What has the Uk too be proud of in the last thirty years?
Off the top of my head:
- The creation of the Single Market - The dominance of the City in the financial sector, and the growth of international services generally - The adoption by virtually the whole world of the reforms pioneered here under Thatcher - A cultural sector unrivalled anywhere else in the world in its breadth and quality - Superb academic and research reputation
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
I had a brief encounter with a girl from Strabane, Northern Ireland.
Telling her she was a Brit wasn't a wise move either.
In practice, the only thing which can really reverse the move towards increasing support for Scottish independence is an effective non-SNP political movement in Scotland. The Scottish Conservatives have a respectable level of support but only as a relatively minor party, and the antics of Boris certainly don't help. So the key is the extent to which Labour can regain some of the lost ground - after all, it's not long ago that Labour totally dominated Scottish politics. Is it unthinkable that they could revive, in a big enough way to make a difference?
There is some encouragement in that Keir Starmer seems to get reasonable levels of approval in Scotland (positive 16% in the latest poll). But, but, there is the Richard Leonard roadblock. Any Scots who want to save the Union should be striving to get that roadblock dismantled.
Seems a bit harsh, surely Leonard can simply be removed, rather than dismantled?
What has the Uk too be proud of in the last thirty years?
Off the top of my head:
- The creation of the Single Market - The dominance of the City in the financial sector, and the growth of international services generally - The adoption by virtually the whole world of the reforms pioneered here under Thatcher - A cultural sector unrivalled anywhere else in the world in its breadth and quality - Superb academic and research reputation
Last thirty years Richard. Thirty years ago was 1990.
A reality check: if Daughter’s business was closed for a month the maximum help it would get would be £1,300.
That would cover one month’s rent and part only of a month’s electricity. Bear in mind that freezers need to be kept on.
How could water, wi-if, telephone, insurance be paid for?
Let alone employees’ wages (paying for the 33% the government won’t help with), NI, pension contributions etc?
That’s a closed business in debt right there from Day 1.
And for businesses under Tier 2 restrictions, turnover is down 70%. That’s not viable.
So unless the government changes its mind over support, the hospitality sector will be - bluntly - bust long before Xmas.
Which is going to be catastrophic. And will cost the government far more than sustaining these otherwise viable businesses would be. This isn't an airline or a premier league football club asking for cash. This is our community. Our culture.
It is, and the safe and sustained opening of viable businesses was treated as a joke by Johnson.
Instead of initiating robust risk assessments to confirm what businesses could safely be reopened, and could stay open, he made crass comedic comments like "it is you patriotic duty to go to the pub".
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Oh dear, I had begun to like some of your posts, and thought that maybe I had you wrong. This latest one really marks you out for the nationalistic dullard I originally thought you were. Those of us that think Brexit is a pile of shit and Boris Johnson is an even greater pillock than you are going nowhere. We love our country, and quite of few of us have served our country in various ways. We just think that such a wonderful place with a great history shouldn't be left to the lowest political denominator that is represented by anyone who could write the petty minded divisive bollox that you vomited up above. If you don't like people that have different views to you, or those who might express loyalties beyond the nation state then I recommend you are the person that fucks off to North Korea or other such armpit of the world where you can focus on groupthink and worshipping a leader in the way you think others should do so. Twat.
What has the Uk too be proud of in the last thirty years?
Off the top of my head:
- The creation of the Single Market - The dominance of the City in the financial sector, and the growth of international services generally - The adoption by virtually the whole world of the reforms pioneered here under Thatcher - A cultural sector unrivalled anywhere else in the world in its breadth and quality - Superb academic and research reputation
#1: nullified by Brexit #2: undermined by Brexit #3: also cemented poverty and inequality everywhere it has been implemented (and anyway Pinochet did it first) #4: getting destroyed by Covid and inept government response #5: undermined by Brexit.
British people have been dying at six times the rate of German people, from a disease that both countries could see coming at the same time. I wanted to ask around a bit and find out why.
The short version is that there are several factors, of varying importance — but, probably, none of them is magic, or hidden, or mysterious. There’s no obvious need to posit “immunological dark matter” or illegible cultural factors. Germany was better prepared and reacted faster than Britain did, and in some ways got lucky, while making some mistakes of its own; it had a political system and, of course, politicians, which were better suited to the moment; and together, those factors added up to keeping several tens of thousand Germans alive.
The key factors, in particular, appear to have been that they took measures earlier, and that they were better at protecting the most at-risk people. Those decisions came at significant cost, economically and to people’s lives – but, I think most of us would agree now, they were worth it.
Britain has an NHS, whereas Germany has a functional healthcare system.
Germany has thousands of health care providers, who provide a good standard of medicine, but are totally disjointed.
Just a small exampe: If an angiologist wants to inform my GP about my case, he types out a letter, while I sit there (paying by the minute) and prints it out. I then need to take the printed letter to my GP, who reads it, while I'm sitting there. There is no e-communication whatsoever.
Oh and the finance side of the German heath system is a complete mess, which noone should be aspiring to.
What has the Uk too be proud of in the last thirty years?
