Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Identity is whatever people think it is and that can change rapidly.
If you want to go off history then Scotland has been independent for more of history than united with the English.
What matters isn't how people felt 20, 50, 100 or 700 years ago. What matters is how people feel now.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
Interesting post. "European identity"?
We`re still European whether in the EU or not. I understand the rights part but you feel that your European identity has been "stripped away"? I voted to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons and I`ve never understood how anyone can be emotionally invested in an organisation such as the EU (though I certainly identify as European).
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
Well, I've never been called a pan-nationalist globalist before, but I reckon I can live with it.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
"Yes" got 45% in 2014 which included the majority of younger people. And in the 55% were many who liked the notion of independence but were scared to go for it. So I agree that Sindy was coming anyway within a generation, Brexit or no Brexit.
But Brexit has done 2 things which have advanced and legitimized the Sindy cause. It provided a "material change in circumstances". This justifies another referendum provided the SNP win a mandate for it at Holyrood. And it delivered a landslide Tory government under Boris Johnson. This accentuates and illustrates the chasm in political values between England and Scotland.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Sophie Dunne, a second year student, told university newspaper Redbrick that several students had come out of their homes to tell council workers they’d received the used kits. She claims they were then told by the staff not to ‘put it on social media’.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
It's only a single people to the extent to which British = English.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You may feel that but in the same way I feel akin to the Canadians, Australians and Kiwis as our cousins and closer to us in identity than the Germans, French or Romanians ever will be.
The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.
Like you I am completely flummoxed as to her Sky High popularity given that Scotland is basically doing as well as the UK.
But at the same time I am not surprised. Sturgeon's communication is miles, miles better than the UK government. A completely different class. The level of empathy and understanding she communicates is grade A.
Yes, this is true. She speaks with authority and empathy. It's just the actual governing which is a shambles.
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Casino: There is no European identity, only a UK identity Phil: There is no UK identity, only an English one [Unnamed, say, Cornish Author]: There is no English identity, only a Cornish one.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
I'm afraid it is just that unwillingness to grant other people's view of themselves as legitimate that is one of the reasons for the likely break up of the UK.
Certainly so. It is like the worst of Scottish Nationalist opinion on Scots who feel British. It is a very precise parallel.
I will never forgive or forget the Brexiteers who tore away my European identity. I recognise not everyone feels so soiled by Brexit, but some of us do.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
Lol. Are you kidding? Scottish Indy will cause a severe recession in rUK and a decade of yet more chaos and divisiveness, just because Scotland chose to do this. And the pain will be even worse within Scotland. The English will demand their government acts with ruthless self interest. As is only natural. It will be a bitter and nasty divorce, like Brexit but worse (with the English in the role of the EU). As English firms go bust in the Borders, there will be no appetite for generosity.
This should have been considered when Westminster dragged Scotland out of the EU against her will.
It's certainly difficult to understand why English demands for more more sovereignity should be ok, whilst Scottish demands should not.
Only true of the stance of the two main parties. According to the poll both labour and conservative english voters support the break up of the uk by a slim margin. 52.5 tory and 51.5 labour. Once again politicians out of step with voters
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That`s irrelevant, UK is a nation state - not remotely comparable. CR is right. Some remainers regard being European as being the same as being part of a nation state? Bizarre.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That`s irrelevant, UK is a nation state - not remotely comparable. CR is right. Some remainers regard being European as being the same as being part of a nation state? Bizarre.
Hang on, the Brexiteers said the UK was being subsumed into a United States of Europe, Brexiteers can't have it both ways.
Plus being European doesn't mean the EU, I consider European non members of the EU as Europeans.
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Did you miss the earlier poll?
How badly do you think the SNP will do with Yes on only 53% and the SNP only polling 50% with Labour on a majestic 18% as the ComRes states?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
One hesitates to restart battles from 2016 (to be clear, it's possible to accept the fact of Brexit and still think that it's a damn silly thing. Furthermore, one can accept the democratic imperative to do a damn silly thing and still be furious about it happening in a damn silly way), but in the grand scheme of things, of course the UK shares aspects of identity with countries on the European mainland. Off the top of my head,
A religious culture which is Christian. Where people have moved into post-religious worldviews, it's post-Christian, not post-anything else.
