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New Scottish poll from Ipsos MORI has support for Scottish independence at 58% – a record level – po

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 14 in General
New Scottish poll from Ipsos MORI has support for Scottish independence at 58% – a record level – politicalbetting.com

The end of the UK? Highest EVER recorded support for independence in Scotland (58%) pic.twitter.com/7Cengc1pfD

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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 9,405
    First.

    And first to say hello independence Scotland.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,901
    Scottish Unionism less popular than Trump is in the USA !
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,505
    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.
  • eekeek Posts: 9,405

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Can you think of a Tory that wouldn't quickly become pure poison in Scotland?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,692
    Support for Scottish independence in Scotland is now routinely much higher than support for Catalan independence in Catalonia.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,964
    eek said:

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Can you think of a Tory that wouldn't quickly become pure poison in Scotland?
    Tony Blair?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 3,691
    FPT: I thought PMQs today was pretty even. Which is a good result for Johnson.

    This is becoming an argument over targeted lockdowns versus national lockdowns.

    If the government was intending to go full lockdown at some point then surely they wouldn`t allow a narrative to develop that it is Starmer`s idea. They could have done this easily yesterday along the lines of "At last! The leader of the opposition has come off the fence and promised to support something".

    I think they will stick with targeted lockdowns. Starmer has made this even more likely. We have to establish the limits to liberty that we will tolerate in this country, and Tier 3 local lockdowns may be it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,106

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Blame everything on Westminster. It's the most compelling reason for independence IMO.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,901

    Support for Scottish independence in Scotland is now routinely much higher than support for Catalan independence in Catalonia.

    I think next time round Edinburgh could well vote for independence. My guess is the pro EU unionist voters have broken for indy now.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 6,041

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Yes, the Tories need to reinstate the system of 'the Men in Grey Suits'. That worked far better.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 49,066
    edited October 14

    Labour now saying their circuit breaker will beat the virus

    This is now the politics of it. It is good politics from Labour, as they can't lose. If the current measures work, nobody will remember, if they don't and especially if Boris has to U-Turn, they win.

    But it is clear now Labour are happy to play politics with this. Starmer is a bright man, imagine if he read a legal report that said well the suspect was somewhere between 10m and 1000m from the incident and any further evidence of their exact whereabouts will only be available after the end of any potential trial, I think when he was at the CPS he would have to decide not to go to trial with this case. But that is what he claims he believes about this SAGE propsoal.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,428
    MaxPB said:

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Blame everything on Westminster. It's the most compelling reason for independence IMO.
    Blame everything on the EU worked for UKIP.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466
    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
  • FPT: Catching up on PMQs. Not sure how long "lets blame everything on Sir Kier Cardboard" is going to work for Shagger. If his government is following the science then follow the science. If it isn't following the science then say simply and clearly that we can't/shan't/won't follow the science because x" and stick to it.

    Excited as Shagger may be about Labour voting tactics, it matters sod all to the actual crisis in hand.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 26,923
    MaxPB said:

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Blame everything on Westminster. It's the most compelling reason for independence IMO.
    Yes, of course.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 22,106

    MaxPB said:

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Blame everything on Westminster. It's the most compelling reason for independence IMO.
    Blame everything on the EU worked for UKIP.
    Definitely.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,901

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Well Boris had huge approval (Along with massive Tory VI) around when he got ill. The voters tend to be forgiving in a pandemic so long as you don't *cough Cummings* rub their noses in hypocrisy.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,692

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Johnson is to the SNP what Corbyn was to the Tories. But not enough Tories care enough about the Union for it to be a reason to get rid of him. They are primarily English nationalists these days.

    Brexit was supposed to be the beginning of the end for the EU. That's what the Brexit-backing right told us. Instead, it has put the UK's existence in significant danger. I hate the idea of it happening, but maybe it is the only way that deluded, triumphalist, right wing English nationalists will be forced to confront reality.

  • StockyStocky Posts: 3,691
    Any Scottish referendum must be followed by a confirmatory referendum after the full details of the separation are agreed. Even better, establish the separation rules in advance of any further referendum. Then Scottish people will know exactly what they are voting for.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,428
    Stocky said:

    Any Scottish referendum must be followed by a confirmatory referendum after the full details of the separation are agreed. Even better, establish the separation rules in advance of any further referendum. Then Scottish people will know exactly what they are voting for.