Off the top of my head:
- The creation of the Single Market - The dominance of the City in the financial sector, and the growth of international services generally - The adoption by virtually the whole world of the reforms pioneered here under Thatcher - A cultural sector unrivalled anywhere else in the world in its breadth and quality - Superb academic and research reputation
Last thirty years Richard. Thirty years ago was 1990.
Yes, those things have happened or hugely improved since 1990.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
I had a brief encounter with a girl from Strabane, Northern Ireland.
Telling her she was a Brit wasn't a wise move either.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
It would be more constructive to try and tell Casino that having a British identity is nothing to do with the UK.
I'm quite intrigued by the @williamglenn idea of Britishness becoming something akin to Scandinavian. It endures as an identity rooted in place (GB) but post break-up of the UK no longer maps to a nation state political entity. I'd never considered it like that before and my first instincts are positive.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
Hmm. I`m going to ponder on this further. I`ve enjoyed this thread because I`ve never understood how someone can attach identity to a political project rather than an entity with national borders and democracy within. Voting to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons - I can understand that - I`m in their number - but voting remain for emotional reasons I don`t get at all because we are still European.
The most questionable dichotomy i have ever seen in print.
Fun fact: Deutschland uber alles does not mean "Germany above places like France and Spain," it means Germany rather than my own particular little bit of it like Bavaria or wherever, and was specifically written to celebrate the Zollverein (customs union). If you can get lyrical about that you can get lyrical about the EU.
Does the English right care passionately if Scotland stays in the UK?
I can honestly say that I have only ever discussed Scottish Independence in person with two people. My mother who is Scottish, and my father whose mother was Scottish. Scottish politics is essentially never a topic of conversation amongst the English, the English really don't care about what is going on in Scotland. Scottish Independence is really only a topic amongst political nerds in England.
The only person I've over spoken who got upset at the concept of Scottish independence was my granddad. He was in school during WWII but is in his 90s now, he did his national service, and he has an emotional connection to the UK that I and other generations simply do not.
This is one area where I think age is different and the idea that "the old are conservative, the young are not" is not quite the same. The generation like my granddad's that lived through WWII simply experienced something the rest of us never have and never will.
Well, I'm 40, and I'm certainly not in that generation, but I feel upset at the prospect of Scottish Independence and the end of the Union.
Being British is what I know. I don't want that taken away from me.
I'm instinctively internationalist, so the idea of creating a border, another border, is anathema. I cannot understand those who otherwise see themselves on the internationalist left being in favour of a border and another nationalism.
The national interest will be a stick used to beat the Left in Scotland for decades, or centuries, in an independent Scotland. This is how Ireland ended up with its politics dominated by two centre-right parties for a century. It would be an epic defeat. Independence will be forever, not just for the duration of Tory governments in Westminster.
From a practical point of view, as someone born in London, resident in Scotland, often working on consultancy projects in England, with an Irish wife and so having to deal with all the nonsense created by Brexit, I'm terrified by the very real practical difficulties that Scottish Independence would create for me, and many others.
I can see how the Brexit ratchet has worked, leading people to accept all manner of disadvantage that they would have rejected out of hand before. And everything will still be London's fault, for many a decade to come.
Such a waste of time and effort. All the things I don't like about Brexit, but magnified because so many people I otherwise respect are in favour of it.
The world and his or her wife went to Cornwall on holiday this summer, and Covid doesnt exist there.
So why does Sir Keir think that closing every business in the area down will help save half a dozen people in Intensive Care somewhere North West of Birmingham?
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Did you miss the earlier poll?
How badly do you think the SNP will do with Yes on only 53% and the SNP only polling 50% with Labour on a majestic 18% as the ComRes states?
The main point is that the polls are very different. Comres has the SNP on 41% for the List vote.
The polls are not very different.
The SNP being on low 40s for the list is 100% expected.
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Did you miss the earlier poll?
How badly do you think the SNP will do with Yes on only 53% and the SNP only polling 50% with Labour on a majestic 18% as the ComRes states?
The main point is that the polls are very different. Comres has the SNP on 41% for the List vote.
The polls are not very different.
The SNP being on low 40s for the list is 100% expected.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Britain isn't a country.
On that basis Germany and Italy are not countries- both being recent creations.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
Yes, Casino's reaction gives the lie to the "love Europe, hate the EU" rhetoric that was so common from Brexiteers.
I do love Europe. It's because the EU has toxified the "European" brand in its dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of federalism - including its insistence on broadcasting its nasty little propaganda through putting its viral little flag on everything and shoving European messages out on radio ads and kids initiatives - that I have such a problem with it.
We all know what "European identity" really means, including you, and it's not the broader one of a shared soft cultural inheritance that you allude to.
If it was it wouldn't boil my piss.
Do you ever wonder whether a dogmatic and fundamentalist pursuit of British nationalism might be putting people off the union?
Leave him alone. Boiling urine is a notoriously smelly and unpleasant thing to do. No wonder he is in a bad mood....
British people have been dying at six times the rate of German people, from a disease that both countries could see coming at the same time. I wanted to ask around a bit and find out why.