Ancestral imprints of the Roman Empire.
Languages which aren't the same, but aren't all that different, either.
A rather grim history of fighting wars against each other in changing coalitions, such that the 75 years since the end of WW2 and 30 or so years since the end of the Cold War are actually a pretty good run.
Towns, cities and countryside that look a lot more like each other than they look like, say, the United States.
None of that needs a formal union of interdependent states, let alone a United States of Europe. And maybe the UK will find a stable equilibrium between itself, the EU27 and the rest of the World. (I assume that we've all dropped the Hannan fantasy that Ireland, Sweden, the Netherlands and whoever else are joining us in leaving.) But there is a real shared identity there, and what the Johnson government is doing bad things to that identity.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That`s irrelevant, UK is a nation state - not remotely comparable. CR is right. Some remainers regard being European as being the same as being part of a nation state? Bizarre.
Hang on, the Brexiteers said the UK was being subsumed into a United States of Europe, Brexiteers can't have it both ways.
Plus being European doesn't mean the EU, I consider European non members of the EU as Europeans.
Not in it`s current form, Brexiteers were concerned that that is the direction of travel.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
I know that but the EC of 1957 doesn't exist any more than the UK of 1801 exists anymore. You're making an apples and pears comparison.
The EU of today only came to exist at midnight CEST 1 February 2020.
Even if you discount Brexit then the EU of today only came to exist in 2017.
Amazing, the EU has copied our traffic light system for travel after being critical of it for months (for good reason). Is everyone just asleep at the wheel?
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
Nope, it’s not arrogant - it’s true.
You can identify as a donkey if you want to. It doesn’t mean I should take it or you seriously.
'You're all wrong and I am right' isn't entirely persuasive as a rhetorical approach.
I was dead against in 2014 made long cases elsewhere before my delurk here post Indyref. Econimically it will be harder with Scotland in and England out of the EU, but perhaps it eases the Irish border. This time, if it happens, it happens.
I know little of the great historical figures of Ireland or, if I do, I'm not overly aware of their Irish heritage. The Republic of Ireland is a more different place when you go there. I expect my grandkids will be more distant from the MacAdams and Logie Baird's of this world than they otherwise would have been, the Scottish children from the Attenborough's and our overall shared history, for good and ill, in culture and war, as rivals and accomplices, big and small (Nina and the Neurons, anyone?). Economics will be sorted someday, but I do not look forward to the further cultural asset splitting that will become inevitable.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
I know that but the EC of 1957 doesn't exist any more than the UK of 1801 exists anymore. You're making an apples and pears comparison.
The EU of today only came to exist at midnight CEST 1 February 2020.
Even if you discount Brexit then the EU of today only came to exist in 2017.
Either way the EU and the UK are only a 100 years apart, not the hundreds of history year that CR said in his original post.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
Lawyers, you're all useless.
Just imagine our bill out rates and salaries if we weren't useless.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
I do love Europe. It's because the EU has toxified the "European" brand in its dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of federalism - including its insistence on broadcasting its nasty little propaganda through putting its viral little flag on everything and shoving European messages out on radio ads and kids initiatives - that I have such a problem with it.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
I'm afraid it is just that unwillingness to grant other people's view of themselves as legitimate that is one of the reasons for the likely break up of the UK.
Certainly so. It is like the worst of Scottish Nationalist opinion on Scots who feel British. It is a very precise parallel.
I will never forgive or forget the Brexiteers who tore away my European identity. I recognise not everyone feels so soiled by Brexit, but some of us do.
" Jim Murphy, the former Scotland secretary who was elected as the party’s leader north of the border at the weekend, has pledged to ensure that Labour does not lose any of the 41 seats (out of 59) it won in Scotland at the last general election."
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
Nope, it’s not arrogant - it’s true.
You can identify as a donkey if you want to. It doesn’t mean I should take it or you seriously.
'You're all wrong and I am right' isn't entirely persuasive as a rhetorical approach.