    :D
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,692

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Johnson is to the SNP what Corbyn was to the Tories. But not enough Tories care enough about the Union for it to be a reason to get rid of him. They are primarily English nationalists these days.

    Brexit was supposed to be the beginning of the end for the EU. That's what the Brexit-backing right told us. Instead, it has put the UK's existence in significant danger. I hate the idea of it happening, but maybe it is the only way that deluded, triumphalist, right wing English nationalists will be forced to confront reality.

    Speaking as a right wing English nationalist seeking Scotland forge its own future as our neighbours would be us "having our cake and eating it too" from Brexit. It is a reality I would love to confront.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 1,753
    Scott_xP said:
    Which is why he will never permit indyref2 on his watch. He’d likely lose, and that would be his epitaph
  • Stocky said:

    Any Scottish referendum must be followed by a confirmatory referendum after the full details of the separation are agreed. Even better, establish the separation rules in advance of any further referendum. Then Scottish people will know exactly what they are voting for.

    :D
    Whilst its good satire I'm not sure the Scottish Government would object...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,428
    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Should I say it slower: I. do. not. want. there. to. be. a. UK.

    Though the Welsh are welcome to tag along with the English if they want to as far as I'm concerned. They did for hundreds of years before the Acts of Union.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,505
    Scott_xP said:
    Well, he's hoping to hide the disastrous Brexit by wrapping it up inside the disastrous covid response. Not sure how he will hide the collapse of the union, other than by putting it off until he is editing the Telegraph.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,673
    LadyG said:

    Which is why he will never permit indyref2 on his watch. He’d likely lose, and that would be his epitaph

    It's already his epitaph
  • StockyStocky Posts: 3,691

    Stocky said:

    Any Scottish referendum must be followed by a confirmatory referendum after the full details of the separation are agreed. Even better, establish the separation rules in advance of any further referendum. Then Scottish people will know exactly what they are voting for.

    :D
    Whilst its good satire I'm not sure the Scottish Government would object...
    Then they don`t get an further referendum.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Maybe she could go into the hospitals and use her touch to heal the sick?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    And I hope Northern Ireland joins the exodus too
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    And I hope Northern Ireland joins the exodus too
    Agreed 100%.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,901

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Should I say it slower: I. do. not. want. there. to. be. a. UK.

    Though the Welsh are welcome to tag along with the English if they want to as far as I'm concerned. They did for hundreds of years before the Acts of Union.
    Wales was part of the Kingdom of England, it also votes substantially similiarly to England and doesn't have its own laws. It's going nowhere !
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,543
    Freedom! And an EU passport. What's not to like?
    Of course there are huge issues to address, around the currency and the fiscal deficit. But Scotland has loads going for it and in the long run I think can be another economically successful and confident well-run social democratic small country in the EU. Far better than being mired in this Eton Mess.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 1,753
    Scott_xP said:

    LadyG said:

    Which is why he will never permit indyref2 on his watch. He’d likely lose, and that would be his epitaph

    It's already his epitaph
    No, he will make sure any indyref2 happens under his successor. Possible Gove or Sunak, more likely Starmer in 2024.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,479
    edited October 14

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466
    Pulpstar said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Should I say it slower: I. do. not. want. there. to. be. a. UK.

    Though the Welsh are welcome to tag along with the English if they want to as far as I'm concerned. They did for hundreds of years before the Acts of Union.
    Wales was part of the Kingdom of England, it also votes substantially similiarly to England and doesn't have its own laws. It's going nowhere !
    We should go back to that.

    It works for the Cricket team.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,323
    You get the impression Sunak would go down slightly better in Scotland than Johnson. Maybe they can change the leader before the next Indy ref.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,428
    Pulpstar said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Should I say it slower: I. do. not. want. there. to. be. a. UK.

    Though the Welsh are welcome to tag along with the English if they want to as far as I'm concerned. They did for hundreds of years before the Acts of Union.
    Wales was part of the Kingdom of England, it also votes substantially similiarly to England and doesn't have its own laws. It's going nowhere !
    It does have its own laws now. Remember the The Senedd is now a full parliament.

    The "England and Wales" legal system will now slowly diverge, I guess.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Johnson is to the SNP what Corbyn was to the Tories. But not enough Tories care enough about the Union for it to be a reason to get rid of him. They are primarily English nationalists these days.

