What kind of majority do we forecast? I'm guessing about 50-60?
It will probably be higher tonight simply because the vote on the Bob Neill amendment won't happen until next week (and also the DUP will vote in favour).
Yeah if the Neill rebels are abstaining today then the majority might end up about the Government's original 80 which is quite brilliant.
And I suspect the Government will accept the Neill amendment as a compromise, though probably not immediately.
I mean good for Lottie I suppose but I wonder why she was chosen for the front page - slow news day at the Fail and she's vaguely good looking?
Especially as she is holding some kind of strawberry tart or cake, and above her a doctor is trying to persuade everyone to eat 800 calories a day to avoid pre-diabetes.
Everyone I know,, out with this board, is talking about testing. The lack of it. Non-political people are hearing from their friends and neighbours. This has real cut through.
Let's hope they don't allow whatever dead feline is about to drop from the skies to divert them from the shambles that is the Dido No Test and No track service.
It has to be said, since she took over things have become terrible. Whoever was running it before was able to scale up from zero to 200k in a few months. Why did we change the management?!
Eh?
She was running it and was the one to scale it up.
She was appointed a week after the government first claimed to have met the 100k per day target in May.
Eveb then that was to run the call centre rather than the testing regime. She only got put in charge of testing at a much later date.
Yep, i think Philip is mixing up test and trace with track and trace? Track and trace was what she was in charge of (which was a shambles until somebody realised they had to involve local authorities.
Yes, track and trace was the call centre, it was separate from testing until some time in July when they got merged and she took it over and the Deloitte people all went back to their day jobs.
What do they care in Cummings's lair? He's probably got a massive stockpile of food and medication in rural Durham where he will flee to when the shit hits the fan in new year.
Its not useless, its a valuable check on the power of the executive. Quite a reasoned and reasonable proposal IMHO.
And it means that any exercise of breaching international law is only done with the explicit consent of the elected Commons. Quite reasonable there too I think.
Hmm. I'm thinking of burgling your house, and taking a strictly moderate amount of stuff. However, I will only do so if my very close friend agrees.
That's a fair point about the Parliament v the Executive, quite frankly to me a better point than the international law one.
The Neill amendment deals with the Parliament v Executive issue . . . it doesn't really deal with the international law one. I'd be quite happy to see this bill go through with the Neill amendment. Require a Statutory Instrument and a Commons vote for any actions taken under this Bill, though interestingly Boris said that would happen which makes me wonder what the difference is between the Bill unamended and with the Amendment anyway?
Well, the debate has been all about the wrong thing in my view - the Bill without the Neill Amendment has to be opposed because it takes too much power into the Executive and weakens Parliamentary sovereignty.
I have no issue with the Neill Amendment - it embodies the accountability of Ministers and that is surely what Parliament has to be about. In truth, the Government should accept the Amendment and the necessary checks and balances between Executive and Legislature.
Yep - it makes no difference to the substance of the International law issue whether the potential for unilateral treaty breach is authorised by Ministers or Parliament. And in practice if Ministers came to Parliament and said - "you must authorise (probably under Statutory Instrument without debate) this because EU is doing X,Y,Z" then they aren't going to reject it. Either Parliament rejects utterly the breaking of international law or it doesn't. Giving itself the power to do so makes no difference.
And the other point is that it allows the Government to make a minor concession (for reasons stated) whilst granting itself the powers contained within the rest of the enormous and constitutionally outrageous provisions of the bill.
If the Government does accept the Neill amendment as a compromise and the rebels agree to leave it at that, and if the DUP backs the Government, then surely that would leave a majority at the end pretty close to 100? Would be hard surely for the Lords to not accept the compromise bill with that sort of majority eventually?
Though do you think the rebels would be satisfied with the Neill amendment or would some oppose this to the death even with the amendment?
Everyone I know,, out with this board, is talking about testing. The lack of it. Non-political people are hearing from their friends and neighbours. This has real cut through.
Let's hope they don't allow whatever dead feline is about to drop from the skies to divert them from the shambles that is the Dido No Test and No track service.
It has to be said, since she took over things have become terrible. Whoever was running it before was able to scale up from zero to 200k in a few months. Why did we change the management?!