The short version is that there are several factors, of varying importance — but, probably, none of them is magic, or hidden, or mysterious. There’s no obvious need to posit “immunological dark matter” or illegible cultural factors. Germany was better prepared and reacted faster than Britain did, and in some ways got lucky, while making some mistakes of its own; it had a political system and, of course, politicians, which were better suited to the moment; and together, those factors added up to keeping several tens of thousand Germans alive.
The key factors, in particular, appear to have been that they took measures earlier, and that they were better at protecting the most at-risk people. Those decisions came at significant cost, economically and to people’s lives – but, I think most of us would agree now, they were worth it.
Britain has an NHS, whereas Germany has a functional healthcare system.
Germany has thousands of health care providers, who provide a good standard of medicine, but are totally disjointed.
Just a small exampe: If an angiologist wants to inform my GP about my case, he types out a letter, while I sit there (paying by the minute) and prints it out. I then need to take the printed letter to my GP, who reads it, while I'm sitting there. There is no e-communication whatsoever.
Oh and the finance side of the German heath system is a complete mess, which noone should be aspiring to.
Sorry, but it is an article of PB Tory faith that the superiority of the German health system is entirely due to it being privately run and utterly unrelated to its far higher level of funding. There is no point in arguing otherwise or presenting evidence to the contrary.
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
I think there's a case to be made for doing the first, but I don't see the political or societal will to make the sacrifices involved. I personally would plump for something along the lines of the 2nd given where we are. The government seem to be a bit lost, and going for the middle ground.
British people have been dying at six times the rate of German people, from a disease that both countries could see coming at the same time. I wanted to ask around a bit and find out why.
The short version is that there are several factors, of varying importance — but, probably, none of them is magic, or hidden, or mysterious. There’s no obvious need to posit “immunological dark matter” or illegible cultural factors. Germany was better prepared and reacted faster than Britain did, and in some ways got lucky, while making some mistakes of its own; it had a political system and, of course, politicians, which were better suited to the moment; and together, those factors added up to keeping several tens of thousand Germans alive.
The key factors, in particular, appear to have been that they took measures earlier, and that they were better at protecting the most at-risk people. Those decisions came at significant cost, economically and to people’s lives – but, I think most of us would agree now, they were worth it.
Britain has an NHS, whereas Germany has a functional healthcare system.
Germany has thousands of health care providers, who provide a good standard of medicine, but are totally disjointed.
Just a small exampe: If an angiologist wants to inform my GP about my case, he types out a letter, while I sit there (paying by the minute) and prints it out. I then need to take the printed letter to my GP, who reads it, while I'm sitting there. There is no e-communication whatsoever.
Oh and the finance side of the German heath system is a complete mess, which noone should be aspiring to.
The grass is always greener, abroad. It is interesting how enthusiasm for such things wanes when the details are looked at.
People who wax lyrical at the Scandinavian approach to tax and spending tend not to like the heavy personal taxes and the lighter corporate taxes that are a key part of it.
I should write a list of the politicians who I've encountered who want a technology development program like DARPA - except centrally directed so that it doesn't "waste money" by backing lots of ideas - just spend billions on "winners". Despite the fact that DARPA's success is precisely from backing range of ideas, with funding based on the probability of it working (as guesstimated).
Does the English right care passionately if Scotland stays in the UK?
I can honestly say that I have only ever discussed Scottish Independence in person with two people. My mother who is Scottish, and my father whose mother was Scottish. Scottish politics is essentially never a topic of conversation amongst the English, the English really don't care about what is going on in Scotland. Scottish Independence is really only a topic amongst political nerds in England.
The only person I've over spoken who got upset at the concept of Scottish independence was my granddad. He was in school during WWII but is in his 90s now, he did his national service, and he has an emotional connection to the UK that I and other generations simply do not.
This is one area where I think age is different and the idea that "the old are conservative, the young are not" is not quite the same. The generation like my granddad's that lived through WWII simply experienced something the rest of us never have and never will.
Well, I'm 40, and I'm certainly not in that generation, but I feel upset at the prospect of Scottish Independence and the end of the Union.
Being British is what I know. I don't want that taken away from me.
I'm instinctively internationalist, so the idea of creating a border, another border, is anathema. I cannot understand those who otherwise see themselves on the internationalist left being in favour of a border and another nationalism.
The national interest will be a stick used to beat the Left in Scotland for decades, or centuries, in an independent Scotland. This is how Ireland ended up with its politics dominated by two centre-right parties for a century. It would be an epic defeat. Independence will be forever, not just for the duration of Tory governments in Westminster.
From a practical point of view, as someone born in London, resident in Scotland, often working on consultancy projects in England, with an Irish wife and so having to deal with all the nonsense created by Brexit, I'm terrified by the very real practical difficulties that Scottish Independence would create for me, and many others.
I can see how the Brexit ratchet has worked, leading people to accept all manner of disadvantage that they would have rejected out of hand before. And everything will still be London's fault, for many a decade to come.