    Brexit was supposed to be the beginning of the end for the EU. That's what the Brexit-backing right told us. Instead, it has put the UK's existence in significant danger. I hate the idea of it happening, but maybe it is the only way that deluded, triumphalist, right wing English nationalists will be forced to confront reality.

    Interesting that’s there’s no room for condemnation of deluded anglophobic Scottish nationalists in your post.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,324

    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..

    Rumour is that he's off on a Gascoinesque dash up north to save the Union.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,673
    LadyG said:

    No, he will make sure any indyref2 happens under his successor. Possible Gove or Sunak, more likely Starmer in 2024.

    The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on...

    The history books will record Scotland is lost, and BoZo is the cause.

    It doesn't matter who is in post when it is formalised
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,733
    Worth a read:

    https://unherd.com/2020/10/can-britain-learn-from-germanys-covid-success/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3

    British people have been dying at six times the rate of German people, from a disease that both countries could see coming at the same time. I wanted to ask around a bit and find out why.

    The short version is that there are several factors, of varying importance — but, probably, none of them is magic, or hidden, or mysterious. There’s no obvious need to posit “immunological dark matter” or illegible cultural factors. Germany was better prepared and reacted faster than Britain did, and in some ways got lucky, while making some mistakes of its own; it had a political system and, of course, politicians, which were better suited to the moment; and together, those factors added up to keeping several tens of thousand Germans alive.

    The key factors, in particular, appear to have been that they took measures earlier, and that they were better at protecting the most at-risk people. Those decisions came at significant cost, economically and to people’s lives – but, I think most of us would agree now, they were worth it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466
    "He failed even to turn up" is a pretty damning line from Boris at PMQs against Starmer.

    How long can Starmer continue to not bother to vote for?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,964

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    And I hope Northern Ireland joins the exodus too
    Can we in Wales join too? We have been reluctant so far, however...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,692

    Johnson is pure poison in Scotland. Maybe another reason for the 1922 to ease him out to that Telegraph editor's job.

    Johnson is to the SNP what Corbyn was to the Tories. But not enough Tories care enough about the Union for it to be a reason to get rid of him. They are primarily English nationalists these days.

    Brexit was supposed to be the beginning of the end for the EU. That's what the Brexit-backing right told us. Instead, it has put the UK's existence in significant danger. I hate the idea of it happening, but maybe it is the only way that deluded, triumphalist, right wing English nationalists will be forced to confront reality.

    Speaking as a right wing English nationalist seeking Scotland forge its own future as our neighbours would be us "having our cake and eating it too" from Brexit. It is a reality I would love to confront.

    Of that I have absolutely no doubt at all.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,673

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    The Little Englanders will be delighted when it is England alone, and little in every sense...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468
    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,964

    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..

    Rumour is that he's off on a Gascoinesque dash up north to save the Union.

    A French car- blame the EU!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 14,742

    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..

    I think he will point out that Ipsos MORI are no Trafalgar.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,037

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    It's staggering and depressing. There are hints this latest round of restrictions have started questions being asked but, wow, do they get away with a lot.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,733
    edited October 14

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    I think that is taking a narrow and illogical view.

    My feel is that it’s the other way around - the mature and relatively steady approach Sturgeon has demonstrated throughout the virus crisis is fuelling the rise in support for indy. Particularly when Scots look at the chaotic capricious government the Tories have inflicted upon the UK.

    Yes, the virus crisis has hit everyone and no country has been free of mistakes. But those that have approached things with a degree of objectivity, consistency, maturity and honesty, like Sturgeon and Merkel, are emerging with more credibility than those that have been all at sea, like Bozo and Trump.

    Which is actually a consolation, if you think about it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,466

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    Does the English right care passionately if Scotland stays in the UK?

    HYUFD may want to send Marshall Wade up north to squash the rebellious Scots but other than that everyone else here seems to respect the right of the Scots to make their own choice - even if those of us who would warmly embrace it are still a minority. We're a growing minority in England though - there's only so long Scots can say they don't want to be united with the English before the feeling will become mutual.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,324

    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    'We're dong you a favour by parking our nukes in Faslane and don't you forget it!'
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,901
    kinabalu said:

    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..