Eh?
She was running it and was the one to scale it up.
She was appointed a week after the government first claimed to have met the 100k per day target in May.
Eveb then that was to run the call centre rather than the testing regime. She only got put in charge of testing at a much later date.
Yep, i think Philip is mixing up test and trace with track and trace? Track and trace was what she was in charge of (which was a shambles until somebody realised they had to involve local authorities.
Yes, track and trace was the call centre, it was separate from testing until some time in July when they got merged and she took it over and the Deloitte people all went back to their day jobs.
Downhill rapidly from then on. But Hancock knows what he's doing.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, knows that it has a cost in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
Surely it's time for Matt Hancock to get behind the podium and announce a 500k target by the end of October for testing and force the machinery of government to get there. That's how it happened last time, without the target we'd still be plodding along at 70-80k pillar 1 tests.
Pointless unless you can manage demand to match.
Well that's surely just a case of paying cloudflare. There needs to be enough excess capacity in areas that are likely outbreak spots. It feels like the government's modelling team is once again being caught short. We've know for ages that the North was likely to be the second wave epicenter and it would spread from there into Scotland and Birmingham. Why has nothing been done to up the processing capacity in these areas?
If the logjam is in the labs then is that area specific? Is it not that they're trying to limit actual testing to the limits of what can be processed in labs. The lack of availability of tests in hotspot areas is probably not a coincidence. If you're trying to limit demand, the place to reduce numbers is in the areas where they are most needed.
Yes, it's processing and logistics rather than swabs that are the issue. Both solvable, but maybe not for the people in charge. Limiting demand in places that are hotspots is surely something to be avoided, the fact that processing capacity seems to have been reached is the issue and it not being close enough to where the outbreak is worst. As I said, it feels like a failure of modelling and a halting of testing scale up since the management change.
Everyone I know,, out with this board, is talking about testing. The lack of it. Non-political people are hearing from their friends and neighbours. This has real cut through.
Let's hope they don't allow whatever dead feline is about to drop from the skies to divert them from the shambles that is the Dido No Test and No track service.
It has to be said, since she took over things have become terrible. Whoever was running it before was able to scale up from zero to 200k in a few months. Why did we change the management?!
Eh?
She was running it and was the one to scale it up.
She was appointed a week after the government first claimed to have met the 100k per day target in May.
Eveb then that was to run the call centre rather than the testing regime. She only got put in charge of testing at a much later date.
Yep, i think Philip is mixing up test and trace with track and trace? Track and trace was what she was in charge of (which was a shambles until somebody realised they had to involve local authorities.
Yes, track and trace was the call centre, it was separate from testing until some time in July when they got merged and she took it over and the Deloitte people all went back to their day jobs.
Downhill rapidly from then on. But Hancock knows what he's doing.
"But Hancock knows what he's doing."
Under current circumstances, isn't this statement potentially libelous? Can legal experts (such as P_T) please advise?
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
I'm sorry but I think the EU weaponising the province are the ones quite despicable.
I don't want to see a return to the Troubles. It may not be the biggest connection to the Troubles but I am from Warrington and was ten years old when bombs went off in Bridge Street killing a 12 year old and a 3 year old. If you think I want a return to that then you are very, very much mistaken.
Prior to the 2017 election the Irish and UK governments were working on non-intrusive ways to deal with our divergence after Brexit, it was only after May lost her majority that the EU weaponised NI and I find it disgusting.
The Good Friday Agreement was based on rejecting an all-or-nothing approach and fudging the issues. Ensuring that all sides could feel represented and their views taken into account. Not that one side is getting everything they want and the other side is shafted.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
Everyone I know,, out with this board, is talking about testing. The lack of it. Non-political people are hearing from their friends and neighbours. This has real cut through.
Let's hope they don't allow whatever dead feline is about to drop from the skies to divert them from the shambles that is the Dido No Test and No track service.
It has to be said, since she took over things have become terrible. Whoever was running it before was able to scale up from zero to 200k in a few months. Why did we change the management?!
Eh?
She was running it and was the one to scale it up.
She was appointed a week after the government first claimed to have met the 100k per day target in May.