Be thoughtful, he's a Unionist deep down, and if it meant the UK would remain united, he'd go back in time and vote Remain.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
I do love Europe. It's because the EU has toxified the "European" brand in its dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of federalism - including its insistence on broadcasting its nasty little propaganda through putting its viral little flag on everything and shoving European messages out on radio ads and kids initiatives - that I have such a problem with it.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
I do love Europe. It's because the EU has toxified the "European" brand in its dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of federalism - including its insistence on broadcasting its nasty little propaganda through putting its viral little flag on everything and shoving European messages out on radio ads and kids initiatives - that I have such a problem with it.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
If it was it wouldn't boil my piss.
Do you ever wonder whether a dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of British nationalism might be putting people off the union?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You may feel that but in the same way I feel akin to the Canadians, Australians and Kiwis as our cousins and closer to us in identity than the Germans, French or Romanians ever will be.
I understand that and respect your right to whatever identity you feel comfortable with. I feel all kind of affinities, with family and close friends in or from many countries in the world including the Anglosphere, the broader Commonwealth and the EU. I dislike strident nationalist narratives that seek to close off those connections, which is why I disliked the SNP for such a long time. Post Brexit though I have come to view the English nationalists who pushed for Brexit as by far the bigger threat to that pluralistic worldview, and so I think Scottish independence is by far the lesser of two evils now. One thing I would add - living and working in the US for a number of years made me feel very European. The UK is a European country. I think that Australians and Canadians felt much more at home in the US.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
I do love Europe. It's because the EU has toxified the "European" brand in its dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of federalism - including its insistence on broadcasting its nasty little propaganda through putting its viral little flag on everything and shoving European messages out on radio ads and kids initiatives - that I have such a problem with it.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
I know that but the EC of 1957 doesn't exist any more than the UK of 1801 exists anymore. You're making an apples and pears comparison.
The EU of today only came to exist at midnight CEST 1 February 2020.
Even if you discount Brexit then the EU of today only came to exist in 2017.
Either way the EU and the UK are only a 100 years apart, not the hundreds of history year that CR said in his original post.
Silly nonsense. The Union has existed since 1707, and 1801 if you want to include Ireland and be really particular about it.
Nothing like the EU, which is actually 1992-93 in its federalist form.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
I do love Europe. It's because the EU has toxified the "European" brand in its dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of federalism - including its insistence on broadcasting its nasty little propaganda through putting its viral little flag on everything and shoving European messages out on radio ads and kids initiatives - that I have such a problem with it.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
If it was it wouldn't boil my piss.
This badboy?
🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
Yes.
Twat.
This is the second time you’ve had a strop over a little flag emoji. It doesn’t make any rational sense.
You won a referendum, won a 80 seat majority, and achieved all your goals. You need to get over it really.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You may feel that but in the same way I feel akin to the Canadians, Australians and Kiwis as our cousins and closer to us in identity than the Germans, French or Romanians ever will be.
I understand that and respect your right to whatever identity you feel comfortable with. I feel all kind of affinities, with family and close friends in or from many countries in the world including the Anglosphere, the broader Commonwealth and the EU. I dislike strident nationalist narratives that seek to close off those connections, which is why I disliked the SNP for such a long time. Post Brexit though I have come to view the English nationalists who pushed for Brexit as by far the bigger threat to that pluralistic worldview, and so I think Scottish independence is by far the lesser of two evils now. One thing I would add - living and working in the US for a number of years made me feel very European. The UK is a European country. I think that Australians and Canadians felt much more at home in the US.
Everyone says this about the USA. I very pointedly did not include the US in my list of 'cousins'.
Melbourne is very, very similar to the UK culturally. The differences between UK cities and regions can be every bit as great as the difference between some of those and Melbourne.
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Did you miss the earlier poll?
How badly do you think the SNP will do with Yes on only 53% and the SNP only polling 50% with Labour on a majestic 18% as the ComRes states?
The main point is that the polls are very different. Comres has the SNP on 41% for the List vote.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🏴🏴🏴🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
It’s the flag of the Council of Europe anyway, an organisation of which we are still a member.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
I think the brain drain won't be long in coming, but it won't be because the owners of said brains hold this country in low regard.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
" Jim Murphy, the former Scotland secretary who was elected as the party’s leader north of the border at the weekend, has pledged to ensure that Labour does not lose any of the 41 seats (out of 59) it won in Scotland at the last general election."