    I think he will point out that Ipsos MORI are no Trafalgar.
  • glwglw Posts: 6,668

    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    They won't get any.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,230

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    And I hope Northern Ireland joins the exodus too
    Can we in Wales join too? We have been reluctant so far, however...
    It seems unlikely, but South Wales might split from North Wales.... they never seem to get on!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,479

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    Why not? The country the Queen was born into was a global superpower, and now it isn't. And yet somehow this long-awaited 'revolt against the English/Tory/rightwing (?) elite' has yet to materialize...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468
    DavidL said:

    FPT
    I believe in the United Kingdom. I think we are more together than we would be apart and that Scotland in particular would lose even more than England.
    I am proud of our history together. We of course have made many mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and in my view the balance is comfortably in credit. My late father served in the British army for more than 20 years. I was born in Cheltenham and spent some of my youth outside Winchester. I have felt more British than Scots my entire life.
    I am proud to be a citizen of a country that actually matters in the world, that has a seat on the Security Council, that has a well funded and internationally respected aid program, that stands up for human rights and civilised values. I like the fact that we actually matter.
    If Scotland opts for independence I will feel diminished. I would be a citizen of an irrelevant backwater whose views on the issues of the day are of no moment, who would be parochial and dull. No one who has ever watched the Scottish Parliament should be in any doubt about how dull it would be.
    When I go down to England I feel every bit as home as I do in Scotland. It is a part of my country. I belong there as much as here. I am still at home.
    The economic consequences of Independence would of course be calamitous but at the end of the day who you are matters more than how much you have got. There would be a heavy price to pay as the delusions of the Nationalists were laid bare but we would survive. No one should really doubt the price but people like me are not in this for the money.
    The great weakness of Better Together was that it made so little of this pride in our country and yet when I was canvassing that is what I heard repeatedly. There was great frustration in the way the campaign was fought, a frustration I shared. A Labour led campaign with a Tory government in Westminster meant that there was a great reluctance to speak up for the positive aspects of the Union. It is not a mistake that can be repeated.
    I do not think that there is anything inevitable about independence. I, for one, will do what I can to persuade my fellow citizens that we are British and proud of it. I think we will prevail, again.

    Very well said, David.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 3,763
    kinabalu said:

    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..

    I think he will point out that Ipsos MORI are no Trafalgar.
    :lol:
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,324

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Sturgeon has shown real leadership throughout the pandemic. Yes, mistakes have been made. But she doesn't run away, does her daily press briefings, gives honest accounts and tries to answer questions in a straightforward and factual manner. She is also decisive - even if making the wrong decision. I think she has earned a huge amount of respect in the last six months, and not just in Scotland. The contrast with England's leadership is huge.
    'she doesn't run away'

    Key phrase.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 1,753

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)

    However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,502

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    And simultaneously we’re going to force the EU to give us what we want through a show of believing in Britain?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,608



    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    I don't think the conduct of the English toward Scotland over the last 400 years would lead them to anticipate any benevolence.

    You'll always have the Isle of Wight.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468

    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    'We're dong you a favour by parking our nukes in Faslane and don't you forget it!'
    Well, yes. There will have to be at least a 10-15 year transition agreement before they can be safely moved somewhere else (whilst Scotland still shields itself under the rUK nuclear umbrella anyway) so expect that to be a sticking point in the negotiations.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,733

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    The holes we have fallen into - from Brexit through the virus crisis and on to breakup of the UK - are all consequences of voters throwing in their lot with someone who has never had any agenda other than to get through to tomorrow with his own personal position secure. There has been no long term vision, strategy or thinking whatsoever. It’s going to end very badly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,037
    IanB2 said:

    FPT, but on-topic for this thread:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    I think that is taking a narrow and illogical view.

    My feel is that it’s the other way around - the mature and relatively steady approach Sturgeon has demonstrated throughout the virus crisis is fuelling the rise in support for indy. Particularly when Scots look at the chaotic capricious government the Tories have inflicted upon the UK.

    Yes, the virus crisis has hit everyone and no country has been free of mistakes. But those that have approached things with a degree of objectivity, consistency, maturity and honesty, like Sturgeon and Merkel, are emerging with more credibility than those that have been all at sea, like Bozo and Trump.