Eveb then that was to run the call centre rather than the testing regime. She only got put in charge of testing at a much later date.
Yep, i think Philip is mixing up test and trace with track and trace? Track and trace was what she was in charge of (which was a shambles until somebody realised they had to involve local authorities.
Yes, track and trace was the call centre, it was separate from testing until some time in July when they got merged and she took it over and the Deloitte people all went back to their day jobs.
Downhill rapidly from then on. But Hancock knows what he's doing.
Aiui it was a cost saving measure as the Deloitte people don't come cheap but I'd rather have kept them on and be on the way to 400k capacity by now as was the original plan before Harding took over.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
Johnson is doing to the Tories what Trump has done to the Republicans. They are helping him trash their country’s reputation internationally as he destroys its democracy at home. And they know it. But such is their supine partisanship they don’t care.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, knows that it has a cost in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
Well said.
Boris is a disgrace. Are there no statutes for politicians for prosecuting them when they fail in their duties? Fraud or even fiduciary failure?
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
Are you for ******' real? And you and your pro Johnson tag team maintain former Remainers are deranged?
He also wants the Tories to outlaw ‘fire and rehire’ practices, whereby workers are given notice of redundancy and later rehired on worse pay and conditions, and will describe them as “not just wrong but against British values”.
The other thing about the bill is that the Government are trying to give the impression that the only circumstances in which the powers under the bill would be triggered would be if the EU tried to prevent food exports to Northern Ireland.
If that was all that was involved then the bill would say that. But it doesn't. (Leaving aside the State Aid issue - completely ignored) it allows the Government to determine ANY exports to Northern Ireland as free from the need for customs declarations. And a lot of it is almost certainly not actually in order to placate the DUP and Northern Irish businesses, but because the Government has made absolutely no preparations whatsoever for such declarations to be required or made. They're in trouble enough in sorting out the new customs regulations in the rest of the country. For Northern Ireland they haven't even started.
So it doesn't matter whether Parliament does or doesn't authorise it. They're not doing it anyway.
At some point we must conclude that Keir Starmer is lucky to be facing Boris Johnson and not somebody else.
I think that moment is coming
Possibly so. It's just as likely that the reverse is true. It's far from obvious, at least to me, that Starmer has it in him to enthuse Labour's lost supporters in the Midlands and the North.
So even if all Rebels vote Nay next vote that's still a majority of 58.
Its good to have a healthy majority this Parliament.
There are likely to be more rebels on the amendment, assuming that the government doesn't back down in some way. Still, the government's majority is sufficient to allow them to do spectacularly stupid things, yes.
Lol - you mean Miliband's whining bullshit didn't win the day?
Colour me shocked!
Literally nobody here said the Government was going to lose this.
Labour lives rent free in your head
Don't worry - Starmer will grow into losing, just like good old Ed did.
Ed is more of a decent man than Boris Johnson will ever be.
Decent but impotent - sounds like Labour, all right.
Yeah at least we have some principles, your account represents everything I despise about the Tory Party, it's a shame you give decent people like @Big_G_NorthWales and even @Philip_Thompson a bad name
At some point we must conclude that Keir Starmer is lucky to be facing Boris Johnson and not somebody else.
I think that moment is coming
Of the previous 3 PMs and LOTOs, by far the outstanding 2 were Dave and Ed. Not a great deal between them. Streets ahead of the 2 that followed for both of them. It is Ed's great tragedy. His opposite number.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
At some point we must conclude that Keir Starmer is lucky to be facing Boris Johnson and not somebody else.
I think that moment is coming
Possibly so. It's just as likely that the reverse is true. It's far from obvious, at least to me, that Starmer has it in him to enthuse Labour's lost supporters in the Midlands and the North.
Polls suggest the Labour vote has come back more strongly in the lost seats than the main voting intention.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
I'm sorry but I think the EU weaponising the province are the ones quite despicable.
I don't want to see a return to the Troubles. It may not be the biggest connection to the Troubles but I am from Warrington and was ten years old when bombs went off in Bridge Street killing a 12 year old and a 3 year old. If you think I want a return to that then you are very, very much mistaken.
