I doubt that last night's disgraceful images in Liverpool will have done too much to increase support for Sir Keir's proposal of a national lockdown. It would not be surprising if people in the South West and other low covid areas are wondering why they should have to endure a national lockdown because selfish idiots in Liverpool and other northern cities could not care less how many people die or are seriously ill due to covid.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Should I say it slower: I. do. not. want. there. to. be. a. UK.
Though the Welsh are welcome to tag along with the English if they want to as far as I'm concerned. They did for hundreds of years before the Acts of Union.
Wales was part of the Kingdom of England, it also votes substantially similiarly to England and doesn't have its own laws. It's going nowhere !
^ This. Wales is a province of England. Scotland was a nation state. NI is a rump nation state. Wales hasn't ever been an independent nation.
As for all of this I am a unionist at heart. But the Union as it stands is broken and like Humpty Dumpty isn't getting put back together. My first preference would be a federal UK allowing as much freedom as nations and regions want, but I don't see much support for it. Which leads me to the breakup of the UK. Which I will regret even if I will be voting for it.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
'We're dong you a favour by parking our nukes in Faslane and don't you forget it!'
Well, yes. There will have to be at least a 10-15 year transition agreement before they can be safely moved somewhere else (whilst Scotland still shields itself under the rUK nuclear umbrella anyway) so expect that to be a sticking point in the negotiations.
The MoD always has unerring tedency to save a quid so they might just park the boomers at King's Bay, GA with the US Trident boats. They have to visit there regularly anyway to be degaussed and so the crews can consume prodigious amounts of cocaine and heroin.
I'm seeing 'We must think of the Helensburgh coke and smack dealers' as a foundation stone of Bettertogether II.
The most interesting thing about the Scottish polling is the massively high approval rating for Nicola Sturgeon, despite the utter shambles on almost everything from the exam-grade fiasco to the Covid-19 response via the Alex Salmond brouhaha. It's obviously a tribal rallying-around the figurehead.
I think that is taking a narrow and illogical view.
My feel is that it’s the other way around - the mature and relatively steady approach Sturgeon has demonstrated throughout the virus crisis is fuelling the rise in support for indy. Particularly when Scots look at the chaotic capricious government the Tories have inflicted upon the UK.
Yes, the virus crisis has hit everyone and no country has been free of mistakes. But those that have approached things with a degree of objectivity, consistency, maturity and honesty, like Sturgeon and Merkel, are emerging with more credibility than those that have been all at sea, like Bozo and Trump.
Which is actually a consolation, if you think about it.
Merkel deserves enhanced credibility, the path Germany has taken is clearly far, far superior to that of Scotland's. Sturgeon can communicate better and hide the dirt better with nice words, it's a great skill to have but the actual policies have been as bad as those in England and Wales, the numbers don't lie.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
It has and will have no obligation whatsoever other than what is in its national interest.
You put your finger on the problem with the nationalist fantasy - it will cause a lot of the issues you list, and suffering, and all the problems will be blamed on the English regardless of what transpires.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
Why not? The country the Queen was born into was a global superpower, and now it isn't. And yet somehow this long-awaited 'revolt against the English/Tory/rightwing (?) elite' has yet to materialize...
Such delicious complacency.
Again, no criticism of the Scottish nationalists.
You are absolutely obsessed with “The Tories” and Brexit.
The best analysis on this issue comes from @Black_Rook
From the moment Cameron reacted so aggressively to the referendum result in 2014 everything the Tories have done has helped revive what was a beaten SNP. That we are where we are today is down to decisions that the Tories have taken. I am sorry that makes you uncomfortable, but it is what it is.
I expect nationalists to behave in a way that seeks to create difference and enmity. I never expected it of a party that claims to be in favour of the Union. My mistake.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
Oh. I agree. But that apathy also means that the English have not even begun to engage with the reality of what separation will mean. It will be an unprecedented humiliation that is almost certain to have profound real world domestic and international consequences - not least for those who presided over it.
Separation will mean economic hardship for both sides, but much much worse for Scotland. But life will eventually go on. The Tories - ‘winds of change’ - dismantled the Empire in the 50s and 60s but went on to govern from 79-97
Anyway we might be writing the eulogies for the UK a little early. As I’ve said below I expect this indyref2 to be Starmer’s first migraine when he takes power in 2024 (which I believe he will). If he’s got any brains he’ll be looking at Federal solutions, or EEA status, to head off the Nats. It might work. Despair right now is premature.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
Plymouth is most likely.
The UK redlines will be on a solid British Isles aerial defence for both the rUN and NATO and securing of the GIUK gap.
It will also include listening stations in Scotland as well.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
This poll and others says otherwise.
The independence parties, which includes the Greens, have never won 50% of the vote in a Scottish election. Never. Of course that is at risk of changing in May but there is a long time to go until then.
I don't think the conduct of the English toward Scotland over the last 400 years would lead them to anticipate any benevolence.
You'll always have the Isle of Wight.
They seem to think they can have an easy path to a social democratic paradise via English acquiescence and EU benevolence.
It will come crashing down into reality very quickly.
Yes, but maybe not the central point. Increasingly it seems it is we English who need the wake up call and enforced visit to Reality Checkpoint that the breakup of the UK would probably deliver.
We can only hope that the country that emerges from it has a more mature and realistic appraisal of its future place in the world than the fantastical nonsense and false nostalgia that has misinformed so much of it prior.