    Which is actually a consolation, if you think about it.
    Independence, and the SNP, are being boosted at the moment by the Sturgeon domination of the airwaves driven by her daily press conferences. Combined with a far more deferential, and less Brexit obsessed, media who report her words of wisdom (!), whether coherent or not, in deferential terms, her already strong standing has been driven into the stratosphere. It won't always be like this, especially if about 40% of the SNP have their way and get rid of her.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 1,753
    Scott_xP said:

    LadyG said:

    No, he will make sure any indyref2 happens under his successor. Possible Gove or Sunak, more likely Starmer in 2024.

    The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on...

    The history books will record Scotland is lost, and BoZo is the cause.

    It doesn't matter who is in post when it is formalised
    Some truth in that. The irony is that Boris is, I believe, a genuinely passionate Unionist. Whereas he was only a Brexiteer by a thin margin.

    Whatever the truth, he won’t grant a referendum with polls like this. He will hand the possibly poisoned chalice to his successor.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468
    Dura_Ace said:



    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    I don't think the conduct of the English toward Scotland over the last 400 years would lead them to anticipate any benevolence.

    You'll always have the Isle of Wight.
    They seem to think they can have an easy path to a social democratic paradise via English acquiescence and EU benevolence.

    It will come crashing down into reality very quickly.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,692
    LadyG said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)

    However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.

    Oh. I agree. But that apathy also means that the English have not even begun to engage with the reality of what separation will mean. It will be an unprecedented humiliation that is almost certain to have profound real world domestic and international consequences - not least for those who presided over it.

  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 117
    I'm English (technically 1/8th Scottish, Campbell if we want to get silly), always considered myself a unionist and of course pleased about the result of the last referendum.

    Now, following the last few years I think, if I was Scottish I'd at best be on the fence about staying in. Actually, I'd be furious about being taken out the EU against the will of the people. Freedom!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,692

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    Why not? The country the Queen was born into was a global superpower, and now it isn't. And yet somehow this long-awaited 'revolt against the English/Tory/rightwing (?) elite' has yet to materialize...

    Such delicious complacency.

  • glwglw Posts: 6,668

    Does the English right care passionately if Scotland stays in the UK?

    I can honestly say that I have only ever discussed Scottish Independence in person with two people. My mother who is Scottish, and my father whose mother was Scottish. Scottish politics is essentially never a topic of conversation amongst the English, the English really don't care about what is going on in Scotland. Scottish Independence is really only a topic amongst political nerds in England.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 3,543

    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,032
    IanB2 said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    The holes we have fallen into - from Brexit through the virus crisis and on to breakup of the UK - are all consequences of voters throwing in their lot with someone who has never had any agenda other than to get through to tomorrow with his own personal position secure. There has been no long term vision, strategy or thinking whatsoever. It’s going to end very badly.
    Well that’s democracy the voters can sit back and enjoy the chaos they voted for with no recourse to change it until 2024.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,505

    I'm looking forward to seeing how @HYUFD spins this as somehow good news for Unionists at the next Holyrood election..

    Rumour is that he's off on a Gascoinesque dash up north to save the Union.

    A French car- blame the EU!
    I love "encroached"!!

    Such understatement.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 14,742
    Alistair said:

    The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.

    Like you I am completely flummoxed as to her Sky High popularity given that Scotland is basically doing as well as the UK.

    But at the same time I am not surprised. Sturgeon's communication is miles, miles better than the UK government. A completely different class. The level of empathy and understanding she communicates is grade A.
    She comes across as honest and trustworthy. When I hear her speak I get the impression that she means it and it is true (or she thinks it is). This ought to be the lowest bar a politician needs to climb over but these days it's a big plus. Boris Johnson, for example, emanates the opposite, and I guess Sturgeon benefits from the comparison.
  • Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 3,285
    If Indyref 2 does go ahead, and I'm cautiously optimistic, then I will move to Scotland and take up citizenship. I expect Scotland will rejoin the EU. Yippee!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 7,673
    LadyG said:

    Some truth in that. The irony is that Boris is, I believe, a genuinely passionate Unionist. Whereas he was only a Brexiteer by a thin margin.

    Whatever the truth, he won’t grant a referendum with polls like this. He will hand the possibly poisoned chalice to his successor.