Such a waste of time and effort. All the things I don't like about Brexit, but magnified because so many people I otherwise respect are in favour of it.
"The national interest will be a stick used to beat the Left in Scotland for decades, or centuries, in an independent Scotland. This is how Ireland ended up with its politics dominated by two centre-right parties for a century. It would be an epic defeat. Independence will be forever, not just for the duration of Tory governments in Westminster."
Absolutely agreed. That's part of why I support Scottish independence. Because it will force the Scots to be grown up and act in their national interest and not just moan and blame everything on London.
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Did you miss the earlier poll?
How badly do you think the SNP will do with Yes on only 53% and the SNP only polling 50% with Labour on a majestic 18% as the ComRes states?
The main point is that the polls are very different. Comres has the SNP on 41% for the List vote.
The polls are not very different.
The SNP being on low 40s for the list is 100% expected.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Britain isn't a country.
On that basis Germany and Italy are not countries- both being recent creations.
It is not the passage of time, it's the existence of Northern Ireland.
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
I think there's a case to be made for doing the first, but I don't see the political or societal will to make the sacrifices involved. I personally would plump for something along the lines of the 2nd given where we are. The government seem to be a bit lost, and going for the middle ground.
The problem with 2 is that the economy won't survive OK and life won't return to normality for most if large numbers of people are dying. In addition to it being extremely inhumane, of course.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Why do you have to feel proud of the country you live in? Why should he leave?
Isn't nationalism like this dangerous? There is nothing special about the British or the English or the Europeans. We are all made up of individuals and have our own history that is full of really good stuff and some pretty awful stuff.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
Depressing poll for me. BOJO is optimally bad PM both for crisis management and maintaining the union. Covid has underlined inadequacy of British state in all aspects including constitution, quangos and civil service. Probably only hope is a full scale constitutional commission looking reform with federal structure. Cummings is supposed to be in favour of radical reform of the state, that is his chance for actually achieving something.
British people have been dying at six times the rate of German people, from a disease that both countries could see coming at the same time. I wanted to ask around a bit and find out why.
The short version is that there are several factors, of varying importance — but, probably, none of them is magic, or hidden, or mysterious. There’s no obvious need to posit “immunological dark matter” or illegible cultural factors. Germany was better prepared and reacted faster than Britain did, and in some ways got lucky, while making some mistakes of its own; it had a political system and, of course, politicians, which were better suited to the moment; and together, those factors added up to keeping several tens of thousand Germans alive.
The key factors, in particular, appear to have been that they took measures earlier, and that they were better at protecting the most at-risk people. Those decisions came at significant cost, economically and to people’s lives – but, I think most of us would agree now, they were worth it.
Britain has an NHS, whereas Germany has a functional healthcare system.
Germany has thousands of health care providers, who provide a good standard of medicine, but are totally disjointed.
Just a small exampe: If an angiologist wants to inform my GP about my case, he types out a letter, while I sit there (paying by the minute) and prints it out. I then need to take the printed letter to my GP, who reads it, while I'm sitting there. There is no e-communication whatsoever.
Oh and the finance side of the German heath system is a complete mess, which noone should be aspiring to.
While no system is perfect, and each has its issues, Germany has been the stand-out performer in Europe over the past six months.
Scots will continue to be British after independence.
Great Britain is an island, or which Scotland occupies around a third.
Are the Irish still British too, then?
EDIT: just being pedantic, but I like political/physical geography naming contradictions.
Geographically the Republic of Ireland is part of the British Isles, but going to Dublin, Cavan, or Ennis and telling the locals they are Brits isn't a wise move.
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
I think there's a case to be made for doing the first, but I don't see the political or societal will to make the sacrifices involved. I personally would plump for something along the lines of the 2nd given where we are. The government seem to be a bit lost, and going for the middle ground.
The problem with 2 is that the economy won't survive OK and life won't return to normality for most if large numbers of people are dying. In addition to it being extremely inhumane, of course.
Depends what you mean by large numbers. We're talking about a <1% fatality rate here. Large in absolute terms yes, but dwarfed by other causes of death such as cancer, alcoholism, obesity etc which society tolerates. Better treatment, shielding, etc will help too.
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
Yeah, just like what Westminster said goes on the shameful prorogation of 2019.
I suspect Casino has been enjoying a very liquid luncheon.
I think were are referring to two different things: the European continent and the EU (which, of course, doesn`t contain the whole of Europe anyway).
As Nick points out, I guess individuals can identify with what they like, but others may find that choice odd or illogical. Would those that say they identify with the EU say the same about the UN?
So what if someone does identify with the UN? Who cares? it affects nobody else. It certainly makes no difference to @Casino_Royale ’s life other than what he so ridiculously allows.
Crikey, I`m all for freedom of thought. But I guess it matters on a repair-the-country basis because the country is still cleaved upon leave / remain lines. Plenty has been written about "deluded leavers", but may I tentatively suggest that if there is a cohort of remainers who identify as a EU-ites, or whatever, there is some delusion on that side too?
Deluded in what sense? Nobody is denying we have left the EU and very few people are under the impression we are going to rejoin any time soon. So I ask again, how are people deluded?