I agree. We English will be forced to confront a few home truths that many of us are very reluctant to address. It is one of the few potential silver linings of our country coming to an end. However, the danger is that the anger the humiliation of Scottish independence will spark in many will take us to some very dark places. You can see it on here even now. Nationalism - Scottish, English or whatever - tends to have that effect.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
The holes we have fallen into - from Brexit through the virus crisis and on to breakup of the UK - are all consequences of voters throwing in their lot with someone who has never had any agenda other than to get through to tomorrow with his own personal position secure. There has been no long term vision, strategy or thinking whatsoever. It’s going to end very badly.
Well that’s democracy the voters can sit back and enjoy the chaos they voted for with no recourse to change it until 2024.
Up to a point. The clown with his majority (more paper than real, it would appear) only got 42% of the vote, after all.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
This poll and others says otherwise.
The independence parties, which includes the Greens, have never won 50% of the vote in a Scottish election. Never. Of course that is at risk of changing in May but there is a long time to go until then.
Well the SNP and Greens polled over 50% in the 2015 GE.
And the EU will ensure that Scotland receives a glorious welcome with tons of incentives. This will serve as both a welcome and a deterrent to other nations intending to pursue the myopic lunacy of the English, whom I find I increasingly dislike on a visceral level. (Not all of them. Mike's a good egg.)
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
I think NATO has seen its last new member. Scotland will probably have a similar strategic posture to the 26 counties; in PESCO, outside NATO but in PfP.
Does the English right care passionately if Scotland stays in the UK?
I can honestly say that I have only ever discussed Scottish Independence in person with two people. My mother who is Scottish, and my father whose mother was Scottish. Scottish politics is essentially never a topic of conversation amongst the English, the English really don't care about what is going on in Scotland. Scottish Independence is really only a topic amongst political nerds in England.
The only person I've over spoken who got upset at the concept of Scottish independence was my granddad. He was in school during WWII but is in his 90s now, he did his national service, and he has an emotional connection to the UK that I and other generations simply do not.
This is one area where I think age is different and the idea that "the old are conservative, the young are not" is not quite the same. The generation like my granddad's that lived through WWII simply experienced something the rest of us never have and never will.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
Why not? The country the Queen was born into was a global superpower, and now it isn't. And yet somehow this long-awaited 'revolt against the English/Tory/rightwing (?) elite' has yet to materialize...
Such delicious complacency.
Again, no criticism of the Scottish nationalists.
You are absolutely obsessed with “The Tories” and Brexit.
The best analysis on this issue comes from @Black_Rook
From the moment Cameron reacted so aggressively to the referendum result in 2014 everything the Tories have done has helped revive what was a beaten SNP. That we are where we are today is down to decisions that the Tories have taken. I am sorry that makes you uncomfortable, but it is what it is.
I expect nationalists to behave in a way that seeks to create difference and enmity. I never expected it of a party that claims to be in favour of the Union. My mistake.
Sorry, I might have missed this, but what do you mean by Cameron reacting aggressively to the referendum result in 2014?
If Indyref 2 does go ahead, and I'm cautiously optimistic, then I will move to Scotland and take up citizenship. I expect Scotland will rejoin the EU. Yippee!
I thought you were already in Scotland (not sure where I got that from).
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
This poll and others says otherwise.
The independence parties, which includes the Greens, have never won 50% of the vote in a Scottish election. Never. Of course that is at risk of changing in May but there is a long time to go until then.
The SNP won 50% in the 2015 GE, or is that not a Scottish election?
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
I think this is a real problem.
Incidentally, one driver of Tory votes (especially LD Con waverers in the SW) is the threat of the SNP holding balance of power.
It's far too early to estimate the outcome. A Lab/SNP government could well hold IndyRef2 and then the unionists win it. A Tory government remains unlikely to allow IndyRef2. The world of a few years post- Brexit and post-pandemic and post- Boris is a complete unknown at the moment, and predictions worthless.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
It has and will have no obligation whatsoever other than what is in its national interest.
You put your finger on the problem with the nationalist fantasy - it will cause a lot of the issues you list, and suffering, and all the problems will be blamed on the English regardless of what transpires.
To be blunt, it's in our national interest not to have a failed state on our northern border, and we'd have a good portion of the blame if we set Scotland up to fail by not supporting some kind of agreement on currency, protecting the 60% of Scottish exports that go to the rUK, etc.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
Why not? The country the Queen was born into was a global superpower, and now it isn't. And yet somehow this long-awaited 'revolt against the English/Tory/rightwing (?) elite' has yet to materialize...
Such delicious complacency.
Again, no criticism of the Scottish nationalists.
You are absolutely obsessed with “The Tories” and Brexit.
The best analysis on this issue comes from @Black_Rook
From the moment Cameron reacted so aggressively to the referendum result in 2014 everything the Tories have done has helped revive what was a beaten SNP. That we are where we are today is down to decisions that the Tories have taken. I am sorry that makes you uncomfortable, but it is what it is.
I expect nationalists to behave in a way that seeks to create difference and enmity. I never expected it of a party that claims to be in favour of the Union. My mistake.
Sorry, I might have missed this, but what do you mean by Cameron reacting aggressively to the referendum result in 2014?
His EVEL announcement a couple of hours after the result was declared.
It's a big poll result - but I do wonder how far it's a reaction to Johnson.