    I think that is true, but only because I think his successor will come sooner than he hoped

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,608

    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    'We're dong you a favour by parking our nukes in Faslane and don't you forget it!'
    Well, yes. There will have to be at least a 10-15 year transition agreement before they can be safely moved somewhere else (whilst Scotland still shields itself under the rUK nuclear umbrella anyway) so expect that to be a sticking point in the negotiations.
    The MoD always has unerring tedency to save a quid so they might just park the boomers at King's Bay, GA with the US Trident boats. They have to visit there regularly anyway to be degaussed and so the crews can consume prodigious amounts of cocaine and heroin.
  • David Cameron saved the Union, Brexiteers have shattered it.

    If and when Scotland goes independent I think we'll able to kick the Brexiteers into the sea.

    A special circle of hell is reserved for 'Unionists' who backed Brexit.

    I so relate to this, so fucking relate to it.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,037
    LadyG said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)

    However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
    I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 3,285
    And the EU will ensure that Scotland receives a glorious welcome with tons of incentives. This will serve as both a welcome and a deterrent to other nations intending to pursue the myopic lunacy of the English, whom I find I increasingly dislike on a visceral level. (Not all of them. Mike's a good egg.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    Why not? The country the Queen was born into was a global superpower, and now it isn't. And yet somehow this long-awaited 'revolt against the English/Tory/rightwing (?) elite' has yet to materialize...

    Such delicious complacency.

    Again, no criticism of the Scottish nationalists.

    You are absolutely obsessed with “The Tories” and Brexit.

    The best analysis on this issue comes from @Black_Rook
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,733

    Dura_Ace said:



    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    I don't think the conduct of the English toward Scotland over the last 400 years would lead them to anticipate any benevolence.

    You'll always have the Isle of Wight.
    They seem to think they can have an easy path to a social democratic paradise via English acquiescence and EU benevolence.

    It will come crashing down into reality very quickly.
    Yes, but maybe not the central point. Increasingly it seems it is we English who need the wake up call and enforced visit to Reality Checkpoint that the breakup of the UK would probably deliver.

    We can only hope that the country that emerges from it has a more mature and realistic appraisal of its future place in the world than the fantastical nonsense and false nostalgia that has misinformed so much of it prior.
  • The way this week is going just watch Liverpool get absolutely fuckwangled 9 nil by Everton on Saturday.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,964

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    And I hope Northern Ireland joins the exodus too
    Can we in Wales join too? We have been reluctant so far, however...
    It seems unlikely, but South Wales might split from North Wales.... they never seem to get on!
    Consignment me to a lifetime of Boris Johnson then. Thanks!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468

    And the EU will ensure that Scotland receives a glorious welcome with tons of incentives. This will serve as both a welcome and a deterrent to other nations intending to pursue the myopic lunacy of the English, whom I find I increasingly dislike on a visceral level. (Not all of them. Mike's a good egg.)

    Fantasy.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 12,063
    DavidL said:

    LadyG said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)

    However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
    I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
    I think this is a real problem.

    Incidentally, one driver of Tory votes (especially LD Con waverers in the SW) is the threat of the SNP holding balance of power.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,479
    Scott_xP said:

    LadyG said:

    Some truth in that. The irony is that Boris is, I believe, a genuinely passionate Unionist. Whereas he was only a Brexiteer by a thin margin.

    Whatever the truth, he won’t grant a referendum with polls like this. He will hand the possibly poisoned chalice to his successor.

    I think that is true, but only because I think his successor will come sooner than he hoped

    Maybe one day you'll put a date on that 'sooner', just for the sake of posterity, you understand.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 85,321
    edited October 14
    DavidL said:

    LadyG said:

    Fantastic poll results.

    Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.

    I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.

    There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.

    Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...

    Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.

    I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.

    I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)

    However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
    I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
    This poll and others says otherwise.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,468
    Dura_Ace said:

    Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.

    It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.

    I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.

    An independent Scotland should expect no favours.

    'We're dong you a favour by parking our nukes in Faslane and don't you forget it!'
    Well, yes. There will have to be at least a 10-15 year transition agreement before they can be safely moved somewhere else (whilst Scotland still shields itself under the rUK nuclear umbrella anyway) so expect that to be a sticking point in the negotiations.
    The MoD always has unerring tedency to save a quid so they might just park the boomers at King's Bay, GA with the US Trident boats. They have to visit there regularly anyway to be degaussed and so the crews can consume prodigious amounts of cocaine and heroin.
    Yes, that’s a silly post.
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