Prior to the 2017 election the Irish and UK governments were working on non-intrusive ways to deal with our divergence after Brexit, it was only after May lost her majority that the EU weaponised NI and I find it disgusting.
The Good Friday Agreement was based on rejecting an all-or-nothing approach and fudging the issues. Ensuring that all sides could feel represented and their views taken into account. Not that one side is getting everything they want and the other side is shafted.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
Your last sentence shows your utter ignorance of the topic. Once Britain decided to leave the EU there has to be a border with the EU - either in Ireland, which undermines the GFA or in the Irish Sea between NI and the rest of the U.K. Them’s the choices. Pointing this out is not weaponising anything.
The government had a choice and it chose a border in the Irish Sea. Now it is blaming others for its choice and acting in a way which puts that hard worn peace at risk. Saying that it doesn’t want this doesn't mean a hill of beans when its actions undermine what it says and it ignores all warnings from this with much greater knowledge of this - like the Chief Justice of NI or the people who actually negotiated the GFA.
Everyone I know,, out with this board, is talking about testing. The lack of it. Non-political people are hearing from their friends and neighbours. This has real cut through.
Let's hope they don't allow whatever dead feline is about to drop from the skies to divert them from the shambles that is the Dido No Test and No track service.
It has to be said, since she took over things have become terrible. Whoever was running it before was able to scale up from zero to 200k in a few months. Why did we change the management?!
Eh?
She was running it and was the one to scale it up.
She was appointed a week after the government first claimed to have met the 100k per day target in May.
Eveb then that was to run the call centre rather than the testing regime. She only got put in charge of testing at a much later date.
Yep, i think Philip is mixing up test and trace with track and trace? Track and trace was what she was in charge of (which was a shambles until somebody realised they had to involve local authorities.
Yes, track and trace was the call centre, it was separate from testing until some time in July when they got merged and she took it over and the Deloitte people all went back to their day jobs.
Downhill rapidly from then on. But Hancock knows what he's doing.
Aiui it was a cost saving measure as the Deloitte people don't come cheap but I'd rather have kept them on and be on the way to 400k capacity by now as was the original plan before Harding took over.
Could have kept them on with money to spare had they just set the budget for the moonshot at a mere £99b.
He also wants the Tories to outlaw ‘fire and rehire’ practices, whereby workers are given notice of redundancy and later rehired on worse pay and conditions, and will describe them as “not just wrong but against British values”.
He wants 'fire without rehire' instead? That's a curious reading of 'British values'.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
Not compatible with a hard Brexit then.
Absolutely compatible.
Hard Brexit, soft border.
Quite obviously not. A hard border means customs, either on land or sea.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
Are you for ******' real? And you and your pro Johnson tag team maintain former Remainers are deranged?
It’s GOP stuff from Phil. Hyper-partisanship that will allow anything as long as it’s done by his side.
Hopefully the Tory revolt will be higher on amendments on the specific law-smashing clause, and Third Reading if necessary, but it would need at least another 30 to switch sides, which sadly seems unlikely from the cowed herd of sheep on the government benches.
Agreed, Ed M would be a more heavyweight Shadow Chancellor than Anneliese Dodds, he plus Thomas Symonds as Shadow Home Secretary still would be a stronger Starmer top team, though Nandy still rather lightweight as Shadow Foreign Secretary
Tearing up international law and reneging on treaty commitments, having lied to the British people, may not be the smartest move if we do end up in no deal country. It’s the lying bit that will be the killer.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
Not compatible with a hard Brexit then.
Absolutely compatible.
Hard Brexit, soft border.
Quite obviously not. A hard border means customs, either on land or sea.
Yes so have customs. My solution is quite simple: customs with self-declaration.
Just get businesses to self-declare what customs they owe and get them to pay it and move on. Exactly like businesses already self-declare what VAT, PAYE and other taxes they owe. Just rely upon self-declarations. Businesses deal with it in the way they already deal with a plethora of other taxes and no border posts because security of the island is more important than the risk of people not declaring their taxes properly.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
That's an interesting turn of phrase. My issue is less with the EU and NI aspects than the power-grab by the Executive.