His govt has been particularly poor, and whilst I recognize that recent Tory govts don't give much cause for hope, it does feel like surely the next one won't be quite as bad.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
This poll and others says otherwise.
The independence parties, which includes the Greens, have never won 50% of the vote in a Scottish election. Never. Of course that is at risk of changing in May but there is a long time to go until then.
The SNP won 50% in the 2015 GE, or is that not a Scottish election?
Technically some of the bookies didn't pay out on that as it was 49.97%.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
Lol. Are you kidding? Scottish Indy will cause a severe recession in rUK and a decade of yet more chaos and divisiveness, just because Scotland chose to do this. And the pain will be even worse within Scotland. The English will demand their government acts with ruthless self interest. As is only natural. It will be a bitter and nasty divorce, like Brexit but worse (with the English in the role of the EU). As English firms go bust in the Borders, there will be no appetite for generosity.
It's a big poll result - but I do wonder how far it's a reaction to Johnson.
His govt has been particularly poor, and whilst I recognize that recent Tory govts don't give much cause for hope, it does feel like surely the next one won't be quite as bad.
No doubt many of those who've encouraged the EU to take a hardline with the UK in the Brexit negotiations will be outraged if England does the same with Scotland.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
Plymouth is most likely.
The UK redlines will be on a solid British Isles aerial defence for both the rUN and NATO and securing of the GIUK gap.
It will also include listening stations in Scotland as well.
I remember reading an article about the relocation of the Trident base. It really is bloody difficult, requirement for certain water depths, various approaches, and ideally away from major population centres. Then you look into the cost of moving all the infrastructure, all do-able of course but at a cost.
If Sindy happens, I can see us taking the opportunity to bow out of the Nuclear deterrence game. Especially if Labour are in.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
Oh. I agree. But that apathy also means that the English have not even begun to engage with the reality of what separation will mean. It will be an unprecedented humiliation that is almost certain to have profound real world domestic and international consequences - not least for those who presided over it.
Separation will mean economic hardship for both sides, but much much worse for Scotland. But life will eventually go on. The Tories - ‘winds of change’ - dismantled the Empire in the 50s and 60s but went on to govern from 79-97
Anyway we might be writing the eulogies for the UK a little early. As I’ve said below I expect this indyref2 to be Starmer’s first migraine when he takes power in 2024 (which I believe he will). If he’s got any brains he’ll be looking at Federal solutions, or EEA status, to head off the Nats. It might work. Despair right now is premature.
A change of government is probably the best hope the Union now has - especially if you look at the Ipsos MORI supplementaries on why Scots back independence.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
Plymouth is most likely.
The UK redlines will be on a solid British Isles aerial defence for both the rUN and NATO and securing of the GIUK gap.
It will also include listening stations in Scotland as well.
I am sure there is a mutually beneficial deal where Scotland makes concessions on security and England does the same on the economy - which has always been the equation underpinning the Union too. But closing Faslane will be a Scottish red line for sure.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Asymmetric devolution destroyed the union.
There is simply no way to put humpty dumpty together again. The union is under stress that it can't (and shouldn't) survive.
England and Scotland just don't want the same thing anymore. So we should do the mature thing, be friendly about it and move on.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
Lol. Are you kidding? Scottish Indy will cause a severe recession in rUK and a decade of yet more chaos and divisiveness, just because Scotland chose to do this. And the pain will be even worse within Scotland. The English will demand their government acts with ruthless self interest. As is only natural. It will be a bitter and nasty divorce, like Brexit but worse (with the English in the role of the EU). As English firms go bust in the Borders, there will be no appetite for generosity.
Depends on whether we have a statesman at the helm like Angela Merkel or an incompetent fool like Boris Johnson.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
I doubt that last night's disgraceful images in Liverpool will have done too much to increase support for Sir Keir's proposal of a national lockdown. It would not be surprising if people in the South West and other low covid areas are wondering why they should have to endure a national lockdown because selfish idiots in Liverpool and other northern cities could not care less how many people die or are seriously ill due to covid.
No doubt many of those who've encouraged the EU to take a hardline with the UK in the Brexit negotiations will be outraged if England does the same with Scotland.
They are not analogous situations, as your conflation of England with the rUK illustrates.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
Plymouth is most likely.
Guzz might work for the boats but you'd have to demolish half of Plymouth to build a weapons storage facility like Coulport. Possibly a positive.
I don't think the conduct of the English toward Scotland over the last 400 years would lead them to anticipate any benevolence.
You'll always have the Isle of Wight.
They seem to think they can have an easy path to a social democratic paradise via English acquiescence and EU benevolence.
It will come crashing down into reality very quickly.
Yes, but maybe not the central point. Increasingly it seems it is we English who need the wake up call and enforced visit to Reality Checkpoint that the breakup of the UK would probably deliver.
We can only hope that the country that emerges from it has a more mature and realistic appraisal of its future place in the world than the fantastical nonsense and false nostalgia that has misinformed so much of it prior.
I’m under no illusions as to the catastrophic consequences of the breakup of the UK, nor do I want it. But I’m not sure what we can do about it - even reversing Brexit wholesale and pretending it never happened wouldn’t do it.
There’s been a fundamental political divergence going on up there for over 30 years - New Labour papered over the cracks as so many Scots were in key positions in the UK Government through Scottish Labour, including the PM and Chancellor, but the GE2010 result (which was really a soft national vote in Slab strongholds) showed that unless unionism could be done on Scottish terms only there wouldn’t be any unionism.