Hmm. I`m going to ponder on this further. I`ve enjoyed this thread because I`ve never understood how someone can attach identity to a political project rather than an entity with national borders and democracy within. Voting to remain in the EU for pragmatic reasons - I can understand that - I`m in their number - but voting remain for emotional reasons I don`t get at all because we are still European.
That is surely just a failure of imagination. Like it, hate it, or view it with indifference, the emotional idea of a pan European identity in its current form has been around since the end of WWII.
What has the Uk too be proud of in the last thirty years?
The Olympics. And, err...
THe UK can be rightly proud of its scientic, medical and pharmaceutical research in the last 30 years. In the Brexit Years it will still be good, but not as good as it could be within the EU.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Why do you have to feel proud of the country you live in? Why should he leave?
Isn't nationalism like this dangerous? There is nothing special about the British or the English or the Europeans. We are all made up of individuals and have our own history that is full of really good stuff and some pretty awful stuff.
Have to agree, I don't really get it. I backed Brexit because I think the poor in a country should be protected from the intense competition for their jobs that makes their lives worse whilst lining the pockets of the wealthy, but the same goes for every country. Personally I am quite happy with a cosmopolitan mix culturally, but that doesn't help people trying to get by at the low end of the wage scale
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
Was your "big fear" in the 2019 General Election betting that the Tories would get close in Wansbeck but be unable to close the deal in Wakefield ?
In practice, the only thing which can really reverse the move towards increasing support for Scottish independence is an effective non-SNP political movement in Scotland. The Scottish Conservatives have a respectable level of support but only as a relatively minor party, and the antics of Boris certainly don't help. So the key is the extent to which Labour can regain some of the lost ground - after all, it's not long ago that Labour totally dominated Scottish politics. Is it unthinkable that they could revive, in a big enough way to make a difference?
There is some encouragement in that Keir Starmer seems to get reasonable levels of approval in Scotland (positive 16% in the latest poll). But, but, there is the Richard Leonard roadblock. Any Scots who want to save the Union should be striving to get that roadblock dismantled.
Seems a bit harsh, surely Leonard can simply be removed, rather than dismantled?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
Having a European identity has nothing to do with the EU
It would be more constructive to try and tell Casino that having a British identity is nothing to do with the UK.
I'm quite intrigued by the @williamglenn idea of Britishness becoming something akin to Scandinavian. It endures as an identity rooted in place (GB) but post break-up of the UK no longer maps to a nation state political entity. I'd never considered it like that before and my first instincts are positive.
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
Yup, that's the way Trump wins. Biden goes plus 8 in every state that doesn't matter.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
Yeah, just like what Westminster said goes on the shameful prorogation of 2019.
The courts just sat back, oh wait..
There was no Tory majority in 2019 so Parliament's will was upheld against the PM, now Boris has a landslide Tory majority of 80 and Parliament will vote with the PM and as our constitution is based on parliamentary sovereignty the courts will have to submit to the will of Boris and Parliament
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
Was your "big fear" in the 2019 General Election betting that the Tories would get close in Wansbeck but be unable to close the deal in Wakefield ?
Nah, my final prediction was a Tory majority of 40 to 70 plus Scotland.
My big fear in July 2019 was more that we'd see results like this in plenty of places in Britain, I think five different parties led the GB polls in 2019.
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
Was your "big fear" in the 2019 General Election betting that the Tories would get close in Wansbeck but be unable to close the deal in Wakefield ?
Nah, my final prediction was a Tory majority of 40 to 70 plus Scotland.
My big fear in July 2019 was more that we'd see results like this in plenty of places in Britain, I think five different parties led the GB polls in 2019.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
.
Or 3) Test enough people that you don't have to contact trace at all, just isolate everyone who is infected.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
You may not have a European identity. I do, as do many other people. I am Scottish, British and European. Leaving the EU hasn't stopped me feeling European, and Scotland leaving the UK won't stop me feeling British. Pre Brexit I thought that all those identities could coexist, but Brexit demonstrated that the British state was a threat to both my European and Scottish identities,by insisting on the primacy of the British identity over all others, and so I have with some sadness changed my mind on Scottish independence.
You do not successfully argue against division by creating more division.
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Interesting and thoughtful post. Perhaps people are increasingly meaning different things about identity (which would excuse Casino's trollish comment) - more about recognition of a common sense of purpose and lifestyle in the face of a scary world, less about shared history and language.
But identity per se is broad brush anyway. Casino and I speak the same language and no doubt have other points of cultural overlap, but I find him stranger than, say, Angela Merkel, and I expect he feels the same about me.
Foxy posted the trollish comment by provoking me with his European identity bollocks - he knows perfectly well it winds me up, as does his insults directed at Britain which is his country and one he should feel hugely proud of.
If he doesn't like it here he can piss off and live somewhere else. An option you'd think anyone would take off that holds this country in such low regard.
Telling people to "piss of and live somewhere else" because they criticise things about their own country is really classy.
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
.
Or 3) Test enough people that you don't have to contact trace at all, just isolate everyone who is infected.