I though the" SNP expected to take several seats from Labour " perfectly matched the" sure the SNP are 20 points ahead but nothing really bad will happen" group think that was around at the time.
Even as late as March you had people on here pegging the maximum number of SNP seats in the he thirties.
On identity, I think there is a common European identity. I don't think it's very strong and there definitely aren't "European nationalists" outside of a few cranks in Brussels and on here. When we're travelling in Asia or somewhere like that I'm much more likely to chat to other Europeans than I am to Asians, we just have more in common and are more likely to have shared experiences.
That isn't enough to build a USE out of and the EU isn't Europe. Part of the issue I think a lot of people have with the EU is that it likes to pretend that it is Europe and nothing in Europe should happen without it being involved. I don't think that's limited to people from England either, it's a fairly common sentiment across basically all European people I know, just that people here feel more strongly about it because people think the EU isn't the only game in town. Part of the pretence of the EU is that it is the only game in town and part of what is driving the breakdown in EU/UK relations is that it needs to maintain the pretence.
If the UK proves that there is another way of conducting global trade outside of the EU the foundations of the organisations will be very badly damaged because the idea that EU=Europe starts to crack.
Yes, there is a common identity, no, it isn't because of the EU.
I will always be British and Scottish. I voted No to Scottish independence previously. I accepted that Leave won whilst I voted Remain, so some form of Brexit should be carried out. I cannot accept that neither the Scottish people nor the Scottish government will have any say over the direction of Scotland's future. That is no union to be valued. For that reason, I'll remain British and Scottish but not in a United Kingdom.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You may feel that but in the same way I feel akin to the Canadians, Australians and Kiwis as our cousins and closer to us in identity than the Germans, French or Romanians ever will be.
I understand that and respect your right to whatever identity you feel comfortable with. I feel all kind of affinities, with family and close friends in or from many countries in the world including the Anglosphere, the broader Commonwealth and the EU. I dislike strident nationalist narratives that seek to close off those connections, which is why I disliked the SNP for such a long time. Post Brexit though I have come to view the English nationalists who pushed for Brexit as by far the bigger threat to that pluralistic worldview, and so I think Scottish independence is by far the lesser of two evils now. One thing I would add - living and working in the US for a number of years made me feel very European. The UK is a European country. I think that Australians and Canadians felt much more at home in the US.
Everyone says this about the USA. I very pointedly did not include the US in my list of 'cousins'.
Melbourne is very, very similar to the UK culturally. The differences between UK cities and regions can be every bit as great as the difference between some of those and Melbourne.
I don't know Melbourne at all but once spent a few days in Sydney and it felt a lot more like an American city than a British one. Of course that is only my immediate and superficial impression. I did have the impression that Australians and of course Canadians who I knew in the US found it easier to acclimatise than I did. Od course some Brits really take to the US, so perhaps it was just me! I loved living there but it never felt like home.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
I'm afraid it is just that unwillingness to grant other people's view of themselves as legitimate that is one of the reasons for the likely break up of the UK.
Certainly so. It is like the worst of Scottish Nationalist opinion on Scots who feel British. It is a very precise parallel.
I will never forgive or forget the Brexiteers who tore away my European identity. I recognise not everyone feels so soiled by Brexit, but some of us do.
I don't feel that way (I am one of the pragmatic anti-Brexit crowd), but I quite understand why you might.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
Nope, it’s not arrogant - it’s true.
You can identify as a donkey if you want to. It doesn’t mean I should take it or you seriously.
'You're all wrong and I am right' isn't entirely persuasive as a rhetorical approach.
Be thoughtful, he's a Unionist deep down, and if it meant the UK would remain united, he'd go back in time and vote Remain.
These are difficult days for people like him.
I suspect that is true of a lot of people who voted remain (though they won`t admit it). Having said that a friend who was a strong leaver (but otherwise not politically engaged at all) said the other day "Why did they even have to ask us!".
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
I will always be British and Scottish. I voted No to Scottish independence previously. I accepted that Leave won whilst I voted Remain, so some form of Brexit should be carried out. I cannot accept that neither the Scottish people nor the Scottish government will have any say over the direction of Scotland's future. That is no union to be valued. For that reason, I'll remain British and Scottish but not in a United Kingdom.