For it to work Scotland has to accept (and England vice versa) the political legitimacy of British political decisions taken where it itself may have voted differently.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
Oh. I agree. But that apathy also means that the English have not even begun to engage with the reality of what separation will mean. It will be an unprecedented humiliation that is almost certain to have profound real world domestic and international consequences - not least for those who presided over it.
Separation will mean economic hardship for both sides, but much much worse for Scotland. But life will eventually go on. The Tories - ‘winds of change’ - dismantled the Empire in the 50s and 60s but went on to govern from 79-97
Anyway we might be writing the eulogies for the UK a little early. As I’ve said below I expect this indyref2 to be Starmer’s first migraine when he takes power in 2024 (which I believe he will). If he’s got any brains he’ll be looking at Federal solutions, or EEA status, to head off the Nats. It might work. Despair right now is premature.
A change of government is probably the best hope the Union now has - especially if you look at the Ipsos MORI supplementaries on why Scots back independence.
A change of government will only be a sticking plaster. England and Scotland will still be fundamentally different . . . and the constitutional relationship between England and Scotland will remain fundamentally imbalanced.
The Scots will know too that the English could vote for the Tories again at any time.
We're currently sleepwalking towards the end of the union. The only way to save it is radical change in the union settlement.
However this government has its head in the sand, fingers in its ears, pretending nothing is happening. They want this to be the next government's problem. I fear it will then be too late.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
Lol. Are you kidding? Scottish Indy will cause a severe recession in rUK and a decade of yet more chaos and divisiveness, just because Scotland chose to do this. And the pain will be even worse within Scotland. The English will demand their government acts with ruthless self interest. As is only natural. It will be a bitter and nasty divorce, like Brexit but worse (with the English in the role of the EU). As English firms go bust in the Borders, there will be no appetite for generosity.
Depends on whether we have a statesman at the helm like Angela Merkel or an incompetent fool like Boris Johnson.
Given recent history as a guide that suggests that the main point English politicians will be arguing about is how high the wall between England and Scotland should be.
I'm not so sure Scottish Independence is inevitable. The challenge the SNP have is they need to line up 3 ducks in a row all at the same time:
1) Control of Holyrood 2) Permission from Westminster to hold a referendum 3) Win the referendum
Now at the moment 1) is very strong for them and 3) certainly looks positive. The problem is 2). And also 2) and 3) have an inverse relationship - the more likely the referendum is to be won the less likely it is to be allowed.
Now the strategy seems to be to wait for 2024 and hope that Keir Starmer needs SNP votes to govern. The issues with that though are that if Starmer does well, he may get some Lab votes back from the SNP and it may become harder to win the referendum, and also that by Holyrood 2025 the SNP will have been in power for 18 years and will surely be running into time for a change (also Sturgeon can't go on for ever).
FPT I believe in the United Kingdom. I think we are more together than we would be apart and that Scotland in particular would lose even more than England. I am proud of our history together. We of course have made many mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and in my view the balance is comfortably in credit. My late father served in the British army for more than 20 years. I was born in Cheltenham and spent some of my youth outside Winchester. I have felt more British than Scots my entire life. I am proud to be a citizen of a country that actually matters in the world, that has a seat on the Security Council, that has a well funded and internationally respected aid program, that stands up for human rights and civilised values. I like the fact that we actually matter. If Scotland opts for independence I will feel diminished. I would be a citizen of an irrelevant backwater whose views on the issues of the day are of no moment, who would be parochial and dull. No one who has ever watched the Scottish Parliament should be in any doubt about how dull it would be. When I go down to England I feel every bit as home as I do in Scotland. It is a part of my country. I belong there as much as here. I am still at home. The economic consequences of Independence would of course be calamitous but at the end of the day who you are matters more than how much you have got. There would be a heavy price to pay as the delusions of the Nationalists were laid bare but we would survive. No one should really doubt the price but people like me are not in this for the money. The great weakness of Better Together was that it made so little of this pride in our country and yet when I was canvassing that is what I heard repeatedly. There was great frustration in the way the campaign was fought, a frustration I shared. A Labour led campaign with a Tory government in Westminster meant that there was a great reluctance to speak up for the positive aspects of the Union. It is not a mistake that can be repeated. I do not think that there is anything inevitable about independence. I, for one, will do what I can to persuade my fellow citizens that we are British and proud of it. I think we will prevail, again.
I agree. Some of what you write mirrors exactly how many of us felt about leaving the EU. A heavy price to pay, indeed. A great frustration in the way the campaign was fought. A reluctance to speak up for the positive aspects of the (European) Union. And so on.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I think you will find there is quite a lot of support in England for the scots to go their own way.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
Lol. Are you kidding? Scottish Indy will cause a severe recession in rUK and a decade of yet more chaos and divisiveness, just because Scotland chose to do this. And the pain will be even worse within Scotland. The English will demand their government acts with ruthless self interest. As is only natural. It will be a bitter and nasty divorce, like Brexit but worse (with the English in the role of the EU). As English firms go bust in the Borders, there will be no appetite for generosity.
This should have been considered when Westminster dragged Scotland out of the EU against her will.
The idea that England deliberately becomes an unpleasant neighbour to Scotland post Indy is bonkers.