The Bill empowers Ministers at the expense of Parliament and what I struggle to with is those who continually assert the sovereignty of Parliament are supine in the face of the abdication of this sovereignty to Ministers who are themselves subject to the control of No.10 and the Prime Minister.
I have no issue whatsoever with Parliament re-asserting sovereignty and taking back control from the EU but I didn't support that in order for it to cede much of that sovereignty to the Executive.
There is a need for accountability and scrutiny of the Executive and that's the function of Parliament - to hold Ministers including the Prime Minister to account.
This is typical Boris Johnson and similar to what he did as Mayor of London which was to take more powers into his office (Police, transport) and reduce his accountability to the Greater London Assembly.
That's a fair point about the Parliament v the Executive, quite frankly to me a better point than the international law one.
The Neill amendment deals with the Parliament v Executive issue . . . it doesn't really deal with the international law one. I'd be quite happy to see this bill go through with the Neill amendment. Require a Statutory Instrument and a Commons vote for any actions taken under this Bill, though interestingly Boris said that would happen which makes me wonder what the difference is between the Bill unamended and with the Amendment anyway?
Yes because we believe a single word Boris says. As a confirmed leave voter and one that would prefer a hard brexit I am a lot more concerned by the Boris power grab than I am with what the EU are doing. If he gets this bill through as far as I am concerned we no longer have a legitimate government as it has ceased to be accountable either to mp's or the judiciary
MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill
The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill
A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.
A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.
Lol - you mean Miliband's whining bullshit didn't win the day?
Colour me shocked!
Literally nobody here said the Government was going to lose this.
Labour lives rent free in your head
Don't worry - Starmer will grow into losing, just like good old Ed did.
Ed is more of a decent man than Boris Johnson will ever be.
Decent but impotent - sounds like Labour, all right.
Yeah at least we have some principles, your account represents everything I despise about the Tory Party, it's a shame you give decent people like @Big_G_NorthWales and even @Philip_Thompson a bad name
Really? You seem to have no trouble doling out extreme partisanship all day - do you imagine that it's just a one-way process, or that others might have feelings equal and opposite to your own?
"Ravnsborg has received six traffic tickets for speeding in South Dakota over the last six years. He also received tickets for a seatbelt violation and for driving a vehicle without a proper exhaust and muffler system."
Clearly Attorney Generals in South Dakota have the same respect for the rule of law as those in Westminster.
Having lied to the electorate, Johnson now needs a deal more than ever. If he gets one the lie may be forgotten. If he doesn’t, it won’t be. Neither will it be forgiven.
Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.
We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.
The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
You're unhinged !
Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.
Enough is enough!
Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
Not compatible with a hard Brexit then.
Absolutely compatible.
Hard Brexit, soft border.
Quite obviously not. A hard border means customs, either on land or sea.
Yes so have customs. My solution is quite simple: customs with self-declaration.
Just get businesses to self-declare what customs they owe and get them to pay it and move on. Exactly like businesses already self-declare what VAT, PAYE and other taxes they owe. Just rely upon self-declarations. Businesses deal with it in the way they already deal with a plethora of other taxes and no border posts because security of the island is more important than the risk of people not declaring their taxes properly.
Presumably we could trust people to fiddle the figures in a limited and specific way?
Lol - you mean Miliband's whining bullshit didn't win the day?
Colour me shocked!
Literally nobody here said the Government was going to lose this.
Labour lives rent free in your head
Don't worry - Starmer will grow into losing, just like good old Ed did.
Ed is more of a decent man than Boris Johnson will ever be.
Decent but impotent - sounds like Labour, all right.
Yeah at least we have some principles, your account represents everything I despise about the Tory Party, it's a shame you give decent people like @Big_G_NorthWales and even @Philip_Thompson a bad name
Really? You seem to have no trouble doling out extreme partisanship all day - do you imagine that it's just a one-way process, or that others might have feelings equal and opposite to your own?
Like I said, I have principles. You have none, just what's best for the Tory Party
MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill
The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill
A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.
A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.
I don't think a bill that authorises spending of public money automatically becomes a money bill. For obvious reasons.
"Ravnsborg has received six traffic tickets for speeding in South Dakota over the last six years. He also received tickets for a seatbelt violation and for driving a vehicle without a proper exhaust and muffler system."