On identity, I think there is a common European identity. I don't think it's very strong and there definitely aren't "European nationalists" outside of a few cranks in Brussels and on here. When we're travelling in Asia or somewhere like that I'm much more likely to chat to other Europeans than I am to Asians, we just have more in common and are more likely to have shared experiences.
That isn't enough to build a USE out of and the EU isn't Europe. Part of the issue I think a lot of people have with the EU is that it likes to pretend that it is Europe and nothing in Europe should happen without it being involved. I don't think that's limited to people from England either, it's a fairly common sentiment across basically all European people I know, just that people here feel more strongly about it because people think the EU isn't the only game in town. Part of the pretence of the EU is that it is the only game in town and part of what is driving the breakdown in EU/UK relations is that it needs to maintain the pretence.
If the UK proves that there is another way of conducting global trade outside of the EU the foundations of the organisations will be very badly damaged because the idea that EU=Europe starts to crack.
Yes, there is a common identity, no, it isn't because of the EU.
I suspect as time goes on Europe = EU will gain more traction not less. The UK will simply not be classed as part of Europe any more than Canada or Mexico (or Brazil, Peru, Columbia etc) are referred to when someone says "America".
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You may feel that but in the same way I feel akin to the Canadians, Australians and Kiwis as our cousins and closer to us in identity than the Germans, French or Romanians ever will be.
I think your post and OLB post make it clear that this is all very much a personal view as both of you both have reasonable positions regarding your allegiances. I am not very nationalistic, but will support GB or England in a sporting contest provided they play in a sporting way. There is a natural rivalry in our house because my wife is Scottish, but when the chips are down we support each others side.
Outside of that I am embarrassed by English people who are thuggish, display arrogance to foreigners, etc, etc. We aren't special, or at least no more special than anyone else.
I consider myself to be a European (because I am), but I am rather fond of Canadians/Australians/Kiwis also.
I tend to support whoever is doing the right thing. I find nationalism generally rather unpleasant.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
One hesitates to restart battles from 2016 (to be clear, it's possible to accept the fact of Brexit and still think that it's a damn silly thing. Furthermore, one can accept the democratic imperative to do a damn silly thing and still be furious about it happening in a damn silly way), but in the grand scheme of things, of course the UK shares aspects of identity with countries on the European mainland. Off the top of my head,
A religious culture which is Christian. Where people have moved into post-religious worldviews, it's post-Christian, not post-anything else.
Ancestral imprints of the Roman Empire.
Languages which aren't the same, but aren't all that different, either.
A rather grim history of fighting wars against each other in changing coalitions, such that the 75 years since the end of WW2 and 30 or so years since the end of the Cold War are actually a pretty good run.
Towns, cities and countryside that look a lot more like each other than they look like, say, the United States.
None of that needs a formal union of interdependent states, let alone a United States of Europe. And maybe the UK will find a stable equilibrium between itself, the EU27 and the rest of the World. (I assume that we've all dropped the Hannan fantasy that Ireland, Sweden, the Netherlands and whoever else are joining us in leaving.) But there is a real shared identity there, and what the Johnson government is doing bad things to that identity.
And the EU will ensure that Scotland receives a glorious welcome with tons of incentives. This will serve as both a welcome and a deterrent to other nations intending to pursue the myopic lunacy of the English, whom I find I increasingly dislike on a visceral level. (Not all of them. Mike's a good egg.)
Fantasy.
That throwaway will haunt you. I've spent a lot of time on this, talking with people and it's not fantasy.
The EU want to ensure that no other state walks away so they have two aims which they won't declare openly. One is to make life extremely uncomfortable for the English. The other is to welcome back with massive incentives any part of the former united kingdom who wish to rejoin. That won't apply to England, of course, but it most certainly does to Scotland.
I've lived in outlying areas of the EU, such as poorer parts of the Canaries, and the EU were very good at looking after them. It may be paternalistic and all that but I can assure you they will be delighted to welcome Scotland back into the fold.
Their ultimate pleasure would be a thoroughly successful thriving Scotland and a miserable England - an England that serves as a warning to anyone else stupid enough to leave the most successful trading bloc on earth.