They are and will continue to be a key export and import market, speak the same language and reside on the same island.
We can and will be good neighbours, friends and partners.
We will have to be good neighbours for security reasons. It is certainly not in England's interest to have a resentful concern to the north. Of course that will certainly be what happens.
And the EU will ensure that Scotland receives a glorious welcome with tons of incentives. This will serve as both a welcome and a deterrent to other nations intending to pursue the myopic lunacy of the English, whom I find I increasingly dislike on a visceral level. (Not all of them. Mike's a good egg.)
Fantasy.
That throwaway will haunt you. I've spent a lot of time on this, talking with people and it's not fantasy.
The EU want to ensure that no other state walks away so they have two aims which they won't declare openly. One is to make life extremely uncomfortable for the English. The other is to welcome back with massive incentives any part of the former united kingdom who wish to rejoin. That won't apply to England, of course, but it most certainly does to Scotland.
I've lived in outlying areas of the EU, such as poorer parts of the Canaries, and the EU were very good at looking after them. It may be paternalistic and all that but I can assure you they will be delighted to welcome Scotland back into the fold.
Their ultimate pleasure would be a thoroughly successful thriving Scotland and a miserable England - an England that serves as a warning to anyone else stupid enough to leave the most successful trading bloc on earth.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Yes there is, an identity that allowed me to travel and visit so many parts of Europe hassle free.
It allowed me to immerse myself in many cultures and wonderful experiences.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
Scotland joins NATO and benefits from the US nuclear umbrella. I would guess its armed forces would be similar to those in a country like Sweden or Belgium. I imagine the RAF may want to use Scottish airspace to defend England's northern border from Russian incursions and I am sure an arrangement could be arrived at for that. The fascinating question is where England wants to relocate its nuclear submarines to. I think Plymouth is usually seen as the most likely option? What do you see as the English red lines in this area?
Plymouth is most likely.
The UK redlines will be on a solid British Isles aerial defence for both the rUN and NATO and securing of the GIUK gap.
It will also include listening stations in Scotland as well.
I remember reading an article about the relocation of the Trident base. It really is bloody difficult, requirement for certain water depths, various approaches, and ideally away from major population centres. Then you look into the cost of moving all the infrastructure, all do-able of course but at a cost.
If Sindy happens, I can see us taking the opportunity to bow out of the Nuclear deterrence game. Especially if Labour are in.
No, we’ll definitely keep them.
You’re right it’s difficult though. It’s not insurmountable though and I know BAE and the MoD have contingency plans for this. But it will take 10-15 years to do it.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Yes there is, an identity that allowed me to travel and visit so many parts of Europe hassle free.
It allowed me to immerse myself in many cultures and wonderful experiences.
You don’t need a European identity to do those things, and any major Western nation has the same privileges.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
It can't be that real if it depends on a political institution for its existence. Why can we not be British in the same sense that the Scandinavians are Scandinavian?
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
Casino Royale is just throwing one liners out today without stopping to engage his brain or, indeed, any meaningful debate.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
Because it upsets @Casino_Royale and therefore it shouldn't be allowed.
And the EU will ensure that Scotland receives a glorious welcome with tons of incentives. This will serve as both a welcome and a deterrent to other nations intending to pursue the myopic lunacy of the English, whom I find I increasingly dislike on a visceral level. (Not all of them. Mike's a good egg.)
Fantasy.
That throwaway will haunt you. I've spent a lot of time on this, talking with people and it's not fantasy.
The EU want to ensure that no other state walks away so they have two aims which they won't declare openly. One is to make life extremely uncomfortable for the English. The other is to welcome back with massive incentives any part of the former united kingdom who wish to rejoin. That won't apply to England, of course, but it most certainly does to Scotland.
I've lived in outlying areas of the EU, such as poorer parts of the Canaries, and the EU were very good at looking after them. It may be paternalistic and all that but I can assure you they will be delighted to welcome Scotland back into the fold.
Their ultimate pleasure would be a thoroughly successful thriving Scotland and a miserable England - an England that serves as a warning to anyone else stupid enough to leave the most successful trading bloc on earth.
Your post outlines the Scottish nationalist fantasy very well.
We know Scottish nationalism is fundamentally driven by an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the English. They seem to genuinely think joining the EU will provide them with a stick with which they can beat the Auld Enemy.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I think the problem with your view on this is that for a lot of people in England, they think "England" not "Britain" or "UK". Some do think "Great Britain", but I suspect that is the Imperial "Great" rather than the geographic "Great" as in "big".
I suspect that on the day of English Independence, there will be flags and street parties
FPT I believe in the United Kingdom. I think we are more together than we would be apart and that Scotland in particular would lose even more than England. I am proud of our history together. We of course have made many mistakes but we have also done a lot of good and in my view the balance is comfortably in credit. My late father served in the British army for more than 20 years. I was born in Cheltenham and spent some of my youth outside Winchester. I have felt more British than Scots my entire life. I am proud to be a citizen of a country that actually matters in the world, that has a seat on the Security Council, that has a well funded and internationally respected aid program, that stands up for human rights and civilised values. I like the fact that we actually matter. If Scotland opts for independence I will feel diminished. I would be a citizen of an irrelevant backwater whose views on the issues of the day are of no moment, who would be parochial and dull. No one who has ever watched the Scottish Parliament should be in any doubt about how dull it would be. When I go down to England I feel every bit as home as I do in Scotland. It is a part of my country. I belong there as much as here. I am still at home. The economic consequences of Independence would of course be calamitous but at the end of the day who you are matters more than how much you have got. There would be a heavy price to pay as the delusions of the Nationalists were laid bare but we would survive. No one should really doubt the price but people like me are not in this for the money. The great weakness of Better Together was that it made so little of this pride in our country and yet when I was canvassing that is what I heard repeatedly. There was great frustration in the way the campaign was fought, a frustration I shared. A Labour led campaign with a Tory government in Westminster meant that there was a great reluctance to speak up for the positive aspects of the Union. It is not a mistake that can be repeated. I do not think that there is anything inevitable about independence. I, for one, will do what I can to persuade my fellow citizens that we are British and proud of it. I think we will prevail, again.
