Unionism. Covid is one leg and Johnson is another but the third, and most significant, leg is Brexit. It cannot be repeated too frequently that Brexit is the sole reason this argument has substance right now. No Brexit, no material change in circumstances that might justify revisiting the national question while the embers of 2014 still glow. Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP would still campaign for independence but they wouldn’t have any good argument for demanding a second referendum. Well, however disagreeable you may think it, they have a decent one now. (It remains decent even if you also think 'once in a generation' should mean something too.) "?
2 weeks will do nothing. If you're going to circuit break then do it properly, do it for a month. At least that will do something. 2 weeks is nothing, all the economic damage and no health advantage. Worst idea of all.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8838063/Coronavirus-UK-Manchester-Lancashire-plunged-strictest-Tier-3-lockdown.html
Council Tax is going to be through the roof in the next few years there.
I can't imagine voting Labour though, and Big G's upcoming border duty seems a just punishment.
Why would we look at the precedent of putting in a border on a moderately-sized island and think that it was a remotely good idea?
Economy?
15% smaller than before covid pretty much permanently.
unemployment? think of a number, add a nought
Debt? Another trillion?
Cash calculations aren't the only factor in people's political decision-making. However, they often *are* for many centrist liberals (who care about little else so long as their consensus isn't up-ended).
Given they keep making this argument it's possible the strongest show of how disconnected their worldview is from the bulk of the populace.
I regret letting him have access to my Amazon account.
That isn't the end of the argument of course but there are punters who will look at that, look at the odds, and back the outsider.
Edit: here's the link....
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/trump-vs-biden-top-battleground-states-2020-vs-2016/
Are Labour suggesting doing so because there are few Labour seats in the SW?
The next step should be taken in 3 weeks (from yesterday) when we'll get the first signs of how effective the Tiering of England has been.
Not before.
I have called this one right.
2001 I disliked William Hague and thought the Tories were not ready for Government. I also felt New Labour wasn't doing a bad job, so voted for them so the Tories would remain in opposition and sort themselves out.
2005 I still felt the Tories were not ready for Government, but I felt that Brown was trashing the economy (something he wasn't in 2001) so I voted Tory because Labour was worse, but I was not enthusiastic for the Tories.
2010 Labour absolutely had to go and Cameron's Tories were ready for Government. I was for the first time happy with my vote, as I was in 2015 and 2019.
2017 I disliked May but Corbyn was far worse, so despite having quit the party I still voted Tory. No enthusiasm for May though.
https://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-11/bow-down-to-your-imperial-masters-scottish-man-hounds-labour-mps-with-darth-vader-theme
In my back yard (only) polling - trust myself and no-one else.
But seriously, No Deal "WTO" Brexit has always been a 0% probability - aka a Not Happening Event - ergo a Deal has always been 100% certain.
So Pesto has (belatedly) nailed this one.
Your argument might have more salience had I not conceded the subtle trade-offs with Brexit, acknowledged the risks and downsides, and argued vociferously for Theresa May's deal, but that's probably a bit too complicated for you.
@williamglenn by contrast thinks every 'event' (no matter what it is) proves the case for Ever Closer Union, which is also the answer to every conceivable policy question. He also likes to pose weird hypotheticals in which he tries to steer people to answer in a way that he thinks will support his case too.
That's the mark of the fanatic.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what the government's strategy for dealing with the pandemic is, since it's been around for going on 9 months now. I sketched out two potential strategies, and Nigel added a third.
I guess I should have added the default option of continuing with the current set of restrictions indefinitely. Maybe it's sustainable, and preferable to the other ones - I honestly don't know.
I used to think it was controlling infections via lockdown until a vaccine turned up. Johnston stood up in the commons the other day and said there may never be one. I realise the current lot are pretty damn rubbish at the whole running the country thing, but really, is some sort of articulated plan too much to ask?
If I ever hear those sentiments (and I didn't from the poster concerned) then I will applaud them, even if I don't personally agree with the politics.
However, to just slag off Britain, insult it, and then profess loyalty to a foreign state instead. Well, there's another word for that..
I don’t know the answer to that question, but the data is there.
I agree it's better to settle our differences with ballots. That isn't even in question.
Especially when that month coincides with the outbreak of Covid Freshers Flu.
https://twitter.com/BrianFrancisRoy/status/1316344298254807040?s=20
NEW THREAD
What you consider your nation is up to you. I consider it to be England, some say Britain - and a cultish minority considered it to be the EU.
Yes, you're an idiot. Incapable of engaging in any argument that you find yourself at odds with other than to troll or provoke.
Henceforth, like 'Mango', I shall simply ignore all of your valueless and moronic posts and derive you of the oxygen of attention on which your fragile sense of worth so clearly depends.
Landslide for Wilson. I then tried to join the Labour Party but they wouldn't have me because I didn't belong to a union. I joined the Liberals instead.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1316385342694535173
Just to give another example - I am a liberal, I believe in individual freedoms and minimal interference from the state generally. I guess what many would call an orange booker. I would say I am definitely to the right of you economically, yet you are a Tory and I am a liberal.
Huge opportunity once independent as the SNP will explode for sure. Ross is a dire choice obviously forced on them by Westminster.
There is no way they will push any debt onto Scotland as it means they will have to give Scotland 10% of all assets of England. It will also not be in their interests to be stupid yet again and cut off their noses to spite their faces. Far too many people have relatives either side, best for both sides to do the right thing.