Your post outlines the Scottish nationalist fantasy very well.
We know Scottish nationalism is fundamentally driven by an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the English. They seem to genuinely think joining the EU will provide them with a stick with which they can beat the Auld Enemy.
It really is very funny.
Well you've put your finger on it there. Scottish foreign policy has been consistent for hundreds of years whereas the UK government can't stick to any policy for more than a few weeks at a time.
I will always be British and Scottish. I voted No to Scottish independence previously. I accepted that Leave won whilst I voted Remain, so some form of Brexit should be carried out. I cannot accept that neither the Scottish people nor the Scottish government will have any say over the direction of Scotland's future. That is no union to be valued. For that reason, I'll remain British and Scottish but not in a United Kingdom.
Yes, and this is how I feel about being a European. I still feel culturally European and I still am one, just not as part of the EU which has tried to become the arbiter of who is and isn't one. Westminster doesn't get to tell Scottish people they aren't British if Scotland votes to leave the Union, but the EU doesn't get to tell me I'm not European.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
That's ridiculous TSE. The UK didn't come to exist in its current form in the 80s.
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was created in the early 1920s, the EC in 1957.
I know that but the EC of 1957 doesn't exist any more than the UK of 1801 exists anymore. You're making an apples and pears comparison.
The EU of today only came to exist at midnight CEST 1 February 2020.
Even if you discount Brexit then the EU of today only came to exist in 2017.
Either way the EU and the UK are only a 100 years apart, not the hundreds of history year that CR said in his original post.
Silly nonsense. The Union has existed since 1707, and 1801 if you want to include Ireland and be really particular about it.
Nothing like the EU, which is actually 1992-93 in its federalist form.
Why are you so embarrassed about the existence of Ireland, to the extent that admitting its status (or part of it) as one of 4 equal constituents of the UK, counts as being "really particular" and that you make the utterly false claim that Britain is a nation state?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Aren't you overlooking the great unifying project of collectively sticking two fingers up to Europe that is Brexit? Wasn't "Global Britain" supposed to create a new sense of British identity, freed from dilution from Brussels?
Mmm. If you take the "Br" out of Brexit you don't just spoil the name you get a rather different project.
British people have been dying at six times the rate of German people, from a disease that both countries could see coming at the same time. I wanted to ask around a bit and find out why.
The short version is that there are several factors, of varying importance — but, probably, none of them is magic, or hidden, or mysterious. There’s no obvious need to posit “immunological dark matter” or illegible cultural factors. Germany was better prepared and reacted faster than Britain did, and in some ways got lucky, while making some mistakes of its own; it had a political system and, of course, politicians, which were better suited to the moment; and together, those factors added up to keeping several tens of thousand Germans alive.
The key factors, in particular, appear to have been that they took measures earlier, and that they were better at protecting the most at-risk people. Those decisions came at significant cost, economically and to people’s lives – but, I think most of us would agree now, they were worth it.
Britain has an NHS, whereas Germany has a functional healthcare system.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
It would be more constructive to try and tell Casino that having a British identity is nothing to do with the UK.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Aren't you overlooking the great unifying project of collectively sticking two fingers up to Europe that is Brexit? Wasn't "Global Britain" supposed to create a new sense of British identity, freed from dilution from Brussels?
Mmm. If you take the "Br" out of Brexit you don't just spoil the name you get a rather different project.
Brexit means the exit of Britain. It looks like an increasingly apposite phrase.
@Anabobazina that Michigan poll is Biden 48% (-) Trump 39% (-1). The New Hampshire one is Suffolk University’s first poll of the state as far as I can see.
The Michigan poll is consistent with the idea that everyone has already made up their mind.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
In practice, the only thing which can really reverse the move towards increasing support for Scottish independence is an effective non-SNP political movement in Scotland. The Scottish Conservatives have a respectable level of support but only as a relatively minor party, and the antics of Boris certainly don't help. So the key is the extent to which Labour can regain some of the lost ground - after all, it's not long ago that Labour totally dominated Scottish politics. Is it unthinkable that they could revive, in a big enough way to make a difference?