I agree. Some of what you write mirrors exactly how many of us felt about leaving the EU. A heavy price to pay, indeed. A great frustration in the way the campaign was fought. A reluctance to speak up for the positive aspects of the (European) Union. And so on.
Even although I was on the other side of that one I completely recognise that. No one on the remain side had the courage to make a positive case for the EU until it was too late. It was all project fear. The difficulty that the remain side faced was that Osborne and Cameron had said so much against the EU for so many years, been so patently frustrated by it and found it difficult to deal with whilst in government. But it surprised me that a positive case was not made.
Good luck to a future independent Scotland. I think it will be best for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that Scotland sets off on its own path and takes responsibility for itself going forwards.
I am a bigger believer in the simple fundamental principle that people are better off looking after themselves and taking responsibility for their own actions and that should apply to Scotland as much as the UK or individual taxpayers.
There is no UK if Scotland goes. This will be the first hard lesson for right wing English nationalists to learn.
Losing 15% of the country in exchange for untrammelled power in the remaining 85%? Some hard lesson...
Not that it's ever going to happen. Boris will never grant another referendum, and if Starmer were ever in a position to, he would be cuddly enough to swing enough Scots towards the status quo.
I think it is very sweet that right wingers believe the English public will just shrug their shoulders and carry on backing an elite that has delivered the end of the country they were born in and presided over an unprecedented international humiliation. I am not sure that's the way it will work.
I’m a unionist like you, and I hope Scotland stays. I believe partition would be an enormous waste of time and money, and, more importantly, would drive rUK back into deep recession and Scotland likely into a Depression (and maybe default)
However from my travels I get the sense most English people don’t really give a fuck. They actually do shrug. They don’t want Scotland to go but it’s a third order issue. Perhaps in the end it will be this English apathy which kills the Union.
I do fear that the drip, drip, drip of SNP whinging over the last several years has made a lot of English people wonder if it is worth the bother. They need to appreciate that the SNP still represent a minority of Scots.
I think this is a real problem.
Incidentally, one driver of Tory votes (especially LD Con waverers in the SW) is the threat of the SNP holding balance of power.
It's far too early to estimate the outcome. A Lab/SNP government could well hold IndyRef2 and then the unionists win it. A Tory government remains unlikely to allow IndyRef2. The world of a few years post- Brexit and post-pandemic and post- Boris is a complete unknown at the moment, and predictions worthless.
One constant in the ever changing last three elections has been huge distaste for the SNP in parts of England I've canvassed in. The more they whinge, the less likely this is going to go away....
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
With the exception of Malcolm (and even that is at least partly in jest) I find the Scots Nationalists on PB to be fond of the English and friendly towards us.
Strangely, it's often the hardcore English unionists who present as anti-Scottish.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I doubt that last night's disgraceful images in Liverpool will have done too much to increase support for Sir Keir's proposal of a national lockdown. It would not be surprising if people in the South West and other low covid areas are wondering why they should have to endure a national lockdown because selfish idiots in Liverpool and other northern cities could not care less how many people die or are seriously ill due to covid.
Here in Surrey the figures are rising steadily and there is plenty of support for lockdown - we see the second wave just a few weeks away. If you look at the poll showing national support for it, I think (though I've not checked) you'll find majorities for it in every region.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
The first sentence is rather arrogant. What identity one feels is a matter for the individual, surely? Why shouldn't Foxy (and many others) feel an identity with the Continent we live in if we want to?
Nope, it’s not arrogant - it’s true.
You can identify as a donkey if you want to. It doesn’t mean I should take it or you seriously.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
I'm afraid it is just that unwillingness to grant other people's view of themselves as legitimate that is one of the reasons for the likely break up of the UK.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
It has and will have no obligation whatsoever other than what is in its national interest.
You put your finger on the problem with the nationalist fantasy - it will cause a lot of the issues you list, and suffering, and all the problems will be blamed on the English regardless of what transpires.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Aren't you overlooking the great unifying project of collectively sticking two fingers up to Europe that is Brexit? Wasn't "Global Britain" supposed to create a new sense of British identity, freed from dilution from Brussels?
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Since I believe we're the same age, this relates to what I said about the difference between our grandparents generation and our own.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Agreed about Team GB – seems a very artificial construct, given that the home nations represent themselves in pretty much every other major sport.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
I'm afraid it is just that unwillingness to grant other people's view of themselves as legitimate that is one of the reasons for the likely break up of the UK.
A reality check: if Daughter’s business was closed for a month the maximum help it would get would be £1,300.
That would cover one month’s rent and part only of a month’s electricity. Bear in mind that freezers need to be kept on.