The article touches upon some of the limitations of PCR tests - false positives, and false negatives.
I could see it working if we get a step change in the test technology though.
I reckon we'd have to do a China and forcibly isolate people in field hospitals, hotels, etc against their will if necessary. Not sure if that would help with the uptake in testing.
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
Was your "big fear" in the 2019 General Election betting that the Tories would get close in Wansbeck but be unable to close the deal in Wakefield ?
Nah, my final prediction was a Tory majority of 40 to 70 plus Scotland.
My big fear in July 2019 was more that we'd see results like this in plenty of places in Britain, I think five different parties led the GB polls in 2019.
Who was the fifth? Chuka and Soubry's no hopers?
Just checked, it was only four parties, Change UK never led in an opinion poll.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
The people of Scotland elected a government that pledged "that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will"
Whether Scotland needs England to allow it to be independent is a matter of debate. Norway has said it would recognise and admit to the EEA a self-declared independent Scotland, and there is the UN Charter declaring the right of people to self-determination. It would be messy, undemocratic and only ensure fracturing of the Union to ignore even the right for the Scottish people to consider independence, given the manifesto of the Scottish government.
What has the Uk too be proud of in the last thirty years?
Off the top of my head:
- The creation of the Single Market - The dominance of the City in the financial sector, and the growth of international services generally - The adoption by virtually the whole world of the reforms pioneered here under Thatcher - A cultural sector unrivalled anywhere else in the world in its breadth and quality - Superb academic and research reputation
Good Friday Agreement. An incredibly mature answer to a wicked problem. Also undermined by doing you-know-what you-know-how.
Louisiana is a weird place to poll. Makes me think Trafalgar have likely polled more places and the results haven't been as good for Trump as they hoped.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
You really are clinging to this aren't you. The Govt has already abandoned manifesto commitments ...... on support for farmers for example ........ and if you're relying on our PM"s word......... I have a bridge in which you might be interested.
Louisiana is a weird place to poll. Makes me think Trafalgar have likely polled more places and the results haven't been as good for Trump as they hoped.
I don't know. Emerson polled New Jersey. MRG polled Hawaii. PPP polled Delaware...
I will always be British and Scottish. I voted No to Scottish independence previously. I accepted that Leave won whilst I voted Remain, so some form of Brexit should be carried out. I cannot accept that neither the Scottish people nor the Scottish government will have any say over the direction of Scotland's future. That is no union to be valued. For that reason, I'll remain British and Scottish but not in a United Kingdom.
Welcome.
I am British English through and through - having lived in the North, Midlands and South. Possibly quite a way back there may be a bit of Welsh from the Shropshire borders! I think it is time to recognise and respect the desire for Scotland to go it’s own way. I am a unionist and think it would be better off for both sides if Scotland stayed, but rather like someone who won’t admit the relationship is over when the other person has moved out, there is no point grasping for something that is gone.
However I will not have it that Nicola Sturgeon has miraculously done better than Boris (and I don’t like either of them) when policy wise Scotland has been a cigarette paper away from the English response, and the main difference to me seems to be a sycophantic media north of the border and not so in Westminster. Imagine a world where Boris has been in on attempts to hush up sexual assault charges against Cameron, or May, where Carrie was the one deciding on the matter as Party Chair. Let’s say I think the media reaction would be slightly different.
Louisiana is a weird place to poll. Makes me think Trafalgar have likely polled more places and the results haven't been as good for Trump as they hoped.
Is there even any point in polling Louisiana whatsoever?
People from parts of the UK that have high rates of coronavirus will be prevented from travelling to Wales, First Minister Mark Drakeford has said.
I have no problem with that but not sure of his legal powers to arrest people at the border
Surely he's counting on his Big friends!? An armband and a thermos of a hot drink of your choice and you're deputised! Free tin star too! (No insurance against bullet holes mind)
I think the SNP + Greens winning a majority is as close to a cert as you'll get at the next Holyrood elections.
Obviously Sturgeon then requests a section 30 which is then refused by Johnson. That lot is very easy to game out.
What is Sturgeon's next move ? Court of Session ? Advisory referendum of her own ? An advisory referendum would likely be boycotted by unionists, the nats would almost certainly win. Does she could that then go to the Court of Session with prima facie evidence that the union of crowns is essentially done ?
Interesting article on contract tracing systems here. Touches upon the practical problems of implementing them, and the experiences of China, S. Korea, and Germany:
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors. https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
.
Or 3) Test enough people that you don't have to contact trace at all, just isolate everyone who is infected.
Yes, it's a huge failure of creative thinking that no one in politics is pursuing this option and are instead opting for economy destroying lockdowns or fumbling around with contact tracing and hoping people will stay indoors.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
The people of Scotland elected a government that pledged "that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will"
Whether Scotland needs England to allow it to be independent is a matter of debate. Norway has said it would recognise and admit to the EEA a self-declared independent Scotland, and there is the UN Charter declaring the right of people to self-determination. It would be messy, undemocratic and only ensure fracturing of the Union to ignore even the right for the Scottish people to consider independence, given the manifesto of the Scottish government.