There is some encouragement in that Keir Starmer seems to get reasonable levels of approval in Scotland (positive 16% in the latest poll). But, but, there is the Richard Leonard roadblock. Any Scots who want to save the Union should be striving to get that roadblock dismantled.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Take the cohort of Scots who want to see Scotland as a member state of the EU, for example. Is it they who are deluded, or the people who think they can be denied?
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
I'm not sure what remainer delusion is either. It's morphing into Rejoiner hope anyway.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
On identity, I think there is a common European identity. I don't think it's very strong and there definitely aren't "European nationalists" outside of a few cranks in Brussels and on here. When we're travelling in Asia or somewhere like that I'm much more likely to chat to other Europeans than I am to Asians, we just have more in common and are more likely to have shared experiences.
That isn't enough to build a USE out of and the EU isn't Europe. Part of the issue I think a lot of people have with the EU is that it likes to pretend that it is Europe and nothing in Europe should happen without it being involved. I don't think that's limited to people from England either, it's a fairly common sentiment across basically all European people I know, just that people here feel more strongly about it because people think the EU isn't the only game in town. Part of the pretence of the EU is that it is the only game in town and part of what is driving the breakdown in EU/UK relations is that it needs to maintain the pretence.
If the UK proves that there is another way of conducting global trade outside of the EU the foundations of the organisations will be very badly damaged because the idea that EU=Europe starts to crack.
Yes, there is a common identity, no, it isn't because of the EU.
That the institution of the EU will fall apart is a fantasy confined mainly to British Eurosceptics/Europhobics. Most continental Europeans view it much the same way as I still do - highly flawed but in principle a good thing, and it will continue to be so without British membership. The reality is that all institutions are flawed (all of ours, plus UN, NATO etc.), but it doesn't mean it is sensible or desirable to throw the proverbial baby out, though sadly 52% of us chose to do so though without looking at the massive beams in our own democratic eyes. The ramifications of that decision are yet to fully manifest themselves.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
Neither is going to Newcastle and telling the locals they’re mackems!
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Did you miss the earlier poll?
How badly do you think the SNP will do with Yes on only 53% and the SNP only polling 50% with Labour on a majestic 18% as the ComRes states?
The main point is that the polls are very different. Comres has the SNP on 41% for the List vote.
The polls are not very different.
The SNP being on low 40s for the list is 100% expected.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
Hmm. I`m going to ponder on this further. I`ve enjoyed this thread because I`ve never understood how someone can attach identity to a political project rather than an entity with national borders and democracy within. Voting to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons - I can understand that - I`m in their number - but voting remain for emotional reasons I don`t get at all because we are still European.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
Well quite, and the same applies now with a substantial number of people in the UK today.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
Hmm. I`m going to ponder on this further. I`ve enjoyed this thread because I`ve never understood how someone can attach identity to a political project rather than an entity with national borders and democracy within. Voting to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons - I can understand that - I`m in their number - but voting remain for emotional reasons I don`t get at all because we are still European.
In what sense are 'national borders and democracy' not in themselves also the result of a political project?
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
I had a brief encounter with a girl from Strabane, Northern Ireland.
Telling her she was a Brit wasn't a wise move either.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
Comments
If you want to go off history then Scotland has been independent for more of history than united with the English.
What matters isn't how people felt 20, 50, 100 or 700 years ago. What matters is how people feel now.
Manchester's Christmas Markets have officially been cancelled.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/manchester-christmas-markets-officially-been-19102334
We`re still European whether in the EU or not. I understand the rights part but you feel that your European identity has been "stripped away"? I voted to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons and I`ve never understood how anyone can be emotionally invested in an organisation such as the EU (though I certainly identify as European).
Enjoy yourselves all.
But Brexit has done 2 things which have advanced and legitimized the Sindy cause. It provided a "material change in circumstances". This justifies another referendum provided the SNP win a mandate for it at Holyrood. And it delivered a landslide Tory government under Boris Johnson. This accentuates and illustrates the chasm in political values between England and Scotland.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Phil: There is no UK identity, only an English one
[Unnamed, say, Cornish Author]: There is no English identity, only a Cornish one.
I will never forgive or forget the Brexiteers who tore away my European identity. I recognise not everyone feels so soiled by Brexit, but some of us do.
Plus being European doesn't mean the EU, I consider European non members of the EU as Europeans.