How could water, wi-if, telephone, insurance be paid for?
Let alone employees’ wages (paying for the 33% the government won’t help with), NI, pension contributions etc?
That’s a closed business in debt right there from Day 1.
And for businesses under Tier 2 restrictions, turnover is down 70%. That’s not viable.
So unless the government changes its mind over support, the hospitality sector will be - bluntly - bust long before Xmas.
I was in Tynemouth in North Tyneside (Tier 2) yesterday - the high street is full of bars and restaurants - all pretty much empty. Granted it was a Tuesday night but that isn't normal.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Wow, you're so very petty.
Not at all. I’m just happy to share home truths.
It's impossible to take you seriously with this ridiculous stance. It's the most pathetic thing I've ever read.
A reality check: if Daughter’s business was closed for a month the maximum help it would get would be £1,300.
That would cover one month’s rent and part only of a month’s electricity. Bear in mind that freezers need to be kept on.
How could water, wi-if, telephone, insurance be paid for?
Let alone employees’ wages (paying for the 33% the government won’t help with), NI, pension contributions etc?
That’s a closed business in debt right there from Day 1.
And for businesses under Tier 2 restrictions, turnover is down 70%. That’s not viable.
So unless the government changes its mind over support, the hospitality sector will be - bluntly - bust long before Xmas.
Which is going to be catastrophic. And will cost the government far more than sustaining these otherwise viable businesses would be. This isn't an airline or a premier league football club asking for cash. This is our community. Our culture.
The poll is at odds with another a few days back which showed a slight dip in Yes support to 53%. Rather get the sense that Ipsos Mori doubt the figures themselves.
Yay. I was waiting for the Justin take.
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
Well, I’m close to giving up. You can’t turn around a 16-point deficit on something like this. Scotland clearly wants to go.
It’s probably best that rUK spends most of its time working out what comes next.
I’d like to see very firm and robust pushing of our interests, particularly in the areas of defence and security policy which should be a red line.
An independent Scotland should expect no favours.
The issue is, if the rUK takes a really hard line - with no concessions on the use of sterling, refusing to allow Scottish companies preferential access to the UK internal market, and insisting Scotland takes on a share of the national debt - it'll cause huge amounts of human suffering. I will be heartbroken if Scotland votes to leave the UK, but if they decide to, I think the rUK has a moral obligation to limit the damage as much as possible by offering good terms.
Lol. Are you kidding? Scottish Indy will cause a severe recession in rUK and a decade of yet more chaos and divisiveness, just because Scotland chose to do this. And the pain will be even worse within Scotland. The English will demand their government acts with ruthless self interest. As is only natural. It will be a bitter and nasty divorce, like Brexit but worse (with the English in the role of the EU). As English firms go bust in the Borders, there will be no appetite for generosity.
This should have been considered when Westminster dragged Scotland out of the EU against her will.
It's certainly difficult to understand why English demands for more more sovereignity should be ok, whilst Scottish demands should not.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Wow, you're so very petty.
Not at all. I’m just happy to share home truths.
It's impossible to take you seriously with this ridiculous stance. It's the most pathetic thing I've ever read.
Fine with me. I’ve never taken a single post you’ve written seriously.
Brexit is a stick to beat the Unionist cause with in Scotland but it’s not the fundamental driver of Scottish nationalist sentiment, which was there (and growing) regardless.
Brexit crystallised it though. Whether Remain or Leave, the way that Brexit has been managed with complete contempt for Scottish opinion has been the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Being ignored generates resentment.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
You don’t have a European identity. There is no such thing.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
Bonkers post.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
It’s not bonkers - it’s true.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
If you find the idea of people having a "European identity" offensive, then you're the world's biggest snowflake.
Trying to say that a unified country and nation state - with a single people and hundreds of years of history - is the same as a bureaucrat confection across the channel then, yes, it is offensive.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
The UK in its current form only three decades older than the EC/EU.
Comments
I doubt that last night's disgraceful images in Liverpool will have done too much to increase support for Sir Keir's proposal of a national lockdown. It would not be surprising if people in the South West and other low covid areas are wondering why they should have to endure a national lockdown because selfish idiots in Liverpool and other northern cities could not care less how many people die or are seriously ill due to covid.
As for all of this I am a unionist at heart. But the Union as it stands is broken and like Humpty Dumpty isn't getting put back together. My first preference would be a federal UK allowing as much freedom as nations and regions want, but I don't see much support for it. Which leads me to the breakup of the UK. Which I will regret even if I will be voting for it.
https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1316354199488212994
You put your finger on the problem with the nationalist fantasy - it will cause a lot of the issues you list, and suffering, and all the problems will be blamed on the English regardless of what transpires.
I expect nationalists to behave in a way that seeks to create difference and enmity. I never expected it of a party that claims to be in favour of the Union. My mistake.
Anyway we might be writing the eulogies for the UK a little early. As I’ve said below I expect this indyref2 to be Starmer’s first migraine when he takes power in 2024 (which I believe he will). If he’s got any brains he’ll be looking at Federal solutions, or EEA status, to head off the Nats. It might work. Despair right now is premature.
In that circle of hell they get buggered senseless on an hourly basis by fantastically well hung demons wearing Michel Barnier masks.
The UK redlines will be on a solid British Isles aerial defence for both the rUN and NATO and securing of the GIUK gap.