Clearly Attorney Generals in South Dakota have the same respect for the rule of law as those in Westminster.
If they said it was a dog and got their policeman lover to cover it up... That's Line of Duty Series 1. Mother of God!!
Comments
And I suspect the Government will accept the Neill amendment as a compromise, though probably not immediately.
Do you feel reaasured?
I have no issue with the Neill Amendment - it embodies the accountability of Ministers and that is surely what Parliament has to be about. In truth, the Government should accept the Amendment and the necessary checks and balances between Executive and Legislature.
And the other point is that it allows the Government to make a minor concession (for reasons stated) whilst granting itself the powers contained within the rest of the enormous and constitutionally outrageous provisions of the bill.
Though do you think the rebels would be satisfied with the Neill amendment or would some oppose this to the death even with the amendment?
Keir will grow into the role.
Ed M for Shadow Chancellor, me thinks
https://twitter.com/GeorgePeretzQC/status/1305587532118323200
Apart from that...
I think that moment is coming
Under current circumstances, isn't this statement potentially libelous? Can legal experts (such as P_T) please advise?
https://twitter.com/SilentKW/status/1305545673555628032?s=20
I don't want to see a return to the Troubles. It may not be the biggest connection to the Troubles but I am from Warrington and was ten years old when bombs went off in Bridge Street killing a 12 year old and a 3 year old. If you think I want a return to that then you are very, very much mistaken.
Prior to the 2017 election the Irish and UK governments were working on non-intrusive ways to deal with our divergence after Brexit, it was only after May lost her majority that the EU weaponised NI and I find it disgusting.
The Good Friday Agreement was based on rejecting an all-or-nothing approach and fudging the issues. Ensuring that all sides could feel represented and their views taken into account. Not that one side is getting everything they want and the other side is shafted.
That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.
Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
What relevance does the girl with the cake have? Is she supposed to be illustrating the diabetes story or the drinking one?
Bizarre.
Noes 263
Colour me shocked!
Labour lives rent free in your head
So even if all Rebels vote Nay next vote that's still a majority of 58.
Its good to have a healthy majority this Parliament.
Boris is a disgrace. Are there no statutes for politicians for prosecuting them when they fail in their duties? Fraud or even fiduciary failure?
If that was all that was involved then the bill would say that. But it doesn't. (Leaving aside the State Aid issue - completely ignored) it allows the Government to determine ANY exports to Northern Ireland as free from the need for customs declarations. And a lot of it is almost certainly not actually in order to placate the DUP and Northern Irish businesses, but because the Government has made absolutely no preparations whatsoever for such declarations to be required or made. They're in trouble enough in sorting out the new customs regulations in the rest of the country. For Northern Ireland they haven't even started.
So it doesn't matter whether Parliament does or doesn't authorise it. They're not doing it anyway.
Not a great deal between them.
Streets ahead of the 2 that followed for both of them.
It is Ed's great tragedy. His opposite number.
Hard Brexit, soft border.
Not being Corbyn is a big draw factor
The government had a choice and it chose a border in the Irish Sea. Now it is blaming others for its choice and acting in a way which puts that hard worn peace at risk. Saying that it doesn’t want this doesn't mean a hill of beans when its actions undermine what it says and it ignores all warnings from this with much greater knowledge of this - like the Chief Justice of NI or the people who actually negotiated the GFA.
All eyes on the whips office for now.
https://twitter.com/Ajzionts/status/1305540415957991427?s=19
Oh.
Johnson won his big majority and we're all paying for it, those opposed to this action must constructively ensure we can defeat him in the next GE
Just get businesses to self-declare what customs they owe and get them to pay it and move on. Exactly like businesses already self-declare what VAT, PAYE and other taxes they owe. Just rely upon self-declarations. Businesses deal with it in the way they already deal with a plethora of other taxes and no border posts because security of the island is more important than the risk of people not declaring their taxes properly.
https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/09/11/promises-promises-then-and-now/
MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill
The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill
A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.
A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.
If they said it was a dog and got their policeman lover to cover it up...
That's Line of Duty Series 1.
Mother of God!!