So what, Holyrood and the Scottish government are just creations of Westminster, Madrid even shut the Catalan Parliament down for months and arrested leaders of the Catalan nationalist government when it tried to hold an illegal indyref. Legally Boris and Westminster could shut Holyrood down, more likely they just refuse indyref2 but under our constitution Westminster is sovereign and whatever the majority party at Westminster says goes
Louisiana is a weird place to poll. Makes me think Trafalgar have likely polled more places and the results haven't been as good for Trump as they hoped.
Is there even any point in polling Louisiana whatsoever?
Just a complete waste of money.
As you say, odd.
I think, despite being sarcastic about it on occasion, there is value in polling Dem and GOP strongholds.
More polling of California and New York in 2016 would have shown how many votes Clinton was piling up. Likewise a Louisiana poll with Trump only 10 ahead would give credensce to the TSE nightmare.
So what? It does not matter if Yes is on 99% in a poll Boris as PM has made quite clear he will block indyref2 while he remains PM and correctly so as 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
The people of Scotland elected a government that pledged "that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will"
Whether Scotland needs England to allow it to be independent is a matter of debate. Norway has said it would recognise and admit to the EEA a self-declared independent Scotland, and there is the UN Charter declaring the right of people to self-determination. It would be messy, undemocratic and only ensure fracturing of the Union to ignore even the right for the Scottish people to consider independence, given the manifesto of the Scottish government.
So what, Holyrood and the Scottish government are just creations of Westminster, Madrid even shut the Catalan Parliament down for months and arrested leaders of the Catalan nationalist government when it tried to hold an illegal indyref. Legally Boris and Westminster could shut Holyrood down, more likely they just refuse indyref2 but under our constitution Westminster is sovereign and whatever the majority party at Westminster says goes
When Douglas Ross said that English Tories should be less indifferent to the union, I'm not sure this is what he had in mind.
Comments
Not a lot
Trump 46% (+2)
From 10th August.
- The creation of the Single Market
- The dominance of the City in the financial sector, and the growth of international services generally
- The adoption by virtually the whole world of the reforms pioneered here under Thatcher
- A cultural sector unrivalled anywhere else in the world in its breadth and quality
- Superb academic and research reputation
Other than that, I agree entirely.
Instead of initiating robust risk assessments to confirm what businesses could safely be reopened, and could stay open, he made crass comedic comments like "it is you patriotic duty to go to the pub".
#2: undermined by Brexit
#3: also cemented poverty and inequality everywhere it has been implemented (and anyway Pinochet did it first)
#4: getting destroyed by Covid and inept government response
#5: undermined by Brexit.
Just a small exampe: If an angiologist wants to inform my GP about my case, he types out a letter, while I sit there (paying by the minute) and prints it out. I then need to take the printed letter to my GP, who reads it, while I'm sitting there. There is no e-communication whatsoever.
Oh and the finance side of the German heath system is a complete mess, which noone should be aspiring to.
51/43
And Trafalgar did a Louisiana poll @HYUFD – Trumpton coasting to victory there 18pts up.
Fun fact: Deutschland uber alles does not mean "Germany above places like France and Spain," it means Germany rather than my own particular little bit of it like Bavaria or wherever, and was specifically written to celebrate the Zollverein (customs union). If you can get lyrical about that you can get lyrical about the EU.
Being British is what I know. I don't want that taken away from me.
I'm instinctively internationalist, so the idea of creating a border, another border, is anathema. I cannot understand those who otherwise see themselves on the internationalist left being in favour of a border and another nationalism.
The national interest will be a stick used to beat the Left in Scotland for decades, or centuries, in an independent Scotland. This is how Ireland ended up with its politics dominated by two centre-right parties for a century. It would be an epic defeat. Independence will be forever, not just for the duration of Tory governments in Westminster.
From a practical point of view, as someone born in London, resident in Scotland, often working on consultancy projects in England, with an Irish wife and so having to deal with all the nonsense created by Brexit, I'm terrified by the very real practical difficulties that Scottish Independence would create for me, and many others.
I can see how the Brexit ratchet has worked, leading people to accept all manner of disadvantage that they would have rejected out of hand before. And everything will still be London's fault, for many a decade to come.
Such a waste of time and effort. All the things I don't like about Brexit, but magnified because so many people I otherwise respect are in favour of it.
So why does Sir Keir think that closing every business in the area down will help save half a dozen people in Intensive Care somewhere North West of Birmingham?
Is contract tracing now futile for the COVID-19 epidemic in most of the world? Probably yes. The infection is already too widespread for disease eradication to be feasible in most places. It might be useful in slowing the spread of the epidemic in areas where hospital resources are at risk of congestion. This benefit will come, however, at considerable costs to the privacy rights and civil liberties of traced individuals, often with no public health benefit because of testing errors.
https://inference-review.com/article/on-the-futility-of-contact-tracing
So, even if the implementation of the Nationwide system wasn't such a bodge, it might be wishful thinking to expect it to do a lot of good. To my mind there are two feasible options given where we are in the UK:
- Another 2-3 month "proper" lockdown to eradicate the virus as far as possible (schools shut, no hospitality, forcibly quarantine new arrivals at airports). Following opening up, implement contract tracing, ride roughshod over civil liberties - for the greater good. The China playbook, if you will - see also NZ and Aus.