A religious culture which is Christian. Where people have moved into post-religious worldviews, it's post-Christian, not post-anything else.
Ancestral imprints of the Roman Empire.
Languages which aren't the same, but aren't all that different, either.
A rather grim history of fighting wars against each other in changing coalitions, such that the 75 years since the end of WW2 and 30 or so years since the end of the Cold War are actually a pretty good run.
Towns, cities and countryside that look a lot more like each other than they look like, say, the United States.
None of that needs a formal union of interdependent states, let alone a United States of Europe. And maybe the UK will find a stable equilibrium between itself, the EU27 and the rest of the World. (I assume that we've all dropped the Hannan fantasy that Ireland, Sweden, the Netherlands and whoever else are joining us in leaving.) But there is a real shared identity there, and what the Johnson government is doing bad things to that identity.
The EU of today only came to exist at midnight CEST 1 February 2020.
Even if you discount Brexit then the EU of today only came to exist in 2017.
I know little of the great historical figures of Ireland or, if I do, I'm not overly aware of their Irish heritage. The Republic of Ireland is a more different place when you go there. I expect my grandkids will be more distant from the MacAdams and Logie Baird's of this world than they otherwise would have been, the Scottish children from the Attenborough's and our overall shared history, for good and ill, in culture and war, as rivals and accomplices, big and small (Nina and the Neurons, anyone?). Economics will be sorted someday, but I do not look forward to the further cultural asset splitting that will become inevitable.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
If it was it wouldn't boil my piss.
" Jim Murphy, the former Scotland secretary who was elected as the party’s leader north of the border at the weekend, has pledged to ensure that Labour does not lose any of the 41 seats (out of 59) it won in Scotland at the last general election."
These are difficult days for people like him.
🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
One thing I would add - living and working in the US for a number of years made me feel very European. The UK is a European country. I think that Australians and Canadians felt much more at home in the US.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Twat.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/trump-vs-biden-top-battleground-states-2020-vs-2016/
Nothing like the EU, which is actually 1992-93 in its federalist form.
You won a referendum, won a 80 seat majority, and achieved all your goals. You need to get over it really.
Melbourne is very, very similar to the UK culturally. The differences between UK cities and regions can be every bit as great as the difference between some of those and Melbourne.
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54374224
Even as late as March you had people on here pegging the maximum number of SNP seats in the he thirties.
That isn't enough to build a USE out of and the EU isn't Europe. Part of the issue I think a lot of people have with the EU is that it likes to pretend that it is Europe and nothing in Europe should happen without it being involved. I don't think that's limited to people from England either, it's a fairly common sentiment across basically all European people I know, just that people here feel more strongly about it because people think the EU isn't the only game in town. Part of the pretence of the EU is that it is the only game in town and part of what is driving the breakdown in EU/UK relations is that it needs to maintain the pretence.
If the UK proves that there is another way of conducting global trade outside of the EU the foundations of the organisations will be very badly damaged because the idea that EU=Europe starts to crack.
Yes, there is a common identity, no, it isn't because of the EU.
How the EU triggers Casino.
Outside of that I am embarrassed by English people who are thuggish, display arrogance to foreigners, etc, etc. We aren't special, or at least no more special than anyone else.
I consider myself to be a European (because I am), but I am rather fond of Canadians/Australians/Kiwis also.
I tend to support whoever is doing the right thing. I find nationalism generally rather unpleasant.
New Hampshire
OCT 8-12, 2020
A
Suffolk University
500 LV Biden
51%
Less Biden +10
Trump
41%
Jorgensen
2%
Michigan
OCT 8-12, 2020
B+
EPIC-MRA
600 LV Biden
48%
39%
Trump Biden +9
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
The Michigan poll is consistent with the idea that everyone has already made up their mind.
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
But what does it mean?
There is some encouragement in that Keir Starmer seems to get reasonable levels of approval in Scotland (positive 16% in the latest poll). But, but, there is the Richard Leonard roadblock. Any Scots who want to save the Union should be striving to get that roadblock dismantled.
The SNP being on low 40s for the list is 100% expected.
Telling her she was a Brit wasn't a wise move either.
https://twitter.com/stella2020woof/status/1316372308777369602