It will also include listening stations in Scotland as well.
Nope, he didn't say that.
Don't forget David Cameron foolishly called an EU referendum which he subsequently lost.
This is one area where I think age is different and the idea that "the old are conservative, the young are not" is not quite the same. The generation like my granddad's that lived through WWII simply experienced something the rest of us never have and never will.
Edit - That's a joke before people start betting on it.
But if the Dems win Utah then I'll claim it as a tip.
His govt has been particularly poor, and whilst I recognize that recent Tory govts don't give much cause for hope, it does feel like surely the next one won't be quite as bad.
If Sindy happens, I can see us taking the opportunity to bow out of the Nuclear deterrence game. Especially if Labour are in.
There is simply no way to put humpty dumpty together again. The union is under stress that it can't (and shouldn't) survive.
England and Scotland just don't want the same thing anymore. So we should do the mature thing, be friendly about it and move on.
I have some sympathy for @DavidL and his British identity being forcibly stripped away from him by the Nationalists. It is very similar to how I feel about having my European Identity and rights removed.
There’s been a fundamental political divergence going on up there for over 30 years - New Labour papered over the cracks as so many Scots were in key positions in the UK Government through Scottish Labour, including the PM and Chancellor, but the GE2010 result (which was really a soft national vote in Slab strongholds) showed that unless unionism could be done on Scottish terms only there wouldn’t be any unionism.
For it to work Scotland has to accept (and England vice versa) the political legitimacy of British political decisions taken where it itself may have voted differently.
I think that ship sailed a long time ago.
The Scots will know too that the English could vote for the Tories again at any time.
However this government has its head in the sand, fingers in its ears, pretending nothing is happening. They want this to be the next government's problem. I fear it will then be too late.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/15/cameron-darling-referendum-english-votes-snp
1) Control of Holyrood
2) Permission from Westminster to hold a referendum
3) Win the referendum
Now at the moment 1) is very strong for them and 3) certainly looks positive. The problem is 2). And also 2) and 3) have an inverse relationship - the more likely the referendum is to be won the less likely it is to be allowed.
Now the strategy seems to be to wait for 2024 and hope that Keir Starmer needs SNP votes to govern. The issues with that though are that if Starmer does well, he may get some Lab votes back from the SNP and it may become harder to win the referendum, and also that by Holyrood 2025 the SNP will have been in power for 18 years and will surely be running into time for a change (also Sturgeon can't go on for ever).
They are and will continue to be a key export and import market, speak the same language and reside on the same island.
We can and will be good neighbours, friends and partners.
I'm still in mourning.
Since June 24th 2016 I'm like Queen Victoria after her Prince Albert died.
https://www.businessforscotland.com/49-of-english-voters-support-english-independence/
The EU want to ensure that no other state walks away so they have two aims which they won't declare openly. One is to make life extremely uncomfortable for the English. The other is to welcome back with massive incentives any part of the former united kingdom who wish to rejoin. That won't apply to England, of course, but it most certainly does to Scotland.
I've lived in outlying areas of the EU, such as poorer parts of the Canaries, and the EU were very good at looking after them. It may be paternalistic and all that but I can assure you they will be delighted to welcome Scotland back into the fold.
Their ultimate pleasure would be a thoroughly successful thriving Scotland and a miserable England - an England that serves as a warning to anyone else stupid enough to leave the most successful trading bloc on earth.
The Kingdom of Greater Yorkshire.
British identity is legitimate and a tragedy that it might be lost.
It allowed me to immerse myself in many cultures and wonderful experiences.
You’re right it’s difficult though. It’s not insurmountable though and I know BAE and the MoD have contingency plans for this. But it will take 10-15 years to do it.
We know Scottish nationalism is fundamentally driven by an inferiority complex vis-à-vis the English. They seem to genuinely think joining the EU will provide them with a stick with which they can beat the Auld Enemy.
It really is very funny.
Lots of people have a European identity – you might not, but what goes for you doesn't necessarily go for others.
I suspect that on the day of English Independence, there will be flags and street parties
Strangely, it's often the hardcore English unionists who present as anti-Scottish.
Funny old world.
70 years ago British identity was far more real than it is today. Nowadays, besides things like "Team GB" (which always feels a bit forced compared to our normal home nation support) what really lives on about 'British' identity in 2020?
British identity did exist once upon a time. I'm far from convinced it still does.
Britain is a proper and unified nation state - a real country with a real history, flag, institutions, culture and unity.
“European” identity is a confected fantasy and those who succumb to it are either pan-national globalists (who don’t recognise nation states anywhere) or have been successfully brainwashed by EU propaganda into believing they’re fabricated “citizens” since the early 1990s.
I find their conflation offensive.
That would cover one month’s rent and part only of a month’s electricity. Bear in mind that freezers need to be kept on.
How could water, wi-if, telephone, insurance be paid for?
Let alone employees’ wages (paying for the 33% the government won’t help with), NI, pension contributions etc?
That’s a closed business in debt right there from Day 1.
And for businesses under Tier 2 restrictions, turnover is down 70%. That’s not viable.
So unless the government changes its mind over support, the hospitality sector will be - bluntly - bust long before Xmas.
You can identify as a donkey if you want to. It doesn’t mean I should take it or you seriously.
https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1316319555137015810
How many gains will Labour make off the SNP come 2021?
The two aren’t remotely comparable.