- Open up, focus resources on shielding the vulnerable and on increasing NHS capacity and resilience. Await herd immunity, and (fingers crossed a vaccine). Deaths, but at least the economy survives ok and life returns to normality for most. More akin to Sweden.
I think there's a case to be made for doing the first, but I don't see the political or societal will to make the sacrifices involved. I personally would plump for something along the lines of the 2nd given where we are. The government seem to be a bit lost, and going for the middle ground.People who wax lyrical at the Scandinavian approach to tax and spending tend not to like the heavy personal taxes and the lighter corporate taxes that are a key part of it.
I should write a list of the politicians who I've encountered who want a technology development program like DARPA - except centrally directed so that it doesn't "waste money" by backing lots of ideas - just spend billions on "winners". Despite the fact that DARPA's success is precisely from backing range of ideas, with funding based on the probability of it working (as guesstimated).
https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1316264613139435521?s=20
Absolutely agreed. That's part of why I support Scottish independence. Because it will force the Scots to be grown up and act in their national interest and not just moan and blame everything on London.
Isn't nationalism like this dangerous? There is nothing special about the British or the English or the Europeans. We are all made up of individuals and have our own history that is full of really good stuff and some pretty awful stuff.
As the Spanish government showed with the Catalan nationalists illegal referendums can be ignored and with a Tory majority of 80 until 2024 under our constitution what Westminster says goes
You can't get more British than London!
What's the alternative?
Sadly in hindsight that might well be peak UK.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1316343510149271552?s=20
Biden does well in states like this, but the result is a small Trump victory in states like this, but Biden isn't piling up votes in places he needs to win.
The courts just sat back, oh wait..
Like it, hate it, or view it with indifference, the emotional idea of a pan European identity in its current form has been around since the end of WWII.
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1316379373000327168
My big fear in July 2019 was more that we'd see results like this in plenty of places in Britain, I think five different parties led the GB polls in 2019.
https://twitter.com/RobertCahaly/status/1316366143582502913?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1316383208255221760?s=20
https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1316381894842474498?s=20
I flirted with your position in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote, but it was a mistake. Supporting Scottish Independence will have consequences. There seem to be far too many people egging it on in order to own English Brexit supporters. Deeply irresponsible.
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1316383419304226817
I'm sure that he is following the science rather than his gut instincts.
I could see it working if we get a step change in the test technology though.
I reckon we'd have to do a China and forcibly isolate people in field hospitals, hotels, etc against their will if necessary. Not sure if that would help with the uptake in testing.
But yes, a viable 3rd option.
Whether Scotland needs England to allow it to be independent is a matter of debate. Norway has said it would recognise and admit to the EEA a self-declared independent Scotland, and there is the UN Charter declaring the right of people to self-determination. It would be messy, undemocratic and only ensure fracturing of the Union to ignore even the right for the Scottish people to consider independence, given the manifesto of the Scottish government.
That's a policy I can back wholeheartedly.
An incredibly mature answer to a wicked problem.
Also undermined by doing you-know-what you-know-how.
Plus he wants 80% furlough for everyone and self employed reimbursement of earnings
Rasmussen himself is no longer involved in Rasmussen itself, I discovered from the 538 podcast recently.
He must have sold the name and moved on.
Nate Silver rates Rasmussen the man as a pollster, but not Rasmussen the pollster.
Hope that's all clear!!
I am British English through and through - having lived in the North, Midlands and South. Possibly quite a way back there may be a bit of Welsh from the Shropshire borders! I think it is time to recognise and respect the desire for Scotland to go it’s own way. I am a unionist and think it would be better off for both sides if Scotland stayed, but rather like someone who won’t admit the relationship is over when the other person has moved out, there is no point grasping for something that is gone.
However I will not have it that Nicola Sturgeon has miraculously done better than Boris (and I don’t like either of them) when policy wise Scotland has been a cigarette paper away from the English response, and the main difference to me seems to be a sycophantic media north of the border and not so in Westminster. Imagine a world where Boris has been in on attempts to hush up sexual assault charges against Cameron, or May, where Carrie was the one deciding on the matter as Party Chair. Let’s say I think the media reaction would be slightly different.
Just a complete waste of money.
As you say, odd.
Obviously Sturgeon then requests a section 30 which is then refused by Johnson. That lot is very easy to game out.
What is Sturgeon's next move ? Court of Session ? Advisory referendum of her own ?
An advisory referendum would likely be boycotted by unionists, the nats would almost certainly win. Does she could that then go to the Court of Session with prima facie evidence that the union of crowns is essentially done ?
More polling of California and New York in 2016 would have shown how many votes Clinton was piling up. Likewise a Louisiana poll with Trump only 10 ahead would give credensce to the TSE nightmare.